The New Rules of Rideshare: SB 623 and the Future of Uber and Lyft Injury Claims

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Welcome to the New Rules of Ride Share, Senate
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Bill 623 and the Future of Uber and Lyft Injury
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Claims. I'm Philip Vondra, Chair of the Beverly
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Hills Bar Association's Personal Injury Law Section.
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I'm delighted to introduce our speaker, Doris
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Chang, shareholder at Walk Up Melodia, Kelly
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and Schoenberger, who specializes in complex.
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injuries caused by third -party negligence and
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has obtained multi -million -dollar verdicts
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and settlements on behalf of disabled plaintiffs,
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including a $15 million verdict and two $19 million
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settlements. Ranked among the top 10 lawyers
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in Northern California, she was named best lawyer
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of the year in 2017, profiled on the cover of
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Super Lawyers Magazine in 2025. and received
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the inaugural Obota Champion of Justice Award
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in 2022. The 106th president of the Bar Association
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of San Francisco and a fellow of the American
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College of Trial Lawyers. She has trained trial
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lawyers and judges nationally and internationally
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and co -authored the Rudder Group California
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Practice Guide on personal injury. And now let's
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get started. Thank you so much, Philip. I so
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appreciate being here. And thank you, Beverly
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Hills Bar Association for welcoming me. I am
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the incoming president for the American Board
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of Trial Advocates National. And it's really
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fun to talk about the different things that our
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practice covers and the ways that it affects
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us as individuals and our continued pursuit for
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democracy. And the Seventh Amendment right to
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a civil jury trial. So those are all the things
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that I know are important to you. They're important
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to me. And with the Uber initiative, this was
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the incredible strain, I think, of the year 2026.
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And it started in November 2025. I'm going to
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share at least a PowerPoint with you. And we
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won't live in it the entire time. I do want to
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cover a few things just so that you have something
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to focus on here and there as we kind of go about
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this. So, you know, what happened? How do we
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get to this place? And I'm going to give you
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a little historical background, certainly from
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my perspective, because I think you don't know
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where we're going if you don't know where we've
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been. And where have we been? And let's take
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us back, you know, auto crashes have been around
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forever. We all know that, and we've experienced
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that. in our friends, our families, and as practitioners,
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I'm sure so many of you have been asked from
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some time or another, can you help out my friend?
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You know, those may be some of the smaller cases.
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And by smaller, I mean, you know, cases where
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there is a recoverable injury in terms of the
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physical recovery. You know, somebody got hurt,
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and maybe it is back injuries, uh maybe it is
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a concussion, maybe it is something like that
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where you know okay this is not the permanent
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type of injury you know that will disable you
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but a majority of the cases in California look
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just like that and people have rights. I remember
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being um with a judge one time who said how many
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of you here feel like there are too many lawsuits
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and there were a number of people who raised
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their hand and I was so proud of that judge who
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said well You know, one of the reasons that people
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bring lawsuits is because, well, or one of the
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reasons that you may think there are so many
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lawsuits is actually because in the United States,
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we have a lot of rights. That's not something
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that all countries can boast about. But we do.
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And so it is up to the individuals to decide
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whether they want to exercise that right. Your
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right to a First Amendment, your right to uh
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the fourth amendment your rights under the you
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know sixth and seventh as we said so we have
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rights we have tort rights uh and i'm going to
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take us back at least to 1988 and i mentioned
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this time frame because this was when colossus
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was developed and i wish i could see all of you
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here and ask you how many of you know what colossus
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is and uh this is a database so at a certain
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point in time looking at all the lawsuits, looking
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at the fact that you could, even in 1988, before
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we get to AI big data, there was computerized
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data collection about claims. And part of the
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reason for that was to start taking away the
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lack of uniformity in how people evaluated cases.
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And it was really on the claim side. Because
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before Colossus, people were relying upon claims
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adjusters who knew the area, knew the locality,
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knew how verdicts and judgments were being decided.
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And so one of the things about big data and any
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big data, today we are dealing with big data
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all the time. I'm just gonna take this down for
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a moment, but the reason that matters is how
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do we get to where we are? Okay, so when you
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looked at the big data, how did the claims adjusting
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side begin to uniform or make consistent the
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way that claims are being adjusted or settled,
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resolved. And metrics came out. What are the
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medical bills? What are the special damages?
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What factor of those economic damages became
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how jurors evaluated the non -economic damages?
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And there were patterns, just as you're gonna
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see patterns anytime that you put anything today
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into chat GPT. And so interestingly, those metrics
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became the foundation for how cases got evaluated.
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And anytime that somebody said, well, I've got
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to evaluate this case on the defense side. If
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you're the plaintiff's lawyer, Mr. and Mrs. plaintiff's
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lawyer, I want you to give me the medical bills.
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I want you to give me the wage loss. And very
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little then was about, well, what are the actual
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non -economic damages? that then became something
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that was tailored in, I would say less specific,
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you know, and unless you have like some horrific
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burn case, orthopedic cases, you know, soft tissue
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injury cases became standardized in a way. And
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interestingly, and even 2010, Allstate was one
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of the companies that was subject to lawsuit
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because they were in violation of regulations,
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right? Insurance regulations. And they paid quite
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a big sum of money at that time because they
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were alleged to have misused the software. So
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isn't that interesting? Because what did you
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see start to happen over the course of time?
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You started to see in California for us here,
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Howell, and that was a 2011 decision. And what
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did it do? It minimized or it reduced what you
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could actually introduce at trial. about medical
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bills, because guess what? People were evaluating
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non -economic damages based on your medical bills.
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And that was one way that certainly from the
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defense side it was, how do I get these numbers
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down? I don't fault the defense side for that.
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You must all now know I'm a plaintiff's attorney.
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Everybody actually has to do their job and each
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of us has a role. And I would say it's the right
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thing to do, right? This is why an adversarial
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system works. So I don't want any of you to think
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that I'm just advocating for one side. But here
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was Howell. And Howell, like I said, California
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Supreme Court decision, which now said you can't
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introduce more than what the insurance company
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paid. And as you all remember, in the course
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of 2011 up to today, we've had various iterations
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of what we can use for future values, for past
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values. And so I'm gonna, I think all of you
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do know how, as I just explained it is, you know,
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you can only introduce the amount that was actually
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paid or incurred. That was the language that
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we saw. And so if it wasn't your insurance company,
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I mean, medical insurance company paying for
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it, and you were then paying out of pocket, that
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was the amount incurred. Okay, so now let's talk
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about the Pebley case. PEBLY is a 2018 decision.
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So seven years later, what has been the outgrowth
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of, again, trying to make sure that there isn't
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one side taking advantage of the circumstance?
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I mean, because let's be realistic about what
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metrics are being used. If you are... uh older
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than 65 probably older than 63 you've got medicare
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the medicare we know is paying a lot less than
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say the person who's 40 years old using blue
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shield blue cross or uh say the person who's
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uninsured altogether and so again if people are
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using those numbers as the metric well then you've
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got really uh aggressive plane of lawyers who
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said well okay, why should my client actually
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use health insurance? Why should you rely, let's
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say on Medi -Cal, which we know is a public system
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where, and I don't know, so many of you have
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tried these cases. I've tried cases where we've
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known in MenMal, for instance, where I've got
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a disabled baby that then grows into childhood
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and needs services. You know, if they're on Medi
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-Cal, The backup for being able to get some of
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those services is so bad that you wish you could
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just pay out of pocket and find somebody immediately.
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Those are real challenges that I think people
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have to respect and understand. And so when you
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look at Pebley, don't look at it just as a jaundice
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eye or with skepticism that, oh, these are just
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plaintiff's lawyer trying to inflate the number.
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In the Pebley case, the plaintiff went out of
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network meaning they did have health insurance,
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but instead of using their health insurance,
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they got their care out of network. And the question
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that came up in that case was, if they had insurance
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and they chose not to use the insurance, could
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they then submit the full amount of the bill,
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the medical bills? Was that fair? Was that reasonable?
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And the court of appeal, And this was called
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a pebbly versus Santa Clara organics 22 Cal app
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fifth 1266 where the court of appeal held that
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if the person went out of network and did pay
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the full amount of the bill, they were treated
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as uninsured within the meaning of how within
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the meaning of how in its progeny, I should say.
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And so that was really important because that
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did say, all right, if the plaintiff didn't want
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to resort to, you know, whoever was in their
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network, which let's be fair, may not always
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be the best doctors. And if the plaintiff wanted
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a better doctor, they could actually seek out
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that care, pay the full rate, and get reimbursed
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in their third party claim. So that's what Pebley
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gave. uh license too and let me say that um the
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next case that came about just for your educational
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ceo lee uh the kadir versus uh figaroa this is
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a 2021 decision 67 cal app fifth 790 uh which
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same thing stuck to pebbly and said that's controlling.
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Look to howls at that's controlling. And evidence
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of a medical bill is relevant to prove or disprove
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the paid or incurred prong of past medical damages
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if it can be established the bill is actually
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paid or incurred. Okay, so how do we now get
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to the Uber situation? You've got the history
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of that. How do we get to, as I say, the incredible
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stress for everybody doing auto cases in 2026
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well in 2025 uh uber launched an initiative and
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say i'm going to take you just to here was the
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original ballot provision and filed november
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2025 and the uh basic there if you take a moment
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to read it um you'll see there's an entire explanation
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of why they wanted to push the bill across But
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backed by Uber, basically, they formed this other
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little entity, a more affordable California that
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sponsored to put the campaign out there on this
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initiative. And they pursued the angle on this
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was the California Constitution to protect victims
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of automobile accidents from self -dealing billboard
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attorneys. It was pretty targeted, pretty specific.
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Not pretty, I should just drop the disclaimer
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on that. It was very specific. And it called
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out a segment of plaintiff lawyers and called
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them the self -dealing billboard attorneys. And
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let me say, what did it purport to do? Actually,
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before I get to this part, what was the goal?
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So when you do read that, the fight on that became
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okay. you know what there are these billboard
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lawyers out there who are self -dealing and now
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you've got people not using insurance at all
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and they are getting kickbacks from their doctors
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so you know the theory was that hey these plaintiff
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lawyers are trying to increase the medical bills
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by sending you to doctors that will only go on
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a lean basis. And in fact, the lawyers are getting
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a kickback from the doctors. And so that is the
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self dealing part. And, you know, I would say
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through the course of this fight, there was an
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acknowledgement that that was happening. I mean,
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you know, I would say this campaign, it didn't
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make it up. There were places where for sure
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this was happening. And so this bill was targeted
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at getting rid of that self -dealing. And the
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angle, as I said, it took was to cap the fees
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and medical bills at 25%. The flip of that was
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what was advertised. With this new bill, accident
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victims, car crash accident victims, would get
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75%. OK, that really is untenable. We'll get
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into the reasons why in a moment. The other thing
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that it was aiming to do was to set all of these
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medical rates at the Medi -Cal Medicare numbers,
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which we know was the lowest denominator. And
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as I said, and I'm sure there's was the strategy
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behind this was they knew this was gonna be a
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beginning place, not necessarily an ending place.
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I would say you would find with these incredibly
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smart and strategic people They knew this was
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not the end game, but it was certainly the beginning.
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And it was not just the medical bills and stuff
00:15:51.529 --> 00:15:53.490
that we're talking about. What else was out there
00:15:53.490 --> 00:15:56.509
for Uber? Why did Uber care? And there were some
00:15:56.509 --> 00:15:58.429
things that weren't talked about in this bill,
00:15:58.450 --> 00:16:01.049
but were on the horizon and that completely mattered.
00:16:01.309 --> 00:16:06.070
Uber sex assault cases. That gained so much traction.
00:16:06.529 --> 00:16:09.960
There were horrific stories. uh in the media
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.659
and that were completely true about people women
00:16:13.659 --> 00:16:16.779
taking ubers who were getting assaulted by the
00:16:16.779 --> 00:16:22.480
drivers uh fake uber drivers rolling up not having
00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:25.460
a way to verify that this was the person that
00:16:25.460 --> 00:16:28.620
was supposed to be catching the ride and uh women
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:32.000
getting violated raped be very plain about it
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:34.679
and that was on the horizon and that was not
00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:38.289
good for uber what else was coming down the pipe
00:16:38.490 --> 00:16:41.990
uh for people in the bay area uh and and you
00:16:41.990 --> 00:16:43.529
know i think in southern california have you
00:16:43.529 --> 00:16:47.149
seen waymo i've seen waymo in san francisco uh
00:16:47.149 --> 00:16:49.649
they were roaming the streets for at least two
00:16:49.649 --> 00:16:52.169
to three years that was huge competition for
00:16:52.169 --> 00:16:55.049
uber isn't it huge competition for them now how
00:16:55.049 --> 00:16:58.309
many women would rather be in a waymo where there's
00:16:58.309 --> 00:17:02.009
no driver versus an uber where there is a driver
00:17:02.009 --> 00:17:04.210
and whether you have to make awkward conversation
00:17:04.210 --> 00:17:08.210
or be fearful that uh you'll be assaulted either
00:17:08.210 --> 00:17:11.089
way it eliminated that but where was uber going
00:17:11.089 --> 00:17:12.950
to go with that and what was the concern and
00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:15.309
worry so let me just suggest there were much
00:17:15.309 --> 00:17:18.269
bigger things out there this was like a small
00:17:18.269 --> 00:17:22.250
piece of the the fight and i would say just to
00:17:22.250 --> 00:17:24.450
have awareness about that matters for all of
00:17:24.450 --> 00:17:26.490
us when we think about where are we going in
00:17:26.490 --> 00:17:28.769
the future what's going to be happening in the
00:17:28.769 --> 00:17:31.250
future because Robo taxi is the future. It's
00:17:31.250 --> 00:17:33.920
actually the present. You know, currently in
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:36.079
San Francisco, Waymo can't get on the freeways
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.900
or highways, but it is all throughout the city.
00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.289
And I will say they've done a very good job of
00:17:42.289 --> 00:17:45.450
mapping out the city so that, you know, there
00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:49.390
are plenty of problems with it, but knowing the
00:17:49.390 --> 00:17:52.470
streets and not hitting anything so far. has
00:17:52.470 --> 00:17:56.210
actually been a big plus for Waymo. And that's
00:17:56.210 --> 00:18:00.529
a big downturn for Lyft and Uber. And so I would
00:18:00.529 --> 00:18:02.789
just say Uber because they backed it. But really,
00:18:02.970 --> 00:18:06.089
for the rideshare group and the people that were
00:18:06.089 --> 00:18:08.990
profiting from that, this has been a big concern.
00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:13.269
And so where was the attack? The attack was on
00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:16.690
the low hanging fruit, which was these auto cases.
00:18:16.789 --> 00:18:18.970
And where can you make a dent in that? Because
00:18:18.970 --> 00:18:22.289
remember, this initiative covered all auto cases.
00:18:22.490 --> 00:18:24.809
It didn't matter what kind. It didn't matter
00:18:24.809 --> 00:18:28.410
that it was specifically Uber or Lyft. It was
00:18:28.410 --> 00:18:32.289
any car accident. And that really was a big threat
00:18:32.289 --> 00:18:36.349
to the plaintiff's bar. And I would not just
00:18:36.349 --> 00:18:37.769
say just to the lawyers, because I would say
00:18:37.769 --> 00:18:40.029
it's not just about the lawyers. And this is
00:18:40.029 --> 00:18:42.869
where I do want to talk about the fees here.
00:18:43.089 --> 00:18:45.329
I mean, I focused a lot on the medical, because
00:18:45.329 --> 00:18:47.069
that's one of the metrics for getting the numbers
00:18:47.069 --> 00:18:51.269
down. But the other big attack, and we saw many
00:18:51.269 --> 00:18:55.150
of this in the 1890s, when there was the other
00:18:55.150 --> 00:18:58.769
round of attack on attorney's fees. And that
00:18:58.769 --> 00:19:01.690
isn't about attorneys. That is still about the
00:19:01.690 --> 00:19:04.559
right to choose counsel. Because you'll notice
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.960
in all of these types of legislation, there is
00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:13.309
no cap on the defense side. There is no cap on
00:19:13.309 --> 00:19:18.809
how much insurance carriers can spend on defending
00:19:18.809 --> 00:19:22.950
a case against any plaintiff, not on the attorney
00:19:22.950 --> 00:19:26.029
side or the cost side. And so what happens? The
00:19:26.029 --> 00:19:27.970
same thing that generally happens that we're
00:19:27.970 --> 00:19:30.349
all worried about. Are you run by corporations?
00:19:30.670 --> 00:19:33.490
Are corporations so heavily leveraged because
00:19:33.490 --> 00:19:36.049
they have the money that they can choose lawyers
00:19:36.049 --> 00:19:39.200
and they can outspend you? You know, if anybody
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.720
here has a case against a corporation, I won't
00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:44.099
name the corporations, but you know there are
00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:45.720
certain corporations. You were in it for the
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:47.440
long haul. If you have filed the lawsuit, you're
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.759
in it for four years because you will spend two
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:53.279
years fighting over discovery. Is that fair?
00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.500
Is that right? It's an adversarial system. Is
00:19:56.500 --> 00:19:59.319
it a good use of time? we all have evaluated
00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:01.579
feelings about that. And so I'm going to say
00:20:01.579 --> 00:20:06.099
that this whole fee cap thing is a big issue
00:20:06.099 --> 00:20:10.539
because the people who cannot make those decisions
00:20:10.539 --> 00:20:14.240
are going to be the plaintiffs themselves. So
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:19.240
what is it about contingency fee? And I want
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.079
to talk about that a little bit. Why is there
00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:25.140
an existence of contingency fee? And I always
00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:27.609
explain this to you know, people that I meet
00:20:27.609 --> 00:20:32.069
my clients or that nobody ever socked away money
00:20:32.509 --> 00:20:36.210
to hire a personal injury lawyer. That's not
00:20:36.210 --> 00:20:40.000
how we live our lives. You know, you save up
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:43.119
money for a house. You save up money for your
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:46.480
car. You save up money for college. Nobody saves
00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:48.519
up money on the one day that you might need to
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:51.180
hire an attorney. So the reality is that money
00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:54.440
is not there. All right. So how do you make sure
00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:58.039
that you can get representation Well, a model
00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:00.539
for that is on a contingency because the only
00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:03.059
place that you may be able to get that money
00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:07.869
is through the third party defendant who perhaps
00:21:07.869 --> 00:21:10.470
has the funds to pay you in the settlement in
00:21:10.470 --> 00:21:14.950
our compensatory system. And so what it does
00:21:14.950 --> 00:21:17.630
for the plaintiffs is allow a payment system
00:21:17.630 --> 00:21:20.769
for representation, but it's deferred. And that
00:21:20.769 --> 00:21:22.869
does mean that the attorney on the plaintiff's
00:21:22.869 --> 00:21:26.460
side is bearing all the risk and the cost. You're
00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:28.579
not taking your fees now. Guess what? The defense
00:21:28.579 --> 00:21:31.670
attorney gets paid hourly. Although I will say
00:21:31.670 --> 00:21:34.470
there are Kaiser cases, but even there, Kaiser
00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:36.349
cases on the MedMal defense side, they get a
00:21:36.349 --> 00:21:38.630
flat rate, but they're getting paid up front.
00:21:39.210 --> 00:21:41.670
They're not having to defer. The risk for the
00:21:41.670 --> 00:21:44.190
plaintiff's attorney is that it is being deferred.
00:21:44.250 --> 00:21:47.109
And what happens if the settlement is not what
00:21:47.109 --> 00:21:49.470
it's originally projected to be? We all know
00:21:49.470 --> 00:21:51.690
cases get better over time. Sometimes they get
00:21:51.690 --> 00:21:54.289
worse over time. And so what does that mean?
00:21:54.369 --> 00:21:57.910
And I'm just saying that to understand how the
00:21:57.910 --> 00:22:00.990
model works is so that my friends on the other
00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:03.809
side of the aisle aren't criticizing it. It is
00:22:03.809 --> 00:22:06.150
a way for people to be represented. I think all
00:22:06.150 --> 00:22:08.210
of us as lawyers have to believe that you are
00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:11.509
better off represented than unrepresented. So
00:22:11.509 --> 00:22:14.569
that attack on the attorney's fees really does
00:22:14.569 --> 00:22:20.359
matter. The other thing that this, and I'll come
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:27.079
back to the PowerPoint now. Okay, so here was
00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:30.000
what was the proposed deal on the attorney's
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.000
fees, as I just talked about the 75%, but it
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.200
had a couple of other hooks in it that when you
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.220
made the deal, because generally under our business
00:22:40.220 --> 00:22:46.720
and professions code 6147, it is negotiated by
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:50.240
contract. And so everybody has free will. You
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.440
could actually charge a third, you could charge
00:22:53.630 --> 00:22:57.410
uh 40 you could charge 50 I mean those are ranges
00:22:57.410 --> 00:22:59.890
that we have seen in our profession but it's
00:22:59.890 --> 00:23:02.329
by contract and it may be based upon how difficult
00:23:02.329 --> 00:23:05.130
the cases or various other factors but this was
00:23:05.130 --> 00:23:07.549
intended to cut that out and actually make it
00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:11.150
a misdemeanor if the attorneys uh tried to affect
00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:15.019
the rule so this was the proposal then limitations
00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:18.960
on the medical expenses was listed out okay unpaid
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:23.480
past medical expenses was 125 % of the fee for
00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:25.500
service Medicare reimbursement. And actually,
00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:29.559
that's too low. If you did your own search, just
00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:32.599
using our regular Google, not even going into
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:35.240
your wonderful AI capacity, you'll find that
00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:38.099
number is too low. That won't actually reimburse
00:23:38.099 --> 00:23:40.039
all the doctors. Is that fair to the doctors?
00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:44.839
Are they going to fully get paid? So these are,
00:23:45.140 --> 00:23:47.539
as I said before, Uber certainly knew what they
00:23:47.539 --> 00:23:51.369
were doing. They are not novices. at the legislation
00:23:51.369 --> 00:23:53.789
negotiation. And these are beginning points.
00:23:54.069 --> 00:23:58.410
So you could see what plaintiffs and plaintiff's
00:23:58.410 --> 00:24:00.829
attorneys were trying to overcome. But here's
00:24:00.829 --> 00:24:02.529
the other thing that is always so troublesome.
00:24:02.750 --> 00:24:05.490
Okay, let's change the burden of proof now. That
00:24:05.490 --> 00:24:08.630
was another, you know, hook in all of this. And
00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:11.069
then for future medical expenses, private insurance
00:24:11.069 --> 00:24:16.259
coverage, there was defined rules for that. Okay,
00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:18.839
there were a couple of other things, as we said,
00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:22.829
hooked in to this and one way to make it more
00:24:22.829 --> 00:24:24.930
palpable, take it out on the sexual harassment
00:24:24.930 --> 00:24:29.559
claims or sexual assault claims. And that was
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.279
interesting, right? It's like if these this was
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.250
a multi frontal attack, recognizing, as I said,
00:24:37.289 --> 00:24:39.529
that all of you do now, there are multiple issues
00:24:39.529 --> 00:24:43.190
in play in the tort realm. And this was only
00:24:43.190 --> 00:24:45.549
dealing with one small part to affect the rest
00:24:45.549 --> 00:24:49.480
of it. And so then you had a head on collision,
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:55.059
seriously, a humongous battle. And so CAOC, the
00:24:55.059 --> 00:24:57.900
consumer attorneys of California came out very
00:24:57.900 --> 00:25:02.039
aggressively strong and gave examples of how
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:04.839
this doesn't work. I mean, you can imagine we've
00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:10.039
got $100 ,000 defendants have let's say $100
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:14.599
,000 auto policy, but somebody got hit in a crosswalk.
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:19.400
is thrown out over the in the street has multiple
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.680
orthopedic injuries is in the hospital for let's
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:26.519
say a week. You know that the medical bills are
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:30.480
way in excess of $100 ,000. You know that anything
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.299
above that $100 ,000 is not collectible. And
00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:35.980
yet this would apply. That's a huge problem.
00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:41.119
Right? Is that fair for any of the parties involved?
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.460
Does that what would effectively happen? As we
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:47.369
know is like with the medical malpractice cases
00:25:47.369 --> 00:25:51.630
in 1975 when the cap for pain and suffering damages
00:25:51.630 --> 00:25:54.930
got hit at 250 ,000 remain there as all of you
00:25:54.930 --> 00:25:59.750
remember until the year 2023 what happened you
00:25:59.750 --> 00:26:01.430
had a whole bunch of lawyers who didn't take
00:26:01.430 --> 00:26:03.490
those cases and that's what it was intended to
00:26:03.490 --> 00:26:06.150
do all right and so is this actually going to
00:26:06.150 --> 00:26:10.569
affect the ability for people to exercise their
00:26:10.569 --> 00:26:15.000
right if they get hit And there isn't an attorney
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.619
who wants to take that case because for all the
00:26:18.619 --> 00:26:21.500
work that has to get done, it may not be worth
00:26:21.500 --> 00:26:26.859
it. But that's a way to legislate a label on
00:26:26.859 --> 00:26:29.759
something that, like I say, the legislature would
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.440
call it frivolous, even though that right should
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:36.529
be as equal as any other right. And so this is
00:26:36.529 --> 00:26:42.890
the head -on fight that we were getting. For
00:26:42.890 --> 00:26:45.829
the ads, it was a slugfest. I will tell you,
00:26:45.990 --> 00:26:48.750
one of my partners, Doug Seltzer, who is the
00:26:48.750 --> 00:26:51.349
current president of the Consumer Attorneys of
00:26:51.349 --> 00:26:54.250
California, he was in the thick of it. And every
00:26:54.250 --> 00:26:57.930
which way he looked, it was, okay, there's an
00:26:57.930 --> 00:27:03.450
Uber with a blimp flying across one of the plaintiff
00:27:03.450 --> 00:27:09.009
organization conferences. And really, it got
00:27:09.009 --> 00:27:14.190
so ugly. and the plaintiff's attorneys really
00:27:14.190 --> 00:27:19.349
did band together because it was a humongous
00:27:19.349 --> 00:27:26.230
fight and there was no way to beat out Uber's
00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:32.769
available resources. What is Uber's market cap
00:27:32.769 --> 00:27:35.690
today? This is a billion dollar corporation.
00:27:36.029 --> 00:27:38.849
What does this mean about what they can spend?
00:27:39.250 --> 00:27:41.970
And so the plan of lawyers really did have to
00:27:41.970 --> 00:27:45.970
get together and find the same level of war chest
00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:50.789
because this was a fight on the American public,
00:27:50.829 --> 00:27:53.670
certainly in the California public consciousness,
00:27:53.990 --> 00:27:58.190
which is to make lawyers look bad. We know from
00:27:58.190 --> 00:28:01.569
the experience of trying to get the cap lifted
00:28:01.569 --> 00:28:05.470
on the medical malpractice cases, micro, you
00:28:05.470 --> 00:28:08.490
know, gosh, what was that? I can't even remember,
00:28:08.630 --> 00:28:12.569
was that 2014 or 2017? I honestly can't remember.
00:28:12.950 --> 00:28:16.849
But the big problem was the ads were about greedy
00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:19.450
plaintiff lawyers. And so this was not going
00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:21.529
to happen again, particularly on this fight.
00:28:21.869 --> 00:28:25.069
And there are many, many more lawyers handling
00:28:25.069 --> 00:28:29.180
auto crash cases than there are handling med
00:28:29.180 --> 00:28:32.599
mal. And so the massive amount of money that
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:37.440
had to be in organized coalesce in order just
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:41.640
to have a media presence. And that is so disappointing
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:46.759
and so painful to say that, but it's both sides
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:53.190
trying to equalize or democratize the amounts
00:28:53.190 --> 00:28:56.630
of money that are being spent in the media. And
00:28:56.630 --> 00:28:59.630
I would say that is what happened. And so countless
00:28:59.630 --> 00:29:02.190
hours and time in the war chest that was having
00:29:02.190 --> 00:29:04.710
to be raised on the plaintiff's side, You know,
00:29:04.789 --> 00:29:07.470
the plaintiffs are not personally injured. I
00:29:07.470 --> 00:29:09.670
mean, they're not corporations. They don't have
00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:13.609
market caps of like, you know, billions of dollars.
00:29:13.730 --> 00:29:18.430
And so that was a huge, huge organization. And
00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:21.009
I would say hats off to consumer attorneys of
00:29:21.009 --> 00:29:25.329
California, the Alliance Against Corporate Abuse
00:29:25.329 --> 00:29:27.829
campaign. I mean, the number of people who came
00:29:27.829 --> 00:29:31.269
to this fight really so that and I don't want
00:29:31.269 --> 00:29:33.950
to suggest that there was you know these big
00:29:33.950 --> 00:29:38.349
winners or losers on this and this is our adversarial
00:29:38.349 --> 00:29:41.049
system at work and sometimes it costs a lot of
00:29:41.049 --> 00:29:43.809
money and so the things that it cost and where
00:29:43.809 --> 00:29:45.930
the plaintiffs and I went to work on spending
00:29:45.930 --> 00:29:48.230
that money as I told you there was a lot of collateral
00:29:48.230 --> 00:29:52.329
issues going into play it wasn't just about auto
00:29:52.329 --> 00:29:55.569
crash cases this was about the uber sex assault
00:29:55.569 --> 00:29:58.599
cases this was about accountability. And that
00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:01.180
was, as I said, these people are incredibly smart,
00:30:01.180 --> 00:30:05.000
sophisticated, with, you know, much, much bigger
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.880
issues than, as I say, just the single car crash
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:12.539
case. And so these were the big three that were
00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:15.980
proposed initiatives, fighting back in the tort
00:30:15.980 --> 00:30:19.079
arena. And you know what, no one can feel bad
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:22.119
about this fight. I had a my personal feeling
00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:24.099
is that, you know, if you're on the defense side,
00:30:24.140 --> 00:30:26.299
your feelings can't be hurt. It's like, well,
00:30:26.390 --> 00:30:29.329
Yeah, you launched a massive fight at a peripheral
00:30:29.329 --> 00:30:32.410
issue. It was not the head on issue. And that's
00:30:32.410 --> 00:30:36.230
I think something that everybody on this here
00:30:36.230 --> 00:30:39.309
should at least recognize that this was a multi
00:30:39.309 --> 00:30:45.170
front fight. And when you consider how much the
00:30:45.170 --> 00:30:49.250
rideshare companies are profiting from it. why
00:30:49.250 --> 00:30:52.329
should the individuals living in the city, you
00:30:52.329 --> 00:30:55.690
know, driving on the highways be penalized? Or
00:30:55.690 --> 00:30:58.829
should their rights be reduced so that we uplift
00:30:58.829 --> 00:31:03.730
the rights of people who are already making a
00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:07.589
lot of money? So that was the full, full blown
00:31:07.589 --> 00:31:12.930
out fight. And I won't get too far deep into,
00:31:13.009 --> 00:31:15.349
you know, there was a big compromise ultimately.
00:31:15.869 --> 00:31:21.509
And that did come about in June. So the compromise,
00:31:22.869 --> 00:31:25.630
it is now codified in, and you'll see it come
00:31:25.630 --> 00:31:28.609
into effect, uh, three, three, three, three point
00:31:28.609 --> 00:31:32.390
nine, uh, by January, 2027, the fight that I
00:31:32.390 --> 00:31:34.890
mean, and this is, was kind of fun. I was watching
00:31:34.890 --> 00:31:36.789
my partner Doug constantly on the cell phone.
00:31:36.849 --> 00:31:38.470
We would have lunch together at a restaurant
00:31:38.470 --> 00:31:40.990
and you know, he was texting the next news reporter
00:31:40.990 --> 00:31:42.990
about what they would have to say in response
00:31:42.990 --> 00:31:45.210
to something, you know, that was being thrown
00:31:45.210 --> 00:31:48.109
about to the governor. I mean, the, this was
00:31:48.109 --> 00:31:54.099
in every which way. a full, full aggressive battle
00:31:54.099 --> 00:31:58.319
of philosophies about, you know, pragmatism,
00:31:58.660 --> 00:32:01.039
about how the law should work for everyone. And
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:05.200
I do mean that. I mean, I do really feel like
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.519
when we look at what the law is supposed to do,
00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:10.119
it's supposed to create a harmonious way for
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:13.599
all of us to be able to live together. And this
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:15.420
is why you do have an adversarial system. Why
00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:18.519
I believe in an adversarial system because If
00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:22.019
it were all up to one side or one party, we would
00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:25.960
end up in, you know, a dictatorship with incredibly
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:28.619
unhappy 50 % of the people. It just wouldn't
00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:32.359
be fair. And so, you know, I would say hats off
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.660
to everybody here for the tremendous amount of
00:32:35.660 --> 00:32:39.880
effort to try to clean up the things that seem
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:42.279
like, okay, kickbacks were dirty, kickbacks are
00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:46.279
bad. But, you know, look, corporate dominance
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:52.319
shouldn't be the answer either. So here, 333
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:57.859
.9. The provisions apply in any civil claim against
00:32:57.859 --> 00:33:00.339
a transportation network company. So now this
00:33:00.339 --> 00:33:05.759
is not all auto cases. This is targeted to the
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:11.759
people who back the fight. Here was the resolution
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:17.410
on how you deal with out of network bills. that
00:33:17.410 --> 00:33:21.289
there's the fair health bill charges and that's
00:33:21.289 --> 00:33:25.170
not Medicare. So there is the, and it's in caps
00:33:25.170 --> 00:33:28.069
because it's an acronym and please do look it
00:33:28.069 --> 00:33:31.150
up and you will find that in fact, these are
00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:33.349
different rates than these are not like, like
00:33:33.349 --> 00:33:36.450
I said, the Medi -Cal or Medicare rates. And
00:33:36.450 --> 00:33:39.410
if we're gonna have these lean based medical
00:33:39.410 --> 00:33:44.130
services, then they can't claim more than 70,
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:47.359
percentile of the fair health bill charges. That
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:51.740
was the resolution, the hammered out compromise
00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:56.380
about how to deal with the people who chose to
00:33:56.380 --> 00:33:59.859
go out of network for good or bad reasons. This
00:33:59.859 --> 00:34:03.400
was the equalizer. Amounts billed in excess of
00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:05.660
the maximum amount are void and unaffordable.
00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:11.659
So if a medical provider went out of that number,
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:15.010
then it's just out. unlawful for an attorney
00:34:15.010 --> 00:34:18.210
with the contingency fee to refer a client to
00:34:18.210 --> 00:34:20.369
a medical provider in which the attorney or immediate
00:34:20.369 --> 00:34:23.909
family had a direct ownership interest. And this
00:34:23.909 --> 00:34:27.289
protects us on the ethics end. No fee splitting,
00:34:27.469 --> 00:34:30.639
no kickbacks or bonuses of referrals. And that
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:35.489
was section one. Now section two. This does get
00:34:35.489 --> 00:34:37.469
to the heart of the issues that we were talking
00:34:37.469 --> 00:34:39.829
about, some of the collateral issues, background
00:34:39.829 --> 00:34:42.849
checks on all the drivers. prohibiting the employment
00:34:42.849 --> 00:34:45.489
of people with certain violent felonies, violent
00:34:45.489 --> 00:34:47.510
and dangerous misdemeanors. This was a really
00:34:47.510 --> 00:34:52.079
important, I think, win for the public. I mean,
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.480
this is about dollars and cents on your settlement.
00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:00.780
This is about regulating the transportation network
00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:05.139
companies. and you know I would say some of this
00:35:05.139 --> 00:35:07.460
is small but it's important like I said for the
00:35:07.460 --> 00:35:09.420
harmony of society and that we're going to live
00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:11.019
together we better make sure that the people
00:35:11.019 --> 00:35:13.260
who are in power you know do at least some of
00:35:13.260 --> 00:35:15.869
the right things. All right so when you look
00:35:15.869 --> 00:35:21.889
at just the comparison overall the scope broad
00:35:21.889 --> 00:35:25.489
statewide automobile accident proposal okay now
00:35:25.489 --> 00:35:31.110
we're just talking about the narrow T &C ride
00:35:31.110 --> 00:35:35.349
share framework. attorney's fees, now we're just
00:35:35.349 --> 00:35:40.130
still back to where we were always. You can't
00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:42.369
get involved with the attorney's fees. And so
00:35:42.369 --> 00:35:46.469
we're staying with the no statewide contingency
00:35:46.469 --> 00:35:50.309
fee cap. This really deals with how you handle
00:35:50.309 --> 00:35:52.789
medical liens. And I really think this is important
00:35:52.789 --> 00:35:54.809
because whether you're on the plaintiff's side
00:35:54.809 --> 00:35:59.289
or the defense side, we don't want people interfering
00:35:59.289 --> 00:36:02.119
with our attorney -client relationship. by virtue
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:05.739
of stepping in on fees. I don't think any defense
00:36:05.739 --> 00:36:07.980
lawyer wants that. No plaintiff lawyer wants
00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:11.000
that. It's not fair to either party or either
00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:13.880
side. And so, you know, that's important also
00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:17.500
for keeping the independence of the attorneys.
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:23.940
So future paid and future medical bills, where
00:36:23.940 --> 00:36:27.159
before it regulated the paid bills and, you know,
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:30.840
try to increase the burden of proof. Here, there
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:36.159
really is no rewrite on that. The past liens
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.480
where that proposal seemed hugely draconian.
00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:44.039
Here, there's now instead of like I said, the
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:47.139
Medicare Medi -Cal, you're using a higher standard
00:36:47.139 --> 00:36:51.320
for looking at what is quote reasonable and now
00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:54.340
using the 17th percentile so that it would start
00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:57.460
to even out what an insurance company would do.
00:36:57.860 --> 00:37:01.619
And it also is a little more in favor of the
00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:04.099
insurance company and encourages people to use
00:37:04.099 --> 00:37:07.300
their healthcare insurance. So it does, like
00:37:07.300 --> 00:37:11.280
I say, it irons out a bunch of the issues and
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:14.360
became the compromise. And I can't even tell
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.840
you how many people plaintiff lawyers up and
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:21.079
down the state really using their incredible.
00:37:21.829 --> 00:37:24.130
legal skills. I would say not everybody has the
00:37:24.130 --> 00:37:26.389
skill of writing legislation. Many of us did
00:37:26.389 --> 00:37:29.670
not like the idea of contracts. We just specifically
00:37:29.670 --> 00:37:32.269
went into torts because we don't like reading
00:37:32.269 --> 00:37:34.590
contracts. And so that means we actually don't
00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:37.449
like reading legislation. I mean, how many of
00:37:37.449 --> 00:37:40.730
you said, oh, you know, I'm going to take a restful
00:37:40.730 --> 00:37:43.070
evening and read the legislative history. Like,
00:37:43.869 --> 00:37:47.190
God, no. And being succinct and articulate and
00:37:47.190 --> 00:37:50.369
being able to codify something, right? the language,
00:37:50.429 --> 00:37:53.889
I can't tell you the number of people that were
00:37:53.889 --> 00:37:56.510
involved in the writing portion of it and how
00:37:56.510 --> 00:37:59.429
grateful I am. And I know you are for somebody
00:37:59.429 --> 00:38:01.969
who knows how to write and knows how to write
00:38:01.969 --> 00:38:07.110
in a way that is correctly interpreted in red
00:38:07.110 --> 00:38:09.829
under California statutes about how we interpret
00:38:09.829 --> 00:38:13.030
statutes. I mean, really all the stuff that most
00:38:13.030 --> 00:38:15.869
people hate doing and didn't like about law school,
00:38:16.190 --> 00:38:19.289
there was incredible lawyers on both sides. who
00:38:19.289 --> 00:38:23.469
have that skill set. So I would say they did
00:38:23.469 --> 00:38:26.610
a really, really good job. The collateral source
00:38:26.610 --> 00:38:30.429
rule, okay, now it doesn't abrogate the collateral
00:38:30.429 --> 00:38:32.070
source rule. We still live in the collateral
00:38:32.070 --> 00:38:37.510
source rule and the political outcome. So you've
00:38:37.510 --> 00:38:42.840
got the negotiated compromise, which means it
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.679
passed through and the governor signed off on
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:50.030
it. And I think that's also really important
00:38:50.030 --> 00:38:54.309
because this type of legislation that is aggressively
00:38:54.309 --> 00:38:57.650
a compromise, I think does demonstrate one of
00:38:57.650 --> 00:39:01.769
the best ways in which we create our laws. Instead
00:39:01.769 --> 00:39:05.289
of throwing it out for the public who is much,
00:39:05.329 --> 00:39:09.329
much less informed and relying on campaigning
00:39:09.329 --> 00:39:12.889
and slogans to dictate how our laws should be
00:39:12.889 --> 00:39:16.949
written. So this is the compromise. This is where
00:39:16.949 --> 00:39:20.250
we are. I just want to point out your Casey instruction
00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:24.050
is still going to be the same. It's just that
00:39:24.050 --> 00:39:26.389
when you get to this part about proof what you
00:39:26.389 --> 00:39:28.610
can actually admit, this language is the same,
00:39:28.710 --> 00:39:31.389
right? To recover damages for past medical expenses,
00:39:31.929 --> 00:39:34.429
plaintiff must prove the reasonable cost of reasonably
00:39:34.429 --> 00:39:37.110
necessary medical care. Well, you've got now
00:39:37.110 --> 00:39:41.050
some guidance based upon this language. that
00:39:41.050 --> 00:39:43.570
is going to get you there. And I think this will
00:39:43.570 --> 00:39:45.949
resolve some of the fights. I think you will
00:39:45.949 --> 00:39:50.190
still see some awkwardness and uncertainty as
00:39:50.190 --> 00:39:56.050
people start to apply it in 2027. But there is
00:39:56.050 --> 00:40:02.030
language in now Civil Code Section 3333 .9. And
00:40:02.030 --> 00:40:04.829
you may all need to look to it about how to get
00:40:04.829 --> 00:40:06.909
to this level of proof, what you can show, what
00:40:06.909 --> 00:40:09.230
you can't show, what it means and what you will
00:40:09.230 --> 00:40:12.000
be arguing. So I think this is something for
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.079
all of us just to be mindful of us for you to
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:16.360
keep in the back of your head that you need to
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:20.780
actually look at civil code section 3333 .9 before
00:40:20.780 --> 00:40:24.380
you get to trial. While you're working up your
00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:26.619
case and when you get to trial you do need to
00:40:26.619 --> 00:40:28.519
know it and it's going to be in some kind of
00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:31.000
briefing. It's going to be in your trial briefing.
00:40:31.659 --> 00:40:35.380
So get ready for that and I would say both sides.
00:40:35.739 --> 00:40:38.440
as we know from various motions. How many of
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:40.400
you have seen now the reptile motion? I see that
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:43.480
so many times. I'm so sick of it. Can we all
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:47.000
just get over it already? Everybody knows, you
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:51.719
know, try to argue within bounds. And this too,
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:55.099
this too shall come, you will start to see patterned
00:40:55.099 --> 00:40:57.800
motions in Lemonade about the admissibility of
00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.780
medical bills and judges are going to need that.
00:41:00.940 --> 00:41:03.400
I'm going to suggest to you that this is not
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:07.230
going to be without a lot of effort. And I do
00:41:07.230 --> 00:41:10.929
hope the appellate lawyers, the good ones are
00:41:10.929 --> 00:41:13.090
all starting to weigh in and create these things.
00:41:13.130 --> 00:41:16.449
And I think we should expect CAOC to have one.
00:41:16.489 --> 00:41:22.139
I expect the California Defense Association to
00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:24.539
have one. And I think you're gonna all start
00:41:24.539 --> 00:41:27.460
to see the same motions and it's gonna happen.
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:29.619
All right, so what about these cases? Where are
00:41:29.619 --> 00:41:33.719
these things gonna go? Just, I think this past
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.760
week, Uber sex assault case that was supposed
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:42.039
to go to trial in Austin just got settled. I
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:44.119
don't know exactly how public that is. I don't
00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:47.559
know the amounts or anything like that. But we're
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:49.719
going to see, I don't know, there's, I believe,
00:41:49.940 --> 00:41:52.780
something on the order of 4 ,500 different Uber
00:41:52.780 --> 00:41:55.760
assault claims. That's a big docket to try to
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:59.019
manage around the country. And how much this
00:41:59.019 --> 00:42:02.119
affects that directly, indirectly is really the
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:05.619
issue. But those are the things that you're going
00:42:05.619 --> 00:42:09.260
to see, I think, more of and in play, probably
00:42:09.260 --> 00:42:15.780
less of as we then go to, let me say, the robo
00:42:15.780 --> 00:42:21.309
taxi business. So Uber announced plans to deploy
00:42:21.309 --> 00:42:23.530
a whole bunch of robo taxis. You know, you've
00:42:23.530 --> 00:42:25.949
now seen, I think, Amazon's version, which is
00:42:25.949 --> 00:42:30.650
Zoox. You've seen Waymo. We're all seeing these
00:42:30.650 --> 00:42:33.969
things. This really is going to shift into product
00:42:33.969 --> 00:42:36.469
liability world. And we're still going to have
00:42:36.469 --> 00:42:38.429
to deal with some of these same issues about
00:42:38.429 --> 00:42:41.250
what is our order of proof. I think these cases
00:42:41.250 --> 00:42:44.280
are going to become harder. But how many more
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.380
of them you're going to have, you know, with
00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:52.059
the improvement of all of these automated systems,
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:55.519
it's moving fast. You know, I'm not here to predict
00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:58.059
how quickly you're going to see all of it replace
00:42:58.059 --> 00:43:03.880
the Uber person driver. I don't know, but These
00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:06.119
are the fights that we're gonna have. And I think
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:09.199
we all have to be careful and mindful about how
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:13.559
we're going to bring these fights. What are our
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:16.539
rights going to be? If you get into a robo taxi,
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.300
what should you expect? What is the consumer
00:43:19.300 --> 00:43:23.940
expectation for the safety, the efficacy, the
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:28.510
ability for it to stop in time? ability for it
00:43:28.510 --> 00:43:30.849
to drop you off where you should be dropped off.
00:43:31.070 --> 00:43:35.250
I had the recent experience of taking a Waymo
00:43:35.250 --> 00:43:37.610
and it dropped me off two and a half blocks from
00:43:37.610 --> 00:43:40.030
where I told it to drop me off and it didn't
00:43:40.030 --> 00:43:42.309
seem to have a way for me to get to my actual
00:43:42.309 --> 00:43:46.329
destination. And it's late at night, it's dark,
00:43:46.409 --> 00:43:49.349
you could foresee some problems and issues there
00:43:49.349 --> 00:43:53.159
potentially on liability. And I think these are
00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:55.659
all things that, as I said, as a group, we should
00:43:55.659 --> 00:43:57.880
all be mindful of what are our rights, what should
00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:01.380
we come to expect, and what should we demand,
00:44:01.940 --> 00:44:07.980
especially for all of us who are paying collectively
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:11.059
a big amount of money to corporations that will
00:44:11.059 --> 00:44:13.679
absolutely profit from this. and I don't say
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:16.059
this that there's anybody evil in it. It is we
00:44:16.059 --> 00:44:18.199
all have to think about how to balance this as
00:44:18.199 --> 00:44:21.000
I said so that we are living harmoniously in
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.500
a society that we want to live in where there
00:44:23.500 --> 00:44:26.920
isn't one group that has extremely high leverage
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:30.679
over another. Let me take you back to the UM
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:33.780
UIM thing. This did get passed 2026 and I will
00:44:33.780 --> 00:44:37.420
say I found this kind of painful. Particularly
00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:39.860
because, you know, ride share companies like
00:44:39.860 --> 00:44:43.139
Uber and Lyft are such big corporations, but
00:44:43.139 --> 00:44:51.900
this has reduced the UM UYM coverage. And I think
00:44:51.900 --> 00:44:56.380
what does this say? It was originally a million
00:44:56.380 --> 00:44:58.780
dollars that they had to have a million dollars
00:44:58.780 --> 00:45:03.260
UYM coverage. And this I thought got passed quietly
00:45:03.260 --> 00:45:06.730
and without it being uh really on anybody's radar
00:45:06.730 --> 00:45:10.230
for the big fight uh and i don't know what does
00:45:10.230 --> 00:45:13.250
that say for all of us do everybody here really
00:45:13.250 --> 00:45:18.929
should have um coverage uh that it probably would
00:45:18.929 --> 00:45:21.530
kick in and you're not going to be able to rely
00:45:21.530 --> 00:45:25.789
upon the um uber and lyft coverage so that raises
00:45:25.789 --> 00:45:28.690
an interesting point Because as we get to, as
00:45:28.690 --> 00:45:30.670
I say, all these robo taxis, how many of you
00:45:30.670 --> 00:45:32.610
are going to have a car anymore? How many of
00:45:32.610 --> 00:45:35.050
you have a 16 year old kid that actually doesn't
00:45:35.050 --> 00:45:38.789
have a driver's license? How many of their friends
00:45:38.789 --> 00:45:41.429
do not have driver licenses and don't plan to?
00:45:42.429 --> 00:45:45.829
What is going to be our rights, as I said, back
00:45:45.829 --> 00:45:48.110
to the consumer expectation on the robo taxi
00:45:48.110 --> 00:45:52.309
about what the a robot taxi should be able to
00:45:52.309 --> 00:45:54.849
do because if nobody or let me say if you have
00:45:54.849 --> 00:45:56.949
a reduced number of people who know how to drive
00:45:56.949 --> 00:45:59.750
in an emergency situation the passenger is not
00:45:59.750 --> 00:46:01.230
going to be able to get into the driver's seat
00:46:01.230 --> 00:46:05.539
and override anything. That's a frightening dystopian
00:46:05.539 --> 00:46:09.239
thought. I don't mean to fill your heads with
00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:14.139
scary sci -fi aliens or anything like that but
00:46:14.139 --> 00:46:17.159
when we think about the future I think we are
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:21.099
going to find continuing smart lawyers who will
00:46:21.099 --> 00:46:23.559
look at, as I say, what are our rights? What
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:26.679
should we come to expect? And why should we come
00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:30.019
to expect those things? Just the last bit on
00:46:30.019 --> 00:46:33.380
the future here with legislation, what is that
00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:37.659
going to mean? I think this was a really aggressive,
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:40.440
I hope we don't see it again for a long time,
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:44.119
because there was so much money put into this
00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:46.360
that could have been used in many, many different
00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:50.719
ways. And so I would hope that we don't see this.
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:54.480
Are we in for more polarization in the future?
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:58.219
I think many of us would say living in the times
00:46:58.219 --> 00:47:03.579
that we're living in, sadly, that is true. We're
00:47:03.579 --> 00:47:08.360
being deeply polarized, deeply divided on basic
00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:15.760
human rights issues. And back to, who is it?
00:47:16.849 --> 00:47:19.369
you know, back in the, what, early 90s riots,
00:47:19.469 --> 00:47:23.610
can we just all get along? And I really hope
00:47:23.610 --> 00:47:26.010
that, and I mean that, I think, you know, we're
00:47:26.010 --> 00:47:31.210
gonna find that hammering it out with both sides
00:47:31.210 --> 00:47:34.889
is part of what to expect in the future. But
00:47:34.889 --> 00:47:37.449
I hope it doesn't come at the massive cost that
00:47:37.449 --> 00:47:41.530
we've seen. And we've seen that, as you know,
00:47:41.869 --> 00:47:44.690
with, you know, even the fight on lawyers on
00:47:44.690 --> 00:47:48.340
the Perkins -Cooey, uh selection of lawyers fight
00:47:48.340 --> 00:47:50.900
in the penalties for all of that and I'm sorry
00:47:50.900 --> 00:47:52.659
I don't mean to get too deep into all of your
00:47:52.659 --> 00:47:55.300
politics but that has a lot to do with our right
00:47:55.300 --> 00:47:59.219
uh as to who we pick as attorneys and we should
00:47:59.219 --> 00:48:03.860
jealously guard those rights so on the um I don't
00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:15.119
see any questions uh I I think uh the materials
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:20.059
are available um I think One question came in
00:48:20.059 --> 00:48:26.380
just now. Oh, here I see. Okay, maybe outside
00:48:26.380 --> 00:48:28.860
the scope of your lecture, but can you sue Uber
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:31.840
in the US for something that happened abroad?
00:48:32.019 --> 00:48:34.900
I was recently assaulted. And I'm sorry, I don't
00:48:34.900 --> 00:48:36.159
know if you want me to read the whole thing.
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:37.760
I apologize. So maybe you're not going to read
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:40.519
all of that. But the main question is, can you
00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:44.019
sue Uber in the United States for something that
00:48:44.019 --> 00:48:47.860
happened abroad? And I think if I'm going to
00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:54.980
say that I think the answer to that is yes. I
00:48:54.980 --> 00:49:00.199
think though you have an issue with substantive
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.159
law, which law applies and whether you're actually
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:09.130
gonna end up getting removed in some fashion
00:49:09.130 --> 00:49:15.969
actually out of the country. So let me just say.
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.000
I haven't researched that issue. So I'm going
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:20.179
to make the disclaimer right now so that I don't
00:49:20.179 --> 00:49:23.019
sound like a complete idiot when some of my favorite
00:49:23.019 --> 00:49:26.920
really smart attorneys answer this question.
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:32.260
But you know, the Uber is a US company that it
00:49:32.260 --> 00:49:36.780
happened somewhere else. Does it mean that your
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:40.699
rights that you don't have any rights here? So
00:49:40.699 --> 00:49:43.780
at least I get to that by in a long winded way
00:49:43.780 --> 00:49:46.000
by saying I think that you do. I think that you
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:51.769
can. But isn't a question mark for all of us?
00:49:52.130 --> 00:49:58.230
Well, does substantive law apply here or in the
00:49:58.230 --> 00:50:01.329
location where it occurred? You know, and are
00:50:01.329 --> 00:50:05.750
we implicating the driver? And I don't think
00:50:05.750 --> 00:50:09.650
that, you know, in other words, is Uber also
00:50:09.650 --> 00:50:12.170
vicariously liable for that driver? That has
00:50:12.170 --> 00:50:15.630
been a constant debate. And we are seeing more
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:18.119
fights on that, and that is being brought to
00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:21.699
the court on, as I said, that vicarious liability.
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:27.170
So we have seen, for instance, cases involving,
00:50:27.369 --> 00:50:30.469
we all know the Amazon case, Loomis and Bolger
00:50:30.469 --> 00:50:34.710
versus Amazon, where something happened here,
00:50:34.750 --> 00:50:36.829
but the manufacturer is actually outside the
00:50:36.829 --> 00:50:40.230
United States. And in that circumstance, Amazon
00:50:40.230 --> 00:50:44.610
is responsible as a in the vertical chain of
00:50:44.610 --> 00:50:47.329
distribution. Is there some analogy that works
00:50:47.329 --> 00:50:49.190
or fits there? I would say they're two different
00:50:49.190 --> 00:50:51.909
concepts and two different ideas. But when you
00:50:51.909 --> 00:50:55.369
get to the e -commerce platform, I do think we're
00:50:55.369 --> 00:50:57.949
gonna see very good briefing on these topics.
00:50:59.090 --> 00:51:01.190
So Benjamin, I'm sorry, I don't think I answered
00:51:01.190 --> 00:51:04.650
your question so directly or so definitively,
00:51:04.670 --> 00:51:07.110
but that is me shooting from the hip for what
00:51:07.110 --> 00:51:14.340
it's worth. Let's see, any other questions? Hello,
00:51:14.340 --> 00:51:17.489
Robert. Have there been changes in the ways Uber's
00:51:17.489 --> 00:51:20.110
or its insurers handle injury claims following
00:51:20.110 --> 00:51:22.349
the passage of this law in June or is it too
00:51:22.349 --> 00:51:26.130
early to tell? I'm going to say it's too early
00:51:26.130 --> 00:51:29.250
to tell. I do think that Uber having as much
00:51:29.250 --> 00:51:33.289
power as it does dictates the way that it is
00:51:33.289 --> 00:51:35.989
going to handle claims. I don't feel like it's
00:51:35.989 --> 00:51:38.750
dependent on how this legislation went. I think
00:51:38.750 --> 00:51:43.469
they evaluate things on a risk basis and what's
00:51:43.469 --> 00:51:46.880
going to come out at trial. And so are they fairly
00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:51.300
evaluating these cases? I will say for what it's
00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:58.139
worth, my experiences with Uber have been, they
00:51:58.139 --> 00:52:01.900
do a good job of evaluating whether they're gonna
00:52:01.900 --> 00:52:03.519
win this or lose this and what the mitigation
00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:05.800
is gonna be and whether they're using big data
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:07.579
for that and whether we have the same resources
00:52:07.579 --> 00:52:09.599
on the big data, okay. I think that's a little
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:14.539
unfair, parenthetically, but I think too. answer
00:52:14.539 --> 00:52:17.280
Robert. I think it is a little too early to tell
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:19.159
if it matters in any way. I think, as I said,
00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:22.260
you're going to see it spill over more in the
00:52:22.260 --> 00:52:25.380
other ways on the robo taxi, on the Uber assault
00:52:25.380 --> 00:52:30.099
cases, and on, you know, like these UM claims.
00:52:30.139 --> 00:52:32.099
I do think you're going to see fewer UM claims
00:52:32.099 --> 00:52:42.000
just on the 2026 law. We have a few more minutes
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:45.119
for other thoughts or questions. God, I hope
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:50.110
this has been interesting. And here we go. OK,
00:52:50.110 --> 00:52:51.909
not necessarily a question, but a problem that
00:52:51.909 --> 00:52:54.050
I'm seeing on the horizon. Ride share passengers
00:52:54.050 --> 00:52:57.130
without health insurance may be faced with a
00:52:57.130 --> 00:52:59.289
problem regarding access to medical treatment.
00:53:00.710 --> 00:53:02.929
And Alastair had a recent conversation with a
00:53:02.929 --> 00:53:06.030
medical provider that historically provided treatment
00:53:06.030 --> 00:53:09.230
on a lean basis, pain management, neurology and
00:53:09.230 --> 00:53:11.769
psychology. Going forward, they roundtabled this
00:53:11.769 --> 00:53:14.210
legislation and will no longer offer treatment
00:53:14.210 --> 00:53:17.360
specifically to ride share case patients. I think
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:21.239
that is such a good point. Is that going to be
00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:26.670
an issue? Are you going to have physicians who
00:53:26.670 --> 00:53:32.710
will not cooperate? And I think this is the reason
00:53:32.710 --> 00:53:35.530
they're not cooperating because they don't think
00:53:35.530 --> 00:53:37.550
they'll get paid or that they don't think they'll
00:53:37.550 --> 00:53:41.949
get paid enough. I think the question there is
00:53:41.949 --> 00:53:47.550
how I think with this legislation, that is absolutely
00:53:47.550 --> 00:53:51.969
affected. So I wonder if though, this is the
00:53:51.969 --> 00:53:55.010
interesting question, whether for a person who's
00:53:55.010 --> 00:54:00.829
not insured, does it default in essence to howl?
00:54:00.829 --> 00:54:04.130
Because really this bill, which this compromise
00:54:04.130 --> 00:54:07.369
is intended to fix that issue where people are
00:54:07.369 --> 00:54:10.909
insured, but choosing to go out of network. And
00:54:10.909 --> 00:54:13.909
so I think too early to tell does this mean that
00:54:13.980 --> 00:54:16.880
the courts are simply going to read the uninsured
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:21.110
person the same as it had in Howell? Are you
00:54:21.110 --> 00:54:22.750
not going to change that? And I think that would
00:54:22.750 --> 00:54:26.710
be the fair way to look at it and approach it.
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:34.010
I have Philip still with me. Any other thoughts
00:54:34.010 --> 00:54:37.530
here, Philip? This has been a very interesting,
00:54:37.690 --> 00:54:40.829
very interesting perspective. And Doug did a
00:54:40.829 --> 00:54:45.239
wonderful job. He sure did. I mean, I'm really
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:48.440
so proud of my partner. Doug Seltzer. I think
00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:52.539
everybody is grateful to him for spearheading
00:54:52.539 --> 00:54:56.500
that and never shying away from the fight or
00:54:56.500 --> 00:54:59.619
the phone calls or any of the late night anything.
00:55:00.260 --> 00:55:03.719
So it was really tremendous. And I know I hope
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:06.519
that you all feel like you got your time's worth.
00:55:07.179 --> 00:55:10.239
We like to make sure that whenever we put on
00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:13.570
a program that you get something practical from
00:55:13.570 --> 00:55:15.630
it, you get something legal from it, and you
00:55:15.630 --> 00:55:18.010
have something in your back pocket when you head
00:55:18.010 --> 00:55:25.559
to trial. So what else, Philip? I believe we
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:31.130
have another question in the Q &A. Okay. How
00:55:31.130 --> 00:55:33.750
is product liability relevant to the self -driving
00:55:33.750 --> 00:55:36.289
liability framework? Well, remember, because
00:55:36.289 --> 00:55:41.030
you don't have a driver and it is being guided
00:55:41.030 --> 00:55:45.230
entirely by the software, that's the product.
00:55:46.309 --> 00:55:52.230
And so when you get to this, and I had a first
00:55:52.650 --> 00:55:56.570
Tesla product liability settlement was Huang
00:55:56.570 --> 00:56:03.760
versus Tesla and the state of California. Tesla
00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:07.219
settled before the case actually went to trial.
00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:09.699
The case then continued on against the state
00:56:09.699 --> 00:56:14.230
of California in a dangerous condition. issue,
00:56:14.429 --> 00:56:17.230
but the framework there or the issue there was,
00:56:17.230 --> 00:56:20.150
in fact, using autopilot and that early stage
00:56:20.150 --> 00:56:23.969
in 2018, it was not nearly as developed as it
00:56:23.969 --> 00:56:29.130
is today. But the issue there was, does autopilot
00:56:29.130 --> 00:56:31.809
work the way that the consumer expects it to?
00:56:32.190 --> 00:56:34.789
And so when now you're in the robo taxi world,
00:56:35.349 --> 00:56:40.300
the question is going to be, did this car in
00:56:40.300 --> 00:56:43.320
its automated way, drive the way that a consumer
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:47.000
expect it to be. And if you're on the other route,
00:56:47.340 --> 00:56:51.639
KC 1204, was there a more reasonable alternative
00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:55.559
or feasible alternatives? Was this the thing
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:57.780
that should have been used? And then I think
00:56:57.780 --> 00:57:00.360
you're getting into the fight of computer software
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:04.219
and who has the better software? Who has the
00:57:04.219 --> 00:57:07.340
better camera? Who's using LIDAR? Who's using
00:57:07.340 --> 00:57:11.139
radar? those are among the fights and what should,
00:57:11.260 --> 00:57:13.019
as I said, you come to expect. So you're going
00:57:13.019 --> 00:57:17.199
to have to prove, you know, under Casey 1203
00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:20.239
and 1204, that's the design defect. You may be
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:23.760
on the manufacturing path. You may be on the
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:27.420
failure to warn path. Was there adequate warning
00:57:27.420 --> 00:57:29.699
that for instance, you know, this wouldn't do
00:57:29.699 --> 00:57:32.460
X, Y or Z or that you couldn't get out of the
00:57:32.460 --> 00:57:37.820
car? uh because the robo taxi locked you in and
00:57:37.820 --> 00:57:39.860
there wasn't a mechanism that you could find
00:57:39.860 --> 00:57:42.239
readily you know i mean i think those are any
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:46.000
number of things that can come up i hope that
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:50.880
answered the question daniel i hope i'm giving
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:53.679
good answers god you know let me just remind
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:58.380
you uh the advice is free so it's worth what
00:57:58.380 --> 00:58:02.199
you paid for it you only came for the talk the
00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:04.760
rest of this is just spitballing i must confess
00:58:07.929 --> 00:58:11.800
Okay. I really enjoyed being here. Thank you,
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:15.550
Philip. Thank you. We really appreciate your
00:58:15.550 --> 00:58:15.750
time.