Can uncomfortable conversations change our minds? (with Josh Szeps)

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The point is that we take some
kind of a dangerous question and
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a question which, if someone was
to raise a strident opinion
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about it at a pub or at an
office party or at a dinner
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party at someone's house,
everyone's assholes would just
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clench up a little bit.
That might be immigration, that
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might be trans, that might be
gender equality, that might be,
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you know, indigenous rights.
That might be climate change.
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And the point of uncomfortable
conversations is to create a
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playground, a landscape in which
we can be completely heedless of
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any of those concerns and just
explore wherever our intellects
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take us without worrying about
offending people.
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The object there is not
necessarily to change people's
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minds, but to allow people to
feel heard if there's a little
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voice on their shoulder that
cause bullshit on some of the
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mainstream orthodoxies or dogmas
from either side.
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And in doing that, I think you
open up a space in which people
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can consider other views with
more compassion.
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You're listening to Change My
Mind, where interesting thinkers
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share their biggest changes of
heart and we explore how views
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change, or more often don't, in
society at large.
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Today we're joined by Josh Epps,
seasoned broadcaster and public
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figure who's had a front row
seat to the transformation of
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media and public discourse.
Josh has worked across
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traditional broadcasting with
the likes of ABC Radio, but also
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embracing new media with his
podcast Uncomfortable
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Conversations.
With Uncomfortable
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Conversations, Josh aims to
create a space for people who
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disagree on sensitive issues to
engage in good faith dialogue
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where participants and listeners
can understand different
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perspectives, potentially
changing their minds, and
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discover common ground.
In this episode, we explore how
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Josh's views have evolved on how
to create an information
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ecosystem that promotes
understanding and mutual respect
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rather than confusion and
division.
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We'll discuss the different
roles that traditional and new
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media play and the roles they
ought to play given their
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comparative advantages.
We'll discuss the value of
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public disagreement, the crafts
are doing it constructively, and
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its limits for actually changing
our minds.
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We'll also discuss how to
navigate a world where
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attention, not truth, is often
the currency that matters most.
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Thanks for joining us.
Thanks so much for having me.
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So Josh, I'd like to begin with
your journey to starting
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Uncomfortable conversations,
because the show is dedicated to
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what you call rational, bullshit
free conversations about
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controversial topics.
And I want to know how your
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experience in traditional media
places like the ABC informed
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your conviction that
conversations like this need a
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safe haven and need to be.
Defended I mean, I think it was
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obvious from before I even
joined the public broadcaster.
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And I think it's it's
intuitively obvious to everybody
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who has lived through the
cultural war the past five or
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ten years that that something is
not functioning optimally about
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the way that we converse about
the most provocative things.
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That that the number of trip
wires that you can trigger or
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egg shells that you can tread on
that can derail a conversation
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or can have you pegged by
someone who disagrees with you
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as a member of the opposing
tribe are too numerous and too
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intense and too hazardous for us
to have a kind of a freewheeling
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public square where people can
say whatever they want.
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And sometimes when I say that
people misunderstand me and
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think, but hang on a second,
we've got neo Nazis on X, who
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are, you know, saying that
Hitler was a good guy.
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Surely there's no dearth of free
speech.
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I'm not talking about the
ability to shit post or produce
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like funny memes of Donald Trump
looking like the Pope or
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something like that, or like,
you know, saying that Hitler was
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a good guy.
I'm talking about learning to
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flex our muscles of disagreement
in a way that actually lands
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with people who don't already
disagree with you.
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Like, it's of course there's
free speech within the echo
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chambers and the thought bubbles
that people inhabit.
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There's always been that in a
way.
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I mean, unless you live in an
authoritarian hellscape.
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But what there isn't, and what
we've lost the ability to do, I
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think is have a common grounding
of discourse where I can talk
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about things.
And I may be overly nostalgic
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about imagining that there was
some halcyon day in which this
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ever was the case.
But I think it was probably
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easier when everybody was
watching an old white straight
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guy talk at them, delivering the
news for 30 minutes in the
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evening, rather than it'd be
heedless cacophony that we've
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got on social media today where
so many of us are getting our
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news from different sources.
It was probably easier back then
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to talk to your neighbors and
people at the checkout or people
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on the subway about things that
were going on without fearing
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that you're going to run into
somebody who's from an opposing
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tribe and you're going to
alienate them or say the wrong
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thing.
Or, you know, say something that
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that gets coded as a racial
microaggression or that codes
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you as a Marga supporter or
whatever it might be.
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So I started uncomfortable
conversations in 2020 during the
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pandemic and I was already on
track to be a sort of a face of
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the public broadcaster here in
Australia.
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And so it wasn't a direct
response to my experiences there
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yet because I was sort of my my
style was on the rise at the A
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at the Australian Broadcasting
Corporation, at the ABC, which
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is sort of like Australia's
version of the BBC and which for
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any American listeners is
significantly more important a
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part of the national
conversation and culture than
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something like NPR or PBS is.
And I think it was probably it
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was probably A2 fold move.
I mean, on the one hand, I
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wanted to have conversations
that I knew would be taboo at
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the public broadcaster because
they would be a little bit too
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spicy and they would wander into
territory that you're not
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allowed to wander into if you
have to carry the burden, I
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suppose, of and credibility of
the national public broadcaster.
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But also, I think subliminally I
was probably shoring myself up
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in case everything went S
between me and the public
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broadcaster, which it ultimately
did.
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And thank God I had the
foresight to create an insurance
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policy because now I get to make
more money doing much less work
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and not have a boss.
So that's the, I think the long
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answer, which is it was not
necessary for me to be inside
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the beast to know that the way
that the mainstream elite
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information institutions, namely
social media and legacy media
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had failings.
Yeah.
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I guess for me, the first thing
is you say that you started
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uncomfortable conversation
because you knew that these
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kinds of conversations were not
appropriate for the broadcaster.
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And I wonder, like, is that a
implicit critique of the
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broadcaster or would you say,
like, look, the stuff that they
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do well and because of the kind
of institution they are, the
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role that they play in society
is right that they kind of
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don't.
There are sort of spaces that
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they don't touch, all levels of
spice that they don't kind of
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stoop to.
Yeah, good question.
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It's both.
It's both.
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It is a critique not
specifically of the ABC, but of
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all media organizations over the
past five or ten years,
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especially public ones, which if
you look at the trajectory of
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NPR, the BBC and the ABC, 20
years ago, you know, when I was
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growing up, these would have
been that you would have heard a
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whole variety of weird,
intriguing, unusual perspectives
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on those outlets.
And now when you tune in, if you
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know that there is going to be a
conversation on one of those
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outlets, say, let's say a panel
discussion debating, I don't
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know, let's say it's either
going to be immigration or it's
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going to be women's equality or
it's going to be in the case of
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Australia, indigenous rights, or
in the case of America, Black
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Lives Matter, or in the case of
the UK, Brexit.
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One of these sort of, you know,
highly provocative,
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controversial, divisive issues
of the past decade.
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You can pretty much jot on the
back of a napkin in advance the
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skew that you're going to get
from the BBC or NPR or the ABC.
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And I don't think that used to
be the case.
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I think that they've been cowed
by the social justice reckoning
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of the 20 tens into self
selecting a group of people who
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think broadly the same way about
what it means to be on the right
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side of history.
And so you just wouldn't want to
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countenance or platform ideas
that you regard as being
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depraved or wrong headed or
racist or bigoted or white
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supremacist or sexist, or
however you might code it, or
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transphobic or homophobic.
And the circumference of your
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pool of ideas that gets dumped
into this unacceptable,
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deplorable bucket is so large,
so capacious, that there are
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whole swathes of the population,
maybe things that 40% of the
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population believe, like maybe
we should do a better job of
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integrating Muslim migrants into
the United Kingdom in order to
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maintain social cohesion.
Or, you know, maybe we should
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reconsider, you know, whether or
not tokenistic gestures from
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white HR representatives in
Australia doing kowtowing to
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Indigenous pro forma
acknowledgements of country and
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land acknowledgements are
necessarily the best way for to
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progress race relations.
You know, whatever it might be.
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There are whole swathes of ideas
that are regarded as being
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taboo.
So that's 1/2 of the of the
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answer, which is they should be
more rambunctious, more
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boisterous, more spicy, more,
you know, entertaining, more
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representative.
They're supposed to represent
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the views of the nation.
Public broadcasters are.
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However, that being said, all of
that needs to take place in what
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is annoyingly termed by
insiders, the content strand.
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So most of these organizations,
well almost all media
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organizations that are in the
news game, we'll have a news
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division and then they'll have a
non news division, which here in
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Australia is called content.
I don't know what they call it
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elsewhere.
And that won't just be
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entertainment, won't just be the
sitcoms and the dramas and so
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on.
That'll also include like panel
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discussion shows and things like
that and like Question Time in
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the UK or Q&A here in Australia.
Actually, I think Q&A is handled
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by the news division, but there
are all kinds of shows that are
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similar to that, like my
Talkback radio show, which sort
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of dabble in the news but are
not technically supposed to be
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beholden to the high standards
of journalism that the news
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division itself is.
You've had a second and slightly
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different problem happened in
the news divisions than the one
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that I'm articulating in the
content division, which is a
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kind of a closed mindedness and
a sort of a social justice
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mindset.
The problem in the news division
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is that the push for diversity,
for the diversification of
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newsrooms, for taking them,
transitioning them from being
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bastions of white, straight,
middle-aged males to being more
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female, more diverse, more
queer, more inhabited by more
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journalists of colour.
All of which I think is a good
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thing, has been done in a ham
fisted way.
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In the sense that it is now
taken for granted in a newsroom
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that if you're going to do a
story about queer issues, it's
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it's going to be assigned to the
LGBTQIA plus reporter who is
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likely a an early 20s purple
haired nose ringed they them.
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And that means that all of the
coverage of that whole field
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gets filtered through a prism
that is quite alien to a large
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proportion of the population and
does not represent the views of
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conservatives, certainly doesn't
represent the views of like
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recent Chinese migrants or
migrants from like Lebanon OR
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something like that who have no
understanding of this whole
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universe of trans pronouns and
so on.
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It means that any story that's
about race is going to get
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assigned to a journalist of
colour.
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And I understand the instincts
here, but to some extent, it's
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no more justifiable than saying
that any story that you're going
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to do which is about the mining
industry should be written by a
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mining industry lobbyist or any
industry that you're sure that
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you're going to do about the
drug industry is going to be,
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you know, written by somebody
who has experience working for a
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drug company.
You could see the obvious
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conflict of interest there.
They have a vested interest.
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They're coming.
You're pulling from that pool.
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And similarly, when you only see
Trump's executive order on
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gender being reported on by
people who think that he is the
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devil for Cook, for, you know,
instantiating in U.S. law that
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sex is biological instead of
cultural, you're missing you've
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got huge blind spots.
So there are two problems.
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The I think the news division
has to become much less
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opinionated and has to ditch
this idea that it's had
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recently, which is that there's
a sort of a lived experience
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that needs to bleed into news
and that journalists should
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bring their whole selves to work
and tell their own truths.
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00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,240
There are no own truths.
Like there's reporting and
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there's not reporting.
There's good journalism and
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there's bad journalism.
There's what happened and what
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didn't happen.
You've seen this a lot on Gaza
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as well, where, you know, the
felt experience of, you know,
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people who feel like they're
marginalized, whether that's on
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the Jewish side who are
screaming anti-Semitism anytime
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anyone criticizes Israel, or
whether it's on the Palestinian
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side, where you've got Arab
journalists yelling about how if
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a news organization doesn't use
the word genocide, then it's,
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you know, it's not telling the
real unvarnished truth.
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00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,840
It leaves us with this kind of
cacophony of unrepresentative
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00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,760
voices who are all shilling
their own thing and singing
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their own song in the news
division.
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And then at the same time,
you've got a curiously inert and
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00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,960
bland content division where
that is the place where all of
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00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,880
these people should be shouting
at each other and having these
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arguments the way that we do,
the way that we would in a
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00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,320
really good, at a really good
dinner party, right?
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And that is left kind of
castrated and bland and like
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you're reading from a social
justice hymn sheet.
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So my criticism is both sort of
institutional and nonspecific in
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the sense that the news
division, news divisions should
253
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be cautious and they should be
fact driven and they should not
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be spicy like me.
But I wasn't in the news
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division.
I had a Talkback radio show
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which was in the content
division.
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00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,480
And nonetheless, I had a falling
out with the broadcaster because
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I was constantly trying to talk
about things and about the
259
00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,080
existence of, I suppose cancel
culture within the organization
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00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,480
and within the media more
broadly in ways that ruffled
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00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,280
feathers and when not the dumb
thing.
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00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,440
So at A at an industry level,
news needs to be completely free
263
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,880
from the sorts of spiciness that
I'm talking about.
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00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,760
And then at a specific level,
institutions need to be more
265
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,880
brave about the things that they
allow said in the content, on
266
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,600
the content side.
So we want to get onto your
267
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,320
spicy conversations a bit
because I think there's some
268
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,000
really interesting stuff to to
say that.
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But I wonder if there's a little
bit of exaggeration here.
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00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,920
Like I don't know about
Australia, but you did mention,
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00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,960
for example, the BBC.
And it strikes me that there was
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00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,800
this period in early COVID where
I think there was like a very
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00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,520
large shift in the media towards
kind of, you know, around the
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00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,240
sort of Black Lives Matter
protests and things.
275
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,640
And trans issues were in the
media and the UK as well at the
276
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time because of some things JK
Rowling had been saying and
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00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,320
stuff like this.
But then this, it felt to me
278
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,760
like there was actually a real
shift back against that and a
279
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,840
sort of a feeling like maybe
things had gone a bit too far in
280
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,960
one particular direction.
And I mean, so in the UK, for
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00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,800
example, just today, there was a
lot of coverage of a recent
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Supreme Court ruling on trans
issues.
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00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:07,160
One of the most interviewed and
hosted people on sort of the
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comment sections of our news in
the BBC is Nigel Farage, who's
285
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,800
obviously one of the sort of key
Brexit people.
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00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,440
And the issue of immigration is
constantly being debated in the
287
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,240
UK, generally with the premise
that like immigration is somehow
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00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:21,760
bad and we need to limit it and
stuff like that.
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00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,400
So I just wonder, is it, I think
you're getting at something
290
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,760
that's real, but I think maybe
there's a bit of a exaggeration
291
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,080
here.
Someone like Farage is.
292
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,560
Take your point.
There is a swing back, right?
293
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,800
There is definitely a push back.
I wonder whether the push back
294
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,480
is in the direction of healthy
discourse that I'm advocating
295
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,280
for, or whether it's a push back
in the direction of the same
296
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,800
kind of phony binaries that I am
resisting in the first place.
297
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,240
In other words, you may be right
that there's a swing away from
298
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:57,040
the extremely dominant
censoriousness of the social
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00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,160
justice left that we saw
between, I don't know, maybe
300
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,920
2016 and 2022.
But it may be being replaced by
301
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,520
an equally unthinking and
simplistic right wing narrative
302
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,560
from the likes of Farage and
Musk and Donald Trump, which I
303
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,760
don't think is the that's not
what I'm calling for.
304
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,560
I mean, I'm not calling for.
Let's try to blow things up by
305
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,720
being edge Lords and saying
naughty things.
306
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:29,000
I'm trying to find ways to nudge
people 10% out of their echo
307
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,200
chamber and towards the other
side by articulating a vision of
308
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,400
1's opponents that is as
generous as possible so that
309
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,240
what you say it lands and is
winnable.
310
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,280
And I see Farage as a an
enormously negative and cynical
311
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,600
force in British politics who I
don't think would have come
312
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,200
about and I don't think Brexit
would have come about had we
313
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,200
addressed the kinds of problems
with the conversation that I'm
314
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,600
talking about earlier.
Like, had it been possible to
315
00:16:53,680 --> 00:17:00,160
talk in Britain in the early
twenty 10's and late 2000s about
316
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,360
what European Union integration
actually means?
317
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,880
About, you know, whether or not
it means that Britain should
318
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,720
take in unlimited numbers of of,
you know, low skilled Polish
319
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,480
workers?
And whether the demographic face
320
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,119
of Britain should change
completely, what the appropriate
321
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,640
response to the Syrian refugee
crisis ought to be.
322
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,480
And if there was a more
freewheeling landscape in which
323
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,079
people could air their
demographic grievances about the
324
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,800
fact that the little English
town that they grew up in that
325
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,040
had been basically the same for
1000 years had all of a sudden
326
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,360
gone from being 98% white to 40%
white in the space of the past
327
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:38,040
20 years.
If they'd been able to talk
328
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,720
about those grievances without
being held down as a racist and
329
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,120
just told to get with the
program because both parties
330
00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:47,680
were on board with this bold new
future where everything is going
331
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,760
to be great and you know, a
significant minority of your
332
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,840
town is now going to be
Pakistani born, then I think you
333
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,200
would have, you could have
dodged Brexit and you could have
334
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,840
dodged Farage at all.
So I'm not sure about, I mean,
335
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,080
you may be right about that
opening up.
336
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,600
I'm still sceptical that it is a
genuine opening up on all
337
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,080
issues.
I mean, you might have that on
338
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,680
trans and you might have that on
immigration, but, you know, take
339
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,280
something like free speech and
the question of whether or not
340
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,160
it it's acceptable.
You know, I was on a panel show
341
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,400
in Australia within the past 12
months.
342
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,760
It was our equivalent of
Question Time, which is the
343
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:25,240
British show, a show called Q&A
here.
344
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,000
And every single panelist,
including the host, regarded it
345
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,440
as primer facie obvious that
when Elon Musk tweeted of the
346
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,480
British race riots that civil
war is inevitable.
347
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,880
I don't know if you remember
that tweet.
348
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,240
I remember the these riots,
yeah.
349
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:45,840
Do you remember the incident,
right?
350
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,680
That was racial incitement that
he should be prosecuted for.
351
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,000
Or that when, you know, the
likes of conservative columnists
352
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,600
like Douglas Murray would say,
we've been banging on about this
353
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,120
for years and saying that if we
don't get on top of race
354
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:01,800
relations and racial
integration, then there's going
355
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,600
to be some strife in the
streets.
356
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:08,080
That to simply identify the fact
that they've been warning about
357
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,440
it was itself evidence of
incitement.
358
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,800
And I was the only person on the
panel who was saying, hang on.
359
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,200
It's not incitement to say to
to.
360
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,760
It might be hysterical.
You might be being a hysterical
361
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,760
ninny.
You might be being a buffoon.
362
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,400
You might be being an idiot.
You might be being a little bit
363
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,640
racist.
But you're not It's not.
364
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,200
We should not be criminalizing
the opinions of people who are
365
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,840
throwing up flares to warn us of
something that they think is an
366
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,600
impending problem because it
rhymes a little bit with what a
367
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,400
racist would say.
Like, so I so in, in something
368
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,600
like that, in something like the
limits of acceptable discourse.
369
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,360
I think, I don't think anything
has changed.
370
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,040
I think we're still as as
blinded as blinkered.
371
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,720
I want to get to the broader
media landscape.
372
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,280
I want to talk about free
speech, all these things.
373
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,960
But I think it's important to
start with this project of yours
374
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,160
about uncomfortable
conversations and what it's
375
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,160
trying to do and whether that
project, whether it has legs
376
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,680
basically because.
Yeah, As I understand it, the
377
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,720
premise of uncomfortable
conversations is that these
378
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,480
conversations can allow us to
bridge polarized groups and
379
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,800
maybe allow people to change
their minds, even just a little
380
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,920
bit.
And I find that idea really
381
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:19,200
appealing.
I would love for it to be true,
382
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,280
but everything I know about
human psychology says that this
383
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:26,000
is going to be incredibly hard.
We, when we're challenged on our
384
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,680
views, tend to become more
entrenched in them.
385
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,200
And our views are often driven
by emotions and identity and
386
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,720
tribal allegiances, as you say,
rather than just by the facts.
387
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,480
So in your experience posting
comfortable conversations, how
388
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,040
do you actually observe that
people can change their minds?
389
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,280
Well, it's I think you're
slightly mischaracterizing the
390
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,480
object of the show.
It's called a safe space for
391
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,040
dangerous ideas and it should be
a place where I can freely I can
392
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,520
interrogate in a freewheeling
way a person about an issue
393
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,800
where So just to clarify with
the title, uncomfortable
394
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,280
conversations, some people
sometimes thinks think implies
395
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,040
the conversation is going to be
uncomfortable and that I'm going
396
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,440
to make someone uncomfortable or
the, you know, I'm going to get
397
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,520
on survivors of sexual abuse or
something and like to talk.
398
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,000
It's not that's not the point.
The point is not that I'm going
399
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,360
to have an uncomfortable
conversation necessarily in the
400
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:16,560
room because sometimes I'll
agree with the person and
401
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,720
sometimes we're just sort of
spit balling and fleshing out a
402
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,200
big idea.
The point is that we take some
403
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,880
kind of a dangerous question and
a question which, if someone was
404
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,960
to raise a strident opinion
about it at a pub or at an
405
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,240
office party or a Christmas
party or at a dinner party at
406
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,080
someone's house, everyone's
assholes would just clench up a
407
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,640
little bit.
That might be immigration.
408
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,560
That might be trans.
That might be gender equality.
409
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,320
That might be, you know,
indigenous rights.
410
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,640
That might be climate change.
And the point of uncomfortable
411
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,840
conversations is to create a
playground, a landscape in which
412
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,320
we can be completely heedless of
any of those concerns and just
413
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,000
explore wherever our intellects
take us without worrying about
414
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,440
offending people or triggering
any of those trip wires.
415
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,960
The object there is not
necessarily to change people's
416
00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:04,840
minds, but to allow people to
feel heard if there's a little
417
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,960
voice on their shoulder that
cause bullshit on some of the
418
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,880
mainstream orthodoxies or dogmas
from either side.
419
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,280
And in doing that, I think you
open up a space, a clearing in
420
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,840
which people can consider other
views with more compassion.
421
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,840
So it's less about.
It also depends.
422
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,120
I think this whole question
about changing people's minds is
423
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:25,560
really interesting.
And we fall into a trap with it
424
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,280
frequently, which is that we
regard people's beliefs as being
425
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,280
monolithically intense or
committed.
426
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,960
Like people have different
levels of commitment to
427
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:40,640
different kinds of beliefs.
And many of our beliefs are just
428
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,480
inherited from the soup of
general precepts that are
429
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,080
swirling around of in the tribe
that we're affiliated with.
430
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,200
We haven't thought them through
terribly carefully.
431
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,160
We're not that committed to
them.
432
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,040
If you tell me what you think
about climate change, I can
433
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,560
predict with a high level of
accuracy what you probably think
434
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,040
about corporate tax rates.
The two have nothing to do with
435
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:05,200
each other, right?
You.
436
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,280
I mean, there's no necessary
reason why you should why a
437
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,920
person who is on one side of
politics should tick off all of
438
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,600
the check boxes on their
particular side of politics just
439
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,600
because that is what their tribe
says that they should believe
440
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,560
about trans or climate or
taxation or whatever it might be
441
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,320
or animal rights or whatever.
Yet people do that.
442
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,400
People do cohere because we're
tribal beings.
443
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,200
And so we necessarily, you know,
we sort of outsource the hard
444
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,200
thinking to our group and to
authority figures who we agree
445
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,880
with.
The kinds of media that we read,
446
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,920
the kinds of things that our
parents and grandparents say,
447
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,800
the kinds of things that we
learn and the kinds of schools
448
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,240
that we go to, the kinds of
television shows that we watch,
449
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,320
the movies that we see.
You're right that there's,
450
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,200
there's no way I'm not engaged
in the process of let's grab a
451
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,280
bunch of people who are climate
deniers and let's get them to
452
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,960
come on, come over to our side.
I'm not interested in that.
453
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,080
Like, let them go off and be
climate deniers.
454
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,480
If you're a Nazi, go and be a
Nazi.
455
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,720
I'm not interested.
I'm interested in people who are
456
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:08,440
swimming in a soup where they
might be seeing bits of, well,
457
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,280
Hitler wasn't such a bad guy Or,
you know, well, you know, maybe
458
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,720
we need to round up trans people
or, oh, well, you know, maybe,
459
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,360
you know, JK Rowling is, is a
criminal who should be
460
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:21,480
prosecuted for her hate speech
or, you know, the flocksome and
461
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,360
jetsome of the information
ecosystems that we're swimming
462
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:26,800
in.
I'm just trying to tug people
463
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,920
into what I would call a radical
centrism or a kind of a radical
464
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,800
empathy towards an understanding
of where other people are coming
465
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:39,400
from so that we can, yeah, sort
of construct our own so that we
466
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,000
can make sense to each other,
essentially.
467
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,120
So So I'm on a mission of
rationality, reason, and sense
468
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:49,360
making rather than I have an
idea and it's the opposite of
469
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,560
your idea and I'm going to bring
you over to my side.
470
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,080
If you're really firmly
entrenched in your idea, then I
471
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,800
agree with you that there's
probably no point in trying to
472
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:57,240
change your.
Mind.
473
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,960
Yeah, I mean, absolutely, you're
not trying to pull people to one
474
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:02,200
side or another, but you're
trying to create a space where
475
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:03,880
it's possible for people to
move.
476
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,400
Yeah, that's right.
And on your show, have you seen
477
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,320
any particular examples of
people moving or yourself
478
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,720
moving?
Yes.
479
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,000
I mean, I am constantly in a
state of moving because I'm,
480
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,640
it's my job to sort of think
these things through.
481
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,960
I mean, I'm currently in a state
in a kind of crisis of not a
482
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,800
crisis positive, a constructive
crisis of confidence about the
483
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,080
whole issue of free speech,
which I just raised about.
484
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,440
Like this is something that I
sort of go back and forth on
485
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,160
maybe every three years.
I lived in New York City for the
486
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,760
majority of my adult life and
inherited a fairly American
487
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,960
attitude towards free speech,
which basically says you can say
488
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,960
anything that you want except
for, you know, let's all gather
489
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,320
together at 3:00 PM tomorrow and
bash up some, you know, Arabs or
490
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:47,720
something.
You can't say that if you,
491
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,040
especially if you go on and do
it.
492
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,600
But countries like Australia and
Western European countries have
493
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,480
an attitude which is closer to
the idea that we can all sort of
494
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,680
settle on a bunch of things that
we're glad to have put behind us
495
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,000
as notions and let's rule them
out at the public square.
496
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,800
We don't need to be having
conversations anymore about
497
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,280
whether or not, you know, Jews
are the cause of all the evil in
498
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,600
the world or whether black
people are inferior to white
499
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,960
people.
And so those things should be
500
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,480
considered a form of hate
speech, especially if they're
501
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,280
punching down.
And yeah, that I, my mind gets
502
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,600
changed on that pretty much
depending on who the last, last
503
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,680
convincing person I spoke to was
about it.
504
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,400
I can really see an argument for
just saying, you know what?
505
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,960
Stop hiding behind your John
Locke and your John Stuart.
506
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,960
Mel, on the question of like,
whether or not we need to be
507
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,600
platforming Nazis.
Like whatever downside arises
508
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,200
from having a slightly less
spicy and rambunctious public
509
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,440
square because there are fewer
Nazis in it is outweighed by the
510
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,320
upside of living in a pleasant
multicultural society where
511
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,240
people aren't afraid of, you
know, I don't know, having their
512
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,880
houses spray painted with, you
know, fuck Jews or whatever it
513
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,280
might be or fuck Muslims.
So that's an issue on which my
514
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,400
mind gets changed regularly.
I know that on I mean, there are
515
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,880
a bunch of issues that I could
rattle off animal rights the way
516
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,040
that we that we treat animals on
this is another good example, I
517
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,200
think, where people where you
can see the ability to puncture
518
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,600
people's received wisdom.
I think most people are raised
519
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,080
in an environment in which they
think fluffy, cute pets are
520
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,720
adorable.
And at the same time that
521
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,520
there's a hierarchy of, of
creatures on this planet.
522
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,080
And we sort of have a kind of
natural dominion.
523
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,320
And then it's a natural part of
the of the life cycle and
524
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,320
ecosystem of humankind for us to
use animals however we want to.
525
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,000
And then when you confront them
with the reality of what
526
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,480
industrial farming looks like
and get them to think with just
527
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,920
a little bit of empathy about
what it must feel like to be a
528
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,680
sentient creature in a pig
stall, people quickly come
529
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,520
around to that.
Abortion is another issue.
530
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,200
I mean, I was raised in the left
wing progressive house where it
531
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,880
was not a big issue.
It's never been a big issue in
532
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,360
Australia.
When I moved to the United
533
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:02,600
States, it was obvious to me
that this was just an issue of
534
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,080
women's reproductive rights.
After having kids myself, I'm
535
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,720
much more sympathetic to the
conservative point of view, not
536
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,720
that abortion should be
outlawed, but that there's a
537
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,960
that there's a genuine moral
question here that you're
538
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,920
dealing with.
And just yesterday I read I read
539
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,160
a piece in the New York Times
about Donald Trump recently
540
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,840
reverted back to the Biden era
policy on methoprestone, which
541
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,920
is this abortion pill.
So he's basically backtracked
542
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,680
from the hard right abortion and
taken a more moderate position.
543
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,960
And the New York Times reporter
wrote a line that said the Trump
544
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,360
administration has traditionally
been hostile to policies that
545
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960
are supportive of women's
reproductive health.
546
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,560
That's how the impartial,
objective Gray Lady of
547
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,680
journalism, the ultimate
authority on clear, unbiased
548
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:58,720
writing, articulates positions
that have an issue with
549
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:06,720
unlimited access to the death of
unborn babies.
550
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,400
Right.
Like, I'm not, I'm trying to
551
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,360
find a way to say it, that it,
that doesn't seem like it's
552
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,280
spinning, you know, the
conservative, the, the religious
553
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:14,920
conservative would say that it's
murder.
554
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,120
I'm not saying it's murder
necessarily, but there's a baby
555
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,040
there, and then it stops living.
And it would have been a person.
556
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,320
And now it's not a person
anymore.
557
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,400
It has its own DNA.
It has its own heartbeat.
558
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,720
It has its own little developing
mind.
559
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,920
All of us used to be that thing.
To frame that in The New York
560
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,960
Times, not an opinion piece in
the news pages as being Donald
561
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,760
Trump is hostile to policies
that support women's
562
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,960
reproductive health.
Yeah.
563
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,040
From which the infant is
completely absent from that
564
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,240
picture is just evidence of the
kind of echo chamber that I'm
565
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,760
talking about.
And so that's an issue on which
566
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,400
I, I wouldn't have noticed that
10 years ago.
567
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,560
And now I noticed that as being
a partisan way of framing.
568
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,280
Things that's really
interesting, talking about
569
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,280
issues that get people's butts
to clench up.
570
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:01,840
That is definitely one of those
ones, right?
571
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,480
And I wonder when you started
kind of talking to people about
572
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,480
this, when you're thinking, when
you're thinking about it, did
573
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,480
you have some initial kind of
resistance, a bit of
574
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,000
defensiveness?
I mean, animal agriculture is
575
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,840
another example where like when
you start talking to about it,
576
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,960
people often get a little
defensive, a little annoyed
577
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,040
maybe.
And I wonder how you, when that
578
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,280
comes up in your conversations,
how you avoid yourself kind of
579
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,240
falling into those defensive
traps, how you managed to stay
580
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,000
kind of open and receptive to
what other people have to say.
581
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,760
I think that's just a
characterological flaw that I
582
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,520
have that I don't, I'm too
unemotional to feel that I don't
583
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,120
have that gene.
I just, I, I'm a brain and a VAT
584
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,440
and I like playing with ideas.
And so I'm trying to think if
585
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,520
there would be an issue on which
I feel such commitment
586
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,000
emotionally that it would be
hard to contemplate.
587
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,480
I mean, I'm also quite
comfortable being a hypocrite,
588
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,240
Tom.
So I don't, you know, like I on
589
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,040
the issue of I'm not a
vegetarian, for example, so I
590
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,040
can at once sort of play on the
intellectual space of
591
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:08,680
understanding the monstrosity
and then go out and eat a steak.
592
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,560
Like, I, I, so I, I, yeah, I
have this ability to just sort
593
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,440
of detach my emotions from my
brain.
594
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,160
And at the same time, I think I
get a real joy from trying to
595
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,160
figure out what's true.
It's like doing a Rubik's Cube
596
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,440
to me or doing a Sudoku puzzle
or something.
597
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,960
It's like, you know, how, who,
how can I talk to people who
598
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,440
have thought about this
particular issue a lot more than
599
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,840
I have, especially if they're
strident about it?
600
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,520
And how can I poke holes in
what, you know, how, how can I
601
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,960
do my best job to play devil's
advocate with them in such a way
602
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,600
that we hopefully ratchet up to
arrive at a more reasonable
603
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,680
version of the truth that's
maximally comprehensible to the
604
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,160
maximally largest number of
people?
605
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,040
That that's kind of my
objective.
606
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,960
Anytime I'm talking about an
issue on the show, I want to
607
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,160
leave the conversation feeling
like people on both sides or any
608
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,080
side of that issue would hear
that and go, you know what?
609
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,720
That was a pretty good faith way
of taking into consideration all
610
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,080
of the objections that a person
might have.
611
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,680
And you mentioned how your mind
has been changed a lot through
612
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,440
through these conversations.
What about the guests and the
613
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,040
audience?
Have you seen changes there?
614
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,600
And who have you found more
likely to change their minds
615
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,800
through your conversations?
The people listening or the
616
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:19,880
person you're having the.
Conversation.
617
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,320
Oh, usually the people
listening, because the people
618
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,520
listening by definition are on
some kind of a quest and have
619
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,800
not reached a point of of
expertise at which they would be
620
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,440
able to be invited on a show
like mine.
621
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,640
So the guests generally, I'm not
trying to change their mind
622
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,600
about anything.
I'm sometimes trying to help
623
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,040
them to see a perspective that
they might be too strident to
624
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,880
see.
Almost never happens.
625
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,960
I can't think of any example of
it actually happening.
626
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,720
But the guests who are the most
open are guests, philosophers
627
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,120
really, and people who spend
their days thinking about
628
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,000
different things and who will
actually receive what I'm
629
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,760
saying.
And occasionally journalists as
630
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,480
well.
You know, a guest who was an
631
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,800
activist is obviously not going
to have their mind changed
632
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,880
because they have an enormous
sum cost in believing what they
633
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,920
believe and fighting for it.
In terms of listeners, the
634
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,640
majority of, you know, of
communications that we get from
635
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,280
listeners is I would say there
is a, there is 20 to 30% of it,
636
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,840
which is thank you for, you
know, framing things in this
637
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:17,920
way.
I hadn't really thought about it
638
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,120
that way before.
So now my mind is open to
639
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,960
thinking about it in a way that
I hadn't, that I hadn't
640
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,720
previously.
But then the majority of it is
641
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,960
just thank you for like, having
a conversation that we never
642
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,600
hear anybody anywhere else where
you're actually talking about
643
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,880
things that I sometimes think
about, but I can't quite
644
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,080
articulate to myself or that,
you know, I've kind of felt like
645
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,560
there's something quite
something a bit off about the
646
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,880
way that we're talking about,
you know, this or that issue.
647
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,600
And the mainstream press seems
sort of simplistic, but I hadn't
648
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,560
quite figured out exactly why or
how.
649
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,240
And you know, so it's
refreshing.
650
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,320
So I believe that there's a bit
of mind changing going on, but I
651
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,400
think more than the mind
changing is an opening up of
652
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,760
considering of different points
of view rather than a binary
653
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,200
flip.
And in your conversations, a lot
654
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,600
of the a lot of the time you're
navigating political
655
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,600
disagreements.
And I think it's important to
656
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,719
poke under the hood of what's
going on that drives the
657
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,320
political disagreements.
Because if we're to try and
658
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,280
construct conversations where
it's possible for people to open
659
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,560
to new perspectives and maybe
changing their mind and
660
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,560
resolving those disagreements,
we need a theory for what's
661
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,600
actually happening here.
And I've come across a couple
662
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,239
competing theories. 1 is this
idea of mistake theory, which is
663
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,679
that political disagreement is
just about different
664
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:31,679
understandings of the facts.
If only everybody understood
665
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,000
economics 101, we would never
disagree about economics again.
666
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,120
And this.
Is so silly.
667
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,000
Oh yeah.
Well, there there's, I mean,
668
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,120
there's some level of appeal
because we we appeal to people
669
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,120
on the level of facts.
If we didn't think that mattered
670
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,600
at all, we wouldn't bother.
But the other perspective is
671
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,920
conflict theory, which is that
disagreements, political
672
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,960
disagreements, are fundamentally
just about conflicting material
673
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,960
interests.
And so when people are
674
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,840
disagreeing about economics,
it's because they're disagreeing
675
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,199
about what's good for their
faction.
676
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,480
And so obviously talking about
the facts is not going to sway
677
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,040
anyone.
And I think, you know, these
678
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,320
perspectives both have some
appeal to them and somewhat
679
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,080
explanatory, but are also a bit
silly.
680
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,280
And I think a really good
example of how they both fail is
681
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,640
the question of vaccines, where
we can't make sense of this
682
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,040
debate in terms of competing
interests.
683
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,520
Because if vaccines are
beneficial, then anti vaxes are
684
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,160
hurting themselves and their
children by depriving their
685
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,160
children of them.
And if vaccines are actually
686
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,400
really harmful, then it's the
pro vaxes that are endangering
687
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,040
their children.
Someone's making a horrible
688
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,800
mistake and is not arguing in
terms of their self-interest.
689
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,120
But as I think you've observed
on this very topic, mistake
690
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,080
theories is not right either.
Because even when the evidence
691
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,200
is pretty clear, presenting it
to people doesn't really change
692
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,600
their minds.
So something else is going on
693
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,640
and a compelling explanation
that I've come across is that
694
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:49,720
political disagreements are
largely about these deep
695
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,480
psychological needs that we have
to see ourselves as rational
696
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,880
good high status people who
belong to the rational good high
697
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,800
status group.
And so we develop political
698
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,600
views that allow us to meet
those psychological needs.
699
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,200
And so in the case of vaccines,
both the pro vaxes and the anti
700
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,680
vaxes can see themselves as
having intellectual superiority
701
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,480
of slightly different kinds.
So I want to know, do you agree
702
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,160
that there are these
psychological needs that are
703
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,520
important drivers of our
political views?
704
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,600
And if so, how do we construct
conversations that allow both
705
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,800
sides as political needs to be
met so that it's possible for
706
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,040
them to be open?
And that's good.
707
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,080
I mean, I like that way of
framing it.
708
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,320
I would go a bit further.
I don't quite agree.
709
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:30,720
The political battles are
definitely not about that.
710
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,520
So I don't think they're about
mistaken facts.
711
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,280
I don't think I I don't think
either of the first two
712
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,560
explanations are particularly
good.
713
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,520
Your last explanation is close,
but I would inject John Height's
714
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,480
work on values here, where I
really think that what's
715
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,720
happening when we get into
political disagreements is that
716
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:50,200
we have some basic values
differences at which are closely
717
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:55,720
correlated to those personality
metrics, which I Yeah, the big
718
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:56,800
part of.
Yeah.
719
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,600
Openness.
Conscientiousness.
720
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,640
Extroversion.
Neuroticism and.
721
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,320
Agreeableness, agreeableness,
yes, good job.
722
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,200
So along all of these metrics
you can place people and there's
723
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,280
a reliable correlation between
where you lie along those
724
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,240
metrics.
Openness is a, is a good easy
725
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,440
one to take right, your
instinctive openness to new
726
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,680
experiences and to other kinds
of things.
727
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,400
I rate very, very high on
openness.
728
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,800
I always love travelling, I love
multiculturalism, I love
729
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,760
different foods.
I love, you know, if you give me
730
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,200
a deep fried tarantula, I will
eat the deep fried tarantula to
731
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,800
see what deep fried tarantulas
taste like.
732
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,400
There are a lot of people who
aren't like that.
733
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,160
And those people are likely to
be political conservatives that
734
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,000
and they are likely to be less
comfortable with immigration
735
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,960
than I am.
And they are likely to have a
736
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,640
whole, you know, to be more
traditional.
737
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,520
And they're likely to, they're
likely to favour community over
738
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,600
diversity more.
And so anytime we're talking
739
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,680
about political issues, I I
think, you know, to follow up on
740
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,520
your example of vaccines that is
derived from feeling like you
741
00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,120
are, you're bucking what, you
know, elite hoity toity, fancy
742
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,760
pants people are coercing you
into doing and you own
743
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,960
responsibility for your own
children's lives and they're on
744
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,720
your own safety.
And you are doing your own
745
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,640
research and you are finding
community and meaning in a group
746
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,360
of people who are defying the
sheeple out there who are just
747
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,440
obedient nitwits and boobs who
are all complicit in this big
748
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,160
money, big drug company, big
pharma, big government public
749
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,280
bureaucracy scam to try to, you
know, puncture your children's
750
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:32,440
skin with needles and and ignore
and sideline any concerns that
751
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,880
you might have by dismissing you
as if you're a tinfoil hat
752
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,040
wearing Nutter.
That's because you're trying to
753
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,920
find a more communitarian and
holistic way of understanding
754
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,000
your health and your Children's
Health than big pharma wants you
755
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,000
to consider.
That is a world view that when
756
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,720
you articulate it like that,
even people who are pro vaccine
757
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:54,560
like myself can understand a bit
more than just saying are they
758
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,520
idiots who don't understand the
data?
759
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,240
The data isn't going to help if
that is your world view.
760
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,000
So you have to talk to people on
the basis of the world view and
761
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,800
their values rather than are
you're an idiot because Arta
762
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,200
says XYZ about ivormectin like
you're not going to get them
763
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:11,640
that way.
So I think a lot of, and
764
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,040
especially when it comes to
things like, you know,
765
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,600
diversity, equity and inclusion
or immigration or the
766
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,680
integration of migrant
communities or anything like
767
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,400
that, when we're talking about
data, we're just talking
768
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,480
straight past each other.
It's not about mistakes and it's
769
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,640
not about facts and it's not
about misunderstandings.
770
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,920
It's not about the actual rate
of, you know, migrant crime.
771
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,920
It's not about the whether or
not they should be quotas for
772
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,880
particular people in particular
professions.
773
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,120
It's about a clash of values and
the clash of instinct, people
774
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,840
who lie at different places on
those personality spectrums.
775
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,040
So to make progress, I wouldn't
say to necessarily change
776
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,800
people's minds, but to find a
collaborative way of working
777
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,040
together on a in a common mind
space, we have to be talking to
778
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,000
each other in the language that
the listener is going to
779
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,160
understand, right?
Which often means just to get to
780
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,320
the sort of strategy and nuts
and bolts of how you have
781
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,720
conversations that are most
likely to either change people's
782
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:03,880
minds or to make them more open,
more receptive to other points
783
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,840
of view.
You start by granting what the
784
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,480
person has that's right on the
fact in the fact universe so
785
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,840
that you can see, they can
immediately see that you're not
786
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,200
an other and you're not a them
and you're not antagonistic
787
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,840
towards their worldview and
their values.
788
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,400
So.
You know, if it's something like
789
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,840
vaccines, you don't start by
saying you're an idiot and the
790
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,400
science says X.
You start by saying, you know,
791
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,680
it's completely understandable
that we would have skepticism
792
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,080
towards what big drug companies
say because they have time and
793
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,080
again betrayed our trust and,
you know, and put profit before
794
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,760
people and governments make
mistakes and public health
795
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,000
bureaucracies make mistakes all
the time.
796
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,720
And it's also the case that, and
then you can start talking about
797
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:45,160
Andrew Wakefield and the hoax
about autism and the
798
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,080
misinformation in there.
And so, and then you can frame
799
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,200
it in a way of like to really be
responsible for our children's
800
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,320
well-being.
It is important for us to, you
801
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,480
know, follow this wherever it
leads And that, you know, so
802
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,920
there are many, many, many
people never be swayed.
803
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,120
But for the people on the
fringes, like I was talking
804
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,680
about before, the people who are
just kind of in the swirl of
805
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,520
like, Oh, well, I read this
thing on, I saw a thing on
806
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,000
Facebook that like there's
Mercury and blah, blah, blah.
807
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,600
You're much more likely to win
them over and to have them
808
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,640
believe you when you say that
there hasn't been mercury and
809
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,040
vaccines since whatever it was
1990, something like that.
810
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,080
If you start on a common
footing, and that common footing
811
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,920
always has to start from a place
of values and personal values
812
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,360
and personal, you know, instinct
rather than facts.
813
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,160
Yeah, I think that's very
interesting.
814
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,720
And you mentioned Jonathan
Height, It just reminds me when
815
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,040
his work on morality, he kind of
has these different moral
816
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,200
pillars.
And as you say, he points out
817
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,000
that liberals and conservatives
actually quite differ on these,
818
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,200
that everyone shares this kind
of really key pillar of
819
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,000
fairness.
And it seems like whether you're
820
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,640
a liberal or a conservative,
fairness is like a really key
821
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,520
value for like almost all people
in almost all societies with
822
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,600
almost all income levels, which
is I think it's really
823
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,120
interesting.
And I wonder if that's kind of
824
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,040
the place that we can sort of
bring ourselves together and we
825
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,520
can have these conversations and
focus them around these actually
826
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,880
shared values that almost all of
us really do have.
827
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,320
Yeah, I like that.
I think I do think fairness is
828
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,080
the kind of the value to trump
all other values because it is
829
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,280
so universally held.
I mean, part of the problem of
830
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,640
the culture wars at the moment
is that up until the sort of
831
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,040
late 2000s and early twenty
10's, and you know, this
832
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,600
accelerated into the late twenty
10s with the the George Floyd
833
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,680
protest in the States and the
social justice reckoning
834
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,680
thereof.
The left had a kind of monopoly
835
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,240
on fairness.
It would have been obvious to
836
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:38,240
someone who you spoke to in
2010, for example, or 2008, you
837
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,880
know, which side of politics is
more concerned about fairness
838
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,560
than the other.
I mean, it would be a no
839
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:43,720
brainer.
It would take you less than a
840
00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:45,840
second to respond.
The left stretching all the way
841
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,520
back, you know, that was that
was the left's whole bag was
842
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,720
egalitarianism and fairness.
But the whole concept of
843
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:53,200
socialism, that's the whole
concept of communism, even when
844
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,520
it's deeply unfair, it, it
shrouds itself in the rhetoric
845
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,280
of fairness.
And conservatives would have
846
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,360
been more comfortable with a
certain amount of inequality and
847
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,440
unfairness in the interests of
productivity and heroism and
848
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,800
whatever, some kind of
Nietzschean conception of
849
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,160
people.
You know, he wasn't big on
850
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,280
fairness.
And then the left kind of
851
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,040
abandoned that because there was
a feeling that traditionally
852
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,880
marginalized communities and
people who'd been historically
853
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,480
shot upon were not progressing
fast enough on the basis of a
854
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,880
merely egalitarian conception of
humanity.
855
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,000
And so the Barack Obama was
really the last major public
856
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,280
figure in America who still
articulated a vision of the
857
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,240
world.
If you go back and listen to the
858
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:36,200
speech that first put him on the
political map, which was his
859
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,920
speech to the 2004 Democratic
National Convention when he was
860
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,240
a a senator of Illinois.
He gives this incredible
861
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:45,360
barnstorming speech, which
became the template for the
862
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,000
speech that he gave a Brazilian
times in the in the run up to
863
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,960
his his winning Democratic
primary in 2008, which ends with
864
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,120
this great soaring rhetoric
about, you know, there is no red
865
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,080
America or blue America.
There is no black America or
866
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,480
white America.
There is just the United States
867
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,360
of America.
And the crowd roars and the
868
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,120
confetti comes down and you
know, God save America goes
869
00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:06,680
blasting out the speakers and
everything.
870
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,200
It gives you a chill.
It's a really egalitarian and
871
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:16,960
unifying and Univision of what
is possible in conceiving of
872
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:24,640
ourselves as a unified demos.
That gives way in the 20 tens to
873
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:30,080
a much more antagonistic and
fiery vision of identitarianism
874
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:36,080
where movements like the trans
rights movement and Black Lives
875
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,280
Matter say this is all
foolishness, we are never going
876
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,880
to be unified.
The idea of fairness and
877
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,600
egalitarianism has always just
been a smokescreen for straight
878
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,960
white males to entrench their
own power by saying, look, we're
879
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,760
all equal now, right?
I mean, the don't worry about
880
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,720
the 400 years of slavery and
don't worry about the
881
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:55,600
patriarchy.
This is, you know, you, you,
882
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,640
you'll find now that you're
allowed to, you know, join the
883
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,280
workforce just like everybody
else.
884
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:03,680
And this this critique said,
well, yeah, but how do you still
885
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,680
explain the lack of female CEOs?
How do you explain the lack of
886
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,400
people of colour in, you know,
corporate C suites?
887
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,280
We need a more aggressive
understanding of justice and
888
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,240
that needs to be essentially a
conception of society as being a
889
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:20,360
bunch of identity groups who are
all fighting for a larger share
890
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:25,040
of a finite pie.
And that conception of the left
891
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,760
that I think derailing of
leftism from an old kind of, I
892
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,680
don't know, Christopher Hitchens
or you know, even Bernie Sanders
893
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,120
idea of the the left which
Marian and universalist into one
894
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,960
which is more identitarian and
battle heart and much more
895
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,480
censorious and judgmental.
Yeah, sorry.
896
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:47,720
Yeah, there's a.
There seems to have been a shift
897
00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:50,960
which I find really
disappointing, from trying to
898
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,480
get rid of hierarchies and in
inequalities between different
899
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,560
groups to just trying to invert
them which seems to completely
900
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:58,600
miss the point.
Yes.
901
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,840
Or at least the I mean, look,
they started out with the
902
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,840
rhetoric of fairness.
So to Tom's point, the fairness
903
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,800
was always the justification for
things like quotas and diversity
904
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:13,040
policies and equity and
inclusion, which is noble
905
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,920
insofar as it goes, but it has
become quite dogmatic and quite
906
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,760
orthodox.
And the reason I'm pausing is
907
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,440
because the difficulty of
getting everybody on page with
908
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:30,160
fairness is that a large chunk
of the progressive left has is
909
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,120
advocating for a way of thinking
about ourselves as Black people
910
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,040
or queer people or trans people
or, you know, migrants or, you
911
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,480
know, whatever it might be.
That is actually antithetical to
912
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:44,080
fairness.
I mean, how would you articulate
913
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:49,560
the view of a far left
genderqueer person in terms of
914
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,640
fairness?
They don't actually want
915
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,840
fairness.
What they want is special
916
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,200
consideration.
They want a minimum number of
917
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,600
people of colour to be in every
organization.
918
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,600
They want a minimum number of
women to be on every board.
919
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,760
They want religious people to
have to teach their kids that
920
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,280
genders are just in your head.
Like it is inherently divisive
921
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,120
now, which is not to only blame
the left.
922
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:16,920
The right has had this all
along.
923
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:18,760
I mean, the right invented
cancel culture.
924
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,240
You know, the, it was, it was
not true.
925
00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:24,560
The left that was hysterical and
censorious about trying to ban
926
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,360
things and curtail what people
can say.
927
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,120
The people who wanted to ban the
Life of Brian were on the right,
928
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,360
on the left, You know, the
hysteria and violent video games
929
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,720
or whatever in the 1980s.
It was all right wing people.
930
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:38,080
It's just that we expect that
from the right, we expect them
931
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,440
to be hysterical censorious
ninnies.
932
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,280
And over the past 15 years or
so, it's unfortunate that the
933
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,880
left has become the ultimate
censorious ninnies on a lot of
934
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,600
these issues.
But I, I basically agree with
935
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,560
you, Tom, that if we can find a
way of framing things in terms
936
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,560
of fairness, so that you say to
the, you know, I, I don't know,
937
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,600
I'm trying to think of a way to
I can, I can more easily do it
938
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:04,040
in the other direction where you
can imagine saying to the JK
939
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,320
Rowlings of the world, I
understand that it's important
940
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,520
to you that women maintain their
female early spaces.
941
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,560
So, you know, you don't want
people with penises to be in
942
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,520
women's prisons and women's rape
shelters.
943
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,240
And at the same time, we're
talking about a community that
944
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:21,960
has been historically
disadvantaged and
945
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,920
disenfranchised.
So it's important, you know,
946
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,200
don't you think that the fair
thing to do is for, I mean, the
947
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,920
problem is it's going to get me
in trouble to say this, but I
948
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,440
think she is actually on the
fair side of this.
949
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,040
I don't think she does want
discrimination.
950
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:34,840
I mean, she's never said that
she wants discrimination against
951
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,600
trans people.
She wants a definition of women
952
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,760
be a biological one.
But she doesn't want she's got
953
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,680
no truck with people who are
beating up trans people in the
954
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,240
streets.
Well, I think that's sometimes
955
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:47,360
the point, isn't it?
That like to your point earlier
956
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,040
about we're talking past each
other often.
957
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,760
Actually, when you get down to
it, we agree on quite a lot.
958
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,560
And it's just because people
frame these arguments in
959
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,880
different ways and end up
talking past each other that it
960
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,160
looks like we're disagreeing
more in fact, than we are.
961
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,160
So I think this is a really good
example, right where people are
962
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,760
just one side is emphasizing the
rights of the important rights
963
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,320
of women.
The other side is emphasizing
964
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:13,800
the important rights of trans
people.
965
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,880
But both sides fundamentally
agree that both of these groups
966
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,800
have rights.
Both of those sets of rights are
967
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,040
whether of protecting,
respecting.
968
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,000
And it's just a question of
really at the edges, how do
969
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,000
those when those do directly
clash?
970
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:29,840
Yeah, I mean, I think that's
true.
971
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,520
And I thought that's true among.
I mean, obviously we the
972
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,680
elephant in the room here is the
social media algorithm that
973
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,480
drives us to only say things
that we agree with or and that
974
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,160
caricatures things that we don't
agree with to demonize them and
975
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,520
make them look as ridiculous as
possible so that we'll engage
976
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,720
with them and comment on them
and get angry at them and share
977
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:50,920
them and so on.
But the my gut tells me that
978
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:55,600
you're right, Tom, and that
basically 90% of normies who
979
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,120
aren't super online are on the
same page about trans people,
980
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,280
which is there's historically
always been this tiny minority
981
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,960
of people who feel from a very
early age, like they're born
982
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,280
into the wrong body.
And the only way that they can
983
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,800
live a flourishing life is for
that psychological gender to be
984
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,360
enacted physically and for them
to have all of the medical
985
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:16,920
support.
And we shouldn't discriminate
986
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,840
against those people for being
different.
987
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,720
I think almost everybody agrees
with that and probably almost
988
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:27,840
everybody agrees that a woman
who has been raped or in an
989
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,640
abusive relationship and who
goes to seek help in a women's
990
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:36,680
only rape shelter, which is only
for women, should be free from
991
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,240
people with penises in that rape
shelter, even if those people
992
00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:44,200
identify as female.
So somewhere between those two
993
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,560
extremes, we're all, we're just
working around the edges.
994
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,680
What again, to come back to my
critique of the left is I
995
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,760
actually think that, you know,
over the past 15 years, it's
996
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,160
been the JK Rowling's of the
world.
997
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,800
Although I have problems with
how strident she's become of
998
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,040
late.
Her original goal was perfectly
999
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:06,800
consistent with the first
premise that I just articulated,
1000
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,920
which is that there are some
people who deserve our
1001
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,000
compassion and who deserve our
support in transitioning.
1002
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:18,000
It was the other side, the
extreme trans activist side,
1003
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,600
many of whom are not trans, by
the way, many of whom are
1004
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,560
university educated, well
meaning straight white males who
1005
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:25,320
are trying to prove that they're
on the right side of history.
1006
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:32,160
Who was refusing to consider the
no penises in rape shelters and
1007
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,080
no penises in prisons and no
penises in women's elite sports
1008
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,400
position.
And I, my instinct is that 90%
1009
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,240
of people are in this middle
spectrum somewhere.
1010
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:50,120
But when I speak to Americans,
American people on the heterodox
1011
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:54,200
left, they say that's not true.
That's not true in the
1012
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,520
progressive circles in
California and New York that
1013
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,160
specifically on trans at least,
and also on immigration.
1014
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:06,040
There is a large minority of
people on the left who think it
1015
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,080
is an easy open and shut case
that trans women are women, full
1016
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,200
stop.
We're not going to go any
1017
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,600
further than that to interrogate
whether or not we should be
1018
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,120
discriminating against them from
getting their balls waxed at a
1019
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,960
female only salon or something.
All of that is just right wing
1020
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,040
obfuscation and his and
hysterical fear mongering.
1021
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,920
So just shut the fuck up about
it and get on the program
1022
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,240
because the future is trans.
Yeah.
1023
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:31,280
I think there's a case to be
made that has been made that
1024
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,240
maybe we agree on 90% of things.
You're also hearing from some
1025
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:36,160
people that maybe we don't.
Either way, it certainly doesn't
1026
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,240
feel like we for the most part
agree with one another.
1027
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,880
And I think that's in part, as
you've mentioned, because
1028
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:44,160
perhaps this political
disagreements were once
1029
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,840
fundamentally about values, but
we've sort of self sorted into
1030
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,960
identities.
And now it feels like you can't
1031
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,640
concede an inch of ground to the
other group without betraying
1032
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,840
your own identity.
And so this makes me wonder what
1033
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,840
we can replace these identities
with that could be more
1034
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,160
productive.
And one candidate which I'd like
1035
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,200
to put forward and get your take
on is this idea of the identity
1036
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,440
as being a truth seeker, because
I think that figuring out what's
1037
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,960
true and changing your mind has
very little to do with
1038
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:14,440
intelligence.
We've all seen intelligent
1039
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,840
people that can use their
intelligence to defend their
1040
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:18,640
view from evidence kind of no
matter what.
1041
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,400
It's all about mindset.
And Julia Galif has this thing
1042
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,160
called the scout mindset.
I'm not sure if you've heard of
1043
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,160
this, but the idea is, you know,
you should approach the
1044
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,560
information landscape like a
scout seeking to build an
1045
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,240
accurate map, rather than a
soldier who is trying to defend
1046
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,080
and fight against an alternative
group.
1047
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:38,080
And for me, I have tried to
build an identity as a scout, as
1048
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,800
a truth seeker.
And not only is this an identity
1049
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,920
that can maybe take the place of
other less productive ones, but
1050
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,520
I think it could be really
valuable in and of itself.
1051
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:47,800
What do you think about?
That yeah, I like that.
1052
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,680
I like that a lot.
I'm not sure it's a replacement
1053
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,240
for a values based.
I'm pessimistic about the
1054
00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:57,960
ability to change people's basic
fundamental commitments,
1055
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,720
allegiances and motivations.
I think the scout is probably
1056
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,080
born, not made really like I
find it.
1057
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,840
I would find it.
It would be an interesting
1058
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,880
experiment to try to graft scout
them onto a soldier.
1059
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:13,800
Yeah, right.
I think that's probably
1060
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,840
temperamental, and it probably
arises out of your settings.
1061
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:18,600
I think it's a practice too,
though you can.
1062
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:19,760
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
1063
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,240
I mean, when I think about my
when I think about people who
1064
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:24,960
like uncomfortable
conversations, I mean the show
1065
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,120
not having an uncomfortable
conversation, then it's
1066
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,840
generally people who do value
open mindedness, intellectual
1067
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,600
curiosity, a little bit of sort
of spiciness.
1068
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,840
Something's a little bit
different from the mainstream.
1069
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,680
And I don't think that people
necessarily need to work hard to
1070
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,040
foster that instinct.
Like I don't think that these
1071
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,400
are people who would otherwise
be devout, like Greek Orthodox
1072
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,680
priests cloistered in an Abbey
somewhere who just, you know,
1073
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,200
find my show and go, oh, OK, now
I'm going to be open minded
1074
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,320
about everything.
I think there's a tribe of the
1075
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,320
tribalists, like there's a
collection of people who are not
1076
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:07,160
easily fitable interval into a
like, you know, a preset box who
1077
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:11,200
sort of just have always kind of
resented having to be told what
1078
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,960
to think and what check boxes
they have to take in order to be
1079
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,040
a good sort of soldier in the
marching army of the left or the
1080
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,920
right or, you know, whatever.
What is interesting about what
1081
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:26,880
you're positing is like, how
expandable is that group, right?
1082
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:32,320
Like, I mean, I see much of my
job in the media as stealing 10%
1083
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,400
off the left and 10% off the
right and 10% off the ideologues
1084
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,400
here and 10% off the woksters
here and 10% off the, you know,
1085
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,720
the alt writers over here.
And just the 10% that is
1086
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:44,920
winnable.
And it may be more than that.
1087
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,520
It may be 50%, it may be 60%.
There's certainly some portion
1088
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,640
that's not winnable, but
whatever portion is winnable,
1089
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,280
let's try to get them back onto
the playing field of actually
1090
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,680
kicking around ideas and being
scouts instead of soldiers.
1091
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,040
I don't think everyone can
operate that way, but I like
1092
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,320
that way of framing the center
of the terrain.
1093
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,400
So, yeah, we've covered how to
have uncomfortable
1094
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,040
conversations, but there seems
to be a shift going on in
1095
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,360
society at large in terms of
people's views on which
1096
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,560
conversations we ought to be
allowed to have in the first
1097
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,480
place.
You know, free speech has been a
1098
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,360
cornerstone value in the
democracies for as long as I can
1099
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,560
remember.
And for a long time, the idea
1100
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,120
that the prevailing narrative
has been that threats to free
1101
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:30,720
speech have come primarily from
the political left with cancel
1102
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:32,360
culture and deplatforming and
stuff like that.
1103
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,920
But now we have this right wing
US administration that, as far
1104
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,320
as I can tell, is willing to
deport people based on political
1105
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:43,280
speech and has loyalty tests for
their civil servants and will
1106
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,520
deny access to tourists that
have ever said anything negative
1107
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:47,400
about the government.
So it seems like we're now in a
1108
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:51,240
position where both sides,
politically speaking, are
1109
00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:54,280
willing to sideline free speech
when it conflicts with their own
1110
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,400
political ends.
This is concerning.
1111
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,720
And it makes me like, I, I, I
want to get your take basically
1112
00:56:59,720 --> 00:57:03,720
on whether what you think is
going on here is that people are
1113
00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:06,360
starting to value free speech
less, or perhaps people never
1114
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,800
really valued it all that much
and now there's just less of a
1115
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,400
taboo to speak up about that.
Or third option, maybe people
1116
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,520
will always have value free
speech, and that they still do,
1117
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,040
but we have come to view
political opponents as so
1118
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,400
dangerous that we actually have
to sideline it to make space for
1119
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,720
more.
I mean, .2 and .3 are the same
1120
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:25,600
point.
I think that people have never
1121
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,720
valued free speech and that
there are currently ideas that
1122
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,200
are so bad that this free speech
shouldn't apply to them.
1123
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:32,800
Those two things are actually
the same thing.
1124
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,880
And I agree with the format that
people have never really valued
1125
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,680
free speech.
I think 20% of the population
1126
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,520
since the Enlightenment have
been genuinely on board with
1127
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,840
like Voltaire's famous.
Probably apocryphal, you know,
1128
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,560
adage that I hate what you say,
but I will defend to my death
1129
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:54,520
your right to say it.
And the majority of people pay
1130
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,880
intellectual, give an
intellectual nod to the idea of
1131
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,880
free speech because they like
the idea of them and their
1132
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,280
community being able to say the
things that they like being
1133
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:02,880
said.
But at the moment something
1134
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,200
that's that arises that is too
different from what they
1135
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,360
believe.
Of course it lands as being
1136
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,880
dysfunctional or perverted or
anti against the common good.
1137
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,760
You know that things that are
extremely foreign just do land
1138
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,720
that way for human beings, for
all mammals, you know.
1139
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,560
And so I think the number of
people who would actually storm
1140
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,840
the barricades to defend their
opponents ideas, to say
1141
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,040
something that they absolutely
detest has always been a
1142
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,720
minority of people.
And you're in that minority,
1143
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,000
would you say?
Yes, because I think that is the
1144
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,440
underlying kind of supra value
that underpins civilization, our
1145
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,880
ability to wrestle with
uncomfortable ideas in
1146
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,280
provocative ways.
What's happening at the moment
1147
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:42,080
is really interesting.
Let's just separate legal
1148
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,480
consequences of speech from
social consequences of speech
1149
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,520
because, you know, the 1st
Amendment in free speech as it's
1150
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,920
enshrined by governments, means
that you can say anything and
1151
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,760
the government won't punish you
for it, won't put you in jail
1152
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,200
for it.
That's different from you can
1153
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,440
say anything and no other
private citizen or company is
1154
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,320
allowed to chastise you or
punish you for it, right?
1155
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,120
Which is which some people
sometimes confuse, like it's my
1156
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,520
free speech right to go on
Twitter and say such and such.
1157
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:12,880
No, it's not.
It's your free speech right to
1158
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,560
say that thing wherever you can
say it and not be penalized by
1159
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:20,280
the government for saying that.
But it's not your free speech
1160
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,200
right to force the owner of a
social media company to allow
1161
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:24,520
you to say it without booting
you off.
1162
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,040
It's not your free speech right
to go on television and say it
1163
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:28,880
without consequences.
It's not your free speech, right
1164
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,600
to say it on social media and
not get fired by your company
1165
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,560
for saying it.
Right to speak, but not to be
1166
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:36,760
amplified.
Necessarily.
1167
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,040
Well, that's one thing, but I'm
saying you have a right to
1168
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,400
speak, but you don't have a
right to not face consequences
1169
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,600
from people not liking that
speech.
1170
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:45,880
The amplified question is
another good point to raise,
1171
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,560
which is that we currently live
in a social media ecosystem
1172
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:52,600
where algorithms are selecting
for content purely based on
1173
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,960
whether or not it encourages
engagement, meaning whether or
1174
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,920
not it encourages you to share
it or like it or comment on it.
1175
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,360
That has one very reliable and
predictable consequence, which
1176
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,360
is that things that you see that
you're likely to agree with will
1177
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,800
pander to your beliefs and will
be good, enticing versions of
1178
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,160
that.
And things that you see that
1179
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,440
you're likely to disagree with
will be barbaric, demonized
1180
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,560
versions of that thing.
They will not be highly
1181
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:25,440
persuasive, nuanced, you know,
bridge building things because.
1182
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,600
Bridge building isn't, it
doesn't around you.
1183
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:28,920
It does not going to get you
engaged.
1184
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:31,000
You're not going to write an
angry comment in the comment
1185
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,360
thread of something that's
deeply reasoned, at least not as
1186
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,200
much so.
It's an inflammation machine.
1187
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,920
Social media, it's an
extremification machine.
1188
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,800
The recommendations in places
like YouTube and the For You
1189
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,120
thread on things like social
media where it's no longer
1190
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,120
people you're following, but
people who things that it's
1191
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,560
suggesting for you, which is the
entirety of Tik Tok's ecosystem,
1192
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,240
for example.
All of that is a rabbit hole
1193
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,520
producing system of echo
chambers and overlapping group
1194
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:03,800
think, you know, thought bubbles
and silos.
1195
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,520
So yes, there you've got
people's voices being amplified
1196
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,600
with no consideration for
whether or not they're
1197
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,880
constructive or even true or
whether they're deeply
1198
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:16,840
deleterious to the national
conversation.
1199
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,600
And those can be amplified and
disseminated even if they're
1200
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,880
especially perhaps if they're
total bullshit or inflammatory.
1201
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:26,720
So that's a major problem we
have to grapple with.
1202
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:30,360
That is not a sane way to manage
the information ecosystem of a
1203
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,200
civilization.
And it'll derail human
1204
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:35,160
civilization completely if we
don't get on top of that before
1205
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:38,200
artificial intelligence starts
making it even worse.
1206
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:42,480
So there's that, you know, don't
amplify divisive nonsense.
1207
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:45,200
But then there's what I'm
talking about also, which is
1208
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:49,520
just think clearly about the
difference between preventing
1209
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,840
the government from punishing
people for saying certain things
1210
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,400
or believing certain things, and
how tolerant we want to be in
1211
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,160
our civil Society of dissenting
views.
1212
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,280
As I was saying about the sort
of weird trajectory of the left
1213
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,960
over the past few decades or
past 15 years as it's become
1214
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,880
highly censorious and it's
fidelity to social justice
1215
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:10,880
dogmas rather than to a
freewheeling kind of social
1216
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:12,920
civil libertarianism that had
evolved.
1217
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:18,200
If it was the 1960s and you are
a young person who wanted to
1218
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,280
throw shit at the wall and
produce crazy art and make your
1219
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:25,400
parents upset and you know,
screw the system and fuck the
1220
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:29,240
man and overturn the chess
table, you're on the left.
1221
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:31,280
I mean that there was no doubt
about it.
1222
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,160
You know, the Throughout most of
history, the left has been the
1223
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:38,880
place where young dissenting
radicals can go to be edgy.
1224
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:42,840
The fact that the left ceded
that territory and turned into a
1225
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:47,280
bunch of finger wagging scolds
who wanted to police exactly
1226
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:51,120
what you said about BIPOC,
people of colour and, you know,
1227
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,960
members of the LBGDQIA Plus
community and, you know, make,
1228
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,040
you know, shame you if you
didn't put gender pronouns in
1229
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:00,920
your e-mail signature as a
corporation or the rainbow flag
1230
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:02,720
on your social media profile or
whatever it might be.
1231
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,160
That is a problem.
Because it means that all of the
1232
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:11,240
energy of youthful exuberance
and dissent is now on the right
1233
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:14,480
where you've got young people,
you know, people under 25,
1234
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,520
Republicans in the United States
at larger numbers than they've
1235
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,200
been in generations because they
think Donald Trump is a cool
1236
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:21,680
shit poster.
That's a worry.
1237
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,320
So it's worth noting that just
in terms of the cultural space
1238
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,960
of free speech, it is
unfortunate to me as a person of
1239
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:32,360
the left that the energy of kind
of free speech and shit posting
1240
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,800
and fun, playful
rambunctiousness now resides
1241
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:36,160
more on the right than on the
left.
1242
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:40,320
And it's also equally
unfortunate that on the question
1243
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,720
of government interference in
our speech and government
1244
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,440
punishment for what, For things
we can say we're seeing a
1245
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,560
resurgence of a traditionally
right wing phenomenon, which
1246
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,520
again now is on the right.
Again, for all of the
1247
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,600
sensoriousness of the left over
the past 15 years, they have not
1248
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,800
been using the government to
send dissenters to El
1249
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,600
Salvadorian prisons or put them
out of the country or, you know,
1250
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:02,000
seek the the tax office on them
or whatever.
1251
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:07,400
And now in Donald Trump, I think
we just see a resurgence of a
1252
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,680
traditional populist
authoritarianism that we've seen
1253
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:14,360
in, you know, at best the
Berlusconi's of the world and at
1254
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,440
worst the Erdogan's and Orban's
of or Pinochets at the worst of
1255
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,520
the world.
And whether or not America can
1256
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:24,480
get a handle on that before it
degrades American democracy and,
1257
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:28,400
you know, liberal civil life so
thoroughly that it becomes a
1258
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,240
semi authoritarian state is a
question that is open.
1259
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:36,680
So about final point on this, I
do think that is in part a
1260
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,520
consequence of the lack of
respect for free speech that the
1261
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,400
left has exhibited over the past
10 or 15 years.
1262
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:45,960
You know, this is not to blame
the victim here, but I have been
1263
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:50,560
banging on for since at least
2012 when I started working at
1264
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:55,600
HuffPost Live in New York City
about the risk of framing
1265
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,920
everything as identities, the
risk of being too intolerant
1266
01:04:59,920 --> 01:05:04,400
towards conservatives, the risk
of shaming people for not being
1267
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:09,360
sufficiently signed up to our
ideological points of view.
1268
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:12,960
And I've been warning that you
can only push things so far
1269
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:14,440
before there's going to be a
backlash.
1270
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:19,200
And trust me, it might sound
great in you're like, trans
1271
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:23,520
women of colour collective to
paint your flags and go raw,
1272
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:27,360
like, white men are pigs and
like, you know, male men should
1273
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:29,520
all die.
And there'll be a certain period
1274
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:31,160
of time in which people will cop
that.
1275
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,680
But it's a dangerous game to
open the Pandora's box of
1276
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,400
turning the volume up on
people's identities.
1277
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:44,000
And there's only so long that
white males are going to accept
1278
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,200
being told that they're the only
identity group in the world that
1279
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:52,520
isn't allowed to feel proud of
their sex or gender or race.
1280
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,200
So like, play this game with
caution.
1281
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,120
And we have not been playing
this game with any modicum of
1282
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,080
caution whatsoever.
The identity was that the left
1283
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,240
unleashed are coming back to
bite us all in the ass.
1284
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,320
And I don't think you would get
the anti free speech
1285
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:12,400
authoritarianism of Trump right
now had you not had the hyper
1286
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,920
censorious kind of self
appointed guardians of what is
1287
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:20,560
acceptable speech introducing
this new kind of identitarian
1288
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:25,040
social justice orthodoxy over
the prior decade or two.
1289
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,120
And that, yeah, I think the
solution isn't to encourage
1290
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:30,160
everyone to be proud of their
identities because these are
1291
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:32,240
just arbitrary things at the end
of the day.
1292
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:35,800
I think we should be encouraging
people to be proud of things
1293
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,200
that are less arbitrary, like
being truth seekers, for
1294
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:39,440
example.
Yeah, absolutely.
1295
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,880
So one last area I want to
quickly cover with you is the
1296
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,360
media landscape that
uncomfortable conversations sit
1297
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:47,520
within.
And just to frame the crisis
1298
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,880
that traditional media is in
with a sobering stat.
1299
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:55,600
In the UK in 2022, just 29% of
people said that they trusted
1300
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,320
journalists.
And this had them beating real
1301
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,520
estate agents who were at 28% by
just 1%.
1302
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:02,960
So when you're in that close to
real estate agents in a bad way.
1303
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:07,480
And even more depressing is that
this 29% was the peak, the 40
1304
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:10,320
year high of trust in
journalists in the UK.
1305
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:14,120
And so a lot of people have
pointed to new media podcasts,
1306
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:16,920
YouTube sub stacks and stuff as
the kind of alternative.
1307
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:21,160
And these can be great
alternatives to a dry, tired
1308
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:23,360
newspaper opinion piece where
everyone's saying the same
1309
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,960
thing, but it can't really fill
the shoes in terms of covering
1310
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,360
breaking news and investigative
journalism.
1311
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:32,520
So my question is, what do you
think a healthy media landscape
1312
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:34,880
looks like?
And what relative role should
1313
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,240
these two types of media play
given their comparative
1314
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,480
advantages?
Well, the new media will never
1315
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,520
be able to do investigative
journalism properly.
1316
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:45,600
It doesn't have the resources to
hold politicians to account by
1317
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:48,240
actually investigating, you
know, pouring over their tax
1318
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:50,200
returns.
You know, it doesn't have the
1319
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,560
resources to station people in
foreign bureaus and see what's
1320
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:55,800
actually going on the ground in
Sudan or something.
1321
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:59,520
So conventional legacy media
outlets are indispensable for
1322
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:03,120
investigative journalism and for
on the ground fact based
1323
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,960
reporting.
I think they will find a way to
1324
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,320
continue doing that.
Well, you know, publications
1325
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,040
like The New York Times and The
Wall Street Journal, both with
1326
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:13,680
different political violences,
still do incredible
1327
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:15,880
investigative journalism and
great reporting.
1328
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,359
And they don't lose money
anymore because they managed to,
1329
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,880
you know, people buy Wordle and
that funds their subscriptions.
1330
01:08:22,359 --> 01:08:23,920
And then in the new media
ecosystem.
1331
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,600
And I'm really optimistic at the
moment because of the resurgence
1332
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:28,920
of this subscriber model that
you're seeing on Sub Stack,
1333
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:32,200
which is not without its flaws.
I mean, it's, I think, yeah, you
1334
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:36,800
know, it is important to have
editors and managers and board
1335
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:38,160
members.
Like there is a utility in
1336
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:40,640
having an accountability
structure in information
1337
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:43,920
dissemination.
I don't think that I need it
1338
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:46,160
because I'm, you know, like not
to toot my own home, but I am a
1339
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:47,399
professionally trained
journalist.
1340
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:50,359
I've worked in newsrooms my old
enough now that I've done my
1341
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:53,240
10,000 hours of like traditional
reporting.
1342
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:57,319
But there is a risk that when
you've got, you know, everybody
1343
01:08:57,319 --> 01:08:59,560
just opening up their own
platform and essentially
1344
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,279
becoming their own, you know,
news dissemination outfit with
1345
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:07,880
no editorial oversight and no
fact checking that you're going
1346
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:10,960
to end up with a mad cacophony
in which everybody is captured
1347
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:13,040
by their own audience and just
telling them what they think
1348
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:14,640
they want to hear.
That's a liability.
1349
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:17,479
But I don't think that liability
is nearly as bad as the
1350
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:19,760
algorithm liability.
Like if the alternative to the
1351
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:22,359
legacy media is either we find
out about what's going on in
1352
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:26,040
Gaza from influencers on TikTok
who are dancing to us and
1353
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:29,319
talking about genocide.
Or we get it from a bunch of,
1354
01:09:29,359 --> 01:09:33,560
you know, sub stackers who may
be imperfect but are groping
1355
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,479
their way towards trying to have
a conversation with people who
1356
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,840
who respect them enough to
actually pay money on a monthly
1357
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:41,520
basis to hear what they have to
say.
1358
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,040
I'd choose the latter.
Yeah, I think that's a really
1359
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:48,240
important point.
There's a Cal Newport who's does
1360
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,439
a lot of work on techno
criticism, makes this point a
1361
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:54,000
lot, which is this move back to
subscription model really is a
1362
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,160
potentially really positive
break with this sort of
1363
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:58,800
algorithm driven.
I mean, the kind of
1364
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:02,160
conversations that you have
would not be necessarily the
1365
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,760
best things in the algorithm
because you're trying to bring a
1366
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,120
nuance.
They're not.
1367
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,800
Just look at my YouTube numbers
like you know I've got big.
1368
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:11,720
They're pretty good.
But they're nothing like what my
1369
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,440
podcast numbers are when people
have the OR my sub stack
1370
01:10:14,440 --> 01:10:16,880
numbers, when people have the
ability to actually tell each
1371
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:20,800
other about my show and navigate
manually to an old fashioned
1372
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:24,960
podcast feed or to sub stack and
like enter in their name and
1373
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:26,840
receive my show.
People who are willing to do
1374
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:30,000
that.
There are lots of those, but the
1375
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,520
algorithm doesn't catch it.
It really doesn't.
1376
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,200
They really, you know, the
algorithm on TikTok and YouTube
1377
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,720
and places like that and not
they're just dead to my show.
1378
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:40,120
So I think you're right.
I mean, I and I could change
1379
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:41,520
that.
Of course, I could go down the
1380
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:44,960
diary of Aceo path or the
trigonometry path.
1381
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:47,440
You know, I love those guys, but
they're much more focused than I
1382
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:50,520
am on generating click bait
content with hysterical
1383
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,680
headlines that will catch an
algorithm and I frankly, I'm too
1384
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,320
old to care about that shit.
Yeah.
1385
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:58,320
I mean, we need the stuff that
that you make, right?
1386
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,760
But not quite so sure we need
trigonometry, but like you know.
1387
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:04,400
Well, you've been very generous
with your time.
1388
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:06,480
It's been great to chat through
some of these topics.
1389
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:08,600
You must be tied to death with
them because it's what you talk
1390
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:10,040
about all day.
But I feel like the conversation
1391
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:12,600
could go on for a million years.
But the final question I want to
1392
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:17,600
ask you is what perspective that
you see out there in the world
1393
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:19,560
would you most like people to
change their minds about?
1394
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:25,440
I would like people to this may
not be a mind change, it may be
1395
01:11:25,440 --> 01:11:29,600
an emphasis change.
Have more respect and gratitude
1396
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,240
for what liberal democracy is
and for the systems that have
1397
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:37,040
been painstakingly put in place
since the Enlightenment and more
1398
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:42,040
recently since the Second World
War to generate the stability
1399
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:46,200
and wealth that we enjoy in the
Western world, much of the
1400
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:48,400
Eastern world, if you include
Japan and South Korea.
1401
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:52,040
I, I think we're at a moment
where we risk thinking that it's
1402
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,640
cute to throw shit at the walls
and see if we can do things
1403
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:56,640
better.
Because, and this comes from
1404
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:58,440
left and right.
Right on the left, there's this
1405
01:11:58,440 --> 01:12:01,880
agitation and impatience with
like, you know, the whole system
1406
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:05,080
being rigged by big corporations
and white males to keep people
1407
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:06,560
down.
And like, you know, oppressed
1408
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:08,760
and marginalized communities
have never had it worse.
1409
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:11,520
And like we're under attack on
the right and on the right,
1410
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,480
there's this, you know, kind of
burn it all down ethos of like
1411
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:18,440
this big bloated state.
And we need doge to come in and
1412
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:21,000
hack everything and let's pull
out the chainsaws and, you know,
1413
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:24,440
get these fancy hoity toity
elitists out of Washington DC
1414
01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:26,680
and all the lobbyists and the
corrupt politicians, you know,
1415
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:29,960
have to be shown the door and
people power and Farage and
1416
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:35,600
Brexit and these two instincts.
I worry that every century or
1417
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:41,240
so, humanity just has to like
burn itself to the ground and
1418
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:44,280
kill 100 million people and then
realize what actually matters
1419
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,560
and go, oh shit, we shouldn't
have played around with that.
1420
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,080
Let's put in a box and lock it
up for a while.
1421
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:51,480
Those passions.
And we did that after World War
1422
01:12:51,480 --> 01:12:57,080
2, created NATO and the United
Nations and certain and mutually
1423
01:12:57,080 --> 01:12:59,080
assured destruction and certain
taboos.
1424
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:01,640
And, you know, it's sort of a
geopolitical order that we are
1425
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:04,600
now unpicking. the United States
is in particular.
1426
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:09,120
And yeah, I just don't want us
to open the box totally again.
1427
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:11,800
I mean, I totally like survey
show that particularly young
1428
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:15,160
people that faith in democracy
is the lowest it's been and
1429
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:16,840
democracy is clearly better than
the alternative.
1430
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,080
But I think people's
dissatisfaction is coming from a
1431
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:21,120
place where democracies haven't
been serving them.
1432
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,480
And instead of saying you, you
can't tear it down, just make
1433
01:13:24,480 --> 01:13:27,120
peace with it as it is.
We should be making democracy
1434
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:29,400
something that deserves to have
people's faith.
1435
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:31,360
We need to.
Reply but I also say liberal
1436
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:33,520
democracy intentionally, not
just democracy.
1437
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:35,920
And I could even if it's easier
to take the word democracy out
1438
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:39,200
and say liberalism meaning a
tolerance for other people's
1439
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:43,040
ideas, a celebration of
pluralism, a celebration of
1440
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:45,120
difference in a non dogmatic
way.
1441
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:47,640
Not like finger wagging, you
have to like respect my
1442
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:49,800
difference.
But like just sort of the
1443
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:51,600
world's a big place.
There are going to be people who
1444
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:53,320
aren't cool with difference.
There are going to be people who
1445
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:55,120
are cool with difference.
Part of being cool with
1446
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:56,880
difference is being cool with
people who aren't cool with
1447
01:13:56,880 --> 01:13:59,800
difference.
Like, you know, liberalism in
1448
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:04,880
its classical small L sense of a
live and let live ethos and a
1449
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,400
desire to not impose one's own
vision of the world on your
1450
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:14,320
fellow citizens and the cohesion
as a demos nonetheless, in spite
1451
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:16,840
of all of your differences, a
sense that we're pulling in the
1452
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:19,840
same direction and that, you
know, we have a universalist
1453
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:23,400
view of all people being
basically treated equally.
1454
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:27,080
And, you know, we're all in this
to try to create a rising tide
1455
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:30,640
that will lift all boats and
like, be fair to each other.
1456
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:33,600
That to me transcends democracy.
If you could achieve that
1457
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:37,760
without democracy, I would ditch
the democracy sooner than having
1458
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:41,080
an authoritarian style of
democracy where 51% of the
1459
01:14:41,480 --> 01:14:45,160
population rules tyrannically
over the remaining 49%.
1460
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:47,280
I just don't think you can do it
without democracy in the long
1461
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:49,160
term.
It's liberalism for me all the
1462
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:50,040
way.
Preach.
1463
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:52,840
OK.
Well, thanks so much for joining
1464
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:54,520
us, Josh.
It's been a delight, thanks for
1465
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:57,160
having.
Me.
1466
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:59,280
OK.
So we're back after our
1467
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:03,360
conversation with Josh.
And as always, Aiden, what did
1468
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:05,880
you find most interesting about
that conversation we just had?
1469
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:07,840
Yeah, it was a.
It was an interesting one.
1470
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:10,960
One thing I did want to get to
the bottom of is whether
1471
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:14,760
uncomfortable conversations like
Josh tries to have a useful tool
1472
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:17,160
for changing people's minds.
And it seems like what we kind
1473
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:21,080
of came to agree on in the
conversation is that if you are
1474
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:23,440
somebody that tries to kind of
enter into these conversations
1475
01:15:23,440 --> 01:15:26,240
with other people, if you are
open to changing your mind and
1476
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:29,240
certainly there a way of doing
it, it's probably quite unlikely
1477
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:31,680
that you're going to change the
mind of the person you're
1478
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:34,680
speaking to because people
generally aren't all that open
1479
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:36,080
to it.
And especially if they're being
1480
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:38,080
disagreed with, people tend to
close off and actually become
1481
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:40,920
more firm in their views.
And so maybe the best place for
1482
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,760
these to be a, a good tool for
changing minds is when they are
1483
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:46,080
public conversations that other
people can follow, like Josh's.
1484
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:49,360
Because as he mentions, then
maybe you can pull 10% of the
1485
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:52,120
audience from either side to
really seriously consider the
1486
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:53,760
other view.
And I thought it was
1487
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:56,320
interesting, some of the
ingredients that we discussed
1488
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,280
that seemed to make this most
likely to succeed.
1489
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,440
One of which was to, instead of
just immediately dunking in the
1490
01:16:01,440 --> 01:16:03,920
other view, trying to kind of
empathize with it and start from
1491
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:06,800
a place of understanding why
somebody might have some of the
1492
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:08,120
intuitions.
That the other side has.
1493
01:16:08,480 --> 01:16:11,200
And give a strong case for it
rather than a kind of bad faith
1494
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:12,680
one.
Seems like a good idea.
1495
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,680
And the thing that was a bit
more new for me from this
1496
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:19,160
conversation is that it's
important to demonstrate that
1497
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:20,920
you maybe have some sort of
shared value.
1498
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:23,600
With the other side.
Even if the way that value plays
1499
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,720
out on this issue you don't
agree on, and you and Josh seem
1500
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:29,200
to agree, that one shared value
that cuts across the political
1501
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:30,840
spectrum is this one of
fairness?
1502
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:33,960
And so that could be kind of a
safe place to to start.
1503
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:37,960
What do you think?
Yeah, I think that's very fair.
1504
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:41,160
And I think there is a lack
sometimes of that kind of
1505
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:45,560
content, certainly in kind of
media that's addressing current
1506
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,240
affairs and what's going on in
the political discourse.
1507
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:52,680
So you often have either on the
one hand, shows where the the
1508
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:55,520
whole point is for just people
to sort of essentially fight
1509
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:58,000
each other and just like scream
at each other and you learn
1510
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:01,400
almost nothing from this.
Or you have shows where on the
1511
01:17:01,400 --> 01:17:03,600
other hand, they essentially
seem to agree on absolutely
1512
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:07,360
everything and to have people
modelling conversations where
1513
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:09,640
they disagree and they probe
each other's views.
1514
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:12,200
But in a constructive and good
faith sort of a way.
1515
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:14,760
I think is is important.
And we could do with having
1516
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,640
probably more of that kind of
thing in the sort of media
1517
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:19,720
landscape.
In discussing like how we can
1518
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:21,800
structure the media in a way
that allows people to make sense
1519
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:25,440
of the world and and be informed
citizens, I know that you think
1520
01:17:25,440 --> 01:17:27,920
that public broadcasters have a
positive role that they can
1521
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:29,160
play.
Why do you think this is the
1522
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:31,520
case?
And like, is that the solution?
1523
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,200
So I guess that depends what
what the problem is.
1524
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,360
But if you think about the sort
of the free market of the media
1525
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:42,600
and you know, companies that
produce news, the incentives for
1526
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:46,760
profit generally come down to
can I, especially today when we
1527
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:50,400
have an ad driven media culture,
come down to how many people can
1528
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:52,760
I get to watch my content or
engage with my contest?
1529
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:57,840
It's all about clicks and views
and that doesn't really
1530
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:02,600
incentivise careful analysis of
complicated problems.
1531
01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:07,000
It and it incentivises turning
the news into a kind of soap
1532
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:10,760
opera and a kind of, you know,
almost like sort of our sports
1533
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:13,960
team beat their sports team made
them look foolish kind of kind
1534
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:17,640
of approach to the news, which
is not helpful for us as
1535
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:21,800
citizens when we're trying to
engage with the complexity of
1536
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:24,240
the world in which we live.
So I think that having
1537
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:28,800
broadcasters out there who are
not bound by the same incentives
1538
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:31,280
are being funded differently and
so can produce more, more
1539
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:34,240
thoughtful media, media that
isn't simply trying to acquire
1540
01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:37,880
clicks is is really helpful.
But on the other hand, even
1541
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:39,160
though they are funded
differently, they're still
1542
01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:41,960
subject to the same pressures,
of course, because it doesn't
1543
01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:43,920
matter if you're producing
really nuanced, interesting
1544
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:47,280
content if no one listens to it.
And so I don't know how you
1545
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:52,120
really fix this because it's
really hard for anybody else to
1546
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:55,440
to compete in a meaningful way
with a kind of soap opera media.
1547
01:18:55,840 --> 01:19:00,400
What if you were to regulate all
of the non public media sources
1548
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:04,800
such that they couldn't lean
into the the worst of what the
1549
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:06,240
market incentives would push
them to do?
1550
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,640
Could that solve the problem?
Yeah, I think regulation could
1551
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:12,400
play a really strong role here
and I think when you think about
1552
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:14,360
all the government getting
involved in regulating the
1553
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,880
media, that sounds awful, right?
But in the UK, we have
1554
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:22,360
regulation of all of our TV
broadcast media.
1555
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:26,360
And you can see there's real
difference between what the kind
1556
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:29,120
of tone of our broadcast media
is and our print media in the
1557
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:31,520
UK.
So our print media is often
1558
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:34,320
extremely partisan, especially
on on the right.
1559
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:38,520
And our broadcast media is much
more politically balanced.
1560
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:40,520
They get other things wrong.
They still focus on the sort of
1561
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:44,240
soap opera of the news often
rather than substantive policy
1562
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:47,840
questions, things like this.
But there is a much greater
1563
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:51,520
degree of, of balance in
political balance in their
1564
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:56,400
coverage and more commitment to,
you know, the truth that in some
1565
01:19:56,400 --> 01:19:59,160
of our our print media.
And I think that this is largely
1566
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:03,280
down to the fact that they are
much more closely regulated and
1567
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:04,880
are required to hold up
standards.
1568
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:09,040
So I think that closer
regulation of media in general
1569
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:13,800
could provide a very positive
role in creating a healthier
1570
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:18,240
media ecosystem which.
Provides the real value of me of
1571
01:20:18,240 --> 01:20:21,480
news media, which is to create
informed citizens who can then
1572
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:24,160
make good decisions about what
kind of policies they want to
1573
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:27,440
vote for, what parties they want
to vote for, and engage in the
1574
01:20:27,440 --> 01:20:29,800
society in which they live in a
constructive way.
1575
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:32,360
Nice.
Well that is some glimmer of
1576
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:33,920
hope for the passport and the
media.
1577
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:37,160
Thanks for listening to Change
My Mind.
1578
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:39,880
We're a brand new podcast, so if
you liked what you heard,
1579
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:42,400
consider giving us a review or
sharing your favorite app for
1580
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:45,160
someone who might appreciate it.
We're always looking to improve,
1581
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:47,640
so if you have any feedback,
especially the critical kind,
1582
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,000
we'd love to hear from you.
Drop us a line at
1583
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:56,280
hello@changedmymindpod.com.
Change My Mind is produced by
1584
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:59,920
VIP and SJ with editing by
Harrison Wood and support from
1585
01:20:59,920 --> 01:21:06,960
frenchpressprasalwaysyoucanreachusbyemailinghello@changedmymindpod.com.