Jonathan: And we're getting off the railroad tracks just a little bit today because Kurt is a professional EOS implementer. And we are so excited to have him because he has got such a fantastic background. He has sat in the COO chair. He's been a CFO, he's been a CEO. So we've got a really talented individual with us today. And I'm joined by my business partner, Brent Killen of over thirty years. And we're just excited to have you, Kurt, and welcome to another episode of Build to Win.
Kurt Larsen: Well thank you guys. I'm super excited to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for that gracious introduction. Hopefully I can live up to part of that. but real super happy to to be here, my first podcast. So let's get after it.
Jonathan: let's do it. Well welcome and and I'll jump in right away and you know, why don't you just walk us through a little bit of your career, kind of where you came from and a little bit of the evolution.
Kurt Larsen: Sure. Well, I started out wanting to become a CPA, I had an older brother, older sister that were CPA. So I started down that path, graduated with this with my degree in accounting from St. Thomas, sat for the CPA exam past that and went to work at a company called Ernst and Young. So I started along kind of the finance accounting path. And I worked in accounting or finance positions for roughly my first ten years of my career. the last position I held was director of finance at a company called SmartCart. And for those of you who've ever seen the luggage carts in the airports, that's the that's the largest line of business is SmartCart. And was that was right up to about nine eleven I was I was running the finance department for for the business and then nine eleven happened which was obviously you know Very traumatic for our for our our country, but also a very big hit to our business. And it was at that point that I decided to move over from finance into operations, kind of take all those skills, financial skills and PLs and all that, and bring it out of accounting and bring it into the operation for SmartCart. And then I took the big risk of moving to operations, and it was at that point that I my my think I my growth as a person and in business really took off. And I worked for about ten years in in operations, culminating making a making it to the VP of ops position at Smart Cart. And then I really wanted to run a business and I got the opportunity. I got recruited to to run the business for Viking Engineering, which at the time was was owned by a single owner, family owner, call it. And I was brought in to to Viking to run the business for him, ultimately becoming, you know, I was brought in as the CFO, I think kind of to bring me in at the top level and learn the finances, run the finances first, ultimately. The plan was for me to become succeed him as president and CEO, and that's what happened. And it's in that chair, not only did I kind of cut my teeth and learn how to be a president and CEO, we were selling to mostly family businesses, and they wanted to buy and meet the owner when buying big pieces of expensive equipment. So I really kind of dug in and learned the sales side of the business as well. And then started, you know, doing all the things of implementing. You know, becoming professional sales staff and doing things in the business. So I really I'm really fortunate, but I've got like a third of my life in finance and accounting, a third in operations, and then a third pretty heavy sales stuff. So I've got a nice blended background, I guess. But yeah, that was my that was my route to eventually becoming president and CEO of a manufacturing company called Viking Engineering.
Jonathan: It's a pretty amazing career path and and trajectory. So, you know, thank you for sharing. And you brought up a name for our listeners out there. Kurt is from Minnesota and Brent and I are also from Minnesota. And Smart Part, Smart Cart, correct me if I'm wrong, Kurt, but they're a Minnesota-based company out of White Bear Lake, and that was our our hometown. So it it does certainly means a little bit to us coming from White Bear Lake, Minnesota. What a small world. But
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, amazing. It was started by an engineer in his garage, right? He just was traveling and went through the airports and thought there's gotta be a better way to move your luggage through the airport. And in
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: his garage in in our in the neighborhood in White Bear Lake, he'd he developed the the first luggage cart and you know, fast forward, you know, Smart Cart became the you know, the the world's leading supplier of luggage carts. It's a pretty amazing story.
Jonathan: Yeah, Jim Mulner was his name. Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: Yes, Jim Molner, yep.
Jonathan: Yeah, what a what a what a story. Yeah. And then he had that you know, for those of you, he had an old it was a grocery store over on the south side of White Bear Lake, I think that he ended up starting the company and then they went over on White Bear Parkway. So well, I'll get off the I'll get off the rails here and we'll
Kurt Larsen: Yeah.
Jonathan: start talking about White Bear and go bears, right? And do we we we've gotta talk
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, exactly.
Jonathan: about EOS. But you know, now that you're doing EOS, you know, How did those different positions, you know, you you like you you mentioned earlier, you sat in a lot of different chairs. You were operations, you were sales, you you ran the company. how did how did having those different positions, you know, shape you as a leader?
Kurt Larsen: well I think it it it helped me make helped me with decision making, no doubt, because I was able to t kind of quickly take into consideration all perspectives. There's a there's always the financial perspective. That's kind of where I go first. That's it's my background. If I'm making a decision is it is it profitable? But then, you know, can we get it done operationally? What does it mean for our staff? And then how do we sell it? so I think I was able to make better decisions. It helped with that, but I think it helped me relate to my leaders really well. And I could I could I could help coach them but I could also see where, you know, the gray areas between the handoffs between departments and the collaboration was working or not working. I think it I think it helped me work with my leadership staff as well.
Jonathan: Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing. And let me step back. For for those of you that are joining us today, you know, we are going to talk about you, you know, Kurt's got an EOS shirt on. And for those of that you don't know, is EOS is called the Entrepreneurial Operating System. And most people know it by the book that's called Traction and Geno Wickman. And I've got it I've got it here. Geno Wickman is the author, so I'm kinda I've probably forgot to talk about that early on, but where we're going with this. Is we are going to talk about how EOS has helped our business. And as I mentioned earlier, Kurt is now an official EOS. I think your title is Professional EOS Implementer. So again, so thanks for joining us. You know, moving moving on, you know, you the CEO is a pretty big spot, right? And and Viking was a pretty big outfit, certainly nationally recognized. what do people misunderstand about being a CEO? And you know, what did you learn by being in that role?
Kurt Larsen: well, I mean all all sorts of things. What did they maybe misunderstand? I
Jonathan: It's a big Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: think there's a c so on the on the positive side, I think people and certainly maybe I didn't know until I got to this spot, maybe didn't understand the opportunity you have to make a really positive impact in people's lives, right? Of your organization. and and and boy, I hope on and on my on my good days I was able to to to positively interact with with people and and the impact you can have from that position and the opportunity you get is is amazing. and I think maybe something that maybe misunderstood or not known is is yeah, it's lonely at the top. There's no doubt about that. It's it can be really it can be really lonely. maybe you see the the the glamour behind the position, but there's a lot there's a lot of stress, a lot of responsibility, kind of comes with the territory. But yeah, you're given a lot of opportunity to impact people's lives. And I think that's that's pretty amazing.
Jonathan: Yeah, and you you can obviously, you know, create the culture. And and it's stressful certainly if there are investors, right, that want to return on on that investment. But you know, you mentioned when I was doing research for this and and looking at your LinkedIn profile, and we've had some conversations off camera. You know, you you really had had said, and we're transitioning to EOS, but you had said, you know, by bringing in EOS, you know, it's it's lonely at the top, right? So you you had brought in EOS to I I don't know if save is the right word. I don't want to take put words in your mouth, but save or maybe transform the business. You know, t take us back a little bit on what was going on in in the business and what was happening in the business that you decided to take EOS or maybe decided hey, you know, what we're doing may not work. We've got to bring in some some structure. Why don't why don't you walk us through that?
Kurt Larsen: Sure. So when I was recruited to to help run Viking, I would say it kind of went through what I would call a turnaround. And when I arrived, they had started using EOS, but I would say we at that time I wouldn't say we were necessarily inside the company using it as pure as we should have. and there's an expression that I now know as an implementer is the implementer is going to meet the company where they are. Right. And every company kind of is starting at their spot, right? They may have a solid leadership team that's doing really well, but they're trying to grow, or they may come with a brand new leadership team, or they don't even have it filled out yet, and they're still trying to complete all the pieces. So when I got there, we had we were just coming out of the turnaround, and I would say we had a lot of new leaders, new young leaders. So Yeah, like our our culture was not where we wanted it to be, clearly. but but the but the owner had turned around the business and we were starting to move in the right direction. So when I got there I saw where the culture was. I saw that we had probably a lot
Jonathan: Okay.
Kurt Larsen: of young leaders, maybe not in the right seat at the time. We were given new leaders opportunities, but Really diving in, working hard with our imp professional implementer from EOS and starting to run the system on the you know, purely, like really following and and working EOS in between the sessions. You know, over time we were able to build a strong culture. We started solving a lot of our problems at the root cause, instead of kicking things down at the curb, and eventually we we tripled the business. So I really started to see the impact that that EOS could have and it just I remember as a as a new president too it just helped me get my arms around the business and it was super helpful and and and yeah so it was it was it was definitely great for our business.
Brent: Yeah, you had mentioned that you were you were at a point in the in the business where you weren't sure whether or not to implement on your own or you know hire an outside implementer. And you you shared a story offline a little bit about that, how an analogy. And yeah, I had somebody mention to me once that, you know, EO EOS is simple but not easy, right? it's simple when you read the book, right, but not easy to implement. and you shared an analogy yesterday about going to the gym. you go ahead and share that, because I thought that was pretty enlightening. and I thought it was a great story that will maybe resonate with some folks here.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, so the story that I was talking about is we we had we hired an implementer, but there were times when I maybe things got really financially challenging. And we tried to do self implementing for for a few quarters or something. And I remember just struggling with that. And I the analogy I use is it's sorta like when I go to the gym and when I have a professional instructor there that I'm working with, I'm doing my core work, I'm stretching, I'm gonna get the cardio in and I'm gonna do all the things I'm supposed to do to help me grow and get better, right? And as soon as as soon as I start taking over and I start doing the Kurt exercise program and the trainers there, well, you know,
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: I think I stretched last night at golf, so then I just kind of skipped that and I don't really like core stuff. So I kind of get right into the, you know, working on, you know, doing the lifting stuff, which is what I like to do. And I just don't quite do everything that I should because as humans we you know we tend to do what where we have success and what we like. We don't always want to go to the the danger or the hard areas. and that's what it was it was it was for like that for us. Like when we would go without an implementer. We were moving, but we weren't getting everything done in a pure fashion, necessarily doing all the hard stuff.
Brent: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I we we implemented EOS here and and one of the the biggest things that we've learned is our our employees really, really like it, right? They like the structure, and sometimes you you hear the term micromanage. And I don't feel that EOS is a a micromanagement system. I think it's just great structure that allows you to keep everybody on track and hold hold each other accountable. talk a little bit about that on the impact that it had, you know, on the employee. when when you guys actually brought in that outside implementer and and what changed internally. And then you know 3x growth and revenue directly tied to your EOS implementation. Obviously a lot a lot of components go into it, but talk a little bit about that if you don't mind.
Kurt Larsen: Sure. yeah, I think the first part you were sort of alluding to a topic maybe about accountability and micromanagement and the way I see it, you know, and and US is it like accountability is about the outcome, holding people to a target or to an outcome. And and sometimes micromanagement people are thinking of the process to do it. and I think You know, EOS tends to focus on accountability, getting everybody responsible for a number, getting getting the everybody in the organization rolling in the same direction, trying to help hit the numbers. there are times when there are processes that need to be done the right and best way every time in order to create consistency and scalability in a business. There are certainly times when there are, you know key processes that have to be done the best and right way. But I would say generally speaking, EOS is holding you more accountable to results, not micromanaging the process by which you may do things. So that's where I see that that topic. but yeah, the the people, once you start following it pure and you know, the old adage of doing, you know, doing what you say and really starting to get making sure that you have the right people in right seats. And there's nothing more important to me than that. nothing can kill your momentum when it comes to profitability or kill your culture is when you didn't have right people in the right seats. And I think that's when People starting to see that at the leadership team level we held each other accountable and we started like we had people in the wrong seats and the people underneath knew it, right? They always know when the leader's not in the right spot. They may be technically strong, but they're just not good at LMA, which we call LMA lead manager, hold people accountable. They're just not in the right seat. And once we started you know, I'd say we had to make a couple leadership team changes. The rest of the organization saw, wow, they're serious about this, and we brought somebody in you know, that had experience managing people and knowing how to manage people the right way and help them help, you know, manage, eliminate roadblocks and help their people have success. I mean the people started to then see, they're serious about this and they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna do what they say they're gonna do, right? And that got a ton of buy-in throughout the organization. And then anytime you start sharing the vision down into the grounds of the organization, that's when people really st feel first that they have to see it, understand it and then you know kind of want to be a part of it and internalize that vision, that's when you get, you know, that's when the magic starts happening. People start working with the vision because now they're included. And so that's where accountability, if you it's great to have accountability, but if you're not sharing the vision and sharing that stuff, it's hard to have one you need to do both, right? And so it it created some really good good buy-in and accountability in the organization.
Brent: Do you find that the the leaders that are on the top have a harder time admitting that they're maybe not in the right seat? is that any more challenging than than somebody underneath them?
Kurt Larsen: I would say that is a good that's that's a pretty accurate statement. I think there's I think people generally wanna do well and have a lot of pride. and it's hard to admit that, yeah, I I'm I'm not so good at this seat. I'm much better over here and 'cause I think generally people wanna gravitate towards management and maybe that's not where you know, that's not the best seat for you. That's not where you're becoming an A player. I see it sometimes in sales, right? The ma gravitate towards sales management and that's your best salesperson and they should be out there selling. They're not great at managing people. So yeah, there's a there's a challenge for that 'cause I think there's a general pressure to move up the ranks, move up the ladder. And that can be seen as well I'm not in management, I'm below management. But some of the most important people in your organization are not in management. Right? So I think there's just a maybe a culture pressure with that and
Brent: Yeah, Jonathan and I have have realized that when you move somebody into a management higher level role and they get used to doing that, and then you ask them to do tasks that used to be what they did before, sometimes that's challenging. And you touched on that, that they they do like it. They like the the management, and they don't like the blocking and tackling anymore, right? But how do you know for sure that that's the right fit for And that that's sometimes a pretty tough decision to make.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I mean that's you know, we have you have the people at anal analyzers you're reviewing, are they hitting their numbers? How is their team responding to them? yeah, I mean the tools are there within EOS to help to to help, you know, the tools are there to to to bring the information and and make it crystal clear on what's happening, so
Jonathan: And you talk about the tools, you know, EOS. Why don't we talk a little bit about, you know, what is EOS and you know why you decided to get into it, right? So you you you know, you left you left Viking and you decided to go into this thing called EOS. For audience that doesn't really understand EOS or the entrepr entrepreneurial operating system or or or the book traction, you know, what is it from a high level overview and and Maybe walk us through what that looks like if someone was interested in learning more about that. And for those of you listening, we are certainly gonna put Kurt's contact information and we'll link the book down below as well.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, so so the the the EOS system it's a it's a it's a proven simple s system with a simple set of tools that help business owners get more of what they want from their business. And What we do as professional implementers is we work with the leadership team and we help them get what we call vision traction healthy. And vision is just helping ensure the that the leadership team is 100% on the same page where the company's going and how they're going to get there. traction is just installing a discipline, focus, and accountability on the leadership team so you know that everybody's working on that vision is and then healthy is creating a cohesive, functional, open-minded. you know, fun loving leadership team, because oftentimes they're not, right? And then, you know, we find that as the leadership team goes, so goes the rest of the organization. And ultimately, we work with them to get vision traction healthy throughout the entire organization. So that's what we do and and then, you know, kind of determining if it's to help the to help them learn more about it, and determining right fit, we offer, you know, a ninety day could we call it or I'm sorry, ninety minute meeting. We call it the ninety minute meeting and we would sit down and share with the owner and the ownership or the leadership team how we can help them get vision traction healthy in their business.
Jonathan: So I have to ask you, how hard was the certification process when you decided like, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna go do this and and be a professional implementer? was it was it a fun process to go through?
Kurt Larsen: fun and challenging. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean yeah, I mean i
Jonathan: Define fun, right?
Kurt Larsen: well so we from from I mean from my perspective, I've I ran on EOS for eleven years at Viking, right? So I had the background coming in of knowing, you know, the benefit of running on it. and I also had the benefit as you know, one of my implementers, you know, I also knew on a personal level. So sometimes I got inside baseball as to and I was I'm always a curious person. So I was always, why are we doing it this way? What does that mean? Tell me a little more about this. And I you know, they would share information to help, you know, to help me. So so I think I had some benefit there. but yeah, I mean you you have to it's one one of the things I love about being an implementer is it's your job to be a pro's pro when it comes to being a coach, teacher, and facilitator. And it's a big EOS community and it's all about you know continuous learning and being the best that you can be and and being able to help. So but yeah there's there's definitely a lot of preparation and a lot of continuous work to to be the best you can when it comes to being an implementer.
Jonathan: Yeah. And and you brought up the word help before and and I think that is one of the core values of EOS or at least from a strategic standpoint, they do talk a lot about, you know, being helpful. So
Kurt Larsen: Right, absolutely. Help first is is is is a is a core value for sure. and that's what we're we're here to do. And I think I think a lot of implementers, they've been through the grind. they know what it's like. You know, there's a lot of things I know. I don't look at all the gray hair I got, Jonathan. And you know it's not
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: you know and it's like you want you're at your point where you're like, I've learned a ton. I there's a lot of things I wish I knew. I wish I would have done differently, definitely for sure. Right. And I and and and the feeling you give of helping somebody else is is just tremendous, right? And
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: and you wanna take all the things that you learn and this is a proven system. It like you guys said, it's a simple set simple set of tools, proven system. And that's the beauty of it. I don't have to change anything. It's my job to teach it pure. And you want to be able to help small businesses and and owners and and leadership teams run a better business and and live a better life. So
Jonathan: Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing. If you have time, let's get a little bit more granular on the EOS. If we can dig down a little bit and get some some nuggets for our our listeners. But you know, what does EOS give an owner or the leadership team? what what does that give them that they often don't have before they start EOS? Right. So if you're not on, you're not running on EOS, you know, you were at Viking running EOS for eleven years, but You know, if if there's a company that, you know, fits the your avatar and I think it's a minimum of, you know, ten employees, but someone over ten employees and there's a leadership team, what does EOS give them that they may not have today? I know you've talked about accountability, so I think that would probably be, you know, one thing, but is there anything else?
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I mean when I think when you say vision, traction healthy, vision is generally speaking about alignment, right? Getting everybody aligned in the organization, rowing in the same direction. You mentioned traction is about discipline, focusing, accountability. And then team health is super important, right? That that's at the high level. And then we work with them, and I don't want to give too much of the sauce, the 90 minute really, it's it it does it. That's where you get the that's that's where you get the entire package explains you, and it's it makes a lot more sense, the entire process. But yeah, we work with them on strengthening six key components around their business. and and like I said, your challenges, impurities, imperfections, as well as some opportunities and ideas really become transparent once you start strengthening those things. Six key components of your business.
Jonathan: Okay. And again, we will we'll certainly put your contact information down below. People will be able to click on that link and and contact you. So well thanks for sharing. I I have, you know, just a few more, you know, one of the questions I want to know is, you know, you've been in business, you've had all these really cool various roles, you know, and there's a lot of good companies, right? You know, Viking was a really good company, and then a lot of the companies that you're working with, they're really good companies, but why why would you or what would you say Why do companies get stuck? Where they look like they hit a plateau and we're working with a lot of companies that aren't using traction, but you know, they get stuck at a certain revenue and then they can't blow through that, you know. So do you if you have any insight to that, it'd be great to hear it with you know, your thirty five years of business experience. Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: Well, I mean, I think there's thank you for that. I mean, I I I think there's a lot of reasons. We sometimes we refer to that as hitting the ceiling. and there
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: can be a lot of reasons. I mean, I think sometimes the the adage is what got you here won't get you there, right?
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: so sometimes the the desire to grow can create complexity that either the structure can't support or the people can't support. That can happen, right? sometimes a business is trying to do too many things and they really need to simplify to grow and do better. sometimes they need to create better systems. Maybe they're producing products, but it takes them nine months to get it out the door or and then quality isn't there all the time. Maybe they have to, you know, do a better job with systems, right? So they can get the product out quality. sometimes the leadership team can become a the bottleneck. And you know, in the first stage of growth, you know, you're s you expand a little bit, now all the decisions are running through three, seven key people and it they just become the bottleneck and they need to get better at delegating and elevating, right? could be processes. Sometimes you gotta streamline your processes and make sure that everybody in the business is following the process. That creates consistency and scalability. There's I mean there's there's different things that we teach and work with leadership teams to help them break through the ceiling when they encounter it in their business. But yeah, there's a lot of things that can happen. And sometimes you're in a business and you sell product and and you need to develop a new product and you may have competition that comes into play but but we do work with leadership teams on on on improving skills and abilities to help them break through the ceiling. But good question.
Jonathan: Yeah, thank you. Well, we we just spent three days in Miami for training
Kurt Larsen: Yeah.
Jonathan: and one of our takeaways on our roadmap implementation is is is Brett and I have to become better leaders, right? We've operated one way for so many years and it's like we're really trying to do a lot of self-reflecting and and realized, you know, where we're at as an organization is for us to take the next step, we've gotta become better leaders. So I I can appreciate that is you know, we've got to look in the mirror because I brought up Harry Truman yesterday in in a conversation. And for those of you don't know, Harry Truman was one of the presidents of the US. He was a Midwest guy, and he had a plaque on his desk that said, you know, the buck stops here. Just kind of an old you know, the buck
Kurt Larsen: yeah.
Jonathan: stops here, right? So we've got to take r responsibility. And and one of the things that we like to talk about here and is is being radically open minded. You know, don't don't be stubborn, right? Try to be, and that was something I picked up from Ray Dalio. who is one a a famous investor here in the United States, but he was like, You just gotta be radically open minded and don't think you know it all. So, you know, I think and what's nice about you is if someone decides to to spend the money on EOS, I think they're taking that step because they are open minded in real life to get to the next level, they've got to they've got to break some things.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, and I think well it's th that's that's a great point. I mean being open minded, getting different perspectives and the world is changing so quick nowadays, right? you know, we we we could the AI subject and everything else, but but but how you lead and how businesses are competing and everything's changing really fast. So definitely what got you where you are isn't gonna get you go, you know, help you grow going forward. You have to be open to change and and you know if you're gonna y people have processes in their business, right? You have a process for everything you do, HR process, marketing process, whatever. Do you have a process to run your business? You know, that's that's that's the question I like. Do you have a process to run your business? 'Cause that's really what you're investing in when when you invest in EOS, a process to help you run your business.
Brent: Yeah, one of the things that we use with EOS is, you know, issue resolution, right? Identifying issues and problems. And you know, share with us, you know, the reason with your experience why, you know, leadership groups talk about the same problems over and over again and and never solve them, and then maybe how some components of EOS might get them, you know, over the finish line per se.
Kurt Larsen: good question. yeah, I think generally speaking, leadership teams come together with the with pure hearts and their desire to solve the issue, right? But they, you know, they spend all their time discussing the issue, right? They discuss the daylights out of the issue. You may get some people back and forth on they've got the solution. You got this, you know, start politicking and repeating themselves and sometimes the loudest person wins and and and they're they're just discussing the daylights. But like typically they don't walk out of there with somebody making a decision, taking an action plan to go solve it. But even more importantly A symptom was written down and they didn't really identify the issue at the root cause. I mean I can attest to doing this Often in a in in our struggles with young leaders is like it was just the symptom that we were listing. We didn't we didn't dig down deep into the organization and really get the root cause and identify the root cause of the issue. And then somebody takes something, a plan of action and a responsibility to end it and make it go away forever. I think we just would treat symptoms and then it would come back, you know, three months later and it would be like, didn't we just discuss this, you know? and then some Sometimes they don't solve it because they're more they're willing to sometimes live with the short term pain than the maybe the solution, the one the the it's it's a long solution. Sometimes documentation is isn't viewed as profitable right away and it's a it's a long grinding solution. you know, I it's necessary, but sometimes that gets kicked to the curb. But but oftentimes they just don't identify the the root cause of the issue.
Brent: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. there's you we've talked about you know accountability and and micromanagement already. And in in in the US there's a a component of accountability and I would say less from a micromanagement, but you can you explain the differences in those two a little bit and and what they mean to you from a management perspective?
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I mean I think we touched on this a little bit with with accountability being more about outcomes. and when I think when people talk about micromanaging they're talking about process and having somebody over your shoulder tell you exactly what to do all the time, right? And you know, ideally you are you are you are sharing vision with people so everybody feels part of the vision and then everybody's responsible for in EOS we use a scorecard for teams, gives you the five to fifteen key numbers that helps you keep a pulse on your business and then and then everybody in the organization gets a measurable so a number that you're accountable for hitting, right? And and that makes people feel of a team you're you're all contributing and driving towards a measurable or number so you're part of the big organization it's not just the leadership team that's out there with a scorecard or or a measurable right and I think that creates a sense of belonging partnership and buy-in that goes along with that accountability I think I talk about if you share the vision you're more likely to get buy-in and people to hold themselves accountable driving helping you drive the vision so So that's how I see, you know, accountability happening in in the OS.
Jonathan: Thank you for sharing that, Kurt. this has been a lot of fun. Are you having fun?
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I mean this I I can talk EOS all day.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: I'm surprised I'm surprised I've I don't think I've used a sports analogy yet. And I'm like, I thought for sure with the three of us, we would have
Brent: Yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: sports analogies going on like crazy. I think one time you asked me, you go, because I was thinking about this, and you go, well, what what what has to happen as at a company for them to need EOS? And it's like, well, I thought about that and I'm like, I got a
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: great sports analogy for that one. So it's like, okay, well, it's it's it's for I think it's for every business that's between 10 and 250 employees, but that I I'm obviously Biased. But in my mind, you can be 10 and 0, 8 and 2, 5 and 5, or 2 and 8. You need a process to run your business, and you should be on EOS. Because you never know if you're if you're 2 and 8, you think, well, I want to get to 5 and 5 to get right. So I'll invest in the process, right? That's going to help my business, help me grow, help me. But if you're 10 0, what if you're winning all your games by a field goal? Do you think the team that's 8 2 is is going to sit down in the offseason and not try to be you next year not you know your competition's not trying to get 10 and so you've got to be maybe you're 10 and but you're not taking advantages of all the opportunities and things that you can do and maybe you should be winning by a touchdown or 10 points. So I had someone saying well do you have to be broken and it's like you don't have to be broken to get the benefits of EOS. So there's my I had to inject my first sports analogy today.
Brent: Yeah, no, that's
Kurt Larsen: Although we did
Jonathan: Well I
Kurt Larsen: get in the one we got in the one with the gym. That was okay. Right, for sure.
Brent: Yeah, that's great and it resonates well with all our Minnesota teams, right? I like I like the fact that you sit idle in the off season because there's a couple of teams in Minnesota that continuously do that.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, that's true.
Jonathan: boy, we we we're we're getting dangerously off the tracks. Yeah, we we love sports.
Brent: So question on you know investing in EOS, right? There's a a time commitment, there's a financial commitment. and and ultimately it's not a and and John and I talk about this all the time, it's not about making people feel happy and feel good about themselves. We want them to make more money, right? you talked about scaling Viking 3x, right? as the company grows, does the owner need to change? You know, what what has to change at the top as a as a company continues to grow? Is is it important for the for the owner to change along the way? talk a little bit about that if you could.
Jonathan: And then if I can just add something to that, Brent, because I think we struggle with that. And I know a lot of the people that we work with struggle like that. A lot of the companies that we we work with, you know, we're a marketing agency and we focus on the home service businesses. And a lot of our clients are owner operators that own these landscape irrigation, tree service companies, right? And they have a hard time getting out of their own way because they think they can do it better than everyone else. And I think, Brent, I think we struggle with that a little bit too. It's like Well, hell, I'll just be I'd be better off doing it ourselves, right? When if you give it to someone else, maybe they can do it to seven seventy percent or eighty percent of what we can. But I I think that's a struggle that we need to work on as well. And we've talked about that and we see it a lot with our owner operators too. A lot of times these owner operators are in the field as well, and they can't get out of their own way and build out their crews and their teams like that. So Didn't mean to jump on that, but I wanted to add that into that question for Kurt, 'cause I think it's it it's a really important question, is how do we get out of our own way, I think is what you're asking.
Brent: Yeah, for sure.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I think, you know, so so it it bring it it it I it I think of the the story of, you know, the hiker that falls off the cliff, right? And And he grabs the vine and he's he's dangling and he can't go up and he can't go down and and he and he looks up and says, Is there anybody to help me? And there's you know this booming voice that says, you know, do you trust me? And they say, yeah, I trust you. And it says, Okay, well let go of the vine, right? And the hiker looks around, he looks back up and he goes, Is anybody else up there? Because it's it's very it's it's hard to let
Brent: Yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: go of the vine, right? So I mean that's ultimately Yeah, at the time you probably do do the job better than anybody can. But if you want to grow and scale and especially for you know for that or someday sell and have a succession plan, you are going to have to teach people to do what you do and or bring people around you and build out a team to be able to do that because you can't scale it. You won't have the capacity to do it. and it and that's just the challenge of going from, you know, the the the the one to three, five person gig to to company and to grow. You have to do those type things. And it's hard to let go of the vine. I had a conversation with a friend the other day and and he's he we're going through like he's just start he he knows EOS and he starts bringing out the accountability chart and he's like in four of the seats, you know. And every time he writes his name down, he looks at me, he's just waiting for me to say something. And I and I don't even need to say anything because he's he starts and he just completes the sentence for me. He goes, and I'm in too many seats. And I'm like
Brent: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: you know, we start going through it and I said, How's this working for you? How do you think you're gonna grow your business? Do you think you can stay in all these seats and triple your business like you want? How's that gonna work? It's like
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: no, you know, they know the answer, but you kind of just have to our job is just Use the tools, walk them through the exercise and say, you know, ultimately, what are you going to do? But you need to make a decision. You're either going to stay this way forever, or or we need to start building out your leadership team. And you're going to have to put in controls and you're going to have to let go of the vine. But I I completely understand how difficult it is.
Jonathan: It it's it's it's not easy. And I one thing that you just did there that I really enjoyed is you how you role played asking them questions and 'cause they know the answer. So you're just facilitating and getting the answers and then you can y use what their word hey, you just told me that you can't do it based on the questions I just asked you, right? So I love the questioning aspect of it. We read a book, Brent, and we just saw him speak. For those of you out there, it's called Mar Marcus Sheridan is the author. you ask, they answer, I believe is the name of the book. Marcus Sheridan, they ask, you answer. Fantastic speaker, and his whole premise is just asking questions, asking questions, asking questions. So I can appreciate the question asking him your your friend that you're helping out there, and it's like they don't they they know the answer. And if they don't know the
Kurt Larsen: Yeah.
Jonathan: answer, it's like, hey, what would you know? Well, how would you solve that problem? Because I think as business owners and leaders, right, you want to solve the problem for It's like, well, here's what I would do and you gotta go do this and you go down to the mail room and you do this and and it's like, Well, what would you do? How would you solve that problem? So I I can appreciate
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, that's
Jonathan: that.
Kurt Larsen: that's a great point. I mean we're we're coach we're we're teachers, facilit facilitators and coaches. We will coach and challenge, put support, but it's not really my job to make it's not my job to make decisions for I ask the questions. If they ask, I may share some experiences that I've had, right? So but but otherwise the the like you said, the answer's in the room. Right?
Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: You know, if they especially if they have the right people. But like the answer's in the room, you're just going through a process to make things super transparent and and and it's there for them to solve.
Jonathan: Yeah, fantastic. Well, a few more questions and we'll wrap up. I'm grateful for your time. I think we've got some absolute great, great content. I I love talking about EOS and and really helping our listeners out. So again, thank you for jumping on. couple closing questions. You know, what would you say is the biggest leadership lesson that you've learned or a a couple of lessons that you've learned in your successful thirty-five plus year career?
Kurt Larsen: I would have to say I had some really good leaders ahead of me and I think sometimes early on I would try to maybe emulate those leaders. And and be maybe more of them because I was like, well, this person was so great. And I and I tried to be them, and and it, and then eventually someone came to me and says, you know, Kurt, in order for you to be the best you and and serve your customers the best, the people that work with you and for you the best, is you have to be the authentic you. Like you have to be you. That is how you are going to create the best relationships. You know, be authentic, be open and honest. Like be the best you but be you. Don't try to don't try to emulate somebody else, even if they were a you know, a mentor of yours or good lead. Like you have to be you, and that's the only real way you'll be authentic and create connections and trust with people. That was like outstanding advice. And at the same time it was sort of a relief. Like, you know, we just get to be the the guys from White Bear North So we just get to be who we are and being, you know, authentic and and Honest is the is the is the best best management advice advice that I received.
Jonathan: I absolutely love that one and I don't want to speak for Brent, but you know, we always say, Hey, what you see is what you get w with us too. And it's like we wear it right here and you know, we're we're we wear our emotions on our sleeve. Brent, not Brent so much, but I'm the more the animated one. But you know, what you see is what you get, right? We're not gonna Brent is not gonna be on the podcast and be all animated, right? That's not his personality. And I think that's why we make a good team and it and it's certainly a lot easier being yourself. Right. If if you you it it
Kurt Larsen: percent.
Jonathan: it's hard to emulate other people and it it like you said, and I really like what you said as far as it the authentic you, be the authentic you. So that that's a great
Brent: Yep.
Jonathan: nugget.
Brent: That definitely ties into marketing strategy as well, John and right. We always talk about that with our clients. You just want to create authentic content and have an authentic brand and don't try to be somebody else, right? create your brand and just run with it. And if if people like it, great. If they don't, they're probably not the ideal customer for you. So move on to somebody else. But that was a a great share, Kurt. We appreciate that.
Jonathan: Yeah, well I I think I don't have anything else. You know, I'm grateful to have you on. And for those of you if that's your first listen, with Build to Win, our podcast, as I mentioned earlier, we want to talk about marketing, sales, faith, building a life that matters. And we're grateful to have Kurt on to talk about EOS and how to how to build a better company to help business owners fulfill their why, right? So think about what your why is and Potentially how you could incorporate maybe EOS into your business. It's been it's been great for us. so in closing, I think, you know, we always liked part of our podcast, as I mentioned, is talking about faith. I've got a I've got a a scripture I'd like to share today, and then I'll turn it over to Kurt that I think is relevant to what we've talked today about. And it's it's it's really about surrounding yourself with talented people. You can't go at this alone. You know, I've been lucky to have a business partner for thirty years and I I can't imagine, you know, you know, we built Digital Planet up and had a successful exit and we're we're we're enjoying doing it again with our our company, JBAC strategies. And it sure is a lot more fun doing this with other people and surrounding yourself with talented leadership teams and building those out. So Proverbs I'll get back to it, I think it's fifteen twenty two and I don't have my reading glasses with me, but it says plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed. You know, with many advisors they succeed. So don't be afraid to to bring people in that you think can help your business out. And Kurt, do you have a do you have a a favorite scripture? I know you're a man of faith and it's important to you. Do you have anything you'd like to share on that?
Kurt Larsen: yeah, I mean my favorite is as well, you know, off I I know we're we we both go to Eagle Brook, right? We're e we're we're EBC guys. but I I often and and Bob Merritt's my guy, right? So he he's my favorite. No I I love the other guys, but I just I think he's he's the original for me and my favorite, but You know, he talks a lot about dealing with with it that you you know, adversity is part of life and you will see adversity in your life and it helps build your character. That's that's that's where the real growth comes from. And then the verse that sticks with me whenever I am going through adversity is is Philippians four thir thirteen, and that's just hey I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. and and and I'm not I don't do a ton of Bible verses every day, but you know, I do I do some things in the morning and that's the thing I say to myself because, you know, to expect it versus today but just know that just part that's just part of growth and and and then that that you can persevere and we'll be better for it.
Jonathan: Yeah, thanks for sharing. And I appreciate that. And and for those of you out there, if you're struggling in business or life and you do have adversity, like Kurt talked about, and you and you think you don't have anyone to talk to, certainly reach out to us. You've got the the big man upstairs. if if you have any questions on on scripture or anything like that, feel free to reach out to myself or Brent. But you are not alone in your journey. And Kurt Grateful to have you on. it's been great to catch up after all these years and super excited that that you could join built to win. So thank you very much. And we'll see you next time.
Kurt Larsen: Thanks for having me today. It was great time.
Brent: Yeah, thanks Kurt. Appreciate it. Awesome, awesome job.
Kurt Larsen: Thanks, Brent.
Kurt Larsen: Well thank you guys. I'm super excited to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for that gracious introduction. Hopefully I can live up to part of that. but real super happy to to be here, my first podcast. So let's get after it.
Jonathan: let's do it. Well welcome and and I'll jump in right away and you know, why don't you just walk us through a little bit of your career, kind of where you came from and a little bit of the evolution.
Kurt Larsen: Sure. Well, I started out wanting to become a CPA, I had an older brother, older sister that were CPA. So I started down that path, graduated with this with my degree in accounting from St. Thomas, sat for the CPA exam past that and went to work at a company called Ernst and Young. So I started along kind of the finance accounting path. And I worked in accounting or finance positions for roughly my first ten years of my career. the last position I held was director of finance at a company called SmartCart. And for those of you who've ever seen the luggage carts in the airports, that's the that's the largest line of business is SmartCart. And was that was right up to about nine eleven I was I was running the finance department for for the business and then nine eleven happened which was obviously you know Very traumatic for our for our our country, but also a very big hit to our business. And it was at that point that I decided to move over from finance into operations, kind of take all those skills, financial skills and PLs and all that, and bring it out of accounting and bring it into the operation for SmartCart. And then I took the big risk of moving to operations, and it was at that point that I my my think I my growth as a person and in business really took off. And I worked for about ten years in in operations, culminating making a making it to the VP of ops position at Smart Cart. And then I really wanted to run a business and I got the opportunity. I got recruited to to run the business for Viking Engineering, which at the time was was owned by a single owner, family owner, call it. And I was brought in to to Viking to run the business for him, ultimately becoming, you know, I was brought in as the CFO, I think kind of to bring me in at the top level and learn the finances, run the finances first, ultimately. The plan was for me to become succeed him as president and CEO, and that's what happened. And it's in that chair, not only did I kind of cut my teeth and learn how to be a president and CEO, we were selling to mostly family businesses, and they wanted to buy and meet the owner when buying big pieces of expensive equipment. So I really kind of dug in and learned the sales side of the business as well. And then started, you know, doing all the things of implementing. You know, becoming professional sales staff and doing things in the business. So I really I'm really fortunate, but I've got like a third of my life in finance and accounting, a third in operations, and then a third pretty heavy sales stuff. So I've got a nice blended background, I guess. But yeah, that was my that was my route to eventually becoming president and CEO of a manufacturing company called Viking Engineering.
Jonathan: It's a pretty amazing career path and and trajectory. So, you know, thank you for sharing. And you brought up a name for our listeners out there. Kurt is from Minnesota and Brent and I are also from Minnesota. And Smart Part, Smart Cart, correct me if I'm wrong, Kurt, but they're a Minnesota-based company out of White Bear Lake, and that was our our hometown. So it it does certainly means a little bit to us coming from White Bear Lake, Minnesota. What a small world. But
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, amazing. It was started by an engineer in his garage, right? He just was traveling and went through the airports and thought there's gotta be a better way to move your luggage through the airport. And in
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: his garage in in our in the neighborhood in White Bear Lake, he'd he developed the the first luggage cart and you know, fast forward, you know, Smart Cart became the you know, the the world's leading supplier of luggage carts. It's a pretty amazing story.
Jonathan: Yeah, Jim Mulner was his name. Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: Yes, Jim Molner, yep.
Jonathan: Yeah, what a what a what a story. Yeah. And then he had that you know, for those of you, he had an old it was a grocery store over on the south side of White Bear Lake, I think that he ended up starting the company and then they went over on White Bear Parkway. So well, I'll get off the I'll get off the rails here and we'll
Kurt Larsen: Yeah.
Jonathan: start talking about White Bear and go bears, right? And do we we we've gotta talk
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, exactly.
Jonathan: about EOS. But you know, now that you're doing EOS, you know, How did those different positions, you know, you you like you you mentioned earlier, you sat in a lot of different chairs. You were operations, you were sales, you you ran the company. how did how did having those different positions, you know, shape you as a leader?
Kurt Larsen: well I think it it it helped me make helped me with decision making, no doubt, because I was able to t kind of quickly take into consideration all perspectives. There's a there's always the financial perspective. That's kind of where I go first. That's it's my background. If I'm making a decision is it is it profitable? But then, you know, can we get it done operationally? What does it mean for our staff? And then how do we sell it? so I think I was able to make better decisions. It helped with that, but I think it helped me relate to my leaders really well. And I could I could I could help coach them but I could also see where, you know, the gray areas between the handoffs between departments and the collaboration was working or not working. I think it I think it helped me work with my leadership staff as well.
Jonathan: Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing. And let me step back. For for those of you that are joining us today, you know, we are going to talk about you, you know, Kurt's got an EOS shirt on. And for those of that you don't know, is EOS is called the Entrepreneurial Operating System. And most people know it by the book that's called Traction and Geno Wickman. And I've got it I've got it here. Geno Wickman is the author, so I'm kinda I've probably forgot to talk about that early on, but where we're going with this. Is we are going to talk about how EOS has helped our business. And as I mentioned earlier, Kurt is now an official EOS. I think your title is Professional EOS Implementer. So again, so thanks for joining us. You know, moving moving on, you know, you the CEO is a pretty big spot, right? And and Viking was a pretty big outfit, certainly nationally recognized. what do people misunderstand about being a CEO? And you know, what did you learn by being in that role?
Kurt Larsen: well, I mean all all sorts of things. What did they maybe misunderstand? I
Jonathan: It's a big Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: think there's a c so on the on the positive side, I think people and certainly maybe I didn't know until I got to this spot, maybe didn't understand the opportunity you have to make a really positive impact in people's lives, right? Of your organization. and and and boy, I hope on and on my on my good days I was able to to to positively interact with with people and and the impact you can have from that position and the opportunity you get is is amazing. and I think maybe something that maybe misunderstood or not known is is yeah, it's lonely at the top. There's no doubt about that. It's it can be really it can be really lonely. maybe you see the the the glamour behind the position, but there's a lot there's a lot of stress, a lot of responsibility, kind of comes with the territory. But yeah, you're given a lot of opportunity to impact people's lives. And I think that's that's pretty amazing.
Jonathan: Yeah, and you you can obviously, you know, create the culture. And and it's stressful certainly if there are investors, right, that want to return on on that investment. But you know, you mentioned when I was doing research for this and and looking at your LinkedIn profile, and we've had some conversations off camera. You know, you you really had had said, and we're transitioning to EOS, but you had said, you know, by bringing in EOS, you know, it's it's lonely at the top, right? So you you had brought in EOS to I I don't know if save is the right word. I don't want to take put words in your mouth, but save or maybe transform the business. You know, t take us back a little bit on what was going on in in the business and what was happening in the business that you decided to take EOS or maybe decided hey, you know, what we're doing may not work. We've got to bring in some some structure. Why don't why don't you walk us through that?
Kurt Larsen: Sure. So when I was recruited to to help run Viking, I would say it kind of went through what I would call a turnaround. And when I arrived, they had started using EOS, but I would say we at that time I wouldn't say we were necessarily inside the company using it as pure as we should have. and there's an expression that I now know as an implementer is the implementer is going to meet the company where they are. Right. And every company kind of is starting at their spot, right? They may have a solid leadership team that's doing really well, but they're trying to grow, or they may come with a brand new leadership team, or they don't even have it filled out yet, and they're still trying to complete all the pieces. So when I got there, we had we were just coming out of the turnaround, and I would say we had a lot of new leaders, new young leaders. So Yeah, like our our culture was not where we wanted it to be, clearly. but but the but the owner had turned around the business and we were starting to move in the right direction. So when I got there I saw where the culture was. I saw that we had probably a lot
Jonathan: Okay.
Kurt Larsen: of young leaders, maybe not in the right seat at the time. We were given new leaders opportunities, but Really diving in, working hard with our imp professional implementer from EOS and starting to run the system on the you know, purely, like really following and and working EOS in between the sessions. You know, over time we were able to build a strong culture. We started solving a lot of our problems at the root cause, instead of kicking things down at the curb, and eventually we we tripled the business. So I really started to see the impact that that EOS could have and it just I remember as a as a new president too it just helped me get my arms around the business and it was super helpful and and and yeah so it was it was it was definitely great for our business.
Brent: Yeah, you had mentioned that you were you were at a point in the in the business where you weren't sure whether or not to implement on your own or you know hire an outside implementer. And you you shared a story offline a little bit about that, how an analogy. And yeah, I had somebody mention to me once that, you know, EO EOS is simple but not easy, right? it's simple when you read the book, right, but not easy to implement. and you shared an analogy yesterday about going to the gym. you go ahead and share that, because I thought that was pretty enlightening. and I thought it was a great story that will maybe resonate with some folks here.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, so the story that I was talking about is we we had we hired an implementer, but there were times when I maybe things got really financially challenging. And we tried to do self implementing for for a few quarters or something. And I remember just struggling with that. And I the analogy I use is it's sorta like when I go to the gym and when I have a professional instructor there that I'm working with, I'm doing my core work, I'm stretching, I'm gonna get the cardio in and I'm gonna do all the things I'm supposed to do to help me grow and get better, right? And as soon as as soon as I start taking over and I start doing the Kurt exercise program and the trainers there, well, you know,
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: I think I stretched last night at golf, so then I just kind of skipped that and I don't really like core stuff. So I kind of get right into the, you know, working on, you know, doing the lifting stuff, which is what I like to do. And I just don't quite do everything that I should because as humans we you know we tend to do what where we have success and what we like. We don't always want to go to the the danger or the hard areas. and that's what it was it was it was for like that for us. Like when we would go without an implementer. We were moving, but we weren't getting everything done in a pure fashion, necessarily doing all the hard stuff.
Brent: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I we we implemented EOS here and and one of the the biggest things that we've learned is our our employees really, really like it, right? They like the structure, and sometimes you you hear the term micromanage. And I don't feel that EOS is a a micromanagement system. I think it's just great structure that allows you to keep everybody on track and hold hold each other accountable. talk a little bit about that on the impact that it had, you know, on the employee. when when you guys actually brought in that outside implementer and and what changed internally. And then you know 3x growth and revenue directly tied to your EOS implementation. Obviously a lot a lot of components go into it, but talk a little bit about that if you don't mind.
Kurt Larsen: Sure. yeah, I think the first part you were sort of alluding to a topic maybe about accountability and micromanagement and the way I see it, you know, and and US is it like accountability is about the outcome, holding people to a target or to an outcome. And and sometimes micromanagement people are thinking of the process to do it. and I think You know, EOS tends to focus on accountability, getting everybody responsible for a number, getting getting the everybody in the organization rolling in the same direction, trying to help hit the numbers. there are times when there are processes that need to be done the right and best way every time in order to create consistency and scalability in a business. There are certainly times when there are, you know key processes that have to be done the best and right way. But I would say generally speaking, EOS is holding you more accountable to results, not micromanaging the process by which you may do things. So that's where I see that that topic. but yeah, the the people, once you start following it pure and you know, the old adage of doing, you know, doing what you say and really starting to get making sure that you have the right people in right seats. And there's nothing more important to me than that. nothing can kill your momentum when it comes to profitability or kill your culture is when you didn't have right people in the right seats. And I think that's when People starting to see that at the leadership team level we held each other accountable and we started like we had people in the wrong seats and the people underneath knew it, right? They always know when the leader's not in the right spot. They may be technically strong, but they're just not good at LMA, which we call LMA lead manager, hold people accountable. They're just not in the right seat. And once we started you know, I'd say we had to make a couple leadership team changes. The rest of the organization saw, wow, they're serious about this, and we brought somebody in you know, that had experience managing people and knowing how to manage people the right way and help them help, you know, manage, eliminate roadblocks and help their people have success. I mean the people started to then see, they're serious about this and they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna do what they say they're gonna do, right? And that got a ton of buy-in throughout the organization. And then anytime you start sharing the vision down into the grounds of the organization, that's when people really st feel first that they have to see it, understand it and then you know kind of want to be a part of it and internalize that vision, that's when you get, you know, that's when the magic starts happening. People start working with the vision because now they're included. And so that's where accountability, if you it's great to have accountability, but if you're not sharing the vision and sharing that stuff, it's hard to have one you need to do both, right? And so it it created some really good good buy-in and accountability in the organization.
Brent: Do you find that the the leaders that are on the top have a harder time admitting that they're maybe not in the right seat? is that any more challenging than than somebody underneath them?
Kurt Larsen: I would say that is a good that's that's a pretty accurate statement. I think there's I think people generally wanna do well and have a lot of pride. and it's hard to admit that, yeah, I I'm I'm not so good at this seat. I'm much better over here and 'cause I think generally people wanna gravitate towards management and maybe that's not where you know, that's not the best seat for you. That's not where you're becoming an A player. I see it sometimes in sales, right? The ma gravitate towards sales management and that's your best salesperson and they should be out there selling. They're not great at managing people. So yeah, there's a there's a challenge for that 'cause I think there's a general pressure to move up the ranks, move up the ladder. And that can be seen as well I'm not in management, I'm below management. But some of the most important people in your organization are not in management. Right? So I think there's just a maybe a culture pressure with that and
Brent: Yeah, Jonathan and I have have realized that when you move somebody into a management higher level role and they get used to doing that, and then you ask them to do tasks that used to be what they did before, sometimes that's challenging. And you touched on that, that they they do like it. They like the the management, and they don't like the blocking and tackling anymore, right? But how do you know for sure that that's the right fit for And that that's sometimes a pretty tough decision to make.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I mean that's you know, we have you have the people at anal analyzers you're reviewing, are they hitting their numbers? How is their team responding to them? yeah, I mean the tools are there within EOS to help to to help, you know, the tools are there to to to bring the information and and make it crystal clear on what's happening, so
Jonathan: And you talk about the tools, you know, EOS. Why don't we talk a little bit about, you know, what is EOS and you know why you decided to get into it, right? So you you you know, you left you left Viking and you decided to go into this thing called EOS. For audience that doesn't really understand EOS or the entrepr entrepreneurial operating system or or or the book traction, you know, what is it from a high level overview and and Maybe walk us through what that looks like if someone was interested in learning more about that. And for those of you listening, we are certainly gonna put Kurt's contact information and we'll link the book down below as well.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, so so the the the EOS system it's a it's a it's a proven simple s system with a simple set of tools that help business owners get more of what they want from their business. And What we do as professional implementers is we work with the leadership team and we help them get what we call vision traction healthy. And vision is just helping ensure the that the leadership team is 100% on the same page where the company's going and how they're going to get there. traction is just installing a discipline, focus, and accountability on the leadership team so you know that everybody's working on that vision is and then healthy is creating a cohesive, functional, open-minded. you know, fun loving leadership team, because oftentimes they're not, right? And then, you know, we find that as the leadership team goes, so goes the rest of the organization. And ultimately, we work with them to get vision traction healthy throughout the entire organization. So that's what we do and and then, you know, kind of determining if it's to help the to help them learn more about it, and determining right fit, we offer, you know, a ninety day could we call it or I'm sorry, ninety minute meeting. We call it the ninety minute meeting and we would sit down and share with the owner and the ownership or the leadership team how we can help them get vision traction healthy in their business.
Jonathan: So I have to ask you, how hard was the certification process when you decided like, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna go do this and and be a professional implementer? was it was it a fun process to go through?
Kurt Larsen: fun and challenging. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean yeah, I mean i
Jonathan: Define fun, right?
Kurt Larsen: well so we from from I mean from my perspective, I've I ran on EOS for eleven years at Viking, right? So I had the background coming in of knowing, you know, the benefit of running on it. and I also had the benefit as you know, one of my implementers, you know, I also knew on a personal level. So sometimes I got inside baseball as to and I was I'm always a curious person. So I was always, why are we doing it this way? What does that mean? Tell me a little more about this. And I you know, they would share information to help, you know, to help me. So so I think I had some benefit there. but yeah, I mean you you have to it's one one of the things I love about being an implementer is it's your job to be a pro's pro when it comes to being a coach, teacher, and facilitator. And it's a big EOS community and it's all about you know continuous learning and being the best that you can be and and being able to help. So but yeah there's there's definitely a lot of preparation and a lot of continuous work to to be the best you can when it comes to being an implementer.
Jonathan: Yeah. And and you brought up the word help before and and I think that is one of the core values of EOS or at least from a strategic standpoint, they do talk a lot about, you know, being helpful. So
Kurt Larsen: Right, absolutely. Help first is is is is a is a core value for sure. and that's what we're we're here to do. And I think I think a lot of implementers, they've been through the grind. they know what it's like. You know, there's a lot of things I know. I don't look at all the gray hair I got, Jonathan. And you know it's not
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: you know and it's like you want you're at your point where you're like, I've learned a ton. I there's a lot of things I wish I knew. I wish I would have done differently, definitely for sure. Right. And I and and and the feeling you give of helping somebody else is is just tremendous, right? And
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: and you wanna take all the things that you learn and this is a proven system. It like you guys said, it's a simple set simple set of tools, proven system. And that's the beauty of it. I don't have to change anything. It's my job to teach it pure. And you want to be able to help small businesses and and owners and and leadership teams run a better business and and live a better life. So
Jonathan: Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing. If you have time, let's get a little bit more granular on the EOS. If we can dig down a little bit and get some some nuggets for our our listeners. But you know, what does EOS give an owner or the leadership team? what what does that give them that they often don't have before they start EOS? Right. So if you're not on, you're not running on EOS, you know, you were at Viking running EOS for eleven years, but You know, if if there's a company that, you know, fits the your avatar and I think it's a minimum of, you know, ten employees, but someone over ten employees and there's a leadership team, what does EOS give them that they may not have today? I know you've talked about accountability, so I think that would probably be, you know, one thing, but is there anything else?
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I mean when I think when you say vision, traction healthy, vision is generally speaking about alignment, right? Getting everybody aligned in the organization, rowing in the same direction. You mentioned traction is about discipline, focusing, accountability. And then team health is super important, right? That that's at the high level. And then we work with them, and I don't want to give too much of the sauce, the 90 minute really, it's it it does it. That's where you get the that's that's where you get the entire package explains you, and it's it makes a lot more sense, the entire process. But yeah, we work with them on strengthening six key components around their business. and and like I said, your challenges, impurities, imperfections, as well as some opportunities and ideas really become transparent once you start strengthening those things. Six key components of your business.
Jonathan: Okay. And again, we will we'll certainly put your contact information down below. People will be able to click on that link and and contact you. So well thanks for sharing. I I have, you know, just a few more, you know, one of the questions I want to know is, you know, you've been in business, you've had all these really cool various roles, you know, and there's a lot of good companies, right? You know, Viking was a really good company, and then a lot of the companies that you're working with, they're really good companies, but why why would you or what would you say Why do companies get stuck? Where they look like they hit a plateau and we're working with a lot of companies that aren't using traction, but you know, they get stuck at a certain revenue and then they can't blow through that, you know. So do you if you have any insight to that, it'd be great to hear it with you know, your thirty five years of business experience. Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: Well, I mean, I think there's thank you for that. I mean, I I I think there's a lot of reasons. We sometimes we refer to that as hitting the ceiling. and there
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: can be a lot of reasons. I mean, I think sometimes the the adage is what got you here won't get you there, right?
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: so sometimes the the desire to grow can create complexity that either the structure can't support or the people can't support. That can happen, right? sometimes a business is trying to do too many things and they really need to simplify to grow and do better. sometimes they need to create better systems. Maybe they're producing products, but it takes them nine months to get it out the door or and then quality isn't there all the time. Maybe they have to, you know, do a better job with systems, right? So they can get the product out quality. sometimes the leadership team can become a the bottleneck. And you know, in the first stage of growth, you know, you're s you expand a little bit, now all the decisions are running through three, seven key people and it they just become the bottleneck and they need to get better at delegating and elevating, right? could be processes. Sometimes you gotta streamline your processes and make sure that everybody in the business is following the process. That creates consistency and scalability. There's I mean there's there's different things that we teach and work with leadership teams to help them break through the ceiling when they encounter it in their business. But yeah, there's a lot of things that can happen. And sometimes you're in a business and you sell product and and you need to develop a new product and you may have competition that comes into play but but we do work with leadership teams on on on improving skills and abilities to help them break through the ceiling. But good question.
Jonathan: Yeah, thank you. Well, we we just spent three days in Miami for training
Kurt Larsen: Yeah.
Jonathan: and one of our takeaways on our roadmap implementation is is is Brett and I have to become better leaders, right? We've operated one way for so many years and it's like we're really trying to do a lot of self-reflecting and and realized, you know, where we're at as an organization is for us to take the next step, we've gotta become better leaders. So I I can appreciate that is you know, we've got to look in the mirror because I brought up Harry Truman yesterday in in a conversation. And for those of you don't know, Harry Truman was one of the presidents of the US. He was a Midwest guy, and he had a plaque on his desk that said, you know, the buck stops here. Just kind of an old you know, the buck
Kurt Larsen: yeah.
Jonathan: stops here, right? So we've got to take r responsibility. And and one of the things that we like to talk about here and is is being radically open minded. You know, don't don't be stubborn, right? Try to be, and that was something I picked up from Ray Dalio. who is one a a famous investor here in the United States, but he was like, You just gotta be radically open minded and don't think you know it all. So, you know, I think and what's nice about you is if someone decides to to spend the money on EOS, I think they're taking that step because they are open minded in real life to get to the next level, they've got to they've got to break some things.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, and I think well it's th that's that's a great point. I mean being open minded, getting different perspectives and the world is changing so quick nowadays, right? you know, we we we could the AI subject and everything else, but but but how you lead and how businesses are competing and everything's changing really fast. So definitely what got you where you are isn't gonna get you go, you know, help you grow going forward. You have to be open to change and and you know if you're gonna y people have processes in their business, right? You have a process for everything you do, HR process, marketing process, whatever. Do you have a process to run your business? You know, that's that's that's the question I like. Do you have a process to run your business? 'Cause that's really what you're investing in when when you invest in EOS, a process to help you run your business.
Brent: Yeah, one of the things that we use with EOS is, you know, issue resolution, right? Identifying issues and problems. And you know, share with us, you know, the reason with your experience why, you know, leadership groups talk about the same problems over and over again and and never solve them, and then maybe how some components of EOS might get them, you know, over the finish line per se.
Kurt Larsen: good question. yeah, I think generally speaking, leadership teams come together with the with pure hearts and their desire to solve the issue, right? But they, you know, they spend all their time discussing the issue, right? They discuss the daylights out of the issue. You may get some people back and forth on they've got the solution. You got this, you know, start politicking and repeating themselves and sometimes the loudest person wins and and and they're they're just discussing the daylights. But like typically they don't walk out of there with somebody making a decision, taking an action plan to go solve it. But even more importantly A symptom was written down and they didn't really identify the issue at the root cause. I mean I can attest to doing this Often in a in in our struggles with young leaders is like it was just the symptom that we were listing. We didn't we didn't dig down deep into the organization and really get the root cause and identify the root cause of the issue. And then somebody takes something, a plan of action and a responsibility to end it and make it go away forever. I think we just would treat symptoms and then it would come back, you know, three months later and it would be like, didn't we just discuss this, you know? and then some Sometimes they don't solve it because they're more they're willing to sometimes live with the short term pain than the maybe the solution, the one the the it's it's a long solution. Sometimes documentation is isn't viewed as profitable right away and it's a it's a long grinding solution. you know, I it's necessary, but sometimes that gets kicked to the curb. But but oftentimes they just don't identify the the root cause of the issue.
Brent: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. there's you we've talked about you know accountability and and micromanagement already. And in in in the US there's a a component of accountability and I would say less from a micromanagement, but you can you explain the differences in those two a little bit and and what they mean to you from a management perspective?
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I mean I think we touched on this a little bit with with accountability being more about outcomes. and when I think when people talk about micromanaging they're talking about process and having somebody over your shoulder tell you exactly what to do all the time, right? And you know, ideally you are you are you are sharing vision with people so everybody feels part of the vision and then everybody's responsible for in EOS we use a scorecard for teams, gives you the five to fifteen key numbers that helps you keep a pulse on your business and then and then everybody in the organization gets a measurable so a number that you're accountable for hitting, right? And and that makes people feel of a team you're you're all contributing and driving towards a measurable or number so you're part of the big organization it's not just the leadership team that's out there with a scorecard or or a measurable right and I think that creates a sense of belonging partnership and buy-in that goes along with that accountability I think I talk about if you share the vision you're more likely to get buy-in and people to hold themselves accountable driving helping you drive the vision so So that's how I see, you know, accountability happening in in the OS.
Jonathan: Thank you for sharing that, Kurt. this has been a lot of fun. Are you having fun?
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I mean this I I can talk EOS all day.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: I'm surprised I'm surprised I've I don't think I've used a sports analogy yet. And I'm like, I thought for sure with the three of us, we would have
Brent: Yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: sports analogies going on like crazy. I think one time you asked me, you go, because I was thinking about this, and you go, well, what what what has to happen as at a company for them to need EOS? And it's like, well, I thought about that and I'm like, I got a
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: great sports analogy for that one. So it's like, okay, well, it's it's it's for I think it's for every business that's between 10 and 250 employees, but that I I'm obviously Biased. But in my mind, you can be 10 and 0, 8 and 2, 5 and 5, or 2 and 8. You need a process to run your business, and you should be on EOS. Because you never know if you're if you're 2 and 8, you think, well, I want to get to 5 and 5 to get right. So I'll invest in the process, right? That's going to help my business, help me grow, help me. But if you're 10 0, what if you're winning all your games by a field goal? Do you think the team that's 8 2 is is going to sit down in the offseason and not try to be you next year not you know your competition's not trying to get 10 and so you've got to be maybe you're 10 and but you're not taking advantages of all the opportunities and things that you can do and maybe you should be winning by a touchdown or 10 points. So I had someone saying well do you have to be broken and it's like you don't have to be broken to get the benefits of EOS. So there's my I had to inject my first sports analogy today.
Brent: Yeah, no, that's
Kurt Larsen: Although we did
Jonathan: Well I
Kurt Larsen: get in the one we got in the one with the gym. That was okay. Right, for sure.
Brent: Yeah, that's great and it resonates well with all our Minnesota teams, right? I like I like the fact that you sit idle in the off season because there's a couple of teams in Minnesota that continuously do that.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, that's true.
Jonathan: boy, we we we're we're getting dangerously off the tracks. Yeah, we we love sports.
Brent: So question on you know investing in EOS, right? There's a a time commitment, there's a financial commitment. and and ultimately it's not a and and John and I talk about this all the time, it's not about making people feel happy and feel good about themselves. We want them to make more money, right? you talked about scaling Viking 3x, right? as the company grows, does the owner need to change? You know, what what has to change at the top as a as a company continues to grow? Is is it important for the for the owner to change along the way? talk a little bit about that if you could.
Jonathan: And then if I can just add something to that, Brent, because I think we struggle with that. And I know a lot of the people that we work with struggle like that. A lot of the companies that we we work with, you know, we're a marketing agency and we focus on the home service businesses. And a lot of our clients are owner operators that own these landscape irrigation, tree service companies, right? And they have a hard time getting out of their own way because they think they can do it better than everyone else. And I think, Brent, I think we struggle with that a little bit too. It's like Well, hell, I'll just be I'd be better off doing it ourselves, right? When if you give it to someone else, maybe they can do it to seven seventy percent or eighty percent of what we can. But I I think that's a struggle that we need to work on as well. And we've talked about that and we see it a lot with our owner operators too. A lot of times these owner operators are in the field as well, and they can't get out of their own way and build out their crews and their teams like that. So Didn't mean to jump on that, but I wanted to add that into that question for Kurt, 'cause I think it's it it's a really important question, is how do we get out of our own way, I think is what you're asking.
Brent: Yeah, for sure.
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, I think, you know, so so it it bring it it it I it I think of the the story of, you know, the hiker that falls off the cliff, right? And And he grabs the vine and he's he's dangling and he can't go up and he can't go down and and he and he looks up and says, Is there anybody to help me? And there's you know this booming voice that says, you know, do you trust me? And they say, yeah, I trust you. And it says, Okay, well let go of the vine, right? And the hiker looks around, he looks back up and he goes, Is anybody else up there? Because it's it's very it's it's hard to let
Brent: Yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: go of the vine, right? So I mean that's ultimately Yeah, at the time you probably do do the job better than anybody can. But if you want to grow and scale and especially for you know for that or someday sell and have a succession plan, you are going to have to teach people to do what you do and or bring people around you and build out a team to be able to do that because you can't scale it. You won't have the capacity to do it. and it and that's just the challenge of going from, you know, the the the the one to three, five person gig to to company and to grow. You have to do those type things. And it's hard to let go of the vine. I had a conversation with a friend the other day and and he's he we're going through like he's just start he he knows EOS and he starts bringing out the accountability chart and he's like in four of the seats, you know. And every time he writes his name down, he looks at me, he's just waiting for me to say something. And I and I don't even need to say anything because he's he starts and he just completes the sentence for me. He goes, and I'm in too many seats. And I'm like
Brent: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: you know, we start going through it and I said, How's this working for you? How do you think you're gonna grow your business? Do you think you can stay in all these seats and triple your business like you want? How's that gonna work? It's like
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: no, you know, they know the answer, but you kind of just have to our job is just Use the tools, walk them through the exercise and say, you know, ultimately, what are you going to do? But you need to make a decision. You're either going to stay this way forever, or or we need to start building out your leadership team. And you're going to have to put in controls and you're going to have to let go of the vine. But I I completely understand how difficult it is.
Jonathan: It it's it's it's not easy. And I one thing that you just did there that I really enjoyed is you how you role played asking them questions and 'cause they know the answer. So you're just facilitating and getting the answers and then you can y use what their word hey, you just told me that you can't do it based on the questions I just asked you, right? So I love the questioning aspect of it. We read a book, Brent, and we just saw him speak. For those of you out there, it's called Mar Marcus Sheridan is the author. you ask, they answer, I believe is the name of the book. Marcus Sheridan, they ask, you answer. Fantastic speaker, and his whole premise is just asking questions, asking questions, asking questions. So I can appreciate the question asking him your your friend that you're helping out there, and it's like they don't they they know the answer. And if they don't know the
Kurt Larsen: Yeah.
Jonathan: answer, it's like, hey, what would you know? Well, how would you solve that problem? Because I think as business owners and leaders, right, you want to solve the problem for It's like, well, here's what I would do and you gotta go do this and you go down to the mail room and you do this and and it's like, Well, what would you do? How would you solve that problem? So I I can appreciate
Kurt Larsen: Yeah, that's
Jonathan: that.
Kurt Larsen: that's a great point. I mean we're we're coach we're we're teachers, facilit facilitators and coaches. We will coach and challenge, put support, but it's not really my job to make it's not my job to make decisions for I ask the questions. If they ask, I may share some experiences that I've had, right? So but but otherwise the the like you said, the answer's in the room. Right?
Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah.
Kurt Larsen: You know, if they especially if they have the right people. But like the answer's in the room, you're just going through a process to make things super transparent and and and it's there for them to solve.
Jonathan: Yeah, fantastic. Well, a few more questions and we'll wrap up. I'm grateful for your time. I think we've got some absolute great, great content. I I love talking about EOS and and really helping our listeners out. So again, thank you for jumping on. couple closing questions. You know, what would you say is the biggest leadership lesson that you've learned or a a couple of lessons that you've learned in your successful thirty-five plus year career?
Kurt Larsen: I would have to say I had some really good leaders ahead of me and I think sometimes early on I would try to maybe emulate those leaders. And and be maybe more of them because I was like, well, this person was so great. And I and I tried to be them, and and it, and then eventually someone came to me and says, you know, Kurt, in order for you to be the best you and and serve your customers the best, the people that work with you and for you the best, is you have to be the authentic you. Like you have to be you. That is how you are going to create the best relationships. You know, be authentic, be open and honest. Like be the best you but be you. Don't try to don't try to emulate somebody else, even if they were a you know, a mentor of yours or good lead. Like you have to be you, and that's the only real way you'll be authentic and create connections and trust with people. That was like outstanding advice. And at the same time it was sort of a relief. Like, you know, we just get to be the the guys from White Bear North So we just get to be who we are and being, you know, authentic and and Honest is the is the is the best best management advice advice that I received.
Jonathan: I absolutely love that one and I don't want to speak for Brent, but you know, we always say, Hey, what you see is what you get w with us too. And it's like we wear it right here and you know, we're we're we wear our emotions on our sleeve. Brent, not Brent so much, but I'm the more the animated one. But you know, what you see is what you get, right? We're not gonna Brent is not gonna be on the podcast and be all animated, right? That's not his personality. And I think that's why we make a good team and it and it's certainly a lot easier being yourself. Right. If if you you it it
Kurt Larsen: percent.
Jonathan: it's hard to emulate other people and it it like you said, and I really like what you said as far as it the authentic you, be the authentic you. So that that's a great
Brent: Yep.
Jonathan: nugget.
Brent: That definitely ties into marketing strategy as well, John and right. We always talk about that with our clients. You just want to create authentic content and have an authentic brand and don't try to be somebody else, right? create your brand and just run with it. And if if people like it, great. If they don't, they're probably not the ideal customer for you. So move on to somebody else. But that was a a great share, Kurt. We appreciate that.
Jonathan: Yeah, well I I think I don't have anything else. You know, I'm grateful to have you on. And for those of you if that's your first listen, with Build to Win, our podcast, as I mentioned earlier, we want to talk about marketing, sales, faith, building a life that matters. And we're grateful to have Kurt on to talk about EOS and how to how to build a better company to help business owners fulfill their why, right? So think about what your why is and Potentially how you could incorporate maybe EOS into your business. It's been it's been great for us. so in closing, I think, you know, we always liked part of our podcast, as I mentioned, is talking about faith. I've got a I've got a a scripture I'd like to share today, and then I'll turn it over to Kurt that I think is relevant to what we've talked today about. And it's it's it's really about surrounding yourself with talented people. You can't go at this alone. You know, I've been lucky to have a business partner for thirty years and I I can't imagine, you know, you know, we built Digital Planet up and had a successful exit and we're we're we're enjoying doing it again with our our company, JBAC strategies. And it sure is a lot more fun doing this with other people and surrounding yourself with talented leadership teams and building those out. So Proverbs I'll get back to it, I think it's fifteen twenty two and I don't have my reading glasses with me, but it says plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed. You know, with many advisors they succeed. So don't be afraid to to bring people in that you think can help your business out. And Kurt, do you have a do you have a a favorite scripture? I know you're a man of faith and it's important to you. Do you have anything you'd like to share on that?
Kurt Larsen: yeah, I mean my favorite is as well, you know, off I I know we're we we both go to Eagle Brook, right? We're e we're we're EBC guys. but I I often and and Bob Merritt's my guy, right? So he he's my favorite. No I I love the other guys, but I just I think he's he's the original for me and my favorite, but You know, he talks a lot about dealing with with it that you you know, adversity is part of life and you will see adversity in your life and it helps build your character. That's that's that's where the real growth comes from. And then the verse that sticks with me whenever I am going through adversity is is Philippians four thir thirteen, and that's just hey I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. and and and I'm not I don't do a ton of Bible verses every day, but you know, I do I do some things in the morning and that's the thing I say to myself because, you know, to expect it versus today but just know that just part that's just part of growth and and and then that that you can persevere and we'll be better for it.
Jonathan: Yeah, thanks for sharing. And I appreciate that. And and for those of you out there, if you're struggling in business or life and you do have adversity, like Kurt talked about, and you and you think you don't have anyone to talk to, certainly reach out to us. You've got the the big man upstairs. if if you have any questions on on scripture or anything like that, feel free to reach out to myself or Brent. But you are not alone in your journey. And Kurt Grateful to have you on. it's been great to catch up after all these years and super excited that that you could join built to win. So thank you very much. And we'll see you next time.
Kurt Larsen: Thanks for having me today. It was great time.
Brent: Yeah, thanks Kurt. Appreciate it. Awesome, awesome job.
Kurt Larsen: Thanks, Brent.
