Josh Intro: Welcome to Alter Everything, a podcast about AI analytics and the future of work. I'm your host, Joshua Burkow. Right now, everyone is racing to add AI skills to their resume. They're looking for the latest certifications, the latest training, the video that is going to give them that little nudge ahead that they're looking for. Whether the AI skill really truly matters or not. This is what I'm most worried about, is that there are so many folks that are not stopping to ask, what truly is gonna matter in the next age of AI, in the next two, three, four years? What tangible skills will really make the difference? Now, my next guest has built his entire career around answering this question. I'm joined by Jordan Morrow, whether he likes to admit it or not, widely known as the Godfather of data literacy. He's the SVP of data and AI transformation at Agile One. He's a TEDx speaker. He's an author of numerous books on the topic of data literacy. with this latest one called Data and AI Skills, Gain the Confidence You Need to Succeed. In this conversation, we get past all the buzzwords and into really what separates those people who thrive in an AI world from those people that are gonna get left behind. We talk about which skills are becoming more valuable over the next few years, which ones are quietly becoming overrated, and why the biggest gap might not be a skills gap It might be a confidence gap. Jordan, welcome to the show.
Joshua Burkhow: Jordan, you're quite recognized in our in our world, especially on the topic of data literacy, which I I know you're pretty passionate about.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: rumor is I heard you've claimed the title or you someone has called you the godfather
Jordan Morrow: No.
Joshua Burkhow: of data literacy. Is this true?
Jordan Morrow: It is. I did not claim it though. In fact, I have a hard time with it. years ago, and the person who told me this, her name's Valerie Logan, she and I were kind of the voices who got all of it started back in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, and she was basically like, You know what they call you, right? And I'm like, No, I'm just I'm just a nerd. Like, let me just do my
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Morrow: thing and she said, Yeah, they call you the godfather of data literacy. I'm like, Whatever. Like, no,
Joshua Burkhow: There you go.
Jordan Morrow: I I struggle with it, but it's out there.
Joshua Burkhow: so just a a quick intro if you don't mind. I I see that
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: you're senior VP of of data and AI transformation at Agile One, but like you wanna fill in all the other
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: stuff, Bodhi Data and that stuff?
Jordan Morrow: Yeah, so yeah, in my day day-to-day life, senior vice president data and AI at an organization called Agile One. but I do own my own company, Bounty Data, which is where I do all my book writing, my speaking, advisory stuff. All in all, man, just a big nerd. I love topics in data and AI. I love empowering everybody, not just data and AI professionals, hence where the whole world of literacy came from. and yeah, I mean it's an exciting time to be alive, that's for sure.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah, yeah, I I can't get away from the fact that you're you put out a good number of books already and and it's
Jordan Morrow: I've written five and I'm talking tomorrow, the day after we record this with my editor to get book six going. So never did I imagine I'd love writing as much as I do,
Joshua Burkhow: I want to get into this. It's gonna be just fun. you and I have sort of crossed paths in multiple ways, but I'm I'm really huge on this idea as as AI starts to to roll out and become more prominent. that the human aspect to all these things. I've
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: I've had three or four guests on now who have all sort of touched on the the sort of integration or the collaboration of human and and AI as it comes out. But I I haven't talked about the sort of data literacy landscape. And I I'm
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: really fascinated by it. I've I've come up through the ranks and attribute a large portion of my success was just the knowing and having that data literacy. You know, I I went to school, but like you don't really learn these things until you're in the trenches and
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: you you get to Do your rounds on these things. I'd love to get into this and and let's start off with the this idea that there is enormous eva investment happening right now in AI. We everybody and their mother can can see that. there's training programs, there's co-pilots, there's all these new tools, but yet many organizations are struggling with this sort of foundational things. And that I'm I'm a huge advocate for the the sort of first principles, getting to the foundation of that because we all know if you if you learn Latin in school you can go on to learn many different languages because there's so
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: many you know as aspects of other languages that are tied into that. and when we talk about these sort of sometimes taken as cliche things like data into decisions or even just getting employees to actually trust and use the insights that they're they're given. and building this culture. Well I I'd really love to get your perspective here. Let let's start off in in that regard.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah, like So many are talking about the human integration. In fact, one of the main keynotes that I give now is all about being human in the age of AI. What does that actually mean? I started pioneering data literacy back in 2016, which is for the 90 to 99% of people who are not data and AI professionals, how do you take your seat at the table? How do you get yourself comfortable using these things? And I remember when ChatGPT in November 2022 went live. Right? GPT had been around for years, but ChatGPT to the masses went live
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: and exploded, right? Fastest to 100 million or whatever users. I actually thought to myself that am I now obsolete? Is data literacy obsolete? And
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm. Same.
Jordan Morrow: I had a good friend of mine, Christina, she's no, it became more important. And I a hundred percent agree with her at this point. Like when you look at the technology and and people are talking about the integration of human and AI, but very little, I would argue, are doing much in reality around it. They think they are, but
Joshua Burkhow: Totally agree. Totally agree.
Jordan Morrow: So to to me, this human aspect, I love by the way that you mentioned the term first principles. Anyone who doesn't understand what first principles thinking is. It's what every organization on the planet should be doing to build foundational
Joshua Burkhow: I mean yeah.
Jordan Morrow: data in AI. In fact, this book right there, it's called We Are As Gods. it's the number one book I recommend on AI at this point. And it dives into
Joshua Burkhow: Mm.
Jordan Morrow: first principles thinking. And anyone who doesn't understand it, after this podcast, either pick this book up.
Joshua Burkhow: To go straight to it.
Jordan Morrow: I don't get any royalties, I should.
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm.
Jordan Morrow: but start to think that so this human intersection, it's not AI versus human.
Joshua Burkhow: Mm.
Jordan Morrow: human It's AI plus human. And that's where my formula engineered intelligence comes into play. It's two part tech, data and AI, two part human, IQ and EQ. Right. And then I think one of the reasons companies are jumping on these things to buy technology and buy tools is it makes them feel good. I've accomplished something
Joshua Burkhow: Basic.
Jordan Morrow: because I bought this tool but you're not getting value from it. And so This integration of the human and literacy, it really is how do we empower everyone to be confident and comfortable at their need to use data and AI to improve their situation? It's not bolting AI on top with a chatbot, it's fundamentally getting back to first principles that root truth of everything. And if you do that, including how you upskill and reskill humans, organizations can thrive. But if you don't, you're just gonna put a
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. It's it is interesting to think about because you know, every software company that's trying to roll out their software, there's an aspect of of training. Some are much easier, you know, the you get Chat G B T out to the masses and people just start using it, but there i isn't a whole lot of consideration about okay, do you actually understand the foundation and and
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: the the argument I get into you know, mo more often than not is like, I know how to click the buttons. I know how to go to settings. I know how to configure, but they don't have the sort of subject matter behind it that actually makes that valuable, that turns it
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: into where you can make decisions. so I I spent a good number of years at a little tiny shoe company. most people don't know it's Nike. Ver really small place. but I used to be in global supply chain and I used to work for the the head of global supply chain and he was notorious for his ability to understand the numbers. And I used to build him the team that I was on, we used to build him this 200 to 300 slide deck that he would have printed out and bound every month. And he would go through and Damn near memorize this thing. But my point in all this was I got to see what the sort of peak of understanding what data is. He he wasn't like, you know, the hyper technical. He was decent, like he couldn't hold
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: his own. but the thing that really just blew people away, he would get in a a supply chain review, a meeting. And he could quote numbers and and understand the relationships between these by by understanding all these sort of elements of what got him there to that that outcome.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: And and I think this is I I also don't think it's necessary to go overboard, but there
Jordan Morrow: No.
Joshua Burkhow: is this sort of realization that when you see how it is done well, you start to have another level of appreciation for it. Do you think that's a problem? Is that people don't really see the tangibleness of what data literacy means to to organizations?
Jordan Morrow: Yeah, well and and I think it boils down to in one degree, we're too distracted. One
Joshua Burkhow: There it
Jordan Morrow: hundred percent we are too distracted. I mean, if we were to take a survey of everyone who listens to this episode over the months and years and say how many of you do not have a busy job in life, I would argue no one would tell us that they don't have a busy job or life.
Joshua Burkhow: Big zero. Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: But does busyness equate to effectiveness? And I think that that is something that is missing. That person that was in charge of supply chain had probably studied for years. Didn't happen overnight. He had grown to learn these things. And we as humans get so distracted with the magician showing you what's in this hand, the fundamental things that we should be doing. Aren't happening. Like buying a tool is the magician showing you this when in reality are you getting your data right, the skills right, all that. Like, and part of it is, in in fairness, there are very good data literacy detectives on this planet, and you who it is? It's children. Children are natural. I've got five kids, you've got kids, they are naturally figuring every freaking thing out. They ask a
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: million questions. We become adults, and what happens? We get caught in the rat race. Go do your job, build your dashboard. Supply this, do that. When was the last time? Right before our call, I meditated. Right this morning, I
Joshua Burkhow: Right.
Jordan Morrow: read. This morning, I journaled. Before the day got ahead of me, it was personal deep focus for me to be able to succeed. When was the last time someone put like closed their laptop, put their phone away for an hour, and just wrote notes on ideas around problems? They don't do that. But do you know how much value would come from that? And then the other
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. That's right.
Jordan Morrow: side of being busy is I think we sell ourselves short on. Data literacy. Here's my smartphone. Next week I'm traveling over to England to speak at an event. I
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm.
Jordan Morrow: will check the weather app to know what to pack weather-wise. That's data literacy. 100%. And that supply chain leader you had, you remember my formula, engineered intelligence, two-part tech. You were
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm.
Jordan Morrow: providing the data and the tech to him. His IQ and his EQ would kick in because he could connect things together. When 90 to 99% of us do not go to school. For this, you mentioned you could teach someone where to point and click in a dashboard. Does that teach them
Joshua Burkhow: Easy.
Jordan Morrow: how to connect it to strategy, business problems, and value? That has been going on for years with data. It is now going on with AI until companies really assert this ability to study and learn foundationally. First principles, read and by the way, AI is amazing because it can help us build everything from the ground up. It's amazing, it doesn't take much time. But we're just bolting it on, doing the same old, if we're getting more efficient at doing stupid crap, we're just doing stupid crap more efficiently. So I
Joshua Burkhow: Yep. Yep. I
Jordan Morrow: encourage everybody, shut things down for an hour a day. You might not think you have the time, but I would argue you can't afford to not do it.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. It's it's so true. When you when you get into organizations and you you talk to to leaders, is it a skill issue on top of that? it is it you know a confidence thing? Like what is the precursor to the distraction? it
Jordan Morrow: I agree. i you busyness helps people feel like they're effective.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: You and I both know that's not the case. It is a confidence issue, right? It is a skill issue. We fear what we don't know. there's intimidation because maybe they think they need to be AI engineers, and that's the whole world of data literacy. came about because not everyone needs to be a data scientist. You just need to have confidence in using data to make better decisions. So there's fear, intimidation, mindset, confidence. What's so funny about everything we're describing? Yes, we know you need good technical data for AI to thrive. Majority of your success is based on the humans and actually being confident enough to use it and deliver value. That does not come because the data's right. That becomes you got the foundation right in the person. Then they can seek to go do better with it. And they will know the data's not right when it hallucinates too much or when it does this or when it does that. It's the human through and through. So I'm happy people are talking about it, but they they need to go the next step forward. They're not talking about or doing. There's talk and there's action. Do more. Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: I watched this video from Andre Karpathi just recently, who if you haven't been watching him, he's phenomenal. He's got such a down to earth way to to explain it. He's he's absolute genius. But he was sharing his own experience and getting into AI, specifically around the sort of anxiety that he he has now. And I I'm sort of juxtaposing the the human elements that we all show up to work with and all have, along with someone who, you know, like Andre, no he's been doing his PhD, he's been doing this AI deep research for 20 years. He knows his stuff. And yet even himself has has shown that He has anxiety all the time. He's, you know, he he got one thread going and he's like, Okay, am I productive? Can I do more? Can I and it's this sort of, you know, it's the distraction, it's that sort of anxiety, it's that the confidence. All of these things are tangible. Like they're they're part of this whole
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. You feel?
Joshua Burkhow: this whole landscape.
Jordan Morrow: I love what you're getting at. And this goes back to shutting things off. There's a great book out there by Joan Hari called Stolen Focus. And so many people are worried about our minds going to mush from AI. The reality is it started with social media. They hijacked our brains and our dopamine. Our attention spans are shorter. So there's this, you know, what you were just describing from him, this anxiety-induced feeling. Could I be doing more? What should I be doing here? What should I be doing there? First principles thinking. First principles thinking for humans is what makes us human: being in nature, connecting with others, doing things of that sort, learning, studying, That makes us human can get rid of the anxiety-induced feelings. Like, imagine just going out on a Saturday night, you're not talking AI, you're not doing social media, you're not doing any of that, you're with a few people, maybe having a couple pints, getting some food, and you're just shooting the breeze. No one's on their phone. Do you feel any Anxiety from that? No, you probably feel fulfilled. And it's because you got back to a first principle around humans with evolution. I have Darwin's origin of species behind me, right? It's what makes us human. And it's so funny because people are like, well, AI this, AI that, and I get it. But what makes us human makes us better with AI. And Sometimes, and I've told my employees this, they know this. If I hear them on a Friday say, man, what a busy week, I tell them, shut down early and go enjoy your weekend. Some people would sit in there and say, really? But that's wasted hours. It's actually not. Because if I burn my employees through the ground, they're done in the future. So
Joshua Burkhow: Yep.
Jordan Morrow: it it there is a balance and I think we lose sight. I always need to be doing something. That's not confidence, that's busyness coming back to that. And the greatest minds on the planet. We talked about Jeffrey Hinton, right? Nobel Prize winning godfather of AI is drastically worried about it. That should tell you something. Mustafa Suleiman, founder of
Joshua Burkhow: So
Jordan Morrow: Deep Mind, Microsoft AI CEO, deeply worried about it. Last week you just had companies coming out like Anthropics saying Yeah, the biohacking that AI is allowing isn't good. No kidding. Right? So instead
Joshua Burkhow: Hm. Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: of just marching forward, th this is why in my formula, Of the four characteristics in my formula, data plus AI plus IQ, the fourth is the most important. That is EQ, and that is emotional intelligence. What is your self-awareness and what is your awareness of your employees? Sometimes just tell them to take a day off because you can hear the stress in their voice. go off and do something. Go grab lunch if you're in person. Have an hour-long Zoom video game of Some kind because the human side is being forgotten, even though people are talking about it. This is why I emphasize they need to be doing more.
Joshua Burkhow: I wanna get into this next piece and then I might I might come back to to this and
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: because I'd like to chew on a little bit, but mo most conversations about AI and and skills focus on the more direct thing that AI will replace. However, nothing gets me more bent out of shape when I hear s especially senior execs, but you know, directors even saying, yeah, we're replacing our entire software stack or most of our software stack with with AI and I'm just like don't do that. Like that that that's not they
Jordan Morrow: Don't do it. Companies have had to backtrack.
Joshua Burkhow: they like predictable now. I've I've
Jordan Morrow: Yes.
Joshua Burkhow: seen it happen so often now where they're sort of throw caution to the wind. I I sort of tell them like, you do realize you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. This is that that problem is that you're you're getting too fast. And Now that I got you here, I'm starting to think, is this do you consider that sort of challenge a a lack of of literacy and understanding of of AI and all all this? Is that help me understand better then?
Jordan Morrow: Yes. Hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. Jensen Wong, Nvidia, last week ripped companies who were letting people go for the reason of AI.
Joshua Burkhow: Yep.
Jordan Morrow: Sam Altman came out and was like, yeah, I'm not sure the job apocalypse is gonna happen. It's 1000% senior executives literacy that needs to upgrade if they think I'm just gonna get rid of people and replace it with AI. Now, there's no doubt that when industrial revolutions occur, jobs get lost, but jobs get created, right?
Joshua Burkhow: Right. Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: We're watching now token economics versus human economics, and what are we noticing? Tokenization's more expensive than humans. We're not at a commodity point yet where it's the race to the bottom of price. It's gonna get there. But instead of thinking, who do I let go, I would look at work itself. Like my my current day job boss is Brian Clark, president of Agile One. He calls it where can we replace soul-sucking work with AI? And then release people's creativity to do more. It is fundamentally improper of leadership to say we're gonna let go of 10% of staff to invest in AI. Well, first off, maybe before letting anybody go, double check your data's even ready for it. Just throw that out there.
Joshua Burkhow: Most of the time it's not right. You know this.
Jordan Morrow: Most of the time it's not. And this is across any company. I don't care.
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm.
Jordan Morrow: It is fundamentally flawed to think we're just gonna replace like we're on the internet right now, different parts of the world recording a podcast. When the internet came along It burst at one point, but did the power of it leave? No. Did jobs get shifted? Yes. We don't have lamp lighters anymore. We have electrical lamps. We're not necessarily have a ton of horse and buggies. We have cars. things evolve. So instead of companies saying, we're gonna let people go because we're doing AI, I would like to hear them say, we are investing more in humans because we have AI. That's
Joshua Burkhow: Right.
Jordan Morrow: the answer to it. If you do that right,
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: my goodness, can you thrive? Absolutely
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: thrive.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. I I think the the piece that I just throw my my personal opinion in that is we've had companies doing layoffs and and letting people go for hundred years in business. but I think the the ease of the chaos of what AI is providing is really concerning. And I I think
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: I I like an R CEO who you know, he he sort of had such a beautiful way of putting it. He's like, hey, I expect the the humans in this company will become more productive. And if they become more productive, then we don't have to necessarily grow in in human capacity, which is what happens a lot of times. They they overhire hire more people than the company can sustain in the future. And then of course you gotta let let go. but it's this sort of mindset that I I I keep coming back to is like having people really understand the fundamentals of technology, how technology cycles of it all. We we talk about the the hype cycle ad nauseum.
Jordan Morrow: Yep.
Joshua Burkhow: and and it's pretty damn predictive. Like it's pr pretty close to w play out. And
Jordan Morrow: Every we're seeing it happen with AI right now.
Joshua Burkhow: it's I I also had to get this one in. I have I have this new new theory that I watch for when I talk to people and I and I go into organizations. And you know the cliche is an aha moment. Like you gotta have an aha moment. I I call it the O S H I T moment. but I think you have to have two of them. You have the first one where you realize that AI is way more powerful than you had conceptualized, right? And and a lot of people have just have a very visceral sort of feeling, like, yeah, I have that moment when I opened up co-work or a Claude Code and built an app in like a minute or five minutes, and the
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: they're like, holy crap. Then there I'm finding that there's a cadre of us who have gotten to this sort of second. shoot moment where it is the moment when you realize that AI can't do everything. That AI
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: can't do all the things that you will see on
Jordan Morrow: It's not a magic bullet.
Joshua Burkhow: Instagram and and Facebook and LinkedIn.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: And and so this sort of sanity comes back to the human and the human's like, I should probably figure out how to use this most effectively if
Jordan Morrow: Yep.
Joshua Burkhow: it's not, you know, gonna take over absolutely everything. so let's get into the weeds a little bit if you want. where where do you think I'm Johnny Newby. I'm new to an organization, they're run rolling out AI. Where where's the biggest bang for the buck? Where would you say, hey Johnny, you you need to to focus on this area first? if I want to be a sort of literacy guru or at least get on that path of consistent action, where where do I start? Where do I where would you go?
Jordan Morrow: so for years I've had my three C's of data literacy and I think they're more important now than ever and I'm gonna focus on one. The three C's are curiosity, creativity, critical thinking. We're gonna focus on curiosity. Cause children, I call them the best data literacy detectives on the planet. It's they're always asking questions. If I do this, this happens. If I do that, that happens. What causes this? What causes that? If you want to master AI literacy, ask questions and ask them very, very well. Because everything you just described can boil down to a question. What is a transformer model? Huh? How does a frontier model work? Huh? Why is an LLM different than just standard machine learning if we're just building predictive analytics? But fostering your curiosity masters it. Because then you can get into critic creativity. And the third C is critical thinking. AI is probabilistic. It's very good with data. You know what is worse with data than AI? Humans. And it's not even close. AI is better than we are, but we get to blame a machine if we're blaming the the AI, right? But ask questions through and through. And you might be like, well, I don't know what question to start with. Ask AI that. Say, I want to get really good at asking questions, so I'm better with. You at AI, what questions should I be asking you? And just watch what it does. It'll teach you. But if you want to be excellent at anything data in AI, start really honing in your question asking. And then it goes one step further, and that is: how do you apply the learning you get? You do those two things, you'll learn everything you just described. You can just take off, but it boils down to that fundamental thing of just asking why. That's it.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: the one thing I will say going back, a couple questions to the literacy of leaders. Not only do you have to allow people in your company the ability to ask questions, you have to create safety for them that they don't feel like if they ask a question, they're gonna get in trouble for it. You have to
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: create an environment where that just thrives. Because if a person feels like I ask a question, it doesn't go the way I want, I'll be punished. Your culture is wrong. It is a horrible cult. You're done. You've you've lost the business world. So that's
Joshua Burkhow: You're done. You shut down. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Jordan Morrow: where I would piggyback allow questions everywhere, even if you don't think it's a good question. Allow it everywhere and allow people to thrive with it.
Joshua Burkhow: I I think this is just a huge insight for for people is that the onslaught of AI has created an environment where not only is everybody level set, you know, there's there's very few original, you know, 20-year experts, t even ten-year experts in AI. So the ground has been leveled. And now if you have an organization that you can't ask questions to learn when that is the most demanded thing, then don't expect your your company to make a whole lot of progress
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: and and move forward. Right? It's it's almost ludicrous to to consider it.
Jordan Morrow: 100%. It's yeah. The fact that I love what you just said, majority of people, even those who call themselves AI experts, don't have decades of experience. They just don't. And so
Joshua Burkhow: It just don't.
Jordan Morrow: businesses, if you're sitting here saying to yourself, well, I don't need to do this, or we're just gonna keep our culture the same, not with AI, you're not, because what's really interesting to watch with companies right now. I, if if I'm a company, a long-standing company, I don't worry about my competitors. You know what I worry about? Startups. Because startups that get this right from the ground up, who are AI native from the ground up, not bolting on features, they're the ones to worry about because their culture is everything you're gonna thrive. And they're just gonna blow past you because of the capability AI brings. That's why companies, back to first principles, should be scraping everything down to the bottom. And saying, do we even need to do this anymore? If not, what do we put in its place and allow creativity to thrive with AI?
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. Love it. I love it. I I always worry that I would go down random rabbit holes, but like all it it's I'm getting this overall sense like all this stuff is connected. That the
Jordan Morrow: Hundred percent.
Joshua Burkhow: the the the culture of a company is tied to success with AI, it's tied to literacy, tied to the the idea of of getting to first principles and you know, th seeing things much more clearly, the human aspect.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. I do worry, I write about this in my fifth book. I worry that we don't do mental workouts anymore. We don't like journaling is a mental workout, reading is a mental workout. I like poetry. I write it and I read it. Right? Just had another book right. it's right next to me. Arrive in the mail yesterday, a poetry book. So that my brain gets a workout. If you're not doing that and you just turn it like again, I don't think AI started this, it's just making it worse. Social media, I think, started this. We do and And everybody does it. I doom scroll. Everybody does from time to time. But if we are not counteracting that by writing, reading, if we're not working out, we're in big trouble. And this is actually, I'm gonna bring in the whole world of data storytelling and AI storytelling right here. Our brains are designed for it. And my favorite business book on the planet is Creativity Inc., which is the story of Pixar Animation Studios. Want to talk about a business that has kept the culture, the creativity, the human aspect all over. You need to be working out your mental muscles just like if you going back to consistency. If you work out for three weeks and miss six months straight, you're not having the dream body. If you think you
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: can work your brain out for three weeks and then do nothing for six months, it's not gonna happen. You've gotta be consistent, you've got to do stuff.
Joshua Burkhow: I I think this is the part that probably irks me the most is that w we f forget that why we're doing technology in the first place, why we're doing AI in
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: the first place. And it's to make our lives better,
Jordan Morrow: it tools have become this essential thing, but they aren't the thing. And so for me, again, th this the I spoke in Peru and B Brazil in March. Being human in the age of AI. I am in England next week, the closing keynote of the event. being human in the age of AI. And by the way, when 90 to 99% of people are not AI professionals and have fear, fatigue, and overwhelm, when you start talking to them that you matter and that the human matters, they start to get excited. So any leader who listens to this podcast, talk more about the human versus the tech, you're gonna get your culture and your people more on board than if you had bought a tool and said this is our solution.
Joshua Burkhow: I I think that's the the piece that gives me the most hope and the most sort of underlying inspiration is that I think there is a wave of us who see that light. They see
Jordan Morrow: Yes.
Joshua Burkhow: that the idea that AI is not something in and of itself, it's not AI, it's human NAI, it they're listening. You know, they're they're they're opening their ears. They're like, okay, well maybe there's something to be said about this that is tangible, that has some impact to two things.
Jordan Morrow: And that is the the one the like when we think about the internet, at one point it was probably humans versus the internet. Now it is synonymous with your life. I was a
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: holdout on a smartphone. I eventually got one. Now you can't imagine your life without it, for good or bad.
Joshua Burkhow: That's right. Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: Where I think this is where literacy really picks up with AI, though, is people understood probably the internet better than they understand AI. People understood smartphones better than they understand AI. This is why I'm not telling people that they have to become as nerdy as you and me. Just go study. What does a large language model do? Well, it's dissecting all of us, right? It's a
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. That's right.
Jordan Morrow: mirror of who we okay, so I can get a little bit of understanding. Okay, how do I apply that? So just like the internet is synonymous with our lives, smartphones, cars. everything, AI should become synonymous with your life where it is appropriate to fit in. Don't make it the end all be all. Help you achieve your end all be all because it's a tool you can use. So that's what I would tell people is it's just going to be a part of us. Make it be a part of you in an effective way so you're
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: not superseded by it.
Joshua Burkhow: Love it. All right. So Jordan, we're getting up here at time and I usually end these podcasts with a lightning round because I like to
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: sort of get into the head and and off the cuff of of what people are thinking. So I'm gonna Pummel you with a just a handful of questions if you're up for it.
Jordan Morrow: Let's do it. Absolutely.
Joshua Burkhow: All right. most overrated data or AI skill right now. Most overrated.
Jordan Morrow: my gosh. Most overrated proficiency in a tool. Because
Joshua Burkhow: Ooh. All right.
Jordan Morrow: proficiency in a tool does not mean you're bringing value from the tool. I can point and click in a dashboard, doesn't mean I know what to do with it.
Joshua Burkhow: All right, most underrated.
Jordan Morrow: Curiosity, asking good questions.
Joshua Burkhow: Got it. Well done. one thing every organization should stop doing immediately.
Jordan Morrow: Buying tools as a strategy.
Joshua Burkhow: Like it's just like
Jordan Morrow: Ha ha ha ha.
Joshua Burkhow: the I I just wish I I I'm gonna record this, put it on on my phone,
Jordan Morrow: That should be it, our short.
Joshua Burkhow: and anytime somebody says, Hey, I bought a new tool be like listen to Jordan. Like here here's how it works. skill gap
Jordan Morrow: Yep.
Joshua Burkhow: or confidence gap, which one is bigger, more important?
Jordan Morrow: I think more important is confidence. The bigger gap is skills. Confidence allows you to close the skills gap, but I do think the discrepancy between them is bigger, but a lot of people do lack too much confidence.
Joshua Burkhow: Got it. One human capability that becomes non negotiable within I I I initially put the next five years, but feel free to put next year, three, five, whatever. One human capability that becomes non negotiable.
Jordan Morrow: I keep saying curiosity. That will not go away, but I'm gonna bring another one in, and that is critical thinking. And we talked about
Joshua Burkhow: Critical thinking.
Jordan Morrow: in the episode. We can't turn everything over to AI or our brain is gonna become a puddle of mush. We have to critically think on not just AI, but on what people are saying, what social media and the algorithm give us. Question, that's curiosity, but question everything. Critically think on it.
Joshua Burkhow: That's right. All right. Last one, if you could give every data professional, aka AI professional, one book beside your own, what would it be?
Jordan Morrow: We are as gods.
Joshua Burkhow: We are as gods.
Jordan Morrow: So Peter Diamandis and Stephen Cotler, if you listen to this, and I'll probably
Joshua Burkhow: yeah.
Jordan Morrow: tag you, just send me a gift card or a signed copy. the reason
Joshua Burkhow: Mm.
Jordan Morrow: is, is I think it does a very good job of talking about first principles thinking and number two, helping us get into a flow state, i.e., that state where the human's creativity can thrive with AI. But that would be number one. Can I say number two? One B would be
Joshua Burkhow: Let's do it. Let's go.
Jordan Morrow: Karen Howells, it's right there, Empire of
Joshua Burkhow: Okay.
Jordan Morrow: AI. Which is the story of
Joshua Burkhow: yeah, I got that one. That's a great one. Yeah, yeah. I this is actually the one that I'll interject here is anything on the history of AI is gonna be great because
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: you realize that this what didn't get invented when ChatGPT, you know, came out. Right? So
Jordan Morrow: No, nineteen fifty-six. I ask that when I speak. Nineteen fifty six is when the term was coined at Dartmouth University, nineteen fifty-six.
Joshua Burkhow: That's right. Yeah. I mean think about that. Like people have no clue that like this technology came yesterday. It's I I liken
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. No.
Joshua Burkhow: it to the data warehousing industry, which I sort of started into. That was, you know, twenty twenty years in the making before I even got started into it and it's been around and now look, you got the data bricks and the snowflakes of the world that are you know, have lake houses.
Jordan Morrow: Right. Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: All that stuff was not built yesterday, you know. That's right.
Jordan Morrow: Well, it's like data literacy, the field I help invent. The principles are reading, working with, analyzing, communicating with data. That's been around millennia. That cat eats me, that cat doesn't. That berry kills me, that one doesn't. You're just reading data and then communicating with people. We
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: just put it into a bucket that helped people thrive with it. And that that so a lot of these principles are similar. It's like the hype cycle, it just keeps coming. Just keeps coming.
Joshua Burkhow: It's there. All right, buddy, we're we're at the end. Any any last thoughts, any anything that sort of been chugging in your mind through our conversation that you'd like to throw in?
Jordan Morrow: man, I you and I could keep chatting forever. What I would tell people who listen to this, because I have a big audience that aren't gonna be the professional side, is always remember everyone has a seat at the table. That's it. Like everybody. but just cause you sit at a table with a buffet in front of you, you still have to do the work to eat. It doesn't jump into your mouth. Same thing here. You have a seat at the table, just take some time. Fifteen, thirty minutes a day, study, do your work.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. Love it so much. Jordan, thank you so much. I appreciate ya. It's a great great conversation with you and hope I get to run into you s soon enough.
Jordan Morrow: Absolutely. And a as as my long lost brother, as we look alike, right arm tatted, beard, bald. It's good to be with you.
Joshua Burkhow: my gosh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just need to I need to I need to write four more books just to catch up. That's it. Thanks. That's that's no anxiety or pressure right there. Good. Take care, bud.
Jordan Morrow: Yes. Yes. You too.
Joshua Outro: That's it for this episode of Alter Everything. Much appreciate you, Jordan, for coming on the show. If there's one thing to carry out of this, it's this: the future won't belong to those who know the most tools. It's gonna belong to the people who can turn data literacy, AI literacy, communication, and judgment into better decisions. Now, if you want to go deeper, pick up Jordan's latest book, Data and AI Skills. To learn more about what we covered, just simply go over to altrix.com forward slash podcast to check out the show notes. if you got something out of this episode today, please leave us a review. Share it with anyone who you think needs to hear it. You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and anywhere else podcasts are played. Until then, see you the next time.
Joshua Burkhow: Jordan, you're quite recognized in our in our world, especially on the topic of data literacy, which I I know you're pretty passionate about.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: rumor is I heard you've claimed the title or you someone has called you the godfather
Jordan Morrow: No.
Joshua Burkhow: of data literacy. Is this true?
Jordan Morrow: It is. I did not claim it though. In fact, I have a hard time with it. years ago, and the person who told me this, her name's Valerie Logan, she and I were kind of the voices who got all of it started back in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, and she was basically like, You know what they call you, right? And I'm like, No, I'm just I'm just a nerd. Like, let me just do my
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Morrow: thing and she said, Yeah, they call you the godfather of data literacy. I'm like, Whatever. Like, no,
Joshua Burkhow: There you go.
Jordan Morrow: I I struggle with it, but it's out there.
Joshua Burkhow: so just a a quick intro if you don't mind. I I see that
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: you're senior VP of of data and AI transformation at Agile One, but like you wanna fill in all the other
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: stuff, Bodhi Data and that stuff?
Jordan Morrow: Yeah, so yeah, in my day day-to-day life, senior vice president data and AI at an organization called Agile One. but I do own my own company, Bounty Data, which is where I do all my book writing, my speaking, advisory stuff. All in all, man, just a big nerd. I love topics in data and AI. I love empowering everybody, not just data and AI professionals, hence where the whole world of literacy came from. and yeah, I mean it's an exciting time to be alive, that's for sure.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah, yeah, I I can't get away from the fact that you're you put out a good number of books already and and it's
Jordan Morrow: I've written five and I'm talking tomorrow, the day after we record this with my editor to get book six going. So never did I imagine I'd love writing as much as I do,
Joshua Burkhow: I want to get into this. It's gonna be just fun. you and I have sort of crossed paths in multiple ways, but I'm I'm really huge on this idea as as AI starts to to roll out and become more prominent. that the human aspect to all these things. I've
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: I've had three or four guests on now who have all sort of touched on the the sort of integration or the collaboration of human and and AI as it comes out. But I I haven't talked about the sort of data literacy landscape. And I I'm
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: really fascinated by it. I've I've come up through the ranks and attribute a large portion of my success was just the knowing and having that data literacy. You know, I I went to school, but like you don't really learn these things until you're in the trenches and
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: you you get to Do your rounds on these things. I'd love to get into this and and let's start off with the this idea that there is enormous eva investment happening right now in AI. We everybody and their mother can can see that. there's training programs, there's co-pilots, there's all these new tools, but yet many organizations are struggling with this sort of foundational things. And that I'm I'm a huge advocate for the the sort of first principles, getting to the foundation of that because we all know if you if you learn Latin in school you can go on to learn many different languages because there's so
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: many you know as aspects of other languages that are tied into that. and when we talk about these sort of sometimes taken as cliche things like data into decisions or even just getting employees to actually trust and use the insights that they're they're given. and building this culture. Well I I'd really love to get your perspective here. Let let's start off in in that regard.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah, like So many are talking about the human integration. In fact, one of the main keynotes that I give now is all about being human in the age of AI. What does that actually mean? I started pioneering data literacy back in 2016, which is for the 90 to 99% of people who are not data and AI professionals, how do you take your seat at the table? How do you get yourself comfortable using these things? And I remember when ChatGPT in November 2022 went live. Right? GPT had been around for years, but ChatGPT to the masses went live
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: and exploded, right? Fastest to 100 million or whatever users. I actually thought to myself that am I now obsolete? Is data literacy obsolete? And
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm. Same.
Jordan Morrow: I had a good friend of mine, Christina, she's no, it became more important. And I a hundred percent agree with her at this point. Like when you look at the technology and and people are talking about the integration of human and AI, but very little, I would argue, are doing much in reality around it. They think they are, but
Joshua Burkhow: Totally agree. Totally agree.
Jordan Morrow: So to to me, this human aspect, I love by the way that you mentioned the term first principles. Anyone who doesn't understand what first principles thinking is. It's what every organization on the planet should be doing to build foundational
Joshua Burkhow: I mean yeah.
Jordan Morrow: data in AI. In fact, this book right there, it's called We Are As Gods. it's the number one book I recommend on AI at this point. And it dives into
Joshua Burkhow: Mm.
Jordan Morrow: first principles thinking. And anyone who doesn't understand it, after this podcast, either pick this book up.
Joshua Burkhow: To go straight to it.
Jordan Morrow: I don't get any royalties, I should.
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm.
Jordan Morrow: but start to think that so this human intersection, it's not AI versus human.
Joshua Burkhow: Mm.
Jordan Morrow: human It's AI plus human. And that's where my formula engineered intelligence comes into play. It's two part tech, data and AI, two part human, IQ and EQ. Right. And then I think one of the reasons companies are jumping on these things to buy technology and buy tools is it makes them feel good. I've accomplished something
Joshua Burkhow: Basic.
Jordan Morrow: because I bought this tool but you're not getting value from it. And so This integration of the human and literacy, it really is how do we empower everyone to be confident and comfortable at their need to use data and AI to improve their situation? It's not bolting AI on top with a chatbot, it's fundamentally getting back to first principles that root truth of everything. And if you do that, including how you upskill and reskill humans, organizations can thrive. But if you don't, you're just gonna put a
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. It's it is interesting to think about because you know, every software company that's trying to roll out their software, there's an aspect of of training. Some are much easier, you know, the you get Chat G B T out to the masses and people just start using it, but there i isn't a whole lot of consideration about okay, do you actually understand the foundation and and
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: the the argument I get into you know, mo more often than not is like, I know how to click the buttons. I know how to go to settings. I know how to configure, but they don't have the sort of subject matter behind it that actually makes that valuable, that turns it
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: into where you can make decisions. so I I spent a good number of years at a little tiny shoe company. most people don't know it's Nike. Ver really small place. but I used to be in global supply chain and I used to work for the the head of global supply chain and he was notorious for his ability to understand the numbers. And I used to build him the team that I was on, we used to build him this 200 to 300 slide deck that he would have printed out and bound every month. And he would go through and Damn near memorize this thing. But my point in all this was I got to see what the sort of peak of understanding what data is. He he wasn't like, you know, the hyper technical. He was decent, like he couldn't hold
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: his own. but the thing that really just blew people away, he would get in a a supply chain review, a meeting. And he could quote numbers and and understand the relationships between these by by understanding all these sort of elements of what got him there to that that outcome.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: And and I think this is I I also don't think it's necessary to go overboard, but there
Jordan Morrow: No.
Joshua Burkhow: is this sort of realization that when you see how it is done well, you start to have another level of appreciation for it. Do you think that's a problem? Is that people don't really see the tangibleness of what data literacy means to to organizations?
Jordan Morrow: Yeah, well and and I think it boils down to in one degree, we're too distracted. One
Joshua Burkhow: There it
Jordan Morrow: hundred percent we are too distracted. I mean, if we were to take a survey of everyone who listens to this episode over the months and years and say how many of you do not have a busy job in life, I would argue no one would tell us that they don't have a busy job or life.
Joshua Burkhow: Big zero. Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: But does busyness equate to effectiveness? And I think that that is something that is missing. That person that was in charge of supply chain had probably studied for years. Didn't happen overnight. He had grown to learn these things. And we as humans get so distracted with the magician showing you what's in this hand, the fundamental things that we should be doing. Aren't happening. Like buying a tool is the magician showing you this when in reality are you getting your data right, the skills right, all that. Like, and part of it is, in in fairness, there are very good data literacy detectives on this planet, and you who it is? It's children. Children are natural. I've got five kids, you've got kids, they are naturally figuring every freaking thing out. They ask a
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: million questions. We become adults, and what happens? We get caught in the rat race. Go do your job, build your dashboard. Supply this, do that. When was the last time? Right before our call, I meditated. Right this morning, I
Joshua Burkhow: Right.
Jordan Morrow: read. This morning, I journaled. Before the day got ahead of me, it was personal deep focus for me to be able to succeed. When was the last time someone put like closed their laptop, put their phone away for an hour, and just wrote notes on ideas around problems? They don't do that. But do you know how much value would come from that? And then the other
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. That's right.
Jordan Morrow: side of being busy is I think we sell ourselves short on. Data literacy. Here's my smartphone. Next week I'm traveling over to England to speak at an event. I
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm.
Jordan Morrow: will check the weather app to know what to pack weather-wise. That's data literacy. 100%. And that supply chain leader you had, you remember my formula, engineered intelligence, two-part tech. You were
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm.
Jordan Morrow: providing the data and the tech to him. His IQ and his EQ would kick in because he could connect things together. When 90 to 99% of us do not go to school. For this, you mentioned you could teach someone where to point and click in a dashboard. Does that teach them
Joshua Burkhow: Easy.
Jordan Morrow: how to connect it to strategy, business problems, and value? That has been going on for years with data. It is now going on with AI until companies really assert this ability to study and learn foundationally. First principles, read and by the way, AI is amazing because it can help us build everything from the ground up. It's amazing, it doesn't take much time. But we're just bolting it on, doing the same old, if we're getting more efficient at doing stupid crap, we're just doing stupid crap more efficiently. So I
Joshua Burkhow: Yep. Yep. I
Jordan Morrow: encourage everybody, shut things down for an hour a day. You might not think you have the time, but I would argue you can't afford to not do it.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. It's it's so true. When you when you get into organizations and you you talk to to leaders, is it a skill issue on top of that? it is it you know a confidence thing? Like what is the precursor to the distraction? it
Jordan Morrow: I agree. i you busyness helps people feel like they're effective.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: You and I both know that's not the case. It is a confidence issue, right? It is a skill issue. We fear what we don't know. there's intimidation because maybe they think they need to be AI engineers, and that's the whole world of data literacy. came about because not everyone needs to be a data scientist. You just need to have confidence in using data to make better decisions. So there's fear, intimidation, mindset, confidence. What's so funny about everything we're describing? Yes, we know you need good technical data for AI to thrive. Majority of your success is based on the humans and actually being confident enough to use it and deliver value. That does not come because the data's right. That becomes you got the foundation right in the person. Then they can seek to go do better with it. And they will know the data's not right when it hallucinates too much or when it does this or when it does that. It's the human through and through. So I'm happy people are talking about it, but they they need to go the next step forward. They're not talking about or doing. There's talk and there's action. Do more. Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: I watched this video from Andre Karpathi just recently, who if you haven't been watching him, he's phenomenal. He's got such a down to earth way to to explain it. He's he's absolute genius. But he was sharing his own experience and getting into AI, specifically around the sort of anxiety that he he has now. And I I'm sort of juxtaposing the the human elements that we all show up to work with and all have, along with someone who, you know, like Andre, no he's been doing his PhD, he's been doing this AI deep research for 20 years. He knows his stuff. And yet even himself has has shown that He has anxiety all the time. He's, you know, he he got one thread going and he's like, Okay, am I productive? Can I do more? Can I and it's this sort of, you know, it's the distraction, it's that sort of anxiety, it's that the confidence. All of these things are tangible. Like they're they're part of this whole
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. You feel?
Joshua Burkhow: this whole landscape.
Jordan Morrow: I love what you're getting at. And this goes back to shutting things off. There's a great book out there by Joan Hari called Stolen Focus. And so many people are worried about our minds going to mush from AI. The reality is it started with social media. They hijacked our brains and our dopamine. Our attention spans are shorter. So there's this, you know, what you were just describing from him, this anxiety-induced feeling. Could I be doing more? What should I be doing here? What should I be doing there? First principles thinking. First principles thinking for humans is what makes us human: being in nature, connecting with others, doing things of that sort, learning, studying, That makes us human can get rid of the anxiety-induced feelings. Like, imagine just going out on a Saturday night, you're not talking AI, you're not doing social media, you're not doing any of that, you're with a few people, maybe having a couple pints, getting some food, and you're just shooting the breeze. No one's on their phone. Do you feel any Anxiety from that? No, you probably feel fulfilled. And it's because you got back to a first principle around humans with evolution. I have Darwin's origin of species behind me, right? It's what makes us human. And it's so funny because people are like, well, AI this, AI that, and I get it. But what makes us human makes us better with AI. And Sometimes, and I've told my employees this, they know this. If I hear them on a Friday say, man, what a busy week, I tell them, shut down early and go enjoy your weekend. Some people would sit in there and say, really? But that's wasted hours. It's actually not. Because if I burn my employees through the ground, they're done in the future. So
Joshua Burkhow: Yep.
Jordan Morrow: it it there is a balance and I think we lose sight. I always need to be doing something. That's not confidence, that's busyness coming back to that. And the greatest minds on the planet. We talked about Jeffrey Hinton, right? Nobel Prize winning godfather of AI is drastically worried about it. That should tell you something. Mustafa Suleiman, founder of
Joshua Burkhow: So
Jordan Morrow: Deep Mind, Microsoft AI CEO, deeply worried about it. Last week you just had companies coming out like Anthropics saying Yeah, the biohacking that AI is allowing isn't good. No kidding. Right? So instead
Joshua Burkhow: Hm. Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: of just marching forward, th this is why in my formula, Of the four characteristics in my formula, data plus AI plus IQ, the fourth is the most important. That is EQ, and that is emotional intelligence. What is your self-awareness and what is your awareness of your employees? Sometimes just tell them to take a day off because you can hear the stress in their voice. go off and do something. Go grab lunch if you're in person. Have an hour-long Zoom video game of Some kind because the human side is being forgotten, even though people are talking about it. This is why I emphasize they need to be doing more.
Joshua Burkhow: I wanna get into this next piece and then I might I might come back to to this and
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: because I'd like to chew on a little bit, but mo most conversations about AI and and skills focus on the more direct thing that AI will replace. However, nothing gets me more bent out of shape when I hear s especially senior execs, but you know, directors even saying, yeah, we're replacing our entire software stack or most of our software stack with with AI and I'm just like don't do that. Like that that that's not they
Jordan Morrow: Don't do it. Companies have had to backtrack.
Joshua Burkhow: they like predictable now. I've I've
Jordan Morrow: Yes.
Joshua Burkhow: seen it happen so often now where they're sort of throw caution to the wind. I I sort of tell them like, you do realize you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. This is that that problem is that you're you're getting too fast. And Now that I got you here, I'm starting to think, is this do you consider that sort of challenge a a lack of of literacy and understanding of of AI and all all this? Is that help me understand better then?
Jordan Morrow: Yes. Hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. Jensen Wong, Nvidia, last week ripped companies who were letting people go for the reason of AI.
Joshua Burkhow: Yep.
Jordan Morrow: Sam Altman came out and was like, yeah, I'm not sure the job apocalypse is gonna happen. It's 1000% senior executives literacy that needs to upgrade if they think I'm just gonna get rid of people and replace it with AI. Now, there's no doubt that when industrial revolutions occur, jobs get lost, but jobs get created, right?
Joshua Burkhow: Right. Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: We're watching now token economics versus human economics, and what are we noticing? Tokenization's more expensive than humans. We're not at a commodity point yet where it's the race to the bottom of price. It's gonna get there. But instead of thinking, who do I let go, I would look at work itself. Like my my current day job boss is Brian Clark, president of Agile One. He calls it where can we replace soul-sucking work with AI? And then release people's creativity to do more. It is fundamentally improper of leadership to say we're gonna let go of 10% of staff to invest in AI. Well, first off, maybe before letting anybody go, double check your data's even ready for it. Just throw that out there.
Joshua Burkhow: Most of the time it's not right. You know this.
Jordan Morrow: Most of the time it's not. And this is across any company. I don't care.
Joshua Burkhow: Mm-hmm.
Jordan Morrow: It is fundamentally flawed to think we're just gonna replace like we're on the internet right now, different parts of the world recording a podcast. When the internet came along It burst at one point, but did the power of it leave? No. Did jobs get shifted? Yes. We don't have lamp lighters anymore. We have electrical lamps. We're not necessarily have a ton of horse and buggies. We have cars. things evolve. So instead of companies saying, we're gonna let people go because we're doing AI, I would like to hear them say, we are investing more in humans because we have AI. That's
Joshua Burkhow: Right.
Jordan Morrow: the answer to it. If you do that right,
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: my goodness, can you thrive? Absolutely
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: thrive.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. I I think the the piece that I just throw my my personal opinion in that is we've had companies doing layoffs and and letting people go for hundred years in business. but I think the the ease of the chaos of what AI is providing is really concerning. And I I think
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: I I like an R CEO who you know, he he sort of had such a beautiful way of putting it. He's like, hey, I expect the the humans in this company will become more productive. And if they become more productive, then we don't have to necessarily grow in in human capacity, which is what happens a lot of times. They they overhire hire more people than the company can sustain in the future. And then of course you gotta let let go. but it's this sort of mindset that I I I keep coming back to is like having people really understand the fundamentals of technology, how technology cycles of it all. We we talk about the the hype cycle ad nauseum.
Jordan Morrow: Yep.
Joshua Burkhow: and and it's pretty damn predictive. Like it's pr pretty close to w play out. And
Jordan Morrow: Every we're seeing it happen with AI right now.
Joshua Burkhow: it's I I also had to get this one in. I have I have this new new theory that I watch for when I talk to people and I and I go into organizations. And you know the cliche is an aha moment. Like you gotta have an aha moment. I I call it the O S H I T moment. but I think you have to have two of them. You have the first one where you realize that AI is way more powerful than you had conceptualized, right? And and a lot of people have just have a very visceral sort of feeling, like, yeah, I have that moment when I opened up co-work or a Claude Code and built an app in like a minute or five minutes, and the
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: they're like, holy crap. Then there I'm finding that there's a cadre of us who have gotten to this sort of second. shoot moment where it is the moment when you realize that AI can't do everything. That AI
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: can't do all the things that you will see on
Jordan Morrow: It's not a magic bullet.
Joshua Burkhow: Instagram and and Facebook and LinkedIn.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: And and so this sort of sanity comes back to the human and the human's like, I should probably figure out how to use this most effectively if
Jordan Morrow: Yep.
Joshua Burkhow: it's not, you know, gonna take over absolutely everything. so let's get into the weeds a little bit if you want. where where do you think I'm Johnny Newby. I'm new to an organization, they're run rolling out AI. Where where's the biggest bang for the buck? Where would you say, hey Johnny, you you need to to focus on this area first? if I want to be a sort of literacy guru or at least get on that path of consistent action, where where do I start? Where do I where would you go?
Jordan Morrow: so for years I've had my three C's of data literacy and I think they're more important now than ever and I'm gonna focus on one. The three C's are curiosity, creativity, critical thinking. We're gonna focus on curiosity. Cause children, I call them the best data literacy detectives on the planet. It's they're always asking questions. If I do this, this happens. If I do that, that happens. What causes this? What causes that? If you want to master AI literacy, ask questions and ask them very, very well. Because everything you just described can boil down to a question. What is a transformer model? Huh? How does a frontier model work? Huh? Why is an LLM different than just standard machine learning if we're just building predictive analytics? But fostering your curiosity masters it. Because then you can get into critic creativity. And the third C is critical thinking. AI is probabilistic. It's very good with data. You know what is worse with data than AI? Humans. And it's not even close. AI is better than we are, but we get to blame a machine if we're blaming the the AI, right? But ask questions through and through. And you might be like, well, I don't know what question to start with. Ask AI that. Say, I want to get really good at asking questions, so I'm better with. You at AI, what questions should I be asking you? And just watch what it does. It'll teach you. But if you want to be excellent at anything data in AI, start really honing in your question asking. And then it goes one step further, and that is: how do you apply the learning you get? You do those two things, you'll learn everything you just described. You can just take off, but it boils down to that fundamental thing of just asking why. That's it.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: the one thing I will say going back, a couple questions to the literacy of leaders. Not only do you have to allow people in your company the ability to ask questions, you have to create safety for them that they don't feel like if they ask a question, they're gonna get in trouble for it. You have to
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: create an environment where that just thrives. Because if a person feels like I ask a question, it doesn't go the way I want, I'll be punished. Your culture is wrong. It is a horrible cult. You're done. You've you've lost the business world. So that's
Joshua Burkhow: You're done. You shut down. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Jordan Morrow: where I would piggyback allow questions everywhere, even if you don't think it's a good question. Allow it everywhere and allow people to thrive with it.
Joshua Burkhow: I I think this is just a huge insight for for people is that the onslaught of AI has created an environment where not only is everybody level set, you know, there's there's very few original, you know, 20-year experts, t even ten-year experts in AI. So the ground has been leveled. And now if you have an organization that you can't ask questions to learn when that is the most demanded thing, then don't expect your your company to make a whole lot of progress
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: and and move forward. Right? It's it's almost ludicrous to to consider it.
Jordan Morrow: 100%. It's yeah. The fact that I love what you just said, majority of people, even those who call themselves AI experts, don't have decades of experience. They just don't. And so
Joshua Burkhow: It just don't.
Jordan Morrow: businesses, if you're sitting here saying to yourself, well, I don't need to do this, or we're just gonna keep our culture the same, not with AI, you're not, because what's really interesting to watch with companies right now. I, if if I'm a company, a long-standing company, I don't worry about my competitors. You know what I worry about? Startups. Because startups that get this right from the ground up, who are AI native from the ground up, not bolting on features, they're the ones to worry about because their culture is everything you're gonna thrive. And they're just gonna blow past you because of the capability AI brings. That's why companies, back to first principles, should be scraping everything down to the bottom. And saying, do we even need to do this anymore? If not, what do we put in its place and allow creativity to thrive with AI?
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. Love it. I love it. I I always worry that I would go down random rabbit holes, but like all it it's I'm getting this overall sense like all this stuff is connected. That the
Jordan Morrow: Hundred percent.
Joshua Burkhow: the the the culture of a company is tied to success with AI, it's tied to literacy, tied to the the idea of of getting to first principles and you know, th seeing things much more clearly, the human aspect.
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. I do worry, I write about this in my fifth book. I worry that we don't do mental workouts anymore. We don't like journaling is a mental workout, reading is a mental workout. I like poetry. I write it and I read it. Right? Just had another book right. it's right next to me. Arrive in the mail yesterday, a poetry book. So that my brain gets a workout. If you're not doing that and you just turn it like again, I don't think AI started this, it's just making it worse. Social media, I think, started this. We do and And everybody does it. I doom scroll. Everybody does from time to time. But if we are not counteracting that by writing, reading, if we're not working out, we're in big trouble. And this is actually, I'm gonna bring in the whole world of data storytelling and AI storytelling right here. Our brains are designed for it. And my favorite business book on the planet is Creativity Inc., which is the story of Pixar Animation Studios. Want to talk about a business that has kept the culture, the creativity, the human aspect all over. You need to be working out your mental muscles just like if you going back to consistency. If you work out for three weeks and miss six months straight, you're not having the dream body. If you think you
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: can work your brain out for three weeks and then do nothing for six months, it's not gonna happen. You've gotta be consistent, you've got to do stuff.
Joshua Burkhow: I I think this is the part that probably irks me the most is that w we f forget that why we're doing technology in the first place, why we're doing AI in
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: the first place. And it's to make our lives better,
Jordan Morrow: it tools have become this essential thing, but they aren't the thing. And so for me, again, th this the I spoke in Peru and B Brazil in March. Being human in the age of AI. I am in England next week, the closing keynote of the event. being human in the age of AI. And by the way, when 90 to 99% of people are not AI professionals and have fear, fatigue, and overwhelm, when you start talking to them that you matter and that the human matters, they start to get excited. So any leader who listens to this podcast, talk more about the human versus the tech, you're gonna get your culture and your people more on board than if you had bought a tool and said this is our solution.
Joshua Burkhow: I I think that's the the piece that gives me the most hope and the most sort of underlying inspiration is that I think there is a wave of us who see that light. They see
Jordan Morrow: Yes.
Joshua Burkhow: that the idea that AI is not something in and of itself, it's not AI, it's human NAI, it they're listening. You know, they're they're they're opening their ears. They're like, okay, well maybe there's something to be said about this that is tangible, that has some impact to two things.
Jordan Morrow: And that is the the one the like when we think about the internet, at one point it was probably humans versus the internet. Now it is synonymous with your life. I was a
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: holdout on a smartphone. I eventually got one. Now you can't imagine your life without it, for good or bad.
Joshua Burkhow: That's right. Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: Where I think this is where literacy really picks up with AI, though, is people understood probably the internet better than they understand AI. People understood smartphones better than they understand AI. This is why I'm not telling people that they have to become as nerdy as you and me. Just go study. What does a large language model do? Well, it's dissecting all of us, right? It's a
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. That's right.
Jordan Morrow: mirror of who we okay, so I can get a little bit of understanding. Okay, how do I apply that? So just like the internet is synonymous with our lives, smartphones, cars. everything, AI should become synonymous with your life where it is appropriate to fit in. Don't make it the end all be all. Help you achieve your end all be all because it's a tool you can use. So that's what I would tell people is it's just going to be a part of us. Make it be a part of you in an effective way so you're
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah.
Jordan Morrow: not superseded by it.
Joshua Burkhow: Love it. All right. So Jordan, we're getting up here at time and I usually end these podcasts with a lightning round because I like to
Jordan Morrow: Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: sort of get into the head and and off the cuff of of what people are thinking. So I'm gonna Pummel you with a just a handful of questions if you're up for it.
Jordan Morrow: Let's do it. Absolutely.
Joshua Burkhow: All right. most overrated data or AI skill right now. Most overrated.
Jordan Morrow: my gosh. Most overrated proficiency in a tool. Because
Joshua Burkhow: Ooh. All right.
Jordan Morrow: proficiency in a tool does not mean you're bringing value from the tool. I can point and click in a dashboard, doesn't mean I know what to do with it.
Joshua Burkhow: All right, most underrated.
Jordan Morrow: Curiosity, asking good questions.
Joshua Burkhow: Got it. Well done. one thing every organization should stop doing immediately.
Jordan Morrow: Buying tools as a strategy.
Joshua Burkhow: Like it's just like
Jordan Morrow: Ha ha ha ha.
Joshua Burkhow: the I I just wish I I I'm gonna record this, put it on on my phone,
Jordan Morrow: That should be it, our short.
Joshua Burkhow: and anytime somebody says, Hey, I bought a new tool be like listen to Jordan. Like here here's how it works. skill gap
Jordan Morrow: Yep.
Joshua Burkhow: or confidence gap, which one is bigger, more important?
Jordan Morrow: I think more important is confidence. The bigger gap is skills. Confidence allows you to close the skills gap, but I do think the discrepancy between them is bigger, but a lot of people do lack too much confidence.
Joshua Burkhow: Got it. One human capability that becomes non negotiable within I I I initially put the next five years, but feel free to put next year, three, five, whatever. One human capability that becomes non negotiable.
Jordan Morrow: I keep saying curiosity. That will not go away, but I'm gonna bring another one in, and that is critical thinking. And we talked about
Joshua Burkhow: Critical thinking.
Jordan Morrow: in the episode. We can't turn everything over to AI or our brain is gonna become a puddle of mush. We have to critically think on not just AI, but on what people are saying, what social media and the algorithm give us. Question, that's curiosity, but question everything. Critically think on it.
Joshua Burkhow: That's right. All right. Last one, if you could give every data professional, aka AI professional, one book beside your own, what would it be?
Jordan Morrow: We are as gods.
Joshua Burkhow: We are as gods.
Jordan Morrow: So Peter Diamandis and Stephen Cotler, if you listen to this, and I'll probably
Joshua Burkhow: yeah.
Jordan Morrow: tag you, just send me a gift card or a signed copy. the reason
Joshua Burkhow: Mm.
Jordan Morrow: is, is I think it does a very good job of talking about first principles thinking and number two, helping us get into a flow state, i.e., that state where the human's creativity can thrive with AI. But that would be number one. Can I say number two? One B would be
Joshua Burkhow: Let's do it. Let's go.
Jordan Morrow: Karen Howells, it's right there, Empire of
Joshua Burkhow: Okay.
Jordan Morrow: AI. Which is the story of
Joshua Burkhow: yeah, I got that one. That's a great one. Yeah, yeah. I this is actually the one that I'll interject here is anything on the history of AI is gonna be great because
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: you realize that this what didn't get invented when ChatGPT, you know, came out. Right? So
Jordan Morrow: No, nineteen fifty-six. I ask that when I speak. Nineteen fifty six is when the term was coined at Dartmouth University, nineteen fifty-six.
Joshua Burkhow: That's right. Yeah. I mean think about that. Like people have no clue that like this technology came yesterday. It's I I liken
Jordan Morrow: Yeah. No.
Joshua Burkhow: it to the data warehousing industry, which I sort of started into. That was, you know, twenty twenty years in the making before I even got started into it and it's been around and now look, you got the data bricks and the snowflakes of the world that are you know, have lake houses.
Jordan Morrow: Right. Yeah.
Joshua Burkhow: All that stuff was not built yesterday, you know. That's right.
Jordan Morrow: Well, it's like data literacy, the field I help invent. The principles are reading, working with, analyzing, communicating with data. That's been around millennia. That cat eats me, that cat doesn't. That berry kills me, that one doesn't. You're just reading data and then communicating with people. We
Joshua Burkhow: That's right.
Jordan Morrow: just put it into a bucket that helped people thrive with it. And that that so a lot of these principles are similar. It's like the hype cycle, it just keeps coming. Just keeps coming.
Joshua Burkhow: It's there. All right, buddy, we're we're at the end. Any any last thoughts, any anything that sort of been chugging in your mind through our conversation that you'd like to throw in?
Jordan Morrow: man, I you and I could keep chatting forever. What I would tell people who listen to this, because I have a big audience that aren't gonna be the professional side, is always remember everyone has a seat at the table. That's it. Like everybody. but just cause you sit at a table with a buffet in front of you, you still have to do the work to eat. It doesn't jump into your mouth. Same thing here. You have a seat at the table, just take some time. Fifteen, thirty minutes a day, study, do your work.
Joshua Burkhow: Yeah. Love it so much. Jordan, thank you so much. I appreciate ya. It's a great great conversation with you and hope I get to run into you s soon enough.
Jordan Morrow: Absolutely. And a as as my long lost brother, as we look alike, right arm tatted, beard, bald. It's good to be with you.
Joshua Burkhow: my gosh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just need to I need to I need to write four more books just to catch up. That's it. Thanks. That's that's no anxiety or pressure right there. Good. Take care, bud.
Jordan Morrow: Yes. Yes. You too.
Joshua Outro: That's it for this episode of Alter Everything. Much appreciate you, Jordan, for coming on the show. If there's one thing to carry out of this, it's this: the future won't belong to those who know the most tools. It's gonna belong to the people who can turn data literacy, AI literacy, communication, and judgment into better decisions. Now, if you want to go deeper, pick up Jordan's latest book, Data and AI Skills. To learn more about what we covered, just simply go over to altrix.com forward slash podcast to check out the show notes. if you got something out of this episode today, please leave us a review. Share it with anyone who you think needs to hear it. You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and anywhere else podcasts are played. Until then, see you the next time.
