WEBVTT
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So courageous leadership right now is just what good leadership has always been, but now like the outside world makes it seem like it's not.
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So for board members, it's really sustain the course.
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Stick to the mission.
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If your mission has been about access, diversity, belonging, you need to do that work, right?
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Just because people are now saying that it's not popular but that's what your mission is like.
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That's literally your job, right?
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Welcome to another episode of AAUP, presents Academic Freedom on the Line, a special series jointly produced by AAUP presents and the AAUP Center for the Defense of Academic Freedom.
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I'm Center fellow Vineeta Singh.
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If you've been following this special series, you'll have noticed that we keep coming up against questions of power and leadership.
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Who has the power to stop this?
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Who is supposed to have that power?
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Where are the leaders who will defend higher education from the extreme rights campaigns to discredit and defund our institutions?
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I think our most powerful response to this question so far came in the episode where we spoke with student organizers over the past few years, it's safe to say that students have provided us with the best models of what principled leadership can look like, but they can't do this alone and they shouldn't have to.
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So in this episode, I'm joined by two experts who work on governance boards, whether they're called the Board of Visitors, the Board of Regents, the board of Trustees.
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These are the who are tasked with leadership of our institutions.
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Our guests today study these boards, how they exercise their power and how.
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Academic workers and other community members can leverage the power of these boards to help institutions align with their stated missions.
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Dr.
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Raquel Rall is an associate professor in the school of Education at UC, Riverside, and her research center's post-secondary leadership and governance, And Dr.
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Demetri Morgan, who has been at the Center for the Study of Higher and post-Secondary education at the University of Michigan since fall 2024.
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His research and teaching focused on the role of higher education in a diverse democracy.
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He's also a fellow at the Center for the Defense of Academic Freedom.
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Okay, so I wanna start with a really basic question.
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Just to have sort of a shared base of understanding, could you explain, like you're speaking to a curious undergraduate, what even is a board of visitors slash region slash trustees slash whatever weird thing it's called in the institution that you happen to be in.
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Uh, why does it exist and what is it supposed to do?
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Yeah, sure.
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I can start with that.
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So I think it's important.
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I mean, even in your question, it's, there's so many different names, but they all are supposed to sort of do the same thing.
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And then some institutions have different levels, and so it might be an institution board of trustees or regents or whatever.
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And then there's a system level or state level.
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So there's levels to that.
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But in general, there's this idea that, a group of, individuals that were not necessarily affiliated with the institution would be able to help kind of govern with the best interest of society in mind, and that they wouldn't be, uh, tempted by political intrusion and all these different things because they didn't really have skin in the game necessarily for the institution.
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Right.
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And so they would be able to ensure autonomy, right?
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Or independence, however you wanna think about it, and, and govern on behalf.
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Of the public.
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And that was a really big thing.
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It's sort of like how a lot of companies now use a board of advisors, right?
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That they would help to offer guidance and they would see things at a different level, They bring this other expertise, whether they're coming from the political sphere, Or some of them are, have this great business acumen or investment acumen that you might not get if you had folks who were only in higher education, right?
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And so this is this group of, uh, of soloists as Dick talks about them, like come together to kind of be part of this choir for the institution.
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Like they're, they're masters in their own field, and that.
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they would come together to make sure that the institution is following its mission, right?
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Thinking about how best to, to serve students and best serve the community, its programs and all of these different things.
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And when you think about a board of trustees, of regions, uh, of visitors, rector, you know, all these different things that we have.
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We think about a lot of roles and responsibilities.
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So they really have like nine key roles and responsibilities that many people have agreed upon, right?
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Obviously people think about fiduciary duties, they think about the budget, right?
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Keep us in the black, make sure we don't go bankrupt.
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So that's, that's one, right?
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We often think about the most important is their selection of the, the institution president or chancellor, whatever they're called.
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So that's a big role that these boards have.
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And also monitoring them along the way, right?
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Strategic planning is a big piece of, of what boards do.
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if this is our mission, boards are the ones who are supposed to make sure that we keep to that mission, right?
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So those are some of like the high level ones that I think most folks would understand.
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It's like, huh, okay.
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They help us pick the president, right?
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Oh, they make sure that we keep money flowing Those are some of the main things that boards do, but it's really is supposed to be sort of this separate entity that, is not comprised solely of faculty or the chancellor or the governor, you know, all these different things and that they're supposed to help make sure that the institution is run the way it's supposed to be run.
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Right.
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And so I think that that's probably the easiest way to describe it.
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They, meet episodically maybe some, only four times a year, some six times a year.
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They're not full-time employees.
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They're probably one of the most, qualified volunteer jobs that you'll ever see.
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Like some of these folks are really like captains of industry and then they become a volunteer'cause they don't get paid to do this.
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Right.
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And so I think that's a really unique feature that we have for, for our boards.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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the only thing that I would add to that really great overview.
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Is just some of the nuance in thinking about public boards versus private boards.
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One of the main distinctions is the size.
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Uh, so if you're listening, um, from a private university, you might not know how many trustees or board members exist at your institution.
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Because at private universities there's also, a philanthropic relationship that board members often play, right?
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So we, when people talk about the donors, not all donors are are board members, but most board members are donors.
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so, uh, that's another way that people sometimes see and understand board members.
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Whereas at public institutions, the, the boards tend to be smaller.
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And they tend to be political appointees.
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that's one of the reasons why we start to see some of the tensions with the kind of ideal that Dr.
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Rall laid out, in public boards, they're appointed by the governor or, um, appointed and confirmed by the legislature.
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And so, um, it does start to inject some politics in it.
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And over the last, 10 years, we've seen increasing politics injected.
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But beforehand it was pretty perfunctory.
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Um.
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And wasn't seen as a hyper political appointment process because boards were understood as, uh, these, these kind of overarching people who were really interested in helping align the university with the best interest of, of the, the broader public.
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Um, and then just a word about the kind of internal infrastructure boards.
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So like most organizations, it's made up of committees and the committees tend to focus, uh, on different areas.
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things like investment, institutional compliance and risk management.
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Uh.
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academic affairs and student affairs.
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Every board, uh, will have kind of a different configuration and I always encourage academic workers, faculty, professionals to look up the structure of their board.
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It might give some insight into the things that the board thinks is important, both historically and, and in contemporary times.
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for example, the University of Michigan board has, specific committee, uh, for healthcare.
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And, and that tracks'cause we have a really big health system.
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Whereas at another university that doesn't have a health system, you might not see that.
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So some of the, um, kind of priorities and interests of the board are also reflected in the committee structure, and that's another good way to kind of get to know a board if you're, um, not as familiar
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Right.
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That makes so much sense.
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I guess my follow up questions would be about composition and turnover.
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So like with turnover, thinking about are there any term limits in place?
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Um, do governors just come in and change the whole board every four years or, you know, at private institution are folks just kind of waiting for existing trustees to, um, die and then get replaced.
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And then, uh, in terms of composition, Dr.
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Rall, I know you mentioned business and politics are maybe two major fields that are often represented on boards.
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And I know you mentioned, uh, student representatives, that sounds, incredibly exciting.
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If you could speak a little bit more about how common that is and what other types of folks might be represented on these boards.
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Yeah, I mean, those are all great questions that I think everyone is still grappling with.
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We don't have perfect answers, but traditionally, as Dr.
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Morgan sort of laid out, most public institutions, their boards are gubernatorial appointed, meaning you know, the governor and sometimes there's like a legislature confirmation, other times there's not There traditionally has been no rhyme or reason how folks get to be appointed on the board, believe it or not.
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Like there are very few qualifications that we've ever seen you know, I had one joke with me sometimes.
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Oh, I went to school kindergarten with Billy, who's the governor now, right?
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And when he became governor, he asked me if I wanna do this thing.
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It's like, huh.
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And obviously that's reducing it, right?
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Like that sort of, but it really is sometimes just who you know, who knows you but sometimes we've seen, like I've seen in my state in California where, you know, a Republican governor appointed someone, and then the Democratic governor reappointed that same person.
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So for me at the UC, right?
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They get 12 year terms, which is one of the longest.
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In the nation to have a 12 year term for something and to get reappointed.
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So you think if someone who's been there for 24 years, the numbers of of presidents, system heads, chancellor, all these things, tuition changes they've been able to oversee and have their hands in, right?
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Is, is astronomical.
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So I think it's really important.
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I think about, and sometimes if you think about community colleges, we haven't really brought them up there's a lot of elections oftentimes, or by districts, right?
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So there are different ways that these things are, are structured.
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So there is even more politics there because folks are vying for votes, right?
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And it's a little bit more open facing so yes.
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About composition.
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Uh, Dr.
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Morgan and I did this article with, uh, Dr.
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Chait just thinking about board alignment, you know, their composition versus the composition of students because, the board is supposed to be representative of community society in which that institution is.
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And so that means different things if you're in, you know, Iowa versus if you're at the HBCU.
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traditionally though, if you're thinking of the, the grand scheme of things, board members have traditionally been older, white, wealthy men.
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And so that's not hyperbole.
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That's what everyone will say.
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They'll say it in different ways.
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But that's the facts.
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And that's traditionally because if you think about how higher education started and who it was for is for, you know, white wealthy men.
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And so often when we're thinking about how do folks get on the board, it's, again, it's who, you know, if you think about the majority of governors in the United States are white men, right?
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We, we seldom ever have a woman, we seldom ever have a person of color and they're doing the appointments right?
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So often this continues with this cycle.
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Young folks are also in the minority on that.
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So most board members are like 60 plus.
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and so you think about how education has changed.
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Those folks are not looking at the same types of institutions in which they went.
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Sometimes composition also, includes alumni.
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Sometimes there are.
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Specific spots for alumni Regents, there's exofficio roles.
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So like in California, like Lieutenant Governor, gets a spot on the board, right?
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Like if you're the, um, a faculty rep, you might get a spot on the board.
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Sometimes, oddly enough, governors have a, a seat on the board, and so it's this really weird thing that they're supposed to be able to make decisions apart from them, but they're actually on the board.
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as well.
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Still have the chancellor, the president of the institution on a board, have a seat on a board and So there's so much nuance.
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Uh, to that point, most boards don't have students, I think the last number I, I saw when I looked was about 70% or so our boards have maybe a student representative with or without a vote.
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And so that's typically either one student or two students.
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When you think about the other layperson trustees, there's a lot more so the, the students are always in the minority, right?
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And their terms are obviously.
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More truncated because we want students to graduate.
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Like that's what we want.
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We don't want them to be there forever.
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We very seldom have folks who have higher education expertise on the board, which again is very strange thinking about, we want people to be able to govern higher education in the institution, right?
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And so we wouldn't want people, like if we thought about Nike, we wouldn't have folks who dunno about money, who maybe didn't know about shoe.
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You know, on the board.
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Um, but that's typically what we do have in higher education.
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People who understand finance, who understand business, who understand networking, but they don't necessarily understand the really unique nature of higher education, which is like nothing else, right?
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And so, um, when you talk about term limits, most boards do have term limits in certain ways.
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This is more so on the public, side, right?
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And so it's like a four year or six year term.
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And then you can renew that term sometimes that you could be on the board again.
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Sometimes they have it where you can't, or you have this.
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Have a stint where you're off and then you can come back.
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Right.
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But there are also some boards, especially at the private side that don't have term limits.
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So you could just be on there forever.
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Or you have boards where they have a hundred people on the board.
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It's like, how could you ever make a decision with a hundred people?
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Right?
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So we do have some sense of like a smaller board is better, around 20 people, less than 30 is better.
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than having a hundred people, right?
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When you have a more diverse board, and that's not just, about phenotype, right?
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It's not just by race, but it's also by gender.
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It's also by, socioeconomic status by geography, where people are, age is a big thing, profession.
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So there needs to be some diversity in that because all those folks are sort of bringing in that expertise into conversations which matter, right?
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What we often talk about when we do our research for governing boards is that you need to speak to your specific institution and where you are and what works and what is representative of that place.
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And I think that that's a really important thing because people often say, well, what's the best way?
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And it's like, there's no one best way because everything is different in all these different places or so many different institution types, whether you're in a system or you're not in a system, whether you're, at a Jesuit institution or a women institution or, you know, like you have all these different histories and things and so you have to really speak to your specific place and your nuance and your moment.
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So yeah,
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Okay.
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So can you maybe help us figure out what.
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An advisory role means in this context.
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I mean, how much power do boards have?
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Should we be thinking about them as pretty powerful or are we thinking of them as more of a rubber stamp?
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What.
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Is, uh, the sort of most useful and most accurate way to think about the kind of, uh, leadership that might be happening through boards of governance?
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Yeah, it's, it is an important question and I'm, I'm glad you asked.
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'cause I, I think this is one of the places where how Dr.
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Rall and I come at this work starts to diverge, um, with a lot of our colleagues and other people's perspective.
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So w e, think of boards as very powerful, entities.
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They have a lot of latent power that is not always used and activated, but it is still there for their, their use.
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Um, and that comes back to that fiduciary role that, Dr.
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Rall was talking about earlier, which is ultimately the Board is responsible for the sustainability and longevity of the institution When the institution gets sued.
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The board members get sued, right?
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If you think of some of the most ho high profile cases like Jerry Sandusky at Penn State, it was individual trustees and the chancellor who were named in that, terrible situation, that terrible lawsuit.
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Um, even though there were lots of people involved, the athletics program, the people who were actually implicated at the end of the day were, the trustees of Penn State.
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So when we talk about it from a legal standpoint, a financial standpoint of like who is on the line at the institution, who's responsible for signing contracts, who's responsible for granting tenure?
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It is the trustees or the regents.
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They delegate that power to other entities, to work on behalf of them.
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But just like with any delegated power, if and when they want to assert that from their vantage point, they, they can.
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So tenure is a good example.
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So sure you can, um, rubber stamp the, the recommendation of the dean, the provost, the the president, and just kind of see it as a perfunctory step.
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But tenure is conferred by the institution and, and therefore it is conferred by the board.
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And so we take a very, expansive understanding of the power of the board.
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Um, it's one of the reasons, especially in, the rolling back of diversity, equity, inclusion, why a lot of our scholarship was like, Hey, if we don't get the boards on board, so to speak, with understanding and really appreciating diversity, equity, inclusion, and its complexity, all of this could easily be rolled back.
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And it was one of those things where it's like we were, unfortunately, right?
00:17:23.548 --> 00:17:28.907
And, and it's one of those things that we wish we kept being wrong, but, but some of our work, we couldn't get published.
00:17:28.907 --> 00:17:31.218
Like people just like the board doesn't matter to this.
00:17:31.218 --> 00:17:36.077
It's the faculty, it's the administrators who are responsible for advancing DEI, the board is removed.
00:17:36.528 --> 00:17:38.117
We were like, no, like.
00:17:38.627 --> 00:17:41.208
They, they can be really consequential.
00:17:41.538 --> 00:17:54.627
Um, and we want them to understand and really appreciate this work the nuances and the realities of diversity, equity, inclusion work for faculty, for an administrators, And our argument has always been how much benefit could they be if they did understand it?
00:17:54.867 --> 00:17:59.637
But now we're seeing the, the counter argument is how much damage they can do when they, when they don't.
00:17:59.637 --> 00:18:03.137
So I think that undergirds, why we take a really, um.
00:18:03.647 --> 00:18:04.218
Expansive.
00:18:04.218 --> 00:18:10.067
We, we always try to couch that though with the, the board needs to be in partnership with other stakeholders throughout the community.
00:18:10.397 --> 00:18:14.657
Um, you know, we don't want board members involved in the weeds of the institution.
00:18:14.657 --> 00:18:21.758
We don't want the board, asserting itself in ways, um, that are harmful to faculty, staff, and students.
00:18:22.117 --> 00:18:22.238
Staff.
00:18:22.268 --> 00:18:30.488
We want a healthy consensual partnership where the board provides its strengths to the institution and all the other constituents and stakeholders provide its strengths.
00:18:30.488 --> 00:18:38.077
in this really synergistic way when everybody understands their role, has appreciation for what other people are doing across the university.
00:18:38.077 --> 00:18:41.438
People have appreciation for what the board can do and it's healthy.
00:18:41.768 --> 00:18:44.347
Uh, but we always say, we always get asked like, who's doing that well?
00:18:44.347 --> 00:18:45.728
And we're like, nobody obviously.
00:18:45.728 --> 00:18:50.627
Like, if there were boards who were doing this well, it would be much more evident, but.
00:18:51.290 --> 00:19:02.750
That balance is really hard to, to strike where boards are playing their fiduciary role, understand their responsibility, delegated well, but are not so aloof that they aren't disengaged.
00:19:02.750 --> 00:19:15.634
And then when they wanna get engaged, and again, DEI is such a a, an unfortunate example where they were aloof, they were disengaged, and then they got activated and they got activated on terms that have been really harmful to a lot of institutions and a, and a lot of constituents.
00:19:15.638 --> 00:19:26.064
And, you actually want the board to understand and be involved and understand their unique role What is the appropriate and consensual role for the board to play with other partners that are involved.
00:19:26.604 --> 00:19:32.574
Knowing that they do have a lot of latent power and they can exert it whenever they want to exert it as a collective.
00:19:32.874 --> 00:19:51.384
And so instead of just shunning them and thinking that they're just, you know, donors or people who are aloof, who only show up on campus six, six a year actually appreciating the, the roles that they have and the work that they can do, and bringing them in closer as partners, helping educate them, helping them see the value of the different work or the different concepts that we hold dearly.
00:19:51.713 --> 00:20:06.384
And making sure that they can also be defenders and advocates and proponents of some of the things that we think make higher education unique instead of having hostility towards it'cause they don't understand it or they don't see it's value add or the case hasn't been made with them involved.
00:20:06.384 --> 00:20:07.493
It's just been made to them.
00:20:07.804 --> 00:20:12.943
and we're seeing the fruits of, the wrong strategy with board members over their, over the last decade.
00:20:13.943 --> 00:20:21.624
Yeah, I, I mean, Without boards, no improvements or changes that are great, can be maximized or will be sustained.
00:20:21.713 --> 00:20:22.013
Right.
00:20:22.013 --> 00:20:26.884
It's sort of like they are part of this team and like, so for so long, They took a more passive role.
00:20:26.884 --> 00:20:40.233
But I think in recent years, last decade when we saw not only the Sandusky scandal, but the admission scandal, you know, uh, varsity blues and all these different places when boards were then sprung into the limelight and we're like, well, what, what are these boards doing?
00:20:40.233 --> 00:20:42.723
And Nicole Hannah Jones, tenure, tenure denial.
00:20:42.723 --> 00:20:42.903
Right?
00:20:42.903 --> 00:20:44.344
All these different things we saw like.
00:20:44.778 --> 00:20:45.138
Huh?
00:20:45.169 --> 00:20:53.209
They, they do have a role to play And you can think of them, I think as, as you can think of any role, like, um, do parents really matter?
00:20:53.209 --> 00:20:53.898
Teachers really matter.
00:20:53.898 --> 00:20:56.898
The really great ones do and the really bad ones do as well, right?
00:20:56.898 --> 00:20:59.269
you can sort of coast and it'll be fine.
00:20:59.269 --> 00:21:02.088
If nothing bad happens to your institution, great board, right?
00:21:02.088 --> 00:21:03.679
But if something hits a fan, it's really bad.
00:21:03.679 --> 00:21:06.409
It's like, if you're not great board members, then we're in a problem, right?
00:21:06.459 --> 00:21:15.128
I don't know that boards think of themselves in that way, but I think that that's sort of the best analogy I can get is sort of like the people who are more intentional in their roles, they're great, right?
00:21:15.128 --> 00:21:19.628
Like, I'm a mom of four, and so it's like I could sit here and let my kids play iPad all the time, right?
00:21:20.159 --> 00:21:21.388
And they'd probably be fine.
00:21:21.388 --> 00:21:23.669
They'd grow up, they'd grow, you know, and do all these different things.
00:21:23.669 --> 00:21:27.449
But will they have all the experiences they need to have, will they be able to do all these different things?
00:21:27.449 --> 00:21:34.709
And I think boards of that are in a, in a really critical position to maybe make sure that institutions are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing.
00:21:34.709 --> 00:21:36.269
They're holding other folks accountable.
00:21:36.598 --> 00:21:37.828
Demetri and I talk a lot about.
00:21:37.979 --> 00:21:39.298
Asking those pivotal questions.
00:21:39.298 --> 00:21:41.939
'cause that's the number one sort of tool, board tab.
00:21:41.939 --> 00:21:48.798
Are they asking the right questions of the right people at the right time to make sure folks are being accountable and they're knowing that someone is watching?
00:21:48.798 --> 00:21:48.979
Right?
00:21:49.038 --> 00:21:51.949
This is when a lot of stuff goes awry when folks don't think that anyone is watching.
00:21:51.949 --> 00:21:51.963
And then so.
00:21:52.294 --> 00:21:55.233
Folks are sort of just going along But there is a role they have to play.
00:21:55.413 --> 00:21:57.634
There is intentionality that has to go with that.
00:21:57.634 --> 00:21:59.074
There is work.
00:21:59.074 --> 00:22:03.304
and we talk about, you know, is your board a barrier to what's happening on campus?
00:22:03.334 --> 00:22:04.413
Is your board an inhibitor?
00:22:04.413 --> 00:22:04.743
Right?
00:22:04.743 --> 00:22:06.903
Are you sort of a, a bystander?
00:22:07.023 --> 00:22:09.993
Are you a catalyzer to some of these things or are you an initiator?
00:22:09.993 --> 00:22:13.923
And so people often think of boards are supposed to be at this high level, which they are.
00:22:13.923 --> 00:22:17.193
They're not on the day-to-day on the, the, the street level, right?
00:22:17.193 --> 00:22:17.763
That sort of thing.
00:22:17.763 --> 00:22:25.804
You know, and we talked earlier about students, I've often found the students are some of the most engaged board members because they often feel like they have this thing to prove because they're junior to a lot of these folks.
00:22:25.804 --> 00:22:27.334
They don't have these great accolades.
00:22:27.394 --> 00:22:30.064
And so they're talking about their reading, their board book and advance.
00:22:30.064 --> 00:22:31.534
People are looking to them to respond.
00:22:31.534 --> 00:22:35.763
So you could passively go through the role, but you can also be very great at the role, right.
00:22:35.763 --> 00:22:39.364
And have people know that you're, you're about the business, uh, of the board.
00:22:39.364 --> 00:22:43.114
And so I think when you ask the question of how powerful are they, um.
00:22:43.574 --> 00:22:44.534
Very powerful.
00:22:44.773 --> 00:22:48.013
And then sometimes you don't know until they flex, right?
00:22:48.013 --> 00:22:53.983
Like, but if someone can deny tenure and, and change the trajectory of, of a person's career, that's pretty powerful.
00:22:53.983 --> 00:22:59.683
If someone is determining who's gonna be the next chancellor or president or the face of an institution, that's pretty powerful.
00:22:59.683 --> 00:23:04.963
If someone can determine whether or not we're gonna go bankrupt or stay in the black, that I'd say that's pretty powerful.
00:23:04.963 --> 00:23:08.084
We have board members that are deciding, which, uh.
00:23:08.153 --> 00:23:10.854
Conference people are going into, and for all the sports lovers, right?
00:23:10.854 --> 00:23:16.074
Like if you're gonna go from the Pac 12 to the A, c, c, good, bad, or ugly, right?
00:23:16.074 --> 00:23:18.114
Like, that is determined by the board.
00:23:18.114 --> 00:23:19.193
That's a board decision.
00:23:19.193 --> 00:23:20.723
These things matter, right?
00:23:20.723 --> 00:23:28.604
Like if you think about, um, are we gonna remove buildings or change the names of buildings because they, they carry things from slavery that's a board decision.
00:23:28.604 --> 00:23:34.394
And so when people say boards don't matter as much, like obviously you can hear it in my voice, I, I don't understand what they're thinking about.
00:23:34.394 --> 00:23:36.314
It's because they don't understand how universities work.
00:23:36.314 --> 00:23:37.933
And I do think that that's a disservice.
00:23:37.993 --> 00:23:39.104
And I, I, you know, Dr.
00:23:39.104 --> 00:23:39.794
Morgan talked about that.
00:23:40.064 --> 00:23:43.153
We have to know more about what all the different parts are supposed to do.
00:23:43.153 --> 00:23:45.824
Like the left needs know what the right hand is supposed to be doing.
00:23:45.854 --> 00:23:48.314
And oftentimes boards are not that, right?
00:23:48.314 --> 00:23:50.773
The people don't know the power in which they wield.
00:23:51.054 --> 00:23:53.213
also boards don't even understand the gravity of.
00:23:53.278 --> 00:24:06.749
Of what they have to do because they sort of just model what the person next to them is doing, because there's also very little board orientation and training, which I think is also problematic when we think about these things because they have to learn what the institution is.
00:24:06.749 --> 00:24:08.159
They have to learn what they're supposed to do.
00:24:08.159 --> 00:24:09.778
They have to learn about how their votes are.
00:24:09.959 --> 00:24:10.183
Dr.
00:24:10.183 --> 00:24:22.739
Morgan talked about committees, but then there's also sort of like the closed sessions, and so there's open sessions and closed sessions, and so there's deals that are happening there, or when they're having coffee or when they're on the golf course, like there's so much nuance to this role.
00:24:22.739 --> 00:24:25.618
And so I think it's, it's a simple answer to your question.
00:24:25.618 --> 00:24:27.118
Yes, boards are very powerful.
00:24:27.358 --> 00:24:31.108
Um, and it just depends on how they implement that power.
00:24:31.682 --> 00:24:41.942
This terminology of latent power, I think is so incredibly useful to me to help visualize sort of the power of, uh, boards of governance rate.
00:24:42.272 --> 00:24:54.617
Um, I'm kind of thinking about, you know, how the vice president approving the election results is technically a rubber stamp, but the withholding of that rubber stamp actually results in a constitutional crisis, right?
00:24:54.617 --> 00:25:02.208
So it's kind of this latent power that we don't really have to think about until we really, really have to think about it.
00:25:02.208 --> 00:25:02.597
Right.
00:25:04.593 --> 00:25:05.012
Okay.
00:25:05.063 --> 00:25:07.643
So my next question is about communication.
00:25:07.883 --> 00:25:14.992
I'm thinking about the folks who are on these boards not having a background in higher education, right?
00:25:14.992 --> 00:25:23.147
I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of these folks, uh, don't have higher education expertise, and in fact, that's why they're selected, right?
00:25:23.407 --> 00:25:25.583
To bring that outsider perspective.
00:25:25.853 --> 00:25:29.063
But at the same time, I would hope that their.
00:25:29.303 --> 00:25:31.702
doing the work to sort of inform themselves.
00:25:31.883 --> 00:25:42.492
And, um, at the same time, I imagine they also have a day job and are running a business or representing a constituency and they have pretty full plates, right?
00:25:42.702 --> 00:25:50.952
They might not have the kind of time that we would hope for them to have to really become experts in the thing that they're doing.
00:25:52.087 --> 00:25:58.657
So how does the average board member go about becoming informed?
00:25:59.048 --> 00:26:12.097
Also since most of our listeners are, you know, academic workers where students, faculty, staff at universities, uh, it seems like it's pretty important for us to understand how to communicate our needs and.
00:26:12.153 --> 00:26:17.522
Our wants and our visions for what higher education should be to the board.
00:26:17.762 --> 00:26:20.343
What are some good ways of doing that?
00:26:21.113 --> 00:26:21.292
Yeah.
00:26:21.292 --> 00:26:22.397
I I love this question.
00:26:22.397 --> 00:26:47.818
This is, an existential question that as academic laborers and as the higher ed community, we need to really innovate and rethink, So the, the technical answer is some public boards, uh, will have kind of open comment time, similar to, um, how a town hall might, might operate, or, where, you know, you get two minutes of, of time, you have to sort of pre-register and you can share your, your information.
00:26:48.209 --> 00:26:49.858
Um, but it's very one way, right?
00:26:49.888 --> 00:26:56.108
So like Demetri signs up, he says like, Hey, I think there should be, better food in the dining hall.
00:26:56.298 --> 00:26:59.509
please don't renew the contract with, uh, Chartwells.
00:26:59.818 --> 00:27:01.019
and the board, listens.
00:27:01.078 --> 00:27:03.838
They might ask questions very, very rarely do they.
00:27:04.199 --> 00:27:06.058
Um, but that is one form.
00:27:06.628 --> 00:27:08.759
Others will have kind of open comments.
00:27:08.788 --> 00:27:17.199
Some institutions have the board members', um, emails, so there's kind of some of the typical ways that we've come to interact with public officials board.
00:27:17.199 --> 00:27:22.833
Some boards have those mechanisms available to the campus community, um, as well.
00:27:23.163 --> 00:27:28.773
But I would say that more often than not, it's gonna be one way asynchronous communication.
00:27:29.003 --> 00:27:48.257
some of the best things that I've seen in my research are actually from student reporters who will do kind of a summary after a board, uh, meeting and, and publish something in the campus newspaper of Sometimes boards themselves will put out summaries of, of what they've done that I've seen over the years, but it's, it's very.
00:27:48.601 --> 00:27:52.560
Hodgepodge, there's no kind of systematic way of communicating.
00:27:52.891 --> 00:27:57.881
And it gets even harder once you go into the private school realm, They're, they're volunteers.
00:27:57.881 --> 00:27:59.711
We always remind people they're not getting paid.
00:28:00.191 --> 00:28:01.901
Some places they are elected.
00:28:01.951 --> 00:28:03.570
But in most places, they're, they're not.
00:28:03.570 --> 00:28:05.010
So what is that mechanism?
00:28:05.010 --> 00:28:05.851
What should that look like?
00:28:05.851 --> 00:28:09.330
What are the, what are the experiments that we think are working well?
00:28:09.691 --> 00:28:18.990
Um, and, and the question you're asking, I think is one that we need to be asking more and then trying out different things to see, does this help open up our understanding of board members?
00:28:19.211 --> 00:28:26.290
does it help board members feel a responsibility to communicate and to share what's, what's going on in more transparent ways?
00:28:26.530 --> 00:28:32.931
But I think often people see nothing and then just assume that the nefarious board members, you know, making decisions on our behalf.
00:28:33.250 --> 00:28:44.201
and of course some of that happens, but I think more often than not, it's just not a muscle we've exercised on either side, like of people wanting to share and engage with the board and of board members wanting to communicate out.
00:28:44.201 --> 00:28:46.990
And that's why I think there's a, a lot of room for, for innovation.
00:28:47.381 --> 00:28:51.090
And then the other thing I'll say, cause it's related, is that, uh, Dr.
00:28:51.090 --> 00:28:51.840
Rall mentioned this.
00:28:52.840 --> 00:29:07.426
What we know about board members is that they have, a spectrum of, of an orientation they're selected or appointed or elected, and then they go through, you know, for some people it's like a couple of emails that say, Hey, you're on the board now.
00:29:07.426 --> 00:29:09.826
Make sure you fill out your conflict of interest forms.
00:29:10.247 --> 00:29:12.406
And now that's the extent of their training.
00:29:12.737 --> 00:29:19.186
Um, so there is no communication training, there is no expectation of how they're interrelating with the campus community.
00:29:19.547 --> 00:29:27.836
Um, and then in terms of ongoing training and development, that is very, um, at their own, interest of the, the board member.
00:29:27.836 --> 00:29:30.866
So there's lots of board members who are like, I actually want to be really good at this.
00:29:30.866 --> 00:29:37.017
I care about this institution either because I went there or because it's in my community, uh, and I want to be good at this.
00:29:37.017 --> 00:29:37.227
And so.
00:29:37.540 --> 00:29:38.951
They take it up on themselves.
00:29:39.340 --> 00:29:43.631
Uh, but the, the other kind of big point is that boards have to act as a collective.
00:29:43.631 --> 00:29:54.871
So, even if you have one really good board member or a few that are really interested in communicating well and want to be out there, they can't speak for the board unless the board fully signs off on that.
00:29:54.871 --> 00:30:08.560
And so it also is stifling a little bit, even when you have board members who do wanna be a little bit more engaged, they have to be really careful that they're not, suggesting that what they're saying or thinking is on behalf of the board, because that's a position that the institution is then taking.
00:30:08.951 --> 00:30:10.060
So they have to be really careful.
00:30:10.060 --> 00:30:16.631
So it also serves as a stifling, again, not necessarily for nefarious reasons, but just like mechanically and logistically.
00:30:16.976 --> 00:30:21.895
How do I communicate as an individual trustee when what we're supposed to be doing is as a collective?
00:30:22.175 --> 00:30:32.986
and that creates, again, hesitation to say something or to be more engaged, um, because you're kind of operating a whole, imagine if Congress people couldn't say anything unless everybody in Congress agreed with it.
00:30:33.016 --> 00:30:34.306
Fox News would be out of business.
00:30:34.951 --> 00:30:38.192
But, you know, that's how a lot of board members approach their work.
00:30:38.192 --> 00:30:41.852
Like, I can't say anything as an individual, I have to speak on behalf of the board.
00:30:42.152 --> 00:30:44.342
Um, and that's usually done through the board chair.
00:30:44.342 --> 00:30:46.531
and so it, it doesn't allow for as much touch points.
00:30:47.531 --> 00:30:54.567
And, and it's really hard at a lot of institutions, like if you try to Google contact information, you, you can't find it for a lot of board members sometimes.
00:30:54.777 --> 00:30:58.616
I, I have seen in the last five years or so where they're more open facing.
00:30:58.616 --> 00:31:02.696
Like you can get a picture now, maybe an email or at least says, go to the board secretary.
00:31:02.696 --> 00:31:07.146
But a decade ago it was really hard to even find like, who are, who's on the board.
00:31:07.146 --> 00:31:07.926
it was very hard.
00:31:07.926 --> 00:31:13.596
And I think that there's intentionality in that because again, very important folks and they, there is some protective factors of that.
00:31:13.596 --> 00:31:17.886
But, thinking about what's the best way for boards to receive information?
00:31:17.886 --> 00:31:20.391
And there is no great way, right?
00:31:20.391 --> 00:31:25.431
Like there are some board members looking at TikTok, believe it or not, to try to understand what's happening with higher education.
00:31:25.770 --> 00:31:28.201
So this is something we're wrestling with with our project as well.
00:31:28.201 --> 00:31:28.560
It's like.
00:31:28.915 --> 00:31:30.056
Is it a podcast?
00:31:30.115 --> 00:31:31.256
Is it a one pager?
00:31:31.316 --> 00:31:32.516
Is it this weekly briefing?
00:31:32.516 --> 00:31:36.046
Like, what are the easiest ways for folks to internalize some information, right?
00:31:36.046 --> 00:31:39.288
And It's hard to, pinpoint one great way.
00:31:39.288 --> 00:31:59.328
And I, I think that's something that we do need to kind of focus on more is, is what is the best way to help folks who have a job, who meet episodically, who really do want the best for the institutions, who don't have the expertise, who come from all walks of life to really understand, here's what you need to know, here's how we go forth, and that sort of thing.
00:31:59.618 --> 00:32:05.723
And it's even more complicated in today's times when folks are drinking out of a literal fire hose, right?
00:32:05.723 --> 00:32:08.003
Sometimes because the world is on fire.
00:32:08.334 --> 00:32:23.723
And then they're also trying to think about long-term planning, Like it's hard to be a board member because you have to be both doing the sprint and thinking about the marathon at the same time You have to necessarily think about every decision I make today is gonna impact the decisions that are gonna happen decades from now, right?
00:32:23.723 --> 00:32:28.763
And so I need to make sure that we are on, you know, making sound decisions on behalf of the institution.
00:32:29.683 --> 00:32:55.413
So I did want to ask you, I think this is kind of what the whole interview has been building up to, because this is a theme that's come up in many episodes that we've recorded so far in many conversations that we've had is how many of us are feeling, you know, not necessarily lost individually, but definitely a float institutionally because people in leadership roles seem not to be taking on the onus of leadership.
00:32:56.669 --> 00:33:12.328
So I do wanna make sure I ask, What that move towards courageous leadership might look like in this moment, and how might we, as academic workers help our board members to be more courageous and be more principled in their actions as board members?
00:33:12.429 --> 00:33:20.088
So courageous leadership right now is just what leadership, good leadership has always been, but now like the outside world makes it seem like it's not.
00:33:20.088 --> 00:33:22.398
So for board members, it's really sustain the course.
00:33:22.459 --> 00:33:23.388
Stick to the mission.
00:33:23.388 --> 00:33:29.239
If your mission has been about access, diversity, belonging, you need to do that work, right?
00:33:29.239 --> 00:33:32.608
Just because people are now saying that it's not popular but that's what your mission is like.
00:33:32.638 --> 00:33:34.229
That's literally your job, right?
00:33:34.229 --> 00:33:37.439
It's, it's made me, it's more challenging because of the circumstances.
00:33:37.439 --> 00:33:37.588
Right.
00:33:37.588 --> 00:33:39.058
But their job has remained their job.
00:33:39.179 --> 00:33:46.108
And so these fiduciary duties and roles and responsibilities that the board has had, have always been, those duties have always been those things.
00:33:46.108 --> 00:33:47.038
And so I think it's just.
00:33:47.348 --> 00:33:48.729
Do your job right?
00:33:49.162 --> 00:33:52.521
Stanley Fish has this book we had to read when I was in the PhD program.
00:33:52.521 --> 00:33:53.872
It's like, save the world in your own time.
00:33:53.872 --> 00:33:57.832
But it's like, do your job, don't let anyone else do your job and don't do it anyone else's job.
00:33:57.832 --> 00:34:05.951
So boards have to do their job and they can't allow politics, politicians or anyone else to do their job and try to do it for them, right?
00:34:05.951 --> 00:34:09.402
And so that in of itself is courageous leadership right now.
00:34:09.402 --> 00:34:12.552
That's courageous governance right now is simply staying the course.
00:34:12.552 --> 00:34:14.771
we're not asking boards to do anything that's illegal.
00:34:14.771 --> 00:34:18.222
We're not asking them to do anything that's outside of their job we're asking them to do.
00:34:18.567 --> 00:34:19.916
What they've been tasked to do.
00:34:19.916 --> 00:34:22.976
Nothing really legal has happened to higher education, right?
00:34:22.976 --> 00:34:27.327
Like these changes that people are, are thinking that are gonna make, we, we can't be scared, right?
00:34:27.327 --> 00:34:29.577
Like, we've talked about this in some of the materials that we've put out.
00:34:29.577 --> 00:34:35.666
It's like, unless there's a legal act that's made to tell you you have to change, don't make changes.
00:34:35.996 --> 00:34:38.336
What is the difference between how you were doing business?
00:34:38.336 --> 00:34:41.246
Now we're in June, so let's say seven months ago.
00:34:41.516 --> 00:34:47.286
Have y'all completely changed where you're not the same institution where now you need to be doing business differently than you were before.
00:34:47.347 --> 00:34:50.737
And most times folks will like, will say no, it's just a different person in office.
00:34:50.737 --> 00:34:52.086
And so now we're afraid, right?
00:34:52.451 --> 00:35:02.050
We need to do better as leaders to help people understand that if the funding gets cut, regardless of what your political affiliation is, that could also mean impacts on your healthcare.
00:35:02.050 --> 00:35:04.811
That could mean impacts on your, um, business, right?
00:35:04.811 --> 00:35:06.161
Like what's happening in your communities.
00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:10.900
Because a lot of our institutions also serve our regions, or especially our regional institutions, right?
00:35:10.900 --> 00:35:17.025
Like people who are getting funded and who are going to get these degrees are then coming right back into the communities and working in that particular area.
00:35:17.076 --> 00:35:26.246
I think higher education in general and leaders in general need to do a better job of helping everyone, not just people who are going to higher education Understand that they too benefit from higher education.
00:35:26.295 --> 00:35:35.465
College may not be for, for everyone, but you do benefit from what's happening at these institutions, especially the R one institutions, right, that are producing research that are looking for cures to cancer.
00:35:35.646 --> 00:35:42.755
You know, I, I jokingly talk about my campus at uc, Riverside, there wouldn't be a cutie that everyone knows what a little cutie, the orange cutie is without UCR, right?
00:35:42.755 --> 00:35:44.615
And think about places that are doing avocado.
00:35:44.675 --> 00:35:45.695
Everyone eats these things.
00:35:45.695 --> 00:35:47.945
So it's not a just a higher ed problem.
00:35:47.945 --> 00:35:49.536
It's a society problem, right?
00:35:49.585 --> 00:35:58.106
We have to think about that collectivity more and more if we wanna be considered courageous, because it's harder to kind of pluck all of us off if we're unified and if we're together.
00:35:58.458 --> 00:36:05.208
I've really been disappointed in institutions that are changing graduation ceremonies that you can't have a black grad or rasa grad, anymore.
00:36:05.208 --> 00:36:06.318
And it's like, well, what is it?
00:36:06.438 --> 00:36:07.637
HARM folks, right?
00:36:08.137 --> 00:36:11.978
courageous leadership is thinking about what is actually legal, what isn't?
00:36:11.978 --> 00:36:16.148
What are we just doing because we're afraid and we're anticipating, This repressive legalism,
00:36:16.648 --> 00:36:17.068
Yeah.
00:36:17.068 --> 00:36:21.648
And, uh, I'll just add that the project we've been referring to, so, uh, Dr.
00:36:21.648 --> 00:36:41.047
All and I, um, in this past year, um, launched the Center for Strategic and Inclusive Governance, which is really focused on becoming a go-to resource and hub for board members and those that work with them, board professionals, uh, senior leaders, and based on everything that Dr.
00:36:41.047 --> 00:36:42.217
Rall just mentioned.
00:36:42.623 --> 00:36:53.483
One of the things that has become really clear to us that not that many people will always say out loud is, is that one, this work is really hard and complex.
00:36:53.532 --> 00:37:00.012
and that there are often, gaps in understanding or information about how to do those things.
00:37:00.583 --> 00:37:08.382
We start from the premise that a board member doesn't understand or know what academic freedom is, and we try to make the affirmative case to say, here is this.
00:37:08.728 --> 00:37:18.777
This principle that we think is really important, here's what it means from your perspective as a board member and doing some of what we call the translational work to say, here are these values, here are these things.
00:37:19.137 --> 00:37:22.867
How do we translate it for a board member to help them understand What is it?
00:37:23.447 --> 00:37:24.737
why do people care about it?
00:37:24.737 --> 00:37:25.668
Why does it matter?
00:37:26.027 --> 00:37:34.878
And what role can the board member play in, in advancing or potentially harming this, this work on, on a given college campus?
00:37:35.277 --> 00:37:48.838
our project is really designed to take up that issue and start to fill some of these gaps, some of, of the work that we're pointing to, but also trying to point to other really great work that's out there, um, that is tackling these issues and helping board members.
00:37:49.088 --> 00:37:51.847
We talk a lot about their information appetite, right?
00:37:51.847 --> 00:37:54.697
Like what are they taking in about higher ed?
00:37:54.918 --> 00:37:55.697
and is it healthy?
00:37:55.697 --> 00:37:56.597
Is it balanced?
00:37:56.597 --> 00:38:01.498
Is it, the types of things that we think should be in front of them that they should be consuming?
00:38:01.807 --> 00:38:04.208
that helps them make be better decision makers.
00:38:04.507 --> 00:38:11.318
And knowing that even as somebody that's in higher ed that, you know, eats drinks and sleeps higher ed, it's overwhelming for me.
00:38:11.648 --> 00:38:17.858
How much more is it gonna be overwhelming for somebody who, again, is well intentioned but isn't thinking about this all the time?
00:38:17.858 --> 00:38:19.717
So how can we do some of that translational work?
00:38:19.717 --> 00:38:29.007
How can we point them to resources, to people, to thinkers, that are really activating, you know, and pushing higher ed forward in different ways and getting that information to them.
00:38:29.367 --> 00:38:36.777
And, and we think that's really important because if you think it's missing, we think the same sort of tired information gets circulated and translated of how we should do this.
00:38:36.777 --> 00:38:37.978
And we're seeing it right now, right?
00:38:37.978 --> 00:38:39.177
Like everybody should just kind of.
00:38:39.733 --> 00:38:43.177
Hide and don't say anything and hope that the administration doesn't pick on you.
00:38:43.208 --> 00:38:46.297
That's like the playbook that's being passed around right now.
00:38:46.302 --> 00:38:50.318
and it's not serving, all institutions Well, and, and in the same way.
00:38:50.318 --> 00:39:01.947
So how do we get different ideas out there of different ways that, this can be approached and normalize it as like, hey, there are other ways of approaching governance issues than the kind of same old, tired playbooks that we've seen.
00:39:02.288 --> 00:39:08.338
And, you know, one of the things that we always try to honor is that a lot of the critiques of higher ed are based in truth, right?
00:39:08.338 --> 00:39:14.998
Like if you talk to most people on campus, nobody was, a hundred percent happy with how diversity, equity, and inclusion was playing out.
00:39:14.998 --> 00:39:19.858
So there's some kernel of truths, but where we differ is on what we do next after that, right?
00:39:19.858 --> 00:39:23.577
Some people say throw it away, and other people say no, like radically reform it.
00:39:23.577 --> 00:39:25.918
And other people say no, like systematically reform it.
00:39:26.248 --> 00:39:29.427
That's a conversation that the board should be shepherding, that they should say.
00:39:29.427 --> 00:39:34.103
Like, yeah, what are the, the different ways of understanding and thinking about this and going.
00:39:34.992 --> 00:39:41.233
In one direction in imposing it, because that's what people outside of the institution are, are saying is, is not helpful.
00:39:41.233 --> 00:39:45.643
That's not playing that, that kind of long-term sustaining role that board should play.
00:39:45.882 --> 00:39:54.402
But having a robust and rigorous sort of thoughtful way of thinking about what is our gonna be, our approach and strategy to academic freedom to share governance.
00:39:54.643 --> 00:39:59.483
What does our relationship look like with our faculty senate and is it serving us well in this moment?
00:39:59.842 --> 00:40:02.063
Those are questions that the board should be asking.
00:40:02.063 --> 00:40:06.532
And so we're trying to help them understand that there are other ways of approaching this.
00:40:06.583 --> 00:40:17.152
they've yet to be tried out at the scale and level, but just because they're, they're not, executed yet doesn't mean that they can't lead to really helpful and productive alternatives for institutions.
00:40:17.152 --> 00:40:21.472
And so we're, we're inviting people into that conversation with us and in other.
00:40:21.717 --> 00:40:35.887
groups that are also trying to push people to say like, there's other ways that we can be navigating, through this and, and, but we need to have the courage and, and also the imagination that there are other ways that to be approaching this thing, um, kind of the same old tire playbooks.
00:40:36.887 --> 00:40:44.407
And now that I know that, trustees are getting their news from TikTok, I look forward to seeing you all there, uh, educating us.
00:40:45.407 --> 00:40:49.072
Um, yeah, we had someone who was like, y'all need to make a TikTok, and I was like, oh my gosh.
00:40:49.072 --> 00:40:50.032
Like this is where we are.
00:40:50.032 --> 00:40:59.242
But I mean, to our point, and this is why we made this website, is sort of, we need to have a place where we can sort of funnel all sorts of things and kind of meet people where they are.
00:40:59.242 --> 00:41:02.603
And if someone else has a really cool TikTok, we could post it on there as well.
00:41:02.603 --> 00:41:08.452
We sort of see our site as a starting point to kind of let people go down the rabbit hole however far they want to go.
00:41:08.452 --> 00:41:10.492
But there hasn't been a place like that.
00:41:10.492 --> 00:41:14.963
There hasn't been something like that, that has been open access where people can sort of see all different.
00:41:15.246 --> 00:41:23.277
Kinds of approaches to this, whether it's a scholarly article or a magazine article or just a report or, or whatever the case may be.
00:41:23.277 --> 00:41:29.456
So we're really excited about it and know it's like when we launch it it's not gonna be exhaustive, but we're gonna continue to build it.
00:41:29.456 --> 00:41:31.916
And we are also, what's cool is that we're partner with other folks.
00:41:31.916 --> 00:41:34.407
It's like, send us something that you would say, right?
00:41:34.407 --> 00:41:35.726
Like, and so that's then there.
00:41:35.726 --> 00:41:46.737
And so I think that that collaborative nature is something that we think is important Our big thing is we want folks to know more about boards and, and how boards work and how universities work.
00:41:47.036 --> 00:41:50.007
And so I think we wanna encourage folks to be curious.
00:41:50.007 --> 00:41:53.697
'cause often folks think like they don't need to know about how universities work.
00:41:54.297 --> 00:41:56.157
But they do, and, and it matters.
00:41:56.157 --> 00:42:05.036
Like Demetri and I both teach courses about governance and different things, and I, I'm always surprised by how many people after the course who started out knowing nothing after the course of like.
00:42:05.512 --> 00:42:06.711
I'm gonna ask about this.
00:42:06.711 --> 00:42:13.342
I've had students who are saying they've tried to be the student region for our system after that because they're like, I need a voice and I need to do these different things.
00:42:13.342 --> 00:42:20.362
And so I think folks think it's not a topic, um, that they wanna know or need to know about, or that it might be boring or that sort of thing.
00:42:20.362 --> 00:42:26.931
But I, I just encourage them to know how interesting it is and how connected it is to so many things that are happening on campus.
00:42:26.931 --> 00:42:38.331
When you talked about, you know, protests or free speech, uh, how professors get tenure, you know, all these things that matter and are happening at our campuses, there's a connection back to the board.
00:42:38.331 --> 00:42:47.722
And so I, I, I just really want to just say, encourage people, whether it's through our site or other sites, really try to have an understanding of, of how institutions work.
00:42:47.722 --> 00:42:48.831
I think that's really important.
00:42:49.831 --> 00:42:50.222
Perfect.
00:42:51.222 --> 00:42:51.641
Alright.
00:42:51.641 --> 00:42:52.782
Thank you all so much.
00:42:52.831 --> 00:42:57.092
So that's it for our conversation with Raquel Rawl and Demetri Martin.
00:42:57.811 --> 00:43:03.351
The web resource they spoke about That's Strategic inclusive governance.org.
00:43:04.251 --> 00:43:07.072
They've also shared a short description that I'll read now.
00:43:07.132 --> 00:43:13.282
CSIG equips higher education boards and leaders with research informed tools for mission center decision making.
00:43:14.867 --> 00:43:25.697
It's training programs, open access, resource hub, and rapid response guides, bridge scholarship and practice helping institutions navigate challenges and advance student success.
00:43:26.416 --> 00:43:37.427
And that website one more time is strategic inclusive governance.org, and you'll find a link to it in our show notes today, just in case you're not a hundred percent sure on how to spell governance.
00:43:38.382 --> 00:43:39.581
I do hope you check it out.
00:43:39.581 --> 00:43:44.981
I hope you're feeling curious about the members of your own board and that you're inspired to look into them a bit more.
00:43:45.552 --> 00:43:52.001
Another wonderful resource that I point students to when they're wanting to power Map our institutions is little cis.org.
00:43:52.541 --> 00:44:00.552
That's an open source database that tracks who knows who, so it can be a good way to learn more about your board members and where their interests lie.
00:44:01.152 --> 00:44:02.922
That's little sis.org.
00:44:03.192 --> 00:44:04.601
It's the opposite of Big Brother.
00:44:05.561 --> 00:44:08.322
And so I guess that's the homework I'm gonna leave you with this month.
00:44:08.771 --> 00:44:15.461
Get curious about your boards and go learn more about them at Little SIS and strategic inclusive governance.org.
00:44:16.661 --> 00:44:20.981
Thanks for listening to AAUP Presents Academic Freedom on the line with me, Vineeta Singh.
00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:07.160
So courageous leadership right now is just what good leadership has always been, but now like the outside world makes it seem like it's not.
00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:09.470
So for board members, it's really sustain the course.
00:00:09.529 --> 00:00:10.460
Stick to the mission.
00:00:10.460 --> 00:00:16.309
If your mission has been about access, diversity, belonging, you need to do that work, right?
00:00:16.309 --> 00:00:19.679
Just because people are now saying that it's not popular but that's what your mission is like.
00:00:19.710 --> 00:00:21.300
That's literally your job, right?
00:00:28.836 --> 00:00:42.057
Welcome to another episode of AAUP, presents Academic Freedom on the Line, a special series jointly produced by AAUP presents and the AAUP Center for the Defense of Academic Freedom.
00:00:42.896 --> 00:00:44.847
I'm Center fellow Vineeta Singh.
00:00:46.137 --> 00:00:52.646
If you've been following this special series, you'll have noticed that we keep coming up against questions of power and leadership.
00:00:53.026 --> 00:00:54.615
Who has the power to stop this?
00:00:54.932 --> 00:00:56.701
Who is supposed to have that power?
00:00:57.005 --> 00:01:02.945
Where are the leaders who will defend higher education from the extreme rights campaigns to discredit and defund our institutions?
00:01:03.667 --> 00:01:19.370
I think our most powerful response to this question so far came in the episode where we spoke with student organizers over the past few years, it's safe to say that students have provided us with the best models of what principled leadership can look like, but they can't do this alone and they shouldn't have to.
00:01:19.891 --> 00:01:30.212
So in this episode, I'm joined by two experts who work on governance boards, whether they're called the Board of Visitors, the Board of Regents, the board of Trustees.
00:01:30.355 --> 00:01:33.295
These are the who are tasked with leadership of our institutions.
00:01:37.094 --> 00:01:41.894
Our guests today study these boards, how they exercise their power and how.
00:01:42.155 --> 00:01:50.989
Academic workers and other community members can leverage the power of these boards to help institutions align with their stated missions.
00:01:52.933 --> 00:01:53.322
Dr.
00:01:53.322 --> 00:02:02.251
Raquel Rall is an associate professor in the school of Education at UC, Riverside, and her research center's post-secondary leadership and governance, And Dr.
00:02:02.251 --> 00:02:10.100
Demetri Morgan, who has been at the Center for the Study of Higher and post-Secondary education at the University of Michigan since fall 2024.
00:02:10.695 --> 00:02:14.979
His research and teaching focused on the role of higher education in a diverse democracy.
00:02:15.519 --> 00:02:18.639
He's also a fellow at the Center for the Defense of Academic Freedom.
00:02:25.456 --> 00:02:29.116
Okay, so I wanna start with a really basic question.
00:02:29.366 --> 00:02:45.747
Just to have sort of a shared base of understanding, could you explain, like you're speaking to a curious undergraduate, what even is a board of visitors slash region slash trustees slash whatever weird thing it's called in the institution that you happen to be in.
00:02:46.106 --> 00:02:49.467
Uh, why does it exist and what is it supposed to do?
00:02:50.467 --> 00:02:51.067
Yeah, sure.
00:02:51.076 --> 00:02:51.977
I can start with that.
00:02:51.977 --> 00:02:53.146
So I think it's important.
00:02:53.387 --> 00:02:57.887
I mean, even in your question, it's, there's so many different names, but they all are supposed to sort of do the same thing.
00:02:57.887 --> 00:03:03.616
And then some institutions have different levels, and so it might be an institution board of trustees or regents or whatever.
00:03:03.616 --> 00:03:06.210
And then there's a system level or state level.
00:03:06.210 --> 00:03:07.979
So there's levels to that.
00:03:07.979 --> 00:03:28.703
But in general, there's this idea that, a group of, individuals that were not necessarily affiliated with the institution would be able to help kind of govern with the best interest of society in mind, and that they wouldn't be, uh, tempted by political intrusion and all these different things because they didn't really have skin in the game necessarily for the institution.
00:03:28.703 --> 00:03:28.943
Right.
00:03:28.943 --> 00:03:31.693
And so they would be able to ensure autonomy, right?
00:03:31.693 --> 00:03:35.112
Or independence, however you wanna think about it, and, and govern on behalf.
00:03:35.201 --> 00:03:36.372
Of the public.
00:03:36.372 --> 00:03:37.572
And that was a really big thing.
00:03:37.572 --> 00:03:42.286
It's sort of like how a lot of companies now use a board of advisors, right?
00:03:43.175 --> 00:03:57.806
That they would help to offer guidance and they would see things at a different level, They bring this other expertise, whether they're coming from the political sphere, Or some of them are, have this great business acumen or investment acumen that you might not get if you had folks who were only in higher education, right?
00:03:57.806 --> 00:04:05.756
And so this is this group of, uh, of soloists as Dick talks about them, like come together to kind of be part of this choir for the institution.
00:04:05.756 --> 00:04:08.605
Like they're, they're masters in their own field, and that.
00:04:09.001 --> 00:04:13.531
they would come together to make sure that the institution is following its mission, right?
00:04:13.531 --> 00:04:20.490
Thinking about how best to, to serve students and best serve the community, its programs and all of these different things.
00:04:20.490 --> 00:04:26.341
And when you think about a board of trustees, of regions, uh, of visitors, rector, you know, all these different things that we have.
00:04:27.341 --> 00:04:30.161
We think about a lot of roles and responsibilities.
00:04:30.161 --> 00:04:35.771
So they really have like nine key roles and responsibilities that many people have agreed upon, right?
00:04:35.771 --> 00:04:39.012
Obviously people think about fiduciary duties, they think about the budget, right?
00:04:39.012 --> 00:04:41.021
Keep us in the black, make sure we don't go bankrupt.
00:04:41.021 --> 00:04:42.641
So that's, that's one, right?
00:04:42.641 --> 00:04:48.461
We often think about the most important is their selection of the, the institution president or chancellor, whatever they're called.
00:04:48.461 --> 00:04:50.682
So that's a big role that these boards have.
00:04:50.711 --> 00:04:53.711
And also monitoring them along the way, right?
00:04:53.711 --> 00:04:57.221
Strategic planning is a big piece of, of what boards do.
00:04:57.351 --> 00:05:01.132
if this is our mission, boards are the ones who are supposed to make sure that we keep to that mission, right?
00:05:01.132 --> 00:05:04.923
So those are some of like the high level ones that I think most folks would understand.
00:05:04.923 --> 00:05:05.762
It's like, huh, okay.
00:05:05.762 --> 00:05:07.202
They help us pick the president, right?
00:05:07.442 --> 00:05:26.317
Oh, they make sure that we keep money flowing Those are some of the main things that boards do, but it's really is supposed to be sort of this separate entity that, is not comprised solely of faculty or the chancellor or the governor, you know, all these different things and that they're supposed to help make sure that the institution is run the way it's supposed to be run.
00:05:26.406 --> 00:05:26.797
Right.
00:05:26.797 --> 00:05:30.247
And so I think that that's probably the easiest way to describe it.
00:05:30.247 --> 00:05:34.916
They, meet episodically maybe some, only four times a year, some six times a year.
00:05:35.437 --> 00:05:36.666
They're not full-time employees.
00:05:36.666 --> 00:05:41.776
They're probably one of the most, qualified volunteer jobs that you'll ever see.
00:05:41.776 --> 00:05:47.206
Like some of these folks are really like captains of industry and then they become a volunteer'cause they don't get paid to do this.
00:05:47.206 --> 00:05:47.507
Right.
00:05:47.507 --> 00:05:52.127
And so I think that's a really unique feature that we have for, for our boards.
00:05:52.367 --> 00:05:52.607
Yeah.
00:05:53.607 --> 00:05:53.966
Yeah.
00:05:54.016 --> 00:05:57.286
the only thing that I would add to that really great overview.
00:05:57.692 --> 00:06:03.302
Is just some of the nuance in thinking about public boards versus private boards.
00:06:03.362 --> 00:06:06.211
One of the main distinctions is the size.
00:06:06.572 --> 00:06:16.348
Uh, so if you're listening, um, from a private university, you might not know how many trustees or board members exist at your institution.
00:06:16.819 --> 00:06:23.259
Because at private universities there's also, a philanthropic relationship that board members often play, right?
00:06:23.259 --> 00:06:30.108
So we, when people talk about the donors, not all donors are are board members, but most board members are donors.
00:06:30.449 --> 00:06:34.949
so, uh, that's another way that people sometimes see and understand board members.
00:06:35.369 --> 00:06:39.178
Whereas at public institutions, the, the boards tend to be smaller.
00:06:39.358 --> 00:06:42.569
And they tend to be political appointees.
00:06:42.988 --> 00:06:47.939
that's one of the reasons why we start to see some of the tensions with the kind of ideal that Dr.
00:06:47.939 --> 00:06:55.978
Rall laid out, in public boards, they're appointed by the governor or, um, appointed and confirmed by the legislature.
00:06:56.278 --> 00:06:59.939
And so, um, it does start to inject some politics in it.
00:06:59.939 --> 00:07:03.278
And over the last, 10 years, we've seen increasing politics injected.
00:07:03.278 --> 00:07:06.038
But beforehand it was pretty perfunctory.
00:07:06.369 --> 00:07:06.848
Um.
00:07:07.283 --> 00:07:21.293
And wasn't seen as a hyper political appointment process because boards were understood as, uh, these, these kind of overarching people who were really interested in helping align the university with the best interest of, of the, the broader public.
00:07:21.684 --> 00:07:25.494
Um, and then just a word about the kind of internal infrastructure boards.
00:07:25.494 --> 00:07:33.113
So like most organizations, it's made up of committees and the committees tend to focus, uh, on different areas.
00:07:33.163 --> 00:07:37.483
things like investment, institutional compliance and risk management.
00:07:37.903 --> 00:07:38.353
Uh.
00:07:38.949 --> 00:07:41.274
academic affairs and student affairs.
00:07:41.274 --> 00:07:49.894
Every board, uh, will have kind of a different configuration and I always encourage academic workers, faculty, professionals to look up the structure of their board.
00:07:49.894 --> 00:07:56.824
It might give some insight into the things that the board thinks is important, both historically and, and in contemporary times.
00:07:57.163 --> 00:08:03.314
for example, the University of Michigan board has, specific committee, uh, for healthcare.
00:08:03.613 --> 00:08:07.033
And, and that tracks'cause we have a really big health system.
00:08:07.033 --> 00:08:10.334
Whereas at another university that doesn't have a health system, you might not see that.
00:08:10.334 --> 00:08:21.113
So some of the, um, kind of priorities and interests of the board are also reflected in the committee structure, and that's another good way to kind of get to know a board if you're, um, not as familiar
00:08:22.048 --> 00:08:22.319
Right.
00:08:22.379 --> 00:08:24.298
That makes so much sense.
00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:30.269
I guess my follow up questions would be about composition and turnover.
00:08:30.689 --> 00:08:35.578
So like with turnover, thinking about are there any term limits in place?
00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:52.846
Um, do governors just come in and change the whole board every four years or, you know, at private institution are folks just kind of waiting for existing trustees to, um, die and then get replaced.
00:08:52.907 --> 00:08:56.336
And then, uh, in terms of composition, Dr.
00:08:56.336 --> 00:09:02.636
Rall, I know you mentioned business and politics are maybe two major fields that are often represented on boards.
00:09:02.969 --> 00:09:07.168
And I know you mentioned, uh, student representatives, that sounds, incredibly exciting.
00:09:07.359 --> 00:09:13.283
If you could speak a little bit more about how common that is and what other types of folks might be represented on these boards.
00:09:14.442 --> 00:09:18.253
Yeah, I mean, those are all great questions that I think everyone is still grappling with.
00:09:18.253 --> 00:09:21.673
We don't have perfect answers, but traditionally, as Dr.
00:09:21.673 --> 00:09:37.248
Morgan sort of laid out, most public institutions, their boards are gubernatorial appointed, meaning you know, the governor and sometimes there's like a legislature confirmation, other times there's not There traditionally has been no rhyme or reason how folks get to be appointed on the board, believe it or not.
00:09:37.248 --> 00:09:41.807
Like there are very few qualifications that we've ever seen you know, I had one joke with me sometimes.
00:09:41.807 --> 00:09:44.898
Oh, I went to school kindergarten with Billy, who's the governor now, right?
00:09:44.898 --> 00:09:47.298
And when he became governor, he asked me if I wanna do this thing.
00:09:47.658 --> 00:09:48.288
It's like, huh.
00:09:48.347 --> 00:09:50.567
And obviously that's reducing it, right?
00:09:50.567 --> 00:10:02.187
Like that sort of, but it really is sometimes just who you know, who knows you but sometimes we've seen, like I've seen in my state in California where, you know, a Republican governor appointed someone, and then the Democratic governor reappointed that same person.
00:10:02.187 --> 00:10:03.788
So for me at the UC, right?
00:10:03.967 --> 00:10:06.217
They get 12 year terms, which is one of the longest.
00:10:06.222 --> 00:10:09.942
In the nation to have a 12 year term for something and to get reappointed.
00:10:09.942 --> 00:10:19.423
So you think if someone who's been there for 24 years, the numbers of of presidents, system heads, chancellor, all these things, tuition changes they've been able to oversee and have their hands in, right?
00:10:19.423 --> 00:10:20.863
Is, is astronomical.
00:10:20.863 --> 00:10:22.003
So I think it's really important.
00:10:22.003 --> 00:10:28.982
I think about, and sometimes if you think about community colleges, we haven't really brought them up there's a lot of elections oftentimes, or by districts, right?
00:10:28.982 --> 00:10:31.263
So there are different ways that these things are, are structured.
00:10:31.263 --> 00:10:35.253
So there is even more politics there because folks are vying for votes, right?
00:10:35.253 --> 00:10:37.476
And it's a little bit more open facing so yes.
00:10:38.226 --> 00:10:39.256
About composition.
00:10:39.546 --> 00:10:40.041
Uh, Dr.
00:10:40.041 --> 00:10:42.426
Morgan and I did this article with, uh, Dr.
00:10:42.426 --> 00:10:51.816
Chait just thinking about board alignment, you know, their composition versus the composition of students because, the board is supposed to be representative of community society in which that institution is.
00:10:51.816 --> 00:10:57.086
And so that means different things if you're in, you know, Iowa versus if you're at the HBCU.
00:10:57.186 --> 00:11:02.801
traditionally though, if you're thinking of the, the grand scheme of things, board members have traditionally been older, white, wealthy men.
00:11:03.061 --> 00:11:04.201
And so that's not hyperbole.
00:11:04.201 --> 00:11:05.341
That's what everyone will say.
00:11:05.341 --> 00:11:06.541
They'll say it in different ways.
00:11:06.541 --> 00:11:07.380
But that's the facts.
00:11:07.380 --> 00:11:13.995
And that's traditionally because if you think about how higher education started and who it was for is for, you know, white wealthy men.
00:11:14.044 --> 00:11:22.565
And so often when we're thinking about how do folks get on the board, it's, again, it's who, you know, if you think about the majority of governors in the United States are white men, right?
00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:28.174
We, we seldom ever have a woman, we seldom ever have a person of color and they're doing the appointments right?
00:11:28.174 --> 00:11:30.445
So often this continues with this cycle.
00:11:30.961 --> 00:11:33.360
Young folks are also in the minority on that.
00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:35.461
So most board members are like 60 plus.
00:11:35.461 --> 00:11:37.850
and so you think about how education has changed.
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.750
Those folks are not looking at the same types of institutions in which they went.
00:11:41.811 --> 00:11:44.971
Sometimes composition also, includes alumni.
00:11:44.971 --> 00:11:45.660
Sometimes there are.
00:11:45.676 --> 00:11:49.566
Specific spots for alumni Regents, there's exofficio roles.
00:11:49.566 --> 00:11:53.716
So like in California, like Lieutenant Governor, gets a spot on the board, right?
00:11:53.716 --> 00:11:56.865
Like if you're the, um, a faculty rep, you might get a spot on the board.
00:11:56.916 --> 00:12:05.885
Sometimes, oddly enough, governors have a, a seat on the board, and so it's this really weird thing that they're supposed to be able to make decisions apart from them, but they're actually on the board.
00:12:05.885 --> 00:12:06.125
as well.
00:12:06.125 --> 00:12:11.135
Still have the chancellor, the president of the institution on a board, have a seat on a board and So there's so much nuance.
00:12:11.436 --> 00:12:21.546
Uh, to that point, most boards don't have students, I think the last number I, I saw when I looked was about 70% or so our boards have maybe a student representative with or without a vote.
00:12:21.903 --> 00:12:24.663
And so that's typically either one student or two students.
00:12:24.663 --> 00:12:29.673
When you think about the other layperson trustees, there's a lot more so the, the students are always in the minority, right?
00:12:29.673 --> 00:12:30.903
And their terms are obviously.
00:12:31.192 --> 00:12:33.832
More truncated because we want students to graduate.
00:12:33.832 --> 00:12:34.523
Like that's what we want.
00:12:34.523 --> 00:12:35.842
We don't want them to be there forever.
00:12:36.023 --> 00:12:44.692
We very seldom have folks who have higher education expertise on the board, which again is very strange thinking about, we want people to be able to govern higher education in the institution, right?
00:12:44.692 --> 00:12:50.482
And so we wouldn't want people, like if we thought about Nike, we wouldn't have folks who dunno about money, who maybe didn't know about shoe.
00:12:50.513 --> 00:12:51.413
You know, on the board.
00:12:51.682 --> 00:12:54.322
Um, but that's typically what we do have in higher education.
00:12:54.322 --> 00:13:04.102
People who understand finance, who understand business, who understand networking, but they don't necessarily understand the really unique nature of higher education, which is like nothing else, right?
00:13:04.102 --> 00:13:10.773
And so, um, when you talk about term limits, most boards do have term limits in certain ways.
00:13:10.773 --> 00:13:13.253
This is more so on the public, side, right?
00:13:13.253 --> 00:13:16.403
And so it's like a four year or six year term.
00:13:16.452 --> 00:13:21.732
And then you can renew that term sometimes that you could be on the board again.
00:13:21.732 --> 00:13:23.442
Sometimes they have it where you can't, or you have this.
00:13:23.442 --> 00:13:25.452
Have a stint where you're off and then you can come back.
00:13:25.452 --> 00:13:25.663
Right.
00:13:25.712 --> 00:13:29.852
But there are also some boards, especially at the private side that don't have term limits.
00:13:29.852 --> 00:13:31.052
So you could just be on there forever.
00:13:31.052 --> 00:13:33.423
Or you have boards where they have a hundred people on the board.
00:13:33.423 --> 00:13:35.913
It's like, how could you ever make a decision with a hundred people?
00:13:36.243 --> 00:13:36.543
Right?
00:13:36.543 --> 00:13:43.442
So we do have some sense of like a smaller board is better, around 20 people, less than 30 is better.
00:13:43.543 --> 00:13:45.253
than having a hundred people, right?
00:13:45.253 --> 00:13:49.452
When you have a more diverse board, and that's not just, about phenotype, right?
00:13:49.452 --> 00:13:51.582
It's not just by race, but it's also by gender.
00:13:51.582 --> 00:13:57.342
It's also by, socioeconomic status by geography, where people are, age is a big thing, profession.
00:13:57.342 --> 00:14:04.092
So there needs to be some diversity in that because all those folks are sort of bringing in that expertise into conversations which matter, right?
00:14:04.615 --> 00:14:14.336
What we often talk about when we do our research for governing boards is that you need to speak to your specific institution and where you are and what works and what is representative of that place.
00:14:14.395 --> 00:14:17.755
And I think that that's a really important thing because people often say, well, what's the best way?
00:14:17.755 --> 00:14:37.105
And it's like, there's no one best way because everything is different in all these different places or so many different institution types, whether you're in a system or you're not in a system, whether you're, at a Jesuit institution or a women institution or, you know, like you have all these different histories and things and so you have to really speak to your specific place and your nuance and your moment.
00:14:37.105 --> 00:14:37.826
So yeah,
00:14:38.375 --> 00:14:38.586
Okay.
00:14:38.586 --> 00:14:41.105
So can you maybe help us figure out what.
00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:44.669
An advisory role means in this context.
00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:47.179
I mean, how much power do boards have?
00:14:47.509 --> 00:14:55.519
Should we be thinking about them as pretty powerful or are we thinking of them as more of a rubber stamp?
00:14:55.610 --> 00:14:56.210
What.
00:14:56.705 --> 00:15:06.965
Is, uh, the sort of most useful and most accurate way to think about the kind of, uh, leadership that might be happening through boards of governance?
00:15:07.831 --> 00:15:10.171
Yeah, it's, it is an important question and I'm, I'm glad you asked.
00:15:10.171 --> 00:15:15.600
'cause I, I think this is one of the places where how Dr.
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:22.951
Rall and I come at this work starts to diverge, um, with a lot of our colleagues and other people's perspective.
00:15:23.541 --> 00:15:29.280
So w e, think of boards as very powerful, entities.
00:15:29.640 --> 00:15:36.697
They have a lot of latent power that is not always used and activated, but it is still there for their, their use.
00:15:36.791 --> 00:15:40.240
Um, and that comes back to that fiduciary role that, Dr.
00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:49.681
Rall was talking about earlier, which is ultimately the Board is responsible for the sustainability and longevity of the institution When the institution gets sued.
00:15:50.148 --> 00:15:52.227
The board members get sued, right?
00:15:52.227 --> 00:16:03.707
If you think of some of the most ho high profile cases like Jerry Sandusky at Penn State, it was individual trustees and the chancellor who were named in that, terrible situation, that terrible lawsuit.
00:16:04.067 --> 00:16:12.028
Um, even though there were lots of people involved, the athletics program, the people who were actually implicated at the end of the day were, the trustees of Penn State.
00:16:12.508 --> 00:16:23.077
So when we talk about it from a legal standpoint, a financial standpoint of like who is on the line at the institution, who's responsible for signing contracts, who's responsible for granting tenure?
00:16:23.498 --> 00:16:25.827
It is the trustees or the regents.
00:16:26.337 --> 00:16:31.567
They delegate that power to other entities, to work on behalf of them.
00:16:31.927 --> 00:16:39.217
But just like with any delegated power, if and when they want to assert that from their vantage point, they, they can.
00:16:39.817 --> 00:16:41.467
So tenure is a good example.
00:16:41.467 --> 00:16:50.337
So sure you can, um, rubber stamp the, the recommendation of the dean, the provost, the the president, and just kind of see it as a perfunctory step.
00:16:50.607 --> 00:16:56.437
But tenure is conferred by the institution and, and therefore it is conferred by the board.
00:16:56.798 --> 00:17:02.548
And so we take a very, expansive understanding of the power of the board.
00:17:02.998 --> 00:17:20.238
Um, it's one of the reasons, especially in, the rolling back of diversity, equity, inclusion, why a lot of our scholarship was like, Hey, if we don't get the boards on board, so to speak, with understanding and really appreciating diversity, equity, inclusion, and its complexity, all of this could easily be rolled back.
00:17:20.248 --> 00:17:23.397
And it was one of those things where it's like we were, unfortunately, right?
00:17:23.548 --> 00:17:28.907
And, and it's one of those things that we wish we kept being wrong, but, but some of our work, we couldn't get published.
00:17:28.907 --> 00:17:31.218
Like people just like the board doesn't matter to this.
00:17:31.218 --> 00:17:36.077
It's the faculty, it's the administrators who are responsible for advancing DEI, the board is removed.
00:17:36.528 --> 00:17:38.117
We were like, no, like.
00:17:38.627 --> 00:17:41.208
They, they can be really consequential.
00:17:41.538 --> 00:17:54.627
Um, and we want them to understand and really appreciate this work the nuances and the realities of diversity, equity, inclusion work for faculty, for an administrators, And our argument has always been how much benefit could they be if they did understand it?
00:17:54.867 --> 00:17:59.637
But now we're seeing the, the counter argument is how much damage they can do when they, when they don't.
00:17:59.637 --> 00:18:03.137
So I think that undergirds, why we take a really, um.
00:18:03.647 --> 00:18:04.218
Expansive.
00:18:04.218 --> 00:18:10.067
We, we always try to couch that though with the, the board needs to be in partnership with other stakeholders throughout the community.
00:18:10.397 --> 00:18:14.657
Um, you know, we don't want board members involved in the weeds of the institution.
00:18:14.657 --> 00:18:21.758
We don't want the board, asserting itself in ways, um, that are harmful to faculty, staff, and students.
00:18:22.117 --> 00:18:22.238
Staff.
00:18:22.268 --> 00:18:30.488
We want a healthy consensual partnership where the board provides its strengths to the institution and all the other constituents and stakeholders provide its strengths.
00:18:30.488 --> 00:18:38.077
in this really synergistic way when everybody understands their role, has appreciation for what other people are doing across the university.
00:18:38.077 --> 00:18:41.438
People have appreciation for what the board can do and it's healthy.
00:18:41.768 --> 00:18:44.347
Uh, but we always say, we always get asked like, who's doing that well?
00:18:44.347 --> 00:18:45.728
And we're like, nobody obviously.
00:18:45.728 --> 00:18:50.627
Like, if there were boards who were doing this well, it would be much more evident, but.
00:18:51.290 --> 00:19:02.750
That balance is really hard to, to strike where boards are playing their fiduciary role, understand their responsibility, delegated well, but are not so aloof that they aren't disengaged.
00:19:02.750 --> 00:19:15.634
And then when they wanna get engaged, and again, DEI is such a a, an unfortunate example where they were aloof, they were disengaged, and then they got activated and they got activated on terms that have been really harmful to a lot of institutions and a, and a lot of constituents.
00:19:15.638 --> 00:19:26.064
And, you actually want the board to understand and be involved and understand their unique role What is the appropriate and consensual role for the board to play with other partners that are involved.
00:19:26.604 --> 00:19:32.574
Knowing that they do have a lot of latent power and they can exert it whenever they want to exert it as a collective.
00:19:32.874 --> 00:19:51.384
And so instead of just shunning them and thinking that they're just, you know, donors or people who are aloof, who only show up on campus six, six a year actually appreciating the, the roles that they have and the work that they can do, and bringing them in closer as partners, helping educate them, helping them see the value of the different work or the different concepts that we hold dearly.
00:19:51.713 --> 00:20:06.384
And making sure that they can also be defenders and advocates and proponents of some of the things that we think make higher education unique instead of having hostility towards it'cause they don't understand it or they don't see it's value add or the case hasn't been made with them involved.
00:20:06.384 --> 00:20:07.493
It's just been made to them.
00:20:07.804 --> 00:20:12.943
and we're seeing the fruits of, the wrong strategy with board members over their, over the last decade.
00:20:13.943 --> 00:20:21.624
Yeah, I, I mean, Without boards, no improvements or changes that are great, can be maximized or will be sustained.
00:20:21.713 --> 00:20:22.013
Right.
00:20:22.013 --> 00:20:26.884
It's sort of like they are part of this team and like, so for so long, They took a more passive role.
00:20:26.884 --> 00:20:40.233
But I think in recent years, last decade when we saw not only the Sandusky scandal, but the admission scandal, you know, uh, varsity blues and all these different places when boards were then sprung into the limelight and we're like, well, what, what are these boards doing?
00:20:40.233 --> 00:20:42.723
And Nicole Hannah Jones, tenure, tenure denial.
00:20:42.723 --> 00:20:42.903
Right?
00:20:42.903 --> 00:20:44.344
All these different things we saw like.
00:20:44.778 --> 00:20:45.138
Huh?
00:20:45.169 --> 00:20:53.209
They, they do have a role to play And you can think of them, I think as, as you can think of any role, like, um, do parents really matter?
00:20:53.209 --> 00:20:53.898
Teachers really matter.
00:20:53.898 --> 00:20:56.898
The really great ones do and the really bad ones do as well, right?
00:20:56.898 --> 00:20:59.269
you can sort of coast and it'll be fine.
00:20:59.269 --> 00:21:02.088
If nothing bad happens to your institution, great board, right?
00:21:02.088 --> 00:21:03.679
But if something hits a fan, it's really bad.
00:21:03.679 --> 00:21:06.409
It's like, if you're not great board members, then we're in a problem, right?
00:21:06.459 --> 00:21:15.128
I don't know that boards think of themselves in that way, but I think that that's sort of the best analogy I can get is sort of like the people who are more intentional in their roles, they're great, right?
00:21:15.128 --> 00:21:19.628
Like, I'm a mom of four, and so it's like I could sit here and let my kids play iPad all the time, right?
00:21:20.159 --> 00:21:21.388
And they'd probably be fine.
00:21:21.388 --> 00:21:23.669
They'd grow up, they'd grow, you know, and do all these different things.
00:21:23.669 --> 00:21:27.449
But will they have all the experiences they need to have, will they be able to do all these different things?
00:21:27.449 --> 00:21:34.709
And I think boards of that are in a, in a really critical position to maybe make sure that institutions are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing.
00:21:34.709 --> 00:21:36.269
They're holding other folks accountable.
00:21:36.598 --> 00:21:37.828
Demetri and I talk a lot about.
00:21:37.979 --> 00:21:39.298
Asking those pivotal questions.
00:21:39.298 --> 00:21:41.939
'cause that's the number one sort of tool, board tab.
00:21:41.939 --> 00:21:48.798
Are they asking the right questions of the right people at the right time to make sure folks are being accountable and they're knowing that someone is watching?
00:21:48.798 --> 00:21:48.979
Right?
00:21:49.038 --> 00:21:51.949
This is when a lot of stuff goes awry when folks don't think that anyone is watching.
00:21:51.949 --> 00:21:51.963
And then so.
00:21:52.294 --> 00:21:55.233
Folks are sort of just going along But there is a role they have to play.
00:21:55.413 --> 00:21:57.634
There is intentionality that has to go with that.
00:21:57.634 --> 00:21:59.074
There is work.
00:21:59.074 --> 00:22:03.304
and we talk about, you know, is your board a barrier to what's happening on campus?
00:22:03.334 --> 00:22:04.413
Is your board an inhibitor?
00:22:04.413 --> 00:22:04.743
Right?
00:22:04.743 --> 00:22:06.903
Are you sort of a, a bystander?
00:22:07.023 --> 00:22:09.993
Are you a catalyzer to some of these things or are you an initiator?
00:22:09.993 --> 00:22:13.923
And so people often think of boards are supposed to be at this high level, which they are.
00:22:13.923 --> 00:22:17.193
They're not on the day-to-day on the, the, the street level, right?
00:22:17.193 --> 00:22:17.763
That sort of thing.
00:22:17.763 --> 00:22:25.804
You know, and we talked earlier about students, I've often found the students are some of the most engaged board members because they often feel like they have this thing to prove because they're junior to a lot of these folks.
00:22:25.804 --> 00:22:27.334
They don't have these great accolades.
00:22:27.394 --> 00:22:30.064
And so they're talking about their reading, their board book and advance.
00:22:30.064 --> 00:22:31.534
People are looking to them to respond.
00:22:31.534 --> 00:22:35.763
So you could passively go through the role, but you can also be very great at the role, right.
00:22:35.763 --> 00:22:39.364
And have people know that you're, you're about the business, uh, of the board.
00:22:39.364 --> 00:22:43.114
And so I think when you ask the question of how powerful are they, um.
00:22:43.574 --> 00:22:44.534
Very powerful.
00:22:44.773 --> 00:22:48.013
And then sometimes you don't know until they flex, right?
00:22:48.013 --> 00:22:53.983
Like, but if someone can deny tenure and, and change the trajectory of, of a person's career, that's pretty powerful.
00:22:53.983 --> 00:22:59.683
If someone is determining who's gonna be the next chancellor or president or the face of an institution, that's pretty powerful.
00:22:59.683 --> 00:23:04.963
If someone can determine whether or not we're gonna go bankrupt or stay in the black, that I'd say that's pretty powerful.
00:23:04.963 --> 00:23:08.084
We have board members that are deciding, which, uh.
00:23:08.153 --> 00:23:10.854
Conference people are going into, and for all the sports lovers, right?
00:23:10.854 --> 00:23:16.074
Like if you're gonna go from the Pac 12 to the A, c, c, good, bad, or ugly, right?
00:23:16.074 --> 00:23:18.114
Like, that is determined by the board.
00:23:18.114 --> 00:23:19.193
That's a board decision.
00:23:19.193 --> 00:23:20.723
These things matter, right?
00:23:20.723 --> 00:23:28.604
Like if you think about, um, are we gonna remove buildings or change the names of buildings because they, they carry things from slavery that's a board decision.
00:23:28.604 --> 00:23:34.394
And so when people say boards don't matter as much, like obviously you can hear it in my voice, I, I don't understand what they're thinking about.
00:23:34.394 --> 00:23:36.314
It's because they don't understand how universities work.
00:23:36.314 --> 00:23:37.933
And I do think that that's a disservice.
00:23:37.993 --> 00:23:39.104
And I, I, you know, Dr.
00:23:39.104 --> 00:23:39.794
Morgan talked about that.
00:23:40.064 --> 00:23:43.153
We have to know more about what all the different parts are supposed to do.
00:23:43.153 --> 00:23:45.824
Like the left needs know what the right hand is supposed to be doing.
00:23:45.854 --> 00:23:48.314
And oftentimes boards are not that, right?
00:23:48.314 --> 00:23:50.773
The people don't know the power in which they wield.
00:23:51.054 --> 00:23:53.213
also boards don't even understand the gravity of.
00:23:53.278 --> 00:24:06.749
Of what they have to do because they sort of just model what the person next to them is doing, because there's also very little board orientation and training, which I think is also problematic when we think about these things because they have to learn what the institution is.
00:24:06.749 --> 00:24:08.159
They have to learn what they're supposed to do.
00:24:08.159 --> 00:24:09.778
They have to learn about how their votes are.
00:24:09.959 --> 00:24:10.183
Dr.
00:24:10.183 --> 00:24:22.739
Morgan talked about committees, but then there's also sort of like the closed sessions, and so there's open sessions and closed sessions, and so there's deals that are happening there, or when they're having coffee or when they're on the golf course, like there's so much nuance to this role.
00:24:22.739 --> 00:24:25.618
And so I think it's, it's a simple answer to your question.
00:24:25.618 --> 00:24:27.118
Yes, boards are very powerful.
00:24:27.358 --> 00:24:31.108
Um, and it just depends on how they implement that power.
00:24:31.682 --> 00:24:41.942
This terminology of latent power, I think is so incredibly useful to me to help visualize sort of the power of, uh, boards of governance rate.
00:24:42.272 --> 00:24:54.617
Um, I'm kind of thinking about, you know, how the vice president approving the election results is technically a rubber stamp, but the withholding of that rubber stamp actually results in a constitutional crisis, right?
00:24:54.617 --> 00:25:02.208
So it's kind of this latent power that we don't really have to think about until we really, really have to think about it.
00:25:02.208 --> 00:25:02.597
Right.
00:25:04.593 --> 00:25:05.012
Okay.
00:25:05.063 --> 00:25:07.643
So my next question is about communication.
00:25:07.883 --> 00:25:14.992
I'm thinking about the folks who are on these boards not having a background in higher education, right?
00:25:14.992 --> 00:25:23.147
I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of these folks, uh, don't have higher education expertise, and in fact, that's why they're selected, right?
00:25:23.407 --> 00:25:25.583
To bring that outsider perspective.
00:25:25.853 --> 00:25:29.063
But at the same time, I would hope that their.
00:25:29.303 --> 00:25:31.702
doing the work to sort of inform themselves.
00:25:31.883 --> 00:25:42.492
And, um, at the same time, I imagine they also have a day job and are running a business or representing a constituency and they have pretty full plates, right?
00:25:42.702 --> 00:25:50.952
They might not have the kind of time that we would hope for them to have to really become experts in the thing that they're doing.
00:25:52.087 --> 00:25:58.657
So how does the average board member go about becoming informed?
00:25:59.048 --> 00:26:12.097
Also since most of our listeners are, you know, academic workers where students, faculty, staff at universities, uh, it seems like it's pretty important for us to understand how to communicate our needs and.
00:26:12.153 --> 00:26:17.522
Our wants and our visions for what higher education should be to the board.
00:26:17.762 --> 00:26:20.343
What are some good ways of doing that?
00:26:21.113 --> 00:26:21.292
Yeah.
00:26:21.292 --> 00:26:22.397
I I love this question.
00:26:22.397 --> 00:26:47.818
This is, an existential question that as academic laborers and as the higher ed community, we need to really innovate and rethink, So the, the technical answer is some public boards, uh, will have kind of open comment time, similar to, um, how a town hall might, might operate, or, where, you know, you get two minutes of, of time, you have to sort of pre-register and you can share your, your information.
00:26:48.209 --> 00:26:49.858
Um, but it's very one way, right?
00:26:49.888 --> 00:26:56.108
So like Demetri signs up, he says like, Hey, I think there should be, better food in the dining hall.
00:26:56.298 --> 00:26:59.509
please don't renew the contract with, uh, Chartwells.
00:26:59.818 --> 00:27:01.019
and the board, listens.
00:27:01.078 --> 00:27:03.838
They might ask questions very, very rarely do they.
00:27:04.199 --> 00:27:06.058
Um, but that is one form.
00:27:06.628 --> 00:27:08.759
Others will have kind of open comments.
00:27:08.788 --> 00:27:17.199
Some institutions have the board members', um, emails, so there's kind of some of the typical ways that we've come to interact with public officials board.
00:27:17.199 --> 00:27:22.833
Some boards have those mechanisms available to the campus community, um, as well.
00:27:23.163 --> 00:27:28.773
But I would say that more often than not, it's gonna be one way asynchronous communication.
00:27:29.003 --> 00:27:48.257
some of the best things that I've seen in my research are actually from student reporters who will do kind of a summary after a board, uh, meeting and, and publish something in the campus newspaper of Sometimes boards themselves will put out summaries of, of what they've done that I've seen over the years, but it's, it's very.
00:27:48.601 --> 00:27:52.560
Hodgepodge, there's no kind of systematic way of communicating.
00:27:52.891 --> 00:27:57.881
And it gets even harder once you go into the private school realm, They're, they're volunteers.
00:27:57.881 --> 00:27:59.711
We always remind people they're not getting paid.
00:28:00.191 --> 00:28:01.901
Some places they are elected.
00:28:01.951 --> 00:28:03.570
But in most places, they're, they're not.
00:28:03.570 --> 00:28:05.010
So what is that mechanism?
00:28:05.010 --> 00:28:05.851
What should that look like?
00:28:05.851 --> 00:28:09.330
What are the, what are the experiments that we think are working well?
00:28:09.691 --> 00:28:18.990
Um, and, and the question you're asking, I think is one that we need to be asking more and then trying out different things to see, does this help open up our understanding of board members?
00:28:19.211 --> 00:28:26.290
does it help board members feel a responsibility to communicate and to share what's, what's going on in more transparent ways?
00:28:26.530 --> 00:28:32.931
But I think often people see nothing and then just assume that the nefarious board members, you know, making decisions on our behalf.
00:28:33.250 --> 00:28:44.201
and of course some of that happens, but I think more often than not, it's just not a muscle we've exercised on either side, like of people wanting to share and engage with the board and of board members wanting to communicate out.
00:28:44.201 --> 00:28:46.990
And that's why I think there's a, a lot of room for, for innovation.
00:28:47.381 --> 00:28:51.090
And then the other thing I'll say, cause it's related, is that, uh, Dr.
00:28:51.090 --> 00:28:51.840
Rall mentioned this.
00:28:52.840 --> 00:29:07.426
What we know about board members is that they have, a spectrum of, of an orientation they're selected or appointed or elected, and then they go through, you know, for some people it's like a couple of emails that say, Hey, you're on the board now.
00:29:07.426 --> 00:29:09.826
Make sure you fill out your conflict of interest forms.
00:29:10.247 --> 00:29:12.406
And now that's the extent of their training.
00:29:12.737 --> 00:29:19.186
Um, so there is no communication training, there is no expectation of how they're interrelating with the campus community.
00:29:19.547 --> 00:29:27.836
Um, and then in terms of ongoing training and development, that is very, um, at their own, interest of the, the board member.
00:29:27.836 --> 00:29:30.866
So there's lots of board members who are like, I actually want to be really good at this.
00:29:30.866 --> 00:29:37.017
I care about this institution either because I went there or because it's in my community, uh, and I want to be good at this.
00:29:37.017 --> 00:29:37.227
And so.
00:29:37.540 --> 00:29:38.951
They take it up on themselves.
00:29:39.340 --> 00:29:43.631
Uh, but the, the other kind of big point is that boards have to act as a collective.
00:29:43.631 --> 00:29:54.871
So, even if you have one really good board member or a few that are really interested in communicating well and want to be out there, they can't speak for the board unless the board fully signs off on that.
00:29:54.871 --> 00:30:08.560
And so it also is stifling a little bit, even when you have board members who do wanna be a little bit more engaged, they have to be really careful that they're not, suggesting that what they're saying or thinking is on behalf of the board, because that's a position that the institution is then taking.
00:30:08.951 --> 00:30:10.060
So they have to be really careful.
00:30:10.060 --> 00:30:16.631
So it also serves as a stifling, again, not necessarily for nefarious reasons, but just like mechanically and logistically.
00:30:16.976 --> 00:30:21.895
How do I communicate as an individual trustee when what we're supposed to be doing is as a collective?
00:30:22.175 --> 00:30:32.986
and that creates, again, hesitation to say something or to be more engaged, um, because you're kind of operating a whole, imagine if Congress people couldn't say anything unless everybody in Congress agreed with it.
00:30:33.016 --> 00:30:34.306
Fox News would be out of business.
00:30:34.951 --> 00:30:38.192
But, you know, that's how a lot of board members approach their work.
00:30:38.192 --> 00:30:41.852
Like, I can't say anything as an individual, I have to speak on behalf of the board.
00:30:42.152 --> 00:30:44.342
Um, and that's usually done through the board chair.
00:30:44.342 --> 00:30:46.531
and so it, it doesn't allow for as much touch points.
00:30:47.531 --> 00:30:54.567
And, and it's really hard at a lot of institutions, like if you try to Google contact information, you, you can't find it for a lot of board members sometimes.
00:30:54.777 --> 00:30:58.616
I, I have seen in the last five years or so where they're more open facing.
00:30:58.616 --> 00:31:02.696
Like you can get a picture now, maybe an email or at least says, go to the board secretary.
00:31:02.696 --> 00:31:07.146
But a decade ago it was really hard to even find like, who are, who's on the board.
00:31:07.146 --> 00:31:07.926
it was very hard.
00:31:07.926 --> 00:31:13.596
And I think that there's intentionality in that because again, very important folks and they, there is some protective factors of that.
00:31:13.596 --> 00:31:17.886
But, thinking about what's the best way for boards to receive information?
00:31:17.886 --> 00:31:20.391
And there is no great way, right?
00:31:20.391 --> 00:31:25.431
Like there are some board members looking at TikTok, believe it or not, to try to understand what's happening with higher education.
00:31:25.770 --> 00:31:28.201
So this is something we're wrestling with with our project as well.
00:31:28.201 --> 00:31:28.560
It's like.
00:31:28.915 --> 00:31:30.056
Is it a podcast?
00:31:30.115 --> 00:31:31.256
Is it a one pager?
00:31:31.316 --> 00:31:32.516
Is it this weekly briefing?
00:31:32.516 --> 00:31:36.046
Like, what are the easiest ways for folks to internalize some information, right?
00:31:36.046 --> 00:31:39.288
And It's hard to, pinpoint one great way.
00:31:39.288 --> 00:31:59.328
And I, I think that's something that we do need to kind of focus on more is, is what is the best way to help folks who have a job, who meet episodically, who really do want the best for the institutions, who don't have the expertise, who come from all walks of life to really understand, here's what you need to know, here's how we go forth, and that sort of thing.
00:31:59.618 --> 00:32:05.723
And it's even more complicated in today's times when folks are drinking out of a literal fire hose, right?
00:32:05.723 --> 00:32:08.003
Sometimes because the world is on fire.
00:32:08.334 --> 00:32:23.723
And then they're also trying to think about long-term planning, Like it's hard to be a board member because you have to be both doing the sprint and thinking about the marathon at the same time You have to necessarily think about every decision I make today is gonna impact the decisions that are gonna happen decades from now, right?
00:32:23.723 --> 00:32:28.763
And so I need to make sure that we are on, you know, making sound decisions on behalf of the institution.
00:32:29.683 --> 00:32:55.413
So I did want to ask you, I think this is kind of what the whole interview has been building up to, because this is a theme that's come up in many episodes that we've recorded so far in many conversations that we've had is how many of us are feeling, you know, not necessarily lost individually, but definitely a float institutionally because people in leadership roles seem not to be taking on the onus of leadership.
00:32:56.669 --> 00:33:12.328
So I do wanna make sure I ask, What that move towards courageous leadership might look like in this moment, and how might we, as academic workers help our board members to be more courageous and be more principled in their actions as board members?
00:33:12.429 --> 00:33:20.088
So courageous leadership right now is just what leadership, good leadership has always been, but now like the outside world makes it seem like it's not.
00:33:20.088 --> 00:33:22.398
So for board members, it's really sustain the course.
00:33:22.459 --> 00:33:23.388
Stick to the mission.
00:33:23.388 --> 00:33:29.239
If your mission has been about access, diversity, belonging, you need to do that work, right?
00:33:29.239 --> 00:33:32.608
Just because people are now saying that it's not popular but that's what your mission is like.
00:33:32.638 --> 00:33:34.229
That's literally your job, right?
00:33:34.229 --> 00:33:37.439
It's, it's made me, it's more challenging because of the circumstances.
00:33:37.439 --> 00:33:37.588
Right.
00:33:37.588 --> 00:33:39.058
But their job has remained their job.
00:33:39.179 --> 00:33:46.108
And so these fiduciary duties and roles and responsibilities that the board has had, have always been, those duties have always been those things.
00:33:46.108 --> 00:33:47.038
And so I think it's just.
00:33:47.348 --> 00:33:48.729
Do your job right?
00:33:49.162 --> 00:33:52.521
Stanley Fish has this book we had to read when I was in the PhD program.
00:33:52.521 --> 00:33:53.872
It's like, save the world in your own time.
00:33:53.872 --> 00:33:57.832
But it's like, do your job, don't let anyone else do your job and don't do it anyone else's job.
00:33:57.832 --> 00:34:05.951
So boards have to do their job and they can't allow politics, politicians or anyone else to do their job and try to do it for them, right?
00:34:05.951 --> 00:34:09.402
And so that in of itself is courageous leadership right now.
00:34:09.402 --> 00:34:12.552
That's courageous governance right now is simply staying the course.
00:34:12.552 --> 00:34:14.771
we're not asking boards to do anything that's illegal.
00:34:14.771 --> 00:34:18.222
We're not asking them to do anything that's outside of their job we're asking them to do.
00:34:18.567 --> 00:34:19.916
What they've been tasked to do.
00:34:19.916 --> 00:34:22.976
Nothing really legal has happened to higher education, right?
00:34:22.976 --> 00:34:27.327
Like these changes that people are, are thinking that are gonna make, we, we can't be scared, right?
00:34:27.327 --> 00:34:29.577
Like, we've talked about this in some of the materials that we've put out.
00:34:29.577 --> 00:34:35.666
It's like, unless there's a legal act that's made to tell you you have to change, don't make changes.
00:34:35.996 --> 00:34:38.336
What is the difference between how you were doing business?
00:34:38.336 --> 00:34:41.246
Now we're in June, so let's say seven months ago.
00:34:41.516 --> 00:34:47.286
Have y'all completely changed where you're not the same institution where now you need to be doing business differently than you were before.
00:34:47.347 --> 00:34:50.737
And most times folks will like, will say no, it's just a different person in office.
00:34:50.737 --> 00:34:52.086
And so now we're afraid, right?
00:34:52.451 --> 00:35:02.050
We need to do better as leaders to help people understand that if the funding gets cut, regardless of what your political affiliation is, that could also mean impacts on your healthcare.
00:35:02.050 --> 00:35:04.811
That could mean impacts on your, um, business, right?
00:35:04.811 --> 00:35:06.161
Like what's happening in your communities.
00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:10.900
Because a lot of our institutions also serve our regions, or especially our regional institutions, right?
00:35:10.900 --> 00:35:17.025
Like people who are getting funded and who are going to get these degrees are then coming right back into the communities and working in that particular area.
00:35:17.076 --> 00:35:26.246
I think higher education in general and leaders in general need to do a better job of helping everyone, not just people who are going to higher education Understand that they too benefit from higher education.
00:35:26.295 --> 00:35:35.465
College may not be for, for everyone, but you do benefit from what's happening at these institutions, especially the R one institutions, right, that are producing research that are looking for cures to cancer.
00:35:35.646 --> 00:35:42.755
You know, I, I jokingly talk about my campus at uc, Riverside, there wouldn't be a cutie that everyone knows what a little cutie, the orange cutie is without UCR, right?
00:35:42.755 --> 00:35:44.615
And think about places that are doing avocado.
00:35:44.675 --> 00:35:45.695
Everyone eats these things.
00:35:45.695 --> 00:35:47.945
So it's not a just a higher ed problem.
00:35:47.945 --> 00:35:49.536
It's a society problem, right?
00:35:49.585 --> 00:35:58.106
We have to think about that collectivity more and more if we wanna be considered courageous, because it's harder to kind of pluck all of us off if we're unified and if we're together.
00:35:58.458 --> 00:36:05.208
I've really been disappointed in institutions that are changing graduation ceremonies that you can't have a black grad or rasa grad, anymore.
00:36:05.208 --> 00:36:06.318
And it's like, well, what is it?
00:36:06.438 --> 00:36:07.637
HARM folks, right?
00:36:08.137 --> 00:36:11.978
courageous leadership is thinking about what is actually legal, what isn't?
00:36:11.978 --> 00:36:16.148
What are we just doing because we're afraid and we're anticipating, This repressive legalism,
00:36:16.648 --> 00:36:17.068
Yeah.
00:36:17.068 --> 00:36:21.648
And, uh, I'll just add that the project we've been referring to, so, uh, Dr.
00:36:21.648 --> 00:36:41.047
All and I, um, in this past year, um, launched the Center for Strategic and Inclusive Governance, which is really focused on becoming a go-to resource and hub for board members and those that work with them, board professionals, uh, senior leaders, and based on everything that Dr.
00:36:41.047 --> 00:36:42.217
Rall just mentioned.
00:36:42.623 --> 00:36:53.483
One of the things that has become really clear to us that not that many people will always say out loud is, is that one, this work is really hard and complex.
00:36:53.532 --> 00:37:00.012
and that there are often, gaps in understanding or information about how to do those things.
00:37:00.583 --> 00:37:08.382
We start from the premise that a board member doesn't understand or know what academic freedom is, and we try to make the affirmative case to say, here is this.
00:37:08.728 --> 00:37:18.777
This principle that we think is really important, here's what it means from your perspective as a board member and doing some of what we call the translational work to say, here are these values, here are these things.
00:37:19.137 --> 00:37:22.867
How do we translate it for a board member to help them understand What is it?
00:37:23.447 --> 00:37:24.737
why do people care about it?
00:37:24.737 --> 00:37:25.668
Why does it matter?
00:37:26.027 --> 00:37:34.878
And what role can the board member play in, in advancing or potentially harming this, this work on, on a given college campus?
00:37:35.277 --> 00:37:48.838
our project is really designed to take up that issue and start to fill some of these gaps, some of, of the work that we're pointing to, but also trying to point to other really great work that's out there, um, that is tackling these issues and helping board members.
00:37:49.088 --> 00:37:51.847
We talk a lot about their information appetite, right?
00:37:51.847 --> 00:37:54.697
Like what are they taking in about higher ed?
00:37:54.918 --> 00:37:55.697
and is it healthy?
00:37:55.697 --> 00:37:56.597
Is it balanced?
00:37:56.597 --> 00:38:01.498
Is it, the types of things that we think should be in front of them that they should be consuming?
00:38:01.807 --> 00:38:04.208
that helps them make be better decision makers.
00:38:04.507 --> 00:38:11.318
And knowing that even as somebody that's in higher ed that, you know, eats drinks and sleeps higher ed, it's overwhelming for me.
00:38:11.648 --> 00:38:17.858
How much more is it gonna be overwhelming for somebody who, again, is well intentioned but isn't thinking about this all the time?
00:38:17.858 --> 00:38:19.717
So how can we do some of that translational work?
00:38:19.717 --> 00:38:29.007
How can we point them to resources, to people, to thinkers, that are really activating, you know, and pushing higher ed forward in different ways and getting that information to them.
00:38:29.367 --> 00:38:36.777
And, and we think that's really important because if you think it's missing, we think the same sort of tired information gets circulated and translated of how we should do this.
00:38:36.777 --> 00:38:37.978
And we're seeing it right now, right?
00:38:37.978 --> 00:38:39.177
Like everybody should just kind of.
00:38:39.733 --> 00:38:43.177
Hide and don't say anything and hope that the administration doesn't pick on you.
00:38:43.208 --> 00:38:46.297
That's like the playbook that's being passed around right now.
00:38:46.302 --> 00:38:50.318
and it's not serving, all institutions Well, and, and in the same way.
00:38:50.318 --> 00:39:01.947
So how do we get different ideas out there of different ways that, this can be approached and normalize it as like, hey, there are other ways of approaching governance issues than the kind of same old, tired playbooks that we've seen.
00:39:02.288 --> 00:39:08.338
And, you know, one of the things that we always try to honor is that a lot of the critiques of higher ed are based in truth, right?
00:39:08.338 --> 00:39:14.998
Like if you talk to most people on campus, nobody was, a hundred percent happy with how diversity, equity, and inclusion was playing out.
00:39:14.998 --> 00:39:19.858
So there's some kernel of truths, but where we differ is on what we do next after that, right?
00:39:19.858 --> 00:39:23.577
Some people say throw it away, and other people say no, like radically reform it.
00:39:23.577 --> 00:39:25.918
And other people say no, like systematically reform it.
00:39:26.248 --> 00:39:29.427
That's a conversation that the board should be shepherding, that they should say.
00:39:29.427 --> 00:39:34.103
Like, yeah, what are the, the different ways of understanding and thinking about this and going.
00:39:34.992 --> 00:39:41.233
In one direction in imposing it, because that's what people outside of the institution are, are saying is, is not helpful.
00:39:41.233 --> 00:39:45.643
That's not playing that, that kind of long-term sustaining role that board should play.
00:39:45.882 --> 00:39:54.402
But having a robust and rigorous sort of thoughtful way of thinking about what is our gonna be, our approach and strategy to academic freedom to share governance.
00:39:54.643 --> 00:39:59.483
What does our relationship look like with our faculty senate and is it serving us well in this moment?
00:39:59.842 --> 00:40:02.063
Those are questions that the board should be asking.
00:40:02.063 --> 00:40:06.532
And so we're trying to help them understand that there are other ways of approaching this.
00:40:06.583 --> 00:40:17.152
they've yet to be tried out at the scale and level, but just because they're, they're not, executed yet doesn't mean that they can't lead to really helpful and productive alternatives for institutions.
00:40:17.152 --> 00:40:21.472
And so we're, we're inviting people into that conversation with us and in other.
00:40:21.717 --> 00:40:35.887
groups that are also trying to push people to say like, there's other ways that we can be navigating, through this and, and, but we need to have the courage and, and also the imagination that there are other ways that to be approaching this thing, um, kind of the same old tire playbooks.
00:40:36.887 --> 00:40:44.407
And now that I know that, trustees are getting their news from TikTok, I look forward to seeing you all there, uh, educating us.
00:40:45.407 --> 00:40:49.072
Um, yeah, we had someone who was like, y'all need to make a TikTok, and I was like, oh my gosh.
00:40:49.072 --> 00:40:50.032
Like this is where we are.
00:40:50.032 --> 00:40:59.242
But I mean, to our point, and this is why we made this website, is sort of, we need to have a place where we can sort of funnel all sorts of things and kind of meet people where they are.
00:40:59.242 --> 00:41:02.603
And if someone else has a really cool TikTok, we could post it on there as well.
00:41:02.603 --> 00:41:08.452
We sort of see our site as a starting point to kind of let people go down the rabbit hole however far they want to go.
00:41:08.452 --> 00:41:10.492
But there hasn't been a place like that.
00:41:10.492 --> 00:41:14.963
There hasn't been something like that, that has been open access where people can sort of see all different.
00:41:15.246 --> 00:41:23.277
Kinds of approaches to this, whether it's a scholarly article or a magazine article or just a report or, or whatever the case may be.
00:41:23.277 --> 00:41:29.456
So we're really excited about it and know it's like when we launch it it's not gonna be exhaustive, but we're gonna continue to build it.
00:41:29.456 --> 00:41:31.916
And we are also, what's cool is that we're partner with other folks.
00:41:31.916 --> 00:41:34.407
It's like, send us something that you would say, right?
00:41:34.407 --> 00:41:35.726
Like, and so that's then there.
00:41:35.726 --> 00:41:46.737
And so I think that that collaborative nature is something that we think is important Our big thing is we want folks to know more about boards and, and how boards work and how universities work.
00:41:47.036 --> 00:41:50.007
And so I think we wanna encourage folks to be curious.
00:41:50.007 --> 00:41:53.697
'cause often folks think like they don't need to know about how universities work.
00:41:54.297 --> 00:41:56.157
But they do, and, and it matters.
00:41:56.157 --> 00:42:05.036
Like Demetri and I both teach courses about governance and different things, and I, I'm always surprised by how many people after the course who started out knowing nothing after the course of like.
00:42:05.512 --> 00:42:06.711
I'm gonna ask about this.
00:42:06.711 --> 00:42:13.342
I've had students who are saying they've tried to be the student region for our system after that because they're like, I need a voice and I need to do these different things.
00:42:13.342 --> 00:42:20.362
And so I think folks think it's not a topic, um, that they wanna know or need to know about, or that it might be boring or that sort of thing.
00:42:20.362 --> 00:42:26.931
But I, I just encourage them to know how interesting it is and how connected it is to so many things that are happening on campus.
00:42:26.931 --> 00:42:38.331
When you talked about, you know, protests or free speech, uh, how professors get tenure, you know, all these things that matter and are happening at our campuses, there's a connection back to the board.
00:42:38.331 --> 00:42:47.722
And so I, I, I just really want to just say, encourage people, whether it's through our site or other sites, really try to have an understanding of, of how institutions work.
00:42:47.722 --> 00:42:48.831
I think that's really important.
00:42:49.831 --> 00:42:50.222
Perfect.
00:42:51.222 --> 00:42:51.641
Alright.
00:42:51.641 --> 00:42:52.782
Thank you all so much.
00:42:52.831 --> 00:42:57.092
So that's it for our conversation with Raquel Rawl and Demetri Martin.
00:42:57.811 --> 00:43:03.351
The web resource they spoke about That's Strategic inclusive governance.org.
00:43:04.251 --> 00:43:07.072
They've also shared a short description that I'll read now.
00:43:07.132 --> 00:43:13.282
CSIG equips higher education boards and leaders with research informed tools for mission center decision making.
00:43:14.867 --> 00:43:25.697
It's training programs, open access, resource hub, and rapid response guides, bridge scholarship and practice helping institutions navigate challenges and advance student success.
00:43:26.416 --> 00:43:37.427
And that website one more time is strategic inclusive governance.org, and you'll find a link to it in our show notes today, just in case you're not a hundred percent sure on how to spell governance.
00:43:38.382 --> 00:43:39.581
I do hope you check it out.
00:43:39.581 --> 00:43:44.981
I hope you're feeling curious about the members of your own board and that you're inspired to look into them a bit more.
00:43:45.552 --> 00:43:52.001
Another wonderful resource that I point students to when they're wanting to power Map our institutions is little cis.org.
00:43:52.541 --> 00:44:00.552
That's an open source database that tracks who knows who, so it can be a good way to learn more about your board members and where their interests lie.
00:44:01.152 --> 00:44:02.922
That's little sis.org.
00:44:03.192 --> 00:44:04.601
It's the opposite of Big Brother.
00:44:05.561 --> 00:44:08.322
And so I guess that's the homework I'm gonna leave you with this month.
00:44:08.771 --> 00:44:15.461
Get curious about your boards and go learn more about them at Little SIS and strategic inclusive governance.org.
00:44:16.661 --> 00:44:20.981
Thanks for listening to AAUP Presents Academic Freedom on the line with me, Vineeta Singh.
