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Welcome to the With All Your Mind Podcast.
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This podcast exists as a resource and a part of the ministry at Commonplace Church, our mental health ministry.
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If you'd like to learn more about the church or about the ministry itself, visit up to commonplacechurch.org.
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Hope you enjoyed this conversation.
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Hello, and welcome back to With All Your Mind.
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I'm Walter F.
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Rodriguez, and with me are my co-hosts, Dr.
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Mark McNear and Pastor Kirk Ruprecht.
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Hello.
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How are you?
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That's awesome.
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Hey, uh, should we talk real quick about missing the word of the day?
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The word of the day is cogitating.
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Which is a new word Walter introduced.
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Yeah, yeah.
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To think deeply into it.
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Yes.
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No, we were uh I know we started the podcast a week ago, but we started back up the season.
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We're like, yo, we're gonna be, you know, so consistent.
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And and uh I I own the fact that uh I got really sick last week and so we did not get the podcast to be consistent.
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So just wanted to apologize to those listeners who are on the edge.
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They're like, they said they would do it, and then here's the paradox though.
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If you're consistently inconsistent, you're still consistent about that, right?
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So that's a great way to look at it.
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So so can I add something to that?
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What did he say?
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You were what?
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What did I say?
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You were he was sick.
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Oh, I was ill.
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You were much more than that.
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Yeah, death was the most.
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We walked in and you looked in.
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Yes, it is the most of crack.
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I was in the process of writing my will.
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We're glad you're here with us now on this.
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I think it should be Mark.
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Mark is a successful podcaster.
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Never mind.
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Sorry, Walter.
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No worries.
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But it is good to be back with you guys.
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Um we tend to start the show with some kind of pop culture reference, usually, a blurb about something happening in society, a creative way of setting up the conversation, basically.
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We look for interesting ways to get into these conversations with you.
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Uh but a few seasons ago we started an episode and we talked about was it was uh sports balls, jock life, and the rules of athletics, I think.
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I think so, yeah.
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I don't know what we got into with that one, but yeah, I don't remember.
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Oh, actually, from there we moved into a discussion about the role that boundaries play in sports.
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That's what we were talking about.
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Oh we were talking about uh out of bounds and this, that, and the other.
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Um, but we found a way to tie that into our mental health journeys.
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We tend to do that.
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Um and over time, actually, early on, I want to say maybe the first or second episode, we brought Elmo into the conversation.
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Yes, because Elmo needs to bring to be in every conversation.
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Yeah, that was theory.
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Yeah.
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I think that was the one where we were talking about um we were talking about people's mental.
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I think it was the first episode.
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We were talking about mental health, and uh it was when Elmo tweeted, How are you doing?
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People unloaded.
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There was a lot of there was great answers.
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Elmo trauma dumped and everybody joined and everybody's good.
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That was good.
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And that was when you did your Elmo impression.
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Um all of this is coming back to me.
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Yes, let's not remember that.
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But the reason that I'm bringing this up is that those uh opening conversations they tend to create a little uncertainty and curiosity.
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There's the feeling of what are these guys, where are these guys heading with this, right?
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Um, but today we're gonna offer something a little less uncertain, a little less unpredictable.
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We want to begin the show in a way that feels straightforward, maybe even secure.
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We want you to feel securely attached to this episode of our podcast.
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So this is the second part of our exploration of the psychological framework known as attachment theory.
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Today we're focusing on the first attachment style, aptly known as secure attachment.
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Um, so let's jump into it, guys.
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But oh yeah, first, in case you missed our previous episode, let's briefly unpack attachment theory as a whole.
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So, what is attachment theory?
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Mark, let us go to the doctor right away.
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So, attachment theory is something that came up, and I think you're gonna be talking about the people who started this whole idea, Bulby and N.
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But um the idea of how do we attach per se when we are infants, you know, and that is dependent on what and who we're attaching to.
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You know, in mental health we talk about the fact if parents are good enough parents, sufficient, that there's good attachment there.
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You know, and we were talking before we got on that idea that maybe an example of attachment that was harder to do on the child's behalf is is attachment that for a foster child who has, you know, I've worked with people who've had 10, 15 foster homes, and so they ta attach and then they detach for different circumstances, and then they have to reattach, and then you know, there's all of these different people who are not being real consistent and all have different attachment styles.
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And and so when we look at attachment, we look at really the idea of safety.
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How safe do you feel around other people?
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How able are you to share your needs and to meet their needs?
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That's a good overview.
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That is really nice, yeah.
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So that was a brief overview of the theory.
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So attachment theory is a framework for understanding the emotional bonds that we form with other people, particularly the bonds that give us a sense of safety, like you just mentioned, Mark, connection and support.
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And like you said, the theory began primarily with the work of British psychiatrist John Bowlby.
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So Bowlby observed that children have an instinctive need to stay emotionally and physically connected to a caregiver.
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Um, I know that sounds kind of duh, like right?
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It's apparent, right?
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But uh, but that attachment is not simply about affection.
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From a developmental perspective, it is connected to safety and survival.
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And then later, psychologist Mary Ainsworth expanded on Bowlby's work through research including what became known as the strain situation.
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Um, she observed how young children responded when a caregiver left the room and then returned.
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So, in this strain situation research, um, researchers were not looking simply at whether a child became upset.
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They were observing questions like: Does the child expect the caregiver to return?
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Can the child receive comfort when the caregiver returns?
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Does the child use the caregiver as a secure base from which to explore?
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And what happens to the child's distress when connection is restored?
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So from this, it's probably important to move further than just asking, did your parents love you?
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There's a lot, a lot more, a lot more questions underneath here.
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And um, speaking of questions, I'm gonna throw in your way, Mark.
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Would it be fair to say that attachment is partly about the answers we learn to certain questions, even before we had words for those questions?
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Sure.
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I I think we're talking about implicit memory.
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Oh, that's good.
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You know, we're not talking about explicit where you can talk about and explain and be like, I remember when I was six months old that my mother did this, and my father, you don't have any of those memories until two, three years of age.
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That's when prefrontal cortex develops.
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But before that, we have implicit memories, and so that's how secure we feel in relation to our parents, and that's based on how secure they are in themselves.
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So were the two words again, implicit and explicitly.
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Yeah, so implicit would be that you don't have memory of it, but you have body memory.
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Okay.
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So you have sense sense of it, maybe, or yeah.
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So so an example of it that would be kind of extreme, but happens, is you have a child who is a year old, and that child has attached, let's say, to mom, and then mom gets a terminal diagnosis and passes.
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That child has such severe insecurity when it comes to attachment, but they can't tell you why.
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They can't remember why that's no.
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That's fascinating.
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You know, that makes a lot of sense.
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Yeah, and and so I had somebody on the other podcast, and that was Benjamin Fry, and he talked about his mom passing away, and he had no memory of it, but had severe, severe depression and severe issues with PTSD and and all kinds of things.
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And until he could put that together, and he he talks about having like three moms by the time he was like three and a half or four, and it was like that was the norm, but nothing was ever explained.
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And so it took him until he was in his 30s or 40s to realize what had happened.
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So that's an idea that that's the idea of implicit memory, and it's really common, you know, for us to carry in our bodies the experiences that we had before we have memory.
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Yeah, I've heard it um used in explaining some people's half a phobia, the fear of being touched, um, where something happened in the cradle um very early on, and ever since then they've they grow up to be adults and are don't want to be touched by anybody, they don't shake hands, they don't, and they can't remember where it came from, but it's in their body.
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It's something that was a defense mechanism from very early on.
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That's fascinating.
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Yeah, so so a good example of that that that kind of brings it home is let's say you're two years old and a dog comes up and bites you, and you have no memory of that, you know, no nobody tells you about it, and then you're like 12, 13 years old, and you're with your friends and you're all kidding around and walking down, and a dog comes up.
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Well, your friends are down, like wanting to pet the dog, and you're backing away instinctively, and you don't even know why.
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Yeah, wow.
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Yeah, what is it?
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Body keeps the score, that's all.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Our bodies remember more than than we do.
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So, um, like we talked about last week, we need to make an important acknowledgement that attachment styles are patterns, they're not permanent personality labels.
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So let's talk through what that means a little bit, right?
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So, what does it mean when something is a pattern or when something is not absolute?
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Um, because I think the way that I've heard attachment styles spoken about in in society has been, you know, which one are you?
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And it it people people don't like um they love certainty.
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And so it's much easier or people people's brains feel happier when they're like, it's this or that, and there's no graze.
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Um, but that's just not the case with something like an attachment style, Mark.
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I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about with that.
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Sure.
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I I I think that idea, and and I want to go to social media because so many times we see these like reels on Instagram, and and they do a disservice because they're like, my security attachment, my attachment, you know, style is, and they say it like it's a fact.
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Yeah.
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And and the real fact of it is that all of us have different attachment styles depending on who we're around.
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Okay.
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You know, so you can feel really safe around one individual and feel really insecure around another person.
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So I mean there's basics, but the but the thing I think that you're getting to, Walter, is it's not a fixed personality, you know, uh trait that is gonna be the same from the time that you're born till the time you die.
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They can change.
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And depending on how much you work, work you can do in therapy and and and in different modalities, that that should change some of your attachment as you understand your story more.
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So so um process through, can you move towards secure attachment?
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Is that possible even if you were your infancy or formative was quite chaotic or insecure?
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Yeah, and and I think it's it's all on a continuum.
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Right.
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And so if we look at it from one to a hundred, and let's say one is not very securely attached, and a hundred is fully, none of us are at a hundred, and none of us are at a one.
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We're all over the place, and we can gain points, let's say, okay, as we work through and feel more comfortable with ourselves and trust ourselves more so that then we trust others better.
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Sign me up, I'll take some points.
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That sounds great.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, it's uh it's a process like healing is the same thing, right?
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Right, yeah, it's it's ongoing.
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Um it's almost like uh okay.
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No, go ahead.
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What I'm gonna say is really silly, so but no, no, no, silly's great.
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It's almost like it's uh instead of just like uh I don't know, a certain brand of drink, like it's almost like a mixed drink.
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Yeah, it is like no no no, yeah, it's perfect.
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You know, you're kind of like bartending there, and you're like a little bit of you know, sometimes it's a little bit stronger here, something like that.
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Yeah, and and made a little more strawberry flavor.
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The way that that people can step into it that are listening to this is right now, and I'm gonna ask you guys, and I don't want you to answer, but I want you to think about who is somebody that you feel super comfortable with?
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You have somebody that comes to your mind right away.
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And then there's there's somebody that you do not feel comfortable with, you know, or or people that you don't.
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Well, that's an example of attachment style, you know, that you feel comfortable around this person, but not around that person.
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So as we're talking about this, this focused, uh, this uh secure attachment style.
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Um I got some questions for you.
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So can securely attached people still experience anxiety, anger, disappointment, jealousy, loneliness, or fear?
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Is it is attachment, is a secure attachment like I just feel great and comfortable and fantastic all the time when I'm with this person?
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Like, is that the hundred that you were talking about, the mythical hundred?
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Well, the mythical is right because there's no hundred.
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You know, again, we're on a continuum.
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And so, yeah, we're gonna have triggers, and and those triggers are gonna lead us down roads of anxiety, they're gonna lead us down roads of depression, anger, you know, fill in the blank with emotions.
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You know, really what what secure attachment is is you can move through all of those and do it rather rapidly without spending three days being really, really angry about something.
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You know, it'll move more quickly through your body, if that makes sense.
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You know, we we have the commonalities group, and one of the things we found with that is as people tell stories, our numbers go up because they tell stories that are either explicit or implicit and they touch our bodies, and so we are reacting to that.
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That doesn't mean we don't have a secure attachment, it means that we're able to feel the key with it is being able to to to progress through the emotion, reach a peak, and go down within a reasonable amount of time.
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So is it super helpful?
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Yeah.
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I I haven't I haven't explored that in that way.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Is it fair to say then that that secure attachment isn't the absence of distress, it's the the presence of enough safety that you're able to move through the distress?
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Yes.
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Okay, okay.
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It's a perfect way to put it.
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Okay.
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Um so secure attachment balances connection and autonomy.
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It allows people to say both, I need you, and I am still responsible for myself.
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And let's talk a little bit about that.
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We let's examine the the attachment part of attachment styles.
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What's the difference between depending on someone and becoming completely dependent upon them?
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Well, I I think that the way you would see that is a lot of anxiety, you know, because if you're depending on somebody else and they're this moving target that's not always there, it's very frustrating and it causes a lot of anxiety and we want them to be there all the time.
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You know, so dependency breeds anxiety, but it also breeds a lot of hostility because we feel like we're not adequate within ourselves and we need that other person instead of saying that this person's really good in my life.
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That's a big difference.
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Yeah.
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That makes sense, yeah.
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So why do some people associate needing others with weakness?
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Well, I think that that that has to do with like lessons that people learn growing up.
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You know, and and sometimes we get lessons of, you know, you can't rely on other people, you know, weak people rely on other people.
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You gotta be somebody that stands up for the for yourself.
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That's they're all false messages.
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But I think that you know, you gotta be a man.
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Yeah, it's such a ridiculous statement.
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Right, right.
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I don't even know what that means, but I do.
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You know, it and so but we carry these into our lives, and it's like, what happens if we need other people?
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That's good.
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I was thinking about one of the stories that was shared.
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I'm not gonna go into details earlier tonight, but with the commonalities group, but someone kind of mentioned how you know that was what they're they were told because they didn't like something, they're you know, stop you know, stop being a baby and all these things, and like painting this picture of like this person you know felt like they were in need of something or whatever, and then but because of that need, they now developed or feeling the a sense of need, they developed this now.
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I don't need anything.
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I can do all the all things, you know.
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Yeah, um yeah, and to expand on that, you know, if somebody connects it and says, What are you, a baby?
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Why are you crying?
00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:03.279
Then every time you cry, it brings you to a point of regression of feeling that you're a baby.
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:11.920
You know, because that's that's what you've been defined as instead of saying, you know, it's fine to cry because that's a normal part of being human.
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:19.119
That's yeah, that's I was thinking about the idea of being human, the fact that like because we are created, right?
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:25.920
We're created we exist within limitations inside of creation, so automatically we're gonna have needs and it's just given to us, right?
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:26.400
We're gonna be able to do that.
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.039
Right, but when those needs aren't met, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:35.599
We withdraw and we show less of our needs, right, and we come become in turn less human.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:36.400
Right.
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.680
And so recovery is a lot about becoming more human.
00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:40.000
Yeah.
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:45.839
You know, showing our humanness, right, showing all the needs that we have, good, bad, and indifferent in our minds.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:46.640
They're all good.
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:47.119
Right.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:49.039
Right, yeah.
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:59.279
This is you were talking about the we've been talking about the um independence being viewed as a good thing and needing people being viewed as weakness.
00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:01.599
Um, and we've talked about this on the show early on.
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.160
I talked about where penitentiaries came from.
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:10.720
Um, somebody with the best intentions in the world, um, I think it was a Quaker who spent a lot of time just thinking, right?
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.799
Um, just having some meditative time.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:32.720
They decided, you know, if a criminal is just given some time to really just, oh, here we go, cogitate, to like think about uh what they've done and to to have some time by themselves or they're not bothered by external forces, it's gonna, it's gonna help them reform and they're gonna feel bad about the things that they've done and then they're gonna be put back into society.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:41.839
But what they found out very quickly is that, and and so that was the idea of these penitentiaries where for people to to be in solitary confinement, especially be on their own and just sit and think.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.920
And very quickly they find out they found out that that is not healthy for humans and it was actually making people worse, right?
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.559
Um, because we weren't designed to be completely alone.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:52.079
Right.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:19:02.799
And so the idea of being on your own is good and relying on on others or depending on others is a weakness, is demonstrably false.
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.039
It's been proven that that's not the case.
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:14.559
Um but yeah, I think that messaging still continues to be put out culturally, that's where we we find ourselves, you know, and that I don't think that's always been the case.
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:28.960
There was a very different um kind of feel in like a collective was was highlighted in a lot of like communal like uh aspects where you know everyone had they could meet one the needs of one another, right?
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:31.839
The different way that they're wired, designed, and stuff like that.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.519
Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:38.880
I think that there's a very there's something very American to that um lone wolf thing.
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:49.920
Um yeah, because you look at different cultures even today throughout the world and in most of most European cultures and most uh Latin American cultures are not very, you know, solo.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:51.359
It's all about community.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.440
It they really, the it takes a village thing with raising a child, they they believe it.
00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:57.920
Um, and not just for raising children, but for everything they do.
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:00.319
Yeah, a a good question to ask yourselves.
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:02.799
I I remember being asked this in school.
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:10.559
It was an assignment that we were given, and this is something for listeners and for both of you to kind of think about when was the first time you asked for help?
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.960
When was the first time you remember asking for help and how was that met?
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:16.319
Wow, that's a good question.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:25.119
You know, because that'll tell you, you know, going forward how comfortable you were or are at this point in asking for help.
00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:28.319
I'm not very comfortable, but I don't remember when the first time was.
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:28.640
Yeah.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:30.880
Similar, like I struggle.
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:38.559
I can't recall when it was, but I definitely find myself not always being you know open to ask.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:39.200
Yeah.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.440
That's something I'm still working on.
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:43.839
Or there's like shame involved in asking.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:44.240
Yeah.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:52.640
So that feeling of like, oh, you you know, you're you failed, you l whatever, you know what I mean, depending on what you need.
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.839
And that's interesting where that, you know, develops.
00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:56.319
Yeah.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.440
And here's another one, Mark, since we're throwing questions your way.
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:11.119
Um are there people that appear like they're very securely attached in the sense of the kind of what we've been talking, the misconception of like the lone wolf, the person that's off on their own and can do life by themselves.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:16.880
Um, they appear to be at a hundred, that mythical hundred, but they're actually afraid of closeness.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:22.000
Yeah, there's a there's a phrase I use, and it's the bigger the front, the bigger the back.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:28.319
And so when somebody comes and, you know, we we we've all met people that seem like they have it all together.
00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:28.480
Yeah.
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:32.319
And we know that that has to be a falsehood because nobody has it all together.
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:40.640
But a lot of times the bigger the front that somebody puts that they have it all together, the more they're crumbling in the background and feel like they have to put on a front.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:54.000
And and and it's interesting when I work with people, one of the things I love is that people will come in and they'll be struggling, but they will not be really open about how their life is.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:54.319
Okay.
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.759
And as you create a warm open space for them, they start talking more and more.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.599
And more about it, and so that you get to the authentic self.
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:17.279
And so a lot of times when you're looking at that like person that has it all together, you know, whoever that is, you know, uh they don't have it all together, but they feel like they need to because they have lost their authentic self.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:22.319
And so it's so wonderful to be able to talk to people and see their authentic self kind of come about.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.039
Yeah.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:24.960
Yeah, I find that most, yeah.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:32.480
Uh I found that the people that feel most genuine to me and that seem the most balanced are are not putting on a front.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:37.279
Yeah, they're just comfortable with, you know, whatever, whatever's going on.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:38.640
It's rare, right?
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.640
I think some of us, like you keep saying with a lot of things, Mark, everything's on a spectrum.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:44.960
I think most of us are somewhere in there.
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:51.279
But um, yeah, I think the people that don't put on a show tend to be who they are in front of you.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:57.440
And then you've got these people that just I don't know, you they shake your hand a little too hard and they're too gruff and they're too.
00:22:57.759 --> 00:22:58.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.960
They're making a point that they're yeah, and then it's like, what's going on?
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:03.119
There's definitely well that's that's the insecurity.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:04.079
Insecurity, yeah.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.799
That's the idea of like power over, right?
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.839
Where are you like, um think Brene Brown, I don't know, but it's more biblical than anything else.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.200
But you know, the idea of like how Jesus showed power through serving, yeah.
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:22.079
Like he didn't he had he knew that he was powerful, that he didn't have to prove it, yeah, in any regard.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:23.920
Like miracles weren't the show's power, right?
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.839
Yeah, they were point to just something greater.
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.720
So it's just that type of value of like, okay.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:29.440
Yeah, you know.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.359
If somebody has to tell you that they're strong, yeah, they're not.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.039
Like it's not a thing that has to be, you know, impressed upon people.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:37.519
Right.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:38.720
Um, interesting.
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:39.279
Okay.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:45.279
Um, so if we were, if we were observing secure attachment in everyday adult relationships, Mark, what might we notice?
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:46.319
What are some signs of that?
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:58.720
I think you would see someone who is fluid in their personality that could have a real wide range of emotions that could interact with different people and move in and out with ease.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:00.720
And and that's a hard thing to do.
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:05.200
I I I think that again I want to go back to it's on a continuum.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:08.640
So I I like I think both of you do that well in areas.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:15.920
No, I I do, but I also know that you have your own struggles, and that that that doesn't have anything really to do with attachment.
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:19.359
Yeah, it has to do with just being a human being, you know.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:34.160
So I I think that this is really valuable to talk about attachment styles, as long as you don't lock it in and think like, oh, this person has it all together because they have a secure attachment, but rather, you know, that they're growing in their attachment to others, right?
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:39.599
Yeah, and they can withstand part of it is being able to withstand uncertainty, yeah.
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:39.920
Right.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:48.480
And but still to enter into the relationship as opposed to saying, like, I'm just gonna stay home and not meet anyone because it's too intimidating.
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:55.440
Yeah, I I I'm actually proud that I can display a wide range of emotions from a little anxious to very, very anxious.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:58.000
That's like just a really daggemy.
00:24:58.640 --> 00:24:59.599
We applaud you for that.
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:00.559
Thanks.
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.039
No, that's good.
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.000
Um I just had something to say, but I just no, I don't care.
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:06.960
Sorry.
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:08.160
No, you're good, you're good.
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:10.160
Um oh shoot.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:10.960
Yeah.
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:14.960
No, I was I was thinking like it, I don't think that's uh accurate.
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:17.680
Like the idea of like someone who's extroverted versus introverted.
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:21.119
I don't know if that's that's not doesn't fit the the kit the mold there.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:21.519
Okay.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:31.039
So attachment patterns do they become more visible when the relationship feels threatened or if there's conflict?
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:32.880
Is that because I know some things, right?
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:37.359
You you talk about you can see who people really are when you go through difficult moments together.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.920
Is that uh is that something that's uh that reveals attachment patterns?
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:48.880
Well, I I think that people who are more securely attached deal better with ambivalence within relationships.
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.519
Whereas people who are not securely attached want answers.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:26:05.519
You know, like the the grade school kids that are like you know, like sixth grade and they're dating and they want to know when they're gonna get married and you know, like you know, all that because they feel so insecure in their relationships.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:14.480
I think it's the same for for us that we want, you know, more um assurance when we're not as securely attached.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.440
When we're more securely attached, we can like go with the flow.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.279
That's a really good insight, right?
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:25.680
It's kind of like always insecure is always wondering if the relationships on the table.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:36.240
Yeah, constantly it's the uh it seem seems like the eggshells type of kind of approach where you're just constantly like nervous to say the wrong thing and this whole thing blow up, you know.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.680
Um I like how you said um you say ambivalence, they can you can uh sit through that.
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:51.359
Like that's that's a really good insight, be able to kind of recognize like okay, things aren't clearly defined at the moment because that's reality in life at times, right?
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:52.720
But we're still okay.
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:53.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:27:13.279
And if we want to move that into the spiritual realm, it's really fascinating because we have a God that's he's the only one that's a hundred percent secure because he is stable in who he is, he knows who he is, you know, and so he can deal with his creation being rather uh all over the place.
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:23.039
Right because you know, I heard something the other day, it's not so how securely attached we are to him as much as it is how attached he is to us, right?
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:30.640
Because we're always like moving around and doing, and we're closer to him and we're further away, but he just stays right where he is, yeah, yeah.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:32.240
Yeah, he he is faithful, right?
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:33.200
Even when we're not, right?
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:34.799
That's absolutely, yeah.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:35.920
That's good.
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:40.640
And many times we project on him what's going on inside of us.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:42.000
Many, many times.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:43.440
So we're like, Are you okay, God?
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:44.240
Are you okay, God?
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:47.359
And he's like, I'm fine, I'm the same yesterday, today, and forever.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:48.000
Exactly.
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:49.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:54.480
So, how does this secure attachment affect our broader mental health journey?
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:56.400
What what part does it play?
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:08.640
I think that when we look at our mental health, we look at the idea that a lot of things come from trauma, you know, our emotional dysregulation, our depression, or our anxiety.
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:21.039
A lot of the disorders that we talk about really have their roots in disorganized attachment from an early age, from parents, you know, substance abuse, all of these different things.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:30.000
And so if we have a more secure attachment that's coming from parents who are secure, we're gonna be able to deal with the ebbs and flows of life.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:36.079
Whereas if we don't have that, changes are gonna seem just so overwhelming.
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:37.279
That's a great point.
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:37.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:51.680
You know, and and so the enduring part of mental health is that idea of, you know, I can deal with days being good and I can deal with days being bad, and I can deal with people being up, and I can deal with people being down.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:59.920
But if I can't deal with that, I'm gonna have a lot more mood issues, and I'm gonna have a lot more dysregulation as a result.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:07.200
So what do we tell people that are listening that think secure attachment does not describe me?
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:08.160
Are they just stuck?
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:09.119
Is that just it?
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:11.359
That's probably not what I tell them.
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:14.079
Yeah, no, we just don't say anything.
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:14.799
Sorry, guys.
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:15.519
You know what?
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.359
The good news is neuroplasticity, and that is that the brain can change.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:27.519
And you know, in the 90s we thought that whatever you got, that's what you got, and you're stuck with, you know, you just needed to learn to cope.
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:28.559
That's not true.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:44.240
And so wherever you what wherever you're at, I would get curious about the areas that you're not as satisfied with, and then kind of maybe talk with somebody if you can take that risk to be able to be like, this is an area of my life that I'm struggling with.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:46.319
What what has been helpful to you?
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:56.000
Off topic kind of, but like what led up until the nineties to figure out that the brain was I think that one of the things is scans.
00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:56.640
Yeah.
00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:02.400
You know, we got more scans and we got we got to identify you know what was going on more in the brain.
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:02.880
Okay.
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:12.480
That was interesting because I was I was thinking about like the development of the body and how you know you start in this one little small package of something and you keep developing, growing, growing, growing.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:12.720
Yeah.
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.759
And you know, a reflection of the body is the brain as well.
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.680
Maybe that would be yeah, and I think that a lot of it was just assumptions.
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:20.000
Yeah.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:28.400
You know, they used to assume that kids came out as a blank slate and really didn't have any personality until like a year and a half, two years old.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:28.720
Yeah.
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:31.759
Well, now we see that that just can't be true.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:32.079
Right.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:33.279
But that was the assumption.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:33.519
Right.
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:42.480
And it was kind of like one of the reasons they tried to scare people not to use drugs is because, you know, if you killed those brain cells, that was all you got.
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.240
And I don't know where they came up with that.
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:45.920
You know, where it's a good tactic, though.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.720
Yeah, well, scare people, you know, get me off the crack.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.440
That idea that was like This is your brain on drugs.
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:52.240
That's right.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:53.599
I saw that egg flip through that.
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:54.400
I don't know.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:54.960
Thanks.
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:57.200
That's still what I think about during breakfast.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:11.359
But but that idea that, yeah, we can regenerate and we can, you know, become much more healthy through learning our stories, learning and and having like good nutrition and taking care of ourselves and having good self-care.
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:11.680
Yeah.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:13.920
All of those things, it's not just one thing.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:14.319
Right.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:18.559
You know, if somebody's going into it and being like, Well, I'm not so securely attached, that's fine.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:23.519
And it feels like it aligns with the story, the narrative of God above redemption.
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:24.000
Yeah.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:30.640
You know, it feels like that that makes more sense where these things sure there's brokenness here, but that doesn't mean it's brokenness forever.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:31.119
Right.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:45.599
Yeah, and that and the research is showing, which I find so fascinating, that if you have a more uh cognitive awareness of your story, you know, more of an understanding of where you've come from.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:54.480
And the things like a historical accuracy of that, sure, you know, the more accurate you can get, I think the better that is for your mental health.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:56.880
Yeah, it's it's more puzzle pieces, right?
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:57.200
Yeah.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:57.680
Like you have these.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:31:58.799
That's a great way to put it, right?
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:06.400
You're kind of just fragmented and you have a couple of these pieces, but like the more you can go back and actually, oh, this, you know, you you get a more of a more of a full picture.
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:06.880
Yeah.
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:07.839
That's really good.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:09.119
I like that metaphor.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:14.160
So I I made a list here, and you can help me with this, Mark, to see if they're actually true.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:17.519
Uh list of things that might help cultivate uh secure attachment.
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.720
So um notice what activates your attachment system.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:22.559
What is what was the trigger, right?
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:26.400
Uh pause before reacting to the story that your fear fear is telling you.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:29.200
Uh naming your emotion and the need beneath it.
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.240
I'm feeling angry.
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:30.640
Why?
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:32.480
What's what am I needing in this moment to not feel?
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:33.359
That's good.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:34.160
I like that one a lot.
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:40.000
Because um, and even like giving I trying to identify start with just even identify like how do you name it?
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:44.079
Because I think there's been times of like, I don't know what I'm feeling, I don't know how to name it.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.640
And like kind of hearing from other people.
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:53.599
Yeah, and a lot of times you know, if you can't come up with the name for your feeling, I always use that thing of like color.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:54.079
What color?
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:55.200
You guys use that the other night?
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:55.519
That was perfect.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:00.240
Yeah, well I wasn't sure like what I was feeling, but you're like, paint it, describe it.
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:07.599
So what color and that you know, instead of saying like I'm feeling and filling that in, what color would you give it?
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.640
Yeah, and then from there, what shape would you give it?
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:11.920
And what size would you give it?
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:16.480
That'll give you some ideas about what's going on and where are you noticing it in your body?
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.640
Another one is uh to make clear requests instead of testing people or expecting them to read your mind.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.359
I think it's always really good, just like set expectations.
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:28.720
How come?
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:29.359
How dare you?
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.400
Um practice receiving care without apologizing for having needs.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:35.440
That one's tough.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.119
Yeah, um, I struggle with that one for sure.
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:38.400
I'm always like, I'm so sorry.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:39.200
Yeah, me too.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:47.200
Um setting boundaries without using them as threats or punishments, uh, return to difficult convert conversations after taking space.
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:48.720
That's a healthy one.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:50.160
Yeah, that's a really healthy one.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:51.920
Okay, I just need to let me think through this.
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:53.200
We're gonna get back and yeah.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:56.240
And I think that's a challenge one in our culture of reactionary.
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.319
Yeah, like, and you need to have the answer now.
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.559
I'm like, yeah, that's so unhealthy.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:00.880
Yeah.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:05.759
I mean, there's moments where you have to react to get it, but like those are probably few far between, you know.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.320
Yeah, that space in between has so much power.
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:09.280
Oh, yeah.
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:09.920
Yeah.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:13.440
Another one is to learn to apologize specifically.
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:15.519
That one's interesting.
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:18.639
And I would put what do you mean specifically there, we think?
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:31.039
To so if if there's something that you feel the need to apologize for, that it's that and not a lot of times we're for the way that you're feeling or the way you've received what I said, or it could be that.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.159
Um, but I think sometimes we kind of apologize for existing.
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:39.679
Like, hey, I'm sorry that you know that I'm a person and like sorry, sorry, I'm who I am.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:40.400
Yeah, right.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:41.199
Okay, okay.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:41.519
Yeah.
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:49.039
And I I was gonna say, Walter, yeah, what I would put at the top of that list is practice all of these because it's not like they're gonna come naturally.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:49.840
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:50.159 --> 00:35:00.960
Like just practice one, or you know, go to somebody and say, like, I am like find somebody that's safe and go to them and say, I don't know, I'm kind of struggling with this and see what they say to you.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:08.079
Well, it's great that you said that because the next one is identify trustworthy people and gradually practice appropriate vulnerability.
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:09.599
So there you go.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:17.360
Um, and the last one on the list I had is seek professional support when old patterns feel overwhelming or repeatedly harm your relationships.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:21.280
So I think those can all kind of hopefully put us on the same on the right track, right?
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:22.960
Yeah, getting a few points.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:32.559
Um, so as we close today, I want to reiterate that secure attachment is not about having a perfect history, perfect relationships, or perfectly regulated emotions.
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:34.960
That's that mythical hundred that we talk about, right?
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:41.840
Um, it is really about developing the capacity to trust, to connect, to communicate, to regulate, and to repair.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:44.480
And maybe security sounds like this.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:48.880
I can be honest without believing honesty will always lead to abandonment.
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:53.519
And that's a tough statement for people to make sometimes because of their past, because of their history.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:55.920
I've I've said this and that person left, you know.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:01.599
Um, but I think it I think it gets us a little bit closer to what that security um is.
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:07.440
So uh thank you for joining us on this episode of With All Your Mind.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:16.320
In in our next conversation, we're gonna continue exploring attachment theory and consider what happens when closeness feels uncertain, unpredictable, or at risk.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:22.079
But in the meantime, continue caring for your relationships, your emotional well being, and your mind.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:26.960
Um, and just want to remind you all that we love you, God loves you, and God bless you.
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:27.920
We'll see you on the next one.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:28.800
See ya.
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:02.959
Welcome to the With All Your Mind Podcast.
00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:09.759
This podcast exists as a resource and a part of the ministry at Commonplace Church, our mental health ministry.
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.880
If you'd like to learn more about the church or about the ministry itself, visit up to commonplacechurch.org.
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:16.879
Hope you enjoyed this conversation.
00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:21.039
Hello, and welcome back to With All Your Mind.
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:21.920
I'm Walter F.
00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:24.399
Rodriguez, and with me are my co-hosts, Dr.
00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.120
Mark McNear and Pastor Kirk Ruprecht.
00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:27.839
Hello.
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:29.120
How are you?
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:29.920
That's awesome.
00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:35.520
Hey, uh, should we talk real quick about missing the word of the day?
00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:37.200
The word of the day is cogitating.
00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:38.960
Which is a new word Walter introduced.
00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:39.600
Yeah, yeah.
00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:40.719
To think deeply into it.
00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:41.119
Yes.
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:45.280
No, we were uh I know we started the podcast a week ago, but we started back up the season.
00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:48.159
We're like, yo, we're gonna be, you know, so consistent.
00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:55.439
And and uh I I own the fact that uh I got really sick last week and so we did not get the podcast to be consistent.
00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.799
So just wanted to apologize to those listeners who are on the edge.
00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:02.079
They're like, they said they would do it, and then here's the paradox though.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:05.519
If you're consistently inconsistent, you're still consistent about that, right?
00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:08.000
So that's a great way to look at it.
00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:09.840
So so can I add something to that?
00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:11.200
What did he say?
00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:12.159
You were what?
00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:13.280
What did I say?
00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:14.400
You were he was sick.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:15.359
Oh, I was ill.
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:16.959
You were much more than that.
00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:18.319
Yeah, death was the most.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:20.159
We walked in and you looked in.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:21.760
Yes, it is the most of crack.
00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:23.760
I was in the process of writing my will.
00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:27.519
We're glad you're here with us now on this.
00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:34.319
I think it should be Mark.
00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:35.519
Mark is a successful podcaster.
00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:36.239
Never mind.
00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:36.879
Sorry, Walter.
00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:38.959
No worries.
00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:41.920
But it is good to be back with you guys.
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:50.719
Um we tend to start the show with some kind of pop culture reference, usually, a blurb about something happening in society, a creative way of setting up the conversation, basically.
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:54.480
We look for interesting ways to get into these conversations with you.
00:01:54.560 --> 00:02:01.120
Uh but a few seasons ago we started an episode and we talked about was it was uh sports balls, jock life, and the rules of athletics, I think.
00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:01.840
I think so, yeah.
00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:06.159
I don't know what we got into with that one, but yeah, I don't remember.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:10.479
Oh, actually, from there we moved into a discussion about the role that boundaries play in sports.
00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:11.360
That's what we were talking about.
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:15.680
Oh we were talking about uh out of bounds and this, that, and the other.
00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.039
Um, but we found a way to tie that into our mental health journeys.
00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:19.919
We tend to do that.
00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:26.479
Um and over time, actually, early on, I want to say maybe the first or second episode, we brought Elmo into the conversation.
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:29.120
Yes, because Elmo needs to bring to be in every conversation.
00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:30.960
Yeah, that was theory.
00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:31.280
Yeah.
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:35.599
I think that was the one where we were talking about um we were talking about people's mental.
00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:37.120
I think it was the first episode.
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:42.800
We were talking about mental health, and uh it was when Elmo tweeted, How are you doing?
00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.120
People unloaded.
00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:47.840
There was a lot of there was great answers.
00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:51.280
Elmo trauma dumped and everybody joined and everybody's good.
00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:52.159
That was good.
00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:55.360
And that was when you did your Elmo impression.
00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:56.639
Um all of this is coming back to me.
00:02:57.520 --> 00:02:58.719
Yes, let's not remember that.
00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:05.439
But the reason that I'm bringing this up is that those uh opening conversations they tend to create a little uncertainty and curiosity.
00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:09.680
There's the feeling of what are these guys, where are these guys heading with this, right?
00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:14.319
Um, but today we're gonna offer something a little less uncertain, a little less unpredictable.
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:18.960
We want to begin the show in a way that feels straightforward, maybe even secure.
00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:24.159
We want you to feel securely attached to this episode of our podcast.
00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:30.639
So this is the second part of our exploration of the psychological framework known as attachment theory.
00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:35.759
Today we're focusing on the first attachment style, aptly known as secure attachment.
00:03:35.919 --> 00:03:37.759
Um, so let's jump into it, guys.
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:43.360
But oh yeah, first, in case you missed our previous episode, let's briefly unpack attachment theory as a whole.
00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:45.599
So, what is attachment theory?
00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:47.759
Mark, let us go to the doctor right away.
00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:57.199
So, attachment theory is something that came up, and I think you're gonna be talking about the people who started this whole idea, Bulby and N.
00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:11.360
But um the idea of how do we attach per se when we are infants, you know, and that is dependent on what and who we're attaching to.
00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:19.839
You know, in mental health we talk about the fact if parents are good enough parents, sufficient, that there's good attachment there.
00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:53.680
You know, and we were talking before we got on that idea that maybe an example of attachment that was harder to do on the child's behalf is is attachment that for a foster child who has, you know, I've worked with people who've had 10, 15 foster homes, and so they ta attach and then they detach for different circumstances, and then they have to reattach, and then you know, there's all of these different people who are not being real consistent and all have different attachment styles.
00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:59.040
And and so when we look at attachment, we look at really the idea of safety.
00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.240
How safe do you feel around other people?
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:07.519
How able are you to share your needs and to meet their needs?
00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:09.199
That's a good overview.
00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:10.480
That is really nice, yeah.
00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:12.720
So that was a brief overview of the theory.
00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:22.399
So attachment theory is a framework for understanding the emotional bonds that we form with other people, particularly the bonds that give us a sense of safety, like you just mentioned, Mark, connection and support.
00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:26.879
And like you said, the theory began primarily with the work of British psychiatrist John Bowlby.
00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:32.240
So Bowlby observed that children have an instinctive need to stay emotionally and physically connected to a caregiver.
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:36.480
Um, I know that sounds kind of duh, like right?
00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:37.519
It's apparent, right?
00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:40.480
But uh, but that attachment is not simply about affection.
00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:43.680
From a developmental perspective, it is connected to safety and survival.
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:51.040
And then later, psychologist Mary Ainsworth expanded on Bowlby's work through research including what became known as the strain situation.
00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:55.680
Um, she observed how young children responded when a caregiver left the room and then returned.
00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:01.360
So, in this strain situation research, um, researchers were not looking simply at whether a child became upset.
00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:05.439
They were observing questions like: Does the child expect the caregiver to return?
00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:09.360
Can the child receive comfort when the caregiver returns?
00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:13.279
Does the child use the caregiver as a secure base from which to explore?
00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:16.800
And what happens to the child's distress when connection is restored?
00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:21.519
So from this, it's probably important to move further than just asking, did your parents love you?
00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:24.959
There's a lot, a lot more, a lot more questions underneath here.
00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:27.920
And um, speaking of questions, I'm gonna throw in your way, Mark.
00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:34.800
Would it be fair to say that attachment is partly about the answers we learn to certain questions, even before we had words for those questions?
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Sure.
00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:39.120
I I think we're talking about implicit memory.
00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:39.839
Oh, that's good.
00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:52.079
You know, we're not talking about explicit where you can talk about and explain and be like, I remember when I was six months old that my mother did this, and my father, you don't have any of those memories until two, three years of age.
00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:55.040
That's when prefrontal cortex develops.
00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:09.120
But before that, we have implicit memories, and so that's how secure we feel in relation to our parents, and that's based on how secure they are in themselves.
00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:12.079
So were the two words again, implicit and explicitly.
00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:17.120
Yeah, so implicit would be that you don't have memory of it, but you have body memory.
00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:18.079
Okay.
00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.120
So you have sense sense of it, maybe, or yeah.
00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:36.240
So so an example of it that would be kind of extreme, but happens, is you have a child who is a year old, and that child has attached, let's say, to mom, and then mom gets a terminal diagnosis and passes.
00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:44.240
That child has such severe insecurity when it comes to attachment, but they can't tell you why.
00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:45.680
They can't remember why that's no.
00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:46.240
That's fascinating.
00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:47.360
You know, that makes a lot of sense.
00:07:47.759 --> 00:08:03.920
Yeah, and and so I had somebody on the other podcast, and that was Benjamin Fry, and he talked about his mom passing away, and he had no memory of it, but had severe, severe depression and severe issues with PTSD and and all kinds of things.
00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:14.879
And until he could put that together, and he he talks about having like three moms by the time he was like three and a half or four, and it was like that was the norm, but nothing was ever explained.
00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:20.240
And so it took him until he was in his 30s or 40s to realize what had happened.
00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:31.839
So that's an idea that that's the idea of implicit memory, and it's really common, you know, for us to carry in our bodies the experiences that we had before we have memory.
00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:51.120
Yeah, I've heard it um used in explaining some people's half a phobia, the fear of being touched, um, where something happened in the cradle um very early on, and ever since then they've they grow up to be adults and are don't want to be touched by anybody, they don't shake hands, they don't, and they can't remember where it came from, but it's in their body.
00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.639
It's something that was a defense mechanism from very early on.
00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:55.600
That's fascinating.
00:08:55.840 --> 00:09:17.840
Yeah, so so a good example of that that that kind of brings it home is let's say you're two years old and a dog comes up and bites you, and you have no memory of that, you know, no nobody tells you about it, and then you're like 12, 13 years old, and you're with your friends and you're all kidding around and walking down, and a dog comes up.
00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:24.320
Well, your friends are down, like wanting to pet the dog, and you're backing away instinctively, and you don't even know why.
00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:26.480
Yeah, wow.
00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:27.759
Yeah, what is it?
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:29.279
Body keeps the score, that's all.
00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:30.080
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:30.879
Yeah.
00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:33.360
Our bodies remember more than than we do.
00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:43.519
So, um, like we talked about last week, we need to make an important acknowledgement that attachment styles are patterns, they're not permanent personality labels.
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.320
So let's talk through what that means a little bit, right?
00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:52.639
So, what does it mean when something is a pattern or when something is not absolute?
00:09:52.799 --> 00:10:01.279
Um, because I think the way that I've heard attachment styles spoken about in in society has been, you know, which one are you?
00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:07.600
And it it people people don't like um they love certainty.
00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:15.039
And so it's much easier or people people's brains feel happier when they're like, it's this or that, and there's no graze.
00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.480
Um, but that's just not the case with something like an attachment style, Mark.
00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:20.320
I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about with that.
00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:21.279
Sure.
00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:37.039
I I I think that idea, and and I want to go to social media because so many times we see these like reels on Instagram, and and they do a disservice because they're like, my security attachment, my attachment, you know, style is, and they say it like it's a fact.
00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:37.200
Yeah.
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:43.679
And and the real fact of it is that all of us have different attachment styles depending on who we're around.
00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:44.159
Okay.
00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:50.720
You know, so you can feel really safe around one individual and feel really insecure around another person.
00:10:51.039 --> 00:11:05.600
So I mean there's basics, but the but the thing I think that you're getting to, Walter, is it's not a fixed personality, you know, uh trait that is gonna be the same from the time that you're born till the time you die.
00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:06.639
They can change.
00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:19.519
And depending on how much you work, work you can do in therapy and and and in different modalities, that that should change some of your attachment as you understand your story more.
00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:27.919
So so um process through, can you move towards secure attachment?
00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:35.200
Is that possible even if you were your infancy or formative was quite chaotic or insecure?
00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:38.080
Yeah, and and I think it's it's all on a continuum.
00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:38.480
Right.
00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:49.440
And so if we look at it from one to a hundred, and let's say one is not very securely attached, and a hundred is fully, none of us are at a hundred, and none of us are at a one.
00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:58.559
We're all over the place, and we can gain points, let's say, okay, as we work through and feel more comfortable with ourselves and trust ourselves more so that then we trust others better.
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:00.080
Sign me up, I'll take some points.
00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:00.720
That sounds great.
00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:01.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:03.919
Yeah, it's uh it's a process like healing is the same thing, right?
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:05.600
Right, yeah, it's it's ongoing.
00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:07.600
Um it's almost like uh okay.
00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:08.559
No, go ahead.
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.600
What I'm gonna say is really silly, so but no, no, no, silly's great.
00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:18.159
It's almost like it's uh instead of just like uh I don't know, a certain brand of drink, like it's almost like a mixed drink.
00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.159
Yeah, it is like no no no, yeah, it's perfect.
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:26.159
You know, you're kind of like bartending there, and you're like a little bit of you know, sometimes it's a little bit stronger here, something like that.
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:28.879
Yeah, and and made a little more strawberry flavor.
00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:41.679
The way that that people can step into it that are listening to this is right now, and I'm gonna ask you guys, and I don't want you to answer, but I want you to think about who is somebody that you feel super comfortable with?
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:44.879
You have somebody that comes to your mind right away.
00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:51.679
And then there's there's somebody that you do not feel comfortable with, you know, or or people that you don't.
00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:58.320
Well, that's an example of attachment style, you know, that you feel comfortable around this person, but not around that person.
00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:04.480
So as we're talking about this, this focused, uh, this uh secure attachment style.
00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:06.399
Um I got some questions for you.
00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:12.799
So can securely attached people still experience anxiety, anger, disappointment, jealousy, loneliness, or fear?
00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:20.000
Is it is attachment, is a secure attachment like I just feel great and comfortable and fantastic all the time when I'm with this person?
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:22.799
Like, is that the hundred that you were talking about, the mythical hundred?
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:27.600
Well, the mythical is right because there's no hundred.
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:29.919
You know, again, we're on a continuum.
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:42.960
And so, yeah, we're gonna have triggers, and and those triggers are gonna lead us down roads of anxiety, they're gonna lead us down roads of depression, anger, you know, fill in the blank with emotions.
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:53.600
You know, really what what secure attachment is is you can move through all of those and do it rather rapidly without spending three days being really, really angry about something.
00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:57.279
You know, it'll move more quickly through your body, if that makes sense.
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:15.519
You know, we we have the commonalities group, and one of the things we found with that is as people tell stories, our numbers go up because they tell stories that are either explicit or implicit and they touch our bodies, and so we are reacting to that.
00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:29.840
That doesn't mean we don't have a secure attachment, it means that we're able to feel the key with it is being able to to to progress through the emotion, reach a peak, and go down within a reasonable amount of time.
00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:31.679
So is it super helpful?
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:32.080
Yeah.
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:35.039
I I haven't I haven't explored that in that way.
00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:36.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:46.559
Is it fair to say then that that secure attachment isn't the absence of distress, it's the the presence of enough safety that you're able to move through the distress?
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:47.039
Yes.
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:47.919
Okay, okay.
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:49.200
It's a perfect way to put it.
00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:50.080
Okay.
00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:53.759
Um so secure attachment balances connection and autonomy.
00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:58.080
It allows people to say both, I need you, and I am still responsible for myself.
00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:00.000
And let's talk a little bit about that.
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.279
We let's examine the the attachment part of attachment styles.
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:08.000
What's the difference between depending on someone and becoming completely dependent upon them?
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:23.120
Well, I I think that the way you would see that is a lot of anxiety, you know, because if you're depending on somebody else and they're this moving target that's not always there, it's very frustrating and it causes a lot of anxiety and we want them to be there all the time.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:37.200
You know, so dependency breeds anxiety, but it also breeds a lot of hostility because we feel like we're not adequate within ourselves and we need that other person instead of saying that this person's really good in my life.
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:38.799
That's a big difference.
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:39.519
Yeah.
00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:41.919
That makes sense, yeah.
00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:47.120
So why do some people associate needing others with weakness?
00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:53.679
Well, I think that that that has to do with like lessons that people learn growing up.
00:15:54.000 --> 00:16:00.799
You know, and and sometimes we get lessons of, you know, you can't rely on other people, you know, weak people rely on other people.
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.919
You gotta be somebody that stands up for the for yourself.
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:05.919
That's they're all false messages.
00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.960
But I think that you know, you gotta be a man.
00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:10.799
Yeah, it's such a ridiculous statement.
00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:11.279
Right, right.
00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:13.360
I don't even know what that means, but I do.
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:20.879
You know, it and so but we carry these into our lives, and it's like, what happens if we need other people?
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:21.840
That's good.
00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:24.559
I was thinking about one of the stories that was shared.
00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:48.320
I'm not gonna go into details earlier tonight, but with the commonalities group, but someone kind of mentioned how you know that was what they're they were told because they didn't like something, they're you know, stop you know, stop being a baby and all these things, and like painting this picture of like this person you know felt like they were in need of something or whatever, and then but because of that need, they now developed or feeling the a sense of need, they developed this now.
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:49.519
I don't need anything.
00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:51.120
I can do all the all things, you know.
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:57.120
Yeah, um yeah, and to expand on that, you know, if somebody connects it and says, What are you, a baby?
00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:58.000
Why are you crying?
00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:03.279
Then every time you cry, it brings you to a point of regression of feeling that you're a baby.
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:11.920
You know, because that's that's what you've been defined as instead of saying, you know, it's fine to cry because that's a normal part of being human.
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:19.119
That's yeah, that's I was thinking about the idea of being human, the fact that like because we are created, right?
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:25.920
We're created we exist within limitations inside of creation, so automatically we're gonna have needs and it's just given to us, right?
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:26.400
We're gonna be able to do that.
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.039
Right, but when those needs aren't met, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:35.599
We withdraw and we show less of our needs, right, and we come become in turn less human.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:36.400
Right.
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.680
And so recovery is a lot about becoming more human.
00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:40.000
Yeah.
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:45.839
You know, showing our humanness, right, showing all the needs that we have, good, bad, and indifferent in our minds.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:46.640
They're all good.
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:47.119
Right.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:49.039
Right, yeah.
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:59.279
This is you were talking about the we've been talking about the um independence being viewed as a good thing and needing people being viewed as weakness.
00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:01.599
Um, and we've talked about this on the show early on.
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.160
I talked about where penitentiaries came from.
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:10.720
Um, somebody with the best intentions in the world, um, I think it was a Quaker who spent a lot of time just thinking, right?
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.799
Um, just having some meditative time.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:32.720
They decided, you know, if a criminal is just given some time to really just, oh, here we go, cogitate, to like think about uh what they've done and to to have some time by themselves or they're not bothered by external forces, it's gonna, it's gonna help them reform and they're gonna feel bad about the things that they've done and then they're gonna be put back into society.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:41.839
But what they found out very quickly is that, and and so that was the idea of these penitentiaries where for people to to be in solitary confinement, especially be on their own and just sit and think.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.920
And very quickly they find out they found out that that is not healthy for humans and it was actually making people worse, right?
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.559
Um, because we weren't designed to be completely alone.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:52.079
Right.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:19:02.799
And so the idea of being on your own is good and relying on on others or depending on others is a weakness, is demonstrably false.
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.039
It's been proven that that's not the case.
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:14.559
Um but yeah, I think that messaging still continues to be put out culturally, that's where we we find ourselves, you know, and that I don't think that's always been the case.
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:28.960
There was a very different um kind of feel in like a collective was was highlighted in a lot of like communal like uh aspects where you know everyone had they could meet one the needs of one another, right?
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:31.839
The different way that they're wired, designed, and stuff like that.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.519
Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:38.880
I think that there's a very there's something very American to that um lone wolf thing.
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:49.920
Um yeah, because you look at different cultures even today throughout the world and in most of most European cultures and most uh Latin American cultures are not very, you know, solo.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:51.359
It's all about community.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.440
It they really, the it takes a village thing with raising a child, they they believe it.
00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:57.920
Um, and not just for raising children, but for everything they do.
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:00.319
Yeah, a a good question to ask yourselves.
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:02.799
I I remember being asked this in school.
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:10.559
It was an assignment that we were given, and this is something for listeners and for both of you to kind of think about when was the first time you asked for help?
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.960
When was the first time you remember asking for help and how was that met?
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:16.319
Wow, that's a good question.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:25.119
You know, because that'll tell you, you know, going forward how comfortable you were or are at this point in asking for help.
00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:28.319
I'm not very comfortable, but I don't remember when the first time was.
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:28.640
Yeah.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:30.880
Similar, like I struggle.
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:38.559
I can't recall when it was, but I definitely find myself not always being you know open to ask.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:39.200
Yeah.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.440
That's something I'm still working on.
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:43.839
Or there's like shame involved in asking.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:44.240
Yeah.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:52.640
So that feeling of like, oh, you you know, you're you failed, you l whatever, you know what I mean, depending on what you need.
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.839
And that's interesting where that, you know, develops.
00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:56.319
Yeah.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.440
And here's another one, Mark, since we're throwing questions your way.
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:11.119
Um are there people that appear like they're very securely attached in the sense of the kind of what we've been talking, the misconception of like the lone wolf, the person that's off on their own and can do life by themselves.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:16.880
Um, they appear to be at a hundred, that mythical hundred, but they're actually afraid of closeness.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:22.000
Yeah, there's a there's a phrase I use, and it's the bigger the front, the bigger the back.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:28.319
And so when somebody comes and, you know, we we we've all met people that seem like they have it all together.
00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:28.480
Yeah.
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:32.319
And we know that that has to be a falsehood because nobody has it all together.
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:40.640
But a lot of times the bigger the front that somebody puts that they have it all together, the more they're crumbling in the background and feel like they have to put on a front.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:54.000
And and and it's interesting when I work with people, one of the things I love is that people will come in and they'll be struggling, but they will not be really open about how their life is.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:54.319
Okay.
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.759
And as you create a warm open space for them, they start talking more and more.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.599
And more about it, and so that you get to the authentic self.
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:17.279
And so a lot of times when you're looking at that like person that has it all together, you know, whoever that is, you know, uh they don't have it all together, but they feel like they need to because they have lost their authentic self.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:22.319
And so it's so wonderful to be able to talk to people and see their authentic self kind of come about.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.039
Yeah.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:24.960
Yeah, I find that most, yeah.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:32.480
Uh I found that the people that feel most genuine to me and that seem the most balanced are are not putting on a front.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:37.279
Yeah, they're just comfortable with, you know, whatever, whatever's going on.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:38.640
It's rare, right?
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.640
I think some of us, like you keep saying with a lot of things, Mark, everything's on a spectrum.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:44.960
I think most of us are somewhere in there.
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:51.279
But um, yeah, I think the people that don't put on a show tend to be who they are in front of you.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:57.440
And then you've got these people that just I don't know, you they shake your hand a little too hard and they're too gruff and they're too.
00:22:57.759 --> 00:22:58.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.960
They're making a point that they're yeah, and then it's like, what's going on?
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:03.119
There's definitely well that's that's the insecurity.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:04.079
Insecurity, yeah.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.799
That's the idea of like power over, right?
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.839
Where are you like, um think Brene Brown, I don't know, but it's more biblical than anything else.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.200
But you know, the idea of like how Jesus showed power through serving, yeah.
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:22.079
Like he didn't he had he knew that he was powerful, that he didn't have to prove it, yeah, in any regard.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:23.920
Like miracles weren't the show's power, right?
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.839
Yeah, they were point to just something greater.
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.720
So it's just that type of value of like, okay.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:29.440
Yeah, you know.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.359
If somebody has to tell you that they're strong, yeah, they're not.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.039
Like it's not a thing that has to be, you know, impressed upon people.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:37.519
Right.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:38.720
Um, interesting.
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:39.279
Okay.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:45.279
Um, so if we were, if we were observing secure attachment in everyday adult relationships, Mark, what might we notice?
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:46.319
What are some signs of that?
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:58.720
I think you would see someone who is fluid in their personality that could have a real wide range of emotions that could interact with different people and move in and out with ease.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:00.720
And and that's a hard thing to do.
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:05.200
I I I think that again I want to go back to it's on a continuum.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:08.640
So I I like I think both of you do that well in areas.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:15.920
No, I I do, but I also know that you have your own struggles, and that that that doesn't have anything really to do with attachment.
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:19.359
Yeah, it has to do with just being a human being, you know.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:34.160
So I I think that this is really valuable to talk about attachment styles, as long as you don't lock it in and think like, oh, this person has it all together because they have a secure attachment, but rather, you know, that they're growing in their attachment to others, right?
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:39.599
Yeah, and they can withstand part of it is being able to withstand uncertainty, yeah.
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:39.920
Right.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:48.480
And but still to enter into the relationship as opposed to saying, like, I'm just gonna stay home and not meet anyone because it's too intimidating.
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:55.440
Yeah, I I I'm actually proud that I can display a wide range of emotions from a little anxious to very, very anxious.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:58.000
That's like just a really daggemy.
00:24:58.640 --> 00:24:59.599
We applaud you for that.
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:00.559
Thanks.
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.039
No, that's good.
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.000
Um I just had something to say, but I just no, I don't care.
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:06.960
Sorry.
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:08.160
No, you're good, you're good.
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:10.160
Um oh shoot.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:10.960
Yeah.
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:14.960
No, I was I was thinking like it, I don't think that's uh accurate.
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:17.680
Like the idea of like someone who's extroverted versus introverted.
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:21.119
I don't know if that's that's not doesn't fit the the kit the mold there.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:21.519
Okay.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:31.039
So attachment patterns do they become more visible when the relationship feels threatened or if there's conflict?
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:32.880
Is that because I know some things, right?
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:37.359
You you talk about you can see who people really are when you go through difficult moments together.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.920
Is that uh is that something that's uh that reveals attachment patterns?
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:48.880
Well, I I think that people who are more securely attached deal better with ambivalence within relationships.
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.519
Whereas people who are not securely attached want answers.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:26:05.519
You know, like the the grade school kids that are like you know, like sixth grade and they're dating and they want to know when they're gonna get married and you know, like you know, all that because they feel so insecure in their relationships.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:14.480
I think it's the same for for us that we want, you know, more um assurance when we're not as securely attached.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.440
When we're more securely attached, we can like go with the flow.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.279
That's a really good insight, right?
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:25.680
It's kind of like always insecure is always wondering if the relationships on the table.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:36.240
Yeah, constantly it's the uh it seem seems like the eggshells type of kind of approach where you're just constantly like nervous to say the wrong thing and this whole thing blow up, you know.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.680
Um I like how you said um you say ambivalence, they can you can uh sit through that.
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:51.359
Like that's that's a really good insight, be able to kind of recognize like okay, things aren't clearly defined at the moment because that's reality in life at times, right?
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:52.720
But we're still okay.
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:53.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:27:13.279
And if we want to move that into the spiritual realm, it's really fascinating because we have a God that's he's the only one that's a hundred percent secure because he is stable in who he is, he knows who he is, you know, and so he can deal with his creation being rather uh all over the place.
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:23.039
Right because you know, I heard something the other day, it's not so how securely attached we are to him as much as it is how attached he is to us, right?
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:30.640
Because we're always like moving around and doing, and we're closer to him and we're further away, but he just stays right where he is, yeah, yeah.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:32.240
Yeah, he he is faithful, right?
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:33.200
Even when we're not, right?
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:34.799
That's absolutely, yeah.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:35.920
That's good.
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:40.640
And many times we project on him what's going on inside of us.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:42.000
Many, many times.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:43.440
So we're like, Are you okay, God?
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:44.240
Are you okay, God?
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:47.359
And he's like, I'm fine, I'm the same yesterday, today, and forever.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:48.000
Exactly.
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:49.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:54.480
So, how does this secure attachment affect our broader mental health journey?
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:56.400
What what part does it play?
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:08.640
I think that when we look at our mental health, we look at the idea that a lot of things come from trauma, you know, our emotional dysregulation, our depression, or our anxiety.
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:21.039
A lot of the disorders that we talk about really have their roots in disorganized attachment from an early age, from parents, you know, substance abuse, all of these different things.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:30.000
And so if we have a more secure attachment that's coming from parents who are secure, we're gonna be able to deal with the ebbs and flows of life.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:36.079
Whereas if we don't have that, changes are gonna seem just so overwhelming.
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:37.279
That's a great point.
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:37.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:51.680
You know, and and so the enduring part of mental health is that idea of, you know, I can deal with days being good and I can deal with days being bad, and I can deal with people being up, and I can deal with people being down.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:59.920
But if I can't deal with that, I'm gonna have a lot more mood issues, and I'm gonna have a lot more dysregulation as a result.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:07.200
So what do we tell people that are listening that think secure attachment does not describe me?
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:08.160
Are they just stuck?
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:09.119
Is that just it?
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:11.359
That's probably not what I tell them.
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:14.079
Yeah, no, we just don't say anything.
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:14.799
Sorry, guys.
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:15.519
You know what?
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.359
The good news is neuroplasticity, and that is that the brain can change.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:27.519
And you know, in the 90s we thought that whatever you got, that's what you got, and you're stuck with, you know, you just needed to learn to cope.
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:28.559
That's not true.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:44.240
And so wherever you what wherever you're at, I would get curious about the areas that you're not as satisfied with, and then kind of maybe talk with somebody if you can take that risk to be able to be like, this is an area of my life that I'm struggling with.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:46.319
What what has been helpful to you?
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:56.000
Off topic kind of, but like what led up until the nineties to figure out that the brain was I think that one of the things is scans.
00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:56.640
Yeah.
00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:02.400
You know, we got more scans and we got we got to identify you know what was going on more in the brain.
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:02.880
Okay.
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:12.480
That was interesting because I was I was thinking about like the development of the body and how you know you start in this one little small package of something and you keep developing, growing, growing, growing.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:12.720
Yeah.
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.759
And you know, a reflection of the body is the brain as well.
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.680
Maybe that would be yeah, and I think that a lot of it was just assumptions.
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:20.000
Yeah.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:28.400
You know, they used to assume that kids came out as a blank slate and really didn't have any personality until like a year and a half, two years old.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:28.720
Yeah.
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:31.759
Well, now we see that that just can't be true.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:32.079
Right.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:33.279
But that was the assumption.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:33.519
Right.
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:42.480
And it was kind of like one of the reasons they tried to scare people not to use drugs is because, you know, if you killed those brain cells, that was all you got.
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.240
And I don't know where they came up with that.
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:45.920
You know, where it's a good tactic, though.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.720
Yeah, well, scare people, you know, get me off the crack.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.440
That idea that was like This is your brain on drugs.
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:52.240
That's right.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:53.599
I saw that egg flip through that.
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:54.400
I don't know.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:54.960
Thanks.
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:57.200
That's still what I think about during breakfast.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:11.359
But but that idea that, yeah, we can regenerate and we can, you know, become much more healthy through learning our stories, learning and and having like good nutrition and taking care of ourselves and having good self-care.
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:11.680
Yeah.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:13.920
All of those things, it's not just one thing.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:14.319
Right.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:18.559
You know, if somebody's going into it and being like, Well, I'm not so securely attached, that's fine.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:23.519
And it feels like it aligns with the story, the narrative of God above redemption.
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:24.000
Yeah.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:30.640
You know, it feels like that that makes more sense where these things sure there's brokenness here, but that doesn't mean it's brokenness forever.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:31.119
Right.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:45.599
Yeah, and that and the research is showing, which I find so fascinating, that if you have a more uh cognitive awareness of your story, you know, more of an understanding of where you've come from.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:54.480
And the things like a historical accuracy of that, sure, you know, the more accurate you can get, I think the better that is for your mental health.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:56.880
Yeah, it's it's more puzzle pieces, right?
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:57.200
Yeah.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:57.680
Like you have these.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:31:58.799
That's a great way to put it, right?
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:06.400
You're kind of just fragmented and you have a couple of these pieces, but like the more you can go back and actually, oh, this, you know, you you get a more of a more of a full picture.
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:06.880
Yeah.
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:07.839
That's really good.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:09.119
I like that metaphor.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:14.160
So I I made a list here, and you can help me with this, Mark, to see if they're actually true.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:17.519
Uh list of things that might help cultivate uh secure attachment.
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.720
So um notice what activates your attachment system.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:22.559
What is what was the trigger, right?
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:26.400
Uh pause before reacting to the story that your fear fear is telling you.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:29.200
Uh naming your emotion and the need beneath it.
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.240
I'm feeling angry.
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:30.640
Why?
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:32.480
What's what am I needing in this moment to not feel?
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:33.359
That's good.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:34.160
I like that one a lot.
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:40.000
Because um, and even like giving I trying to identify start with just even identify like how do you name it?
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:44.079
Because I think there's been times of like, I don't know what I'm feeling, I don't know how to name it.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.640
And like kind of hearing from other people.
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:53.599
Yeah, and a lot of times you know, if you can't come up with the name for your feeling, I always use that thing of like color.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:54.079
What color?
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:55.200
You guys use that the other night?
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:55.519
That was perfect.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:00.240
Yeah, well I wasn't sure like what I was feeling, but you're like, paint it, describe it.
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:07.599
So what color and that you know, instead of saying like I'm feeling and filling that in, what color would you give it?
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.640
Yeah, and then from there, what shape would you give it?
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:11.920
And what size would you give it?
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:16.480
That'll give you some ideas about what's going on and where are you noticing it in your body?
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.640
Another one is uh to make clear requests instead of testing people or expecting them to read your mind.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.359
I think it's always really good, just like set expectations.
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:28.720
How come?
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:29.359
How dare you?
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.400
Um practice receiving care without apologizing for having needs.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:35.440
That one's tough.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.119
Yeah, um, I struggle with that one for sure.
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:38.400
I'm always like, I'm so sorry.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:39.200
Yeah, me too.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:47.200
Um setting boundaries without using them as threats or punishments, uh, return to difficult convert conversations after taking space.
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:48.720
That's a healthy one.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:50.160
Yeah, that's a really healthy one.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:51.920
Okay, I just need to let me think through this.
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:53.200
We're gonna get back and yeah.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:56.240
And I think that's a challenge one in our culture of reactionary.
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.319
Yeah, like, and you need to have the answer now.
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.559
I'm like, yeah, that's so unhealthy.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:00.880
Yeah.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:05.759
I mean, there's moments where you have to react to get it, but like those are probably few far between, you know.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.320
Yeah, that space in between has so much power.
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:09.280
Oh, yeah.
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:09.920
Yeah.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:13.440
Another one is to learn to apologize specifically.
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:15.519
That one's interesting.
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:18.639
And I would put what do you mean specifically there, we think?
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:31.039
To so if if there's something that you feel the need to apologize for, that it's that and not a lot of times we're for the way that you're feeling or the way you've received what I said, or it could be that.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.159
Um, but I think sometimes we kind of apologize for existing.
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:39.679
Like, hey, I'm sorry that you know that I'm a person and like sorry, sorry, I'm who I am.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:40.400
Yeah, right.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:41.199
Okay, okay.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:41.519
Yeah.
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:49.039
And I I was gonna say, Walter, yeah, what I would put at the top of that list is practice all of these because it's not like they're gonna come naturally.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:49.840
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:50.159 --> 00:35:00.960
Like just practice one, or you know, go to somebody and say, like, I am like find somebody that's safe and go to them and say, I don't know, I'm kind of struggling with this and see what they say to you.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:08.079
Well, it's great that you said that because the next one is identify trustworthy people and gradually practice appropriate vulnerability.
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:09.599
So there you go.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:17.360
Um, and the last one on the list I had is seek professional support when old patterns feel overwhelming or repeatedly harm your relationships.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:21.280
So I think those can all kind of hopefully put us on the same on the right track, right?
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:22.960
Yeah, getting a few points.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:32.559
Um, so as we close today, I want to reiterate that secure attachment is not about having a perfect history, perfect relationships, or perfectly regulated emotions.
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:34.960
That's that mythical hundred that we talk about, right?
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:41.840
Um, it is really about developing the capacity to trust, to connect, to communicate, to regulate, and to repair.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:44.480
And maybe security sounds like this.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:48.880
I can be honest without believing honesty will always lead to abandonment.
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:53.519
And that's a tough statement for people to make sometimes because of their past, because of their history.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:55.920
I've I've said this and that person left, you know.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:01.599
Um, but I think it I think it gets us a little bit closer to what that security um is.
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:07.440
So uh thank you for joining us on this episode of With All Your Mind.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:16.320
In in our next conversation, we're gonna continue exploring attachment theory and consider what happens when closeness feels uncertain, unpredictable, or at risk.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:22.079
But in the meantime, continue caring for your relationships, your emotional well being, and your mind.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:26.960
Um, and just want to remind you all that we love you, God loves you, and God bless you.
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:27.920
We'll see you on the next one.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:28.800
See ya.
