Perfect Harmony w/ Yaron Schoen | Wireframe Live

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Kind: captions
Language: en
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Heat. Heat.
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Hey, good to see you. Thanks for coming.
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This is another episode of Wireframe
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brought to you by Design Systems House.
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I'm your host ND Autoto and today we're
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going to be talking about perfect
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harmony. And in order to do so, I have a
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very, very special guest with me today.
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Uh, his name is your own. Your own,
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thank you for being on the show today. I
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really appreciate it. Uh, and, uh, he's
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like Madonna Sinbad. It's just your own,
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right? That's how it it's the only one
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you'll even ever need to know. Your own,
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let the people know who you are out
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there and, uh, why you're so important.
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>> Thank you, Donnie. Uh I am Adono and I
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uh I'm a product designer. Uh work at a
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place called Service Now. Uh I focus on
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uh surprise surprise AI stuff, AI
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tooling. Uh specifically desktop AI
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stuff. Um and yeah, I've been doing
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design work since uh the turn of the
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century really. um live in Connecticut
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with my wife and two kids and silly dog.
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And happy to see you, Donnie.
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>> Yeah, happy to see you, too. Yeah. So,
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uh full full disclosure here, so your
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own and I used to work together at
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Compass. That's actually where we first
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met. And uh this is a thing that I I
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tell other people, but your own probably
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doesn't like to, you know, to hear it,
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but your own is the person that I find
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is my mentor when it comes to design. Uh
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so I don't know how he feels about that
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and I always feel like he's like ah
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that's or whatever but truly
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you know because we sat next to each
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other uh at Compass and he was you know
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such a senior uh kind of uh person kind
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of driving what design was at Compass. I
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really looked up to him and what we were
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doing over there. We we paired very
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deeply with the global navigation
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project. In fact that's where I think I
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I we did a lot of work one-on-one
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together. Um, what what was your, you
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know, like I guess feedback, I guess, in
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terms of the, you know, work I was doing
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with you?
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>> Terrible.
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>> Terrible. Yeah, I thought so.
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>> Just garbage. Uh, well, that's sweet of
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you to say. I I appreciate that. I loved
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working with you. Um, I um, yeah, we we
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did not It was not only the global
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navigation, we did a lot of work on the
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design system as well.
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>> Right. Right.
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>> Um,
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global navigation. Oh, boy. I forgot
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about that.
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>> You forgot about that.
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>> Yeah, that was a I mean, you reminded me
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now, but that that was that was that was
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that was a project.
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>> That was a project.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Uh yeah, I mean like you did it was
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great to have you because you know there
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was like before the design Oh, maybe not
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before, but there was like design
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engineering was not I guess it was a
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thing. I don't know. It was such a while
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ago, but um it was fun to have somebody
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that kind of bridges it. Another person
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that bridges it, by the way, is Joe. Joe
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Schmidt.
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>> Yep.
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>> Uh which, by the way, you should
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probably have him on.
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>> Yeah. Once he's settled into his new
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house, he's he's on his way moving
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somewhere.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Um so, but I I just love working with
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folks like that because it bridges like
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the the gaps and you know, you always
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added so like a lot of delight. It's
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hard to express. Well, in our previous
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tools, it's hard to Well, maybe they're
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current tools, too, but like for me, the
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previous tools were really hard to
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express
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motion interaction and stuff like that.
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And, you know, taking this static
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something and giving it to engineers and
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like, hey, do this or that. Or if even
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if I code, I'm not the best coder, but
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um, you know, to do all these kind of
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animations back then or interactions was
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pretty hard. So, it's it's always fun to
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have somebody that's like bridging those
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things and kind of understands both
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worlds and and you were that guy for me.
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>> Yeah.
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>> For me, for us really. Um,
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>> so that that that was fun. Yeah. Kind of
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miss it both days.
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>> Yeah. No, it was those were some great
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days actually. I I saw Monica Monica Lee
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a couple of months ago and she described
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it as lightning in a bottle. Like the
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way that like the just the the vibe and
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the and the culture over there,
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>> you know, it was incredible. Um, so
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yeah, from from from the design
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engineering perspective, right? Like I
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uh we at that time because you were kind
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of like figuring out was design
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engineering a thing back then. And it's
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actually really funny because I'm seeing
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posts on LinkedIn saying roles that
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didn't exist two years ago and I see
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design engineering under there. I'm like
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We we were around for a long
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time. And in fact, this is something
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that I actually uh I don't talk about a
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lot about, but it was important to me is
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that in high school, back in the class
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of 2001, which is when I graduated,
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there was, you know, class president,
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vice president, all other BS. When I was
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in in uh high school, I built the
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homecoming floats for my class. I
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designed them. I built them in a chicken
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wire, paperier-mâché, the whole thing,
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right? They they ended up giving me
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legitimately a title of our our class of
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design engineer. So I I might be one of
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the first people to ever actually have
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that title. Now granted, it wasn't a
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technical thing from a digital
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standpoint back then. Yeah. But um you
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know, design engineers were have been
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around for a long time. They're
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effectively what front-end engineering
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used to be or web design development
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used to be, right? And we've kind of
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bastardized all those roles at this
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point so that you know front engineering
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now all of a sudden means databasing and
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you're like no it doesn't right it's
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just like what did you people do so now
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we had to kind of create this whole new
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role called design engineering that now
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you know better describes the kinds of
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things that you know I was doing at
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compass and then eventually the um you
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know the uh you know the design system
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part of it um the you know it's funny
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about the uh the global nav um work how
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you know you saying that it was a lot of
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work. It was painful for me and not
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because of what you were doing but
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because of of the the lead front end
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basically giving me a lot of pressure
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about how to build it. So we who was the
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lead frontend guy at the time over there
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he was giving me a lot of pressure about
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okay it has to be built like this has to
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be done like this blah blah blah and it
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it did definitely like help me in terms
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of like you know leveling up my
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front-end skills but it was also like a
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lot of pressure uh because just like you
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know I I never
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was was on a project at compass at that
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time that was so like visible right
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because the global was on every page. So
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like there was so much pressure to make
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sure that it was done right and coming
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out of it I learned so much from you
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from wei from you know other folks in
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there. So, you know, if anybody else is
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doing a global navigation out there, uh,
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you're going to learn a lot. That's all
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I say in there.
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>> I'd argue that's probably one of the
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more important projects of the entire
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system, right? Because it's kind of the
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it's the taxonomy of the thing, right?
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And so,
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>> it's really important. We what a
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flashback. We was awesome.
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>> Yeah.
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>> It's good to have somebody that's like
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caring but strict,
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>> especially when you're kind of starting
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on on something. So, as long as it the
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strictness doesn't verge into nastiness,
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of course. But that he wasn't that way
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at all, right? He was
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>> he was caring, but he was strict and he
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didn't play around. And that's
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>> that's kind of that's sometimes that's a
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blessing.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Um it's funny like you I I actually
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researched about the design engineer
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too. Um recently I wrote a blog post
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about it. Um, I re redid my blog because
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like I can now ship things so easily
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with so I just built a CMS shipped uh re
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reshipped my blog. Uh, and I really
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don't know what it means. Design
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engineer. I have no idea what that
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means.
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>> It's it's it's
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I to me it's just everybody's kind of
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making it up as they go and that's cool.
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It's not there's no complaints. It's
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just to me that's it's not really clear
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to me that that's a real thing yet or
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like an agreed upon thing like product
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design for example but um and you're
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right like design engineer was outside
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of our field it's physical stuff that's
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been for decades I I would assume um and
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today I don't know where when we say
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front when we say it could be one of
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three things or multiple or or all three
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at the same time which
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It's either a designer that can code,
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>> right?
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>> That could literally code and now it's
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just like, you know, super, you know,
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like on steroids because of of of of
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AI tools or it's an engineer that can
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design,
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>> right?
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>> Right.
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>> Not a lot of those.
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>> Not. But there not a lot of both. Right.
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I mean, there there's a few, but there's
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I mean, not a few. That's probably a
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decent amount I guess.
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>> I mean, I'm think I'm thinking there's
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probably a lot of designers who can code
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from the days like like how I was,
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right? Because I was a designer that
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that was in, you know, the web that it
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was just like I need to make something
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and the way to make the something is in
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some cases code like all the people who
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are web designing, right? As opposed to
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an engineer which is I'm thinking like a
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CS guy,
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>> right? It's just like, you know, compsai
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and being like, well, I'm not designing.
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I'm just, you know, literally in a
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terminal, you know? I'm thinking of that
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difference.
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>> Sure. Yeah. I like it's also what does
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code mean? Because if it's like markup,
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I don't know if that's code, but
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>> you can really define that as code. And
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like when we say yeah, designers should
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I remember this is like decade and a
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half ago or some what I remember that
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that debate in the community about like
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should designers code
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>> and I was always Yeah. I'm always like I
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don't know, man. like maybe uh but um
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they should at least understand the
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medium
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>> right
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>> right like how to develop something but
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what where it's a slippery slope what
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does code mean can does the designer
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need to now ship
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um you know iOS apps like what is code
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are they like in the database developing
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I don't know a lot of designers that do
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that
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>> right
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>> um so when we say code yeah design I
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mean designers building HTML and CSS and
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maybe a JavaScript, ton of those,
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>> but there not a lot of them that can
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actually what what's it called? Swift.
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Not swift. That's that's the old one,
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right?
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>> Coplin, you know. I don't know.
00:11:16.880 --> 00:11:18.550
>> Yeah. I don't know iOS, so I don't have
00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:19.829
no idea.
00:11:19.839 --> 00:11:23.190
>> Yeah. Yeah. But like go find me a
00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:25.110
designer that could do that. I And then
00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:26.790
build the website and then build, you
00:11:26.800 --> 00:11:27.269
know,
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:28.550
>> Yeah. That's a lot.
00:11:28.560 --> 00:11:30.870
>> That's a lot. That's like a unicorn. And
00:11:30.880 --> 00:11:32.470
so,
00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.670
um, the other option is the a designer
00:11:35.680 --> 00:11:38.710
that uses AI to code,
00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:39.350
>> right?
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:41.269
>> Is that is that what a design engineer
00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.030
and I I suspect that's what it is?
00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:45.990
Because I keep on seeing so many like
00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:47.750
design engineer roles and design
00:11:47.760 --> 00:11:49.670
engineer being said all the time. I'm
00:11:49.680 --> 00:11:51.430
like, wait a second, where did all these
00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:54.550
unicorns come? Like is there a baby boom
00:11:54.560 --> 00:11:57.430
of unicorns that like all of a sudden
00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.790
these like designers can code,
00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:02.710
you know, all this all these apps and
00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:04.710
everything like that? No, I don't think
00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:06.710
so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.350
so. I think it's a a designer that can
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:13.030
use AI to code. But then why switch the
00:12:13.040 --> 00:12:17.190
title? Because if if if you know
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.190
designers are using let's say we're
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:21.990
we're transitioning out of Figma
00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.790
Then are we just still not just the
00:12:24.800 --> 00:12:27.110
product designers with a different tool?
00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.590
Why change why change the name of the
00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.310
role? It's confusing. But hey, look, I
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.470
don't control the the the industry.
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:36.949
>> Yeah, I think the roles overall have
00:12:36.959 --> 00:12:38.550
just been confusing for a really long
00:12:38.560 --> 00:12:39.910
time. And some people, you know, you
00:12:39.920 --> 00:12:41.670
used to have like was it website ninja
00:12:41.680 --> 00:12:43.670
or some you know, that were just
00:12:43.680 --> 00:12:45.670
making that stuff up before, you know,
00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:46.310
>> web master.
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:48.310
>> Web master. Exactly. So, like, you know,
00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.550
you you'd have lots of roles that were
00:12:50.560 --> 00:12:52.310
just like, you know, didn't didn't match
00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:53.750
up. I I think I was talking with
00:12:53.760 --> 00:12:55.590
someone. Yeah. I was talking with Joanne
00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:56.870
Weaver, who's a recruiter, design
00:12:56.880 --> 00:12:58.550
recruiter a couple weeks ago and
00:12:58.560 --> 00:13:01.430
explaining about how uh this particular
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:03.350
role was for like a design system. It
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:04.949
literally said design systems engineer.
00:13:04.959 --> 00:13:07.910
That was it. And in the role, they were
00:13:07.920 --> 00:13:11.190
asking me questions that were not of
00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.829
what I would expect my role to be as as
00:13:13.839 --> 00:13:15.350
a person who's been a design system
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.269
engineer, right? And I'm just like the
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.350
the mismatch was was uh very obvious and
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:22.870
where it's like people don't know what
00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:25.110
they want. So they're putting tiles
00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.190
almost like it was clickbait, right?
00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.030
It's like oh design engineer great I'm
00:13:29.040 --> 00:13:30.310
going to be a design engineer and and
00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:31.990
then you'll find out the role is like
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.629
not that. Either through the actual
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.190
description hopefully or through the
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.590
process in which you go through to find
00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:41.190
out well screw it they don't even know
00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:42.710
what they want either and you're wasting
00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.790
a whole bunch of people's time you know.
00:13:44.800 --> 00:13:48.069
>> Yeah. Yeah. Which is okay. Sometimes
00:13:48.079 --> 00:13:51.509
people need to Hey, at Compass have did
00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.430
we all always know everything? No.
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:54.550
>> No.
00:13:54.560 --> 00:13:55.829
>> Yeah. So, it's okay. Yeah.
00:13:55.839 --> 00:13:57.269
>> People people try.
00:13:57.279 --> 00:13:59.910
>> Yeah. Well, what I will say is that I I
00:13:59.920 --> 00:14:03.590
was very blessed and uh I guess what's
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:05.670
the word? I always forget the word for
00:14:05.680 --> 00:14:08.310
this, but I I
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:09.590
because I was involved with all the
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.829
hiring of the front engineers there. We
00:14:11.839 --> 00:14:14.230
had one of the best front end engineer
00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:15.829
teams on the face of the planet I think.
00:14:15.839 --> 00:14:17.509
And I'm not saying that to be, you know,
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.269
because I was a part of it. I'm saying
00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:21.269
that looking at other teams and going,
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.550
"What the hell is going on?" You know,
00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:26.550
>> they're great of you being around them.
00:14:26.560 --> 00:14:30.710
>> Yeah. Um so uh so yeah like that that
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.030
also plays a part obviously of having a
00:14:33.040 --> 00:14:36.230
really you know solid uh front-end team
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:38.629
that really understands like what's
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:42.069
necessary to make good products you know
00:14:42.079 --> 00:14:43.829
from a from a engineering standpoint for
00:14:43.839 --> 00:14:46.230
the for the user right
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.069
>> yeah um all right so uh we talked about
00:14:50.079 --> 00:14:51.910
compass enough I think let's talk about
00:14:51.920 --> 00:14:54.069
because that's God that was nearly eight
00:14:54.079 --> 00:14:58.069
years ago Jesus Christ goodness crisis.
00:14:58.079 --> 00:14:59.350
>> The eighth come.
00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:01.750
>> Yeah. I mean I Well, it's it's it's my
00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:03.910
seventh anniversary leaving just was
00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:05.990
like two months ago. So yeah, we're
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.430
we're we're coming up on the eighth
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:08.230
year.
00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:11.750
>> Um and uh now you know now it's uh we
00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:13.350
got different stuff going on, right? We
00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:14.710
have different things happening. We're
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:15.750
all different world.
00:15:15.760 --> 00:15:19.509
>> Yeah. So before the show you were talk I
00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:21.509
asked you how your how your family was
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.910
in particular your kids and and you told
00:15:23.920 --> 00:15:25.829
me something that I was like wow that's
00:15:25.839 --> 00:15:28.470
actually very progressive which was that
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:32.470
you kind of you know had your youngest
00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.430
go on to Claude and just create
00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:37.590
something. So would you mind sharing
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:39.750
that again uh for the show what what you
00:15:39.760 --> 00:15:40.470
did?
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:43.509
>> Sure. So, um, she came to me randomly
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:46.470
like two literally two days ago and she
00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.710
comes to me, "Dad, I don't know where
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.710
this came from, but like she's somewhere
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.710
some YouTube. I don't know what they're
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:54.310
doing, but
00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:59.430
>> they um she comes to me and she says,
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:01.509
"Dad, I have this amazing idea for an
00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.470
app." Like, oh my god, you sounds weird.
00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.470
Sounds like she's, you know, somebody in
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.430
the from the valley or something. and
00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.150
she she's like, I want to create a mood
00:16:12.160 --> 00:16:15.749
board app. And so
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.629
she she basic she she draws. She's I
00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:21.590
would consider somewhat of an artist and
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.150
I'm biased clearly, but I think she is.
00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:27.910
>> And she uh what she does is she collects
00:16:27.920 --> 00:16:29.430
images.
00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:31.590
We have restrictions of course on the
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.310
devices. So she can't just, you know,
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.870
collect any sort of image, but she finds
00:16:36.880 --> 00:16:41.509
images that are age appropriate and um
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.310
prints them out on our on our uh on our
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.829
printer and uses that as mood boards for
00:16:47.839 --> 00:16:50.550
her drawings. So she, you know, she gets
00:16:50.560 --> 00:16:53.990
inspired by coloring and shapes and and
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.790
kind of like that kind of or like
00:16:56.800 --> 00:16:59.829
illustration styles or whatever it is.
00:16:59.839 --> 00:17:03.670
and and so she's the way she does it is
00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:05.669
actually she she collects them and then
00:17:05.679 --> 00:17:08.069
she puts them in a Google doc
00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.470
>> and then she prints it and it's always
00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:12.150
like gh she doesn't like the you know
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:13.590
doing using Google
00:17:13.600 --> 00:17:14.230
>> okay
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.230
>> or and so are the Google docs and so
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:18.309
she's like let's that's she wants to
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:19.750
create a mood board for that a mood
00:17:19.760 --> 00:17:22.390
board app for that like great idea so
00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.069
she's sitting on like she's just like
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:25.750
okay let me build it because she sees me
00:17:25.760 --> 00:17:27.350
building things and she understands what
00:17:27.360 --> 00:17:29.669
AI is
00:17:29.679 --> 00:17:31.830
And so I'm like at some point I'm like,
00:17:31.840 --> 00:17:34.070
"Okay, fine. Let's do it together." Uh,
00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:35.990
but she wanted to do it alone. And so
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.390
what I did was I effectively sat her on
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.390
my we have desks over here in this
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.190
office. And she's she comes and she's
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:45.990
like, "Okay." So I put her down near me
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:47.909
and I'm like, "Okay." I give her the
00:17:47.919 --> 00:17:52.549
computer, open up Claude. Um, and I
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:54.549
first of course tell Claude, "Okay,
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.630
create a Claude.MD file." And um from
00:17:58.640 --> 00:17:59.990
here on out, you're going to be working
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.789
with a 9-year-old. So Claude like,
00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.350
"Chill, don't don't go over the board
00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:09.510
here." And so um and that's it. And she
00:18:09.520 --> 00:18:12.310
took over and she basically built a mood
00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:16.150
board app that pretty cool. It's like it
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:17.909
works. It's functional.
00:18:17.919 --> 00:18:20.870
>> Um it was very quick. So I was like,
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:23.430
"Okay, good. Put her here. Now she has
00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:25.270
something to do for a few hours. Now I
00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:26.870
can focus on my work
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.350
>> and within like 10 minutes less maybe
00:18:29.360 --> 00:18:31.190
five minutes she already has the
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.909
functioning thing and like I told you
00:18:33.919 --> 00:18:37.190
like my default engine or model is is
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.190
Fable and so I gave her to use Fable but
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:43.510
I don't know maybe that's a mistake but
00:18:43.520 --> 00:18:47.510
um and she created it really quick and
00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:49.750
but so the entire time the rest of the
00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:52.150
time she was basically tweaking the
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.789
features and like adding more
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.070
capabilities. It almost became a drawing
00:18:58.080 --> 00:18:59.190
tool as well.
00:18:59.200 --> 00:18:59.510
>> Yeah.
00:18:59.520 --> 00:19:01.669
>> Uh because she doesn't she doesn't know
00:19:01.679 --> 00:19:04.870
what scope is yet. So she
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.029
>> Yeah. I mean, how could she, right?
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:09.430
>> Yeah. So she learns. She'll learn.
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:10.789
>> Yeah. Just a child with imagination,
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.070
right? So you put the child with
00:19:12.080 --> 00:19:15.190
imagination in a in into a a environment
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:16.950
in which you could make anything. And of
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.230
course you're going to There is no
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.150
scope. Scope does not exist, right? It's
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.190
just like as far as the imagin can see.
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:25.510
She did say yesterday she's like, "All
00:19:25.520 --> 00:19:27.830
right, I'm done.
00:19:27.840 --> 00:19:29.750
>> This is it." Yeah. So, so I'm like,
00:19:29.760 --> 00:19:32.950
"Okay, great." And she decided two days
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.110
really and like not full days. It's just
00:19:35.120 --> 00:19:38.470
like, you know, and um
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.549
and she's like, "Okay, let's put put it
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.630
on the put it on the iPad." I'm like,
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.510
"Wait a second. How do we Okay, this is
00:19:45.520 --> 00:19:47.990
because it's just one HTML file.
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:49.430
>> It's not like this, you know, very
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.350
complex app or anything."
00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:55.190
And um of course we did not create an
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.669
iPad app uh yet or I didn't let her
00:19:57.679 --> 00:20:00.230
create the iPad app on her own. Uh she
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.430
doesn't know what was Swift or whatever.
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.630
>> Um and um it's not Swift. What's the
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.029
other word? Cobble. Cobalt.
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:10.630
>> Cotlin is the one the other one that I
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:11.669
know.
00:20:11.679 --> 00:20:12.470
>> Is that it? Okay.
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:16.310
>> Um I think so. Um and uh so I just
00:20:16.320 --> 00:20:18.310
uploaded it to to one of my servers. So
00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:19.669
she has it now
00:20:19.679 --> 00:20:22.950
>> as file. But crazy crazy.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:24.789
>> Yeah. No, it's awesome.
00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.390
>> Yeah.
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:28.630
>> Yeah. So that I mean that's that's
00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:30.789
great. I mean and and like it's
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.190
interesting about what you said about uh
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:35.510
you know her saying I'm done, right?
00:20:35.520 --> 00:20:38.310
Because I know that like I mean even
00:20:38.320 --> 00:20:41.270
even the we were talking before the
00:20:41.280 --> 00:20:43.750
before the show about wireframe and
00:20:43.760 --> 00:20:45.750
about the thumbnails that I need to need
00:20:45.760 --> 00:20:49.830
to fix, right? And I in the process
00:20:49.840 --> 00:20:52.070
right now of I had some feedback last
00:20:52.080 --> 00:20:53.990
night actually while I was out with uh
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.149
with um what was it the accessibility
00:20:56.159 --> 00:20:58.230
meetup and someone was telling me hey I
00:20:58.240 --> 00:20:59.909
really like all of your episodes but I
00:20:59.919 --> 00:21:02.070
can't find anything by topic. I'm like
00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:03.590
oh that's right I should like you know
00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:05.190
categorize by topic or whatever so you
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.110
could find some. So like there's always
00:21:07.120 --> 00:21:08.549
something more right there's always
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.909
something extra that you could be doing
00:21:09.919 --> 00:21:12.870
to improve an experience just overall.
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:14.710
So, like, you know, you know, be between
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:16.470
the the the category stuff, which is
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:18.390
what I'm working on right now, the
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:19.909
thumbnails, which I'll work on, you
00:21:19.919 --> 00:21:22.789
know, in the near future. Um, even we
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:24.070
were talking just before the show about
00:21:24.080 --> 00:21:25.750
adding potentially laugh tracks and
00:21:25.760 --> 00:21:27.190
stuff like that to the show just to go
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:28.870
ahead and give it some more personality.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.549
Like, all these things are just
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.029
additional things that I could do to
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:34.789
increase the, you know, the the the
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.230
quality of the this particular thing.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:39.590
Um, you know, it's almost like, you
00:21:39.600 --> 00:21:40.789
know, when do you stop? And the answer
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.029
is unfortunately never.
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:44.470
You need to add you need to add a drum
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.789
roll. That's a must. Oh my god. Just
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:48.310
imagine you're sitting with somebody.
00:21:48.320 --> 00:21:50.390
You give them the drum roll. If they say
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.230
something funny and they wouldn't even
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:53.510
know. They just all of a sudden they
00:21:53.520 --> 00:21:54.789
have a
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:56.310
>> No, they they wouldn't even know because
00:21:56.320 --> 00:21:57.750
they wouldn't hear it. Like the sound
00:21:57.760 --> 00:21:59.190
doesn't go back to them at the moment
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:00.630
and it's going to be even a more
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.149
annoying thing. But
00:22:02.159 --> 00:22:03.190
>> something like that and then all of a
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:04.789
sudden
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:06.789
>> Yeah. What? Yeah, I know. I'm there's
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.789
there I'm definitely going to figure out
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.710
what that looks like. But I have to I
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:14.549
just had to figure out like you know how
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:15.909
to fit it in because one of the things
00:22:15.919 --> 00:22:17.669
that you know I don't get an opportunity
00:22:17.679 --> 00:22:20.630
to talk about on the show is is the
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:22.470
production of the show
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.029
>> because what people see out there is for
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.350
example like they see the camera
00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:29.990
changing between shots as the thing is
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.149
going on and they think that you know
00:22:32.159 --> 00:22:33.750
there's editing or somebody else that's
00:22:33.760 --> 00:22:35.430
happening and no I'm I'm live editing
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.909
this like whenever I'm talking with you
00:22:37.919 --> 00:22:39.510
like I'm talking with you right now and
00:22:39.520 --> 00:22:41.190
my hands are up like this and the camera
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.590
changes is that's happening through a
00:22:43.600 --> 00:22:45.510
foot pedal that's below my desk to be
00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:47.990
able to change the camera angles as
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.510
we're talking. So, we're able to, you
00:22:49.520 --> 00:22:50.870
know, have this conversation, make it
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:52.950
engaging and interesting. But, in order
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:54.789
for me to have this conversation and
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:58.950
respond to you and edit the show live is
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.270
really challenging. So, now that I have
00:23:01.280 --> 00:23:04.310
that choreography down, now I can also,
00:23:04.320 --> 00:23:06.950
you know, think, okay, how do I add
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:08.549
another thing? So, like, okay, here's
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.470
the button for, you know, the the
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.310
applause or the boo or the wattwa or
00:23:12.320 --> 00:23:13.750
whatever. Like, that's a good spot for
00:23:13.760 --> 00:23:14.789
that. So,
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:15.270
>> yeah,
00:23:15.280 --> 00:23:16.870
>> I would love to have
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:17.990
>> more.
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.390
>> Yeah, I'm very impressed by by the whole
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.310
by the whole production. I mean, it has
00:23:22.320 --> 00:23:24.230
like a Nickelodeon vibe almost, right?
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.110
Or like not like visually like
00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:29.990
>> not not Maybe you should do the slime.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.430
>> Oh, yeah. The slime. That's That would
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.430
be perfect for the house. Exactly. Yeah.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:35.590
I the the thing that people say is they
00:23:35.600 --> 00:23:37.750
they think of it as like local access,
00:23:37.760 --> 00:23:40.310
like old local access kind of TV. That's
00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:42.630
the vibe they're getting. But, uh, going
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:43.909
off topic a little bit, I want to
00:23:43.919 --> 00:23:46.870
actually, you know, you reminded me of,
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:49.830
um, something that really stuck with me
00:23:49.840 --> 00:23:51.909
is one of the first things that you told
00:23:51.919 --> 00:23:53.110
me at Compass, I know we're going back
00:23:53.120 --> 00:23:55.350
to Compass, but, um, one of the first
00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:58.950
things that stuck with me was that, um,
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.149
it was related to responsive design, and
00:24:02.159 --> 00:24:05.029
it was this idea where you would have
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.830
people who, um, would remove features on
00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:12.470
mobile because they couldn't figure out
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.390
where to put them on mobile because they
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.789
claimed they didn't have the room. And I
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:17.990
remember you telling me very
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.350
specifically, I'll never forget it, that
00:24:19.360 --> 00:24:22.950
that was lazy. And I'm like, wait a
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:24.950
minute, you're right. That's lazy.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:26.950
Because if you're going to give the user
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.510
a feature, give the user a feature
00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:32.310
everywhere. Don't like, you know, be
00:24:32.320 --> 00:24:34.149
lazy and be like, oh, you got to go to
00:24:34.159 --> 00:24:35.990
desktop to do the thing, right? If
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:37.430
you're going to go ahead and provide a
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:39.510
mobile experience, provide an endto-end
00:24:39.520 --> 00:24:41.430
mobile experience. And that's stuck with
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:43.750
me a lot. So, thank you for that. And
00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:47.350
now whenever I'm looking at other
00:24:47.360 --> 00:24:48.789
screens when people are doing mobile
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:49.909
stuff and they're like, "Oh, we'll just
00:24:49.919 --> 00:24:51.350
hide that." I'm like, "No,
00:24:51.360 --> 00:24:53.350
>> no. Why Why' you put it there in the
00:24:53.360 --> 00:24:54.789
first place? If if we're just hiding it,
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:56.549
then just remove it entirely because
00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:58.549
clearly it's not important, you know?"
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.870
>> Right. No, that's fair. I mean, that's
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.669
what that's the mobile first
00:25:03.679 --> 00:25:06.149
design through mobile. That's really the
00:25:06.159 --> 00:25:09.510
that's that's really the the reason I
00:25:09.520 --> 00:25:12.149
think to to design through through
00:25:12.159 --> 00:25:14.070
through mobile first because you're
00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:17.990
designing really the whole thing there
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:19.190
which means that you got to fit
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:20.789
everything in there and like you know
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:23.029
all the all the all the features need to
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.070
be there and whatnot but I mean I guess
00:25:26.080 --> 00:25:28.470
but that people know that already but
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.029
>> back then that was maybe I don't know
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:34.390
but but um back then that was radical.
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.830
really. But yeah, I I mean to be fair
00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:41.029
when uh responsiveness was introduced, I
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:43.830
did the same. I I remember I had a I had
00:25:43.840 --> 00:25:48.470
a blog a blog that I kind of stylized
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.070
each blog post visually. Mhm.
00:25:52.080 --> 00:25:53.750
>> And
00:25:53.760 --> 00:25:56.549
and then we, you know, responsiveness
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:58.549
was introduced
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.470
and then I'm like, "Oh my god, well, how
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.110
am I going to because it was all these
00:26:03.120 --> 00:26:05.669
elaborate designs on desktop, right? And
00:26:05.679 --> 00:26:07.909
then I'm like, okay, how do I fit this
00:26:07.919 --> 00:26:09.269
now into mobile?"
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:10.630
>> So, what I did was I stripped the
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.630
styling and just had the post without
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.870
the styling. So, I did that, too.
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:15.350
>> Yeah.
00:26:15.360 --> 00:26:16.710
>> But I guess,
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.070
>> you know, from experience, I realized
00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:19.510
that's lazy. Mhm.
00:26:19.520 --> 00:26:21.430
>> Um,
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:25.110
so that's I stopped doing that.
00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:27.110
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, you know, again,
00:26:27.120 --> 00:26:31.590
like being able to recognize that,
00:26:31.600 --> 00:26:33.029
right? To be able to take a step back
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:34.789
and recognize
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.190
what you're doing could be better, I
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.190
think, is really just the mature
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:41.830
designer just generally, right? Like
00:26:41.840 --> 00:26:43.430
that's the thing that I feel like I'm
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:45.990
not seeing out there a lot, you know, in
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.830
in a lot of the a lot of the um you
00:26:47.840 --> 00:26:49.510
know, I'm just thinking of like, you
00:26:49.520 --> 00:26:50.630
know, what I'm seeing in like the the
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.669
the the social channels in in in overall
00:26:53.679 --> 00:26:55.669
and I'm looking at, you know, kind of
00:26:55.679 --> 00:26:57.510
like, you know, oh, what is it? Is is
00:26:57.520 --> 00:26:58.870
this design better or is this design
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:00.710
better? Like the AB kind of
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.630
that's out there and I'm just kind of
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.029
like, you're missing the plot, you know?
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:06.710
You're you're missing a whole bunch of,
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:08.870
you know, uh background, you know, are
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:11.110
you solving a problem? even like I think
00:27:11.120 --> 00:27:13.029
there was one that was like here are
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.789
three ways of putting in uh volume I
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.110
think it was like a volume you know um
00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:22.070
differences and each one of them had a
00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:25.430
like a very glaring problem that I was
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:27.590
like you didn't think this through.
00:27:27.600 --> 00:27:30.710
you're just, you know, finding existing
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.029
things, not realizing why they exist,
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:35.110
and then just kind of reskinning them
00:27:35.120 --> 00:27:36.390
and putting them out there thinking that
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:37.909
it's going to solve your problem, which,
00:27:37.919 --> 00:27:41.269
you know, is not not the way that I
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:43.029
learned from specifically from you and
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:45.669
others about how to who to do product
00:27:45.679 --> 00:27:48.789
design, right? there's a user that you
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:50.630
have to think about all the way in the
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:53.750
back um and bring them f up forward to
00:27:53.760 --> 00:27:55.909
go we're designing for this person and
00:27:55.919 --> 00:27:57.430
their needs and all that kind of stuff
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.029
not the thing that I'm looking at you
00:27:59.039 --> 00:27:59.669
know
00:27:59.679 --> 00:28:02.389
>> I don't even know how to at this point
00:28:02.399 --> 00:28:04.710
uh this is a bit hyperbolic I guess but
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:07.110
but it's kind of true which is I I
00:28:07.120 --> 00:28:08.470
really don't know how to evaluate a
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:09.909
design for just seeing something with a
00:28:09.919 --> 00:28:11.990
static visual image
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.470
>> because I don't know
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.510
how I is it what's the problem, how's it
00:28:17.520 --> 00:28:20.149
solving it, etc. You gota you got to
00:28:20.159 --> 00:28:22.070
know that first. You got to deeply
00:28:22.080 --> 00:28:23.590
understand the you like if if you're
00:28:23.600 --> 00:28:25.669
seeing stuff on social stuff and like
00:28:25.679 --> 00:28:28.470
what's better visually. That's the
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:30.230
that's kind of a clickbaity kind of
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.789
thing to to do. Like I don't how are you
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:34.710
going to even evaluate that?
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:36.470
>> It's impossible. You got to know what
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.310
the user needs and and and then to see
00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:43.269
if it it works. This is this goes I
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:46.070
guess back this goes to the Figma versus
00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:49.269
AI really topic. I I I I have
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:52.549
conversations about the about this topic
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:57.029
these days currently which is um
00:28:57.039 --> 00:28:59.990
>> yeah the Figma is is effectively a
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.389
static
00:29:02.399 --> 00:29:04.230
static app generator. Now it has of
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.710
course you know some AI AI prototyping
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.029
capability but it's not the same and so
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:14.149
uh if you could build things with with
00:29:14.159 --> 00:29:17.510
your AI let's say claude I just for the
00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:19.430
sake of conversation let's use cloud
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.710
values but um if you can use claude to
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:24.950
actually generate a real thing with a
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.870
database and actually use it um isn't
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:31.269
that a better way to evaluate your
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:33.269
design than something static and then
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.070
give it to the engineer and then wait
00:29:36.080 --> 00:29:39.590
weeks and then figure out only then if
00:29:39.600 --> 00:29:41.590
what when you use it and then you know
00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:43.269
that it's just the process doesn't make
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:44.389
sense to me anymore.
00:29:44.399 --> 00:29:44.950
>> Yeah.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:47.430
>> And so yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:49.029
>> No, nothing. I'm I'm just I'm agreeing
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:50.630
with you. I I think the interesting
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:53.269
thing about this in particular is that I
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:55.269
was I've talked to a couple of people
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:57.510
who actually still do keep Figma in
00:29:57.520 --> 00:30:00.549
their workflow specifically because of
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:04.070
the planning part of it. So for them,
00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:07.269
they want to have a plan and then
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:09.269
execute that plan. And the way that they
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:12.070
plan specifically is more visual. So
00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:13.830
they want to, you know, see the flow and
00:30:13.840 --> 00:30:15.350
see the screen as it goes from one to
00:30:15.360 --> 00:30:17.029
the next. And they're not necessarily,
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.350
of course, putting that, you know, Figma
00:30:19.360 --> 00:30:21.029
in front of the user. They're certainly
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:22.950
going to go ahead and build a thing so
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:25.190
that the thing that that eventually
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.430
comes up uh at the end is the thing that
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:28.710
you put in front of the user and then
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:31.029
can get feedback from. But I think a lot
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:32.870
of people are are you know from a a
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:36.549
visual standpoint uh are still enjoying
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.549
the canvas. We'll just keep that general
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:41.110
I suppose um and planning things in the
00:30:41.120 --> 00:30:44.549
canvas so that they can then execute you
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:48.870
know in in you know uh an AI or Mloud
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:51.990
kind of kind of way. How are you are you
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:53.909
doing like a plan mode? So are you
00:30:53.919 --> 00:30:55.190
basically doing like effectively a
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.789
markdown file or or how are you planning
00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:58.710
your projects?
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.630
Um
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:03.750
I don't do the canvas so I respect
00:31:03.760 --> 00:31:05.430
everybody has their own way of working
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:07.029
and we should respect all the ways of
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:08.950
working of course but
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:12.149
>> I don't see that I I just don't see it
00:31:12.159 --> 00:31:13.990
scalable anymore. I think it's kind of a
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:15.590
relic of the past.
00:31:15.600 --> 00:31:18.389
>> To me it could be look no I'm I could be
00:31:18.399 --> 00:31:21.190
wrong of course but to me this is it's
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:22.789
it's just habit.
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:24.870
>> Sure. Because when you say like, well,
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:27.350
oh, I'm a visual person, so I need to
00:31:27.360 --> 00:31:29.269
use a canvas.
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:33.269
What? Like you like a like Claude is not
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:34.389
going to produce something visual for
00:31:34.399 --> 00:31:37.509
you. So what is exactly that he need for
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:39.669
you to because it's not I'm a visual
00:31:39.679 --> 00:31:41.750
person. That's not the problem.
00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:44.070
>> So I need to use Well, AI is going to
00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:46.470
generate something visual for you, too.
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:48.630
>> So why what's the difference? The only
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:50.950
difference is that you're dragging it
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:52.630
with a mouse
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.630
>> and like trying to land on something
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:56.950
that was like maybe a happy mistake or
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.909
like just feel use your feel.
00:31:59.919 --> 00:32:03.590
>> I I prefer words and so I'd rather
00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:06.230
express what I want to do in words.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:06.549
>> Yeah.
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:08.950
>> And so it's the same outcome. You're
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:10.230
either dragging the thing and you're
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.430
going to produce a visual or you're
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:15.029
going to express it with words and
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:16.149
produce the visual.
00:32:16.159 --> 00:32:18.630
>> Right. So if some folks when they say
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:20.549
like, "Okay, I'm a visual person. I
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:24.070
gotta I gotta use the canvas." I don't I
00:32:24.080 --> 00:32:25.750
don't I don't It doesn't compute to me
00:32:25.760 --> 00:32:27.909
because we're both producing visual
00:32:27.919 --> 00:32:29.830
stuff. It's just the way we're producing
00:32:29.840 --> 00:32:30.789
it is different.
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:31.269
>> Yeah.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:33.990
>> Um and I find I've always said like,
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:35.669
well, if you can't express the design
00:32:35.679 --> 00:32:37.430
and what you're designing in words, then
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:39.110
what are you doing? Like how are you
00:32:39.120 --> 00:32:42.549
doing that? And so I think it's just
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:44.710
habit. Look, and you know, I've said
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:47.509
this before, you know, to you, but uh
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.389
the canvas is
00:32:50.399 --> 00:32:52.310
I may show my I may be dating myself
00:32:52.320 --> 00:32:55.350
here, but like, you know, I started, you
00:32:55.360 --> 00:32:57.590
know, when we started designing for for
00:32:57.600 --> 00:32:59.750
the web, there were no tools for web,
00:32:59.760 --> 00:33:00.149
>> right?
00:33:00.159 --> 00:33:02.310
>> There was like memeweaver or whatever,
00:33:02.320 --> 00:33:03.909
you know, but
00:33:03.919 --> 00:33:05.990
>> there were no and that was terrible.
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.269
>> And so you really just you wrote HTML,
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:12.149
right? And so, but if you wanted to see
00:33:12.159 --> 00:33:14.710
the visual stuff,
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.990
um, you know, I we got we we got
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.230
addicted to Photoshop.
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:20.789
>> Yeah.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.389
>> And and that transitioned really Figma
00:33:24.399 --> 00:33:26.710
is just a is effectively a derivative of
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:27.669
Photoshop.
00:33:27.679 --> 00:33:30.630
>> So, if you think about it, our tools are
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.430
derivatives of a photo editing app,
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:33.830
>> right?
00:33:33.840 --> 00:33:35.350
>> Which really doesn't make a lot of
00:33:35.360 --> 00:33:39.269
sense. it it it excludes so much of our
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.310
process. So much of our thinking is gone
00:33:42.320 --> 00:33:48.310
really. And so I I I I I'm embrace this
00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:50.630
change really because
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.269
the tools were not designed for what we
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:56.310
do really and we're still stuck in this
00:33:56.320 --> 00:33:58.870
relic of the past. Granted, Figma is
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.389
doing a really good job trying to kind
00:34:00.399 --> 00:34:02.950
of like bridge these gaps with all the
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.990
all the new AI AI features there. In
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.149
fact, the DNA is a canvas
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.629
>> and I don't know if that's what really
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:13.190
we should be using as as product
00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:15.109
designers because the visual is really
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.190
not the the the whole thing. There's so
00:34:17.200 --> 00:34:20.550
much architecture behind it that, you
00:34:20.560 --> 00:34:23.349
know, when you're playing around with
00:34:23.359 --> 00:34:25.510
with a canvas, you just don't get to
00:34:25.520 --> 00:34:27.669
express things like aptologies and stuff
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:29.990
like that, which, you know, we don't we
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:33.430
didn't we didn't use those words for for
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:36.069
so long because the tools didn't even
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:38.389
expose those things, right? But now AI
00:34:38.399 --> 00:34:40.310
comes and it's really based up a lot of
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.950
it is based onological thinking and so
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:44.470
now we're to do that.
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:44.790
>> Yeah. Yeah,
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:48.069
>> but the camp doesn't apply that. And so,
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:51.909
um I don't I don't know where I'm going
00:34:51.919 --> 00:34:53.349
with this, but that's
00:34:53.359 --> 00:34:55.510
>> No, I think I think honestly it was very
00:34:55.520 --> 00:35:00.950
well said overall. Um and the um Yeah, I
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.550
mean, first off, of course, it brings me
00:35:02.560 --> 00:35:04.950
back to what I was I was doing uh in
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.349
Photoshop, slicing up, you know, layouts
00:35:07.359 --> 00:35:09.430
that I would make in there, putting into
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:11.670
my tool at the time was Microsoft Front
00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:12.870
Page. I would put that in the Microsoft
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:14.150
front page and then make the websites
00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:15.829
from that. But very similar from like a
00:35:15.839 --> 00:35:18.150
dreamw weaver situation. Um, but yeah,
00:35:18.160 --> 00:35:20.390
you're you're you're you're definitely
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:24.230
right in terms of like I once I figured
00:35:24.240 --> 00:35:27.510
out how to code it myself, I basically
00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:30.230
got out of there myself because it was
00:35:30.240 --> 00:35:32.230
so much closer to the metal to go ahead
00:35:32.240 --> 00:35:34.310
and build this stuff out. And now, you
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:36.069
know, I well, not now, but moving
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.829
forward. I wrote gridless design about
00:35:39.839 --> 00:35:42.069
five or six years ago, which was
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.510
basically saying, folks, um, the web is
00:35:45.520 --> 00:35:48.230
not the traditional way that we would
00:35:48.240 --> 00:35:50.470
design, right? Because you would have
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:53.109
graphic design with like Photoshop and
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:55.829
you would need to make like the guides
00:35:55.839 --> 00:35:57.750
and the rulers and stuff like that to
00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:59.270
make sure everything was aligned. The
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.670
web has its own alignment. So every time
00:36:01.680 --> 00:36:03.510
that you put a grid on top of that
00:36:03.520 --> 00:36:05.670
thing, you're having these rules fight
00:36:05.680 --> 00:36:09.270
each other. And that's not what is going
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:11.030
to be a good result, right? Because
00:36:11.040 --> 00:36:12.230
you're just going to be fighting rules
00:36:12.240 --> 00:36:13.589
of the web with whatever rules that
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:14.470
you're trying to put on from
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:16.390
traditional, you know, design stuff.
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:17.910
This is new design that you have to
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:20.150
think of. And then, you know, the thing
00:36:20.160 --> 00:36:22.470
that I think is really
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:26.550
key in terms of how you're looking at
00:36:26.560 --> 00:36:29.750
this is with that that way that you
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.349
think of of design, which is
00:36:31.359 --> 00:36:33.430
specifically describing the thing in
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:35.030
words and what's the problem we're going
00:36:35.040 --> 00:36:38.870
to solve. There's so much out there of
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:41.910
people just designing from the visuals,
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:43.750
right? How pretty does it look? How
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:46.069
shiny does it look, right? there's no
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:48.550
problems to be solved every anywhere,
00:36:48.560 --> 00:36:51.430
right? We're seeing user research roles
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.510
just drop off the fla face of the earth,
00:36:53.520 --> 00:36:56.390
which is awful, right? Where we really
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.230
should be relying on the research of the
00:36:58.240 --> 00:36:59.510
users that were, you know, of the folks
00:36:59.520 --> 00:37:01.349
that we're getting out there to actually
00:37:01.359 --> 00:37:03.190
understand the problems and understand
00:37:03.200 --> 00:37:05.109
what those design the solutions for
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.910
them, not visually. It's it's the form
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:10.390
follows function like core, right?
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:12.069
What's the function? What are we solving
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:13.510
here? And then we put the form out. We
00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:15.030
put it, we make it because making it
00:37:15.040 --> 00:37:16.710
pretty, especially from a design system
00:37:16.720 --> 00:37:20.150
perspective is solved, right? Design
00:37:20.160 --> 00:37:22.790
tokens, round the corners, you know, uh
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:24.710
change the color, whatever. We do that
00:37:24.720 --> 00:37:26.550
at the end. We do that at the end. The
00:37:26.560 --> 00:37:28.710
the the thing that we really need to do
00:37:28.720 --> 00:37:30.310
right now, the thing that needs to have
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.790
all the focus is is solving the problem.
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:35.349
And I think you're right about, you
00:37:35.359 --> 00:37:37.349
know, the the word part about the
00:37:37.359 --> 00:37:39.430
ontology parts about it, which is
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.349
basically saying, you know, let's
00:37:41.359 --> 00:37:44.470
describe what we're trying to do, right?
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:48.150
And that's not necessarily visual.
00:37:48.160 --> 00:37:50.790
That's information architecture and
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:52.870
definitions and describing intent. And
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.550
there's nothing really visual about
00:37:54.560 --> 00:37:57.030
that, but it's not sexy, right? And I
00:37:57.040 --> 00:37:58.150
think that's the thing that people are
00:37:58.160 --> 00:37:59.589
being adverse to maybe.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.829
>> Yeah. I think I think um the visual kind
00:38:03.839 --> 00:38:06.390
of aspect well first of all just to if
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.230
folks don't really know what an ontology
00:38:08.240 --> 00:38:10.069
is just as a quick
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:13.030
>> it's it's effectively the objects of of
00:38:13.040 --> 00:38:15.589
your product and the relationships
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.829
between those objects really
00:38:17.839 --> 00:38:21.270
>> and so uh just as two two short
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:22.950
sentences but you can always Google the
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:26.310
the word later but um
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:30.310
so I I to me I think a lot of this is
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:32.550
stems from this is from my perspective
00:38:32.560 --> 00:38:35.510
and from my from my experience. I think
00:38:35.520 --> 00:38:38.069
a lot of this stems from, you know, that
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:41.589
our field, our the design part of our
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:45.030
field kind of stemmed out of print
00:38:45.040 --> 00:38:46.310
design in a way,
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:46.950
>> right?
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:51.109
>> And I I remember when I started um you
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.069
know, working on the web, you know, I I
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:56.550
used to tell folks, you know, I'm a I'm
00:38:56.560 --> 00:38:58.390
a designer.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.190
Um and they're like, "Oh, like a print
00:39:01.200 --> 00:39:03.030
designer, right?" And and I'm like, "I'm
00:39:03.040 --> 00:39:05.190
not a web designer." up and like what a
00:39:05.200 --> 00:39:09.349
what? and and we were always looked down
00:39:09.359 --> 00:39:12.550
on like we were always like that's not
00:39:12.560 --> 00:39:15.670
real design and so you know we always
00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:18.950
kind of tried to aspire to being you
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:21.510
know so like like print designers like
00:39:21.520 --> 00:39:25.109
when I there's a whole decade or so I
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:28.230
would say of websites that looked like
00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:31.589
print brochures and stuff like that
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:34.230
>> and which I to this day loved. I thought
00:39:34.240 --> 00:39:35.990
that was a golden age of visual design
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.589
in in the web. But but in a way that was
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:41.430
so it was great and it got everybody
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:43.990
kind of into into like web design. And
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:45.750
then there was Flash. So we kind of made
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:47.270
all these experiences that are very
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.750
visual and like all that kind of stuff,
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:51.670
but it steered away from the actual
00:39:51.680 --> 00:39:53.750
thing that we were supposed to be doing,
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.390
which is there's a lot of architecture
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:57.990
that needs to happen behind the scenes,
00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.510
especially all these products that we're
00:39:59.520 --> 00:40:02.390
building. And we kind of veered away
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:05.190
from that. Uh, which is kind of a shame
00:40:05.200 --> 00:40:07.270
because now
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:10.230
when I I I feel like AI tools are
00:40:10.240 --> 00:40:13.589
actually exposing this kind of drift
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:14.470
away
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.030
>> where we we now really need to focus
00:40:17.040 --> 00:40:19.829
back on on like what the actual project
00:40:19.839 --> 00:40:22.390
the the work the the role is about which
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:26.069
is structuring information. It's not
00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:29.510
making the prettiest thing even and it
00:40:29.520 --> 00:40:30.870
doesn't Yeah. like you said, it doesn't
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.589
it's not as sexy as like
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:37.270
um making the coolest um you know flash
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.470
website, but we're supposed to structure
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:42.870
information and structure it in a way
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:46.230
that's the easiest for them to consume,
00:40:46.240 --> 00:40:48.870
right? That's really the role. and and
00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:51.510
and if and and when and when things
00:40:51.520 --> 00:40:53.109
become more and more and more and more
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:54.630
complex and you're working on these
00:40:54.640 --> 00:40:57.349
massive things like like GoDaddy or at
00:40:57.359 --> 00:41:00.550
Service Now, these are massive systems,
00:41:00.560 --> 00:41:04.630
right? And the job is to make sure that
00:41:04.640 --> 00:41:06.790
when the user gets there, they can
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:08.309
consume the information and get out
00:41:08.319 --> 00:41:09.990
because no one really wants to sit all
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:12.150
day on a Service Now app. They want to
00:41:12.160 --> 00:41:14.470
do their job and go like they're not
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:16.150
they have a life. Everybody has a life,
00:41:16.160 --> 00:41:20.230
right? And so we need to make it super
00:41:20.240 --> 00:41:22.630
simple. And you can't
00:41:22.640 --> 00:41:24.870
that's if you're going to start with I
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:27.750
need to figure out visually
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:30.390
that's not the job. You're starting from
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:33.030
the wrong place. The the place should be
00:41:33.040 --> 00:41:35.430
the structure of the information.
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:38.870
And these canvas tools are not the tools
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.710
for that because they're effectively
00:41:40.720 --> 00:41:43.589
visual tools. So of course if you're a
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:46.390
hammer everything's a nail. And so, you
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:48.309
know, if the tool is a visual tool
00:41:48.319 --> 00:41:51.349
inherently, we've created an entire
00:41:51.359 --> 00:41:55.510
ecosystem of visual designers and then
00:41:55.520 --> 00:41:57.829
we need to structure the information.
00:41:57.839 --> 00:41:59.270
Who's going to do it? We're going to
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:01.589
hand it off to the information architect
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:04.950
>> or the or who the product manager or
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.349
what? No, that's so then what
00:42:07.359 --> 00:42:09.190
effectively it's almost shooting
00:42:09.200 --> 00:42:10.710
ourselves in the foot. Like we hate when
00:42:10.720 --> 00:42:13.109
we're like stop telling me to make the
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:15.349
logo bigger or make the thing pink or
00:42:15.359 --> 00:42:18.630
whatever it is, but if that's the tool
00:42:18.640 --> 00:42:20.790
and that's what you want to like how is
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:23.349
somebody that's not a designer,
00:42:23.359 --> 00:42:25.430
they see what we do, right? And we see
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:27.430
the tools and the outputs that we make,
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:29.589
what are they supposed to expect?
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:31.670
>> Well, like it's a visual thing. And
00:42:31.680 --> 00:42:32.950
you're talking all the all the time
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:35.670
about visual stuff. And so, of course,
00:42:35.680 --> 00:42:37.430
I'm generalizing here. Not everybody's
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:41.430
like that. But but um but uh yeah, I
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:43.349
mean that's and this is why I think it's
00:42:43.359 --> 00:42:45.670
such a bless to me. This is a golden age
00:42:45.680 --> 00:42:49.430
for designers for I can't speak for
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:51.349
designers. I'd speak for product
00:42:51.359 --> 00:42:53.190
designers just to be clear like
00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:55.910
designers could mean anything but um and
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:57.670
I don't know if AI is the perfect thing
00:42:57.680 --> 00:42:59.910
for print design. I can speak for that.
00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:01.990
But for product designers, this is like
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:05.510
a golden age really for for us because
00:43:05.520 --> 00:43:07.670
we could just expose what what you know
00:43:07.680 --> 00:43:11.829
what um sorry I got a phone call. Um we
00:43:11.839 --> 00:43:15.270
can expose the you know it exposes the
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:17.750
what it provides the ability for us to
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:19.990
actually think properly. That's kind of
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.430
what it's doing.
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:22.630
>> Yeah.
00:43:22.640 --> 00:43:24.550
>> Yeah. I I I like what you're saying
00:43:24.560 --> 00:43:26.470
there for sure. I think, you know, the
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:29.510
the this whole focus that we're seeing
00:43:29.520 --> 00:43:34.069
on AI where a lot of the work that we're
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.510
doing, whether you're a product designer
00:43:35.520 --> 00:43:39.670
or really anyone in tech now, you're in
00:43:39.680 --> 00:43:42.550
many cases being forced to explain
00:43:42.560 --> 00:43:44.309
yourself because if you don't explain
00:43:44.319 --> 00:43:46.710
yourself, then you get garbage at the
00:43:46.720 --> 00:43:48.790
end, right? Garbage in, garbage out. So
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:52.069
now you're trying to do the best job
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.030
possible in explaining what needs to be
00:43:55.040 --> 00:43:58.790
done in words uh to get the the right
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:00.710
output. So I you're I think you're right
00:44:00.720 --> 00:44:02.470
in terms of the the golden age of of
00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:06.470
trying to you know improve our practice
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:09.270
of of designing. Absolutely. And by the
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:13.589
way, like it's I get the the you know I
00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:16.230
and I I feel the same feel where it's
00:44:16.240 --> 00:44:18.950
like oh my god everything looks the same
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:21.030
>> and like you know I'm an aesthetic guy
00:44:21.040 --> 00:44:23.430
too. I like aesthetics. I come from that
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:27.270
really. But um
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:29.270
I don't know patience, you know, we're
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:30.630
just starting with this kind of these
00:44:30.640 --> 00:44:32.950
tools and yeah, I mean there's it's it's
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:35.990
e and flows, right? And so things are
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.309
going to start looking the same and I
00:44:38.319 --> 00:44:40.230
guess that's that's fine because we're
00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:41.589
like learning from each other and
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:43.349
patterns exist for a reason.
00:44:43.359 --> 00:44:47.670
>> Yes. Um and and and so
00:44:47.680 --> 00:44:50.790
um but I'm optimistic because I mean
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:54.069
these tools are insane. So yeah, things
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:55.670
may look start looking the same, but I
00:44:55.680 --> 00:44:57.510
don't think it'll be like that forever,
00:44:57.520 --> 00:44:57.990
>> right?
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.870
>> And you know, so you know, let's let's
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:02.470
be optimistic about it.
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:04.470
>> Yeah. Yeah. I and you know, I think this
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:06.870
the same way about, you know, the
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.030
patterns existing for a reason, right? I
00:45:09.040 --> 00:45:10.630
mean, like the fact that everything does
00:45:10.640 --> 00:45:12.790
look the same, I I think is actually
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:15.349
helping out users at the end, right?
00:45:15.359 --> 00:45:17.270
Just because they know what to expect as
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:19.670
opposed to being like, "Oh, here's this
00:45:19.680 --> 00:45:21.430
wild new pattern that that came out
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.270
because I need to be so far away from
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:25.510
what AI is doing." Like, that's not
00:45:25.520 --> 00:45:28.470
really a that's never really been a good
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:30.150
uh direction. Sure, if you go ahead and
00:45:30.160 --> 00:45:32.630
you go on to, you know, the ward sites
00:45:32.640 --> 00:45:34.069
or whatever and you want to make some
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:36.630
fancy pattern that only 10 12, you know,
00:45:36.640 --> 00:45:39.109
people use, fine, whatever. But for in
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:41.270
mass, if you want to have a product that
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:44.470
you expect people to use, it has to be
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.790
clear in order and and and how that's
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.710
supposed to be used. And if it just
00:45:48.720 --> 00:45:50.470
looks like the other site that they were
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:52.230
just on, yeah, they were just on that
00:45:52.240 --> 00:45:53.510
site, they used it, they know how it
00:45:53.520 --> 00:45:55.910
works, and they can continue on without
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.430
having to figure anything out, without
00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:59.589
any of that friction. So the
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:01.910
repetitiveness is a good thing
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:04.710
fundamentally, but I also do agree with
00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:07.829
you in terms of like, yeah, I'm also
00:46:07.839 --> 00:46:10.550
potentially bored of the same looking
00:46:10.560 --> 00:46:12.710
thing, you know, from a marketing
00:46:12.720 --> 00:46:14.470
standpoint, right? If this is a
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:16.309
marketing situation and I'm trying to,
00:46:16.319 --> 00:46:17.829
you know, you're trying to elicit an
00:46:17.839 --> 00:46:21.270
emotion uh of like professionalism and
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:23.910
luxury or or what have you, sure, the
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:26.630
marketing part of that page, have a good
00:46:26.640 --> 00:46:29.190
time, right? But when you get to the
00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:31.829
productivity side of that thing, just
00:46:31.839 --> 00:46:34.309
keep it simple. Like let's not be cute,
00:46:34.319 --> 00:46:35.990
let's not be clever, just keep it
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:38.470
simple. Uh you know, align with the best
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:41.030
practices and they are already well
00:46:41.040 --> 00:46:43.270
documented across the internet, right?
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:45.109
There there's no reason for you to go
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:47.349
ahead and try to reinvent any any skills
00:46:47.359 --> 00:46:50.069
here uh from this particular standpoint,
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:51.190
you know.
00:46:51.200 --> 00:46:52.470
>> Yeah, I agree.
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:57.589
>> Yeah. Um, what what are you how are you
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:00.470
using AI yourself? Because we asked, you
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:01.829
know, we we found out about how your
00:47:01.839 --> 00:47:04.069
youngest is using AI. What about you?
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:06.309
>> I'm not using way not using that.
00:47:06.319 --> 00:47:06.790
>> Yeah.
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:08.309
>> Um,
00:47:08.319 --> 00:47:11.750
how am I using it? So, well, I I haven't
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:14.550
opened a canvas-based app in a year.
00:47:14.560 --> 00:47:14.870
>> Okay.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:21.510
>> Uh, probably probably more. Um I just
00:47:21.520 --> 00:47:23.349
how am I using that's a great question.
00:47:23.359 --> 00:47:25.349
I you know I don't it's so intuitive
00:47:25.359 --> 00:47:27.109
that at this point you don't ne always
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:28.309
think about it.
00:47:28.319 --> 00:47:32.069
>> Uh but um
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:35.510
so from so
00:47:35.520 --> 00:47:37.589
it's a great question. Well, it depends
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:38.870
on what.
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:39.750
>> Okay.
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:42.790
>> Well, it really depends where what like
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:45.349
what am I what am I doing? What stage of
00:47:45.359 --> 00:47:47.510
the project I'm on? What what exact I
00:47:47.520 --> 00:47:49.190
assume you're talking about projects.
00:47:49.200 --> 00:47:49.589
Yeah.
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:52.390
>> Or like things things to build, but
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:57.990
>> um well, it depends. So, um I like to I
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:00.550
I I really have like three key things I
00:48:00.560 --> 00:48:03.430
guess three three pillars I would say is
00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:05.990
>> there's there's like injecting enough
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.710
context, guidelines, rules and stuff
00:48:08.720 --> 00:48:09.910
like that,
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:11.589
>> right? And we could dive into that
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:12.710
topic.
00:48:12.720 --> 00:48:16.790
>> Um then there is establishing
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:20.150
onto ontologies, structure, architecture
00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:22.309
and stuff like that. Mhm.
00:48:22.319 --> 00:48:24.549
>> And then there is the feedback loop.
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:25.750
>> Okay.
00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:28.549
>> And so that's kind of the pillars of
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:30.790
kind of how I operate in general. And
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:33.030
then it eb and flow. It depends where
00:48:33.040 --> 00:48:37.270
I'm what stage I am in the project.
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:40.470
>> Uh but uh those are kind of like the the
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:42.470
key guy the key stuff, right?
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:46.150
>> Yeah. Um, and so the context guidelines
00:48:46.160 --> 00:48:49.270
and rules I would say are of course
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:51.430
usually in the beginning, but you you
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:53.190
kind of like always kind of update that
00:48:53.200 --> 00:48:54.309
as you go.
00:48:54.319 --> 00:48:56.390
>> And this is the obvious stuff is like a
00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:59.750
claw.md or a design.md or whatever it
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:01.829
is, right? But it's way more than that
00:49:01.839 --> 00:49:04.950
of course, but uh those just as simple
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:07.430
examples. Um then you establish that in
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:11.030
the beginning of the project and then um
00:49:11.040 --> 00:49:13.670
and then and then as you go through
00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:15.430
these things you start developing
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:18.309
ontologies and architectures and stuff.
00:49:18.319 --> 00:49:20.790
Um, I would plug my app that I built,
00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:23.349
but it's it's effectively because there
00:49:23.359 --> 00:49:27.109
is no I got to a point where it's like
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:31.430
context and guidelines and rules.
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:33.030
>> You can create you can write them down
00:49:33.040 --> 00:49:34.870
or you could tell Claude to write it or
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:37.829
you could pull in um, you know, research
00:49:37.839 --> 00:49:39.990
documents or any sort of context that
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:41.670
you have on the project that that's
00:49:41.680 --> 00:49:44.230
that's established. There's no you know
00:49:44.240 --> 00:49:45.670
no problem with that. And then you also
00:49:45.680 --> 00:49:47.670
have the visual stuff which are the tail
00:49:47.680 --> 00:49:50.390
end of the project which is either you
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:54.710
use your canvas or you use your design
00:49:54.720 --> 00:49:57.109
system or you use a you know
00:49:57.119 --> 00:49:59.349
plug-andplay design system like whatever
00:49:59.359 --> 00:50:00.069
you know
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:02.150
>> uh shots again or whatever it is
00:50:02.160 --> 00:50:04.069
>> and then style it later so it doesn't
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:06.870
look the same and then um so that all
00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:09.589
exists. what doesn't exist really is is
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.790
is a tool to actually develop an
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:15.430
autotology and architecture
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:19.270
uh site mapping wireframe stuff. Uh so I
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:21.190
created an app called denote effectively
00:50:21.200 --> 00:50:24.630
that does that really um and I use that
00:50:24.640 --> 00:50:26.790
really that's if I'm starting a new
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:29.589
project it's if it's a zero to one
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:32.630
project I'm starting on denote because
00:50:32.640 --> 00:50:35.670
it it helps me one creates what what it
00:50:35.680 --> 00:50:38.710
does there it creates like a PRD
00:50:38.720 --> 00:50:41.270
right so
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:43.589
it it effectively creates the cont it
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:45.270
helps you create the context and the
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:46.790
guidelines and all that stuff you can
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:49.349
pull in all your your your your your
00:50:49.359 --> 00:50:51.750
external material and whatnot. But then
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.230
once you have that established,
00:50:54.240 --> 00:50:58.309
it then pulls out a structure from that
00:50:58.319 --> 00:50:59.910
kind of mess of the thinking. Right.
00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:02.950
Right. And then it creates the objects,
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:05.589
the relationships between those objects.
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:08.790
So for example, if I'm creating a recipe
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:10.549
blog, whatever.
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:12.950
>> Clearly that's an easy example on
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:15.829
purpose. I don't believe recipe blogs
00:51:15.839 --> 00:51:18.710
all day, but um if I'm creating a recipe
00:51:18.720 --> 00:51:21.990
blog, an easy object would be the
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:23.190
recipe,
00:51:23.200 --> 00:51:23.589
>> right?
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:27.430
>> Or the ingredient or
00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.390
um you know or or
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:33.829
um another object would be a user. So
00:51:33.839 --> 00:51:37.270
the the the entity is the objects have
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:41.670
entities, users and and and tasks,
00:51:41.680 --> 00:51:46.870
flows. And so um I kind of denote and I
00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:48.309
the way that I think I need to fill
00:51:48.319 --> 00:51:50.309
those up. So before I'm doing any sort
00:51:50.319 --> 00:51:53.270
of visualization or whatever it is, I
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:55.430
need to know what the objects are that
00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:58.710
I'm working with. So, you know, if I'm
00:51:58.720 --> 00:52:00.790
building a recipe blog, the easy thing
00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:02.470
is the, you know, like I said, the
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:04.790
recipe and and an ingredient. What's the
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:08.950
relationship between them? Um, and and
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:11.430
then you have the users and then the the
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:14.790
tasks. So, does the user which user uses
00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.510
the the the ingredients and which user
00:52:17.520 --> 00:52:19.670
uses the recipe? Maybe bad example, but
00:52:19.680 --> 00:52:21.750
you get my point, right? And then
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:22.950
because you have multiple different
00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:24.390
users, they may have you may use
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:25.910
different entities and then then they
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:28.710
have also different tasks and and flows
00:52:28.720 --> 00:52:31.190
to to accomplish what they need to do.
00:52:31.200 --> 00:52:34.069
And so there's no real good tool that
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:35.910
that does that today because we are so
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:37.109
focused on the canvas,
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:37.430
>> right?
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:39.270
>> Canvas doesn't give you that. The canvas
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:41.190
gives you an empty canvas where you can
00:52:41.200 --> 00:52:44.390
play around and which is great for folks
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:46.710
and that's that's fine and but for me
00:52:46.720 --> 00:52:48.950
it's not great because I don't think
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:51.270
visually first. I think structure first
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:55.430
and so um the the canvas doesn't
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:57.670
actually give me that structure. It's
00:52:57.680 --> 00:53:01.270
all in our heads all the time. And um
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:03.109
and it's always kind of hard to it's
00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.910
like our it's intuitively in our like we
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:07.270
kind of know that that's what we're
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:08.470
doing when we're playing around with a
00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:09.589
canvas.
00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:11.990
>> You know, design this really nice recipe
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:14.309
that has ingredients. kind of know that
00:53:14.319 --> 00:53:17.349
the ingredients is an entity that's that
00:53:17.359 --> 00:53:20.870
has a relationship to the recipe,
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:22.710
>> but we don't talk about that. That's not
00:53:22.720 --> 00:53:25.030
a thing that we actually, you know,
00:53:25.040 --> 00:53:26.790
intentionally express.
00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:28.309
>> Yeah. It's kind of assumed,
00:53:28.319 --> 00:53:28.870
>> right?
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:33.829
>> It's kind of assumed and and I I I that
00:53:33.839 --> 00:53:36.790
has been always my challenge with with
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:40.069
these cannabis based apps. And so
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:42.790
that's kind of how I use the AI. I I I I
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:45.750
basically provide enough context in the
00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:47.030
beginning. Here are the rules. Here's
00:53:47.040 --> 00:53:49.910
what how I operate. Here whatever it is
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:52.390
and then I tried to create structure.
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.870
Then the visualization is after after
00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:57.030
that like the this not the visual the
00:53:57.040 --> 00:53:58.390
aesthetics is after that
00:53:58.400 --> 00:53:59.589
>> right
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:01.829
>> we have these objects and whatnot and
00:54:01.839 --> 00:54:03.510
then
00:54:03.520 --> 00:54:05.349
worth mentioning also that like those
00:54:05.359 --> 00:54:07.589
objects need to be structured in some
00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:11.589
sort of architecture and so my tool also
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:14.230
helps create that architecture. So
00:54:14.240 --> 00:54:15.589
creates the site map, creates the
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:17.190
navigation between them, creates the
00:54:17.200 --> 00:54:20.390
global nav stuff that if we had to know
00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:21.109
back then.
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:22.150
>> Oh,
00:54:22.160 --> 00:54:25.510
>> if we only did.
00:54:25.520 --> 00:54:28.150
>> So that's kind of it does it helps it
00:54:28.160 --> 00:54:30.790
helps me think through those things and
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:32.390
then creates like the structure of the
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:33.990
wireframe and then we could just apply
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:36.630
styling and that's the like the fun kind
00:54:36.640 --> 00:54:38.549
of like cherry on the top on the you
00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:40.950
know on the cherry on the icing or icing
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:43.750
on the cherry or whatever it is.
00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:45.349
Um,
00:54:45.359 --> 00:54:46.630
>> yeah. And then and then there's the
00:54:46.640 --> 00:54:48.069
feedback loop.
00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:49.670
>> Yeah. Yeah. I want to ask about the
00:54:49.680 --> 00:54:52.150
feedback loop for you. Um, because I
00:54:52.160 --> 00:54:54.150
don't think, you know, certainly there's
00:54:54.160 --> 00:54:55.430
designers out there that are just
00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:56.710
designing and they're just, you know,
00:54:56.720 --> 00:54:59.109
checking stuff out and and, you know,
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:00.630
you know, vibing out of their minds or
00:55:00.640 --> 00:55:02.230
whatever. You know, they're making
00:55:02.240 --> 00:55:05.910
stuff, but I think there's uh a very big
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:08.870
gap about, you know, evaluating if this
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:12.069
thing is good or not, right? So is is
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:13.990
that what what's the part of the process
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:15.510
for you in there?
00:55:15.520 --> 00:55:18.710
>> Well, once we have a structure, so to
00:55:18.720 --> 00:55:21.829
like slop could mean many things. So I
00:55:21.839 --> 00:55:23.910
don't know how folks what they think
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:26.630
slop is. To me, slop is effectively two
00:55:26.640 --> 00:55:29.430
things. It's bizarre structure and
00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:32.870
entity modeling and just visually the
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:35.829
aesthetics look kind of sloppy. Mhm.
00:55:35.839 --> 00:55:38.950
>> Um, aesthetics is much easier to solve.
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:42.630
>> But when you have a weird entity model,
00:55:42.640 --> 00:55:45.910
>> good luck. Like restructuring that and
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:47.990
then telling the AI, wait a second, no,
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:49.990
I wanted recipes to be this or whatever.
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:51.589
And then it's just like then you're
00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:53.910
getting into this kind of doom loop of
00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:56.309
like good luck with changing that. If
00:55:56.319 --> 00:55:58.470
you kind of start with a really well
00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:02.470
structured product or entity model and
00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:04.230
um you know your tasks and everything
00:56:04.240 --> 00:56:06.630
like that
00:56:06.640 --> 00:56:09.589
um going through a feedback loop is
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:11.589
pretty simple
00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:15.109
uh because you're really you're you're
00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:17.910
just you're you're you're just it's like
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:20.789
a it's like being an art director on a
00:56:20.799 --> 00:56:21.829
team
00:56:21.839 --> 00:56:23.910
>> or I don't like this, I don't like that.
00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:27.030
You just explain, you know, to the AI,
00:56:27.040 --> 00:56:28.710
here's a pro, here's the problem with
00:56:28.720 --> 00:56:31.190
this. Let's say the button, the button
00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:33.190
is in the incorrect place. So, you
00:56:33.200 --> 00:56:34.870
explain there's a problem with the
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:37.349
button. Here's the problem. This is why
00:56:37.359 --> 00:56:40.150
it's in the incorrect place. And then
00:56:40.160 --> 00:56:41.670
there's one or two things. You can
00:56:41.680 --> 00:56:45.030
either say suggests a few things for me
00:56:45.040 --> 00:56:47.589
to solve this. or if you're opinionated
00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:49.750
or you you know sometimes art directors
00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:52.069
have opinions or creative directors or
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:54.069
design directors or whatever they have
00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:55.750
opinions they just tell you just can you
00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:59.510
do this um and so that's it's it's like
00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:01.670
it's almost like giving feedback to a
00:57:01.680 --> 00:57:04.150
team or a team member
00:57:04.160 --> 00:57:06.470
>> um and so I kind of see it that way and
00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:07.910
then you of course have to manage the
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:10.390
context and the context of the memory
00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:12.870
and whatnot and so you kind of always
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:15.829
have to uh kind of refresh the session
00:57:15.839 --> 00:57:20.630
And um I tend to use a lot of MD files
00:57:20.640 --> 00:57:23.349
on mini projects.
00:57:23.359 --> 00:57:26.710
>> So if I'm doing like I'm refactoring a
00:57:26.720 --> 00:57:29.270
component or whatever it is, I'd
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:31.750
probably plan it. So I don't you asked a
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:33.589
while back in the discussion you asked
00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:34.710
about plan mode,
00:57:34.720 --> 00:57:35.910
>> right?
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:37.510
>> I don't use plan mode.
00:57:37.520 --> 00:57:40.870
>> Uh but no, because it it there's no
00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:42.950
conversation there.
00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:44.470
>> Can't actually even have a conversation.
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:46.470
it always gives you these kind of
00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:49.030
multiplechoice questions
00:57:49.040 --> 00:57:51.190
>> and then it's like yes, no, yes, no, get
00:57:51.200 --> 00:57:52.710
back to the code.
00:57:52.720 --> 00:57:54.950
>> Um, I don't like that. I just keep on
00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:57.190
telling Claude like don't code anything.
00:57:57.200 --> 00:57:58.950
We're we're discussing this.
00:57:58.960 --> 00:57:59.190
>> Okay,
00:57:59.200 --> 00:58:00.549
>> that way we can have back and forth
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:02.870
discussion on like what we're doing
00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:04.710
>> and I do a lot of that and then once I
00:58:04.720 --> 00:58:08.150
like that I just go into MD file
00:58:08.160 --> 00:58:09.990
>> um generate that so that I could go
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:11.190
through multiple different sessions
00:58:11.200 --> 00:58:13.030
without getting to the context window.
00:58:13.040 --> 00:58:15.430
>> Right. will effectively generate slop no
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:16.390
matter what you do,
00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:17.109
>> right?
00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:21.270
>> Um, so I know that's a long-winded way.
00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:23.270
I should probably re like structure that
00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:24.950
in a simple way and create a blog post.
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:26.309
>> I mean, yeah, I was about to say that
00:58:26.319 --> 00:58:27.430
sounds like a great blog post that's
00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:29.670
coming up over there. I I just a a quick
00:58:29.680 --> 00:58:30.630
question though because you're saying
00:58:30.640 --> 00:58:31.910
you're generating a whole bunch of MD
00:58:31.920 --> 00:58:34.630
files. How many MD files do you think
00:58:34.640 --> 00:58:38.630
you normally generate in a in a sitting
00:58:38.640 --> 00:58:40.309
basically? or maybe not a sitting but
00:58:40.319 --> 00:58:42.069
like you know something that's you're
00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:43.430
setting up for a project or something
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:44.069
like that.
00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:47.750
>> Yeah, a few a few a few well like
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:49.670
ignoring the claw or the design like the
00:58:49.680 --> 00:58:52.710
base structure of the of the product I
00:58:52.720 --> 00:58:56.390
have a few um
00:58:56.400 --> 00:58:58.390
I could tend to get to maybe a lot.
00:58:58.400 --> 00:58:58.950
Yeah.
00:58:58.960 --> 00:58:59.349
>> Okay.
00:58:59.359 --> 00:59:00.549
>> That's a whole different problem. I
00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:02.069
don't have a good management system.
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:03.990
Maybe Obsidian or whatever that app is
00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:04.309
called.
00:59:04.319 --> 00:59:05.589
>> Yeah, Obsidian I think is right. That's
00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:06.230
right.
00:59:06.240 --> 00:59:08.230
Yeah, I'm sure they're they're doing a
00:59:08.240 --> 00:59:10.230
good market share at this point with all
00:59:10.240 --> 00:59:11.829
the markdowns being
00:59:11.839 --> 00:59:14.150
>> generated all over the place, right?
00:59:14.160 --> 00:59:16.710
>> Oh my god. Well, uh, we're Well, look,
00:59:16.720 --> 00:59:18.390
we're we're basically at the hour over
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:20.630
here. Time flies when you're having fun.
00:59:20.640 --> 00:59:23.510
Really good stuff. Um, and I'm sure that
00:59:23.520 --> 00:59:25.030
I'll have your own on for something else
00:59:25.040 --> 00:59:28.069
in the future when some other new thing
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:30.150
hits the fan and and I need a need a,
00:59:30.160 --> 00:59:32.470
you know, a good a good opinion on it.
00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:34.950
But um your own anything that you want
00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:37.829
to plug uh out there for for people to
00:59:37.839 --> 00:59:40.309
check out uh you know blog the the tool
00:59:40.319 --> 00:59:41.349
all that kind of stuff.
00:59:41.359 --> 00:59:44.230
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um
00:59:44.240 --> 00:59:47.910
uh go check out my new uh app. It's
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:50.549
called denote. Uh the URL is
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:52.150
denote.cool.
00:59:52.160 --> 00:59:53.190
>> That's so cool.
00:59:53.200 --> 00:59:55.910
>> Uh I cannot get the com. I cannot get
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:59.750
theai. I can't do anything. And so I
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:02.069
just uh compromised. But um check it
01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:03.990
out. We'll love your feedback. It's a
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:07.030
desktop app. Um and I have another thing
01:00:07.040 --> 01:00:10.309
called rigadigdig.com
01:00:10.319 --> 01:00:12.549
uh which is effectively a claude code
01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:16.710
rig because I don't like VS Code. Um and
01:00:16.720 --> 01:00:18.150
I'm working on something called
01:00:18.160 --> 01:00:19.910
counselot
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:24.309
uh which is a telemetry tool uh that's
01:00:24.319 --> 01:00:28.069
radically simplified. Um, so these are
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:30.069
all tools that I just use for myself and
01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:32.069
I'm happy to share with others. They're
01:00:32.079 --> 01:00:35.030
all free, so download it, check it out.
01:00:35.040 --> 01:00:36.870
Council a lot is not available yet. That
01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:39.190
actually may I may need to charge a
01:00:39.200 --> 01:00:44.069
little bit. Um, and my website, um, I
01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:47.030
started writing blog posts again after
01:00:47.040 --> 01:00:49.829
not doing that for like 10 years.
01:00:49.839 --> 01:00:53.430
Um, and, uh, I have no socials. I
01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:55.270
deleted all my social networks. The only
01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:58.230
thing I have is uh LinkedIn.
01:00:58.240 --> 01:01:00.630
Um so you could I don't really
01:01:00.640 --> 01:01:02.150
frequently use it, but you could check
01:01:02.160 --> 01:01:04.870
me out there or you can email or call me
01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:08.069
or grab a coffee or fly over or I fly
01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:08.950
and
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:11.829
>> that's a that's a lot. I think that's so
01:01:11.839 --> 01:01:13.750
so well open to to you know having a
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:14.870
conversation. That's great.
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:16.150
>> Maybe don't fly over.
01:01:16.160 --> 01:01:17.829
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just just just call him. He
01:01:17.839 --> 01:01:19.589
definitely wants a phone call at 3:00 in
01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:21.030
the morning about some some something
01:01:21.040 --> 01:01:23.030
you made and vibe coat it together. Uh
01:01:23.040 --> 01:01:24.710
well, Euron, thank you so much for being
01:01:24.720 --> 01:01:26.870
on the show. Uh and like I said, we'll
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:28.150
have to get you on for some more things
01:01:28.160 --> 01:01:31.349
in the future. Um and uh yeah, thank you
01:01:31.359 --> 01:01:32.549
again.
01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:33.510
>> Yeah, thank you.
01:01:33.520 --> 01:01:35.750
>> All right. And uh thank you for uh
01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:38.069
watching the show today. Um before you
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:40.630
go, please help out the show by smashing
01:01:40.640 --> 01:01:42.230
that like and subscribe button just to
01:01:42.240 --> 01:01:43.510
get notified the next time that we go
01:01:43.520 --> 01:01:45.670
live. And feel free to continue the
01:01:45.680 --> 01:01:47.190
conversation on the official Design
01:01:47.200 --> 01:01:49.109
Systems House Discord by going to
01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:50.950
discord.ds.house. There it is on the
01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:52.549
bottom there. Uh, play nice in those
01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:53.990
comments and I'll see you on the
01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:57.559
internet. Bye.