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Welcome to this unexpected life.
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And my whole life, no matter if it ever looks the way I want it to or not, is worth something because he created me and because he has a plan and a purpose, even if I never understand it.
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A podcast for parents navigating the challenges of raising a child with disabilities or special needs.
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Here we share stories of hope, resilience, and messy faith to help you embrace your journey, work through grief, and thrive in your role.
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Whether you're just starting out or seeking encouragement to keep going, this is a space where your story matters.
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Join Carrie, your storytelling companion, as we explore the hope and healing found in Jesus Christ.
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One story at a time.
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Welcome back to this Unexpected Life Podcast.
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So today my guest is Angela Mackie, who is no stranger to wrestling with God.
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Whether she is asking a deep theological question or asking why, she has learned that lament and the wrestling embrace are sacred opportunities to know God better.
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A self-described Bible nerd, Angela earned her master's in biblical and theological studies, and she is an author, speaker, and podcast host who helps people experience God through his word so that ordinary days, hard seasons, and everything in between are transformed by Jesus.
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So part of Angela's story is that she and her husband experienced two pregnancy losses that resulting in infertility.
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They have three adult children, two through IVF, and her book, Difficult to Conceive, is for women dealing with the difficult world of infertility.
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She and her husband live in the Arkansas River Valley with their three dogs.
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So today's conversation with Angela is part of the series of talking about how suffering speaks a common language.
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She's not a special needs mom, but I think you'll find some very common themes in the conversation that I had with her.
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So we talked through her story of the unexpected, the loss and infertility.
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She had two ectopic pregnancies, what it was like to lament and wrestle with unanswered prayers, and how God is near to the brokenhearted.
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So enjoy my conversation with Angela Mackey.
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Well, hello, Angela Mackey.
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Thank you for coming on this Unexpected Life podcast.
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It's so good to have you.
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Thanks for having me, Carrie.
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I'm excited to be here.
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So, first of all, for those meeting you for the first time, just introduce yourself and just share a little bit about you, where you're from, your family.
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I'm um from Arkansas now.
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I was born and raised in Kansas, but we've been in Arkansas now longer than I was in Kansas, but I still feel like Kansas is home, if that makes sense.
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But yeah, I live in Arkansas with my husband.
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We have three adult kiddos, 23, 20, and 18.
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We'll soon be empty nesters.
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And yeah, two of those kiddos are IVF babies because we had a little unexpected bit of life going on.
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Yeah, we're gonna talk a little bit about that today.
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So the series this month is that suffering speaks a common language.
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So the guests don't necessarily have children with disabilities or special needs.
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They do have stories of the unexpected and stories of pain.
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And so that's where we're gonna lean into how we shouldn't necessarily compare, but we can actually find connection in each other because we do experience similar emotions, struggles, and our faith and all of that.
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And so that's what I'm excited to lean into this month.
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So before infertility became a part of your story, what dreams did you have for your family?
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And then how did the loss of those dreams bring about the grief and the truly unexpected?
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Yeah.
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I think just like most women who have been raised in the church and they kind of know what they want.
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They think, okay, I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna meet the man of my dreams, and then we're gonna get married and we'll have three or four kids, and I'm gonna also have either a career or I'm just gonna love staying at home with those kids.
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So I think the first clue should have been, hey, Angela, you didn't meet the man of your dreams in college.
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That maybe God wasn't quite on the same, this is how my life is gonna go path as me.
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But anyway, I did meet him not long after college, and we got married, and really things kind of seemed to be going according to plan.
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I mean, we got married, we were married for a little bit, we had our careers going, and then um was able to get pregnant without a problem with child number one.
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We moved from Dallas to Arkansas at that point, and he's a physician, so he started his practice, and I was getting involved in the church, and then it was time to start trying for baby number two, and I had a tubal pregnancy that ruptured.
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So, and you know how it is.
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As soon as you see those two lines on that pregnancy test, right?
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You already have plans for that baby.
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You know, like, oh, this is where the this is where we're gonna put the nursery, and then you're like thinking about, oh, we're gonna need to know about preschools and elementary schools and all of these things.
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We have this dream, and that just wasn't what the Lord had for us.
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I yes, I can relate to that having four kids of just you know, you're planning the due date and the whole process, and then when it doesn't go the way you think it's going to, it's it's very devastating.
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So I know when we've talked offline that you ended up having two ectopic pregnancies.
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Would you walk through that season and what that was like emotionally, physically, and spiritually?
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Yeah.
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Well, yeah, oof.
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Um, that's a lot.
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It was so the first sign um on that first tubal pregnancy that something was wrong was there was, you know, blood on the toilet paper.
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And so that's kind of a shock.
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And then doctors, like, yeah, everything looks like I just don't think you're as far along as you thought you are.
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And you're like, you clearly don't know who I am because I can practically tell you the date this child was conceived, you know, like all of these things.
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And so you're hanging on to hope, but you're experiencing a lot of pain.
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And really, before they could even 100% diagnose I was having a tubal pregnancy.
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Well, that was the second one.
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For the first one, they gave me some medication.
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I experienced extreme pain that night after the medication and went to the emergency room, but they're like, Yeah, you're probably just experiencing pain from the tubal pregnancy.
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I went home and I had been bleeding all that night and all through the next day at home with my baby, who was um one at the time.
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And so the Lord protected me, praise Jesus, by the time it was time for me to get to the emergency room at the second time.
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Um, my mom and my sister had come in from out of town to help uh me out.
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So found out that I'd lost about half my circulating volume of blood.
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So I was physically depleted.
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I had to have a blood transfusion.
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Um, it was so painful.
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And then on top of that, just the grief of losing what I thought was what God was giving me.
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Yeah, definitely.
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When we look at these experiences, you know, that you've been through, what would you say to someone who is just mourning the death of the dream of what they thought their life would look like?
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Well, first thing, it is okay to grieve.
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I think sometimes we pretend like, well, nobody died, whatever, or this dream that I've lost that I'm grieving is like first world problems compared to this problem or whatever.
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And that might be true in some case, but it's still a grief for you.
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And you still need to give yourself permission to grieve.
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And then you need to also continue to come to God in that lament and wrestling, because if you don't, he's the God of all comfort, he's the only one who can comfort you through this.
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But then, furthermore, he's also the God who has such good plans for you, even when they don't feel good and you don't understand.
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And so, so when you're going through those hard things and you just don't understand, you have to continue to go to him.
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So, for someone who isn't familiar with the concept of lament, how would you define or describe that?
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It's an honest cry to God about exactly how you feel and exactly what is going on.
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Lord, this is not just, Lord, this is unfair, Lord, I don't understand, I hurt.
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I mean, you hear David in the Psalms talk about his bones are weary.
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Um, you hear there's a whole book in the Bible called Lamentations, right?
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I mean, the whole entire book is crying out and saying, God, this is unfair.
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I don't see this, I don't understand this.
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What's very interesting is I think there's only about two Psalms of Lament that do not end with turning their eyes to God.
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But the linchpin in the whole book of Lamentations is in Lamentations 3, it's like 21 through 24, and it says, But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end.
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They are new every morning.
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Great is your faithfulness.
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And then he goes on to complain some more.
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But he remembers who God is in the midst of the trial and the pain.
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Yeah, and I think sometimes one of the things we forget is, you know, as writers, we're both writers, as someone who might write songs or poetry, sometimes that takes six months, a year.
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Like that wasn't the praise that usually comes at the end of a psalm, except those two you mentioned.
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That wasn't written in an hour or a day.
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And I think one of the keys that you just said is you have the remembrance and then you have you go back to the lament.
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It's messy, it's jumbled.
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It it's all over the place.
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It's real and true to life, I think.
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And I think sometimes we give ourselves maybe even these expectations of I can only lament for this long.
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I we have this, I don't know, set of rules, maybe even sometimes around our grief and our sorrow.
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Um, we should be over this by now.
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I talk about, I talk sometimes about how we do the shoulds, we're doing the should all over ourselves.
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But I don't think that's true of scripture.
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And why do you think it's so important for us to bring these questions and doubts and lament to the Lord?
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Well, first thing, he already knows we have them.
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I mean, it's not a surprise, right?
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Before a word's even on our tongues, he knows what we're thinking and feeling anyway.
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So that's the first thing.
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The second thing is he is the God of all comfort.
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He is the God who understands and knows the plan.
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He is the God who is near to the brokenhearted.
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So he longs to comfort you.
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He longs to be there with you.
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And listen, sometimes even as you're wrestling it out with him and lamenting with him, he has to whisper some correction.
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But if you're not willing to be in that wrestling embrace with him, you're not close enough to hear him tell you the things you need to hear.
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You're not close enough to feel or experience the comfort and the peace that passes understanding.
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You're not close enough to hear him go, hey Angela, that's really not right.
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But I mean, look at even the life of Job, right?
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I haven't even touched that book yet.
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Job is complaining about God and he's like, I just want to, I just want to come to him and state my case.
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And you know, God's response to Job is not here's why.
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His response to Job is, remember who I am.
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You don't know all of the things that are going on.
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And Job's response to God wasn't, but I should.
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His response to God was, I really I forgot what I am.
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I'm gonna cover my mouth.
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I'm sorry, you are way holier than I ever gave you credit for.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I I love how you pointed that out that God didn't give him the reasons why, but he said, This is my character, this is who I am in this situation.
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You know, and sometimes we're not ready to accept that.
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But I love how you said we have to be close enough to hear his voice and close enough, which means that we're not stiff arming him.
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We're trying to lean in instead of pull away.
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I'm gonna go back to can you remember a time or an experience that you had where you really felt the comfort of God during those those losses with your two babies?
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Yes, definitely.
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But I'll tell you this: I don't know if I necessarily felt it while I was there, but when I look back, I saw it.
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So let me encourage you that sometimes you're like, God wasn't there.
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And if you don't see it while you're experiencing it, ask God to show you where He was.
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Because I would have probably said, I didn't really, I don't know if you'd asked me that close.
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Um but looking back, I have seen so many cases with that first tubal pregnancy while I was bleeding internally for that long.
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I was never alone that day.
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I was always alone with my daughter.
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I shouldn't say always, but I'm a stay-at-home mom.
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You know, my husband would leave, I'd be alone with her.
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That day, God made sure I was never alone.
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Before my husband left for work, a friend came over and hung out with me.
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When she had to leave, another friend came over.
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As she was leaving, my mom and my sister came in.
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That whole day that I could have passed out and died and only had a toddler in the room with me.
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God was there.
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What a comfort.
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What a comfort that he made sure somebody was there with me.
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And then with my second pregnancy, I we were actually supposed to be on a riverboat cruise and we just happened to go ahead and get insurance on that trip.
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My husband had time off.
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He's a physician and he never has time off.
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So he was able to be with me the whole time during that experience.
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And when I had to rush to the emergency room because it was um clearly rupturing again, he was able to be there.
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We caught it earlier that time, so didn't have a blood transfusion.
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So I can look back and see the Lord's hand and the timing and the way he did all of that.
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And that was a comfort to me.
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And a lot of times we want to dismiss those things to chance in the moment.
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But it echoes back to what you said about lamentations.
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This I call to mind.
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This is what I remember.
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And then I have hope.
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So your husband is a physician.
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How did he deal with that?
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Because I can imagine he's a little bit of a fixer, maybe.
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He's a doctor.
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Do you mind just sharing maybe a little bit of that if you're comfortable?
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Sure, certainly.
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He um he is a fixer.
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And seeing me deal with all of that medical stuff that he couldn't fix was really, really hard on him.
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And I will be honest, I wish I'd done a better job of talking to him about things or even hearing him.
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When he kept telling me, Angela, you could have died, Angela, you could have died.
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I went through it and I was like, I wasn't gonna die.
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I was fine, you know?
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And it wasn't until I started writing the book that I wrote that I realized, I mean, I'm a nurse too, I know better, that I realized I really could have died.
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And that was a super dangerous situation both times.
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And honestly, if I'd been born even if it happened even 10 years ago, I might not have made it.
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So God was so faithful in that.
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But he, yes, those two things were really, really hard on him.
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And at that point, after the second one, he was kind of like, I'm not ready to even think about kids.
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And I'm like, but I want more, I want more.
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And so he graciously allowed us to move on to IVF relatively quickly.
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But yeah, I definitely that was a challenge for him.
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It was a challenge in our relationship because I really didn't understand until multiple years later how dangerous it really was.
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Yeah, for sure.
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I think a lot of times if we're married, we realize at some point, but usually not in the moment, that our spouses are dealing with the grief differently than we are.
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Sometimes even in a completely different time, your timing and his necessarily don't match, which is probably God's grace, right?
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It's probably good if we're not both falling apart at the same time.
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Thank you for sharing that.
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So then walk us through what those next years of trying to conceive, because we know you mentioned the beginning you have three children.
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So I'm imagining that it was a journey to have two more kids.
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It was a journey.
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And let me be honest, most people who deal with infertility, it's not I do it at breakneck speed.
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Let's just put it that way.
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Most people don't lose their fertility in essentially six months because most of the time you, you know, it takes years and years and years to find out what might be wrong or to figure out.
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And a lot of times it's unexplained.
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For us, we knew exactly what the problem was.
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I had a plumbing problem.
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Both of my tubes had ruptured.
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I ruptured super early in pregnancy, so it wasn't really safe for me to try to naturally again.
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So we moved on to IVF relatively quickly.
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And from the time of my first ruptured ectopic pregnancy to the time of having my first IVF baby was like a year and a half.
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So it was boom.
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So uh talk about whiplash, talk about like almost not having a chance to process everything.
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It probably would have been wise for me to slow down.
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But at that point in my desires to make my dreams come true, I didn't um slow down and process.
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So I kind of had to slow down and process later.
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Yeah.
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Um, but yeah, so that was interesting.
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And then we had babies in the freezer.
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:22.559
So um when we prayed about IVF, we knew we were going to, we believed that life is super important in all of its iterations, even in its smallest.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:31.599
And so every embryo that survived to the point where they could be transferred, we were going to give the opportunity at life outside the dish, as I call it.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:38.559
Um, and so we almost had a heart attack when we first heard that we had about 21 embryos.
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:40.720
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:50.000
Um, and then um, but then there was so much loss in between the first and um and through the point where they could be transferred.
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:54.559
So at the point where they could be transferred, I believe we had, I think it's nine, is that right?
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.640
Yeah, I think we froze seven, if I have that right.
00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.519
For years we had babies in a freezer a couple hours away from our house.
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.440
And that definitely affected my life.
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:15.519
And I didn't even realize it that much until at looking back when we were able to take the final three embryos home in my womb, even though none of I did not end up pregnant.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.480
Um, that was a relief because I I'd done what I could do for all my babies.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:21.920
They were home with me.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.359
So we had um we transferred two on our first cycle.
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:33.759
They originally it was both of them implanted, so I was gonna have twins, and then one twin stopped developing, so I ended up with one, and that's more loss.
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:41.119
Um then we transferred two and I didn't get pregnant, then we transferred two more, and only one implanted and I got my son.
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.920
And then, like I said, the final three did not uh implant.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.759
So loss after loss after loss, grief after grief after grief, joy in between.
00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:56.240
Um not at all the road I imagined.
00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:57.200
Yeah.
00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:05.440
So do you mind talking maybe a little bit about what it was like to finally kind of slow down and process some of that loss?
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:27.279
Because I I'm thinking about the special needs mom who's listening, who in the middle of the chaos of being in and out of the hospital and taking care of your kid or running from behavior issue to behavior issue to, you know, being afraid that your child's gonna hurt you because they have explosive behaviors, especially when they're going through puberty and they might have a diagnosis of like autism.
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:40.000
You don't really have the luxury, I guess I would say, to slow down to really process how different your life looks and and the loss.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:45.599
But at the same time, at some point you want to keep thriving, right?
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.440
You don't want to just live in survival mode, you know, all the time.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.640
And I think that's really hard for us to figure out how to do that.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.640
Do you have any thoughts about that?
00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:08.240
Yeah, I think there's lots of different opportunities, but you have to carve out some time for you to be able to do that.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:17.759
Whether that means I have a time I wake up early every morning, I know that for most of people with special needs kids, there's very little.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:21.599
You try your best to have a routine, but it's always interrupted.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.119
So find your time.
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:31.440
As soon as it's quiet in the house for whatever reason, maybe somebody's taking a nap, find that time and use it to go to the Lord.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:33.359
Use it to process.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:37.839
Um, when you have an opportunity for some respite care, take it.
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:47.279
It is not weakness, it is not running from what God has given you to give yourself an opportunity to rest and breathe in Him.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:59.759
I encourage people to find as much as you can a godly, wise counselor, licensed, preferably, to help you walk through these things because listen, especially.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.960
Needs caregiving is a gift.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:06.160
It is also a big, big weight.
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:08.240
And I want you to know you are seen.
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.960
You are seen by God, but you are also seen by others.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:16.720
And I know sometimes you feel like, yeah, I'm seen by others because they see my kid acting out and they're judging me.
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:21.359
But let me tell you, you are seen by other people who see you and are and are praying for you.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.799
You are seen by others who know that you're there.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.279
So give yourself permission.
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:29.519
Take the break when you can.
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:37.599
And then just daily, listen, I know most of the time your prayers are going to be, Lord, help me process this, Lord, help me, help me deal with this, help me whatever.
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:39.200
And it's going to be a quick one.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:45.200
But never, never stop calling out to him with those prayers because those are also valuable.
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:53.599
It that does not mean I'm not as good of a Christian because most of my prayers are popcorn prayers instead of I can sit down for 30 minutes and pray.
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:54.559
Yeah.
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:56.079
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:57.680
That's so, so good.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.799
You know, you talked a lot about praying and a little bit about scripture.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.960
Was there a particular scripture that became an anchor for you during your journey?
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:12.160
And how did God use that to encourage you along the way?
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.200
So listen, I'm a huge Bible nerd.
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.000
I have my master's in biblical and theological studies.
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:26.880
So God used a lot of different scriptures throughout, but one of the ones that really kept coming back was Daniel 3.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.000
And that's Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego's story, right?
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:32.160
They're walking through the fiery furnace.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:39.039
And they're standing there in front of King Nebuchadnezzar, and the king's like, listen, you need to bow down or we're throwing you in.
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.720
And they say, We don't even have to answer you, oh king.
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:48.160
Our God is able to save us from the fiery furnace.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:54.720
But even if he doesn't, and that's the key, but even if he doesn't, we will not bow down to anyone or anything else.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:59.759
And because they made that claim, Jesus was with them in the fire.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:14.640
And so what I had to tell myself through those really difficult times, what I'm encouraging your listeners to do is say, God, I don't want to bow down to the idol of having healthy kids who don't have disabilities.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:26.720
I don't want to bow down to the idol of my life would be different or easier or whatever, to stiff arming God or to holding so tight to my dreams that I can't see you working here.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:50.720
And so help me to bow down to you here, no matter what that looks like, whether I have another child or not, whether um for you all, whether whether my autistic kiddo who goes through puberty is not violent or not, whatever it is, whatever those dreams or hopes are, I'm laying them on the altar, Lord, for you because I want to worship you and not what I want.
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:51.759
Yeah.
00:24:52.160 --> 00:25:03.440
And I think that's one of the things that is so important is I think a lot of times we are bound down to the idol of comfort, and that peace is the absence of suffering.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.880
And that's absolutely not the case, right?
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:18.160
There's there's peace in the middle and and peace in the chaos and peace in the fire, that they were convinced that this is what God had for them going into the fire.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.720
And even if God didn't rescue them, that God was still faithful.
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:25.119
And I think that's really tough.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:31.359
And we can believe that in good times, and then when the fire comes, it can be hard to cling to that truth again.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:32.799
But it's so important.
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.240
So I know, and we're kind of talking about this.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:42.640
Like when we go through hard things and we go through suffering, the battle is a lot of times in our head, right?
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.920
It's what we're believing, and is that belief only in our head?
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.440
Is it actually something we believe in our heart?
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:54.400
It's causing us to trust that's affecting our daily steps and behavior.
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.359
Why do you think that our thought life is so important?
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:05.039
And how can we stop those spiraling thoughts that can sometimes seem very impossible to control in the moment?
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:07.039
Because I think we've all dealt with that.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:08.160
Yes, yes.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.559
Well, first thing, God cares about our thinking.
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.799
I mean, that's why there's so many scripture, right?
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:21.119
Um, in Second Corinthians, he tells us that we have to demolish these ideas that stand up against God and that we have to take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.559
In Philippians 4, he talks about the whatever's whatever is pure and holy and true, all of those things.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:27.599
Think about such things.
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:35.119
And here's the thing our thinking translates into what we do because as we think, so we do.
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:43.279
And I know we laugh about that sometimes, but it is so, so true because we even see it in athletes, right?
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.960
Athletes do better when they think about how they can better shoot the ball.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:52.960
I mean, they have to do the practice and do all that stuff, but the more you think about the right way, your body's gonna do it better.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:54.640
And so that's science.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:01.039
So there's scientific reason why our thinking matters, there's biblical reason why our thinking matters.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:09.599
And then we see too, what was it, Chuck Swindle who was like, um, you know, I'm convinced that 99% of life is our attitude, right?
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.960
And our attitude comes from the things that we're thinking and focusing on.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:18.160
And it is so, so valuable to think about what we're thinking.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:27.759
And so the ways we can help spiraling thoughts, there's there's several different ways, but one of the best ways is to get a pattern interrupt.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.160
So, like in classrooms, right?
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:39.519
When kids are talking and it's so, so loud, you know, you've got these teachers who go class, class, and then they're taught to go what, what, and then they start settling down or whatever it is.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:43.119
So you can get a pattern interrupt for your own brain.
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:47.680
Because our our thought spirals start so fast, it's sometimes hard to realize.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:53.359
And then all of a sudden, when we catch that, oh, we're spiraling, it's hard to know how do I stop that pattern?
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.319
So start asking questions of your own thoughts.
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:02.559
And I love that Philippians 4 8, which is where all of those, the whatever is whatever is pure, lovely.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:03.440
Is this pure?
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:04.559
Is this lovely?
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:05.680
Is this true?
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:06.880
Is this honorable?
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:08.480
Is it of praiseworthy?
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:13.359
And and so asking yourself those questions can suddenly go, wait, it's not.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.640
Is this especially that question of is it true?
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.400
So, yeah, so those are the things that can kind of help.
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.480
Yeah, that's really, really good.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.640
So I'm a former elementary school teacher.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:28.640
So, you know, you have the clapping thing or you have the the response.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:36.640
And it is true that you have to have those pattern interruptions, I think that's what you called it, to stop those spiraling thucks.
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.240
I had this happen to me just a few weeks ago.
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:52.799
My son got married, and then all of a sudden, you're a couple days after, when you're kind of coming down the high of just the beauty of all of that, I just had all these fears, completely irrational fear.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:57.920
And I would say that personally, I'm not usually giving over to a lot of fear.
00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:00.640
I just am not a not a super fearful person.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.200
That's not a part of my personality.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.680
But I really had to go, Lord, where is this coming from?
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.640
I need you to stop this because this is not truth.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.640
And I had to go back to the truth.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:14.799
What's the truth about this?
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:19.359
What's the truth about my relationship with him and my new daughter in love?
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:22.079
What is the relationship with all of these things?
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.559
And I really had to do that interrupt because those fears were spiraling fast.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.240
And it was late at night too.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:29.759
So that doesn't help.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:39.680
Listen, our thoughts late at night, that's probably one of the worst times because we're tired and there's not a whole lot else going on, and our thoughts just start going, whoa.
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:42.720
When you start feeling like that, oh, I'm getting anxious.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.480
Like, okay, so why am I getting anxious?
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.079
Oh, that's where my thought has gone.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:48.400
Okay, so why is my thought gone here?
00:29:48.640 --> 00:30:00.720
And then just knowing the character of God, knowing what he has done, not only in scriptural past, but in your own past, can help you tell yourself, no, God's faithful.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:01.599
That's not a problem.
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:02.960
No, God is able.
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:07.920
No, even if he doesn't, just like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendigo, he's gonna walk me through this.
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:12.240
I might not like it, it might be uncomfortable, but I can trust him in it.
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:13.119
Yeah.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:20.559
I think that harkens back to what we talked about earlier of just the remember, the remember, the remember.
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:28.720
This I call to mind, this I called a mind, which might end up being the title of this podcast because I think it's just been a theme throughout.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:31.440
So let's switch gears just a little bit.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.480
Looking back now, you have three children who are grown.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:47.440
How has your understanding of God's faithfulness changed and developed through the years of way back when you've had all these losses walking through the IBF journey and now having three adult children?
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:49.920
You have a lot of hindsight, I would say.
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:51.759
I do, I do.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:31:02.799
I look back and I realize that there are opportunities for me to stay concerned or worried or in grief every step of the way, right?
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:18.880
I mean, I think we we kind of have a mark that we'll put out there if only, if only God had given me the kids that he wanted, if only I could be happy now, if only my kiddos didn't have this disability, I could be happy now, whatever it is.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:19.359
Yeah.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:24.000
But here's the thing even if he gave you that, you'd have something else.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:30.240
You know, when you've had your tubal pregnancies, as soon as you see the double line, you're like, oh my gosh, are they gonna survive?
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:34.559
Okay, once you make it past the place where, okay, they're not in my tubes, okay, that's good.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.839
Now are they gonna have any issues throughout the whole pregnancy, right?
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.519
Okay, now now they're born there.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.200
Okay, now are they developing correctly?
00:31:41.359 --> 00:32:02.799
Now are they, you know, and we can spend all of our energy so worried about the what ifs or so upset that God didn't do something different in our lives that we miss out on the joy that he has for us today, that we miss out on opportunities to see him walking with us through the fire.
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.200
And that has a lot to do with what's going on in our brain.
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:10.880
Are we focused on the thing we wanted from God, or are we focused on who God is?
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:26.799
He is worthy, he is God, he is beautiful, and my whole life, no matter if it ever looks the way I want it to or not, is worth something because he created me and because he has a plan and a purpose, even if I never understand it.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:27.759
Yeah.
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:33.119
And I just want to highlight because I think we can so easily gloss over that.
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:39.680
It do we want more of what we want, we want God to give us, or do we want more of him?
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.920
And I mean, the truth is that he wants more of us, he wants all of us.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.680
I listened to Shane and Shane, the worship initiative.
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:54.240
They have a daily devotional that is music, and I love music and singing.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:33:00.880
And today's song was Reckless Love and and just how God pursues us.
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:15.599
And at the very end, the one Shane gave the analogy of when I was pursuing my wife and I was getting ready to propose to her, and I knew that she was going to be unfaithful to me in our marriage over and over and over again.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.000
And I still decided to propose to her and marry her.
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.599
He said, Everyone would tell me that's ridiculous.
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:24.880
Like, why would you do that?
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:26.160
You're you're mad.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.680
You're just setting yourself up for heartache and failure.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.279
But yeah, as the bride of Christ, that's what Jesus did for us.
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:57.759
He came into the world pursuing us, knowing we were gonna reject him, created us knowing we were gonna reject him, then came into the world to die, to offer us the redemption of salvation, and knowing that the children of Israel, like you mentioned earlier, we're constantly turning to idols and turning to all these things that are never gonna satisfy us except him and and fully him.
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:02.880
So I don't know if you have any comments on that, but yeah, if you don't, that's okay.
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:08.480
Yes, God's is so worth all of our lives.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:14.480
I mean, that's why Romans 12 2 tells us, in view of God's mercy, let's live as living sacrifices, right?
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:18.159
I don't have the exact quote, sorry, but it's it's in Romans 12, it's one and two.
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:18.639
Yeah.
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:24.000
So be a living sacrifice because he is worth it.
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.079
His love for us is worth it.
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.719
He is beautiful, he is good, he loves you so much, he has a plan and a purpose.
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:36.719
And so when we can really fully live like we believe that, that changes a lot of things.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.599
It still gives room for grief, it still has room for lament.
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:47.280
There's not that I'm not saying don't do those things because there's still those broken things in this world, but we can say, I trust you in the midst of this.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.559
And that's where that peace that passes understanding comes.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:52.800
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:02.719
So not everyone who's listening has experienced the journey that you have of infertility and miscarriage and loss.
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:10.880
But I know everyone who's listening has experienced the disappointment, unanswered prayers, um, prayers not being answered the way that we thought they would be.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:15.840
So, what do you hope every listener would take away from your story that you're sharing today?
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:26.320
Well, first, that God is worth our whole life, that he is so good, and that he loves you.
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:33.679
And even though he's that big and amazing and good, he sees each and every one of you.
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:43.840
And he loves you, and he has good plans for you and purposes in your life that you are living out even in the midst of the grief.
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:50.559
And so keep seeking him, keep looking for his light because it is there.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:57.360
He is near to the brokenhearted, he loves you, he sees you, and he knows you.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:00.159
That's so good.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:08.239
Will you tell the listeners the story of your book because they might be going through this themselves or have a friend or family member?
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.440
And then also where they can find you online.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:14.239
And I'll have all the links to this in the show notes.
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:14.960
Yeah.
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:21.760
Well, the title of my book is Difficult to Conceive: A Godly Perspective for the Road Ahead.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:29.519
And it is the book I kind of wish I had when I was dealing with my infertility and pregnancy loss situation.
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.880
So it tells bits of my story, but really it's all about what God was teaching me in those times.
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:39.119
So we're gonna talk about all the women who dealt with infertility in the Bible.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.039
We're gonna talk about asking God why.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:46.800
We're gonna talk about the battle in our minds that we were discussing earlier and so many other things.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.360
So that's what that book is about and for.
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.599
You can find it on Amazon or anywhere good books are sold.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:04.880
And then you can find me at angelamackie.com and it's just spelled the normal way A-N-G-E-L-A-MACI-M-A-C-K-E-Y dot com.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:15.119
And if you sign up for my newsletter, I have a free 10-minute filter to help you stop spiraling thoughts based on Philippians 4.8.
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.840
So I'd love to get that in your hands as well.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:19.360
That's great.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:21.840
Thank you, Angela, for being a guest today.
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:26.559
I know this is really going to encourage the women and families who are listening.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.599
So thank you.
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:29.519
Thank you for having me.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:37.519
If you have enjoyed this podcast, would you do Carrie a favor and hit the subscribe button to where you listen to podcasts?
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:39.599
Also, leave a review.
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This helps the podcast to become more visible to others.
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:54.159
If you would like to share your story on the podcast, visit Carrie's website, CarrieMHolt.com backslash podcast, and fill out the form.
00:37:54.400 --> 00:38:02.559
You can find Carrie online on Facebook and Instagram, and on her Substack page at CM Holt.
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:07.440
Thank you for joining us today on this unexpected life podcast.
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:12.239
Real stories, real hope in this unexpected journey.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.399
Welcome to this unexpected life.
00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:14.320
And my whole life, no matter if it ever looks the way I want it to or not, is worth something because he created me and because he has a plan and a purpose, even if I never understand it.
00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:21.600
A podcast for parents navigating the challenges of raising a child with disabilities or special needs.
00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:32.479
Here we share stories of hope, resilience, and messy faith to help you embrace your journey, work through grief, and thrive in your role.
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Whether you're just starting out or seeking encouragement to keep going, this is a space where your story matters.
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Join Carrie, your storytelling companion, as we explore the hope and healing found in Jesus Christ.
00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:51.520
One story at a time.
00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:54.320
Welcome back to this Unexpected Life Podcast.
00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:59.200
So today my guest is Angela Mackie, who is no stranger to wrestling with God.
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Whether she is asking a deep theological question or asking why, she has learned that lament and the wrestling embrace are sacred opportunities to know God better.
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A self-described Bible nerd, Angela earned her master's in biblical and theological studies, and she is an author, speaker, and podcast host who helps people experience God through his word so that ordinary days, hard seasons, and everything in between are transformed by Jesus.
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So part of Angela's story is that she and her husband experienced two pregnancy losses that resulting in infertility.
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They have three adult children, two through IVF, and her book, Difficult to Conceive, is for women dealing with the difficult world of infertility.
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She and her husband live in the Arkansas River Valley with their three dogs.
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So today's conversation with Angela is part of the series of talking about how suffering speaks a common language.
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She's not a special needs mom, but I think you'll find some very common themes in the conversation that I had with her.
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So we talked through her story of the unexpected, the loss and infertility.
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She had two ectopic pregnancies, what it was like to lament and wrestle with unanswered prayers, and how God is near to the brokenhearted.
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So enjoy my conversation with Angela Mackey.
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Well, hello, Angela Mackey.
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Thank you for coming on this Unexpected Life podcast.
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It's so good to have you.
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Thanks for having me, Carrie.
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I'm excited to be here.
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So, first of all, for those meeting you for the first time, just introduce yourself and just share a little bit about you, where you're from, your family.
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I'm um from Arkansas now.
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I was born and raised in Kansas, but we've been in Arkansas now longer than I was in Kansas, but I still feel like Kansas is home, if that makes sense.
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But yeah, I live in Arkansas with my husband.
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We have three adult kiddos, 23, 20, and 18.
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We'll soon be empty nesters.
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And yeah, two of those kiddos are IVF babies because we had a little unexpected bit of life going on.
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Yeah, we're gonna talk a little bit about that today.
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So the series this month is that suffering speaks a common language.
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So the guests don't necessarily have children with disabilities or special needs.
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They do have stories of the unexpected and stories of pain.
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And so that's where we're gonna lean into how we shouldn't necessarily compare, but we can actually find connection in each other because we do experience similar emotions, struggles, and our faith and all of that.
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And so that's what I'm excited to lean into this month.
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So before infertility became a part of your story, what dreams did you have for your family?
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And then how did the loss of those dreams bring about the grief and the truly unexpected?
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Yeah.
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I think just like most women who have been raised in the church and they kind of know what they want.
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They think, okay, I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna meet the man of my dreams, and then we're gonna get married and we'll have three or four kids, and I'm gonna also have either a career or I'm just gonna love staying at home with those kids.
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So I think the first clue should have been, hey, Angela, you didn't meet the man of your dreams in college.
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That maybe God wasn't quite on the same, this is how my life is gonna go path as me.
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But anyway, I did meet him not long after college, and we got married, and really things kind of seemed to be going according to plan.
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I mean, we got married, we were married for a little bit, we had our careers going, and then um was able to get pregnant without a problem with child number one.
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We moved from Dallas to Arkansas at that point, and he's a physician, so he started his practice, and I was getting involved in the church, and then it was time to start trying for baby number two, and I had a tubal pregnancy that ruptured.
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So, and you know how it is.
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As soon as you see those two lines on that pregnancy test, right?
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You already have plans for that baby.
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You know, like, oh, this is where the this is where we're gonna put the nursery, and then you're like thinking about, oh, we're gonna need to know about preschools and elementary schools and all of these things.
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We have this dream, and that just wasn't what the Lord had for us.
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I yes, I can relate to that having four kids of just you know, you're planning the due date and the whole process, and then when it doesn't go the way you think it's going to, it's it's very devastating.
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So I know when we've talked offline that you ended up having two ectopic pregnancies.
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Would you walk through that season and what that was like emotionally, physically, and spiritually?
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Yeah.
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Well, yeah, oof.
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Um, that's a lot.
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It was so the first sign um on that first tubal pregnancy that something was wrong was there was, you know, blood on the toilet paper.
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And so that's kind of a shock.
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And then doctors, like, yeah, everything looks like I just don't think you're as far along as you thought you are.
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And you're like, you clearly don't know who I am because I can practically tell you the date this child was conceived, you know, like all of these things.
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And so you're hanging on to hope, but you're experiencing a lot of pain.
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And really, before they could even 100% diagnose I was having a tubal pregnancy.
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Well, that was the second one.
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For the first one, they gave me some medication.
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I experienced extreme pain that night after the medication and went to the emergency room, but they're like, Yeah, you're probably just experiencing pain from the tubal pregnancy.
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I went home and I had been bleeding all that night and all through the next day at home with my baby, who was um one at the time.
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And so the Lord protected me, praise Jesus, by the time it was time for me to get to the emergency room at the second time.
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Um, my mom and my sister had come in from out of town to help uh me out.
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So found out that I'd lost about half my circulating volume of blood.
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So I was physically depleted.
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I had to have a blood transfusion.
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Um, it was so painful.
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And then on top of that, just the grief of losing what I thought was what God was giving me.
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Yeah, definitely.
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When we look at these experiences, you know, that you've been through, what would you say to someone who is just mourning the death of the dream of what they thought their life would look like?
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Well, first thing, it is okay to grieve.
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I think sometimes we pretend like, well, nobody died, whatever, or this dream that I've lost that I'm grieving is like first world problems compared to this problem or whatever.
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And that might be true in some case, but it's still a grief for you.
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And you still need to give yourself permission to grieve.
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And then you need to also continue to come to God in that lament and wrestling, because if you don't, he's the God of all comfort, he's the only one who can comfort you through this.
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But then, furthermore, he's also the God who has such good plans for you, even when they don't feel good and you don't understand.
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And so, so when you're going through those hard things and you just don't understand, you have to continue to go to him.
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So, for someone who isn't familiar with the concept of lament, how would you define or describe that?
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It's an honest cry to God about exactly how you feel and exactly what is going on.
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Lord, this is not just, Lord, this is unfair, Lord, I don't understand, I hurt.
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I mean, you hear David in the Psalms talk about his bones are weary.
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Um, you hear there's a whole book in the Bible called Lamentations, right?
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I mean, the whole entire book is crying out and saying, God, this is unfair.
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I don't see this, I don't understand this.
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What's very interesting is I think there's only about two Psalms of Lament that do not end with turning their eyes to God.
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But the linchpin in the whole book of Lamentations is in Lamentations 3, it's like 21 through 24, and it says, But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end.
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They are new every morning.
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Great is your faithfulness.
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And then he goes on to complain some more.
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But he remembers who God is in the midst of the trial and the pain.
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Yeah, and I think sometimes one of the things we forget is, you know, as writers, we're both writers, as someone who might write songs or poetry, sometimes that takes six months, a year.
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Like that wasn't the praise that usually comes at the end of a psalm, except those two you mentioned.
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That wasn't written in an hour or a day.
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And I think one of the keys that you just said is you have the remembrance and then you have you go back to the lament.
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It's messy, it's jumbled.
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It it's all over the place.
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It's real and true to life, I think.
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And I think sometimes we give ourselves maybe even these expectations of I can only lament for this long.
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I we have this, I don't know, set of rules, maybe even sometimes around our grief and our sorrow.
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Um, we should be over this by now.
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I talk about, I talk sometimes about how we do the shoulds, we're doing the should all over ourselves.
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But I don't think that's true of scripture.
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And why do you think it's so important for us to bring these questions and doubts and lament to the Lord?
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Well, first thing, he already knows we have them.
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I mean, it's not a surprise, right?
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Before a word's even on our tongues, he knows what we're thinking and feeling anyway.
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So that's the first thing.
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The second thing is he is the God of all comfort.
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He is the God who understands and knows the plan.
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He is the God who is near to the brokenhearted.
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So he longs to comfort you.
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He longs to be there with you.
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And listen, sometimes even as you're wrestling it out with him and lamenting with him, he has to whisper some correction.
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But if you're not willing to be in that wrestling embrace with him, you're not close enough to hear him tell you the things you need to hear.
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You're not close enough to feel or experience the comfort and the peace that passes understanding.
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You're not close enough to hear him go, hey Angela, that's really not right.
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But I mean, look at even the life of Job, right?
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I haven't even touched that book yet.
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Job is complaining about God and he's like, I just want to, I just want to come to him and state my case.
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And you know, God's response to Job is not here's why.
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His response to Job is, remember who I am.
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You don't know all of the things that are going on.
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And Job's response to God wasn't, but I should.
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His response to God was, I really I forgot what I am.
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I'm gonna cover my mouth.
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I'm sorry, you are way holier than I ever gave you credit for.
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:13.919
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I I love how you pointed that out that God didn't give him the reasons why, but he said, This is my character, this is who I am in this situation.
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You know, and sometimes we're not ready to accept that.
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But I love how you said we have to be close enough to hear his voice and close enough, which means that we're not stiff arming him.
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We're trying to lean in instead of pull away.
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I'm gonna go back to can you remember a time or an experience that you had where you really felt the comfort of God during those those losses with your two babies?
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Yes, definitely.
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But I'll tell you this: I don't know if I necessarily felt it while I was there, but when I look back, I saw it.
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So let me encourage you that sometimes you're like, God wasn't there.
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And if you don't see it while you're experiencing it, ask God to show you where He was.
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Because I would have probably said, I didn't really, I don't know if you'd asked me that close.
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Um but looking back, I have seen so many cases with that first tubal pregnancy while I was bleeding internally for that long.
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I was never alone that day.
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I was always alone with my daughter.
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I shouldn't say always, but I'm a stay-at-home mom.
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You know, my husband would leave, I'd be alone with her.
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That day, God made sure I was never alone.
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Before my husband left for work, a friend came over and hung out with me.
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When she had to leave, another friend came over.
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As she was leaving, my mom and my sister came in.
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That whole day that I could have passed out and died and only had a toddler in the room with me.
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God was there.
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What a comfort.
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What a comfort that he made sure somebody was there with me.
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:09.360
And then with my second pregnancy, I we were actually supposed to be on a riverboat cruise and we just happened to go ahead and get insurance on that trip.
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:10.879
My husband had time off.
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He's a physician and he never has time off.
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.639
So he was able to be with me the whole time during that experience.
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:23.360
And when I had to rush to the emergency room because it was um clearly rupturing again, he was able to be there.
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.399
We caught it earlier that time, so didn't have a blood transfusion.
00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:32.000
So I can look back and see the Lord's hand and the timing and the way he did all of that.
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And that was a comfort to me.
00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:39.679
And a lot of times we want to dismiss those things to chance in the moment.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.200
But it echoes back to what you said about lamentations.
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.879
This I call to mind.
00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:46.639
This is what I remember.
00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.559
And then I have hope.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:50.960
So your husband is a physician.
00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:52.879
How did he deal with that?
00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:56.480
Because I can imagine he's a little bit of a fixer, maybe.
00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:57.759
He's a doctor.
00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.759
Do you mind just sharing maybe a little bit of that if you're comfortable?
00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:03.200
Sure, certainly.
00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.639
He um he is a fixer.
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:15.120
And seeing me deal with all of that medical stuff that he couldn't fix was really, really hard on him.
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:22.960
And I will be honest, I wish I'd done a better job of talking to him about things or even hearing him.
00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:26.240
When he kept telling me, Angela, you could have died, Angela, you could have died.
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.000
I went through it and I was like, I wasn't gonna die.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:29.679
I was fine, you know?
00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:40.000
And it wasn't until I started writing the book that I wrote that I realized, I mean, I'm a nurse too, I know better, that I realized I really could have died.
00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:43.840
And that was a super dangerous situation both times.
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:49.279
And honestly, if I'd been born even if it happened even 10 years ago, I might not have made it.
00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.480
So God was so faithful in that.
00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.879
But he, yes, those two things were really, really hard on him.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:01.919
And at that point, after the second one, he was kind of like, I'm not ready to even think about kids.
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.399
And I'm like, but I want more, I want more.
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:09.600
And so he graciously allowed us to move on to IVF relatively quickly.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.639
But yeah, I definitely that was a challenge for him.
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:20.080
It was a challenge in our relationship because I really didn't understand until multiple years later how dangerous it really was.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:21.759
Yeah, for sure.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:31.600
I think a lot of times if we're married, we realize at some point, but usually not in the moment, that our spouses are dealing with the grief differently than we are.
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:39.120
Sometimes even in a completely different time, your timing and his necessarily don't match, which is probably God's grace, right?
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:42.080
It's probably good if we're not both falling apart at the same time.
00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:43.519
Thank you for sharing that.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:50.639
So then walk us through what those next years of trying to conceive, because we know you mentioned the beginning you have three children.
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:55.840
So I'm imagining that it was a journey to have two more kids.
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:57.120
It was a journey.
00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:03.519
And let me be honest, most people who deal with infertility, it's not I do it at breakneck speed.
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:04.960
Let's just put it that way.
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:16.480
Most people don't lose their fertility in essentially six months because most of the time you, you know, it takes years and years and years to find out what might be wrong or to figure out.
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:18.400
And a lot of times it's unexplained.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.640
For us, we knew exactly what the problem was.
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.400
I had a plumbing problem.
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.400
Both of my tubes had ruptured.
00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:30.640
I ruptured super early in pregnancy, so it wasn't really safe for me to try to naturally again.
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.359
So we moved on to IVF relatively quickly.
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:45.119
And from the time of my first ruptured ectopic pregnancy to the time of having my first IVF baby was like a year and a half.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:47.920
So it was boom.
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:54.079
So uh talk about whiplash, talk about like almost not having a chance to process everything.
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.559
It probably would have been wise for me to slow down.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:03.200
But at that point in my desires to make my dreams come true, I didn't um slow down and process.
00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:05.599
So I kind of had to slow down and process later.
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:06.480
Yeah.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.960
Um, but yeah, so that was interesting.
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:11.599
And then we had babies in the freezer.
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:22.559
So um when we prayed about IVF, we knew we were going to, we believed that life is super important in all of its iterations, even in its smallest.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:31.599
And so every embryo that survived to the point where they could be transferred, we were going to give the opportunity at life outside the dish, as I call it.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:38.559
Um, and so we almost had a heart attack when we first heard that we had about 21 embryos.
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:40.720
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:50.000
Um, and then um, but then there was so much loss in between the first and um and through the point where they could be transferred.
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:54.559
So at the point where they could be transferred, I believe we had, I think it's nine, is that right?
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.640
Yeah, I think we froze seven, if I have that right.
00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.519
For years we had babies in a freezer a couple hours away from our house.
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.440
And that definitely affected my life.
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:15.519
And I didn't even realize it that much until at looking back when we were able to take the final three embryos home in my womb, even though none of I did not end up pregnant.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.480
Um, that was a relief because I I'd done what I could do for all my babies.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:21.920
They were home with me.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.359
So we had um we transferred two on our first cycle.
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:33.759
They originally it was both of them implanted, so I was gonna have twins, and then one twin stopped developing, so I ended up with one, and that's more loss.
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:41.119
Um then we transferred two and I didn't get pregnant, then we transferred two more, and only one implanted and I got my son.
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.920
And then, like I said, the final three did not uh implant.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.759
So loss after loss after loss, grief after grief after grief, joy in between.
00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:56.240
Um not at all the road I imagined.
00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:57.200
Yeah.
00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:05.440
So do you mind talking maybe a little bit about what it was like to finally kind of slow down and process some of that loss?
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:27.279
Because I I'm thinking about the special needs mom who's listening, who in the middle of the chaos of being in and out of the hospital and taking care of your kid or running from behavior issue to behavior issue to, you know, being afraid that your child's gonna hurt you because they have explosive behaviors, especially when they're going through puberty and they might have a diagnosis of like autism.
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:40.000
You don't really have the luxury, I guess I would say, to slow down to really process how different your life looks and and the loss.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:45.599
But at the same time, at some point you want to keep thriving, right?
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.440
You don't want to just live in survival mode, you know, all the time.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.640
And I think that's really hard for us to figure out how to do that.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.640
Do you have any thoughts about that?
00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:08.240
Yeah, I think there's lots of different opportunities, but you have to carve out some time for you to be able to do that.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:17.759
Whether that means I have a time I wake up early every morning, I know that for most of people with special needs kids, there's very little.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:21.599
You try your best to have a routine, but it's always interrupted.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.119
So find your time.
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:31.440
As soon as it's quiet in the house for whatever reason, maybe somebody's taking a nap, find that time and use it to go to the Lord.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:33.359
Use it to process.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:37.839
Um, when you have an opportunity for some respite care, take it.
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:47.279
It is not weakness, it is not running from what God has given you to give yourself an opportunity to rest and breathe in Him.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:59.759
I encourage people to find as much as you can a godly, wise counselor, licensed, preferably, to help you walk through these things because listen, especially.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.960
Needs caregiving is a gift.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:06.160
It is also a big, big weight.
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:08.240
And I want you to know you are seen.
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.960
You are seen by God, but you are also seen by others.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:16.720
And I know sometimes you feel like, yeah, I'm seen by others because they see my kid acting out and they're judging me.
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:21.359
But let me tell you, you are seen by other people who see you and are and are praying for you.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.799
You are seen by others who know that you're there.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.279
So give yourself permission.
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:29.519
Take the break when you can.
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:37.599
And then just daily, listen, I know most of the time your prayers are going to be, Lord, help me process this, Lord, help me, help me deal with this, help me whatever.
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:39.200
And it's going to be a quick one.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:45.200
But never, never stop calling out to him with those prayers because those are also valuable.
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:53.599
It that does not mean I'm not as good of a Christian because most of my prayers are popcorn prayers instead of I can sit down for 30 minutes and pray.
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:54.559
Yeah.
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:56.079
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:57.680
That's so, so good.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.799
You know, you talked a lot about praying and a little bit about scripture.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.960
Was there a particular scripture that became an anchor for you during your journey?
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:12.160
And how did God use that to encourage you along the way?
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.200
So listen, I'm a huge Bible nerd.
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.000
I have my master's in biblical and theological studies.
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:26.880
So God used a lot of different scriptures throughout, but one of the ones that really kept coming back was Daniel 3.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.000
And that's Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego's story, right?
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:32.160
They're walking through the fiery furnace.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:39.039
And they're standing there in front of King Nebuchadnezzar, and the king's like, listen, you need to bow down or we're throwing you in.
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.720
And they say, We don't even have to answer you, oh king.
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:48.160
Our God is able to save us from the fiery furnace.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:54.720
But even if he doesn't, and that's the key, but even if he doesn't, we will not bow down to anyone or anything else.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:59.759
And because they made that claim, Jesus was with them in the fire.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:14.640
And so what I had to tell myself through those really difficult times, what I'm encouraging your listeners to do is say, God, I don't want to bow down to the idol of having healthy kids who don't have disabilities.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:26.720
I don't want to bow down to the idol of my life would be different or easier or whatever, to stiff arming God or to holding so tight to my dreams that I can't see you working here.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:50.720
And so help me to bow down to you here, no matter what that looks like, whether I have another child or not, whether um for you all, whether whether my autistic kiddo who goes through puberty is not violent or not, whatever it is, whatever those dreams or hopes are, I'm laying them on the altar, Lord, for you because I want to worship you and not what I want.
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:51.759
Yeah.
00:24:52.160 --> 00:25:03.440
And I think that's one of the things that is so important is I think a lot of times we are bound down to the idol of comfort, and that peace is the absence of suffering.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.880
And that's absolutely not the case, right?
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:18.160
There's there's peace in the middle and and peace in the chaos and peace in the fire, that they were convinced that this is what God had for them going into the fire.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.720
And even if God didn't rescue them, that God was still faithful.
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:25.119
And I think that's really tough.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:31.359
And we can believe that in good times, and then when the fire comes, it can be hard to cling to that truth again.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:32.799
But it's so important.
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.240
So I know, and we're kind of talking about this.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:42.640
Like when we go through hard things and we go through suffering, the battle is a lot of times in our head, right?
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.920
It's what we're believing, and is that belief only in our head?
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.440
Is it actually something we believe in our heart?
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:54.400
It's causing us to trust that's affecting our daily steps and behavior.
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.359
Why do you think that our thought life is so important?
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:05.039
And how can we stop those spiraling thoughts that can sometimes seem very impossible to control in the moment?
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:07.039
Because I think we've all dealt with that.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:08.160
Yes, yes.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.559
Well, first thing, God cares about our thinking.
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.799
I mean, that's why there's so many scripture, right?
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:21.119
Um, in Second Corinthians, he tells us that we have to demolish these ideas that stand up against God and that we have to take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.559
In Philippians 4, he talks about the whatever's whatever is pure and holy and true, all of those things.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:27.599
Think about such things.
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:35.119
And here's the thing our thinking translates into what we do because as we think, so we do.
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:43.279
And I know we laugh about that sometimes, but it is so, so true because we even see it in athletes, right?
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.960
Athletes do better when they think about how they can better shoot the ball.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:52.960
I mean, they have to do the practice and do all that stuff, but the more you think about the right way, your body's gonna do it better.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:54.640
And so that's science.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:01.039
So there's scientific reason why our thinking matters, there's biblical reason why our thinking matters.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:09.599
And then we see too, what was it, Chuck Swindle who was like, um, you know, I'm convinced that 99% of life is our attitude, right?
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.960
And our attitude comes from the things that we're thinking and focusing on.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:18.160
And it is so, so valuable to think about what we're thinking.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:27.759
And so the ways we can help spiraling thoughts, there's there's several different ways, but one of the best ways is to get a pattern interrupt.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.160
So, like in classrooms, right?
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:39.519
When kids are talking and it's so, so loud, you know, you've got these teachers who go class, class, and then they're taught to go what, what, and then they start settling down or whatever it is.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:43.119
So you can get a pattern interrupt for your own brain.
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:47.680
Because our our thought spirals start so fast, it's sometimes hard to realize.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:53.359
And then all of a sudden, when we catch that, oh, we're spiraling, it's hard to know how do I stop that pattern?
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.319
So start asking questions of your own thoughts.
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:02.559
And I love that Philippians 4 8, which is where all of those, the whatever is whatever is pure, lovely.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:03.440
Is this pure?
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:04.559
Is this lovely?
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:05.680
Is this true?
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:06.880
Is this honorable?
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:08.480
Is it of praiseworthy?
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:13.359
And and so asking yourself those questions can suddenly go, wait, it's not.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.640
Is this especially that question of is it true?
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.400
So, yeah, so those are the things that can kind of help.
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.480
Yeah, that's really, really good.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.640
So I'm a former elementary school teacher.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:28.640
So, you know, you have the clapping thing or you have the the response.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:36.640
And it is true that you have to have those pattern interruptions, I think that's what you called it, to stop those spiraling thucks.
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.240
I had this happen to me just a few weeks ago.
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:52.799
My son got married, and then all of a sudden, you're a couple days after, when you're kind of coming down the high of just the beauty of all of that, I just had all these fears, completely irrational fear.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:57.920
And I would say that personally, I'm not usually giving over to a lot of fear.
00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:00.640
I just am not a not a super fearful person.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.200
That's not a part of my personality.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.680
But I really had to go, Lord, where is this coming from?
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.640
I need you to stop this because this is not truth.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.640
And I had to go back to the truth.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:14.799
What's the truth about this?
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:19.359
What's the truth about my relationship with him and my new daughter in love?
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:22.079
What is the relationship with all of these things?
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.559
And I really had to do that interrupt because those fears were spiraling fast.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.240
And it was late at night too.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:29.759
So that doesn't help.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:39.680
Listen, our thoughts late at night, that's probably one of the worst times because we're tired and there's not a whole lot else going on, and our thoughts just start going, whoa.
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:42.720
When you start feeling like that, oh, I'm getting anxious.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.480
Like, okay, so why am I getting anxious?
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.079
Oh, that's where my thought has gone.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:48.400
Okay, so why is my thought gone here?
00:29:48.640 --> 00:30:00.720
And then just knowing the character of God, knowing what he has done, not only in scriptural past, but in your own past, can help you tell yourself, no, God's faithful.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:01.599
That's not a problem.
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:02.960
No, God is able.
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:07.920
No, even if he doesn't, just like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendigo, he's gonna walk me through this.
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:12.240
I might not like it, it might be uncomfortable, but I can trust him in it.
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:13.119
Yeah.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:20.559
I think that harkens back to what we talked about earlier of just the remember, the remember, the remember.
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:28.720
This I call to mind, this I called a mind, which might end up being the title of this podcast because I think it's just been a theme throughout.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:31.440
So let's switch gears just a little bit.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.480
Looking back now, you have three children who are grown.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:47.440
How has your understanding of God's faithfulness changed and developed through the years of way back when you've had all these losses walking through the IBF journey and now having three adult children?
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:49.920
You have a lot of hindsight, I would say.
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:51.759
I do, I do.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:31:02.799
I look back and I realize that there are opportunities for me to stay concerned or worried or in grief every step of the way, right?
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:18.880
I mean, I think we we kind of have a mark that we'll put out there if only, if only God had given me the kids that he wanted, if only I could be happy now, if only my kiddos didn't have this disability, I could be happy now, whatever it is.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:19.359
Yeah.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:24.000
But here's the thing even if he gave you that, you'd have something else.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:30.240
You know, when you've had your tubal pregnancies, as soon as you see the double line, you're like, oh my gosh, are they gonna survive?
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:34.559
Okay, once you make it past the place where, okay, they're not in my tubes, okay, that's good.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.839
Now are they gonna have any issues throughout the whole pregnancy, right?
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.519
Okay, now now they're born there.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.200
Okay, now are they developing correctly?
00:31:41.359 --> 00:32:02.799
Now are they, you know, and we can spend all of our energy so worried about the what ifs or so upset that God didn't do something different in our lives that we miss out on the joy that he has for us today, that we miss out on opportunities to see him walking with us through the fire.
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.200
And that has a lot to do with what's going on in our brain.
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:10.880
Are we focused on the thing we wanted from God, or are we focused on who God is?
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:26.799
He is worthy, he is God, he is beautiful, and my whole life, no matter if it ever looks the way I want it to or not, is worth something because he created me and because he has a plan and a purpose, even if I never understand it.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:27.759
Yeah.
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:33.119
And I just want to highlight because I think we can so easily gloss over that.
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:39.680
It do we want more of what we want, we want God to give us, or do we want more of him?
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.920
And I mean, the truth is that he wants more of us, he wants all of us.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.680
I listened to Shane and Shane, the worship initiative.
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:54.240
They have a daily devotional that is music, and I love music and singing.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:33:00.880
And today's song was Reckless Love and and just how God pursues us.
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:15.599
And at the very end, the one Shane gave the analogy of when I was pursuing my wife and I was getting ready to propose to her, and I knew that she was going to be unfaithful to me in our marriage over and over and over again.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.000
And I still decided to propose to her and marry her.
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.599
He said, Everyone would tell me that's ridiculous.
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:24.880
Like, why would you do that?
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:26.160
You're you're mad.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.680
You're just setting yourself up for heartache and failure.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.279
But yeah, as the bride of Christ, that's what Jesus did for us.
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:57.759
He came into the world pursuing us, knowing we were gonna reject him, created us knowing we were gonna reject him, then came into the world to die, to offer us the redemption of salvation, and knowing that the children of Israel, like you mentioned earlier, we're constantly turning to idols and turning to all these things that are never gonna satisfy us except him and and fully him.
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:02.880
So I don't know if you have any comments on that, but yeah, if you don't, that's okay.
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:08.480
Yes, God's is so worth all of our lives.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:14.480
I mean, that's why Romans 12 2 tells us, in view of God's mercy, let's live as living sacrifices, right?
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:18.159
I don't have the exact quote, sorry, but it's it's in Romans 12, it's one and two.
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:18.639
Yeah.
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:24.000
So be a living sacrifice because he is worth it.
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.079
His love for us is worth it.
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.719
He is beautiful, he is good, he loves you so much, he has a plan and a purpose.
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:36.719
And so when we can really fully live like we believe that, that changes a lot of things.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.599
It still gives room for grief, it still has room for lament.
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:47.280
There's not that I'm not saying don't do those things because there's still those broken things in this world, but we can say, I trust you in the midst of this.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.559
And that's where that peace that passes understanding comes.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:52.800
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:02.719
So not everyone who's listening has experienced the journey that you have of infertility and miscarriage and loss.
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:10.880
But I know everyone who's listening has experienced the disappointment, unanswered prayers, um, prayers not being answered the way that we thought they would be.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:15.840
So, what do you hope every listener would take away from your story that you're sharing today?
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:26.320
Well, first, that God is worth our whole life, that he is so good, and that he loves you.
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:33.679
And even though he's that big and amazing and good, he sees each and every one of you.
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:43.840
And he loves you, and he has good plans for you and purposes in your life that you are living out even in the midst of the grief.
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:50.559
And so keep seeking him, keep looking for his light because it is there.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:57.360
He is near to the brokenhearted, he loves you, he sees you, and he knows you.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:00.159
That's so good.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:08.239
Will you tell the listeners the story of your book because they might be going through this themselves or have a friend or family member?
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.440
And then also where they can find you online.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:14.239
And I'll have all the links to this in the show notes.
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:14.960
Yeah.
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:21.760
Well, the title of my book is Difficult to Conceive: A Godly Perspective for the Road Ahead.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:29.519
And it is the book I kind of wish I had when I was dealing with my infertility and pregnancy loss situation.
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.880
So it tells bits of my story, but really it's all about what God was teaching me in those times.
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:39.119
So we're gonna talk about all the women who dealt with infertility in the Bible.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.039
We're gonna talk about asking God why.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:46.800
We're gonna talk about the battle in our minds that we were discussing earlier and so many other things.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.360
So that's what that book is about and for.
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.599
You can find it on Amazon or anywhere good books are sold.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:04.880
And then you can find me at angelamackie.com and it's just spelled the normal way A-N-G-E-L-A-MACI-M-A-C-K-E-Y dot com.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:15.119
And if you sign up for my newsletter, I have a free 10-minute filter to help you stop spiraling thoughts based on Philippians 4.8.
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.840
So I'd love to get that in your hands as well.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:19.360
That's great.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:21.840
Thank you, Angela, for being a guest today.
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:26.559
I know this is really going to encourage the women and families who are listening.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.599
So thank you.
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:29.519
Thank you for having me.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:37.519
If you have enjoyed this podcast, would you do Carrie a favor and hit the subscribe button to where you listen to podcasts?
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:39.599
Also, leave a review.
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.360
This helps the podcast to become more visible to others.
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:54.159
If you would like to share your story on the podcast, visit Carrie's website, CarrieMHolt.com backslash podcast, and fill out the form.
00:37:54.400 --> 00:38:02.559
You can find Carrie online on Facebook and Instagram, and on her Substack page at CM Holt.
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:07.440
Thank you for joining us today on this unexpected life podcast.
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:12.239
Real stories, real hope in this unexpected journey.
