WEBVTT
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Hello, and welcome to Season 10, Episode 6 of the Virtual Coffee Podcast.
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Virtual Coffee is an intimate community of people at all stages of their tech journey, and we're here on this podcast sharing insights, experiences, and the lessons that we've all learned along the way.
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I'm Bekah, and I'm here today with my co host, Dan.
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Thanks, Bekah.
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This season we're diving deep into our back pocket topics from our Tuesday Virtual Coffees.
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Today's topic, building relationships in open source.
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We are grateful to be sponsored by Level Up Financial Planning that helps you take your financial confidence to the next level.
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It's real financial planning to help you reach your goals and gain clarity on what actions you need to take now to maximize your tech career.
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Level Up even has a podcast where you can hear about some of the strategies he uses with his clients.
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Check out levelupfinancialplanning.
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com.
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You can get that link in our show notes.
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All right, so now it's time to grab your favorite drink, settle in, and let's get started with today's Virtual Coffee podcast.
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We hope you enjoy this episode.
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Yo, how's it going Bek?
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Hey, it's going all right.
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How's it going with you?
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We'll
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I am doing well.
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It is the third week, starting the third week of Hacktoberfest.
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um, yeah, so I hope everybody's having fun.
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And today we are talking about Building relationships in open source.
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Yes.
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I think this is, like, one of the things that's most important, but maybe that we talk about the least during Hacktoberfest.
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It's all about, like, you gotta get those four PRs, but what are the ultimate goals of actually contributing to open source?
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Yeah.
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Uh, you know, and I believe that we on this podcast, especially have talked about, uh, this sort of thing a lot.
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Um, the value of contributing to open source outside of, I don't know, just making your GitHub profile look, look cool.
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Right.
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Um, which is like, which is not nothing, you know, um, don't want to like discount that, but the, the, there's, know, we find open source contributions to be very, very valuable.
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And one of the reasons is because of the relationships that you can build up over, over your time.
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Yeah, I saw this, uh, thing on Twitter recently where somebody was saying how important it is to build your network, especially if you are just getting into tech, and a bunch of people in the comments below were like, I'm new, but I don't know how to build my network.
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Like, what does that mean?
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How do you do it?
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And there were a lot of recommendations, but I think like, this is a great time to be building your network.
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Um, because you're already involved.
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There's a community of people that are all doing the same thing.
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So, you know, at Virtual Coffee, we're doing it as a small group, but It's a huge event that's sponsored by DigitalOcean, so there are lots of people out there.
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There are many different communities and organizations that are putting on events, but also, you have the communities, the open source communities themselves.
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And so, there's plenty of opportunities.
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Well, you have to get out of your comfort zone.
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I feel like anytime I try to expand my network or to build relationships I'm getting out of my comfort zone.
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So you like you might have to put yourself out there a little bit You might have to ask questions, but you know, you can also answer questions, too And so I think that It's important to identify, to number one, realize there's so many opportunities at this point, um, of the month to be able to expand those, but that extends beyond here, and ideally, you want to build relationships that extend beyond Hacktoberfest, too, so maybe the goal is not necessarily those four pull requests, but maybe it's four relationships that you can build during this month.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You know, we, we talk a lot during Hacktoberfest about how to find, you know, how to find places to contribute.
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And we've talked about And there's, there's lots of resources for that.
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Um, I think one of the best ways to build relationships in open source is to become a, uh, repeat contributor to a project.
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Um, and there's value for that on both sides.
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You know, there's value just for, for you as a contributor.
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Um, if you get more and more familiar with the project, your work will be better and, you know, probably easier, or you'll be able to take on more challenging tasks.
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You know, projects or issues.
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Uh, and obviously if you are helpful and you keep coming back to help, um, you're the maintainers of the project will, will know you and trust you, uh, as well, which can have just tremendous benefits, uh, down the line and, and they can't always be predicted.
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We, it's not a transaction, you know, It's, you know, it's building trust capital, like we talked about.
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It's, uh, it's that sort of thing.
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Um, and expanding your network and, there's just so many benefits to this sort of, this sort of thing.
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I think it's, I honestly, I think it's one of the, like the, the, the, you know, I'm like, none of us like to talk about like building your network, you know, obviously, but the, it kind of comes for free here with, you know, with contributing, right?
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So if you think of it as, you know, if you hate networking, you know, you don't like, you're not good at it, all that sort of thing, which I'm not either.
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Um, the, but you like doing development stuff or any, any kind of open source work.
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Um, it's, it like comes for free.
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As long as you are like, you know, actually trying to be helpful and not trying to get something out of it and, uh, are respectful and all that stuff.
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Um, the network comes built in, uh, lots of times.
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Yeah, and I see, so years ago I used to listen to this podcast, um, and it was about screenwriting.
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And one of the pieces of advice that I've always carried with me is look at the person who's one step ahead of you.
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And so, in terms of like screenwriting, they're saying if you're trying to sell your screenplay, look at someone who's just done the thing that you're trying to do right now.
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Because it might not seem like the best person, maybe you want to talk to that movie executive or whatever, but that's not the person that you're going to connect with or build a relationship with.
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They're at a very different stage, their time is very limited, and so, but that person ahead of you.
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It's going to remember you if you build that relationship with them.
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And eventually they might be that new movie executive, or they might have some pull over what gets made.
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And I think the same thing that applies here.
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You know, we often have this feeling of like, well, I have a question.
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I need to connect with the maintainer.
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The maintainer is not answering my question.
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But in some ways, that's kind of like the movie executive role.
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Like, you bypass all the other people that are working on and supporting the project.
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Depending on the size of the project, and you went to the person at the top, but maybe, you know, one of these ways to build relationships and goodwill is to, you know, see, okay, this person has already done a contribution here, I'm going to talk to them, I'm going to go into the community, and I'm going to ask a general question, I'm not going to at the maintainer in the comments or in discussions or whatever, I'm going to Build relationships with people who are where I want to be next and I think that you can learn a lot in that way and it also will eventually build you goodwill with a maintainer.
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Yeah.
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not working, all that stuff, which can be very frustrating, you know, uh, there's lots of ways to go about, uh, you know, Helping, helping yourself, helping the, the project.
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And usually adding a maintainer is never one of them, you know, um, the maintainers are going to see everything they're subscribed to the repository.
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Like, trust me, you know what I mean?
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And so, um, when you add a maintainer, you know, it, it can, it'll limit maybe the amount of people that respond to you, you know, maybe some people might respond, Don't like think they should, because you are asking the maintainer, you know, um, that, that sort of thing.
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And it's also just a, you know, I mean, it's just kind of a sign of impatience or, uh, a little bit of lack of respect, even if you aren't being like, even if you aren't, uh, you know, your words aren't rude, right.
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I mean, like we can all like pick out like.
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Oh, this person is just like plainly being rude, you know, and you don't mean to be rude, but there are ways to like, do this sort of thing, like add a maintainer, even if your request is politely worded, you know, um, it's, it's like kind of pushy, right.
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Or something like that.
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And maintainers lots of times have enough on their plates to not want to, um, have to deal with people being like pushing themselves into their face, you know.
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Yeah, I, um, was listening to this podcast, The Secret Sauce, with, uh, the episode with Evan Yu, who's the creator of VIEW, and I think VEET, right?
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Anyway, he was talking about the importance of, like, how do you get to be, it was, like, maybe on the core team or something like that.
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And I think that, you know, this kind of, like, extends what we're talking about here, because one of the things that he said was there was this, uh, younger contributor who, um, first what he did was really understood the project.
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He understood the vision.
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of what he was contributing to.
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He understood the style of code that he was supposed to be submitting, right?
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And then he created pull requests that reflected that he had taken the time to understand the project and the requirements and he consistently submitted Quality pull requests.
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And so Evan noticed this and then, you know, this formed a relationship.
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So, you know, I think one of the things when we talk about relationship building we can think about is also you know, if you're doing all of the right things That can be noticed by other people who maybe you haven't had a conversation with or a maintainer that is out of your reach, but if you're consistently, um, submitting quality work, then that for sure will be noticed and that can help build the relationship and your credibility as well.
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Yeah.
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I mean, absolutely.
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That's the ways that you approach these sort of things, you know, I mean, I mean, this goes back to like being a good open source, you know, citizen, I suppose.
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Um, but it's all, you know, this is all, I know the benefits are all like tied up together, right?
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Like if you want your pull requests to be accepted, if you want your issue to be assigned, all of that stuff, um, you know, there's lots and lots of ways to, uh, help your chances of doing that, but it also, so like, which like will get your pull requests merged, you know, like there's, there's lots of ways to improve your chances of that happening.
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Right.
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And.
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It also improves your, your network and your, you know, it improves the relationship and, and especially like I said before, if you are, I mean, we've both said it a million times, but if you're a repeat contributor, um, and, It's just, it's honestly, as a person who is maintaining projects, whether it's open source or not, or work or anything, um, knowing that you can trust somebody else to work on this project that you've created, uh, is such a good feeling, you know, and it's so valuable.
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and becoming that person, I think is also a good feeling.
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I like being the person who, you know, Somebody can trust, you know, uh, a lot, you know, and, and so that's, it's why it's, it's, it is kind of nice to find some of these smaller projects maybe, or different projects and work your way up.
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So like going back to what you were talking about before of, of looking at the person like one step ahead of you.
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Another way to think about that is, um, finding smaller projects that aren't maybe as exciting.
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They're not flashy.
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Like it's not, I mean, put it on your resume if there's room, but like, it's not like, Oh, I contributed to.
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React, I contributed to this thing, you know, but there are millions and millions of packages out there or projects or open source, anything.
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And finding ones with smaller communities where you can kind of build a little bit of a network.
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Um, I think it's a really, really good way to do that too.
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And you never know, you never know what, what is going to happen, you know, down the line.
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But, uh, even if nothing else happens, you have maybe a friend and somebody who kind of know, you know, knows your name at least a little bit and also like a lot of experience and Et cetera.
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There's just like, it's just so many benefits at it.
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You know, it's, it's hard to, I don't know.
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It's hard to stop talking about the different ways that it is good.
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Yeah, I think, you know, another way that you can build a relationship is offering to help in ways that might not be obvious.
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So some of the obvious ways of helping are submitting pull requests of triaging issues.
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Um, that's kind of part of the regular flow of open source.
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So if you're new to open source, That might not be obvious to you, but that, that's something that you'll learn and you'll grow in.
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But other things that are less obvious might be, Hey, um, can I help as a code of conduct responder in your Discord?
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Or can I write a blog post for you?
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Or, you know, what help do you need?
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Like, asking the maintainers, because sometimes, you know, uh, there are people that sometimes need help writing a newsletter or raising money or raising awareness.
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So that can be another way to build, uh, trust capital to be a way to build those relationships.
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Um, and those are some things, those are things that you can continue to do beyond Hacktoberfest.
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Um, I would say like another way that I've seen recently to get involved in build those relationships.
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is through Reddit.
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And I, I don't recommend Reddit very often because anytime I post in Reddit, if it's not cat Reddit, then people just like sloy on me immediately.
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So beware, that's your warning.
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But there are a lot of people that like ask for help on their projects.
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And it's the kind of projects that you're just talking about, about Dan, like the small projects, like Hey, I have this project I'm really excited about, but I have no contributors.
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Like, how do I get contributors?
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And, you know, a lot of times I'll respond to them and be like, hey, maybe you should write some issues, or there's not a contributing guide, or something like that.
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But, um, sometimes that's where people are reaching out for help on their projects, and it's a more visible way than you would find on, like, in personal discords or whatever.
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Yeah.
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It's really interesting.
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Is there a specific subreddit
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Yes.
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that you would recommend
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I would say the open source subreddit is where I've seen it, um, and then maybe like slash github too.
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Okay.
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Nice.
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Yeah.
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Who knew?
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Not me.
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I learned, I learned about reddit this year, so.
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Nice.
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Yeah.
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All right.
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Um, that, no, that's really interesting.
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And like that kind of thing, cause I feel like the kinds of questions that people are asking or, you know, requests for help, like that kind of thing, it's hard to, I mean, maybe you could, maybe you would see it on Twitter or something, but it's, there's not like another place I can think of where it's all collected and it's not just one community, but you know, like lots of people, um, on one, on the, on that topic.
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And it's less like, You know, it's not just issues or whatever or some, or, or stack overflow where it's just like specific questions, you know.
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Um, that's really neat.
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That's a good, I like that.
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Yeah, the other thing about the, you know, again, those small projects and answering a request like that, you often have one on one time with a maintainer, uh, that you wouldn't get with those large projects.
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But, um, You know, I think that this is all, like, valuable experience, and kind of on the other side of things, so we're kind of looking at it from the contributor's perspective, but I think there's a lot of folks out there who are in a maintainer role, or who are in a, an experienced or senior plus role, whatever, that are also looking to, like, provide support for people and to build those relationships.
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And so, um, you might see, like, there's someone willing to spend some time with you.
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But I think, like, maybe we talked in episode three, I think, about big M mentorship versus small M mentorship.
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What do you think are some good ways, uh, to mentor someone during Hacktoberfest?
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Um, so I guess, let me clarify your question.
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Do you mean just a person like we do in Virtual Coffee, or do you mean as a maintainer and a, and you're talking about a potential contributor,
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Oh, that's a good I hadn't thought about the latter, but let's go with that.
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Uh, yeah, because, because that's like, because that's an experience that I've run into a few times.
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And I, you know, a lot of it is tied into Virtual Coffee as well.
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Um, so I, I do kind of know the person already, but it's like first time contributors, that kind of thing.
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Right.
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And so there are a lot of things that you can do, I think, to.
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to help people through that without creating a ton of work on your side, right?
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Cause maintainers, you know, like we don't want to, some things are worth spending time on, you know what I mean?
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But it's, if you can streamline it different ways, you know, and so, uh, a very good readme, I think is, you know, top of the line, also like a contributing guide and they don't have to be Like, especially if you're on a small project, right?
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I don't think I wouldn't say contributing guide is a must for people with smaller projects where they don't expect like lots and lots of contributions.
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I think I would put all that in just in the readme, right?
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You can just have a section in the readme about it.
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Here's what I expect or something like that.
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But laying all that stuff down, um, is, is important and will save you time in the future and also is a point where you can, if you get somebody who is trying to help, but they don't know how, right.
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Would it, so there's like people that have come in that.
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know better or should know better, but don't read the readme.
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Don't read the contributing guide or just like blasting issues or comments or whatever, pull requests.
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Um, you know, those people, you, you can politely, but kind of firmly say, Hey, please like do this this way or whatever.
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But there are, you run into people, especially like around Hacktoberfest where there's lots of first time contributors, um, where they are trying and they don't, they just like are stuck or they don't, they don't know what the best thing to do is that kind of thing.
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That feel, okay for people to like not know how, um, is I think really, really valuable and making it a safe space for somebody to learn.
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And so I think there's, there's ways that you can make your project or your community or anything like that a safe space for people like that as well.
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And, you know, part of that goes back to having a good readme.
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And instead of being like, To read the docs, you know, like, Hey, like, you know, you can answer a question, like, in a more respectful way and say, you know, okay, well, like, I would try it this way.
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Here's like, here's the read me section.
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You know, this is what I try.
00:18:57.699 --> 00:19:00.479
And let me know if that doesn't work, because it is possible you read me as wrong too.
00:19:01.338 --> 00:19:01.588
Right?
00:19:01.638 --> 00:19:04.038
Um, I've run into that with, uh, Yeah.
00:19:04.038 --> 00:19:04.088
Yeah.
00:19:04.378 --> 00:19:14.578
With IU, um, who we talk about all the time here, um, and is amazing, but she is on a, not but, but she is on a Windows computer and I hadn't tried any of our stuff on Windows.
00:19:14.659 --> 00:19:18.288
And that's not like Windows computers are fine and valid, you know what I mean?
00:19:18.308 --> 00:19:20.419
And it was just like this thing that didn't work on Windows.
00:19:20.469 --> 00:19:27.608
And, um, and so it was, you know, I think the readme was incorrect, right, for her.
00:19:27.669 --> 00:19:37.618
And, But we took a while because it was like, she was starting out, this was like years ago, but she was like starting out and we weren't sure, you know, where the problem was, all that stuff.
00:19:37.679 --> 00:19:56.544
Uh, and so it turned out like she learned some stuff and also I corrected the readme or well, she helped, we corrected the readme together, you know, but like the, Um, you know, being willing to, uh, to help people a little bit is, I think goes a long way towards that sort of thing, you know?
00:19:56.943 --> 00:20:02.594
Um, and it can get hard and it's hard to do if somebody files a pull request, right?
00:20:02.653 --> 00:20:06.443
That, you know, they followed all the directions, but you like, don't like it, right?
00:20:06.703 --> 00:20:08.784
That's one, that's a situation I've run into a bunch.
00:20:09.023 --> 00:20:10.023
Uh, have you run into that?
00:20:10.521 --> 00:20:16.416
Like where, they satisfy the requirements of the issue and you just don't quite like how they did it.
00:20:16.467 --> 00:20:16.797
Right.
00:20:17.326 --> 00:20:17.636
Right.
00:20:17.717 --> 00:20:18.586
Yeah, that's tough.
00:20:19.076 --> 00:21:00.531
I mean, because I, I do a lot of documentation maintenance, for me, that it, I have actually run into that quite a bit, um, because there's, it's, we don't have a style guide, um, it's something that can be kind of hard to communicate to other people and to say, like, okay, here's This is how we need to revise it and and to be honest with you This is maybe not like the best way to approach it But sometimes I've just gone through and revised it myself and then merged it in so I mean they still get credit for the pull Requests and sometimes I'll mention like hey, you know, I just needed to make some quick updates before this went in Um, or, hey, we were under a time crunch, so I went ahead and made these updates.
00:21:00.561 --> 00:21:04.922
This is why, if you want to meet one on one to chat about it, then let me know.
00:21:04.932 --> 00:21:20.761
But, yeah, I've definitely run into that, and that does get really tricky to be able to communicate that, especially in an asynchronous environment, to try and explain, like, nuances of things, and the approach can be, um, a hard conversation to have and communicate.
00:21:20.926 --> 00:21:21.267
Yeah.
00:21:21.747 --> 00:21:22.057
Yeah.
00:21:22.057 --> 00:21:22.656
It's tough.
00:21:22.656 --> 00:21:23.866
You mentioned having a style guide.
00:21:23.896 --> 00:21:32.247
I think that's, this goes back to anything that you can get down in writing that you can point to, you know, um, will help the initial stuff.
00:21:32.267 --> 00:21:34.267
And it also helped this sort of situation.
00:21:34.277 --> 00:21:35.257
It's the same with programming.
00:21:35.257 --> 00:21:40.247
I mean, like having a style guide for code is, or can be really important as well.
00:21:40.277 --> 00:21:40.507
Right.
00:21:40.547 --> 00:21:50.872
And that doesn't necessarily, like always It's not always like, oh, your indents and your commas and your semicolons and that kind of thing, because nowadays that can be handled, um, programmatically, right?
00:21:50.922 --> 00:22:05.491
Lots of times, but there are like more like high level style things where if you have some opinions, you know, um, If you can get them down, I think can be really, uh, really valuable.
00:22:05.622 --> 00:22:14.122
And it's not, there's not, you're never going to cover everything, especially with the writing, you know, but, um, like you said, but trying to, there's like different ways to handle it.
00:22:14.162 --> 00:22:15.061
I've done the same thing.
00:22:15.122 --> 00:22:25.731
Um, as, as, as you were, I've just like made the changes, um, and merged it, you know, and I've also tried to work through like, okay, here's why, you know.
00:22:27.156 --> 00:22:27.717
It can be hard.
00:22:27.787 --> 00:22:28.666
Sometimes it's hard.
00:22:28.686 --> 00:22:29.507
It's a hard balance.
00:22:30.267 --> 00:22:31.936
Uh, I want people to learn, right?
00:22:31.987 --> 00:22:45.876
And so it's like, okay, do I, it will take me longer, me personally, longer to A of all write this out and then suggest the changes and then, you know, hope, hope that they're, Like review it again, you know what I mean?
00:22:46.646 --> 00:22:55.497
Um, but if I can do it in a way that they'll actually learn, and it's not just like, change this to this, change this to this, you know what I mean?
00:22:55.567 --> 00:22:57.096
Um, cause I don't think that's valuable.
00:22:57.186 --> 00:23:07.317
Like I, I, if I, if I, if that's all I can come up with personally, then I'll just like, kind of do it, you know, but if I can somehow get into words.
00:23:07.682 --> 00:23:24.511
What I mean by this stuff, like why, you know, um, then I'll either try to make the request and do it, or I will make those changes and write it out as like, this is why I did this, you know, and here's the example of what I mean, you know what I mean?
00:23:24.551 --> 00:23:37.096
Uh, and lots of times to do that, I have to just make the change myself anyway, you know, Have you ever made a change yourself just to do this sort of thing and then thrown it out and asked them to do it?
00:23:37.936 --> 00:23:40.336
No, I've not knocked on down that rabbit hole
00:23:40.396 --> 00:23:40.797
yeah.
00:23:40.967 --> 00:23:41.537
I've done that.
00:23:41.767 --> 00:23:47.467
Cause I needed, like, I basically, for me, I need to see it to like really, um, describe why or whatever, you know?
00:23:47.557 --> 00:24:04.936
I need to like And also sometimes to check that I'm right, or, you know, that like, what I'm thinking of is actually what I'm thinking, you know, um, but I've gone down that road where it's all done and then I discard the commit and, and ask for the, you know what I mean?
00:24:04.946 --> 00:24:08.707
Maybe take a screenshot or something or grab some code, but, um, it's a weird feeling.
00:24:08.707 --> 00:24:08.997
Yeah.
00:24:09.067 --> 00:24:10.586
Uh, and it's, you know.
00:24:11.321 --> 00:24:11.592
I don't know.
00:24:11.612 --> 00:24:16.332
It's, it's all, you know, and I don't think that, um, being a maintainer means you have to like teach people all the time.
00:24:17.031 --> 00:24:20.362
Um, you know, like, I don't, we have that in Virtual Coffee.
00:24:20.362 --> 00:24:21.622
We, we value that.
00:24:21.652 --> 00:24:22.682
And like, it's one of our goals.
00:24:22.682 --> 00:24:22.862
Right.
00:24:22.862 --> 00:24:30.751
But the, I don't think it's any, I don't think it's every main open source maintainer's responsibility to teach people everything.
00:24:30.801 --> 00:24:31.071
Right.
00:24:31.071 --> 00:24:41.207
But there are ways that you can help people, um, without, Spending like the, without doing the kind of stuff I'm talking about, you know, where you're, where you're like, where you're doing that.
00:24:41.237 --> 00:24:51.277
Um, cause that's much more of like a, uh, you know, I, I feel the responsibility to try to help, um, but I don't know that I don't think that's an inherent responsibility for open source maintainers.
00:24:51.446 --> 00:25:03.773
Um, I do think being a little bit patient and being, you know, kind of respectful and the more, like I said, the more you can get down in docs or guides or whatever, uh, the easier that will be both as ways to.
00:25:04.116 --> 00:25:14.847
Catch things before they happen and also as ways to point to, you know, you don't have to feel bad if something's written down and they, and it's like, you know, the, in a pull request is not, followed.
00:25:15.127 --> 00:25:15.738
I don't feel bad.
00:25:15.758 --> 00:25:16.327
You know what I mean?
00:25:16.528 --> 00:25:20.867
Like, uh, about saying, no, you know, you gotta, you gotta change this because here's why, right?
00:25:21.278 --> 00:25:27.337
Um, when I have to come up with the reason why it, and sometimes it's, you know, you get a little bit more
00:25:27.897 --> 00:25:28.218
Yeah.
00:25:28.688 --> 00:25:29.847
internal back and forth anyway.
00:25:30.432 --> 00:25:38.402
Yeah, I think, you know, along the same lines, another good way to build relationships in open source is attending, uh, open office hours.
00:25:38.932 --> 00:25:48.021
And not every project offers these, but like, I know we used to at OpenSauce, like, offer contributors office hours.
00:25:48.031 --> 00:26:15.071
So if they were working on an issue and they were stuck or they had questions, then they knew, like, Thursdays at noon or whatever it was they could come in and they can ask those questions or they can get more context on the project and Um, I know that there are a lot of places that do that I think one of the maintainers of nuxt actually Has a calendly with 10 minute slots that people could book whenever they want Um, and I thought well, that's like that's awesome.
00:26:15.082 --> 00:26:19.906
Like he does a great job of being um, a really supportive maintainer.
00:26:19.916 --> 00:26:22.267
Not everybody has the time to be able to do that.
00:26:22.277 --> 00:26:26.707
It's not necessary, but I think that, like, look for those opportunities, too.
00:26:26.856 --> 00:26:40.386
You know, often they're in the Read Me or the Contributing Guide, or if the, the project has a community page, then it'll share that information there, or they'll share, like, Hey, we're doing this event.
00:26:40.686 --> 00:26:42.037
Like, show up for the event.
00:26:42.636 --> 00:26:52.846
And then I, like, I know I did Twitter spaces pretty much every week for a year for work, and, um, I noticed who came every time, you know?
00:26:53.067 --> 00:27:09.997
And I also was more willing to, like, support that person or help them out, and, because I knew, like, okay, they're interested in learning and growing, and so we've established this relationship, even though we haven't had, like, really a conversation, um, face to face about that thing.
00:27:10.007 --> 00:27:12.926
Like, there's a lot of asynchronous interactions that went with that.
00:27:12.936 --> 00:27:22.557
So, like, also don't underestimate, like, the value of telling someone thank you or leaving a comment on the blog post that they wrote to say, like, Hey, I really appreciated this.
00:27:22.636 --> 00:27:25.636
It helped me to implement this thing in my project.
00:27:25.676 --> 00:27:32.997
Like, those are all ways to kind of, like, build those relationships with the people in open source and go beyond Hacktoberfest.
00:27:33.321 --> 00:27:45.497
Yeah.
00:27:45.497 --> 00:27:57.672
Yeah,
00:27:57.872 --> 00:28:00.951
if somebody is stuck and they just, can't get unstuck.
00:28:01.082 --> 00:28:04.701
They might just, you know, whatever, go to a different project.
00:28:04.701 --> 00:28:04.922
Right.
00:28:04.951 --> 00:28:16.071
But if, if you can provide 10 minutes of support and help them through their thing and say, Hey, you know, let them know that they're valuable to, you know, they might keep coming back and you might end up with a co maintainer even.
00:28:16.372 --> 00:28:16.751
Right.
00:28:17.501 --> 00:28:22.116
Uh, so I think I loved all this, all of those All the things that people do.
00:28:22.126 --> 00:28:22.946
It's, it's great.
00:28:22.967 --> 00:28:25.596
Um, I wish I had time to do like all of them.
00:28:25.636 --> 00:28:26.257
You know what I mean?
00:28:26.307 --> 00:28:33.977
Um, both attend, attend everybody else's things and also like provide all this stuff for myself, you know, and also, um, not get fired at my job.
00:28:33.977 --> 00:28:44.136
So, you know, it's, it's tough balance, but, um, uh, you know, I, I think there's lots of great ways, um, to build those kinds of like relationships in, in open source.
00:28:44.967 --> 00:28:45.727
Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:45.787 --> 00:28:50.636
And I think, you know, it comes down to communicating with other people and continuing to build those connections.
00:28:50.646 --> 00:28:58.846
So, enriching those relationships, understanding the other person and their needs, and, and all of this goes just to the human person.
00:28:58.846 --> 00:29:00.777
Like, we want connections with people.
00:29:00.957 --> 00:29:05.356
It just happens to be that open source is a pretty good path this month.
00:29:05.686 --> 00:29:06.317
Yes.
00:29:06.747 --> 00:29:08.727
I'd say every month, but especially this month.
00:29:10.541 --> 00:29:13.821
Alright, well, we hope that you enjoyed this episode.
00:29:13.821 --> 00:29:17.862
We will be back again next week, and we'll see you soon.
00:29:18.537 --> 00:29:18.866
All right.
00:29:18.866 --> 00:29:19.767
Thanks everyone.
00:29:21.789 --> 00:29:25.220
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast.
00:29:26.690 --> 00:29:35.619
This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel, if you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter@VirtualCoffeeIO or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io.
00:29:36.170 --> 00:29:42.460
You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, buy some VC merch, and check out all of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io.
00:29:42.890 --> 00:29:48.715
If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship.
00:29:49.076 --> 00:29:51.895
Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review.
00:29:52.286 --> 00:29:54.355
Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.
00:00:05.871 --> 00:00:10.170
Hello, and welcome to Season 10, Episode 6 of the Virtual Coffee Podcast.
00:00:11.521 --> 00:00:21.210
Virtual Coffee is an intimate community of people at all stages of their tech journey, and we're here on this podcast sharing insights, experiences, and the lessons that we've all learned along the way.
00:00:21.690 --> 00:00:24.420
I'm Bekah, and I'm here today with my co host, Dan.
00:00:24.827 --> 00:00:25.658
Thanks, Bekah.
00:00:25.717 --> 00:00:29.608
This season we're diving deep into our back pocket topics from our Tuesday Virtual Coffees.
00:00:29.667 --> 00:00:32.908
Today's topic, building relationships in open source.
00:00:33.417 --> 00:00:38.957
We are grateful to be sponsored by Level Up Financial Planning that helps you take your financial confidence to the next level.
00:00:39.148 --> 00:00:45.177
It's real financial planning to help you reach your goals and gain clarity on what actions you need to take now to maximize your tech career.
00:00:45.518 --> 00:00:49.468
Level Up even has a podcast where you can hear about some of the strategies he uses with his clients.
00:00:49.628 --> 00:00:51.487
Check out levelupfinancialplanning.
00:00:51.487 --> 00:00:51.787
com.
00:00:52.188 --> 00:00:53.737
You can get that link in our show notes.
00:00:54.527 --> 00:01:00.357
All right, so now it's time to grab your favorite drink, settle in, and let's get started with today's Virtual Coffee podcast.
00:01:00.878 --> 00:01:02.307
We hope you enjoy this episode.
00:01:09.890 --> 00:01:11.359
Yo, how's it going Bek?
00:01:11.890 --> 00:01:12.790
Hey, it's going all right.
00:01:12.790 --> 00:01:13.459
How's it going with you?
00:01:13.460 --> 00:01:13.641
We'll
00:01:13.810 --> 00:01:15.239
I am doing well.
00:01:15.329 --> 00:01:20.269
It is the third week, starting the third week of Hacktoberfest.
00:01:20.290 --> 00:01:23.129
um, yeah, so I hope everybody's having fun.
00:01:23.250 --> 00:01:27.489
And today we are talking about Building relationships in open source.
00:01:28.579 --> 00:01:29.159
Yes.
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:36.819
I think this is, like, one of the things that's most important, but maybe that we talk about the least during Hacktoberfest.
00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:44.730
It's all about, like, you gotta get those four PRs, but what are the ultimate goals of actually contributing to open source?
00:01:46.180 --> 00:01:46.510
Yeah.
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:53.390
Uh, you know, and I believe that we on this podcast, especially have talked about, uh, this sort of thing a lot.
00:01:53.439 --> 00:02:02.730
Um, the value of contributing to open source outside of, I don't know, just making your GitHub profile look, look cool.
00:02:02.769 --> 00:02:03.019
Right.
00:02:03.260 --> 00:02:14.157
Um, which is like, which is not nothing, you know, um, don't want to like discount that, but the, the, there's, know, we find open source contributions to be very, very valuable.
00:02:14.328 --> 00:02:20.008
And one of the reasons is because of the relationships that you can build up over, over your time.
00:02:20.507 --> 00:02:37.206
Yeah, I saw this, uh, thing on Twitter recently where somebody was saying how important it is to build your network, especially if you are just getting into tech, and a bunch of people in the comments below were like, I'm new, but I don't know how to build my network.
00:02:37.231 --> 00:02:38.521
Like, what does that mean?
00:02:38.532 --> 00:02:39.472
How do you do it?
00:02:39.472 --> 00:02:45.222
And there were a lot of recommendations, but I think like, this is a great time to be building your network.
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Um, because you're already involved.
00:02:47.681 --> 00:02:50.622
There's a community of people that are all doing the same thing.
00:02:50.651 --> 00:02:59.861
So, you know, at Virtual Coffee, we're doing it as a small group, but It's a huge event that's sponsored by DigitalOcean, so there are lots of people out there.
00:03:00.072 --> 00:03:07.181
There are many different communities and organizations that are putting on events, but also, you have the communities, the open source communities themselves.
00:03:07.641 --> 00:03:10.651
And so, there's plenty of opportunities.
00:03:11.687 --> 00:03:13.567
Well, you have to get out of your comfort zone.
00:03:13.907 --> 00:03:20.187
I feel like anytime I try to expand my network or to build relationships I'm getting out of my comfort zone.
00:03:20.227 --> 00:03:53.111
So you like you might have to put yourself out there a little bit You might have to ask questions, but you know, you can also answer questions, too And so I think that It's important to identify, to number one, realize there's so many opportunities at this point, um, of the month to be able to expand those, but that extends beyond here, and ideally, you want to build relationships that extend beyond Hacktoberfest, too, so maybe the goal is not necessarily those four pull requests, but maybe it's four relationships that you can build during this month.
00:03:53.451 --> 00:03:54.641
Yeah, absolutely.
00:03:55.102 --> 00:04:01.012
You know, we, we talk a lot during Hacktoberfest about how to find, you know, how to find places to contribute.
00:04:01.081 --> 00:04:06.116
And we've talked about And there's, there's lots of resources for that.
00:04:06.187 --> 00:04:14.616
Um, I think one of the best ways to build relationships in open source is to become a, uh, repeat contributor to a project.
00:04:14.687 --> 00:04:18.807
Um, and there's value for that on both sides.
00:04:18.867 --> 00:04:22.177
You know, there's value just for, for you as a contributor.
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Um, if you get more and more familiar with the project, your work will be better and, you know, probably easier, or you'll be able to take on more challenging tasks.
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You know, projects or issues.
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Uh, and obviously if you are helpful and you keep coming back to help, um, you're the maintainers of the project will, will know you and trust you, uh, as well, which can have just tremendous benefits, uh, down the line and, and they can't always be predicted.
00:04:50.586 --> 00:04:56.202
We, it's not a transaction, you know, It's, you know, it's building trust capital, like we talked about.
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It's, uh, it's that sort of thing.
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Um, and expanding your network and, there's just so many benefits to this sort of, this sort of thing.
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I think it's, I honestly, I think it's one of the, like the, the, the, you know, I'm like, none of us like to talk about like building your network, you know, obviously, but the, it kind of comes for free here with, you know, with contributing, right?
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So if you think of it as, you know, if you hate networking, you know, you don't like, you're not good at it, all that sort of thing, which I'm not either.
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Um, the, but you like doing development stuff or any, any kind of open source work.
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Um, it's, it like comes for free.
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As long as you are like, you know, actually trying to be helpful and not trying to get something out of it and, uh, are respectful and all that stuff.
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Um, the network comes built in, uh, lots of times.
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Yeah, and I see, so years ago I used to listen to this podcast, um, and it was about screenwriting.
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And one of the pieces of advice that I've always carried with me is look at the person who's one step ahead of you.
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And so, in terms of like screenwriting, they're saying if you're trying to sell your screenplay, look at someone who's just done the thing that you're trying to do right now.
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Because it might not seem like the best person, maybe you want to talk to that movie executive or whatever, but that's not the person that you're going to connect with or build a relationship with.
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They're at a very different stage, their time is very limited, and so, but that person ahead of you.
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It's going to remember you if you build that relationship with them.
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And eventually they might be that new movie executive, or they might have some pull over what gets made.
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And I think the same thing that applies here.
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You know, we often have this feeling of like, well, I have a question.
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I need to connect with the maintainer.
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The maintainer is not answering my question.
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But in some ways, that's kind of like the movie executive role.
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Like, you bypass all the other people that are working on and supporting the project.
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Depending on the size of the project, and you went to the person at the top, but maybe, you know, one of these ways to build relationships and goodwill is to, you know, see, okay, this person has already done a contribution here, I'm going to talk to them, I'm going to go into the community, and I'm going to ask a general question, I'm not going to at the maintainer in the comments or in discussions or whatever, I'm going to Build relationships with people who are where I want to be next and I think that you can learn a lot in that way and it also will eventually build you goodwill with a maintainer.
00:07:20.406 --> 00:07:29.446
Yeah.
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not working, all that stuff, which can be very frustrating, you know, uh, there's lots of ways to go about, uh, you know, Helping, helping yourself, helping the, the project.
00:07:39.690 --> 00:07:49.490
And usually adding a maintainer is never one of them, you know, um, the maintainers are going to see everything they're subscribed to the repository.
00:07:49.521 --> 00:07:50.730
Like, trust me, you know what I mean?
00:07:50.750 --> 00:08:06.036
And so, um, when you add a maintainer, you know, it, it can, it'll limit maybe the amount of people that respond to you, you know, maybe some people might respond, Don't like think they should, because you are asking the maintainer, you know, um, that, that sort of thing.
00:08:06.065 --> 00:08:20.086
And it's also just a, you know, I mean, it's just kind of a sign of impatience or, uh, a little bit of lack of respect, even if you aren't being like, even if you aren't, uh, you know, your words aren't rude, right.
00:08:20.086 --> 00:08:22.105
I mean, like we can all like pick out like.
00:08:22.380 --> 00:08:36.921
Oh, this person is just like plainly being rude, you know, and you don't mean to be rude, but there are ways to like, do this sort of thing, like add a maintainer, even if your request is politely worded, you know, um, it's, it's like kind of pushy, right.
00:08:36.971 --> 00:08:37.831
Or something like that.
00:08:38.321 --> 00:08:48.030
And maintainers lots of times have enough on their plates to not want to, um, have to deal with people being like pushing themselves into their face, you know.
00:08:48.346 --> 00:08:57.875
Yeah, I, um, was listening to this podcast, The Secret Sauce, with, uh, the episode with Evan Yu, who's the creator of VIEW, and I think VEET, right?
00:08:59.870 --> 00:09:09.091
Anyway, he was talking about the importance of, like, how do you get to be, it was, like, maybe on the core team or something like that.
00:09:09.451 --> 00:09:23.400
And I think that, you know, this kind of, like, extends what we're talking about here, because one of the things that he said was there was this, uh, younger contributor who, um, first what he did was really understood the project.
00:09:23.451 --> 00:09:24.931
He understood the vision.
00:09:25.191 --> 00:09:26.791
of what he was contributing to.
00:09:26.990 --> 00:09:30.801
He understood the style of code that he was supposed to be submitting, right?
00:09:31.181 --> 00:09:43.225
And then he created pull requests that reflected that he had taken the time to understand the project and the requirements and he consistently submitted Quality pull requests.
00:09:43.796 --> 00:09:48.875
And so Evan noticed this and then, you know, this formed a relationship.
00:09:48.905 --> 00:10:14.071
So, you know, I think one of the things when we talk about relationship building we can think about is also you know, if you're doing all of the right things That can be noticed by other people who maybe you haven't had a conversation with or a maintainer that is out of your reach, but if you're consistently, um, submitting quality work, then that for sure will be noticed and that can help build the relationship and your credibility as well.
00:10:15.280 --> 00:10:15.510
Yeah.
00:10:15.660 --> 00:10:17.120
I mean, absolutely.
00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:25.307
That's the ways that you approach these sort of things, you know, I mean, I mean, this goes back to like being a good open source, you know, citizen, I suppose.
00:10:25.347 --> 00:10:31.168
Um, but it's all, you know, this is all, I know the benefits are all like tied up together, right?
00:10:31.197 --> 00:10:50.317
Like if you want your pull requests to be accepted, if you want your issue to be assigned, all of that stuff, um, you know, there's lots and lots of ways to, uh, help your chances of doing that, but it also, so like, which like will get your pull requests merged, you know, like there's, there's lots of ways to improve your chances of that happening.
00:10:50.357 --> 00:10:50.577
Right.
00:10:51.217 --> 00:10:51.817
And.
00:10:52.317 --> 00:11:23.163
It also improves your, your network and your, you know, it improves the relationship and, and especially like I said before, if you are, I mean, we've both said it a million times, but if you're a repeat contributor, um, and, It's just, it's honestly, as a person who is maintaining projects, whether it's open source or not, or work or anything, um, knowing that you can trust somebody else to work on this project that you've created, uh, is such a good feeling, you know, and it's so valuable.
00:11:23.347 --> 00:11:27.027
and becoming that person, I think is also a good feeling.
00:11:27.037 --> 00:11:40.501
I like being the person who, you know, Somebody can trust, you know, uh, a lot, you know, and, and so that's, it's why it's, it's, it is kind of nice to find some of these smaller projects maybe, or different projects and work your way up.
00:11:41.631 --> 00:11:45.392
So like going back to what you were talking about before of, of looking at the person like one step ahead of you.
00:11:45.851 --> 00:11:51.542
Another way to think about that is, um, finding smaller projects that aren't maybe as exciting.
00:11:51.542 --> 00:11:52.241
They're not flashy.
00:11:52.241 --> 00:11:57.129
Like it's not, I mean, put it on your resume if there's room, but like, it's not like, Oh, I contributed to.
00:11:57.453 --> 00:12:04.033
React, I contributed to this thing, you know, but there are millions and millions of packages out there or projects or open source, anything.
00:12:04.094 --> 00:12:09.413
And finding ones with smaller communities where you can kind of build a little bit of a network.
00:12:09.453 --> 00:12:12.644
Um, I think it's a really, really good way to do that too.
00:12:12.683 --> 00:12:17.024
And you never know, you never know what, what is going to happen, you know, down the line.
00:12:17.053 --> 00:12:28.173
But, uh, even if nothing else happens, you have maybe a friend and somebody who kind of know, you know, knows your name at least a little bit and also like a lot of experience and Et cetera.
00:12:28.193 --> 00:12:30.783
There's just like, it's just so many benefits at it.
00:12:30.783 --> 00:12:33.304
You know, it's, it's hard to, I don't know.
00:12:33.304 --> 00:12:37.158
It's hard to stop talking about the different ways that it is good.
00:12:37.883 --> 00:12:45.102
Yeah, I think, you know, another way that you can build a relationship is offering to help in ways that might not be obvious.
00:12:45.482 --> 00:12:51.212
So some of the obvious ways of helping are submitting pull requests of triaging issues.
00:12:51.673 --> 00:12:55.003
Um, that's kind of part of the regular flow of open source.
00:12:55.013 --> 00:13:01.597
So if you're new to open source, That might not be obvious to you, but that, that's something that you'll learn and you'll grow in.
00:13:01.597 --> 00:13:09.648
But other things that are less obvious might be, Hey, um, can I help as a code of conduct responder in your Discord?
00:13:10.018 --> 00:13:12.697
Or can I write a blog post for you?
00:13:12.768 --> 00:13:15.148
Or, you know, what help do you need?
00:13:15.148 --> 00:13:26.322
Like, asking the maintainers, because sometimes, you know, uh, there are people that sometimes need help writing a newsletter or raising money or raising awareness.
00:13:26.373 --> 00:13:33.023
So that can be another way to build, uh, trust capital to be a way to build those relationships.
00:13:33.493 --> 00:13:39.163
Um, and those are some things, those are things that you can continue to do beyond Hacktoberfest.
00:13:40.173 --> 00:13:45.942
Um, I would say like another way that I've seen recently to get involved in build those relationships.
00:13:46.393 --> 00:13:47.263
is through Reddit.
00:13:48.033 --> 00:13:55.793
And I, I don't recommend Reddit very often because anytime I post in Reddit, if it's not cat Reddit, then people just like sloy on me immediately.
00:13:55.793 --> 00:13:58.123
So beware, that's your warning.
00:13:58.893 --> 00:14:04.322
But there are a lot of people that like ask for help on their projects.
00:14:04.363 --> 00:14:12.727
And it's the kind of projects that you're just talking about, about Dan, like the small projects, like Hey, I have this project I'm really excited about, but I have no contributors.
00:14:12.738 --> 00:14:14.427
Like, how do I get contributors?
00:14:14.837 --> 00:14:22.967
And, you know, a lot of times I'll respond to them and be like, hey, maybe you should write some issues, or there's not a contributing guide, or something like that.
00:14:22.967 --> 00:14:33.837
But, um, sometimes that's where people are reaching out for help on their projects, and it's a more visible way than you would find on, like, in personal discords or whatever.
00:14:33.847 --> 00:14:33.998
Yeah.
00:14:33.998 --> 00:14:34.827
It's really interesting.
00:14:34.847 --> 00:14:37.038
Is there a specific subreddit
00:14:37.937 --> 00:14:38.327
Yes.
00:14:38.908 --> 00:14:40.187
that you would recommend
00:14:40.472 --> 00:14:46.293
I would say the open source subreddit is where I've seen it, um, and then maybe like slash github too.
00:14:46.677 --> 00:14:47.048
Okay.
00:14:47.668 --> 00:14:48.087
Nice.
00:14:48.457 --> 00:14:48.597
Yeah.
00:14:48.597 --> 00:14:48.878
Who knew?
00:14:50.398 --> 00:14:50.758
Not me.
00:14:51.552 --> 00:14:53.722
I learned, I learned about reddit this year, so.
00:14:54.087 --> 00:14:54.437
Nice.
00:14:54.467 --> 00:14:54.607
Yeah.
00:14:54.607 --> 00:14:54.947
All right.
00:14:55.018 --> 00:14:57.081
Um, that, no, that's really interesting.
00:14:57.201 --> 00:15:19.831
And like that kind of thing, cause I feel like the kinds of questions that people are asking or, you know, requests for help, like that kind of thing, it's hard to, I mean, maybe you could, maybe you would see it on Twitter or something, but it's, there's not like another place I can think of where it's all collected and it's not just one community, but you know, like lots of people, um, on one, on the, on that topic.
00:15:19.871 --> 00:15:26.076
And it's less like, You know, it's not just issues or whatever or some, or, or stack overflow where it's just like specific questions, you know.
00:15:26.807 --> 00:15:27.817
Um, that's really neat.
00:15:27.947 --> 00:15:29.226
That's a good, I like that.
00:15:29.917 --> 00:15:39.817
Yeah, the other thing about the, you know, again, those small projects and answering a request like that, you often have one on one time with a maintainer, uh, that you wouldn't get with those large projects.
00:15:39.947 --> 00:16:03.241
But, um, You know, I think that this is all, like, valuable experience, and kind of on the other side of things, so we're kind of looking at it from the contributor's perspective, but I think there's a lot of folks out there who are in a maintainer role, or who are in a, an experienced or senior plus role, whatever, that are also looking to, like, provide support for people and to build those relationships.
00:16:03.241 --> 00:16:07.701
And so, um, you might see, like, there's someone willing to spend some time with you.
00:16:08.251 --> 00:16:15.381
But I think, like, maybe we talked in episode three, I think, about big M mentorship versus small M mentorship.
00:16:15.761 --> 00:16:19.741
What do you think are some good ways, uh, to mentor someone during Hacktoberfest?
00:16:21.336 --> 00:16:25.096
Um, so I guess, let me clarify your question.
00:16:25.187 --> 00:16:33.287
Do you mean just a person like we do in Virtual Coffee, or do you mean as a maintainer and a, and you're talking about a potential contributor,
00:16:34.361 --> 00:16:37.412
Oh, that's a good I hadn't thought about the latter, but let's go with that.
00:16:37.731 --> 00:16:41.322
Uh, yeah, because, because that's like, because that's an experience that I've run into a few times.
00:16:41.351 --> 00:16:45.631
And I, you know, a lot of it is tied into Virtual Coffee as well.
00:16:45.942 --> 00:16:50.172
Um, so I, I do kind of know the person already, but it's like first time contributors, that kind of thing.
00:16:50.172 --> 00:16:50.371
Right.
00:16:50.831 --> 00:16:53.682
And so there are a lot of things that you can do, I think, to.
00:16:54.267 --> 00:16:58.787
to help people through that without creating a ton of work on your side, right?
00:16:58.787 --> 00:17:03.547
Cause maintainers, you know, like we don't want to, some things are worth spending time on, you know what I mean?
00:17:03.567 --> 00:17:18.104
But it's, if you can streamline it different ways, you know, and so, uh, a very good readme, I think is, you know, top of the line, also like a contributing guide and they don't have to be Like, especially if you're on a small project, right?
00:17:18.144 --> 00:17:26.054
I don't think I wouldn't say contributing guide is a must for people with smaller projects where they don't expect like lots and lots of contributions.
00:17:26.054 --> 00:17:28.213
I think I would put all that in just in the readme, right?
00:17:28.213 --> 00:17:30.413
You can just have a section in the readme about it.
00:17:31.509 --> 00:17:33.348
Here's what I expect or something like that.
00:17:33.719 --> 00:17:45.999
But laying all that stuff down, um, is, is important and will save you time in the future and also is a point where you can, if you get somebody who is trying to help, but they don't know how, right.
00:17:45.999 --> 00:17:48.469
Would it, so there's like people that have come in that.
00:17:49.469 --> 00:17:52.348
know better or should know better, but don't read the readme.
00:17:52.348 --> 00:17:56.788
Don't read the contributing guide or just like blasting issues or comments or whatever, pull requests.
00:17:56.848 --> 00:18:03.134
Um, you know, those people, you, you can politely, but kind of firmly say, Hey, please like do this this way or whatever.
00:18:03.154 --> 00:18:15.015
But there are, you run into people, especially like around Hacktoberfest where there's lots of first time contributors, um, where they are trying and they don't, they just like are stuck or they don't, they don't know what the best thing to do is that kind of thing.
00:18:16.460 --> 00:18:25.416
That feel, okay for people to like not know how, um, is I think really, really valuable and making it a safe space for somebody to learn.
00:18:25.426 --> 00:18:36.394
And so I think there's, there's ways that you can make your project or your community or anything like that a safe space for people like that as well.
00:18:36.804 --> 00:18:40.324
And, you know, part of that goes back to having a good readme.
00:18:40.364 --> 00:18:54.598
And instead of being like, To read the docs, you know, like, Hey, like, you know, you can answer a question, like, in a more respectful way and say, you know, okay, well, like, I would try it this way.
00:18:54.598 --> 00:18:56.368
Here's like, here's the read me section.
00:18:56.378 --> 00:18:57.318
You know, this is what I try.
00:18:57.699 --> 00:19:00.479
And let me know if that doesn't work, because it is possible you read me as wrong too.
00:19:01.338 --> 00:19:01.588
Right?
00:19:01.638 --> 00:19:04.038
Um, I've run into that with, uh, Yeah.
00:19:04.038 --> 00:19:04.088
Yeah.
00:19:04.378 --> 00:19:14.578
With IU, um, who we talk about all the time here, um, and is amazing, but she is on a, not but, but she is on a Windows computer and I hadn't tried any of our stuff on Windows.
00:19:14.659 --> 00:19:18.288
And that's not like Windows computers are fine and valid, you know what I mean?
00:19:18.308 --> 00:19:20.419
And it was just like this thing that didn't work on Windows.
00:19:20.469 --> 00:19:27.608
And, um, and so it was, you know, I think the readme was incorrect, right, for her.
00:19:27.669 --> 00:19:37.618
And, But we took a while because it was like, she was starting out, this was like years ago, but she was like starting out and we weren't sure, you know, where the problem was, all that stuff.
00:19:37.679 --> 00:19:56.544
Uh, and so it turned out like she learned some stuff and also I corrected the readme or well, she helped, we corrected the readme together, you know, but like the, Um, you know, being willing to, uh, to help people a little bit is, I think goes a long way towards that sort of thing, you know?
00:19:56.943 --> 00:20:02.594
Um, and it can get hard and it's hard to do if somebody files a pull request, right?
00:20:02.653 --> 00:20:06.443
That, you know, they followed all the directions, but you like, don't like it, right?
00:20:06.703 --> 00:20:08.784
That's one, that's a situation I've run into a bunch.
00:20:09.023 --> 00:20:10.023
Uh, have you run into that?
00:20:10.521 --> 00:20:16.416
Like where, they satisfy the requirements of the issue and you just don't quite like how they did it.
00:20:16.467 --> 00:20:16.797
Right.
00:20:17.326 --> 00:20:17.636
Right.
00:20:17.717 --> 00:20:18.586
Yeah, that's tough.
00:20:19.076 --> 00:21:00.531
I mean, because I, I do a lot of documentation maintenance, for me, that it, I have actually run into that quite a bit, um, because there's, it's, we don't have a style guide, um, it's something that can be kind of hard to communicate to other people and to say, like, okay, here's This is how we need to revise it and and to be honest with you This is maybe not like the best way to approach it But sometimes I've just gone through and revised it myself and then merged it in so I mean they still get credit for the pull Requests and sometimes I'll mention like hey, you know, I just needed to make some quick updates before this went in Um, or, hey, we were under a time crunch, so I went ahead and made these updates.
00:21:00.561 --> 00:21:04.922
This is why, if you want to meet one on one to chat about it, then let me know.
00:21:04.932 --> 00:21:20.761
But, yeah, I've definitely run into that, and that does get really tricky to be able to communicate that, especially in an asynchronous environment, to try and explain, like, nuances of things, and the approach can be, um, a hard conversation to have and communicate.
00:21:20.926 --> 00:21:21.267
Yeah.
00:21:21.747 --> 00:21:22.057
Yeah.
00:21:22.057 --> 00:21:22.656
It's tough.
00:21:22.656 --> 00:21:23.866
You mentioned having a style guide.
00:21:23.896 --> 00:21:32.247
I think that's, this goes back to anything that you can get down in writing that you can point to, you know, um, will help the initial stuff.
00:21:32.267 --> 00:21:34.267
And it also helped this sort of situation.
00:21:34.277 --> 00:21:35.257
It's the same with programming.
00:21:35.257 --> 00:21:40.247
I mean, like having a style guide for code is, or can be really important as well.
00:21:40.277 --> 00:21:40.507
Right.
00:21:40.547 --> 00:21:50.872
And that doesn't necessarily, like always It's not always like, oh, your indents and your commas and your semicolons and that kind of thing, because nowadays that can be handled, um, programmatically, right?
00:21:50.922 --> 00:22:05.491
Lots of times, but there are like more like high level style things where if you have some opinions, you know, um, If you can get them down, I think can be really, uh, really valuable.
00:22:05.622 --> 00:22:14.122
And it's not, there's not, you're never going to cover everything, especially with the writing, you know, but, um, like you said, but trying to, there's like different ways to handle it.
00:22:14.162 --> 00:22:15.061
I've done the same thing.
00:22:15.122 --> 00:22:25.731
Um, as, as, as you were, I've just like made the changes, um, and merged it, you know, and I've also tried to work through like, okay, here's why, you know.
00:22:27.156 --> 00:22:27.717
It can be hard.
00:22:27.787 --> 00:22:28.666
Sometimes it's hard.
00:22:28.686 --> 00:22:29.507
It's a hard balance.
00:22:30.267 --> 00:22:31.936
Uh, I want people to learn, right?
00:22:31.987 --> 00:22:45.876
And so it's like, okay, do I, it will take me longer, me personally, longer to A of all write this out and then suggest the changes and then, you know, hope, hope that they're, Like review it again, you know what I mean?
00:22:46.646 --> 00:22:55.497
Um, but if I can do it in a way that they'll actually learn, and it's not just like, change this to this, change this to this, you know what I mean?
00:22:55.567 --> 00:22:57.096
Um, cause I don't think that's valuable.
00:22:57.186 --> 00:23:07.317
Like I, I, if I, if I, if that's all I can come up with personally, then I'll just like, kind of do it, you know, but if I can somehow get into words.
00:23:07.682 --> 00:23:24.511
What I mean by this stuff, like why, you know, um, then I'll either try to make the request and do it, or I will make those changes and write it out as like, this is why I did this, you know, and here's the example of what I mean, you know what I mean?
00:23:24.551 --> 00:23:37.096
Uh, and lots of times to do that, I have to just make the change myself anyway, you know, Have you ever made a change yourself just to do this sort of thing and then thrown it out and asked them to do it?
00:23:37.936 --> 00:23:40.336
No, I've not knocked on down that rabbit hole
00:23:40.396 --> 00:23:40.797
yeah.
00:23:40.967 --> 00:23:41.537
I've done that.
00:23:41.767 --> 00:23:47.467
Cause I needed, like, I basically, for me, I need to see it to like really, um, describe why or whatever, you know?
00:23:47.557 --> 00:24:04.936
I need to like And also sometimes to check that I'm right, or, you know, that like, what I'm thinking of is actually what I'm thinking, you know, um, but I've gone down that road where it's all done and then I discard the commit and, and ask for the, you know what I mean?
00:24:04.946 --> 00:24:08.707
Maybe take a screenshot or something or grab some code, but, um, it's a weird feeling.
00:24:08.707 --> 00:24:08.997
Yeah.
00:24:09.067 --> 00:24:10.586
Uh, and it's, you know.
00:24:11.321 --> 00:24:11.592
I don't know.
00:24:11.612 --> 00:24:16.332
It's, it's all, you know, and I don't think that, um, being a maintainer means you have to like teach people all the time.
00:24:17.031 --> 00:24:20.362
Um, you know, like, I don't, we have that in Virtual Coffee.
00:24:20.362 --> 00:24:21.622
We, we value that.
00:24:21.652 --> 00:24:22.682
And like, it's one of our goals.
00:24:22.682 --> 00:24:22.862
Right.
00:24:22.862 --> 00:24:30.751
But the, I don't think it's any, I don't think it's every main open source maintainer's responsibility to teach people everything.
00:24:30.801 --> 00:24:31.071
Right.
00:24:31.071 --> 00:24:41.207
But there are ways that you can help people, um, without, Spending like the, without doing the kind of stuff I'm talking about, you know, where you're, where you're like, where you're doing that.
00:24:41.237 --> 00:24:51.277
Um, cause that's much more of like a, uh, you know, I, I feel the responsibility to try to help, um, but I don't know that I don't think that's an inherent responsibility for open source maintainers.
00:24:51.446 --> 00:25:03.773
Um, I do think being a little bit patient and being, you know, kind of respectful and the more, like I said, the more you can get down in docs or guides or whatever, uh, the easier that will be both as ways to.
00:25:04.116 --> 00:25:14.847
Catch things before they happen and also as ways to point to, you know, you don't have to feel bad if something's written down and they, and it's like, you know, the, in a pull request is not, followed.
00:25:15.127 --> 00:25:15.738
I don't feel bad.
00:25:15.758 --> 00:25:16.327
You know what I mean?
00:25:16.528 --> 00:25:20.867
Like, uh, about saying, no, you know, you gotta, you gotta change this because here's why, right?
00:25:21.278 --> 00:25:27.337
Um, when I have to come up with the reason why it, and sometimes it's, you know, you get a little bit more
00:25:27.897 --> 00:25:28.218
Yeah.
00:25:28.688 --> 00:25:29.847
internal back and forth anyway.
00:25:30.432 --> 00:25:38.402
Yeah, I think, you know, along the same lines, another good way to build relationships in open source is attending, uh, open office hours.
00:25:38.932 --> 00:25:48.021
And not every project offers these, but like, I know we used to at OpenSauce, like, offer contributors office hours.
00:25:48.031 --> 00:26:15.071
So if they were working on an issue and they were stuck or they had questions, then they knew, like, Thursdays at noon or whatever it was they could come in and they can ask those questions or they can get more context on the project and Um, I know that there are a lot of places that do that I think one of the maintainers of nuxt actually Has a calendly with 10 minute slots that people could book whenever they want Um, and I thought well, that's like that's awesome.
00:26:15.082 --> 00:26:19.906
Like he does a great job of being um, a really supportive maintainer.
00:26:19.916 --> 00:26:22.267
Not everybody has the time to be able to do that.
00:26:22.277 --> 00:26:26.707
It's not necessary, but I think that, like, look for those opportunities, too.
00:26:26.856 --> 00:26:40.386
You know, often they're in the Read Me or the Contributing Guide, or if the, the project has a community page, then it'll share that information there, or they'll share, like, Hey, we're doing this event.
00:26:40.686 --> 00:26:42.037
Like, show up for the event.
00:26:42.636 --> 00:26:52.846
And then I, like, I know I did Twitter spaces pretty much every week for a year for work, and, um, I noticed who came every time, you know?
00:26:53.067 --> 00:27:09.997
And I also was more willing to, like, support that person or help them out, and, because I knew, like, okay, they're interested in learning and growing, and so we've established this relationship, even though we haven't had, like, really a conversation, um, face to face about that thing.
00:27:10.007 --> 00:27:12.926
Like, there's a lot of asynchronous interactions that went with that.
00:27:12.936 --> 00:27:22.557
So, like, also don't underestimate, like, the value of telling someone thank you or leaving a comment on the blog post that they wrote to say, like, Hey, I really appreciated this.
00:27:22.636 --> 00:27:25.636
It helped me to implement this thing in my project.
00:27:25.676 --> 00:27:32.997
Like, those are all ways to kind of, like, build those relationships with the people in open source and go beyond Hacktoberfest.
00:27:33.321 --> 00:27:45.497
Yeah.
00:27:45.497 --> 00:27:57.672
Yeah,
00:27:57.872 --> 00:28:00.951
if somebody is stuck and they just, can't get unstuck.
00:28:01.082 --> 00:28:04.701
They might just, you know, whatever, go to a different project.
00:28:04.701 --> 00:28:04.922
Right.
00:28:04.951 --> 00:28:16.071
But if, if you can provide 10 minutes of support and help them through their thing and say, Hey, you know, let them know that they're valuable to, you know, they might keep coming back and you might end up with a co maintainer even.
00:28:16.372 --> 00:28:16.751
Right.
00:28:17.501 --> 00:28:22.116
Uh, so I think I loved all this, all of those All the things that people do.
00:28:22.126 --> 00:28:22.946
It's, it's great.
00:28:22.967 --> 00:28:25.596
Um, I wish I had time to do like all of them.
00:28:25.636 --> 00:28:26.257
You know what I mean?
00:28:26.307 --> 00:28:33.977
Um, both attend, attend everybody else's things and also like provide all this stuff for myself, you know, and also, um, not get fired at my job.
00:28:33.977 --> 00:28:44.136
So, you know, it's, it's tough balance, but, um, uh, you know, I, I think there's lots of great ways, um, to build those kinds of like relationships in, in open source.
00:28:44.967 --> 00:28:45.727
Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:45.787 --> 00:28:50.636
And I think, you know, it comes down to communicating with other people and continuing to build those connections.
00:28:50.646 --> 00:28:58.846
So, enriching those relationships, understanding the other person and their needs, and, and all of this goes just to the human person.
00:28:58.846 --> 00:29:00.777
Like, we want connections with people.
00:29:00.957 --> 00:29:05.356
It just happens to be that open source is a pretty good path this month.
00:29:05.686 --> 00:29:06.317
Yes.
00:29:06.747 --> 00:29:08.727
I'd say every month, but especially this month.
00:29:10.541 --> 00:29:13.821
Alright, well, we hope that you enjoyed this episode.
00:29:13.821 --> 00:29:17.862
We will be back again next week, and we'll see you soon.
00:29:18.537 --> 00:29:18.866
All right.
00:29:18.866 --> 00:29:19.767
Thanks everyone.
00:29:21.789 --> 00:29:25.220
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast.
00:29:26.690 --> 00:29:35.619
This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel, if you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter@VirtualCoffeeIO or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io.
00:29:36.170 --> 00:29:42.460
You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, buy some VC merch, and check out all of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io.
00:29:42.890 --> 00:29:48.715
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00:29:49.076 --> 00:29:51.895
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00:29:52.286 --> 00:29:54.355
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