Stop Guessing Start Testing

WEBVTT
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Just makes sense.
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Like if you don't test, you don't know.
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And data's the only thing that you can really hang your hat on.
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Your opinion is doesn't mean crap.
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Welcome to the Flow Lab, the podcast where we dive deep into the science of building performance and HBAC innovation.
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Today we bring you another insightful episode of how to enhance your knowledge and expertise in the field.
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Joining us are your co-hosts, Ben Walker, co-CEO of RetroTech, and Sam Myers, a renowned building science specialist and retrotech trainer.
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Together, they bring a wealth of experience and knowledge to ensure our discussions are both informative and engaging.
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So sit back, relax, and get ready to enter the flow lab where we'll explore the world of building performance.
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Let's get started.
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Yeah, so Jake, you and I have known each other for a while now.
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I think I remember when you really first started diving down the rabbit hole of airtightness testing and incorporating that into your projects.
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And I think one thing that you're really known for is pushing uh builders to test multiple times throughout the build, using the blower door as a quality assurance tool, uh, making sure that you have that air tightness number that you want from the beginning and make sure it sticks there at the end as well.
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So one thing that I would I'm curious about is, you know, from a client's perspective, when you're talking to homeowners about this, do is it something that they ask for?
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Did they ever come across it on the internet and ask for it, or is it something that you're constantly having to educate them on?
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Yeah, I would uh I would say that when we first got started, it was entirely just us pushing.
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And now in the last three or four years, we get a lot of uh potential clients, even if they didn't know that we put stuff online beforehand, by the time we have our second or third conversation, they've consumed some of our uh online content, and therefore now they're a lot more informed as to why a leaky house would be a bad thing, uh, or uncontrolled leaks, uh unforeseen leaks would be uh a challenge to health and comfort.
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It's also something I preach to them about in our initial meetings because we talk a lot about health and comfort.
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And so we now are getting clients that are like, so when do we when do we do our first blower door test?
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Um we have a client that attended a blower door test recently.
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Like he was super interested, super motivated to see what we had done.
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Uh thank goodness it was great numbers so that we didn't look like idiots after we preached about it for so long.
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So that would have been a real embarrassment if he showed up and we were like, okay, there's a 10-inch hole somewhere in this building.
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We have to find it.
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So it's it's flipped for us.
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Um and I I think that's a great thing because that means that the clients are doing their research, they're finding all of our online content.
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It's the other reason that I push people to put content online about how you're the expert, because you should know more about the process than the person you're building the house for.
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They don't do this every day.
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So as long as you look like you know more than they do, that's a good thing for your business.
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Yeah, that makes total sense.
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Um, so when so that client that came out, was that the first blower door test?
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That was uh that was actually the final blower door test, and we knew pretty close what the number was going to be like.
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So it was three of three.
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Uh, and that house, I believe, tested it just under 0.5 ACH 50.
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So you test three times throughout the we do.
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Yeah.
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Um what at what points do you do you do that?
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Yeah, so it's it's not that we want to charge for a blower door test three times because we we don't necessarily charge them for it.
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Most of the time it's project manager and myself fiddling and trying to figure out what's wrong with the building.
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Um, but we test before it's too late when you start covering things up.
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So as soon as we can test the envelope, that's the first time we test it.
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So most of the time that's pre-insulation.
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Um and then depending on how complicated the house is, uh, post-insulation or post-drywall, just to make sure that we didn't screw something up and miss it.
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And then we generally test um, if it's a municipality that doesn't do blower door testing, we test on our way out the door.
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If it's one that does uh requires us to have third-party verification, we test the day before they come just so that we know what the number is before they get there.
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Um, just to verify, still, you're you're constantly poking new holes in the building, even if you don't want to be.
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And so we may as well verify uh that we haven't screwed it up.
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I think um, and I misquote it, I'm sure I'm misquoting it, but Coda Weno from Building Science Corp says, like, your opinion without any data is nothing but your opinion.
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And that means it means nothing.
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So if you don't have the data to say, well, we know that we have, you know, 300 CFM worth of leakage on this building, but that's it, and that gets us to a really great number, then then we know we built the tighthouse.
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Otherwise, we just went, well, these things have worked before.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, but some of like the common problem areas that you discover along the way.
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Uh I would say that we are very lucky that since 2017 when we started blower door testing, we haven't had one not meet our expectations.
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So we we write our scope of work for one ACH 50 or below.
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And we haven't had a single house not be uh below that one ACH 50 mark.
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And so our our common problems aren't, you know, common problems that maybe other people see.
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Our common problems are total, like we forgot to seal that one thing that we did at the last minute before we were about to close up the envelope.
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It's not, oh, it's always dryer vents are leaky or ERV is leaky or the front door is leaky.
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It's oh crap, we had one thing that we that's on the list still and you didn't do it.
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Uh I would say the the biggest thing that I find quite amusing, uh, because I was looking at notes from a couple blower door tests.
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The biggest thing that we screw up when it comes to the blower door tests is forgetting to fill drains because nobody lives there.
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So like all of a sudden you're like, oh, you have a floor drain, that's that's the problem, which is not really a problem in the grand scheme of things, right?
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Like it's gonna get taken care of.
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Um but I will tell you that uh one of the really interesting things that we found a year ago was one of our project managers and I were talking about um the the ability to just use seal sealer as our uh air control layer between our plate and our concrete, so doing nothing to the face.
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And he said, How about we finish the entire envelope, we get it to our second blower door test, and then we taped that.
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So we had drywall in this house.
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We did a blower door test, and we were at you know 0.9 ACH 50.
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It's a 1100, 1200 square foot house, really small house.
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And uh he went around and taped the uh outside, and we ran another blower door test like four hours later, and it reduced 30% of our leakage, like it cut 30% off of that.
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And I was like, there you go, that's not working, it's not helping, and then we have to we have to do something different than seal sealer there because it's simply not enough.
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Uh, and so it was really informative to to play and be like, okay, well what if what if we leave this unsealed?
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What if we leave this unsealed?
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What do we get there?
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Um I I think that's that was like our our biggest epiphany moment in the last couple years is like how substantial that leakage is.
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Yeah, that's uh a lot of times I'll see like living in the southeast, we have a lot of vented attics, um, and I'll see builders use uh seal seal on the top plates.
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Um they'll tack it up around the top plates, and you know, I've tested them before with smoke, like they leak, but it's better than nothing.
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So I mean I I get it, like it's it's easy.
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You don't have to worry about you can put it up days before you don't have to worry about it drying out, but it's not it's not the best.
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Yeah.
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So yeah.
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Yeah, that's that's interesting.
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Um yeah, 30% is huge.
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Yeah, and you know, under a blower door test, the whole building operates under equal pressure, like it's pressurizing the the entire envelope equally.
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So 30% is 30% of all the total possibilities.
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But in the real world, when we're not pressurizing the building, that's our lowest infiltration point.
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So that's going to be one of our highest points of pressure because that and the ceiling on the second floor are the two, you know, furthest from each other, experiencing the greatest pressure differential.
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So like 30% on our blur door tests is potentially less than what it would be in the real world because if we had leaks at windows or if we had something at waist height or chest height in the building, that's experiencing less pressure under normal operation.
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Yeah, it's a good thing.
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So it could be more than 30.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, for sure.
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So how do you do the top of the building?
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Do you encapsulate uh the attics?
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Do you ever deal with vented attics?
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Have you thrown that away entirely?
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Yeah, we uh we're really lucky that it's not too terribly difficult to dig where we live.
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So we do have a lot of basements.
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Yeah.
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Um, and I don't it's we're just not a uh conditioned attic market in both Columbia, our home office and Kansas City, our second office.
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Neither one is a conditioned attic thing.
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So we get to do super simple vented attics, we get to just air seal on our lid most of the time.
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Uh a lot of what we do are are truss uh assemblies.
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So what we'll do is we'll have our our trusses engineered so we don't have to build interior partitions, uh which, you know, we build barns that have 80-foot wide clear spans, things like that.
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Uh, and then we put the trusses four feet apart when we do that or eight feet apart.
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So uh it's not a big bump on our uh truss budget.
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Um most of the time they really don't even care, it's the same price.
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So we'll frame exterior walls, the envelope, and then uh we'll turn a piece of uh three-quarter sheathing or uh Sega's MyRex, which is one of their like flexible flexible smart control, smart vapor control membranes, from our zip sheathing on the exterior wall over the top plate, set trusses, and then we'll either use myRex or uh zip system on the ceiling.
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We actually have two projects going right now that are just full zip ceilings, full zip lids.
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Um, and then everything inside that is inside the envelope, and all of the truss space is outside the envelope.
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It's just a little simpler to do it that way for our market.
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If we had people claiming that they wanted to use that space, they wanted to be up there, uh, we can do a sealed attic, and then we might ex, you know, we might explore the idea of doing um monopoly framing, um, which if you've ever looked at a monopoly house, like an actual house from the game, it has overhangs on it beforehand.
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It's not it's not that simple Pentagon shape that kids draw in kindergarten.
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Uh so I always I hate that term.
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I know that that term is from the 90s, but whatever.
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Whoever did that doesn't know how to play Monopoly.
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I'm gonna have to go look now.
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Yeah.
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As soon as I heard uh Reisinger say it the first time, I was standing next to him the first time I heard him say it, and I said, You do realize Monopoly houses have uh overhangs on them.
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He was like, Well, not on the front and the back.
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If we run an appropriate angle like that.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Uh so we could easily do that assembly.
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We easily could also just um connect to um uh our our spray foam in the attic and use that as an air control membrane if we had to.
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Uh we probably wouldn't.
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We probably would go the Myrex up and over uh through our frame.
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Um but it gets more complicated.
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And like it or not, especially in a basement market, we don't want to put stuff up there that people have to service.
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We don't want to put people, you know, the majority of our clients are building the last house they're gonna live in.
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Even when they're young.
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We have some clients right now that are 15 years younger than me that are about to build their final house.
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And uh, I don't know how you could plan that far ahead.
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I don't know where I'm gonna be in six years, but you don't want to be 80 years old and carrying stuff to this the only storage space that we've been built in in the attic.
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Maybe that's not that different than doing it in the basement, but a lot of our basements are walkouts where you could drive around back or you could walk it down a long hill rather than steep stairs carrying stuff, like it's a different thing.
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Uh and so we're we have the luxury of not uh not conditioning that extra space either.
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So yeah, I really like your plan for uh addressing the top.
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Um, because that's usually where a lot of builders get hung up when they're trying to get a low number, just because if you're just using the the drywall and the ceiling as your air barrier, then it's just riddled with holes and it's really hard to go back and fix it.
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Yeah, especially if you've ran plates first, too.
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Um I had I had a YouTube comment in the last couple weeks.
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Uh somebody was like, Well, look, you're the way you're proposing doing this with the MyRex and then strapping it with two by four is like that's super wasteful.
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Don't you know that you can just do drywall and latex paint?
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Well, let's let's back up a minute.
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The latex paint is not a required part for it to be an air control membrane.
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Like, so if you're gonna make that argument, which is the way I did it at my personal house, was drywall and ceiling.
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Let's just say drywall because when you start adding in other layers, it gets confusing to people.
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And then I got a comment back about how uh the latex paint is now your moisture barrier.
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And I was like, I'm not sure if you understand how latex paint works.
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Uh and I'm building vented attics.
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I don't care if that's uh vapor open, you know.
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Yeah.
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And what do you think like the homeowners that are educated on blow door tests and stuff like are they just like you feel like just looking on your website and stuff, or like how do you think they're finding out about it these days?
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I feel like uh if we have clients that are educated about air leakage, it's three places.
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And it's because they've been looking at our content, because they've been looking at Steve Basic content, or they've been looking at Matt Reisinger content.
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Uh and I don't know if that's just because the three of us are larger voices on the Build Show Network, which I don't know anybody else's numbers, so I don't know.
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Um but the that's where it comes from a lot.
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And it's easy to find after I've shared my content with you and said, like, hey, if you want to learn about how we build houses, you should check out our YouTube channel or Build Show Network or my Instagram.
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And I provide people links because I want them to go look because all I do is talk about what I believe is the right way to build a house in our market.
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And so it's very easy from our stuff to stumble upon Steve because he's in a lot of the videos.
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And then if you're aware of Steve and I at that point, your algorithm's eventually gonna send you to Matt, I assume.
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So it's nice that when people get information from the three of us, it generally is correct, and I don't have to debunk it because there are certainly other sources online that have good reputations where I'd be like, it doesn't exactly work like that.
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They're kind of misguided on how they said that, or I wouldn't have said it that way.
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Uh, I will tell you the uh I was with Stephanie Daly all last week.
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Um Stephanie builds it on Instagram at IBS.
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We walked around uh, I think all three days together, and uh she was telling me that uh she has a couple clients that have come to her from Build Show Network stuff, and they also watch other people's stuff, and she was like, Yeah, she brought me something from you, and I wanted to be like, Yeah, but it snows a lot here, and we're a heating climate, and it's a different thing, and we don't do it that way.
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So I get that sometimes too, is I get the well, yeah, but that's in Texas, and in Texas they don't have a basement, and that's why they have to do that with the attic, and here's different climate challenges, yeah.
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And so regionality can be a problem when people find stuff online too.
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Yeah, that's like uh you know, where we are, we don't have basements.
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You know, we're we're right on the coast, so we're our water table's super shallow.
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So we just don't have a good place to put mechanical systems.
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It either goes in a vented crawl or a vented attic.
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And I think a lot of home builders here just get frustrated with trying to do like they try to dig through the rabbit hole of home performance and then try to figure out with mechanicals, they're just they just throw their shoulders up a lot because like where do we put this stuff?
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And it's a lot of the times for us, it's just you gotta encapsulate the attic.
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That's really the only space that you have to put things, so or we have thing for us.
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We have one going right now that is uh slab on grade uh in Kansas City, and um Isaac, the project manager, sat down, went to the truss manufacturer and sat down with their engineer, went through all the drawings, and we have plenums in every single truss to get where we need to go.
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Uh we have one trunk plenum that that uh is perpendicular to the trusses, so it's a bump up in the trusses, an upward notch, if you would.
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Uh, and then when you're trying to go parallel with the trusses, you just go between them.
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And we just push our air control layer up.
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That's why this one happens to be zip, is because there's so many plenums it was going to be a lot of hard work anyway, and it didn't make sense to use MyRacks like we normally do and zip.
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And so, like we have these what look like really odd cutouts that feed over top of all of our interior partition top plates, but we can get mechanicals from one end of the house to the other.
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Uh, we can get dehume lines in those same things.
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Uh, the challenge is you have to know that you're gonna do that beforehand, which means it needs to be incorporated in the design.
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On this one, uh, we were having a hard time making it work, and and Isaac was like, Yeah, the the truss designer, she's telling me that if we make it wider than this section, then we're not gonna have enough insulation R value left above it because of this flat porch roof detail or this low slope porch roof detail.
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And he said, So, what I told her was let's make this one the minimum size it needs to be, and then we'll shift the next one over two inches and it'll grow a little, and then we'll shift the next one over.
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So, yeah, we ordered 15 different trusses when they should have been one common truss.
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And the the truss guys, the guys that are actually nailing it together are frustrated.
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But now we have a plenum that spreads out once the ducks go through a chuck choke point, and we have the the ample ability to feed conditioned air on the bottom side of our air control layer and on the bottom side of our insulation layer, so they're inside, you just can't see them.
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Nice.
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Oh, that's really cool.
00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:43.440
Tons of planning, though.
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:51.039
Like yeah, Isaac has four days of figuring this out with the trust manufacturer and with the architect and and with our mechanical engineer.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:19:00.000
Yeah, so speaking of mechanicals, I know another challenge where you know builders are trying to do things right, you gotta you gotta get subs that are kind of on board with you.
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:15.279
And I think one of the most challenging ones is HVAC because you know, once you have a good design for your house, you know how airtight you want it to be, your it's super important that your mechanical systems match, uh, that you don't oversize heat pumps and things like that.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:27.519
Um for you know, for a builder that might be starting out kind of going down this road, trying to build more high performance homes, what kind of questions would you ask an HVAC contractor to try to vet a good one?
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:31.119
First and foremost, have you done any low load homes before?
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:45.039
Have you actually done a home where a 6,000 BTU uh mini-split, duckless mini split, is gonna be plumbed into a room and it's gonna need to cycle down to whatever they can go to, 2,000 BTUs.
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.160
Uh like, have you done any homes like that before?
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:50.720
Have you dealt with uh an ERV?
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:53.359
Have you dealt with uh dehumes?
00:19:53.519 --> 00:20:10.079
Uh in my market, we're you know, mixed humid, we're not particularly humid, but the dehumidifier does a ton for comfort when we're talking about low load homes because our HVAC is our sorry, our H and A C it's not going to dehumidify.
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.720
Uh, you know, and so the first question is, have you done this before?
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:21.200
And I realize that every person I've ever hired has done everything when they interview for the job.
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:22.079
Of course not.
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.079
Nobody's willing to say, I don't know what cabinets are, you know.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:32.000
Um the next one is are you willing to work with uh a mechanical engineer?
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:57.200
Because there are so many of them that want to specify the equipment and terminations and do the manual J themselves, and that always is a problem in my market at least, because we have so few uh installers that are so you that they're so used to putting mechanical systems in people that we're not even competing with homes in spec homes that are leaky, that are poorly built.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:06.000
You know, the Kansas City market still has a ton of homes being built with two by four walls and tie back directly to the studs and then T111 siding on the outside of it.
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:15.359
I'm sorry, but that is a different level of energy efficiency than a two by six wall with Zip R9 and.6 ACH50 air leakage.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:20.559
Uh, and so if you're doing those homes every day, this thing's gonna be a pain in the butt for you.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:22.240
And are you gonna deal with it?
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.680
Uh, and you're not gonna be qualified to do the manual J.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:27.039
So I should back up.
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.240
We work with two mechanical engineers most of the time.
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.839
Uh, one is Allison Bales, Energy Vanguard in Atlanta.
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:36.960
It doesn't it doesn't get any better than these guys.
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.640
Yeah, uh, they know low load homes amazingly well.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.720
And then the second one is Ross Trathui with TE2 Engineering.
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:50.480
Like, we're talking about one of the best mechanical engineering firms on the planet, potentially.
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:59.599
Uh if you are going to disagree with the plans that we get from Allison or from Ross, chances are you number one, don't know what you're doing.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.920
And number two, you're gonna be a pain in my ass proper saying it.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:04.880
Sorry for the language.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.000
But like we don't want that.
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.839
We want a team member with buy-in.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:19.200
Um, I always talk about like when I'm talking to the carpenters or the subs on our team, I explain why we're doing something, not what we're doing.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:22.799
Because if you understand the why, I should be able to get buy-in.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:31.519
And the first thing that happens when we give a mechanical design to a contractor that doesn't want to do it is, oh, you we're not gonna get buy-in from you.
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.759
You're probably off the list then.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:34.559
Yeah.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:36.799
Um, it's tough.
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:47.440
And I mean, I remember the first time that I sold a mini split for an edition that we were doing, and then when the guys showed up, they were like, Well, where's the hole in the wall?
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:49.920
I was like, what hole are you needing in the wall?
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.839
And they're like, Well, the unit slides through the wall like at a hotel room.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:58.240
And I was like, That's not the mini split that I have for you to provide at all.
00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:00.960
And they're like, Well, this is the same thing and it's cheaper.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:03.440
I was like, that's nowhere near the same thing.
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:04.720
It's a PTAC unit.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:05.759
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:06.640
Oh man.
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.960
And I was like, this is not gonna work out.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:10.720
You guys are gonna have to send that thing back.
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.680
And they're like, well, we ordered it based off what you were wanting.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:18.559
I was like, nope, not only that, it's not even the same brand that I had specified.
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.480
Like, don't try that.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:22.319
Just bust out the sawzall.
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:25.519
When he said, Where's the hole in the wall?
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:27.759
I had no idea what I was in for.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:32.240
And like 10 minutes later, it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever had on a job site.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.680
And he was like, Well, we just make sure we slope the pan to outside so it'll drain.
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:37.119
And I was just like, Oh, you got it.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.759
You're wanting me to cut an 18-inch by three foot hole in my envelope.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.880
So, yeah, that's the that's the market that we're still in.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:54.880
There are a few high performance builders, uh, people that do similar things to what we do, both in Columbia and in Kansas City, that are helping to drive the market forward.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:04.720
But the best thing you can possibly do with uh mechanicals is work with the same subcontractor every single time if they're willing to buy in.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:11.759
That working with them over and over and over again, they start to learn, hey, I can't just drill holes in the envelope.
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:17.759
Hey, I need to make sure that we have uh certain CFM to each room rather than just we have a duct in there.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.240
Um it's it's it's changing.
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.079
It's better than it used to be.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.240
Um it's tough.
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:28.799
It's one of the more difficult subcontractors.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:43.440
And when we look at health and comfort and offering control to our clients, I always say it's water, air, thermal, and mechanical system with your windows, like those things together manages the whole building.
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:44.559
And guess what?
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:47.599
The only one I'm not in charge of is mechanicals.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:52.319
Like I'm in charge of it because I'm a builder, but I'm not the one uh doing the doing the work.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:54.000
Our team's not the ones doing the work.
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:59.519
I didn't get to pick out the exact unit unless they're good and they want our opinion.
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.839
So I don't remember the last time an HVAC guy asked for my opinion, though.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:13.519
So for new builders that are well, not new builders, but builders who are trying to get introduced to doing things right, because I talk to them a lot when I'm on the road.
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.200
Um we were just at IBS.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.880
I had some that had a lot of like introductory questions and things like that.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:35.839
And um when you kind of got into this, um what were uh what were some of the things that you wish you knew, or maybe wish you would have approached a little bit differently, or what's some advice that you would have for a builder that's already building homes but trying to turn that corner?
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:45.200
The first and most unrealistic piece of advice I can give is uh apply all these things to a personal home and build it and use that as your proof of concept.
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:49.759
I know that absolutely almost no one can just go, okay, well, I can do that.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:52.319
I'll just build myself a house that I wasn't planning on building.
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:57.200
Um but that was like the highest level of understanding that I got for myself.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.319
It happened to be time for me to build a house for my family.
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:13.119
We were growing, it was a good opportunity, and I have learned more from building that house for myself because I did almost everything uh except for like the HVAC uh myself.
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:25.119
And so that process and then getting to understand what my failures were, what my successes were in the building, uh, that has been a huge uh bump forward in my knowledge base.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:29.599
Outside of that, clients will turn over electric bills.
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:35.680
So if you've done something that you think is gonna give the clients lower electric bills, ask for the data.
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:44.240
Just say I'm trying to verify that our uh what we've done is is correct, is amazing, um, is performing the way we promised it would.
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:49.839
And then the most basic is pick one thing on every job.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:27:00.640
Pick one thing to change your method and try something that's gonna offer you better results or or what you think are gonna be better results on every single project.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:07.680
And it when I say that, so many people go, yeah, but I can't just put zip r on that house because the clients don't want it.
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:09.119
Maybe.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:30.880
Or maybe you could find the correct way to educate them on why the code has changed and is now asking for continuous exterior insulation in most markets uh or in most climate zones, and have a discussion from a science standpoint with them about why it should be there and tell them that that's your standard and just include it in your initial pricing.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:41.039
When you include all the things that some people see as an upgrade in your initial ballpark pricing, you don't have to go back and turn them into add-ons.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:46.319
And that took me a long time to figure out because I paid for the zip R the first time we did it.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:56.240
I paid my sub uh at the time, our framing sub a little bit extra to frame 24 inches on center and do all of our air sealing, even though it was less wood.
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:03.680
Like they were installing and handling less stuff, so it should have been cheaper, but I paid the upgrade instead of charging the clients for it.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:06.559
Uh, so that I had the data to go, look, it works.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:18.400
Look, I can I can prove to you that this wall is perfectly fine, perfectly straight, perfectly structurally sound, and uh now next time you can see that it costs less to do.
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:19.440
So let's do that.
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:22.880
Um so I guess it's kind of threefold there.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:23.680
Yeah.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:32.400
If you can afford to add it, add it on your dime the first time to prove to everybody else involved in the process that it's correct.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:38.799
Uh if you can't, include it in your initial scope so that you don't have to sell it as an upgrade.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:42.319
Because everybody views this as an upgrade that needs an ROI.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:44.880
And that's the exact opposite of what it is.
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:50.880
We don't ask for ROI on square footage or on hardwood floors uh or our countertops.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:52.640
We do what we want.
00:28:52.799 --> 00:29:03.680
Well, if they are educated as to what the correct way to build a house, the thing that's going to lead to optimal comfort uh or health, then that's what they'll want, and you don't have to try to sell it.
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.000
It's now I just have to try to not mess it up.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:15.119
Yeah, I think one thing about the ROI that isn't you know figured in, you know, one of the points of building an airtight house is to make it last longer, right?
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:21.119
And if we don't take that into don't take that to heart and we don't do that, then we can start getting callbacks.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:21.759
Right.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:31.200
And so for the builder, you know, if you're able to do this and not have to go back to the house, I mean, have have you seen that in your own work or is that something that you talk with other builders about?
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:35.279
Like the the less callbacks you have, you know, after building a tight house?
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:36.000
Yeah.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:40.960
Um, so it it is it's a little hard to quantify, right?
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:48.799
Like if you're doing a good job before and you were doing the the code minimum, there's chances that you didn't have problems, right?
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.319
Because if you don't do most of these things, they're just elevating your risk.
00:29:52.480 --> 00:30:01.359
It doesn't mean that you will have condensation in the wall, it doesn't mean that you will have indoor air quality problems, it just means you have a higher risk of having those things happen.
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:08.160
And so I'm very lucky that we have been incredibly hands-on with all of our projects.
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:14.799
We have in-house carpentry since we started going after things that were higher performing, that were better for health and comfort.
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:18.240
That we have very little callbacks.
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:26.720
And the callbacks we have are like one of my project managers was in my office before I jumped on with you guys, and he was like, There are four nail pops in this stairwell.
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.839
He was like, I don't understand how we're getting nail pops in that stairwell.
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:36.720
And I was like, Yeah, but be happy there are nothing but four little nail heads showing in the drywall that we're gonna paint, repaint a stairwell.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:40.400
That's our callback for a custom home that we spent a year and a half on.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:42.079
That's fine with me.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:43.519
I'll take that any day of the week.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.200
We set that kind of money aside.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:50.559
Uh, you know, as long as we don't get a phone call that says we have a window leak and the house is two years old.
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:57.279
I'm more than happy to repaint a uh stairwell because you can see a couple nail heads that we probably missed while we were there.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:03.279
It's probably not that they're pops, it's probably that we did a bad job of checking that stairwell because it was up high.
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:04.240
You know, sure.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:12.559
So I would say that uh without data, I do feel like we have uh less callbacks than we ever have.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:15.599
Yeah, and probably a lot less stressful too, to not have to worry about that.
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:21.920
I was talking with a lot of local home builders around here, they're just constantly having to revisit and revisit and revisit when things go wrong.
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:23.279
We don't have those issues.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:24.640
I'm very, I'm very proud to say.
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:28.559
It's a catch a common theme that you try to make data-driven decisions.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:32.079
Yeah, it it just makes sense.
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:52.880
Like if you're just guessing, I I tell you what, I was at uh JLC probably closing in on 10 years ago, and Steve and I happened to be, Steve Basic and I happened to be standing in a uh a booth for an ERV manufacturer, and this we're just you know talking with uh a guy that we both knew that worked there.
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:58.000
And um this builder came walking by and he said, What do you guys do?
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:03.599
And they started explaining an ERV, and he said, Well, I don't need one of those, I build really tight houses.
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:07.599
And Steve like leaned forward and was like, How tight?
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:08.720
He was like, tight.
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.960
He's like, What kind of blower door score do you get?
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:13.039
And the guy was like, What's a blower door?
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:23.119
And I remember that guy's face to this day with Steve lecturing him about you have no idea how tight of a house you build.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:26.000
Like, I I you guys know how Steve can be.
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:34.799
He can be a little a little Marine Corps informed, pushy about things, uh, especially when he knows he's gonna be right.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:45.119
And I just sat there and listened to that and thought, how can he possibly know anything about whether or not he builds a quote unquote tight house?
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:45.599
Yeah.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:48.799
This relies on the uh visual inspection, like that.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.079
Yeah, like he's just walking around going, I don't see any cold.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:53.519
He must be good.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:07.359
Uh and so like that that conversation uh and watching Steve lay into that guy, I just was like, man, how much stuff do I think we do correctly that I have no idea whether or not we do?
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:07.759
Yeah.
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:13.039
Uh yeah, all the way down to like spray testing, spray water testing window installations.
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:22.799
At my personal house, Steve was the architect, and Steve happened to be visiting to look at another project with another client, and I said, Hey, do you want to spray the windows at my house?
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:24.079
He's like, Yeah, sure.
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:30.240
And out of the like 35 units on our on our house, uh, I think six of them leaked.
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:37.440
And talk about take a beating when the architect is standing there going, What the hell's wrong with you guys?
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:39.279
Why did you think that would work?
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:41.440
Uh, do you want to spray them all again?
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.680
Because I bet the rest of them are gonna leak too.
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:44.799
Like, no, no.
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:47.359
And I had done the work myself.
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:53.440
It was myself and like our most diligent carpenter that's ever worked with me, and we still had made mistakes.
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:59.759
And I was like, we definitely have windows that we've installed in the last six months for clients that were not installed properly.
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:03.839
That like it's it's a matter of time before I find out, sort of thing.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:09.199
Now, I haven't had any of those phone calls, so I'm very lucky that maybe it was just I did a bad job at my house.
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.239
Um, but if you don't test, you don't know.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.760
And data's the only thing that you can really hang your hat on.
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.239
Your opinion is doesn't mean crap.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:21.519
Yeah, window testing is rare for for residential.
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.719
We usually only see that in commercials, so that's really cool you guys are doing that.
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:28.880
I was just curious about your setup when you guys did the testing with spray racks and stuff.
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:31.199
Yeah, garden house and we can't afford a spray rack.
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:33.199
All our money on a lowered work.
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:36.159
That's a good choice, though.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:36.719
That's a good choice.
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:37.519
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:38.239
There you go.
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:40.960
Uh so yeah, we can't we can't afford a spray rack.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:43.840
And it's more water than what the windows should ever see, right?
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.679
Like us spraying up with a hose from five feet away for 10 minutes.
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:50.239
Yeah, that's more water than it's ever gonna get.
00:34:50.400 --> 00:35:02.239
Uh most of our most of our designs, uh be it with Steve or with other architects, are fairly conservative uh design-wise, which means we have overhangs and our windows are in protected situations.
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.639
So I'm not particularly worried about it.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:06.000
But if you don't know, you don't know.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:11.280
And when you were spraying it, did you have a negative pressure on the house, like to simulate simulate wind?
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:16.559
So at my personal house, when Steve and I tested, the blower door was not available.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:18.239
They were using it somewhere else.
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:25.599
And then when I made all the repairs, and after Steve left, I used um negative pressure.
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:32.079
Uh I put it at like negative 75 and ran it while I was doing everything, and we didn't get any more leaks.
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:41.679
And uh one of our very nerdy neighbors was like, Hey, we should get one of those uh car wash things and put some Don dish soap in it and see if we can make it leak.
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:43.679
And I was like, absolutely not.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:50.960
The rain is not gonna leave, the rain is not gonna have a surfactant in it, and that will make it leak in no time, I'm sure.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.639
Like that will make this the window sills themselves leak.
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:56.559
So uh yeah.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:01.519
My neighbors took great fun in watching me hose down a brand new building.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:02.639
Oh, I bet.
00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:05.760
Yeah, my my neighbors are wondering what I'm doing about half the time, too.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.400
But what is this red thing you keep putting up in your door?
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:08.960
Yeah.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:24.880
I tried recently to uh one one of my kids was watching me wash dishes, and uh I was they asked, holding the bottle of Don dish soap, like, uh, hey, it doesn't say anything about germs on here.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.880
And I was like, that's because it's actually not a cleaner, it's a surfactant.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:34.800
And I started trying to explain how it it makes this the surface so slippery that the stuff slides off of it.
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:39.280
And my 13-year-old was like, nerd, and then walked out of the room.
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:42.480
Maybe it is just me.
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:44.480
Maybe it's just me in our house.
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.320
My kids just walk out immediately.
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:51.119
They don't even stick around for the explanation.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.639
It was his question, and I was I was like, dude.
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:57.679
I was like, I'm raising a household of bullies.
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:01.199
That's all where's the detail on the windows where they were leaking?
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:02.239
What did get missed?
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:15.039
Like, yeah, so my personal house, we have uh European flangeless windows, and we decided to face seal so all four sides would be taped uh closed because they're all really well protected.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:21.440
Like there's like two or three windows that don't have great overhangs, uh ranging from two foot to five foot overhangs.
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:30.960
And I told Steve, like, why don't we just tape these on the outside face and then stuff insulation in on the inside and save taping one face?
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:39.280
Because normally we would tape, you know, uh horseshoe, head, and jams, and then leave the bottom open, but then also have to tape the inside.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.719
And so the outside was for managing water, the inside's managing air.
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:54.320
And I was like, I can save a trip around the building by not uh taping on the inside and just move everything to a face-sealed system, which most manufacturers are okay with, uh, flange windows or whatever.
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:58.960
They almost all have two install methods, one leaving the sill open, one leaving it closed.
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:07.199
Uh, and our transition from um jams to sill, the tape couldn't make that geometry.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:14.320
So we had two pieces of tape with an overlap, and it was almost exclusively overlaps uh and those joints.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:36.159
And so we had to go back through and uh smear a little uh sealant over top of it, uh, and it resolved the issue, but man, that was frustrating to fail in the first place and then have to make a whole nother trip around the building because you you gotta do it to the ones that aren't leaking too, because it just means they are not leaking yet, and we know what a what a problem is.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:45.920
So going around to uh you know a thousand corners is what it felt like at the time, and resealing every single one of them.
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:49.519
So thankfully it's my house, and I learned from it.
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:50.800
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.599
So let's uh let's talk about the build show for a minute.
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:57.599
You've been uh a contributing builder there for for a few years now.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:08.079
Um where is the best place that uh a home builder who's wanting to learn more can find content uh that you're putting up on how to do things right?
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.880
Primary source is buildshownetwork.com.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:15.760
Uh you're right, we've been putting up content there since late 2019.
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:17.599
I think uh I was looking the other day.
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:22.000
I think I've missed two weeks worth of content in the amount of time.
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:22.559
Wow.
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:34.000
Uh so we're talking a couple couple hundred videos there uh that are all focused on we think this is the correct way to do things.
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:40.400
Some of my videos are are building science, some of them are uh customer service, and some of them are business.
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:44.480
But the overwhelming majority are like, hey, look at this assembly.
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:53.920
This is why we're doing this assembly, this is why this matters, and this is why you should consider doing something that's uh accomplishing the same idea on your job site.
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:58.880
Um and it's it's a great spot for uh learning from others too.
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:03.039
Like I find value in what everybody else is putting up as well.
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:19.199
And so there are like 14 weekly contributors, uh, the experts, and then they've instituted uh a program called Pro, which is uh them republishing stuff from uh other sources from a few key uh people.
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:22.400
And then we also have podcasts up there too.
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:33.039
So like even the Unbuilded podcast that I do with Steve Basic and Peter Yost talking about building science and and the business of building, uh, it publishes there uh twice a month as well.
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:55.840
So there is a plethora of knowledge on that site, and at this point, I don't see how you would ever be able to catch up and watch everything on that site because at minimum there's like 16 videos a week from all over the country, from you know, HVAC and plumbing to electrical to uh framing content to to how do you charge for cost plus?
00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:02.559
Yeah, no, that content's free on there, and it is non-paywall uh uh content.
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:14.159
We we're very lucky that sponsors fund the site uh and and uh the overwhelming majority of those sponsors say go and do what you do, and and and we're happy to be involved.
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:14.960
It's really great.
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.079
Yeah, that's awesome.
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:21.840
Yeah, I know that ever since uh I remember it really kind of blowing up during during COVID.
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:28.000
Um, you know, the build show has really helped put a spotlight on airtightness, the importance of it in houses, and how to test.
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:38.800
And so really appreciate all that you've contributed to kind of help drive that because um we've definitely seen a shift in the industry um ever since that train really started rolling.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:47.760
So yeah, thanks for thanks for all you've done to help provide that education because a lot of those questions come come back to us um when they start digging into it.
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:48.639
So uh huh.
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:54.639
Well, I look at everything I put up there as I wish that someone would have told me this sooner.
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:58.320
And almost everything I know I learned from someone else.
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:03.360
So it's all about sharing, it's all about being able to find the knowledge.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:11.039
Uh and you know, I'm sure not every video I've put up is 100% correct now that I've learned more, but there's a pretty darn good basis.
00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:12.320
Somebody will tell you in the comments.
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:14.320
Yeah, I'm sure exactly something.
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:19.199
Yeah, but they tell you in the comments even when you're not wrong.
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:24.079
But that's actually a really uh interesting point.
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:38.559
When I uh when I speak publicly, I encourage people to um I encourage people to get on Instagram if they're not on Instagram, because our industry for Instagram is overwhelmingly positive.
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:50.719
And you know, you can't say that about um Facebook or YouTube, uh, but Instagram somehow has managed to stay an incredibly positive place.
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:52.880
Now, searching is difficult.
00:42:52.960 --> 00:43:07.360
You have to just find people that you like their content and and view their content every day, but I I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more positive environment for an industry uh than Instagram is for the home building side of things.
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:11.119
Um hashtags that you'd recommend or anything?
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:12.320
Uh I don't.
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.760
I you just have to get on there and and start looking for stuff.
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:23.679
I I guess I would say hashtag long live our buildings because Steve tags everything with so there's quite a few people that tag that now.
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:26.320
Yeah, the algorithm will do its thing.
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:26.960
Yeah.
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:27.360
Yeah.
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:29.840
Or you'll look at kittens for hours.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:36.320
And so you mentioned uh you mentioned your podcast earlier, the Unbuild It podcast.
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:41.519
Uh you and Steve and Peter have been doing that for a while, and that's now under the umbrella of the build show, correct?
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:46.079
Yeah, so they are a uh I I think the correct term would be republishing only.
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:53.360
Uh we can you can still get it through all of your regular um formats, Spotify, Apple Podcast, those sorts of things.
00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:56.079
YouTube, you can still get it on our YouTube channel.
00:43:56.159 --> 00:44:15.519
Uh but it was easy for us to say, yeah, if you guys want to put it Up, uh, you guys can put it up, and we'll gain uh uh you know a couple thousand followers per episode because there are people who only consume content through Build Show Network, like that's their go-to spot, and so it's nice to catch a few people that we wouldn't normally catch.
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:25.119
Uh and the added benefit for us is they let us use their studio, and so we no longer have to record at my office, which is quite nice for me.
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:26.639
Yeah, that's awesome.
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:30.719
So, yeah, we've been putting that out since uh early 2020.
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:33.039
So coming up on six years.
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:33.679
Nice.
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:34.480
Well, congrats.
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:35.760
Yeah, that's that's a good streak.
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:36.880
Hopefully it keeps going.
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:43.599
I I learned more from sitting at that table with Peter and Steve and literally just debating ideas.
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:50.400
Uh, or what happens is then we stop recording and then Peter says one more thing, and I'm like, that was the smartest thing of the whole day.
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:53.039
I just want to say that while we're, you know.
00:44:53.280 --> 00:45:01.199
Uh so that's I mean, I really have a lot of my knowledge base to really just directly attribute to those two.
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:14.639
Uh, I became friends with Steve in in 2013, not long after that, maybe 2015, I spent the whole week at IBS with Steve, and he introduced me to Mike Gurton and to Peter, and I spent time walking around.
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:24.639
Like, if you could pick three monsters in the industry that know everything, uh, that are also the best at sharing knowledge and answering questions.
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:33.519
The number of times uh, you know, when I first met Steve in 2013 that I asked questions that I now look back on that and go, man, that was a dumb question.
00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:35.920
And Steve answered it without being a jerk.
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:38.559
Like he was just like, oh, it's it's this, this, and this.
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:46.960
Uh, the the understanding that I've gained from them is greater than just about anybody in the industry, if not greater than than everybody else in the industry.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:50.719
Those guys uh and Mike Gerton have been amazing.
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:55.760
They put up with all my questions, and I feel like I accelerated my knowledge.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:03.840
Uh, you know, I got a PhD in two years from them, you know, uh, which it would have been way harder to figure out on my own.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:13.840
So that's when I say like I'm putting out stuff that I wish somebody would have told me earlier had I been friends with Pete and Steve and Gerdon in the early 2000s, we would have been here quicker.
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:14.559
Awesome.
00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:18.480
That's probably just like your curiosity and not afraid to ask some dumb questions once in a while, whatever.
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:21.920
That's a that's a really good point, uh, Ben.
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:29.519
Actually, the I live by like the mantra that I don't care if I asked an embarrassing question.
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:36.400
Uh if I don't know the answer, why wouldn't I be more embarrassed about not knowing the answer than asking a dumb question?
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:40.559
Like somebody has to say it for you to understand it most of the time.
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:42.400
Uh, you're gonna learn from other people.
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:46.639
Find someone who has gray hair and just continue asking the dumb questions.
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:54.639
I think it's part of why the podcast works so well because I I when I brought up the idea of us doing a podcast, I was like, look, I will play the dumb builder.
00:46:54.719 --> 00:47:06.320
And if you guys are talking about something that I don't know or that I think most people don't know, I have no problem being the one to not know on the podcast so that I'm asking the question, so that I'm going, well, hold on, explain that.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:09.599
What what do you mean by vapor drive doesn't happen if there's no air leakage?
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:12.000
You know, explain that again, you know, things like that.
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:19.440
And so it was a it's a really good format for living your life is to not be afraid to ask the question.
00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:21.599
Because if you have the question, somebody else does too.
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:23.280
So it's a good chance anyway.
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:25.199
I have no problem being the dumb one in the room.
00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:27.440
I'd rather be the dumb one than the smartest one.
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:37.679
Other things you've seen recently, and everything, any like building materials, techniques, equipment out there that you see on the horizon that's like has your curiosity up that you're excited about seeing come down the down the road?
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:47.440
I think one of the most interesting things is that you're seeing a whole swath of products that are multitaskers coming on the market like what Zibar is.
00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:55.519
You know, Zi R is water, air, and thermal, and technically vapor control in one product in one system from one manufacturer.
00:47:55.760 --> 00:48:06.159
And walking around the build show or the IBS uh recently, it felt like every single booth had a multitasker.
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:12.079
And not like they did 10 years ago, where nobody understood what their multitasker actually was going to do.
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:22.239
They had real building science departments uh where, like, I don't know, 10 years ago, not to call out one manufacturer, Dow Jones or Dow Chemical.
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:30.000
Yeah, they made insulation, but I don't think they really understood what they were doing with that insulins or implications of how it's installed.
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:38.239
And now they're coming out with products that are uh kind of multitaskers, like they had a structural sheathing with insulation.
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:42.320
And it's like, okay, that's not a thing that I would have expected from you guys.
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:46.880
And when I started asking questions, they grabbed someone whose name tag said building science on it.
00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:56.719
Like that, those are the things that I think are now whether or not they just wrote that in there in Sharpie uh and the person doesn't actually understand building science.
00:48:56.960 --> 00:48:57.920
To be determined, yeah.
00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:58.559
Yeah.
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:02.719
Uh, but like, yeah, that's not a product that I'm gonna use, probably.
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:08.559
It's you know, it I don't like the idea of putting that many, like it's just chemicals for your exterior wall.
00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:11.599
You know, it's polycarbonate and and XPS.
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:25.360
But the idea that they're going after the multitask market, that the that there was companies uh at IBS that had um a product that was to help you skip multiple steps of stucco that also counted as a WRB.
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:40.800
Like there's some things like that that, yeah, it might not be something we'll ever use, but it's really interesting to see that people are starting to understand that building science and the physics of how the building operates is much more important than they gave it credit in the 90s and 2010s.
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.199
Um, you know, it's it's a different world.
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:43.840
It's great to see.
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:44.480
Yeah, it's great to see.
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:45.199
It's refreshing.
00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:45.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:53.760
Yeah, well, any uh any final words of wisdom uh that you would share for any of those that were maybe in your shoes maybe 15 years ago?
00:49:54.000 --> 00:50:07.119
I would push the the data side of things, and while this is RetroTech's podcast, I would say buy your own blower door because our blower door tests are$600 a time if we want a sub to come out and do it.
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:15.920
And you can pay for your blur door and a few extra uh blur doors, and it's really nice to have the equipment to do the testing that you need.
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:18.159
And YouTube didn't pay me to say that even.
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:19.519
Not yet, anyway.
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:19.920
Not yet.
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:27.760
It's been it's been the single most useful and informative tool that we've bought uh in the last 15 years.
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:29.280
Uh it really has.
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:35.440
And the knowledge that we've gained from it helps us compete in the market in a substantial way.
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:39.280
And hopefully a tool that's like not necessarily complicated to use either, right?
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:39.679
Like that.
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:40.559
It's not.
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:43.039
My project manager, Brent, can do it.
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:44.960
Tell Brent to listen.
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:45.840
Yeah, exactly.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.119
Wait till the end.
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:48.880
Yeah.
00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:54.719
That would be my my advice is you have to find a way to understand uh to get the data.
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:56.639
And without the data, it's just your opinion.
00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:57.679
Just guessing it.
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:01.760
Yeah, so I guess uh next time we'll see you, I guess we'll be at uh Build Show Live.
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:03.679
If I don't see you in the field or somewhere.
00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:04.719
JLC.
00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:07.199
Uh I don't know if we'll be at JLC.
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:07.519
Okay.
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:09.039
That's a hard one for us to make.
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:12.000
We've got a small team, we're always pulled thin in that time of year.
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:12.880
But yeah.
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:14.480
So build show live then.
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:15.039
Yeah.
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:16.480
So awesome.
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:17.679
When's that happening?
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:22.320
Uh that is September 10th, 11th, 12th, I believe.
00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:23.840
It's in San Antonio this year.
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:24.719
Awesome, yeah.
00:51:24.800 --> 00:51:25.039
Right on.
00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:26.880
So it'll still be 100 degrees.
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:27.440
Yep.
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:29.280
In September.
00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:34.800
But the convention center is conditioned, so come see us.
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:35.440
Yeah.
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:36.239
Hey, awesome.
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:37.360
Thanks for having me, guys.
00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:38.239
I appreciate it.
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:39.119
Yeah, thanks for coming.
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:40.079
This is great.