speaker-0: Hello and welcome to the Dean's List, a podcast created by the Howersham School to help parents feel better connected to classical education and better prepared and equipped as parents. My name is Clay Heining, and I'll be your host for today's episode of The Dean's List. This is our very first episode, and I'm excited to welcome my colleague and co worker, my friend and fellow Dean, the Dean of Academics, Brent Beaumont, to the studio. Brent, welcome to the podcast. It is good to be here. A little bit of trivia. We are sitting at the table that you used growing up in your home. I don't know how this table ended up at the Haversham School. Not really sure how it ended up in my office, but here we are in my office. And all of you that are listening today, we're glad that you've joined us. And our hope is that you would feel like you're sitting on the other side of the table. So you've just come to the
speaker-1: Thanks, Clay. It's great to be here.
speaker-0: the Dean of Students Office and you're with the Dean of Academics as well. And we're gonna have a a conversation, some pretty big questions. But before that, Brent, how was how was your summer? Did you guys get to do anything fun? Have any crazy adventures?
speaker-1: ⁓ thanks, Clay. Yeah, we did have ⁓ a good summer so far. ⁓ just ⁓ actually last week got back from a three week trip to England. Wow. ⁓ yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. We we spent the first week up in Yorkshire, ⁓ which is kind of in the north of England. ⁓ my we've been had this tradition for a good number of years now where my parents ⁓ rent a house somewhere for all of us to stay at. So it's me and Katie and our kids, and it's my younger brother and his wife and kids and my older brother and my parents. ⁓ so this year my parents wanted to they wanted to go to England. So they found a place up in Yorkshire and we we went over there and ⁓ stayed in the house for a week and we just kind of drove around ⁓ Yorkshire, visited some different sites, ⁓ and that was really a lot of fun. ⁓ and Katie and I went off and we celebrated our twentieth anniversary.
speaker-0: Congratulations on twenty years. Thank you for the
speaker-1: Yeah, we we did. We went to the Cotswolds, which is an area kind of more in the south of England, west of London, and ⁓ we did what's known as a walking holiday. Mm-hmm. Which it it's really, you know, not what we would consider a holiday 'cause you do a lot of walking. ⁓ we walked ⁓ a hundred and two miles over the course of nine days. ⁓ we we followed what's called the Cotswold Way, which is ⁓ one of the national trails in England. ⁓ It uses the kind of the existing network of footpaths and trails that are all throughout the countryside. And we walked from Chipping Camden in the north of the Cotswolds down to Bath, which is in the south of the Cotswolds. And we we stayed at ⁓ some, you know, different villages along the way, different ⁓ pubs and ⁓ B and Bs along the way. ⁓ and that was really it was strenuous, ⁓ but it really was a lot of fun. We saw a lot of beautiful country, really just a Kind of a bonding experience, honestly.
speaker-0: I bet. Yeah. That that's a little more than eleven miles a day, right? Yeah.
speaker-1: It was. We had a few days that were like fifteen. Those were very difficult days. We had some l light lighter lighter days that were like seven or eight, which were nice. Mm-hmm. ⁓ one of the one of the interesting highlights we saw along the way was we walked up on top of Cooper's Hill, which ⁓ you know, probably doesn't mean anything to most people here in the States, but Cooper's Hill is the site of the annual cheese rolling competition. It's ⁓ Yeah, so what it is, ⁓ basically
speaker-0: The cheese rolling competition.
speaker-1: bunch of people ⁓ that are kind of crazy. ⁓ they Cooper's Hill is very steep. ⁓ the average grade is about fifty percent. Okay. ⁓ so it's like a 45 degree angle up this hill. And they start at the top of the hill and they basically race to the bottom of the hill. ⁓ and they while they're racing, they're chasing a a wheel of cheese that's rolling down the hill. and whoever gets to the bottom of the hill first gets the gets the wheel of cheese is their prize.
speaker-0: Do they eat it after it's rolled on the ground?
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, they'll they'll eat it. It's all they wrap it up really well, you know, they ⁓ they package it up. Okay. So the cheese is safe. The chief the cheese actually has the safest journey down the hill because it's you know small and it rolls really well. The people, I mean, they they fall over, they they roll, they bounce, they break bones, they bruise themselves. ⁓ it's it's ⁓ it's pretty entertaining. But ⁓ actually if you're interested in the cheese rolling, you can watch ⁓ there's a little episode on a Netflix show called We Are the Champions. ⁓ And the first episode is about the cheese rolling event. ⁓ so if you're interested in that, go check that out. It's ⁓ one of those kind of unique old traditions in England that's ⁓ you know, the authorities have tried to shut down and the people just keep it going year after year after year.
speaker-0: Very interesting. We are actually recording this in the summer. It's gonna come out right before school starts. So are you already ready for school to begin?
speaker-1: ⁓ gosh. ⁓ probably not. ⁓ still some things to do. ⁓ still enjoying the slower pace of life that we enjoy in the summertime. So no, not not quite ready for s for school to start. I'm sure that would be the same way for most of our most of the folks in our school community trying to enjoy the much of the summer as they can. ⁓ but I am excited, obviously, for the start of school. Always excited to see the students return. Mm-hmm. and to see the teachers get get to work in the classroom, I'll be in the classroom myself as well. And that's always is is a r is a real energizing and life giving time to be in the classroom with students. But we also enjoy the the downtime as well.
speaker-0: All right, as we begin this school year, I would think many of you longtime parents might be asking, why are we creating a podcast? This is something new. This is something exciting. I'm pretty excited about this podcast. And here's what we're hoping to do. We want to provide more resources for our parents. We really mean it when we say we want to partner with you. And what the Habersham School does is distinct and different from progressive education. We're we're a different kind of school than. ⁓ all the ones around us. And so we want to give you resources to help understand what makes us distinct, what makes us different, what makes us special. It's also very difficult to parent well. And we want to partner with parents in that good work of parenting. So our episode today, this first episode, a couple of big questions that we want to tackle or we're going to attempt to tackle. We're going to just ask what is classical education? What is it About classical education that is different than maybe what we would expect. ⁓ it really what we want to talk about is why would parents choose classical Christian education for their family and for their children? Now, those two questions, we're gonna have a guest join us in just a little bit. ⁓ his name is Hal Whitman, and Hal is a leader of a school in Princeton, New Jersey. He's he's actually the founder and he's been the head of school there for a little over two decades. And the reason he's gonna join us is I wanted our Habersham community to hear a leader from another classical Christian school in a completely different part of the country talk about what classical education is and how it's been a blessing to his family, how it's been a blessing to his community there in in Princeton, New Jersey. But before Hal joins us, I have another monster question. And Brent, you're really here to tackle that one. So ⁓ I want to hear you talk about the Habersham. Mission statement. What is our school's mission statement? Why does the Haversham School exist? What is behind all that we're doing? Brent?
speaker-1: Yeah, well, thanks, Clay. It's a really good question. It's a big question. ⁓ and it's an important question, right? To know why we exist and and why are we here. ⁓ so our our mission statement, we can start there. ⁓ we say that we at the Habersham School exist to partner with God as his servants in seeking the restoration of his image in our students through education. ⁓ so I'll say that one more time. Our our mission is that we exist to partner with God. as his servants and seeking the restoration of his image in our students through education.
speaker-0: Wow. I think we could probably have a whole podcast series just about that mission statement, at least five or six episodes. There's so much to talk about. So let me ask you this which part of the mission statement resonates with you most? And and and maybe I should say which part of the mission statement resonates the most with you today? Cause it could be different in in different seasons of your life. And if you are a prospective parent, That's a common question we ask in our parent interviews is we'll share this mission statement and then we'll just ask the mom and dad what part of that statement is meaningful to you. So what about you, Brent? What what part of that mission statement today resonates with you?
speaker-1: Yeah, well think what what stands out to me, right, in the mission statement is ⁓ the language about ⁓ restoring the image of God in our students. ⁓ I think the any kind of educational project ⁓ is going to be motivated by what who what we think the human person is, right? Who who do we think our students are? ⁓ what is uniquely true about them ⁓ that we're here to serve, right? And so ⁓ really Every every education s has is motivated by some kind of anthropology. ⁓ and ours is motivated by the understanding that our students are image bearers of God, right? That's really w the most important thing that we have to keep in mind on a day-to-day basis is that we are here to educate image bearers of God, right? That that's what God wants for them. He wants for them to bear his image, right, in their lives, and that we exist. to come alongside the f the fleshing out, right, the development, the restoration of that image in our students. ⁓ so yeah, that that's really what sticks out to me.
speaker-0: Wonderful. ⁓ I'm gonna put in the show notes a link to an article that is on Andy Crouch's website. And Andy Crouch wrote this article a couple of years ago. ⁓ he's the author of the Techwise Family and several other important kind of culture-ish ⁓ books. this article, he titled it The Three Callings of a Christian. And he says the first calling is to bear the image of God. The second calling is to restore the image of God wherever you go. And then his third calling is the contingent calling, which he he's like, that's just your vocation or job. And he doesn't spend much time talking about that, which is ironic for our culture because we're we're in a culture that is super obsessed with what do you do for a living? If we first if we were just meeting, that would probably be one of the first questions we would ask each other is what do you do for a job? And and And we use that as a lens to try to understand who people are. And Andy Crouch makes the argument. He says, it doesn't really matter what you do as long as you get those first two callings right. So if you're ⁓ focused on bearing the image of God well, and if you're focused on wherever you go, wherever you find yourself, restoring that image of God in different places and in different people, then it really doesn't matter what you do for for a living. So in ⁓ I guess educational terms, ⁓ What I would say is our students from pre-K four, so four year olds all the way up to twelfth grade, eighteen year olds, these are human beings. And we believe that each student is a unique human created by the Lord, a a unique image bearer. They are not brains on a stick. They are not containers that we are just stuffing information into, right? They're humans. And we're working on that restorative process. We believe that education is a pathway of Christian discipleship. So we aren't just working at the Habersham School to get students into college. That isn't the main goal. But let me ask you, Brent, our students, do they still go to college?
speaker-1: Well certainly, yeah. I mean the vast majority of our students ⁓ go off to college and they the the the majority of them go off and complete, you know, four year degree programs ⁓ at colleges and universities ⁓ around the country, you know, obviously a lot in in the state of Georgia and the southeast, but really students go a a variety of places around around the country. Yeah. ⁓ you
speaker-0: Your son's about to start his second year Yeah. Right wheat.
speaker-1: That's Wheaton College, which is just outside of Chicago, ⁓ Illinois.
speaker-0: My daughter's about to start her freshman year at Barrie College, which is in North Georgia. So both excellent institutions, both graduates of the Howard from School. No problem getting in into college.
speaker-1: And and I think what you said earlier about the the three callings is really important. I mean, that really gets at what I think resonates with me about our mission. ⁓ you know, I think in a lot of educational environments today, whether it be, you know, secondary schools or or or colleges and universities, you you'll hear a lot about ⁓ you know, career readiness, right? Getting ready for the workforce, f figuring out, you know, pursuing a a degree or a path of study that's gonna prepare you for some kind of job. ⁓ and I think that says a lot about what how we think about human beings ⁓ in in our particular cultural context. I do think we we think about them primarily, maybe primarily as workers, right? People that that that work, that produce, ⁓ in in the kind of the the ⁓ the the workforce of our society. and and while work is certainly fundamental to to who we are as humans, because we mean we see that even in scripture, right? ⁓ God creates Adam and Eve. And he puts them in a garden and he he commands them to work, right? To work ⁓ the garden. ⁓ but but the but the work is motivated not simply for its own sake, right? They work because they're made in God's image and it's who he made them to be. It's part of their of of of who they are, it's part of their humanity to work. But it's not the only aspect of their humanity, right? He also made them to to worship him. He made them to to create things. and he made them to to be in relationship with each other, right? And to to love each other and to have children and and to ⁓ cultivate a family. There's lots of th ways, things that God called them to do. Work is just part of it. ⁓ and so we want to really step back and see our students as you know, all the aspects of their humanity and and and how can we as a school really work to develop Right, to restore all those aspects of their humanity, right? Their their social life, their spiritual life, their their creativity in the arts and music, right? ⁓ their their analytical abilities that we develop of course in mathematics and science. ⁓ their, you know, their their their empathy, which we often develop through the humanities, right? As you read stories about different kinds of people, you you learn a lot about the human condition. Right, about your own self, but also about other people. You become a more, you know, a more empathetic person, right? Someone who who is ⁓ sees other people, right, in in the in their situation for who they are and and wants to ⁓ come alongside them, right, to serve them. That's really what we want for our students. We really want them honestly to fulfill right the two great commandments ⁓ that that Jesus talks about, right? To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor. as yourself. If you do those two things, right, you are you're a human person, you're a human being bearing God's image. What how you do those things, what kind of vocation you pursue is is like like Andy Crouch said, a contingent contingency, right? It's just the mechanism of the place in which you flesh that out. ⁓ but it's not the only place you flesh it out, right? You you do it in all all aspects of life.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, all of those out there who are listening to this podcast, you can obviously tell why Brent Beaumont is one of our students' favorite teachers of all time. You can tell why our faculty love to have him as the Dean of Academic. So, Brent, thank you so much for sharing some of your ⁓ knowledge about our Habersham mission. And in just a few moments, we're gonna bring Hal Whitman in and we're excited to talk to him. So we'll be back in just a moment with Hal. Thank you, Brent.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: All right, we're back and I'm very excited to have our very first guest on the Dean's List podcast. I'd like to welcome Hal Whitman all the way from Princeton, New Jersey. Hal, welcome to the podcast.
speaker-2: Thank you so much for having me. As your first guest, it's a privilege.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Well well, we're excited. I want to tell our audience a little bit about who you are. You've been married to Brenda for thirty years. Congratulations. All four of your kids went to the Wilberforce School, which is the classical Christian school that you founded. You've been the head of school there for ⁓ gosh, a little over two decades, I think. In and then they all went to college. ⁓ I think three of them went to U V A. Is that right?
speaker-2: Three was UVA and one went to Washington Lee. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's that's great. All that's great. All right through
speaker-2: Wilbur Force from from kindergarten. Wow.
speaker-0: Wow. Well, you're here today. We we've invited you here ⁓ to answer some pretty big questions about classical Christian education. Before we dump jump into those questions, I have some icebreaker questions just 'cause I want our audience to get to know you a little bit more on a personal level. I wanna know, and there's no judgment here, this is just for fun, ⁓ what music Have you been listening to in the past few weeks? Maybe it's on Spotify, maybe it's on your turntable record player, maybe it's in the car. Who has your ear? ⁓ Brent, let's go with you first. What wh wh who have you been listening to? ⁓ that's
speaker-1: ⁓ you know, I haven't honestly been listening to a lot of music lately 'cause we were just traveling. ⁓ I find that I don't really listen to music ⁓ like through headphones very often. I mostly listen to music in the car and we just weren't in the car ⁓ too much. ⁓ so ⁓ but I think ⁓ while we were traveling, some of the folks in our some of the my family was getting ready to go see Hamilton ⁓ down in London. So I did listen to all of Hamilton. ⁓ through that, which was I've listened to it before, but it was interesting to hear it again. And just kind of think about the history ⁓ that comes through that. It's not my my I ideal kind of music. ⁓ I probably tend to listen to a lot more kind of like ⁓ alt country folk kind of music. ⁓ one of my one of my biggest ⁓ one of my go to's is a guy named Coulter Wall who's ⁓ he's kind of a Canadian cowboy. ⁓ sings a lot about the West and ⁓ so That would be if I decided wanted to kinda relax on an evening, that's probably what I'd put on is something like coulterwall.
speaker-0: Yeah, rap music isn't traditionally your style. ⁓ you introduced me to Gregory Ilan Alan Isaachoff not too long ago and ⁓ that's great music. Hal, what about you? What what have you been listening to?
speaker-2: Well, Brett, you're exposing my musical taste to be much less elevated than yours. I I have two things. One, when I'm paying bills or doing taxes or some some task like that, I find I need something like the B-52s or 80s One Head Wonders or classic rock, something ridiculous that sort of parallels you know, the tax code, something like that. So that that I have been indulging in a little bit in the background. ⁓ however, ⁓ more edifying in the car. ⁓ I f I love the music of Rich Mullins. ⁓ of you all this generation has discovered him, but he's a wonderful ⁓ Christian, ⁓ really f folk ⁓ singer and just his lyrics are so edifying and and I I he plays the dulcimer as well as other instruments. So I I love Rich Mullins and Heartily recommend him, not necessarily B fifty two or eighty five.
speaker-0: Well, how you're speaking my musical love language. Rich Mullins and Andrew Peterson are my two favorite singer-songwriters of all time. When I was in high school, I had the it was on CD. ⁓ it was a liturgy, a legacy, and a ragamuffin band. And I I listened to that album all the time. wore out that CD. And the interesting thing is When I was 16, 17 years old, I didn't know what liturgy meant. And ⁓ the ironic thing is I listened to it so much, I didn't know how it was shaping me. It was changing who I was, listening to that music. And it wasn't until, gosh, I was probably 40 years old when I was like, ⁓ I understand what is happening with this album, what's happening with this music. And it's so rich. I mean, his name is Rich Mullins, but it's so rich theologically, so deep, so beautiful. I just absolutely Love it. So that that's my answer all the time. If you hop in the car with me, it's gonna be Rich Mullins, Andrew Peterson, Andy Golhorn, ⁓ something like that. ⁓ you know, a few times I will listen to something like ⁓ there's this song Augustana sings about the city of Boston, and ⁓ it's just kind of like this this ballad where you roll down the windows and and sing really loudly. But most of the time I'm listening to to Rich Mullins or or Andrew Peterson. Okay, enough about Music, I want to jump into classical Christian education. How you have a story that is compelling. And I say that for a number of reasons. ⁓ one is this your educational background, your personal education background is very impressive, very fancy. you're somebody that I like to brag on, like, hey, I know somebody who's gone to these these premiere schools and and ⁓ it's it's It's just the best of the best. I would say that when you were in, you know, your younger years, you went to the premier private school in Atlanta, Georgia. And then you know, I was asking you how you chose a college and you were saying you really wanted to play football at the University of Georgia. And of course I'm a I'm a Georgia Tech grad, so I won't hold that against you, but but you you discovered, sadly, that you you probably weren't gonna make the team there between the hedges. And so you ended up at Princeton University went Ivy League and I did a little bit of research on on Princeton. It's you know started in seventeen forty six. A couple of leaders at Princeton University, John Witherspoon, who signed the Declaration of Independence. ⁓ Jonathan Edwards was the president of Princeton. We have some presidents, some United States presidents who attended Princeton, James Madison. We have a house here at the Howardson School named after James Madison, but ⁓ Woodrow Wilson Graduated from Princeton, just ⁓ kind of an amazing place. ⁓ i i I I think I saw on the website that fifty four Nobel Prize winners are connected to Princeton Universities, which is you know, just sounds ridiculous. Kinda kinda sounds outrageous. But you didn't stop just at Princeton. Your graduate degree, you went to a business school that is, I would say, the most well known business school in America, probably ⁓ you know, regarded as the best. It's it's Wharton ⁓ School of Business, which is part of ⁓ the University of of Pennsylvania. And ⁓ notable people went there, Elon Musk, Warren Buffett, all all kinds of of people. You you had the best of the best. So I want to know what happened that resulted in you starting a new school, a different kind of school, a classical Christian school in Princeton, New Jersey, which is a place already filled With lots of impressive schools, reputable schools, how how did you end up discovering classical Christian education?
speaker-2: Well, it we were young parents when we we moved back to Princeton in two thousand two and we had a three year old and a one year old and our three year old how was going to preschool, just starting to dip his big toe into the school world. And ⁓ you know, we just noticed as new parents that you could play something on the radio, a snippet of a song, maybe, you know, one of those songs. that were is more lowbrow cadet that I mentioned earlier. ⁓ and they could then repeat it back ⁓ instantly and and it was a little scary. ⁓ and you realize, wow, they are sponges. And we need to be careful actually what we what we put in front of them. ⁓ And that really made us think about school and the teachers and the materials and the approach to education and that they would have. And not just on the negative side, but the positive side, like what an opportunity when they are just taking in everything. And you could we we would read GoDog Go and they'd memorize the whole book. And you know, as as most parents, you know, discover that. What an opportunity to t to be deliberate and intentional about what we actually give them. So we started to tour schools in the area and Princeton. ⁓ similar to the university, the every kind of model of school is here. There's there's Waldorf and Quaker schools and prep schools and Montessori schools and so forth. So we we toured them all, mostly my wife, and we just we we ⁓ we developed simple criteria that we wanted we wanted great materials for them to absorb and we wanted to be thoroughly Christian in its approach to their character development ⁓ and their spiritual development. And we realized that Those two things, you can't separate them. In other words, even if you wanted to say, ⁓ let's let's just do the intellectual development, you know, eight o'clock to three, and let's do the spiritual and character development the rest of the time. You couldn't do that. It's happening together. And so ⁓ we want an integration of div of ⁓ addressing their formation, not just between the ears, their intellectual ⁓ formation, but their character formation and their spiritual formation. We wanted to be grounded in historical Christian Orthodox faith and practice. So that's what we were looking for. And it was it there just wasn't anything in this area that was doing that. And so that's how we got launched on this journey to to start a school.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I was hearing you even tell a story about your son. He was maybe five years old in kindergarten. ⁓ and I think he wa he he had already noticed that there was a difference between what you guys were doing at at church on the weekend and what he was experiencing at school during the week. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah.
speaker-2: He was at a Montessori school. I think he was four or five years old before we started the school. And he was talking to one of his buddies at school, and and he told me, he said, Patrick says we should hate our enemies. And and I said, ⁓ that's interesting. Well, ⁓ how did you get into that conversation? And he talked a little bit. I said, So were you talking to him about the Bible, how it says we should love our enemies? And how's it a response was sometimes I get my church plans and my school plans confused. And ⁓ it was such a great expression from a five-year-old, like his plans for church conversations and school conversations. And already there was this dualism. It was sort of like I we talk about these things at church and we talk about these things at school, and never the twain shall meet. These two streams. Don't meet them. It's weird if they do. And that's where we really recognize the need for integration. Like that, you're you're by by excluding this full realm of the character of spiritual life from the conversation at school, there's this myth of neutrality, but it actually is an exclusion of the the most important things of life from that conversation. So that's where we sort of always clued us into the need for integration.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. That's great. I I was hearing you also talk about ⁓ some of your studies at at Princeton. ⁓ what w w tell us what was your w what did you major in while you were there at Princeton?
speaker-2: Well, I I was in the school of public and international affairs, ⁓ public policy, essentially. And ⁓ you know, ⁓ the thing that I discovered, ⁓ I mean, I had a ⁓ an insight at the end. I I took a class ⁓ that was on international ⁓ theory, international relate theory of international relations, something like that. And and for one of our assignments, we read a chapter in this ⁓ This Greek, ancient Greek ⁓ Peloponnesian War by Thucydides. And you're reading this chapter and it's talking about the concepts that we're talking about in classic for contemporary international relations and so forth, about alliances and and and ⁓ and how nations and if ⁓ interact with each other compete. And I just thought to myself, I could have Graduated from this prestigious place with all these Nobel Prize winners without ever having read anything before 1960. ⁓ if I hadn't taken this one class. And I just thought, I would how could I have called myself educated? And I barely actually call myself educated now, because it used to be ⁓ that you really education you weren't educated unless you had actually read the grades, what was called the grades. ⁓ that were the the the great thinkers of of your discipline or just of general thinking through the ages. And what has happened is, and you know, we could talk about why, but I think that's beyond the scope of it. But like around the turn of the century in the progressive era, the the early 1900s, the the greats and the c ⁓ the the classic the the ⁓ the classical curriculum was just thrown out essentially. And that's what I experienced in my education in the seventies and eighties ⁓ was a a a contemporary only curriculum that had thrown out a lot of what was considered to be must reads.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's interesting you say that, Hal. I remember I had a somewhat similar experience when I was in seminary, actually. ⁓ know, I was studying theology and surrounded by a lot of, you know, very kind of high level intellectual people. ⁓ but a lot of the curriculum, honestly, a lot of the the books that we interacted with were fairly contemporary, you know, works of theology. ⁓ but there was a few students that I kind of became close to, one in particular, who had he wa he was he had been classically educated. you know, back be when classical education was pretty new, but he had studied under George Grant ⁓ in in Nashville, Tennessee, and received this really rich education. And the more I interacted with him, the more I realized the depth of knowledge and just of e of the breadth of ⁓ variety of texts that he had read and interacted with and that he could pull upon kind of in his thoughts and his conversations and just how it shaped him as a person and who he was. ⁓ and it it was different than everybody else, you know, that had not received that kind of education. And I was so impressed with it, so kind of in all of it, ⁓ that I went after seminary and kind of got my own classical education. I went to St. John's College and did their great books program because I had not received anything like that. I'd, you know, done my undergrad in engineering, which was a highly technical you know, enterprise with very little dabbling in the humanities. And even in seminary, you know, there was there was some discussion of, you know, these kind of ancient thinkers, but it was not, you know, what you would what you would ⁓ imagine it could have been. So ⁓ yeah, I I agree with you that there's something so rich about a classical education, the way it shapes your your you as a person, how you think, how you interact with other people. ⁓ I I was impressed with it and and kind of my eyes were opened as to the value of it.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-2: I I think it's important for parents to realize as they think about what classical Christian education is, that often there is a there is a an assumption that what is new is better. And I think that we all experience that in it with in technology. I mean that, you know, new computers, newer computers are better than older computers. And the newer technology with your dishwasher or whatever, ⁓ you know, w whatever it is, your phone. ⁓ technology improves over time and there's progress. Okay. But there's an assumption that that gets mapped over to to education or to ⁓ other things in life. And ⁓ Chris C. S. Lewis calls it chronological snobbery. ⁓ is the name he gave for it, which is that everything that's new is better than what is old. And ⁓ but we know that that God it never changes. We know that the nature of human beings as image bearers ⁓ is unchanging. And there are some truths and ⁓ that that are true from generation to generation. And so classical education is the pursuit of truth, goodness, and beauty. I think you're probably gonna ask about this later, but like di different ways of thinking about what classical Christian education is, it's time-tested learning. ⁓ It is methods and materials that have stood the test of time. And it's the best of human thought through the ages. So if you if you if you have a elevator, just condensed description of what classical Christian education is, that those would be the three best little short formulations I could come up with. Time-tested learning is the shortest. Materials and methods that have stood the test of time. Or the best of human thought through the ages that you're giving to your to your children. ⁓ and I I was thinking about this. There's this great passage in Jeremiah six, ⁓ sixteen. It says, Thus says the Lord, stand by the roads and look, ask for the ancient paths where the good way is, and walk in it and find rest for your souls. So I think that contemporary bias is towards The new and ⁓ there's certainly valuable things that are new. But I think that classical education is is trying to draw from things that are unchanging and timeless and contributions ⁓ that are let's say that we talked about like that ancient Greek philosopher talking about international relations. ⁓ contributions that have been made that have that we have stood on their shoulders to to reach. ⁓ and and so ⁓ the value of exposing students to the best of human thought.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. There's ⁓ this great little y you know, talking about how our culture just favors the new all the time. There's a Wendell Berry essay, a really short one, that he wrote in the, I want to say in the eighties or nineties. I mean, it it's kind of dated now, but the title is Why I'm Not Going to Buy a Computer. And he is resisting ⁓ the pressure to can be contemporary, you know, to move into this kind of ⁓ technological world that we're living in. And he's making an argument. ⁓ he's listing the reasons why he's never going to buy a computer. And he says that he's been told that if he were to use a computer, it would make his writing better. And and he responds and says, Will it make it better than Dante? You know, like if you can show me something written with a computer that's demonstrably better than than that, then maybe I'll use one. And he says, ⁓ he he kind of pokes fun at us. loving the new idea. He says if using a computer is a new idea, then not using a computer is an even newer idea.
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-2: Which
speaker-0: I really appreciate it ⁓ about him. I I mean, just the things you were just saying is gonna answer the question I'm about to ask you. But ⁓ you know, part of this podcast that we're doing, it's called the Dean's List. We we want it to be about classical Christian education. We want to give our parents resources to help understand what's distinct and different about what the Habersham school is doing. We also want to give them great resources on how to parent. There's so much information and misinformation out there. And we wanna ⁓ you know, in partnering with our parents, we wanna give them solid, good, good ⁓ things to think about. And so here here's the question. Why should a classical Christian education be what parents are desiring for their children, whether they live in Princeton, New Jersey, Savannah, Georgia, no matter where they are in the country or in the world, why why should a classical Christian education be what they're hoping for their children?
speaker-2: ⁓ well, th there ⁓ w one of the reasons is that there were very valuable methods and materials that were thrown out ⁓ that are worth recovering. Let me give you an example. When I was learning how to read in the seventies, there was a trend in education that was called whole language learning. And it was r really not a great way to learn how to read. And I really struggled with reading all I mean, I still struggle with reading. And the there were ⁓ the the the the that education is very trendy and and schools and school systems tend to jump on trends, partly because they're afraid of being left behind. And I think that when we started the school or in the 2000s, the iPad and the Chromebook came out, and every school is adopting Chromebooks. And what a classical school does is say, we are going to use technology selectively when it's proven to enhance instruction. We're not we're not eschewing and putting off all forms of technology all the time, but we're just saying we're not gonna jump on a a trend just because we're afraid of being left behind. We're gonna we're gonna use time tested methods of learning. So that applies to reading as well to get back to that. Phonics and phonemic awareness is just a better way to look to learn reading And a proven way to learn reading for especially for students for all students, but especially those who are struggling. So we are and just to finish the story, ⁓ with the Chromebooks, with all these schools that adopted Chromebooks, lots of them have decided not to use them anymore because they're so distracting for students. So ⁓ that is a hallmark of a classical school, is that we're going to use. time tested methods and materials and not jump on every educational trend or every ed tech trend.
speaker-0: That's great. I mean that's that's exactly exactly right. we want our students to have beautiful things and like you said, time tested things that have ⁓ existed for ages and y yeah, ⁓ it is kind of ⁓ surprising how quickly ⁓ and for whatever reason in my mind I'm picturing the people of Israel, they they have left Egypt and Moses has gone up on the mountain and how quickly they just went back to to idols. You know, they made made a golden calf. And and I I think that's technology for us in in a big way is that golden calf. We're replacing what's true and tested and proven with what is is convenient or what kind of ⁓ catches our eye or glimmers the right way.
speaker-2: Yeah, and I I will just say something about AI. I mean, I I know AI is a great tool, and I and I think all of us adults are are using it and learning how to use it and so forth. And I think that as students get older, there will there are times in their assignments and so forth where they need to learn how to use it. But w we should be clear about that the the the mere transfer of data from a computer to a pa to the to an assignment or to to your child's thinking is not constitute learning. We value students actually learning to ⁓ to independently work through a calculus problem or work through a developing a thesis and supporting c ⁓ supporting their claims in an essay. And those are important in even learning proper grammar so that they can ⁓ as colleges actually move back to blue books because they they they can't monitor cheating in ⁓ without doing that. You actually have to have your own grammar and spelling be correct ⁓ you know as you're right. So we're interested in what happens between the child's own ears and in their own heart ⁓ and and to develop them and certainly AI can be an aid in for research or for for all sorts of things. But they what they need was lacking is discernment and the ability to check the machine or ⁓ or of someone else's claims and to be able to think for themselves. So ⁓ we're not Luddites, we're not against, you know, technology and and and its use, but we want it to be a tool that we use and we want to be able to be the humans who are in charge of it ⁓ rather than it driving us.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We we say it all the time here at the Habersham School. The one who does the thinking is the one who does the learning. And so yeah, you're cheating yourself if you just ⁓ type that calculus problem into your Google search bar. And ⁓ I'm halfway you know, part of me is like super amazed that you can do that and it and it does find the correct answer a a good bit of the time. But ⁓ it's so much better. To go run around the block yourself, right? It's so much better. Don't just look at the box with the jigsaw picture on it. Do the work of putting the pieces together yourself. You know, it it it is ⁓ you know, that is where the the ⁓ the learning happens, is when you struggle through ⁓ the puzzle. So along those lines, Hal, I want to ask you, do you have any advice for our Habersham parents as they begin a new school year? How do they make the most of a classical Christian education in the home? So like, I g I guess the question is, instead of just using AI to solve your calculus problems and actually struggling through the theorems and the steps, ⁓ how can you model that in the home? How could parents do the same thing, ⁓ kind of removing a you know, the reliance on machine and and allow their children to develop virtue and and ⁓ and discipline and skill. How can they do that in the home to partner with a a a classical Christian school?
speaker-2: I love that question. And I and I really think that back to school is a great time to think about ⁓ and I think about a reset. Like how do how do we want to reset things for this coming year? And I think that if you think about what you're what what is happening is formation of your child. Your child is forming. And so what patterns and habits in your home are gonna shape your child's thinking? and their character and their virtue and their spiritual life. And what are things that are intervening in that or habits that are that that are kind of encroaching on on some of those ⁓ goals that you have. So ⁓ I think you you could think for just a 30 seconds you probably have things in your mind what already what they are. But I think that what I I think that Technology and the phone is crowding out other activities ⁓ that are so important ⁓ for children to develop habits and so forth. So for an example, I think the greatest thing to do activity to do with your child is to read out loud. And you do it. I just did it with my twenty five year old daughter. We were just reading the wind in the willows, she was sick and we were we were just reading it for an hour at a time. It never gets old. It is never not a redemptive and edifying activity. And when your children are little, it's wonderful cuddle time to just be with them and and to spend time with them, to read great stories. And it's there's so many wonderful things that are happening when you're reading out loud with your child. You're bonding with them, there's it's relational. You're building a relationship and you're building memories around those books and those stories that you come back to. you are actually, if if you're thinking about the intellectual and the developmental side, they're developing a love for words and stories. And ⁓ just they they there's this warm feeling when you read a book together that's so pleasurable, like The Hobbit or Laura Ingle Ingleswilder the the Little House in the Prairie series or Anna Green Gables or the Lord of the Rings or C. S. Lewis, you know, the Carnicles Narnia. You you just have this warm feeling together and this associations with stories and words, and they begin to love reading in stories. And ⁓ it gives them an almost unfair advantage if they learn to love reading early on. So that is just the most no-brainer activity ⁓ that you can do. And it also you put you're putting aside the phone and other distractions and all that goes away. And you're you're just there with your child or children, you know, reading it. Now I I don't want to paint a picture of bliss and so forth because it's chaotic. We had four children. We we know ⁓ sometimes one child would be locked on and another child or two would be rolling around on the floor, running around. W I get it. I I'm not trying to say that it's idyllic all the time and so forth, but one of the some of the greatest times I had with Michael were were reading those book series together.
speaker-0: That's great. That's great. Yeah. When you talk about it, it it sounds this beautiful and wonderful. And then all of a sudden I'm picturing like Andy and Opie and Aunt B on the front porch and you know, And Andy's playing the guitar and they're singing a song and and and I start to think, that is impossible, you know.
speaker-2: It really works out that way. It really works out that way. Someone's gonna yell and there's gonna be a fire in the kitchen or there's that there's somebody ⁓ needs help in another room. But it's worth working through that.
speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. Well, and I I I read in your friends with this guy, Justin Whitmill early, in in his book Habits of the Household, ⁓ he repeatedly says in there, doing anything, doing something is better than doing nothing. So if we're convinced that it's impossible, we've already lost. But if we're willing to struggle through it with one kid, you know, like you said, rolling around on the floor with ⁓ the laundry timer still buzzing and folding clothes while you're you know, reading or or whatever it is between basketball practice and volleyball practice, like just do something and ⁓ you'll you'll start to form those memories and and build that virtue. ⁓ Hal, I can't thank you enough for for joining us today, for talking about classical Christian education. ⁓ thank you to the Wilberforce School. Karen and I got to go visit you guys back in the winter. And that's part of why we're starting this podcast is is the conversations we had with you. You've been so generous and kind and gracious to spend your time with us and allow us to come visit the campus. ⁓ so keep up the good work. ⁓ you are inspiring our community. You're inspiring us. So thank you so much for your time today.
speaker-2: Well, thanks, Clay and Brett. It's a joy to be with you. And ⁓ I will say one last thing. You mentioned ⁓ Justin early. ⁓ you know, I was over the d in the digital age and the age of distraction, there's so much to process and think about what, you know, what to do and all these books come out. Justin has read all the books and if you just save time and go he has this ⁓ website called hangton movement dot something and ⁓ If you're thinking about a reset, thinking about getting started for the school year, it's a great list to go through and ⁓ I I heartily recommend it because he's digested so much and he's lived it with his his he's got a large family as well with young with young kids. So I recommend that. But thank you for having me. It's a joy and I love ⁓ I would love to come and visit Aversham School. I appreciate what you're doing. Keep doing it and ⁓ if I can help him anyway, I'd love to ⁓ to help.
speaker-0: Yep. And you have to come visit. You told us you've never, you know, you grew up in Atlanta, but you've never visited Savannah.
speaker-2: Ever been to Savannah? Yeah, I got it so
speaker-0: You gotta come walk through Forsyth Park, white walk down River Street. We'll we'll take you to ⁓ the Shavers bookstore and ⁓ maybe even some Leopold's ice cream. Although ⁓ I don't wanna get in trouble, but I think Leopold is little overrated. The the line just a little too long for for what you get, you know, or as our principal would say the juice isn't worth the squeeze, you know. So anyway, thank you so much, Hal, and ⁓ we hope to talk to you on the podcast again sometime in the future.
speaker-2: Good to be with you, Claimbrat.
speaker-1: Thanks, Al.
speaker-0: All right. I'm so thankful that Hal was able to join us today. ⁓ Brent, what did you hear Hal talk about in regards to classical Christian education and parenting? What what's one thing that he said that inspired you?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think ⁓ he was talking a little bit about the kind of the contrast between classical Christian schools and kind of what we might call kind of modern or progressive education. ⁓ that you know, in education, especially modern progressive education, tends to follow trends, right? New trends emerge, schools go down the road with the new trend, then kind of see the faults in that trend and then try something else, right, in its place. And that classical Christian schools, because of their philosophy. ⁓ and because of that, it's rooted in this time tested tradition and in time tested content, just really kind of naturally resist following those those trends. And I think maybe, you know, I was thinking about that as a parent. Like if you're a parent of a student at a classical Christian school, maybe there is some comfort in that knowing that the school is gonna continue to do what it does and every year after year after year, right? The curriculum is gonna stay fairly stable and static because it's it's a really a timeless curriculum. It's a time-tested curriculum. It's not one that's looking for the newest trend to you right to to improve and do better what it's what it's what it's ⁓ trying to do, but instead is really leaning into a tradition ⁓ that is much older and and has much more depth and stability to it.
speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. Well, as we wrap up today, Brent, I wanted to ask you to close us in prayer, close out this first episode in pr in prayer. And we have a certain prayer. I call it our school prayer. You know, it's not the official school prayer. We don't I don't think we have anything ⁓ dubbed or or titled the official school prayer, but this is one by Thomas Aquinas that we use frequently for different different events, different things with our students. And if you would ⁓ just read that prayer for us as we close out.
speaker-1: Sure. Let us pray. Give me, O Lord, a steadfast heart, which no unworthy thought can drag down, an unconquered heart which no tribulation can wear out, an upright heart which no unworthy purpose can tempt aside. Bestow upon me understanding to know you, diligence to seek you, wisdom to find you, and faithfulness that finally may embrace you. Amen.
speaker-0: Well, thank you again, Brent, for being our very first co-host on the Dean's List. And I want to say thank you one more time to Hal Whitman and thank you to the Wilberforce School for the great work they're doing and the time that they shared with us. The Dean's List is a podcast produced by Clay Heining with content assistance from a creative team at the Howersham School. The lovely Paul Uton piano music is royalty-free through Pixabay. Graphics for the YouTube version of this podcast were created by Mary Cameron Childs. A huge thank you to Brad Warren and Michael Hester at Christ in Youth, along with Jenna Axelson at the Wilberforce School for each taking so much time to teach me about podcast process and sharing their technical expertise with me. We hope that all of you listening will like and subscribe to the Dean's List Podcast wherever you're listening. If you have any comments or questions, you can email us at podcast at the Habersham School dot org. That's podcast at the Habersham School.org. We look forward to seeing you next time on the Dean's List.
speaker-1: Thanks, Clay. It's great to be here.
speaker-0: the Dean of Students Office and you're with the Dean of Academics as well. And we're gonna have a a conversation, some pretty big questions. But before that, Brent, how was how was your summer? Did you guys get to do anything fun? Have any crazy adventures?
speaker-1: ⁓ thanks, Clay. Yeah, we did have ⁓ a good summer so far. ⁓ just ⁓ actually last week got back from a three week trip to England. Wow. ⁓ yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. We we spent the first week up in Yorkshire, ⁓ which is kind of in the north of England. ⁓ my we've been had this tradition for a good number of years now where my parents ⁓ rent a house somewhere for all of us to stay at. So it's me and Katie and our kids, and it's my younger brother and his wife and kids and my older brother and my parents. ⁓ so this year my parents wanted to they wanted to go to England. So they found a place up in Yorkshire and we we went over there and ⁓ stayed in the house for a week and we just kind of drove around ⁓ Yorkshire, visited some different sites, ⁓ and that was really a lot of fun. ⁓ and Katie and I went off and we celebrated our twentieth anniversary.
speaker-0: Congratulations on twenty years. Thank you for the
speaker-1: Yeah, we we did. We went to the Cotswolds, which is an area kind of more in the south of England, west of London, and ⁓ we did what's known as a walking holiday. Mm-hmm. Which it it's really, you know, not what we would consider a holiday 'cause you do a lot of walking. ⁓ we walked ⁓ a hundred and two miles over the course of nine days. ⁓ we we followed what's called the Cotswold Way, which is ⁓ one of the national trails in England. ⁓ It uses the kind of the existing network of footpaths and trails that are all throughout the countryside. And we walked from Chipping Camden in the north of the Cotswolds down to Bath, which is in the south of the Cotswolds. And we we stayed at ⁓ some, you know, different villages along the way, different ⁓ pubs and ⁓ B and Bs along the way. ⁓ and that was really it was strenuous, ⁓ but it really was a lot of fun. We saw a lot of beautiful country, really just a Kind of a bonding experience, honestly.
speaker-0: I bet. Yeah. That that's a little more than eleven miles a day, right? Yeah.
speaker-1: It was. We had a few days that were like fifteen. Those were very difficult days. We had some l light lighter lighter days that were like seven or eight, which were nice. Mm-hmm. ⁓ one of the one of the interesting highlights we saw along the way was we walked up on top of Cooper's Hill, which ⁓ you know, probably doesn't mean anything to most people here in the States, but Cooper's Hill is the site of the annual cheese rolling competition. It's ⁓ Yeah, so what it is, ⁓ basically
speaker-0: The cheese rolling competition.
speaker-1: bunch of people ⁓ that are kind of crazy. ⁓ they Cooper's Hill is very steep. ⁓ the average grade is about fifty percent. Okay. ⁓ so it's like a 45 degree angle up this hill. And they start at the top of the hill and they basically race to the bottom of the hill. ⁓ and they while they're racing, they're chasing a a wheel of cheese that's rolling down the hill. and whoever gets to the bottom of the hill first gets the gets the wheel of cheese is their prize.
speaker-0: Do they eat it after it's rolled on the ground?
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, they'll they'll eat it. It's all they wrap it up really well, you know, they ⁓ they package it up. Okay. So the cheese is safe. The chief the cheese actually has the safest journey down the hill because it's you know small and it rolls really well. The people, I mean, they they fall over, they they roll, they bounce, they break bones, they bruise themselves. ⁓ it's it's ⁓ it's pretty entertaining. But ⁓ actually if you're interested in the cheese rolling, you can watch ⁓ there's a little episode on a Netflix show called We Are the Champions. ⁓ And the first episode is about the cheese rolling event. ⁓ so if you're interested in that, go check that out. It's ⁓ one of those kind of unique old traditions in England that's ⁓ you know, the authorities have tried to shut down and the people just keep it going year after year after year.
speaker-0: Very interesting. We are actually recording this in the summer. It's gonna come out right before school starts. So are you already ready for school to begin?
speaker-1: ⁓ gosh. ⁓ probably not. ⁓ still some things to do. ⁓ still enjoying the slower pace of life that we enjoy in the summertime. So no, not not quite ready for s for school to start. I'm sure that would be the same way for most of our most of the folks in our school community trying to enjoy the much of the summer as they can. ⁓ but I am excited, obviously, for the start of school. Always excited to see the students return. Mm-hmm. and to see the teachers get get to work in the classroom, I'll be in the classroom myself as well. And that's always is is a r is a real energizing and life giving time to be in the classroom with students. But we also enjoy the the downtime as well.
speaker-0: All right, as we begin this school year, I would think many of you longtime parents might be asking, why are we creating a podcast? This is something new. This is something exciting. I'm pretty excited about this podcast. And here's what we're hoping to do. We want to provide more resources for our parents. We really mean it when we say we want to partner with you. And what the Habersham School does is distinct and different from progressive education. We're we're a different kind of school than. ⁓ all the ones around us. And so we want to give you resources to help understand what makes us distinct, what makes us different, what makes us special. It's also very difficult to parent well. And we want to partner with parents in that good work of parenting. So our episode today, this first episode, a couple of big questions that we want to tackle or we're going to attempt to tackle. We're going to just ask what is classical education? What is it About classical education that is different than maybe what we would expect. ⁓ it really what we want to talk about is why would parents choose classical Christian education for their family and for their children? Now, those two questions, we're gonna have a guest join us in just a little bit. ⁓ his name is Hal Whitman, and Hal is a leader of a school in Princeton, New Jersey. He's he's actually the founder and he's been the head of school there for a little over two decades. And the reason he's gonna join us is I wanted our Habersham community to hear a leader from another classical Christian school in a completely different part of the country talk about what classical education is and how it's been a blessing to his family, how it's been a blessing to his community there in in Princeton, New Jersey. But before Hal joins us, I have another monster question. And Brent, you're really here to tackle that one. So ⁓ I want to hear you talk about the Habersham. Mission statement. What is our school's mission statement? Why does the Haversham School exist? What is behind all that we're doing? Brent?
speaker-1: Yeah, well, thanks, Clay. It's a really good question. It's a big question. ⁓ and it's an important question, right? To know why we exist and and why are we here. ⁓ so our our mission statement, we can start there. ⁓ we say that we at the Habersham School exist to partner with God as his servants in seeking the restoration of his image in our students through education. ⁓ so I'll say that one more time. Our our mission is that we exist to partner with God. as his servants and seeking the restoration of his image in our students through education.
speaker-0: Wow. I think we could probably have a whole podcast series just about that mission statement, at least five or six episodes. There's so much to talk about. So let me ask you this which part of the mission statement resonates with you most? And and and maybe I should say which part of the mission statement resonates the most with you today? Cause it could be different in in different seasons of your life. And if you are a prospective parent, That's a common question we ask in our parent interviews is we'll share this mission statement and then we'll just ask the mom and dad what part of that statement is meaningful to you. So what about you, Brent? What what part of that mission statement today resonates with you?
speaker-1: Yeah, well think what what stands out to me, right, in the mission statement is ⁓ the language about ⁓ restoring the image of God in our students. ⁓ I think the any kind of educational project ⁓ is going to be motivated by what who what we think the human person is, right? Who who do we think our students are? ⁓ what is uniquely true about them ⁓ that we're here to serve, right? And so ⁓ really Every every education s has is motivated by some kind of anthropology. ⁓ and ours is motivated by the understanding that our students are image bearers of God, right? That's really w the most important thing that we have to keep in mind on a day-to-day basis is that we are here to educate image bearers of God, right? That that's what God wants for them. He wants for them to bear his image, right, in their lives, and that we exist. to come alongside the f the fleshing out, right, the development, the restoration of that image in our students. ⁓ so yeah, that that's really what sticks out to me.
speaker-0: Wonderful. ⁓ I'm gonna put in the show notes a link to an article that is on Andy Crouch's website. And Andy Crouch wrote this article a couple of years ago. ⁓ he's the author of the Techwise Family and several other important kind of culture-ish ⁓ books. this article, he titled it The Three Callings of a Christian. And he says the first calling is to bear the image of God. The second calling is to restore the image of God wherever you go. And then his third calling is the contingent calling, which he he's like, that's just your vocation or job. And he doesn't spend much time talking about that, which is ironic for our culture because we're we're in a culture that is super obsessed with what do you do for a living? If we first if we were just meeting, that would probably be one of the first questions we would ask each other is what do you do for a job? And and And we use that as a lens to try to understand who people are. And Andy Crouch makes the argument. He says, it doesn't really matter what you do as long as you get those first two callings right. So if you're ⁓ focused on bearing the image of God well, and if you're focused on wherever you go, wherever you find yourself, restoring that image of God in different places and in different people, then it really doesn't matter what you do for for a living. So in ⁓ I guess educational terms, ⁓ What I would say is our students from pre-K four, so four year olds all the way up to twelfth grade, eighteen year olds, these are human beings. And we believe that each student is a unique human created by the Lord, a a unique image bearer. They are not brains on a stick. They are not containers that we are just stuffing information into, right? They're humans. And we're working on that restorative process. We believe that education is a pathway of Christian discipleship. So we aren't just working at the Habersham School to get students into college. That isn't the main goal. But let me ask you, Brent, our students, do they still go to college?
speaker-1: Well certainly, yeah. I mean the vast majority of our students ⁓ go off to college and they the the the majority of them go off and complete, you know, four year degree programs ⁓ at colleges and universities ⁓ around the country, you know, obviously a lot in in the state of Georgia and the southeast, but really students go a a variety of places around around the country. Yeah. ⁓ you
speaker-0: Your son's about to start his second year Yeah. Right wheat.
speaker-1: That's Wheaton College, which is just outside of Chicago, ⁓ Illinois.
speaker-0: My daughter's about to start her freshman year at Barrie College, which is in North Georgia. So both excellent institutions, both graduates of the Howard from School. No problem getting in into college.
speaker-1: And and I think what you said earlier about the the three callings is really important. I mean, that really gets at what I think resonates with me about our mission. ⁓ you know, I think in a lot of educational environments today, whether it be, you know, secondary schools or or or colleges and universities, you you'll hear a lot about ⁓ you know, career readiness, right? Getting ready for the workforce, f figuring out, you know, pursuing a a degree or a path of study that's gonna prepare you for some kind of job. ⁓ and I think that says a lot about what how we think about human beings ⁓ in in our particular cultural context. I do think we we think about them primarily, maybe primarily as workers, right? People that that that work, that produce, ⁓ in in the kind of the the ⁓ the the workforce of our society. and and while work is certainly fundamental to to who we are as humans, because we mean we see that even in scripture, right? ⁓ God creates Adam and Eve. And he puts them in a garden and he he commands them to work, right? To work ⁓ the garden. ⁓ but but the but the work is motivated not simply for its own sake, right? They work because they're made in God's image and it's who he made them to be. It's part of their of of of who they are, it's part of their humanity to work. But it's not the only aspect of their humanity, right? He also made them to to worship him. He made them to to create things. and he made them to to be in relationship with each other, right? And to to love each other and to have children and and to ⁓ cultivate a family. There's lots of th ways, things that God called them to do. Work is just part of it. ⁓ and so we want to really step back and see our students as you know, all the aspects of their humanity and and and how can we as a school really work to develop Right, to restore all those aspects of their humanity, right? Their their social life, their spiritual life, their their creativity in the arts and music, right? ⁓ their their analytical abilities that we develop of course in mathematics and science. ⁓ their, you know, their their their empathy, which we often develop through the humanities, right? As you read stories about different kinds of people, you you learn a lot about the human condition. Right, about your own self, but also about other people. You become a more, you know, a more empathetic person, right? Someone who who is ⁓ sees other people, right, in in the in their situation for who they are and and wants to ⁓ come alongside them, right, to serve them. That's really what we want for our students. We really want them honestly to fulfill right the two great commandments ⁓ that that Jesus talks about, right? To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor. as yourself. If you do those two things, right, you are you're a human person, you're a human being bearing God's image. What how you do those things, what kind of vocation you pursue is is like like Andy Crouch said, a contingent contingency, right? It's just the mechanism of the place in which you flesh that out. ⁓ but it's not the only place you flesh it out, right? You you do it in all all aspects of life.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, all of those out there who are listening to this podcast, you can obviously tell why Brent Beaumont is one of our students' favorite teachers of all time. You can tell why our faculty love to have him as the Dean of Academic. So, Brent, thank you so much for sharing some of your ⁓ knowledge about our Habersham mission. And in just a few moments, we're gonna bring Hal Whitman in and we're excited to talk to him. So we'll be back in just a moment with Hal. Thank you, Brent.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: All right, we're back and I'm very excited to have our very first guest on the Dean's List podcast. I'd like to welcome Hal Whitman all the way from Princeton, New Jersey. Hal, welcome to the podcast.
speaker-2: Thank you so much for having me. As your first guest, it's a privilege.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Well well, we're excited. I want to tell our audience a little bit about who you are. You've been married to Brenda for thirty years. Congratulations. All four of your kids went to the Wilberforce School, which is the classical Christian school that you founded. You've been the head of school there for ⁓ gosh, a little over two decades, I think. In and then they all went to college. ⁓ I think three of them went to U V A. Is that right?
speaker-2: Three was UVA and one went to Washington Lee. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's that's great. All that's great. All right through
speaker-2: Wilbur Force from from kindergarten. Wow.
speaker-0: Wow. Well, you're here today. We we've invited you here ⁓ to answer some pretty big questions about classical Christian education. Before we dump jump into those questions, I have some icebreaker questions just 'cause I want our audience to get to know you a little bit more on a personal level. I wanna know, and there's no judgment here, this is just for fun, ⁓ what music Have you been listening to in the past few weeks? Maybe it's on Spotify, maybe it's on your turntable record player, maybe it's in the car. Who has your ear? ⁓ Brent, let's go with you first. What wh wh who have you been listening to? ⁓ that's
speaker-1: ⁓ you know, I haven't honestly been listening to a lot of music lately 'cause we were just traveling. ⁓ I find that I don't really listen to music ⁓ like through headphones very often. I mostly listen to music in the car and we just weren't in the car ⁓ too much. ⁓ so ⁓ but I think ⁓ while we were traveling, some of the folks in our some of the my family was getting ready to go see Hamilton ⁓ down in London. So I did listen to all of Hamilton. ⁓ through that, which was I've listened to it before, but it was interesting to hear it again. And just kind of think about the history ⁓ that comes through that. It's not my my I ideal kind of music. ⁓ I probably tend to listen to a lot more kind of like ⁓ alt country folk kind of music. ⁓ one of my one of my biggest ⁓ one of my go to's is a guy named Coulter Wall who's ⁓ he's kind of a Canadian cowboy. ⁓ sings a lot about the West and ⁓ so That would be if I decided wanted to kinda relax on an evening, that's probably what I'd put on is something like coulterwall.
speaker-0: Yeah, rap music isn't traditionally your style. ⁓ you introduced me to Gregory Ilan Alan Isaachoff not too long ago and ⁓ that's great music. Hal, what about you? What what have you been listening to?
speaker-2: Well, Brett, you're exposing my musical taste to be much less elevated than yours. I I have two things. One, when I'm paying bills or doing taxes or some some task like that, I find I need something like the B-52s or 80s One Head Wonders or classic rock, something ridiculous that sort of parallels you know, the tax code, something like that. So that that I have been indulging in a little bit in the background. ⁓ however, ⁓ more edifying in the car. ⁓ I f I love the music of Rich Mullins. ⁓ of you all this generation has discovered him, but he's a wonderful ⁓ Christian, ⁓ really f folk ⁓ singer and just his lyrics are so edifying and and I I he plays the dulcimer as well as other instruments. So I I love Rich Mullins and Heartily recommend him, not necessarily B fifty two or eighty five.
speaker-0: Well, how you're speaking my musical love language. Rich Mullins and Andrew Peterson are my two favorite singer-songwriters of all time. When I was in high school, I had the it was on CD. ⁓ it was a liturgy, a legacy, and a ragamuffin band. And I I listened to that album all the time. wore out that CD. And the interesting thing is When I was 16, 17 years old, I didn't know what liturgy meant. And ⁓ the ironic thing is I listened to it so much, I didn't know how it was shaping me. It was changing who I was, listening to that music. And it wasn't until, gosh, I was probably 40 years old when I was like, ⁓ I understand what is happening with this album, what's happening with this music. And it's so rich. I mean, his name is Rich Mullins, but it's so rich theologically, so deep, so beautiful. I just absolutely Love it. So that that's my answer all the time. If you hop in the car with me, it's gonna be Rich Mullins, Andrew Peterson, Andy Golhorn, ⁓ something like that. ⁓ you know, a few times I will listen to something like ⁓ there's this song Augustana sings about the city of Boston, and ⁓ it's just kind of like this this ballad where you roll down the windows and and sing really loudly. But most of the time I'm listening to to Rich Mullins or or Andrew Peterson. Okay, enough about Music, I want to jump into classical Christian education. How you have a story that is compelling. And I say that for a number of reasons. ⁓ one is this your educational background, your personal education background is very impressive, very fancy. you're somebody that I like to brag on, like, hey, I know somebody who's gone to these these premiere schools and and ⁓ it's it's It's just the best of the best. I would say that when you were in, you know, your younger years, you went to the premier private school in Atlanta, Georgia. And then you know, I was asking you how you chose a college and you were saying you really wanted to play football at the University of Georgia. And of course I'm a I'm a Georgia Tech grad, so I won't hold that against you, but but you you discovered, sadly, that you you probably weren't gonna make the team there between the hedges. And so you ended up at Princeton University went Ivy League and I did a little bit of research on on Princeton. It's you know started in seventeen forty six. A couple of leaders at Princeton University, John Witherspoon, who signed the Declaration of Independence. ⁓ Jonathan Edwards was the president of Princeton. We have some presidents, some United States presidents who attended Princeton, James Madison. We have a house here at the Howardson School named after James Madison, but ⁓ Woodrow Wilson Graduated from Princeton, just ⁓ kind of an amazing place. ⁓ i i I I think I saw on the website that fifty four Nobel Prize winners are connected to Princeton Universities, which is you know, just sounds ridiculous. Kinda kinda sounds outrageous. But you didn't stop just at Princeton. Your graduate degree, you went to a business school that is, I would say, the most well known business school in America, probably ⁓ you know, regarded as the best. It's it's Wharton ⁓ School of Business, which is part of ⁓ the University of of Pennsylvania. And ⁓ notable people went there, Elon Musk, Warren Buffett, all all kinds of of people. You you had the best of the best. So I want to know what happened that resulted in you starting a new school, a different kind of school, a classical Christian school in Princeton, New Jersey, which is a place already filled With lots of impressive schools, reputable schools, how how did you end up discovering classical Christian education?
speaker-2: Well, it we were young parents when we we moved back to Princeton in two thousand two and we had a three year old and a one year old and our three year old how was going to preschool, just starting to dip his big toe into the school world. And ⁓ you know, we just noticed as new parents that you could play something on the radio, a snippet of a song, maybe, you know, one of those songs. that were is more lowbrow cadet that I mentioned earlier. ⁓ and they could then repeat it back ⁓ instantly and and it was a little scary. ⁓ and you realize, wow, they are sponges. And we need to be careful actually what we what we put in front of them. ⁓ And that really made us think about school and the teachers and the materials and the approach to education and that they would have. And not just on the negative side, but the positive side, like what an opportunity when they are just taking in everything. And you could we we would read GoDog Go and they'd memorize the whole book. And you know, as as most parents, you know, discover that. What an opportunity to t to be deliberate and intentional about what we actually give them. So we started to tour schools in the area and Princeton. ⁓ similar to the university, the every kind of model of school is here. There's there's Waldorf and Quaker schools and prep schools and Montessori schools and so forth. So we we toured them all, mostly my wife, and we just we we ⁓ we developed simple criteria that we wanted we wanted great materials for them to absorb and we wanted to be thoroughly Christian in its approach to their character development ⁓ and their spiritual development. And we realized that Those two things, you can't separate them. In other words, even if you wanted to say, ⁓ let's let's just do the intellectual development, you know, eight o'clock to three, and let's do the spiritual and character development the rest of the time. You couldn't do that. It's happening together. And so ⁓ we want an integration of div of ⁓ addressing their formation, not just between the ears, their intellectual ⁓ formation, but their character formation and their spiritual formation. We wanted to be grounded in historical Christian Orthodox faith and practice. So that's what we were looking for. And it was it there just wasn't anything in this area that was doing that. And so that's how we got launched on this journey to to start a school.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I was hearing you even tell a story about your son. He was maybe five years old in kindergarten. ⁓ and I think he wa he he had already noticed that there was a difference between what you guys were doing at at church on the weekend and what he was experiencing at school during the week. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah.
speaker-2: He was at a Montessori school. I think he was four or five years old before we started the school. And he was talking to one of his buddies at school, and and he told me, he said, Patrick says we should hate our enemies. And and I said, ⁓ that's interesting. Well, ⁓ how did you get into that conversation? And he talked a little bit. I said, So were you talking to him about the Bible, how it says we should love our enemies? And how's it a response was sometimes I get my church plans and my school plans confused. And ⁓ it was such a great expression from a five-year-old, like his plans for church conversations and school conversations. And already there was this dualism. It was sort of like I we talk about these things at church and we talk about these things at school, and never the twain shall meet. These two streams. Don't meet them. It's weird if they do. And that's where we really recognize the need for integration. Like that, you're you're by by excluding this full realm of the character of spiritual life from the conversation at school, there's this myth of neutrality, but it actually is an exclusion of the the most important things of life from that conversation. So that's where we sort of always clued us into the need for integration.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. That's great. I I was hearing you also talk about ⁓ some of your studies at at Princeton. ⁓ what w w tell us what was your w what did you major in while you were there at Princeton?
speaker-2: Well, I I was in the school of public and international affairs, ⁓ public policy, essentially. And ⁓ you know, ⁓ the thing that I discovered, ⁓ I mean, I had a ⁓ an insight at the end. I I took a class ⁓ that was on international ⁓ theory, international relate theory of international relations, something like that. And and for one of our assignments, we read a chapter in this ⁓ This Greek, ancient Greek ⁓ Peloponnesian War by Thucydides. And you're reading this chapter and it's talking about the concepts that we're talking about in classic for contemporary international relations and so forth, about alliances and and and ⁓ and how nations and if ⁓ interact with each other compete. And I just thought to myself, I could have Graduated from this prestigious place with all these Nobel Prize winners without ever having read anything before 1960. ⁓ if I hadn't taken this one class. And I just thought, I would how could I have called myself educated? And I barely actually call myself educated now, because it used to be ⁓ that you really education you weren't educated unless you had actually read the grades, what was called the grades. ⁓ that were the the the great thinkers of of your discipline or just of general thinking through the ages. And what has happened is, and you know, we could talk about why, but I think that's beyond the scope of it. But like around the turn of the century in the progressive era, the the early 1900s, the the greats and the c ⁓ the the classic the the ⁓ the classical curriculum was just thrown out essentially. And that's what I experienced in my education in the seventies and eighties ⁓ was a a a contemporary only curriculum that had thrown out a lot of what was considered to be must reads.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's interesting you say that, Hal. I remember I had a somewhat similar experience when I was in seminary, actually. ⁓ know, I was studying theology and surrounded by a lot of, you know, very kind of high level intellectual people. ⁓ but a lot of the curriculum, honestly, a lot of the the books that we interacted with were fairly contemporary, you know, works of theology. ⁓ but there was a few students that I kind of became close to, one in particular, who had he wa he was he had been classically educated. you know, back be when classical education was pretty new, but he had studied under George Grant ⁓ in in Nashville, Tennessee, and received this really rich education. And the more I interacted with him, the more I realized the depth of knowledge and just of e of the breadth of ⁓ variety of texts that he had read and interacted with and that he could pull upon kind of in his thoughts and his conversations and just how it shaped him as a person and who he was. ⁓ and it it was different than everybody else, you know, that had not received that kind of education. And I was so impressed with it, so kind of in all of it, ⁓ that I went after seminary and kind of got my own classical education. I went to St. John's College and did their great books program because I had not received anything like that. I'd, you know, done my undergrad in engineering, which was a highly technical you know, enterprise with very little dabbling in the humanities. And even in seminary, you know, there was there was some discussion of, you know, these kind of ancient thinkers, but it was not, you know, what you would what you would ⁓ imagine it could have been. So ⁓ yeah, I I agree with you that there's something so rich about a classical education, the way it shapes your your you as a person, how you think, how you interact with other people. ⁓ I I was impressed with it and and kind of my eyes were opened as to the value of it.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-2: I I think it's important for parents to realize as they think about what classical Christian education is, that often there is a there is a an assumption that what is new is better. And I think that we all experience that in it with in technology. I mean that, you know, new computers, newer computers are better than older computers. And the newer technology with your dishwasher or whatever, ⁓ you know, w whatever it is, your phone. ⁓ technology improves over time and there's progress. Okay. But there's an assumption that that gets mapped over to to education or to ⁓ other things in life. And ⁓ Chris C. S. Lewis calls it chronological snobbery. ⁓ is the name he gave for it, which is that everything that's new is better than what is old. And ⁓ but we know that that God it never changes. We know that the nature of human beings as image bearers ⁓ is unchanging. And there are some truths and ⁓ that that are true from generation to generation. And so classical education is the pursuit of truth, goodness, and beauty. I think you're probably gonna ask about this later, but like di different ways of thinking about what classical Christian education is, it's time-tested learning. ⁓ It is methods and materials that have stood the test of time. And it's the best of human thought through the ages. So if you if you if you have a elevator, just condensed description of what classical Christian education is, that those would be the three best little short formulations I could come up with. Time-tested learning is the shortest. Materials and methods that have stood the test of time. Or the best of human thought through the ages that you're giving to your to your children. ⁓ and I I was thinking about this. There's this great passage in Jeremiah six, ⁓ sixteen. It says, Thus says the Lord, stand by the roads and look, ask for the ancient paths where the good way is, and walk in it and find rest for your souls. So I think that contemporary bias is towards The new and ⁓ there's certainly valuable things that are new. But I think that classical education is is trying to draw from things that are unchanging and timeless and contributions ⁓ that are let's say that we talked about like that ancient Greek philosopher talking about international relations. ⁓ contributions that have been made that have that we have stood on their shoulders to to reach. ⁓ and and so ⁓ the value of exposing students to the best of human thought.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. There's ⁓ this great little y you know, talking about how our culture just favors the new all the time. There's a Wendell Berry essay, a really short one, that he wrote in the, I want to say in the eighties or nineties. I mean, it it's kind of dated now, but the title is Why I'm Not Going to Buy a Computer. And he is resisting ⁓ the pressure to can be contemporary, you know, to move into this kind of ⁓ technological world that we're living in. And he's making an argument. ⁓ he's listing the reasons why he's never going to buy a computer. And he says that he's been told that if he were to use a computer, it would make his writing better. And and he responds and says, Will it make it better than Dante? You know, like if you can show me something written with a computer that's demonstrably better than than that, then maybe I'll use one. And he says, ⁓ he he kind of pokes fun at us. loving the new idea. He says if using a computer is a new idea, then not using a computer is an even newer idea.
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-2: Which
speaker-0: I really appreciate it ⁓ about him. I I mean, just the things you were just saying is gonna answer the question I'm about to ask you. But ⁓ you know, part of this podcast that we're doing, it's called the Dean's List. We we want it to be about classical Christian education. We want to give our parents resources to help understand what's distinct and different about what the Habersham school is doing. We also want to give them great resources on how to parent. There's so much information and misinformation out there. And we wanna ⁓ you know, in partnering with our parents, we wanna give them solid, good, good ⁓ things to think about. And so here here's the question. Why should a classical Christian education be what parents are desiring for their children, whether they live in Princeton, New Jersey, Savannah, Georgia, no matter where they are in the country or in the world, why why should a classical Christian education be what they're hoping for their children?
speaker-2: ⁓ well, th there ⁓ w one of the reasons is that there were very valuable methods and materials that were thrown out ⁓ that are worth recovering. Let me give you an example. When I was learning how to read in the seventies, there was a trend in education that was called whole language learning. And it was r really not a great way to learn how to read. And I really struggled with reading all I mean, I still struggle with reading. And the there were ⁓ the the the the that education is very trendy and and schools and school systems tend to jump on trends, partly because they're afraid of being left behind. And I think that when we started the school or in the 2000s, the iPad and the Chromebook came out, and every school is adopting Chromebooks. And what a classical school does is say, we are going to use technology selectively when it's proven to enhance instruction. We're not we're not eschewing and putting off all forms of technology all the time, but we're just saying we're not gonna jump on a a trend just because we're afraid of being left behind. We're gonna we're gonna use time tested methods of learning. So that applies to reading as well to get back to that. Phonics and phonemic awareness is just a better way to look to learn reading And a proven way to learn reading for especially for students for all students, but especially those who are struggling. So we are and just to finish the story, ⁓ with the Chromebooks, with all these schools that adopted Chromebooks, lots of them have decided not to use them anymore because they're so distracting for students. So ⁓ that is a hallmark of a classical school, is that we're going to use. time tested methods and materials and not jump on every educational trend or every ed tech trend.
speaker-0: That's great. I mean that's that's exactly exactly right. we want our students to have beautiful things and like you said, time tested things that have ⁓ existed for ages and y yeah, ⁓ it is kind of ⁓ surprising how quickly ⁓ and for whatever reason in my mind I'm picturing the people of Israel, they they have left Egypt and Moses has gone up on the mountain and how quickly they just went back to to idols. You know, they made made a golden calf. And and I I think that's technology for us in in a big way is that golden calf. We're replacing what's true and tested and proven with what is is convenient or what kind of ⁓ catches our eye or glimmers the right way.
speaker-2: Yeah, and I I will just say something about AI. I mean, I I know AI is a great tool, and I and I think all of us adults are are using it and learning how to use it and so forth. And I think that as students get older, there will there are times in their assignments and so forth where they need to learn how to use it. But w we should be clear about that the the the mere transfer of data from a computer to a pa to the to an assignment or to to your child's thinking is not constitute learning. We value students actually learning to ⁓ to independently work through a calculus problem or work through a developing a thesis and supporting c ⁓ supporting their claims in an essay. And those are important in even learning proper grammar so that they can ⁓ as colleges actually move back to blue books because they they they can't monitor cheating in ⁓ without doing that. You actually have to have your own grammar and spelling be correct ⁓ you know as you're right. So we're interested in what happens between the child's own ears and in their own heart ⁓ and and to develop them and certainly AI can be an aid in for research or for for all sorts of things. But they what they need was lacking is discernment and the ability to check the machine or ⁓ or of someone else's claims and to be able to think for themselves. So ⁓ we're not Luddites, we're not against, you know, technology and and and its use, but we want it to be a tool that we use and we want to be able to be the humans who are in charge of it ⁓ rather than it driving us.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We we say it all the time here at the Habersham School. The one who does the thinking is the one who does the learning. And so yeah, you're cheating yourself if you just ⁓ type that calculus problem into your Google search bar. And ⁓ I'm halfway you know, part of me is like super amazed that you can do that and it and it does find the correct answer a a good bit of the time. But ⁓ it's so much better. To go run around the block yourself, right? It's so much better. Don't just look at the box with the jigsaw picture on it. Do the work of putting the pieces together yourself. You know, it it it is ⁓ you know, that is where the the ⁓ the learning happens, is when you struggle through ⁓ the puzzle. So along those lines, Hal, I want to ask you, do you have any advice for our Habersham parents as they begin a new school year? How do they make the most of a classical Christian education in the home? So like, I g I guess the question is, instead of just using AI to solve your calculus problems and actually struggling through the theorems and the steps, ⁓ how can you model that in the home? How could parents do the same thing, ⁓ kind of removing a you know, the reliance on machine and and allow their children to develop virtue and and ⁓ and discipline and skill. How can they do that in the home to partner with a a a classical Christian school?
speaker-2: I love that question. And I and I really think that back to school is a great time to think about ⁓ and I think about a reset. Like how do how do we want to reset things for this coming year? And I think that if you think about what you're what what is happening is formation of your child. Your child is forming. And so what patterns and habits in your home are gonna shape your child's thinking? and their character and their virtue and their spiritual life. And what are things that are intervening in that or habits that are that that are kind of encroaching on on some of those ⁓ goals that you have. So ⁓ I think you you could think for just a 30 seconds you probably have things in your mind what already what they are. But I think that what I I think that Technology and the phone is crowding out other activities ⁓ that are so important ⁓ for children to develop habits and so forth. So for an example, I think the greatest thing to do activity to do with your child is to read out loud. And you do it. I just did it with my twenty five year old daughter. We were just reading the wind in the willows, she was sick and we were we were just reading it for an hour at a time. It never gets old. It is never not a redemptive and edifying activity. And when your children are little, it's wonderful cuddle time to just be with them and and to spend time with them, to read great stories. And it's there's so many wonderful things that are happening when you're reading out loud with your child. You're bonding with them, there's it's relational. You're building a relationship and you're building memories around those books and those stories that you come back to. you are actually, if if you're thinking about the intellectual and the developmental side, they're developing a love for words and stories. And ⁓ just they they there's this warm feeling when you read a book together that's so pleasurable, like The Hobbit or Laura Ingle Ingleswilder the the Little House in the Prairie series or Anna Green Gables or the Lord of the Rings or C. S. Lewis, you know, the Carnicles Narnia. You you just have this warm feeling together and this associations with stories and words, and they begin to love reading in stories. And ⁓ it gives them an almost unfair advantage if they learn to love reading early on. So that is just the most no-brainer activity ⁓ that you can do. And it also you put you're putting aside the phone and other distractions and all that goes away. And you're you're just there with your child or children, you know, reading it. Now I I don't want to paint a picture of bliss and so forth because it's chaotic. We had four children. We we know ⁓ sometimes one child would be locked on and another child or two would be rolling around on the floor, running around. W I get it. I I'm not trying to say that it's idyllic all the time and so forth, but one of the some of the greatest times I had with Michael were were reading those book series together.
speaker-0: That's great. That's great. Yeah. When you talk about it, it it sounds this beautiful and wonderful. And then all of a sudden I'm picturing like Andy and Opie and Aunt B on the front porch and you know, And Andy's playing the guitar and they're singing a song and and and I start to think, that is impossible, you know.
speaker-2: It really works out that way. It really works out that way. Someone's gonna yell and there's gonna be a fire in the kitchen or there's that there's somebody ⁓ needs help in another room. But it's worth working through that.
speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. Well, and I I I read in your friends with this guy, Justin Whitmill early, in in his book Habits of the Household, ⁓ he repeatedly says in there, doing anything, doing something is better than doing nothing. So if we're convinced that it's impossible, we've already lost. But if we're willing to struggle through it with one kid, you know, like you said, rolling around on the floor with ⁓ the laundry timer still buzzing and folding clothes while you're you know, reading or or whatever it is between basketball practice and volleyball practice, like just do something and ⁓ you'll you'll start to form those memories and and build that virtue. ⁓ Hal, I can't thank you enough for for joining us today, for talking about classical Christian education. ⁓ thank you to the Wilberforce School. Karen and I got to go visit you guys back in the winter. And that's part of why we're starting this podcast is is the conversations we had with you. You've been so generous and kind and gracious to spend your time with us and allow us to come visit the campus. ⁓ so keep up the good work. ⁓ you are inspiring our community. You're inspiring us. So thank you so much for your time today.
speaker-2: Well, thanks, Clay and Brett. It's a joy to be with you. And ⁓ I will say one last thing. You mentioned ⁓ Justin early. ⁓ you know, I was over the d in the digital age and the age of distraction, there's so much to process and think about what, you know, what to do and all these books come out. Justin has read all the books and if you just save time and go he has this ⁓ website called hangton movement dot something and ⁓ If you're thinking about a reset, thinking about getting started for the school year, it's a great list to go through and ⁓ I I heartily recommend it because he's digested so much and he's lived it with his his he's got a large family as well with young with young kids. So I recommend that. But thank you for having me. It's a joy and I love ⁓ I would love to come and visit Aversham School. I appreciate what you're doing. Keep doing it and ⁓ if I can help him anyway, I'd love to ⁓ to help.
speaker-0: Yep. And you have to come visit. You told us you've never, you know, you grew up in Atlanta, but you've never visited Savannah.
speaker-2: Ever been to Savannah? Yeah, I got it so
speaker-0: You gotta come walk through Forsyth Park, white walk down River Street. We'll we'll take you to ⁓ the Shavers bookstore and ⁓ maybe even some Leopold's ice cream. Although ⁓ I don't wanna get in trouble, but I think Leopold is little overrated. The the line just a little too long for for what you get, you know, or as our principal would say the juice isn't worth the squeeze, you know. So anyway, thank you so much, Hal, and ⁓ we hope to talk to you on the podcast again sometime in the future.
speaker-2: Good to be with you, Claimbrat.
speaker-1: Thanks, Al.
speaker-0: All right. I'm so thankful that Hal was able to join us today. ⁓ Brent, what did you hear Hal talk about in regards to classical Christian education and parenting? What what's one thing that he said that inspired you?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think ⁓ he was talking a little bit about the kind of the contrast between classical Christian schools and kind of what we might call kind of modern or progressive education. ⁓ that you know, in education, especially modern progressive education, tends to follow trends, right? New trends emerge, schools go down the road with the new trend, then kind of see the faults in that trend and then try something else, right, in its place. And that classical Christian schools, because of their philosophy. ⁓ and because of that, it's rooted in this time tested tradition and in time tested content, just really kind of naturally resist following those those trends. And I think maybe, you know, I was thinking about that as a parent. Like if you're a parent of a student at a classical Christian school, maybe there is some comfort in that knowing that the school is gonna continue to do what it does and every year after year after year, right? The curriculum is gonna stay fairly stable and static because it's it's a really a timeless curriculum. It's a time-tested curriculum. It's not one that's looking for the newest trend to you right to to improve and do better what it's what it's what it's ⁓ trying to do, but instead is really leaning into a tradition ⁓ that is much older and and has much more depth and stability to it.
speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. Well, as we wrap up today, Brent, I wanted to ask you to close us in prayer, close out this first episode in pr in prayer. And we have a certain prayer. I call it our school prayer. You know, it's not the official school prayer. We don't I don't think we have anything ⁓ dubbed or or titled the official school prayer, but this is one by Thomas Aquinas that we use frequently for different different events, different things with our students. And if you would ⁓ just read that prayer for us as we close out.
speaker-1: Sure. Let us pray. Give me, O Lord, a steadfast heart, which no unworthy thought can drag down, an unconquered heart which no tribulation can wear out, an upright heart which no unworthy purpose can tempt aside. Bestow upon me understanding to know you, diligence to seek you, wisdom to find you, and faithfulness that finally may embrace you. Amen.
speaker-0: Well, thank you again, Brent, for being our very first co-host on the Dean's List. And I want to say thank you one more time to Hal Whitman and thank you to the Wilberforce School for the great work they're doing and the time that they shared with us. The Dean's List is a podcast produced by Clay Heining with content assistance from a creative team at the Howersham School. The lovely Paul Uton piano music is royalty-free through Pixabay. Graphics for the YouTube version of this podcast were created by Mary Cameron Childs. A huge thank you to Brad Warren and Michael Hester at Christ in Youth, along with Jenna Axelson at the Wilberforce School for each taking so much time to teach me about podcast process and sharing their technical expertise with me. We hope that all of you listening will like and subscribe to the Dean's List Podcast wherever you're listening. If you have any comments or questions, you can email us at podcast at the Habersham School dot org. That's podcast at the Habersham School.org. We look forward to seeing you next time on the Dean's List.
