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00:00:10.240Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of the Chief Psychology Officer Podcast.
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00:00:14.080It's our 100th episode, and I cannot believe it.
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00:00:15.199I'm so excited.
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00:00:28.480Over the last few months, we've been taking a look back at some of our favourite conversations through our Best Bit series, revisiting some of the standout moments on topics including psychological safety, strengths, resilience and decision making.
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00:00:33.600But as we now reach our 100th episode, we wanted to do something a little different.
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00:00:36.560We wanted to ask a bigger question.
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00:00:49.600Considering future organisations and talent, what are the 10 most inspiring, impactful and notable stories, insights and research that we've shared across the first 99 episodes of the CPO?
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00:00:56.159We really wanted to understand what was going to make the biggest difference from all of the conversations that we've had.
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00:01:02.320So, why do they matter today and why did they matter when we first recorded them?
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00:01:07.120Over the course of this episode, we're going to revisit 10 of those previous conversations.
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00:01:10.480We're going to play a clip and then we're going to reflect on it.
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00:01:13.519I'm not doing that alone, I'm doing that with my three buddies.
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00:01:14.799I'm doing it with Angela.
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00:01:15.280Hello.
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00:01:16.319Christian.
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00:01:16.959Hello.
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00:01:17.920And Caitlin.
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00:01:18.640Hi.
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00:01:19.599Thank you guys.
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00:01:20.400Thank you for joining me.
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00:01:21.280It's been lovely.
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00:01:22.319I've had a few months off.
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00:01:25.519And so thank you very much for recording a few of the previous pods.
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00:01:27.439But I'm back and I'm back with a vengeance.
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00:01:28.400So I'm loving it.
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00:01:29.040Yay.
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00:01:29.840I'm back.
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00:01:36.560So I thought what we could do is get started with my favourite theme, which is psychological safety.
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00:01:39.439In case anyone doesn't know who I am, I haven't even introduced myself.
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00:01:39.920I'm Dr.
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00:01:40.959Mad Potter.
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00:01:42.719I am the Chief Psychology Officer.
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00:01:43.439Thank you very much.
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00:01:48.480Having done this now for four years, I didn't think I'd needed to introduce myself, but someone might be new to the pod.
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00:01:57.920Let's get started with my favourite conversation, which is psych safety, particularly because I've just finished writing the book and it's just been submitted to the publisher.
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00:01:59.359So that's super exciting.
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00:02:03.120So Caitlin, you and I spend a lot of time talking about psych safety.
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00:02:03.840We do.
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00:02:08.000And you particularly focused on these themes for us, didn't you?
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00:02:08.960I did, yeah.
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00:02:14.159So I've got a couple of snippets from some of our favourite podcasts to share with you today.
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00:02:20.800The first one is actually from episode 38, and it's all about how to create a psychologically safe environment.
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00:02:22.719Because I think that's probably a good place to start.
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00:02:23.439Amazing.
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00:02:24.319Thank you, Caitlin.
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00:02:29.680So this is episode 38, how to create a psychologically safe environment.
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00:02:34.960I'm wondering, you know, what practices then do you put into place to help clients?
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00:02:38.960So we're working with a major global luxury brand at the moment.
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00:02:42.159They're rolling out psychological safety across the organization.
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00:02:48.960And what we're trying to do with them is build a suite of actions through a playbook that they can take.
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00:02:58.560So no matter what the psychological safety of one of their teams around the world, wherever it's high and low, they can turn to this playbook and they can tackle it in four ways.
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00:03:01.280They can tackle it in terms of a macro lens.
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00:03:11.120So do the policies and the processes, the standards of communication, the leadership models, the values, do they all drive an environment of psychological safety?
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00:03:12.960So that's the first one about macro.
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00:03:15.120The second one is micro.
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00:03:18.719Do they have good team meeting etiquette, for example?
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00:03:21.120How do the communications start?
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00:03:23.039How do they introduce new ideas?
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00:03:25.120So they're the micro things that could change.
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00:03:27.039They seem really straightforward.
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00:03:29.120Um, what about example resources?
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00:03:32.400Yeah, so example resources is the third one, actually.
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00:03:45.199So for that client, what we're doing is we're pulling together podcasts, white papers, all sorts of research that help people to increase the level of psychological safety in organizations, books, everything.
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00:03:52.479So the third part of that playbook is resources, and the fourth is much more targeted around the results of the questionnaire.
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00:04:14.080So for each of the 10 scales of the psychological safety questionnaire, we have identified three targeted development actions, if you like, or suggestions for teams and individuals to improve their level of psychological safety and their very practical exercises or activities rather than resources or things to read and do.
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00:04:17.040So, Caitlin, why did you pick that clip?
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00:04:28.560I think a lot of the conversations we've been having, well, over the last few years, but particularly recently with clients is around what can we actually do after we've been educated around psychological safety.
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00:04:37.360So I think there's been a bit of an evolution around when we first started talking about it, organizations were wanting to get on the same page about how do we define it, what does it look like?
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00:04:42.319But now I think it's really about okay, well, now we're left to our own devices, what can we actually do?
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00:04:47.199And I think the playbook is a really good example of making it very actionable.
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00:04:49.040So that was the reason I chose it.
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00:04:52.079I don't know if you're finding the same thing, Amanda, in your conversations.
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00:04:53.040Do you know what?
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00:05:02.319I love that you chose that clip actually, because one of the things that happens when teams feel unsafe is that they follow orders and they do what they're told.
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00:05:07.600And we talk about that concept of functional stupidity that when bright people stop thinking for themselves.
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00:05:12.560And when we stop thinking for ourselves, we're not able to think creatively about so how do I solve it?
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00:05:16.399How do I solve this situation, this problem I've got myself into?
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00:05:19.439And we're working with another client, because this clip was from a couple of years ago.
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00:05:24.959We're still working with that client very luckily, but we're working with another client who are a financial services organization.
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00:05:32.560We're working with the GEC minus one, so very senior leaders, yet they want to be told, what do I do?
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00:05:41.120So you've explained to me how I feel through the diagnostic, you've helped me understand how I feel, but they still want showing and telling what to do.
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00:05:43.920And it's all about embedding really good habit.
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00:05:46.480So I agree, the playbook is one tool.
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00:05:53.439The reports also have those amazing development actions in there as suggestions for conversation to elicit ideas.
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00:06:10.800But fundamentally, the thing I've noticed that makes the biggest difference with psychological safety is the conversation that happens either in the workshop or one-to-one as a result of the diagnostic, where we help people to think about new habits and commit to the embedding of those new habits over a long period.
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00:06:13.600So it's both the what and it's also the how.
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00:06:15.120The how is so fundamental.
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00:06:32.480I wonder, Amanda, if this conversation is coming up now so much more because technology is really like even since we recorded that episode, it's shifted so fast that actually those micro behaviors, the habits, the way we form those habits is changing as well.
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00:06:36.399So the micro behaviors we would have suggested a couple of years ago, what do you think?
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00:06:37.279Are they changing?
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00:06:44.720No, I think actually, even though I agree about the point about technology and the world work, it's massively changed in the four years since we started the pod.
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00:06:47.839Actually, it's the very simple things they're still asking for.
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00:06:59.120So one of the leaders, for example, was doing a town hall and asked the HR representative, our client, for the language that they should use to go to that town hall and it's talk about psychological safety.
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00:07:06.480They didn't, for example, feel comfortable to go on to chat and research what psychological safety is or to read our materials.
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00:07:08.000They still wanted to be told.
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00:07:13.439And it's that not wanting to get it wrong, is really the essence of poor psychological safety.
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00:07:23.839So therefore, it takes obviously courage and conviction to do something different, but it is about helping people understand what habits need to go and be put into place in order to drive different behaviours.
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00:07:31.920I would say that going back to what we were saying earlier, is I think we'd all love it if you go to a workshop or one team session and that's kind of the sticking point.
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00:07:35.600But I think the reality is that that's not how behaviour change works.
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00:07:43.439I think what we've learned through psychological safety is that it isn't built through one big moment, it's through kind of hundreds of thousands of small ones, which is that habit piece.
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00:07:44.079True.
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00:07:44.560Yes.
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00:07:50.720I think that's a really important point, which is psychological safety is not a single brush change.
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00:07:56.160It is through every member of a team or an organization making small incremental changes.
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00:07:57.839And we love the word habit.
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00:07:58.879So what's next?
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00:08:00.160What's our second clip?
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00:08:20.480Our next clip is from episode 35, where we have Martin Bromley, who is the founder, chair, and trustee of the Clinical Human Factors Group, where their mission is really to show a better understanding of the role of human factors and how the impact it can have on safety, quality, and productivity, particularly in healthcare, but also beyond.
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00:08:25.439So in the clip, he really talks about this concept of a just organisation.
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00:08:29.040This is episode 35 with Martin Bromney.
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00:08:34.080It's normally a small number of errors, of what I call micro errors.
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00:08:37.440It's about seven actually on average, we found in aviation and surgery.
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00:08:42.159Seven small errors lined up can deliver a disaster of some sort.
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00:08:50.639So a just organisation then has a look when something goes wrong and tries to understand the nature of what happened.
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00:08:57.120And it tries to look at the system, not the individual, to understand why it made sense at the time.
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00:09:11.279So when something has gone wrong, and think about this in any organization, whether it's ERCON or whether it's an organisation that's one of your clients, when something goes wrong, just taking a moment to think, right, okay, what's this inadvertent human error?
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00:09:13.200What's the person doing their best?
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00:09:19.039And if it was inadvertent human error, then I would argue that that person probably needs support.
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00:09:24.960Once you've rectified whatever the issue is, that person then probably needs help to learn from what happened.
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00:09:28.320And you as an organization need to learn from what has happened.
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00:09:41.120Don't get me wrong, if that individual behaved in a way which really was grossly negligent or even was in some way deliberate, in other words, some form of sabotage, that's a completely different thing altogether.
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00:09:47.759That's so interesting, the difference between small human errors versus gross negligence.
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00:09:51.120And that's not what we're talking about here with psychological safety.
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00:09:58.720We're not talking about people who are actively trying to ruin organizations or break teams or people.
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00:10:13.200We're talking about actually good people, good managers, good leaders who want to do the best they can, but hold back from speaking up when they see an error or see a mistake or fail to report that something isn't working.
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00:10:31.200And it's very much like one of our clients who I won't name for obvious reasons that had identified an error with one of their pieces of kit and had to then pull that kit from the market, and it resulted in hundreds of millions of loss and cost for that organization.
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00:10:38.159And that was because people didn't feel safe enough to speak up and openly talk about the mistakes that were being made.
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00:10:45.200Yet those individuals are hardworking, committed, loyal employees who believe in the mission of that organization.
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00:11:02.399And Martin, for those people who don't know, haven't listened to that episode, he lost his wife during routine surgery down to those the catalogue of human error, but also a lack of communication and the more senior people not listening to the more junior who are spotting the issues that were happening through that routine surgery.
00:11:02.720 -->
00:11:04.320I think the episode's a really good one.
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00:11:09.600He shares a few different stories, which I think are quite powerful, including obviously the one you've just mentioned, Amanda.
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00:11:15.519But what resonated with me was kind of the mindset behind some of the things he was talking about.
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00:11:25.200Because when he was talking about when people make errors, he was reflecting on how it's rather than asking, you know, who can we blame, he's saying, you know, how did the system allow this to happen?
00:11:25.360 -->
00:11:27.840So there's really that focus on the system at play.
00:11:28.000 -->
00:11:31.519And I think there's a lot of power in that because it's curious rather than judgmental.
00:11:31.679 -->
00:11:37.679And we talk a lot about curiosity because when something goes wrong, our instinct can usually be to look for a person.
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00:11:42.240You know, we want a clear cause, potentially some people might want to hold someone accountable.
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00:11:48.639But obviously, in a complex organization, failures are rarely with the result of one person, it's an accumulation of things.
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00:11:54.720And there's usually a chain of small decisions or assumptions, pressures, environmental factors, all sorts that line up.
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00:11:57.360And I think the message there is it's not intentional.
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00:11:58.879You know what it reminds me of?
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00:12:04.240Very recently, I think last week, I had a conversation with a friend who works in shipping operations.
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00:12:07.120She works for a major ship owner and operator.
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00:12:18.799She was saying to me that when she is investigating why something has gone wrong, she refuses to stop at just human error because it can't just come down to one person making a mistake.
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00:12:21.120Like, why did they make that mistake in the first place?
00:12:21.360 -->
00:12:28.000So, again, this focus on why did the system allow that to happen and how can we support that person moving forward.
00:12:28.320 -->
00:12:33.360There's one other thing actually I wanted to mention because I think about how can this be even more relevant today?
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00:12:35.519And we were talking about AI.
00:12:35.679 -->
00:12:39.279You know, how does AI become part of organizational decision making?
00:12:39.440 -->
00:12:49.759I know we're having a lot of conversations about it internally, and obviously we're in a lot of organizations are increasingly relying on it to support recruitment, healthcare, financial services, almost every industry.
00:12:49.919 -->
00:12:51.919And inevitably, mistakes will happen.
00:12:52.080 -->
00:12:55.679And so people might have that same instinct to find someone to blame.
00:12:55.759 -->
00:12:57.679Like, was it the person who clicked the button?
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00:12:58.799Was it the developer?
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00:13:04.000You know, but Martin's lesson reminds us that those aren't the most useful questions.
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00:13:07.279The better question is how did the whole system allow that outcome?
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00:13:10.320So, what assumptions did we build into the AI?
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00:13:12.159What safeguards were missing?
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00:13:17.440Where did we become over reliant on trusting this bit of information that we read on AI?
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00:13:22.000So I think it's something maybe people can be thinking about and take away from this episode.
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00:13:26.559And interesting that the research is we're more likely to trust AI than human judgment.
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00:13:28.080Isn't it very interesting?
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00:13:29.440So, what's next?
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00:13:34.799Our next episode, we're actually spoiled because we have another snippet from another podcast guest.
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00:13:46.159This time it's Professor Adrian Furnum in episode 89, where he speaks about his experience with psychological safety and how people show up can impact psychological safety.
00:13:46.399 -->
00:13:52.320This is episode 89, The Real Science of Psychological Safety with Professor Adrian Vernum.
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00:14:00.000So if I do not feel very safe, do I feel safe enough to say I don't feel I'm very safe?
00:14:00.240 -->
00:14:04.240In other words, the reporting, the questionnaire I'm sending.
00:14:04.399 -->
00:14:14.799Now it's not quite the same as saying I think my boss is an idiot, but do I feel confident enough to report that I am worried about speaking up in groups and so forth?
00:14:14.960 -->
00:14:16.159And that's an issue.
00:14:16.320 -->
00:14:25.519My feeling is by and large, that's not such a big problem, although there will be those in certain environments who think that you know only wimps feel unsafe.
00:14:25.679 -->
00:14:32.080I've worked in, you know, tough guy environments where only wimps complain and only wimps feel they don't say.
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00:14:34.080You speak up and you and so forth.
00:14:34.240 -->
00:14:36.879That's a very particular type of environment.
00:14:37.039 -->
00:14:38.320It can work, you know.
00:14:38.639 -->
00:14:41.200I find it in the financial industry quite a lot.
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00:14:54.720It can work quite well, but I'm interested in the extent to which people can feel confident in saying they don't feel confident in speaking up and challenging people and coming up with their interesting ideas.
00:14:55.120 -->
00:15:22.320Because over time, you and I have recognized this many times, you'll find somebody in an organization in a rather lowly position who's got amazing insight and amazing contributions to make, but they've never been really asked, they've never been really challenged, and they felt overlooked, not so much unsafe, but overlooked, that they don't feel speaking up is there is what they should be doing, and they feel they'll be put down or so forth.
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00:15:38.559And as I say, it's nearly always people quite lowly in organizations who've been there a long time, who really understand what's going on, and the idea of them giving some insight into the process they see, I think that's terribly important.
00:15:38.720 -->
00:15:41.519You can get it through the psychological safety measure.
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00:15:54.000What a fabulous thing to have got Professor Adrian Furnum on the pod, and also how amazing that he also supported us with our research in validating the tool and getting it to the really high standard that it is now.
00:15:54.159 -->
00:16:01.039He was my PhD examiner, so he's somebody I truly believe in as a researcher and a professor.
00:16:01.360 -->
00:16:03.600Christian, what did you think of that clip?
00:16:04.000 -->
00:16:12.799I think it resonated with me because it's what I see very often in the teams and organizations I'm currently working with.
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00:16:30.480For me, the risks of a team or an organization not embedding psychological safety or encouraging it as a climate is not only just that you miss the risks and you have an environment where people are not challenging or not innovating or being creative or speaking up.
00:16:30.559 -->
00:16:32.879And of course, that is one of the key risks there.
00:16:33.039 -->
00:16:40.799But it's also um a risk of those ideas that intelligence and creativity just never being seen, never being heard.
00:16:40.960 -->
00:16:43.840And so there's that opportunity cost that's lost.
00:16:44.000 -->
00:16:56.159If you don't have psychological safety, you're missing out on your team's best ideas, particularly from those people who might not be the most extrovert or the most bold, but have some really important ideas to share.
00:16:56.480 -->
00:17:10.160I think your point is a good one, but I think what Adrian's also saying is that is that unheard voices, isn't it, very often, that we are missing out on because it's hard to canvas their opinion to get them to speak up.
00:17:10.480 -->
00:17:16.240That's why a tool like a diagnostic is a great starting point for getting those views and opinions.
00:17:16.480 -->
00:17:20.880Because there, you're right, Christian, some of the best ideas may be at that level.
00:17:21.039 -->
00:17:25.279They don't necessarily have to be at the higher levels of the organization or the most experienced levels.
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00:17:33.599If you think about cognitive diversity, bringing in new talent, new ideas, and also a new way of thinking into the organization is so fabulous.
00:17:33.680 -->
00:17:36.880So let's just make sure we listen to them and talk to them.
00:17:37.119 -->
00:17:38.400And so that was a great clip.
00:17:38.480 -->
00:17:39.279Thank you, Caitlin.
00:17:39.759 -->
00:17:41.519So whose clip is next?
00:17:41.839 -->
00:17:43.200It's my clip, Amanda.
00:17:43.359 -->
00:17:53.759And even though we didn't talk specifically about psychological safety this time, one key theme running through our podcasts over the years is the topic of connection or the quality connections.
00:17:53.839 -->
00:17:56.240And of course, that relates to psychological safety.
00:17:56.400 -->
00:17:57.599So I really like this one.
00:17:57.759 -->
00:18:00.319It was um we had John Cooper on the pod.
00:18:00.480 -->
00:18:04.000John is a highly experienced business psychologist that I know you know.
00:18:04.079 -->
00:18:10.799And John's been really active in working with senior leaders, with teams on emotional intelligence.
00:18:10.880 -->
00:18:21.680And so in this clip, he talks about the importance of connection and how it's related to uh tangible objectives like performance, innovation, and results as well.
00:18:21.920 -->
00:18:25.599So this episode was 94 connection intelligence.
00:18:26.480 -->
00:18:58.240And really, the predicate for the research we've been doing was the Schutz FIRO, and latterly the human element, expanded FIRO theory, which in essence showed through evidence-based research, really, particularly in the military, that when you get compatibility in terms of behaviour and feelings amongst teams, then you get about 25% higher performance output from those teams than teams who have low compatibility interpersonally.
00:18:58.480 -->
00:19:09.599So that compatibility performance effect or connection performance effect is essentially saying it's not about the capability, the intelligence, the personality.
00:19:09.839 -->
00:19:18.160This is about the chemistry, the connections between people to work together and build something bigger than the sum of its parts.
00:19:18.319 -->
00:19:22.079And so that's the exam question for me is how do we grab hold of that?
00:19:22.319 -->
00:19:30.160Because not only is it about performance, it's also about feeling good, feeling human, feeling part of something and feeling healthy.
00:19:30.319 -->
00:19:37.200It's extraordinary, really, as you look at some of the recent science around social prescription, for example.
00:19:37.440 -->
00:19:48.480It turns out connecting with your neighbours, being part of local organizations that are doing good is a much better way to manage your health.
00:19:48.640 -->
00:19:55.599In other words, connecting with people is really good for your state, for your hormones, for your immune system.
00:19:56.000 -->
00:19:58.240And the opposite is also true.
00:19:58.400 -->
00:20:06.720The science shows that people die younger if they're disconnected and their health problems escalate if they don't have human connection in their lives.
00:20:07.119 -->
00:20:09.359What a fabulous clip, Christian.
00:20:09.519 -->
00:20:11.680And I couldn't agree more with John.
00:20:11.920 -->
00:20:19.759John, I've known for over 20 years as a fellow entrepreneur and psychometrician, and he is, as you said, an emotional intelligence expert.
00:20:19.920 -->
00:20:25.839But I love that he's moving into human connection because we also talk about human connection as the foundation of psychological safety.
00:20:26.000 -->
00:20:41.039And funnily enough, the first chapters of the book that I've just finished writing and will be published in April next year are trust and belonging, which is all about the foundation of creating human connection because with that it makes all the difference, doesn't it?
00:20:41.119 -->
00:20:45.519If you work with people who you feel like you trust and you feel like you belong with, it's amazing.
00:20:45.759 -->
00:20:46.240Absolutely.
00:20:46.319 -->
00:20:47.519Yeah, I really like this one.
00:20:47.680 -->
00:20:57.599I think the message was strong, and it left me with a message that I suppose it's the quality of those connections that we have with people, and that can be the key to success.
00:20:57.759 -->
00:21:01.759The thing that also jumped out at me was that stat that John shared.
00:21:01.920 -->
00:21:08.880And that's that 25% gap between teams with high compatibility, you said, and then low compatibility.
00:21:08.960 -->
00:21:19.200So I'll be interested in your take on that, considering that we often talk about psychological safety and trust being not just about feeling comfortable, but actually being able to challenge.
00:21:19.359 -->
00:21:29.039But for me, when he mentions the compatibility, it doesn't necessarily mean we're all think the same, agree with the same thing, or have the same decision styles.
00:21:29.279 -->
00:21:37.440But despite our differences, there's that mutual respect and the synergy between people that creates is the recipe for success.
00:21:37.599 -->
00:21:39.599So that was the message I got from that one.
00:21:39.920 -->
00:21:40.720That's a great point.
00:21:40.880 -->
00:21:52.480And interestingly, I ran a workshop a couple of weeks ago with a client where someone said that they had actively tried to create a cognitively diverse team and it was a nightmare because nobody would agree with one another.
00:21:52.559 -->
00:21:58.400And as a result, the conversations were going round and round circles, and so now he hires more homogeneous teams.
00:21:58.480 -->
00:21:59.759I was thinking, what a shame that he's.
00:22:00.160 -->
00:22:02.559Gone through that path and didn't stick with it.
00:22:02.720 -->
00:22:06.799And he did admit actually the ideas that came from that heterogeneous team were much better.
00:22:06.880 -->
00:22:11.119But he said they were a nightmare to manage because they were going off in different directions all the time.
00:22:11.359 -->
00:22:21.599And the point is, you need really strong leadership to manage really disperse teams in order to make them compatible, to use John's language, despite their differences.
00:22:22.079 -->
00:22:24.799And purpose is one of those ways, of course.
00:22:25.200 -->
00:22:35.039All being really clear of why we exist, what our roles are, and how us thinking and operating differently complements rather than contradicts or competes with one another.
00:22:35.279 -->
00:22:42.160So it comes all down to that communication being absolutely fundamental around psychological safety, but particularly around high performance too.
00:22:42.319 -->
00:22:42.880That was great.
00:22:42.960 -->
00:22:43.680Thank you, Christian.
00:22:43.759 -->
00:22:44.400What's next?
00:22:44.799 -->
00:22:51.519So quite aligned to the theme of connection and what we've just been talking about in terms of cognitive diversity.
00:22:51.759 -->
00:22:54.319This next episode is about strengths.
00:22:54.559 -->
00:22:57.759The episode is all the way back to episode 25.
00:22:58.079 -->
00:23:00.079Creating a strengths culture.
00:23:00.480 -->
00:23:03.920With any culture, diversity is going to play a huge role.
00:23:04.160 -->
00:23:06.559You mentioned cognitive diversity earlier.
00:23:06.720 -->
00:23:09.119We tend to talk about that a lot in this podcast.
00:23:09.359 -->
00:23:10.240We do, yeah.
00:23:10.559 -->
00:23:14.400But can you remind us what it means and how it relates to strengths?
00:23:14.720 -->
00:23:24.079Cognitive diversity is the way people think, their perspectives, their heuristics, the mental shortcuts, in other words, that they might make, and their thinking styles.
00:23:24.240 -->
00:23:32.319And in particular, we as an organization assess cognitive diversity using two of our products, which are strengths and decision styles.
00:23:32.480 -->
00:23:46.079And cognitive diversity is different from demographic diversity, where demographic diversity is often quite obvious, cognitive diversity is much more difficult to observe or identify in people.
00:23:46.400 -->
00:23:49.359And cognitive diversity can include strengths.
00:23:49.680 -->
00:23:52.160Why is cognitive diversity important?
00:23:52.799 -->
00:24:15.759Without it, we are at risk, as Matthew Saeed says, of a homogeneous or homophily culture, which has a significant impact on organizations because of the risk of groupthink, consensus-driven culture, deferring to leadership, lack of creativity, and a number of unconscious biases that can come in when we see low cognitive diversity.
00:24:16.880 -->
00:24:17.759Great episode.
00:24:18.000 -->
00:24:22.000How funny that we were just talking about cognitive diversity as we led into that clip.
00:24:22.160 -->
00:24:22.640Yeah, right.
00:24:22.880 -->
00:24:23.839That's so interesting.
00:24:24.160 -->
00:24:28.559Basically having the same conversation, it's saying, but I think our conversation has enhanced.
00:24:28.720 -->
00:24:35.119I know my research and thinking has definitely enhanced to be much more about being courageous and being brave as well within teams.
00:24:35.200 -->
00:24:41.279So with that psychological safety, with that cognitive diversity, as Angela just said, you do need courage too.
00:24:41.440 -->
00:24:43.599You need something else and you need resilience.
00:24:43.680 -->
00:24:47.279There's so many things actually within a team you need to really drive that high performance.
00:24:47.519 -->
00:24:48.960It's all connected as well, isn't it?
00:24:49.119 -->
00:24:50.079As you were saying earlier.
00:24:50.480 -->
00:24:52.079Amanda, it slipped from my mind.
00:24:52.160 -->
00:24:57.279I've been trying to remember what is it Matthew Saeed calls the group of homogeneous uh clones.
00:24:57.680 -->
00:24:58.640Yes, that's it.
00:24:58.799 -->
00:24:59.839What does he say exactly?
00:25:00.079 -->
00:25:02.640He talks about them intelligent clones, doesn't he?
00:25:02.880 -->
00:25:04.319Yes, and that is an issue, isn't it?
00:25:04.480 -->
00:25:15.359Of course, if you were to recruit from only Russell group universities, for example, from a single cohort, you're going to actually recruit people who have been taught to think similarly to one another.
00:25:15.519 -->
00:25:19.200So the idea is for in every way recruit diversity.
00:25:19.519 -->
00:25:31.279I think there's something around deferral to leadership that I feel like is quite important as well, which is you can have a lot of diversity in the room without potentially having diversity influencing the decision.
00:25:31.519 -->
00:25:39.920So how can leaders ensure that the diversity in the room actually feeds up into the final decision-making process?
00:25:40.240 -->
00:25:41.279Wow, that's a great point.
00:25:41.359 -->
00:25:45.839And that comes down to our women in the boardroom research, which it's all about that true listening.
00:25:46.079 -->
00:25:48.799Because yes, we might give everyone airtime.
00:25:48.880 -->
00:25:54.480So Christian, Angela, Caitlin, I'm going to ask your opinion, but then I'm going to completely ignore all of you and do whatever I wanted anyway.
00:25:54.720 -->
00:25:55.759So it's lip service.
00:25:55.839 -->
00:25:57.440So it's the opposite to lip service.
00:25:57.599 -->
00:26:01.039It's truly being invested and interested in the opinions of the team.
00:26:01.200 -->
00:26:18.960And when we did that women in the boardroom research to looking at some of the most successful female C-suite leaders in our country, they said the reason for their success was firstly mentorship, but secondly, was that they had a voice and their voice was listened to and considered and their opinion was believed to be important.
00:26:19.359 -->
00:26:20.480That's so important, actually.
00:26:21.039 -->
00:26:29.200Speaking of genuinely listening and cognitive diversity, I think that leads really nicely into the next clip that I've selected for this conversation.
00:26:29.599 -->
00:26:30.400Very nice.
00:26:30.960 -->
00:26:34.880Which is episode 50, The Value of Diversity and Decision Making.
00:26:34.960 -->
00:26:36.559So let's play and then we'll talk.
00:26:37.440 -->
00:26:56.319So cognitive diversity comes from bringing people who are demographically diverse together and making sure that population includes people who are truly different from one another, both in terms of their identity, so their age, gender, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, et cetera, and also how they approach their decisions.
00:26:56.640 -->
00:27:18.720You've actually made me think with that age differences examples about the uptake in organizations around reverse mentorship and how historically in organizations, mentorship you might be led to believe would come from someone more senior and potentially older would be mentoring someone who is newer and younger within the business.
00:27:18.960 -->
00:27:25.920But actually nowadays, the research out there saying that reverse mentorship and actually there's a lot to learn the other way around.
00:27:26.000 -->
00:27:38.960And I've actually worked with organizations with senior leaders who have actually overtly told me their experience of reverse mentorship and how they love how their younger colleague has come in and really challenges their thinking.
00:27:39.119 -->
00:27:41.680And this is a high potential employee who is telling me this.
00:27:41.839 -->
00:27:42.960Yeah, I think great.
00:27:43.279 -->
00:27:44.799It's a really good point, actually.
00:27:44.960 -->
00:27:46.960And the other one is shadow boards too.
00:27:47.279 -->
00:28:10.799Shadow boards are when you bring a population of more junior colleagues who are often younger and haven't got as many years experience together to solve or to debate a problem that the existing board, who are often older, have greater years of longevity in the organization, are trying to solve so that you can compare the two solutions.
00:28:11.039 -->
00:28:28.319And I think that's a really good point, actually, around cognitive diversity, and particularly within decision making, that we really do need to make sure that we bring together a very inclusive population of people who are prepared to ask questions and listen to one another, but who come from very different walks of life.
00:28:28.400 -->
00:28:31.440And so therefore we'll have a very different perspective on the problem.
00:28:31.839 -->
00:28:34.799What I love about that is the practicalness of it, right?
00:28:34.960 -->
00:28:45.759There are two great ideas already on how to get that cognitive diversity and also to answer that question of how do you feed that diversity into influencing the decisions.
00:28:46.000 -->
00:28:47.200I love the shadow board idea.
00:28:47.279 -->
00:28:49.839I've not actually thought of that in such a long time.
00:28:50.000 -->
00:28:55.839So yeah, thanks for replaying that because I'm going to steal that and I think I'm going to talk to some more clients about it.
00:28:56.160 -->
00:28:57.200It's great, isn't it?
00:28:57.359 -->
00:29:23.599It really is, because the ideas that come from Shadow Balls are so different to the ideas that come from the traditional senior experienced board members who have seen it done it many times and therefore have quite often a tarnished view of the world or tarnished view of what would work and may not be as open to alternatives or to trying things that have already been tried because they may actually work now.
00:29:23.839 -->
00:29:24.160Yeah.
00:29:24.400 -->
00:29:40.000It'd also be so interesting to sit in that room, or say you set up the kind of you know, older generation to have that debate, and then you have the shadow board, the younger generation, if you were a fly on the wall or if you're just an observer in our case, it'd be so interesting to see the dynamics at play and how that's different.
00:29:40.400 -->
00:29:41.359Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:41.440 -->
00:29:41.680Yeah.
00:29:41.759 -->
00:29:42.400Oh gosh.
00:29:42.640 -->
00:29:55.119And having worked with teams at all levels, whilst certain people have certain characteristics, if you think about extroverts versus introverts, actually the dynamism is different in different groups.
00:29:55.440 -->
00:30:04.240One thing that I was thinking about as I was mulling over then versus now is that there are only really a handful of AI models.
00:30:04.480 -->
00:30:09.519Everyone's increasingly using AI to influence how their work is done.
00:30:09.759 -->
00:30:20.480Do you think, Amanda, there's a risk that AI could inadvertently reduce the cognitive diversity just because everyone's drawing on those same models?
00:30:20.799 -->
00:30:21.680That's so interesting.
00:30:21.839 -->
00:30:31.440We're actually doing a piece, I'm not going to answer the question because I haven't thought about it sufficiently, but I am going to say a piece of research we're about to embark with one of our clients who's a fab client.
00:30:31.599 -->
00:30:38.799We're looking at the impact of AI on human judgment, because I think my belief is human judgment is the next big thing.
00:30:38.960 -->
00:30:53.839For us, psychological safety is the big thing, but I think the next big thing is going to be human judgment because our reliance on AI and our belief in AI means that we go to the technology a lot to ask it the questions and give us the short list.
00:30:54.000 -->
00:30:59.839And therefore, we're losing the ability to analyze, reason, research, and debate with ourselves.
00:30:59.920 -->
00:31:05.599What we're doing is we're getting to a short list and then we're coming up with the conclusion, we're making a single judgment.
00:31:05.759 -->
00:31:10.319But what's happening is we're becoming more apparent in our style of decision making.
00:31:10.400 -->
00:31:20.559So we're just taking information in front of us and we're not questioning it, we're not challenging it, we're not debating it sufficiently in the way we used to.
00:31:20.799 -->
00:31:31.680We're just being fed in the same way as when I was on the pod with Simon from Vodafone talking about AI, and I had this vision of the future of everyone running around with tiny pinheads because our brains are shrunk.
00:31:32.000 -->
00:31:33.440I remember that conversation.
00:31:33.680 -->
00:31:54.720Yeah, I do think that there is a concern, which, if we think about human judgment and the idea around intuition having a big impact because of neuroplasticity, when we have to make a decision, what happens is a lot of it comes down to previous decisions that we've made and the neural connections and neural pathways that are in the brain from neuroplasticity.
00:31:54.960 -->
00:32:00.960What happens is we go back there and we access it to understand when I made that decision before, what happened.
00:32:01.119 -->
00:32:04.880And that gives us that sense of instinct, that sense of belief.
00:32:05.039 -->
00:32:08.720You know, I know what to do, I've been here before, I can make that decision.
00:32:08.880 -->
00:32:11.920I'm able to be decisive as a result.
00:32:12.079 -->
00:32:13.599I can commit to that decision.
00:32:13.839 -->
00:32:29.359Yet if we rely on technology, on AI to make decisions for us, what's the best solution for this, we're going to lose that neuroplasticity, we're going to lose those neuroconnections, and we're going to give that to AI, we're going to give that honor to the technology.
00:32:29.519 -->
00:32:31.519And I believe the impact will be our belief.
00:32:31.599 -->
00:32:36.240The impact will be our sense of confidence and ownership, in other words, imposter syndrome.
00:32:36.400 -->
00:32:36.720Yeah.
00:32:36.960 -->
00:32:57.599If we overly rely, I know it's a long answer, but if we overly rely on technology to do our thinking, to make our decisions, to identify the best solution, we're going to diminish our neuroplasticity, we're going to diminish the ability to create those neural pathways so that when we are faced with challenges outside in the real world where we can't go to AI and say, what's the answer?
00:32:57.759 -->
00:32:59.119We're going to question ourselves.
00:32:59.200 -->
00:33:00.319We're going to lack belief.
00:33:00.400 -->
00:33:04.240We're going to believe we're imposters because we're not going to be able to get there.
00:33:04.400 -->
00:33:15.920And it comes back to 10 years ago, the Y Factor episodes from the BBC on two episodes that they did, which was Intuition Exists, and another episode was intuition doesn't exist.
00:33:16.480 -->
00:33:19.599There was a fascinating debate on two different episodes of the Y Factor.
00:33:19.680 -->
00:33:23.599Again, a really odd pod, but really fantastic one from the BBC.
00:33:23.759 -->
00:33:26.000And the idea is that intuition doesn't exist.
00:33:26.480 -->
00:33:31.839The theory was that actually it isn't just neuroplasticity, it's just very, very quick processing.
00:33:32.000 -->
00:33:37.599And so I think the risk is that we stop being intuitive if we stop learning about how to make decisions.
00:33:37.759 -->
00:33:39.599But anyway, I digress.
00:33:40.799 -->
00:33:42.000It's so interesting though.
00:33:42.079 -->
00:33:51.200I just want you to go on and on and on a I feel like I feel like we could a hundred percent make an entirely new episode just on this topic because it's just fascinating.
00:33:51.440 -->
00:33:55.920Well, Caitlin's spearheading that piece of research for us with the client, which is amazing.
00:33:56.079 -->
00:34:02.880So I've kind of created the hypotheses which I was just describing, but we're going to go back and do a whole load of research to look at is that actually the case?
00:34:03.039 -->
00:34:04.799Is technology having that impact?
00:34:04.960 -->
00:34:07.279Is it diminishing our ability to reason?
00:34:07.440 -->
00:34:10.800Is it having an impact on the way we think and how we see ourselves?
00:34:11.039 -->
00:34:16.480So stay tuned, dear listeners, because an episode is coming once the research is done.
00:34:16.719 -->
00:34:18.400I was about to say that exact same thing.
00:34:18.559 -->
00:34:19.360Very cool.
00:34:19.599 -->
00:34:24.400Well, intuition feeds into our decision-making styles, doesn't it, Amanda?
00:34:24.559 -->
00:34:31.599So that's why I wanted to introduce this next clip, which is around decisive leadership and decisiveness.
00:34:31.760 -->
00:34:39.199And one of the main points there is around we often think decisive means fast-paced gut decisions.
00:34:39.360 -->
00:34:43.920And actually, our guest, Mark Herbert, is saying that's not necessarily correct.
00:34:44.079 -->
00:34:44.719So let's listen.
00:34:44.800 -->
00:34:51.840It's episode 91, Why Decisive Leadership Demands Clarity, Not Speed, with Mark Herbert.
00:34:52.320 -->
00:34:54.079And what's the ultimate really?
00:34:54.159 -->
00:34:55.360What are we talking about here?
00:34:55.519 -->
00:35:00.079Because this podcast episode's all about being decisive, making decisions.
00:35:00.239 -->
00:35:02.559In your mind, Mark, what is it about?
00:35:02.880 -->
00:35:06.079Well, I think a lot of people confuse decisiveness with rushing.
00:35:06.239 -->
00:35:11.840So people will, I think, rightly say a great skill of good leadership is being decisive in decisions.
00:35:11.920 -->
00:35:16.159But I think a wrong assumption is to assume decisive means instinctive and quick.
00:35:16.320 -->
00:35:24.239I think decisive means being really, really clear on what the core of the issue is and on what the criteria are that we're using to make the decision.
00:35:24.320 -->
00:35:25.840And when we make it, we make it.
00:35:25.920 -->
00:35:29.360And then we buy into it and we bring people on the journey.
00:35:29.679 -->
00:35:31.280Indecision is the opposite of that.
00:35:31.440 -->
00:35:40.639It's not having any clarity, it's flip-flopping around different ideas, it's being easily persuaded by false arguments or by power of personality.
00:35:40.960 -->
00:35:43.599We need to be decisive because we have to operate a pace.
00:35:43.679 -->
00:35:48.719And we all would say we probably have limited resource, time, money, bandwidth, headspace.
00:35:49.119 -->
00:35:51.119We need to learn to be more decisive.
00:35:51.199 -->
00:35:55.599And because things change so quickly, by the time we've discussed an issue, things have moved on.
00:35:55.760 -->
00:36:04.480So I think that the skill is clarity, some of which comes quickly, and some of which is let's actually slow down our decision making to make it more rigorous.
00:36:04.559 -->
00:36:06.639We'll probably then make a better decision.
00:36:06.880 -->
00:36:13.519And some of the exec teams that I've worked with, the ones that seem to be struggling at the moment, they're very good at debating.
00:36:13.599 -->
00:36:25.280They're very good at raising issues, they're good at creating agendas, they're not necessarily good at sticking to the agendas and they go over time, but they're not always clear about what has been decided.
00:36:25.440 -->
00:36:28.320What was the final decision and was it made?
00:36:28.559 -->
00:36:34.000And for me, that's the gap because the clarity is often missing.
00:36:34.320 -->
00:36:42.239And the person who owns the piece of work, so if you're responsible for something, how are you going to drive that decision-making process in the room?
00:36:42.400 -->
00:36:46.719How are you going to create accountability and how are you going to get to at least an outcome for now?
00:36:46.880 -->
00:36:54.159So that isn't just something that goes around and round is just a circular conversation that people get more and more confused and more and more demotivated from.
00:36:54.400 -->
00:36:56.400So I think there's two bits to this.
00:36:56.559 -->
00:37:03.280There's how should I make the tricky and difficult decisions personally that I face into in my life and at work?
00:37:03.440 -->
00:37:08.719And how should we, as part of a team, how should we make those tricky and difficult decisions?
00:37:08.960 -->
00:37:12.079What are the tools and techniques that we need to get there?
00:37:12.880 -->
00:37:13.679That's so good.
00:37:13.760 -->
00:37:20.800I was just listening again and thinking about the fact that I've just written two things and then I said two things.
00:37:20.880 -->
00:37:21.599How weird is that?
00:37:21.760 -->
00:37:24.239Because I do believe is it going to be about instinct?
00:37:24.320 -->
00:37:28.559Because we might have a we believe it's our gut, but actually it's that very quick neural processing.
00:37:28.800 -->
00:37:32.239Or do we need to really go back to basics and really think about it?
00:37:32.320 -->
00:37:35.599Both whether it's an individual, sometimes we need to do that.
00:37:35.679 -->
00:37:37.840And as a team, we sometimes need that.
00:37:38.000 -->
00:37:39.679But the clarity is so important.
00:37:39.920 -->
00:37:46.239So often clients leave meetings and they're not clear that the decision's been made, or some people in the room don't think it's being made.
00:37:46.480 -->
00:37:48.400They come out still debating it.
00:37:48.639 -->
00:37:55.519I've also been in so many meetings where everyone, actually, even myself, I leave feeling like, yes, I know.
00:37:55.679 -->
00:37:59.920I know what we've discussed, I know what we've decided, and I know what the actions are moving forward.
00:38:00.079 -->
00:38:04.079And then when it comes to actually actioning that, I go, oh, hold on.
00:38:04.239 -->
00:38:05.840I'm not actually quite clear.
00:38:06.079 -->
00:38:08.880And I often don't understand how did we get there?
00:38:09.119 -->
00:38:14.639How did we get from everyone feels when they're asking any questions, everyone's like, nope, got it.
00:38:14.800 -->
00:38:18.320And then when it comes to actually moving on it, it's not clear.
00:38:18.559 -->
00:38:21.119Yeah, the reality of delivery sometimes is harder, isn't it?
00:38:21.280 -->
00:38:23.360When we're talking theoretically in a moment.
00:38:23.599 -->
00:38:28.400So decision making is definitely going to be a topic that we continue talking to clients about.
00:38:28.639 -->
00:38:32.079It is one of the most important characteristics to be decisive.
00:38:32.320 -->
00:38:44.159But in Mark's language, to learn how to properly decide, not just to make quick decisions, but to be make robust decisions, is going to be absolutely key for leaders moving forward and not overly rely on AI and technology.
00:38:44.400 -->
00:38:44.880Exactly.
00:38:45.119 -->
00:38:48.480It leads right into again that human judgment piece.
00:38:48.880 -->
00:38:55.519Talking about human judgment again, our next podcast clip is one that probably one of my favorite episodes on the pod.
00:38:55.760 -->
00:38:57.599Um, it's a topic after my own heart.
00:38:57.679 -->
00:39:08.000So we're talking about the neuroscience of resilience and actually some of the things we've been discussing just now around human judgment and learning and the importance of neuroplasticity.
00:39:08.159 -->
00:39:11.039We also talk about this in relation to resilience.
00:39:11.119 -->
00:39:12.320So really enjoyed it.
00:39:12.400 -->
00:39:16.559So this is episode 48, the neuroscience of resilience.
00:39:16.880 -->
00:39:24.000I'm particularly interested in how the brain adapts with and adapts to and deals with stressful situations.
00:39:24.159 -->
00:39:30.639Because if we can understand this, we can learn to be more effective when we're faced with difficult situations and stress.
00:39:30.960 -->
00:39:40.880So can you help me understand this a little bit in a little bit more detail, Amanda, in terms of what the brain's doing and some of these neurotransmitters that are related to resilience and stress?
00:39:41.199 -->
00:39:41.599Sure.
00:39:41.760 -->
00:39:48.159So the first one to say is that the brain, of course, very obviously, is the central hub of the nervous system.
00:39:48.239 -->
00:39:52.400And it plays such a pivotal role in our response to stress and adversity.
00:39:52.559 -->
00:40:06.960And if we look at it from a neuroscientific lens, we get a real insight into the biological functions of resilience, the neurotransmitters that we keep talking about, genetic factors, neural networks, and all of these shape our ability to overcome challenge.
00:40:07.199 -->
00:40:10.960So by understanding neuroscience, we can effectively understand resilience?
00:40:11.280 -->
00:40:19.679Totally, because neuroscience helps us understand how we live our lives, why we make the choices we do, and how we experience stress.
00:40:20.159 -->
00:40:36.960Because the activities, the actions, the situations we're in cause changes in the brain because it creates certain neural pathways between different aspects of the brain, and it releases and creates firing in the brain, and it helps us learn.
00:40:37.119 -->
00:40:41.599So it's creating neuroplasticity, and all of that neuroplasticity is learning.
00:40:41.760 -->
00:40:48.639So how we deal with stress and when we face up to it has a real impact on the makeup of our brain.
00:40:48.880 -->
00:40:53.840So just to reiterate, this change in the brain is known as neuroplasticity.
00:40:54.000 -->
00:40:54.239Right.
00:40:54.400 -->
00:41:00.639And it's the change of structure and the change of function of the brain in response to the environment that we live in.
00:41:01.360 -->
00:41:02.239Neuroscience.
00:41:02.559 -->
00:41:09.039Isn't it amazing how every conversation with every client we have these days has neuroscience in it?
00:41:09.119 -->
00:41:18.719Actually, that's a fib because there's one client, which I won't name, where Sarah went and ran a psychological safety pilot with them, and they really didn't like the neuroscience.
00:41:19.199 -->
00:41:19.360Really?
00:41:19.599 -->
00:41:22.880That was such a shock because every other client is like, yeah, more of that, please.
00:41:22.960 -->
00:41:23.679More brain chemistry.
00:41:24.639 -->
00:41:25.280Actually, they did.
00:41:25.360 -->
00:41:30.000They said that they didn't need us to talk quite so heavily about the why.
00:41:30.159 -->
00:41:31.920They wanted to talk more about the how.
00:41:32.079 -->
00:41:35.760They said the fact that you're in the room means that we've done our due diligence.
00:41:35.920 -->
00:41:40.480We believe in you, we trust in your methodology, your research, and your thinking.
00:41:40.639 -->
00:41:43.440So we don't need to prove it through the neuroscience.
00:41:43.599 -->
00:41:46.559You just need to help us understand how do we make change.
00:41:46.800 -->
00:41:50.239It's interesting though, because the neuroscience it feeds into the how.
00:41:50.559 -->
00:41:53.519But you know, if you don't want to learn about that, it it's fine.
00:41:53.679 -->
00:41:54.159But yeah.
00:41:54.400 -->
00:41:59.280Yeah, it's so interesting because all of our habit formation stuff is all based on brain chemistry.
00:41:59.360 -->
00:41:59.440Yeah.
00:41:59.599 -->
00:42:04.480And that we move towards things that make us feel good and release the right neurotransmitters and hormones.
00:42:04.559 -->
00:42:06.320So, yeah, absolutely very interesting.
00:42:06.480 -->
00:42:09.360The first client that's actually said no, thank you to the neuroscience.
00:42:09.679 -->
00:42:14.480I understand where they're coming from, but I think this is one of my favorite bits of what we do.
00:42:14.559 -->
00:42:22.480Um, because I suppose it takes something like resilience and how building resilience, which can feel quite abstract sometimes, right?
00:42:22.559 -->
00:42:27.119And then makes it tangible to when we start to learn about what's happening in the brain.
00:42:27.360 -->
00:42:34.559So, what I got from that episode is that the brain is actually changing shape and function in response to what we're going through.
00:42:34.719 -->
00:42:37.440So that's what neuroplasticity means here.
00:42:37.599 -->
00:42:49.760So every time I found this fascinating, every time we face a stressor and we respond to that new thing, then we're literally wiring the brain, aren't we, to recognize that pattern and then act on it even faster next time.
00:42:49.920 -->
00:42:54.880So that is the mechanism of resilience, and that's the message that people need to hear.
00:42:55.119 -->
00:43:03.840For me, that episode was fascinating because it really focuses on the idea that resilience is a trainable thing, it's not a fixed trait.
00:43:04.000 -->
00:43:06.320And I think that's really helpful to people.
00:43:06.400 -->
00:43:12.639It's not that you either have it or you don't, it's trainable because the brain in itself is built to adapt, isn't it?
00:43:12.719 -->
00:43:31.440And so going back to our conversation just before around the potential of over-reliance on AI, if we're not creating or going through those opportunities to learn and to overcome those stresses in those ways, then are we limiting our ability to be resilient in the workplace as a result?
00:43:31.760 -->
00:43:35.440That's made me wonder actually, because that's my favorite episode.
00:43:35.599 -->
00:43:39.920So I was just thinking, what's all of your favorite episodes out of the now 100?
00:43:40.079 -->
00:43:41.920So I'm gonna ask you again at the end.
00:43:42.079 -->
00:43:43.679I'm gonna give you time to think about it.
00:43:43.760 -->
00:43:47.519Because that's actually my favorite episode, and I wonder what's yours.
00:43:47.760 -->
00:43:49.039So I'll come back to you.
00:43:49.199 -->
00:43:50.480So, Christian, I agree.
00:43:50.559 -->
00:43:51.199That's a great one.
00:43:51.280 -->
00:43:51.519Thank you.
00:43:51.760 -->
00:43:59.760I can actually jump in there because the next episode is one a nice segue, but two, I think it is probably one of my favourite ones because it follows the theme of.
00:44:00.159 -->
00:44:01.199Building resilience.
00:44:01.360 -->
00:44:18.960So we had Adam Smith on, so another guest, and he's a mindset and behavioural change coach, and he talks about his story, which I think is super inspiring, but also shares some great tips in terms of our negative self-talk and our inner critic and how to kind of navigate and manage that.
00:44:19.119 -->
00:44:21.599So this clip is a snippet of that.
00:44:21.840 -->
00:44:27.039This is episode 92, Master Your Inner Critic with Adam Smith.
00:44:27.760 -->
00:44:31.760It's the old mindset, it's the inner child within all of us.
00:44:31.920 -->
00:44:34.800Because a lot of people say inner critic or inner chimp.
00:44:34.960 -->
00:44:36.719I refer to it as inner child.
00:44:36.960 -->
00:44:41.920That inner child needs nurturing and it needs respecting and it needs caring for.
00:44:42.159 -->
00:44:46.880Sometimes it needs to be put in its place, but by and large, we don't want to ridicule it.
00:44:47.039 -->
00:44:49.280It's trying to keep us safe and familiar.
00:44:49.440 -->
00:45:00.239Often it's misguided because it's viewing your current situation as a child, but it also softens it if you think of it as an eight-year-old that you're nurturing rather than shouting at you as an adult.
00:45:00.320 -->
00:45:05.119You wouldn't dream of screaming at an eight-year-old, you're an effing idiot, and you need to do this.
00:45:05.280 -->
00:45:07.039So how do we do it to ourselves?
00:45:07.519 -->
00:45:08.000So true.
00:45:08.079 -->
00:45:19.280And but I think the point you've made there about that inner dialogue, you know, do I personally believe that I have the right to be happy and healthy and to live a fulfilled life?
00:45:19.440 -->
00:45:21.679Or do I not think that?
00:45:21.920 -->
00:45:24.880Do I truly believe that I'm going to deserve that?
00:45:25.119 -->
00:45:31.440And if I'm depleted, for example, if I'm super tired, if I don't look after myself, I don't tend to eat junk food.
00:45:31.519 -->
00:45:38.880But if I don't minds I don't get enough sleep because I am in the gym at six every morning, and I am one of the people who really blast it, I really push really hard.
00:45:38.960 -->
00:45:42.000But what happens is I might stay up too late at night as well.
00:45:42.079 -->
00:45:46.239So I may not have enough hours sleep, and that's where my real depletion comes from.
00:45:46.400 -->
00:45:49.920What happens is I start to get a negative rhetoric in my head.
00:45:50.159 -->
00:46:00.719And that's the thing that I find hard to manage, is that I stop believing that I deserve to be happy and healthy, even though I'm doing everything right because I don't get enough sleep necessarily.
00:46:00.960 -->
00:46:02.400That might be the one thing.
00:46:02.639 -->
00:46:05.519So maintaining that can be really tricky.
00:46:05.760 -->
00:46:11.280Changing a belief system through habits is pretty phenomenal, but I agree with you, very gradual.
00:46:11.440 -->
00:46:16.079But there are for all of us, even myself, who has, I personally have my thing's food.
00:46:16.239 -->
00:46:22.000I struggle with my weight, and I've lost eight stone three times in my life, which I've talked about on the podcast.
00:46:22.159 -->
00:46:25.519And this is the this third time is the one time I've managed to keep it off.
00:46:25.599 -->
00:46:28.800And that's because I'm in the gym every day without fail.
00:46:28.960 -->
00:46:32.480I do between an hour to two hours, sometimes three hours a day in the gym.
00:46:32.639 -->
00:46:37.119So I do a hit class followed by a spin, and then in the evening I go back and do yoga.
00:46:37.280 -->
00:46:46.800And it's because of that that I manage and maintain, but it's quite hard still, even despite all that and doing everything right, to keep a positive belief system.
00:46:47.519 -->
00:46:48.880Um I have to work at it.
00:46:49.119 -->
00:46:53.440So go back a few a few steps here, and I'm gonna be pickety now.
00:46:53.599 -->
00:46:53.840Okay.
00:46:54.639 -->
00:46:55.280Do it.
00:46:56.159 -->
00:46:59.039I really struggle with food.
00:46:59.280 -->
00:47:07.599Now, what I encourage people to do is when I think I deconstruct sentences, I'm obsessed with words, okay, and what they mean.
00:47:07.920 -->
00:47:09.360I struggle.
00:47:09.599 -->
00:47:16.079Now, when I think of a struggle, the technical definition is a great fight from a restraint, and it sounds exhausting.
00:47:16.400 -->
00:47:24.400It is so when we are in a struggle, we are either attacking or we are defending, and either way, it's exhausting.
00:47:24.559 -->
00:47:33.199So, where I'd be encouraging you to reframe this is formally, I would find it very challenging to get it the right balance with food.
00:47:33.360 -->
00:47:36.960However, I'm working on it and I'm becoming better every day.
00:47:37.280 -->
00:47:46.719Because otherwise, it's I, as in self, struggle with food, and we have to eat food to survive because alcohol we don't need.
00:47:46.800 -->
00:47:51.519So some people say to me, I struggle with alcohol, or I struggle with the thought of not having alcohol.
00:47:51.599 -->
00:47:54.480But we don't need alcohol to survive, but we need food to survive.
00:47:54.719 -->
00:48:02.320So as long as the rhetoric, as you alluded to earlier, is I have always struggled with food, you will continue to do so.
00:48:02.559 -->
00:48:04.079It's like you're telling yourself, yeah.
00:48:04.400 -->
00:48:05.199Correct.
00:48:05.920 -->
00:48:09.519Well, that was very poignant and personal.
00:48:09.679 -->
00:48:13.199I can't remember I can't remember sharing quite so much on the pod.
00:48:13.679 -->
00:48:15.599Well, thanks for choosing that one, Caitlyn.
00:48:16.880 -->
00:48:23.440There's a lot, um, if you go and listen to the full episode, there's there's even more around kind of some tips around how we talk to ourselves.
00:48:23.519 -->
00:48:29.039But I just think the deconstructing of the sentences, I think is quite a fascinating way to approach it.
00:48:29.119 -->
00:48:33.519And I think it's once you probably get in the hang of it, I think it can be really useful.
00:48:33.599 -->
00:48:40.639And I I know for sure after having that conversation, even in my own coaching and with my coaching clients, it I found it quite useful.
00:48:40.719 -->
00:48:42.079But even at home as well.
00:48:42.239 -->
00:48:50.320And Amanda, that's quite a personal example that you used, but I can imagine loads of people can really benefit from thinking about how they talk to themselves.
00:48:50.639 -->
00:48:53.920It's so interesting because I have reframed the way I talk to myself.
00:48:54.079 -->
00:48:56.320And I wonder if it was from that episode.
00:48:56.639 -->
00:48:58.880But I don't talk about struggling anymore.
00:48:59.039 -->
00:49:00.800I talk about it in a different way.
00:49:00.960 -->
00:49:02.000So there you go.
00:49:02.400 -->
00:49:05.280It may have had a bigger impact on me than I realized.
00:49:05.679 -->
00:49:12.159Well, speaking of making changes, Amanda, our final clip is one that I've selected.
00:49:12.400 -->
00:49:18.079And I thought since we've spent a lot of this time sort of looking back, now let's look forward.
00:49:18.239 -->
00:49:28.639So we had an episode, you and I, quite a while ago, episode 58, about the changing shape of work and what the future of work might look like.
00:49:29.119 -->
00:49:32.800And this final clip is around that psychological contract.
00:49:32.960 -->
00:49:34.639So let's listen and discuss.
00:49:35.360 -->
00:49:38.239This is episode 58, the changing shape of work.
00:49:38.480 -->
00:49:38.559Okay.
00:49:39.679 -->
00:49:47.760So psychological contract is very much about the agreement, the sometimes unconscious agreement between the employee and the organization.
00:49:48.079 -->
00:49:49.519It's the deal, if you like.
00:49:49.679 -->
00:49:56.800It's the expectation that the employee has of the employer, and it's the expectation of the employer of the employee.
00:49:57.039 -->
00:50:11.039And so we consciously, sometimes and subconsciously, more of the time, make decisions about the organization on the basis of whether we feel that they are an ethical or trustworthy organization and how we feel we're going to be treated by that organization.
00:50:11.199 -->
00:50:22.320And companies are becoming much more sophisticated in the way in which they market themselves and they interact with candidates so that they can create a more attractive proposition.
00:50:22.559 -->
00:50:26.719But actually, the buying power of candidates is changing.
00:50:26.800 -->
00:50:29.280What they're interested in is changing.
00:50:29.440 -->
00:50:43.440And so looking at these forces has been really interesting because it's very much influencing the way organizations need to think to attract, retain, and develop their high-performing candidates of the future.
00:50:43.679 -->
00:50:48.719That must have such an impact on the way we lead and how employers interact with their employees.
00:50:48.880 -->
00:50:50.079I know that's so true.
00:50:50.239 -->
00:50:58.079Because one of the big challenges that we've seen from organizations is that when they're successful, they often get very inward-looking.
00:50:58.239 -->
00:51:01.519They focus on what they're doing well and what they're not doing so well.
00:51:01.679 -->
00:51:04.880But what they fail to do is look at the external landscape.
00:51:05.039 -->
00:51:10.639They don't necessarily think about the external forces that are going to impact their organization in the future.
00:51:10.719 -->
00:51:21.039They become very siloed as an organization and all of their thinking and all of their creativity happens within the organization without thinking about the external changes that are afoot.
00:51:21.280 -->
00:51:35.280I think it's absolutely critical that leaders have much more of a macro lens than they have ever done, and that we remove that tendency to be very much focusing on what's happening right in front of us, right in front of our noses.
00:51:35.920 -->
00:51:38.960So, Amanda, that was a couple of years ago you said that.
00:51:39.119 -->
00:51:40.320Do you still feel that way?
00:51:40.559 -->
00:51:41.039Completely.
00:51:41.199 -->
00:51:45.039But interesting that I said successful organizations look internally.
00:51:45.199 -->
00:51:55.679I think it's both successful and organizations who are struggling due to the environment being extremely demanding or relentless, they get tunnel vision, they get very narrow in their focus.
00:51:55.840 -->
00:52:11.760And that's when we start to see silos and we see those safe havens start to appear or safe islands start to appear when we talk about psychological safety, where managers put their arms very tightly around their team and protect their team from the rest of the organization so that they don't feel like they're drowning.
00:52:12.000 -->
00:52:22.880So, no, I still 100% concur with my previous thoughts and research that we need to have a bigger macro perspective and be more external with our thinking and learn from one another.
00:52:23.119 -->
00:52:29.519And do we think that that psychological contract has shifted anymore since our last conversation?
00:52:29.840 -->
00:52:33.519What I was reflecting while I was listening to that clip was the AI.
00:52:33.679 -->
00:52:35.840AI's changed since we reported that.
00:52:36.079 -->
00:52:36.480Absolutely.
00:52:36.719 -->
00:52:40.400And the expectation of the employee around technology.
00:52:40.639 -->
00:52:46.800So my brother, who is 32 literally next week, so there's a bit of a gap between us, a little bit.
00:52:47.360 -->
00:52:51.280And he is a creative director in a tech business.
00:52:51.440 -->
00:52:55.199And he said the way he's worked has fundamentally changed.
00:52:55.280 -->
00:52:56.960He hardly ever writes code now.
00:52:57.119 -->
00:53:01.760It's all through Claude or it's all through the systems that are available to him.
00:53:02.000 -->
00:53:08.239And it means that he can just be much more creative with his thinking because he's not just writing now.
00:53:08.480 -->
00:53:13.840And there's an expectation for the people coming into that organization about the use of AI.
00:53:14.079 -->
00:53:21.599And because he's in a technology business, of course, that expectation would have been much quicker than psychology, bringing psychologists in.
00:53:21.760 -->
00:53:25.280We're probably a bit slower on the uptake than a technology business.
00:53:25.519 -->
00:53:36.079Yet, whenever we bring in new psychologists and new interns into our organization, they're incredibly pro-AI and they're just embracing our world so differently.
00:53:36.239 -->
00:53:40.719I mean, we gosh, the internet was only just happening when I started being a psychologist.
00:53:40.880 -->
00:53:44.079So it was intra-emails and researching.
00:53:44.320 -->
00:53:48.239I had to go to the library and get journals out and print the journals.
00:53:48.320 -->
00:53:54.239And I had stacks and stacks of printed journals that I'd have to read and stacks and stacks of books that I'd have to read.
00:53:54.320 -->
00:53:58.880It was just super different how we accessed and digested information.
00:53:59.199 -->
00:54:00.719Do you remember microfiche?
00:54:00.880 -->
00:54:02.079I don't even think anyone.
00:54:02.639 -->
00:54:02.960I do.
00:54:03.840 -->
00:54:04.960I feel very old.
00:54:05.679 -->
00:54:06.480I certainly do.
00:54:06.639 -->
00:54:06.960I don't.
00:54:08.639 -->
00:54:08.960Yeah.
00:54:09.760 -->
00:54:14.800It was like oh goodness.
00:54:14.960 -->
00:54:17.119It's definitely been a disruptor, hasn't it, AI?
00:54:17.360 -->
00:54:17.679It has.
00:54:17.760 -->
00:54:20.000It's a good disruptor, though, a really good one.
00:54:20.079 -->
00:54:22.639But we just need to not succumb to our lazy brains.
00:54:22.880 -->
00:54:24.239It's how to navigate it, yeah.
00:54:24.320 -->
00:54:25.920It's how to augment it.
00:54:26.159 -->
00:54:26.880Totally.
00:54:27.119 -->
00:54:29.119That was our last episode, wasn't it not, Angela?
00:54:29.679 -->
00:54:30.400That was the last clip.
00:54:30.480 -->
00:54:30.800It wasn't.
00:54:31.199 -->
00:54:31.920It's crazy.
00:54:32.000 -->
00:54:33.199We've done 10 already.
00:54:33.760 -->
00:54:51.119So we hope that you've enjoyed those 10 episodes because personally, looking over the 99 episodes that I've been part of, either to introduce in the last few but record the majority, I've noticed that all of it comes down to the connection piece again.
00:54:51.599 -->
00:54:59.599Making sure that people recognize and understand who they're working with, why they're working with them, and how they can work with them better.
00:54:59.760 -->
00:55:00.719And that environment.
00:55:00.800 -->
00:55:09.360So how can we create the environment where people want to go to work, they want to contribute, and they want to help the business or the team be successful.
00:55:09.679 -->
00:55:14.639So that seems to be the golden thread that runs through all of our pods.
00:55:14.880 -->
00:55:20.639One of the things that I have mentioned, albeit very quietly and gently, is that I've written the book.
00:55:20.800 -->
00:55:27.039The working title of the book is Brave Teams: Turning Psychological Safety into Competitive Edge.
00:55:27.280 -->
00:55:36.159And when I look over those episodes, everything that we've talked about over those episodes really points to how can we help teams to be braver.
00:55:36.559 -->
00:55:40.639And when the book comes out on the 27th of April, that's the date, by the way.
00:55:41.199 -->
00:55:42.079I don't think you knew that.
00:55:42.159 -->
00:55:44.000So yeah, just before my birthday, Amanda.
00:55:45.440 -->
00:55:46.800I was gonna say, was that purposeful?
00:55:47.119 -->
00:55:49.840Oh yes, Caitlin, we did it for you for your birthday.
00:55:50.079 -->
00:55:54.320Well, the ebook comes out on the 26th, the actual book comes out on the 27th of April.
00:55:54.400 -->
00:55:56.159We have all the ISDNs and everything already.
00:55:56.320 -->
00:55:56.800Amazing.
00:55:56.960 -->
00:56:03.679And so when the book comes out, it's really going to be summarizing a lot of the thinking and research I've been doing over the last 20 years.
00:56:03.920 -->
00:56:11.599But, you know, the reality is the work environment has changed so fundamentally, particularly since it'd be started recording in February 22.
00:56:11.760 -->
00:56:14.800Yet how people interact and how they connect hasn't.
00:56:14.960 -->
00:56:20.239And some of those golden threads that are in the book that we talk about are still really important.
00:56:20.400 -->
00:56:27.039So some of those episodes that we've shared are still fundamentally important because we still now have to navigate change.
00:56:27.280 -->
00:56:30.000We still need to evolve and develop our people.
00:56:30.159 -->
00:56:34.639We still need to have real conversations, we still need to connect and so on.
00:56:34.880 -->
00:56:42.880So trust, connection, belonging, inclusion, all the things that we talk about are still fundamental to organizations' success.
00:56:43.119 -->
00:56:48.000So before we stop this pod, I'm going to ask each of you that question I promise to ask you.
00:56:48.239 -->
00:56:52.800What's your favorite, favorite episode of the pod and why?
00:56:53.039 -->
00:56:53.840Christian.
00:56:54.320 -->
00:56:59.920This sounds like I'm copying you, Amanda, but I think it's episode 48 sticks in my mind.
00:57:00.079 -->
00:57:03.360So it's when we talk about the neuroscience of resilience.
00:57:03.519 -->
00:57:28.159And I think the reason is because it really helped me to understand a lot more clearly how resilience is built and all the things that we talk about in relation to resilience, like the importance of meaning and purpose, joy, happiness, self-efficacy, self-esteem, how we talk to ourselves or internal dialogue, and how that links to uh neuroplasticity and hence how it can build our resilience.
00:57:28.239 -->
00:57:29.840So, yeah, I love that episode still.
00:57:30.159 -->
00:57:30.719Thank you.
00:57:30.960 -->
00:57:41.039And Christian, if you want to have that episode as your favourite, then I'll have a different episode as my favourite, then, because I didn't know whether to choose this one, which was episode 86 from Tragedy to Resilience.
00:57:41.280 -->
00:58:07.840How forgiveness shaped Martin's Law with Vegan Murray, because it was such a powerful episode, and how she's literally changed the law since the death of her son in the Manchester Arena bombing, and how forgiveness was the thing that changed her mindset and gave her the strength and the courage to be brave and to pursue what was right and to protect other people going into big events.
00:58:08.000 -->
00:58:10.320So yeah, for me that would be my favourite.
00:58:10.559 -->
00:58:13.360Caitlin, what was your favourite episode and why?
00:58:13.679 -->
00:58:27.280So, I mean, I mentioned that the Adam Smith was one of my favourites, but I'll choose another one because there is another one which always sticks with me, which was episode 64, which was Building a Thriving Culture with Simon Rogerson, who's a CEO of Octopus Group.
00:58:27.440 -->
00:58:31.440And I think one, just him as a person, how passionate he is about his business.
00:58:31.599 -->
00:58:32.719I think you can really see that.
00:58:32.800 -->
00:58:38.880And I think that then feeds through to, I guess, his ultimate aim in the title of the podcast, which is building a thriving culture.
00:58:38.960 -->
00:58:43.119But also, you know, it talks about all the things that we love talking about around cognitive diversity.
00:58:43.280 -->
00:58:47.840The other one is championing kindness in the workplace, and there's a really good example he gave.
00:58:48.000 -->
00:58:51.199So you'll have to listen to the podcast if you want to know what it was.
00:58:51.599 -->
00:58:52.320Well indeed.
00:58:52.480 -->
00:58:53.039Thank you very much.
00:58:53.360 -->
00:58:54.159Nice teaser.
00:58:54.480 -->
00:58:56.320Angela, what about your favorite pod?
00:58:56.639 -->
00:59:00.400So I think my favorite always changes as we go on.
00:59:00.639 -->
00:59:08.719One of the episodes I'm sort of most proud of at the moment is actually very recent episode 98, The Best Bits of Resilience.
00:59:09.039 -->
00:59:23.280But to choose an actual episode, I think following that resilience thread, one of my favorites at the moment is episode 78, which is maintaining resilience during the Coventry Building Society and the Cooperative Bank mergers.
00:59:24.000 -->
00:59:24.880Yeah, with Lucy.
00:59:25.039 -->
00:59:26.239Exactly, with Lucy back.
00:59:26.559 -->
00:59:33.519That was just a really powerful example of what focusing on resilience can do for an organization.
00:59:33.760 -->
00:59:34.960And I just love it.
00:59:35.119 -->
00:59:41.440You'd have to listen to it to hear all of the ways that they built resilience into their operational map.
00:59:41.679 -->
00:59:43.280But yeah, excellent episode.
00:59:43.440 -->
00:59:44.000It was really good.
00:59:44.159 -->
00:59:45.360It was all about habits, wasn't it?
00:59:45.440 -->
00:59:47.039It was all about the why and the how.
00:59:47.280 -->
00:59:48.079How fabulous.
00:59:48.239 -->
00:59:48.719Thank you.
00:59:48.960 -->
00:59:50.559So thank you, team.
00:59:50.719 -->
00:59:52.639Thank you for being my pod team.
00:59:52.880 -->
00:59:59.360Of course, we did have Tim as well as an early host for who we haven't invited along today because he's our chief technology officer.
00:59:59.440 -->
01:00:04.719But he was very kind and very brave in my very early episodes in being my podcast host.
01:00:04.800 -->
01:00:09.440But he was also very funny because he's a stand-up comedian in his spare time when he was at uni.
01:00:09.679 -->
01:00:10.559So he kept telling jokes.
01:00:10.719 -->
01:00:12.880I was like, you can't keep just telling jokes.
01:00:13.119 -->
01:00:14.400But actually, he's super.
01:00:14.719 -->
01:00:21.760So thank you to all of you, and thank you so much for being my host throughout the whole of this experience.
01:00:21.920 -->
01:00:23.360We're planning to record more.
01:00:23.440 -->
01:00:28.800In fact, we've already recorded a whole batch to air in the new year and for the rest of this year.
01:00:29.039 -->
01:00:37.119What's really interesting about this conversation and all the previous episodes is it all points to the same thing, which is about the environment and the climate.
01:00:37.280 -->
01:00:44.719That we need to create the right environment and the right climate for people to thrive and to succeed and for them to be brave as teams.
01:00:44.960 -->
01:00:58.159So everything that we do within our organization and all of the products that we have and we sell, so Strengths, Resilience, Team and Psychological Safety and 360, they're all about enabling that success for organizations.
01:00:58.400 -->
01:01:02.559So thank you for everyone who's hangs out with us in consulting and in product.
01:01:03.039 -->
01:01:09.679Thank you also to all of the listeners who have been so loyal and so supportive and have given us ratings and reviews.
01:01:09.840 -->
01:01:12.079We've got so many five-star ratings and reviews.
01:01:12.159 -->
01:01:18.400And if you haven't yet, and you do love us, please do give us a five-star rating and review, particularly as a gift for our 100th episode.
01:01:18.480 -->
01:01:19.519That would be amazing.
01:01:19.679 -->
01:01:23.679And we're getting fantastic guests on for the new year, too.
01:01:23.840 -->
01:01:25.199So it's been brilliant.
01:01:25.440 -->
01:01:31.199I hope you've enjoyed looking back with us, and we look forward to continuing the conversation about the future.
01:01:31.440 -->
01:01:33.440And thank you everybody for listening.
01:01:33.599 -->
01:01:37.280So I hope you all have a wonderful and successful day.
