E197 | AI Won’t Replace Your Doctor’s Front Desk — It’ll Save It | Oakkar Oakkar, Keona Health

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Language: en
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Hello and welcome back to the Advancing
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Healthcare Innovation Show. I'm your
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host, Michael Stamatinos, and if you're
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new to us, welcome. We are super excited
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to have you here because we're having
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some just tremendous conversations with
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real leaders that are painstakingly
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reshaping the future of healthcare. We
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are pretty passionate about a few
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different areas. We're very passionate
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about access, about innovation and
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transformation and leadership and the
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adoption of these innovations. And if
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it's your first time tuning in, let me
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just take a quick step back and tell you
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a little bit more about what we're
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trying to get done here. So the ethos of
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the show is focusing in on real leaders,
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real people that are truly innovating
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within our space and leading and guiding
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differently and giving them the
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opportunity to share their stories,
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share their learnings, share their
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little wins with our community and
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ultimately with the world. If you
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wherever you are, if you have been
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watching this show, however you're
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consuming this show, if you're watching
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it, if you're listening to it, please
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hit the subscribe button now. so that
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any of the new interviews come directly
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to you.
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Very excited about this episode today.
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Very very excited uh for a few different
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reasons, but let me just sort of take a
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step back here. So, everybody talks
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about access.
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What does that mean? You know, more
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appointments, better experiences,
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meeting patients where they are. But I
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think the reality is for most people is
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that the health care journey, it doesn't
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it doesn't start with a physician,
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doesn't start with a doctor or nurse. It
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starts with a phone call. It starts with
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a question. Um the moment where someone
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needs help, they got to navigate through
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the system that can obviously feel very
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very complex. Even for someone like me
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who's been in the system for a while,
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it's tough. And I think that first
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interaction can shape everything that
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happens next. So my next guest is
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someone who I think is absolutely
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brilliant. His name is Okar
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and he's the CEO of Kona Health. Yes,
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someone with two first names. Okar, I
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think, is one of the most intriguing and
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interesting founders I've gotten to know
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over the last couple of years. He's an
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AI engineer by background. He's a
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builder by nature and a surfer who found
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inspiration in the waves of light. U
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which actually makes a lot of sense
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because I think surfing teaches you
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something important. It you don't
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control the ocean. You learn to
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understand it. You you read the patterns
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and you anticipate what's coming. And
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for those that are listening, if you're
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a surfer, you understand you you
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position yourself to respond accordingly
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and to to catch the wave. And in my
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opinion, healthcare works the same exact
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way. And millions of patients are trying
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to find the right care at the right time
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while healthcare teams are navigating
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this constant, you know, complexity
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that's happening behind the scenes. And
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in this, OKAR saw an opportunity. You
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know, what if what if technology could
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help, you know, organizations to kind of
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better understand those signals, you
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know, what if AI could remove some of
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those some of those friction points so
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that you can focus more on the things
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that matter on the on the human
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interaction. And that idea is what
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started Kiona Health. and it's a company
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that's helping healthcare organizations
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transform the way patients access and
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navigate care. So in this conversation,
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my hope is that yes, we'll talk about AI
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uh healthc care's front door. We'll talk
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about entrepreneurship, we'll talk about
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what surfing can teach us about building
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technology, about building companies
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um for one of the most complex
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industries in the world. So, Okar, great
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to see you. Welcome to the show.
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>> Thank you, Mike. Outstanding
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introduction. I love it. So happy to be
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here.
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>> All right. So before we dig into AI um
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healthcare or KA I I actually want to
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start in the ocean because you've got
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that
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if if you're if you're watching this
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you're seeing this magnificent board in
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the background that you just I just
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can't
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I'm curious what what did surfing teach
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you about life that you don't think you
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could have learned anywhere else?
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>> Yeah, thank you for starting with the
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ocean which is my happy place. Right.
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It's always good to start with the happy
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place. Uh no, you nailed it uh with the
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analogy on surfing, right? You know, the
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the ocean teaches you timing and teaches
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you patience and teaches you sometime
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things going to be out of control. It
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teaches you about chaos, right? And
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there's the absolutely nothing that you
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have control over once you are in the
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mother of nature, right? You have to
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respect it. You have to be patient and
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uh you got to wait for the right timing
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and uh you know it just it's like so
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many things we could learn uh not just
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for u you know business or healthcare
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per se right or with life too being
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mother nature.
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>> I think the ocean is probably you know
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one of the the most mysterious
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you know factor uh for mother nature.
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>> Yeah. Do do you do you remember the
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first time you kind of caught a wave and
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thought I I understand why people do
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this forever?
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>> Oh, that you just hooked. You are just
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hooked, right? You It's, you know, you
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wait for the right timing and you pop
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right up and then the ocean pushes you
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and the next thing you know, you're
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riding and just like one of the most
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amazing feelings you can have.
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>> It's very addicting, you know, very
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addicting. Was there ever an instance
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where a moment where the ocean like
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really humbled you?
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>> Oh yeah. So, you know, I broke my nose
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in the ocean uh sort of thing and I fell
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off and uh hit the rock and scraped my
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body into pieces, right? And step on sea
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urchins. I couldn't walk. I had to
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crawl. Right? So, so many things. If
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you're reckless, if you weren't paying
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attention, if you are greedy, if you are
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not considerate, oh,
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it'll teach you so many tough lessons
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that you know makes you it's very
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humbling.
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>> Yeah, you think surfing changed the way
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you build companies.
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>> Um, for sure like you know the the whole
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genesis and the inspiration around Kona
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Health came from surfing, right? So uh
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yeah it it really shaped uh the way I
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think and uh believe it or not I met my
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uh wife in the water surfing. So surfing
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is a huge part of me. So you know I saw
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in the water I started talking to her
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and you know fast forward here with you
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know two beautiful babies. Oh they're
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not babies anymore. They're like nine
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and 11. So
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that's my babies.
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>> Yeah. Well, tell tell me about sort of
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uh
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this the genesis of Ka I think because
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here here's here's I want to frame this
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with is the more I've gotten to know you
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um I've just sort of realized that
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there's this calmness around how you
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sort of approach complex problems.
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Like where does that come from?
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Were you always wired that way?
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>> Yeah. So, um, you know, I used to suffer
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a friend. Um, you know, that was back in
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Hawaii, right? You know, uh, 15 15 years
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ago. I used to serve with the friend
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and, uh, at the time he was implementing
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u electronic health records, you know,
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in the health systems in the Bay Area.
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Um, but he would come home every
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Thursday to surf.
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And uh again back to being in the ocean
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uh sometimes you have to wait you have
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to be patient but it allows you to
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interact with other human beings you
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know your friends that you surfing with
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other surfers you talk uh it's you know
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one of the the coolest experiences you
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can have right so I was talking to my
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friend um there and asking him about
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what he does and uh got so fascinated by
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the whole medical informatics right how
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the patient's data is being used and how
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you could uh really enhance uh you know
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humans lives and since then I had a
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calling a huge passion you know what I
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really want to build a product that
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really helps u millions of people in
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healthcare right so that calling was
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clearly there um and um the more you
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talk about it the more I get fascinated
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you know again right you just asked so
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many questions. Um and uh but Hawaii is
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a a pretty
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uh amazing place. Do you have
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inspirations? Um but it's a you know a
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lot of waves
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probably throughout the year. So it was
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really hard to execute. Um and uh so my
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girlfriend at the time, my wife um she
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got into UNCC for grad school and she's
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like, "You know what? you've been
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talking about this company for a long
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time and it's time for you to execute.
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So, I'm moving to North Carolina and
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you're coming with me. I said, "Wait,
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wait, wait, wait. Where are we? We're
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going to North Carol where?"
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Uh, she backed me to North Carolina and
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uh I couldn't serve. Uh, I was really
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bored. I was miserable. and next thing
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you know founded a company met my
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co-founders and you know the rest was
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the history right
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>> so um that's how it all started so back
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to your question on you know staying
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calm and uh you know I realized that um
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you know I didn't have any healthcare
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experience right before I started Kiona
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>> and once you get into healthcare things
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were a lot more complicated Right. And
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we want to bring
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>> Do you feel like that was a blessing
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though that you didn't have that
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exposure to healthcare that you kind of
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went into it sort of like I'm thinking
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like a bumblebee. A bumblebee doesn't
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know that it can't fly but it does it
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still flies. Do you feel like you kind
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of had some of that going into it or
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were you just immediately humbled?
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>> Oh, most definitely. Right. So, had I
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known all the complexities and rules and
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regulations around healthcare, I would
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have stayed away. Right. Not knowing
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that uh was a you know a bit of a
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blessing right not knowing that just
00:11:12.800 --> 00:11:16.470
jumped right in and especially you know
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we were we wanted to bring in the
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personalization consumerization that we
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were doing in other verticals and you
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know and the retail real estate IT uh
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you know travel industry is huge in
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Hawaii right so bringing these amazing
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uh personalization and consumerization
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into healthcare
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But boom, right, just got smack in the
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face uh from all these different
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complexities and regulations and we
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quickly realized that uh if we if we
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really want to improve healthcare, we
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have to start with access, right?
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Patient access, right?
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>> That's the first place uh huge problem.
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I had my own personal experience. Um and
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uh that was that was it. Um and the it's
00:12:02.079 --> 00:12:03.829
like onion, right? the more you start
00:12:03.839 --> 00:12:07.590
appealing uh the more humbling you get
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and uh makes you realize that you have
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to solve a lot of difficult problems one
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after another and of course you know
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it's also just like surfing this is very
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addicting right it's
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>> opening one door after another but you
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know we love solving difficult problems
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and we're like you know kids in the in
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the candy store but right um
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>> well when solving problems. Is it
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because you just you love to build
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because you like you love technology or
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is it because you just you see problems
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:42.710
differently?
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:45.590
Yeah, I love uh I love technologies, but
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.230
uh first and foremost, we love to solve
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.069
difficult problems, right? We're just
00:12:50.079 --> 00:12:51.829
like all the three of us, all the
00:12:51.839 --> 00:12:53.670
co-founders, uh Jimmy, Stephen, and
00:12:53.680 --> 00:12:57.350
myself, we're just wired that way. And
00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:01.110
uh uh the more you look into healthcare
00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.350
access problems, the more you realize
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.069
that a lot of people are trying to solve
00:13:06.079 --> 00:13:08.230
superficial problems and they're
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:11.030
claiming that they are, you know, rein
00:13:11.040 --> 00:13:12.790
reimagining or they're transforming
00:13:12.800 --> 00:13:15.269
healthcare, right? Which is far from uh
00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:19.829
truth. Um and uh healthcare access is a
00:13:19.839 --> 00:13:22.470
very very difficult problem.
00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:25.430
And if you really want to solve it very
00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:27.190
meaningfully, right, you can't just have
00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:28.550
it, okay, I'm just going to solve a
00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:31.190
little quick uh you know scheduling for
00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.590
a new patient or existing patient,
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:34.470
right?
00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:37.350
>> You have to solve as a whole holistic
00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:41.509
ecosystem from triaging, scheduling,
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.350
prescription refills, right? Building
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.670
questions and and pretty much all the
00:13:45.680 --> 00:13:47.910
calls that are coming in or all the
00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:49.509
inquiries that patients are currently
00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:52.870
do. Um and you have to really
00:13:52.880 --> 00:13:55.590
orchestrate the whole journey otherwise
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:57.910
you know you're just having peace meal
00:13:57.920 --> 00:14:00.550
solutions here and here and there and
00:14:00.560 --> 00:14:04.069
it's not really solving or solving you
00:14:04.079 --> 00:14:05.990
know the uh healthcare access problems
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.990
meaningfully right
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.790
>> that's why um it took us a lot longer
00:14:10.800 --> 00:14:14.150
than than we anticipated uh to do what
00:14:14.160 --> 00:14:15.670
we wanted to do and
00:14:15.680 --> 00:14:17.110
>> what did you what did you originally
00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:18.550
anticipate like how long did you think
00:14:18.560 --> 00:14:20.069
it was going to take you and how long
00:14:20.079 --> 00:14:21.590
Did it actually take you?
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:23.269
>> Yeah. So, we thought it's going to be
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.670
like, you know, a few years, right? Uh
00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:28.150
is this going to be uh solved and we're
00:14:28.160 --> 00:14:30.470
going to transform healthcare? Oh, yeah.
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:34.870
We were we was far.
00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:37.509
It was far off. And you know, it took
00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:38.949
you know, three four times longer than
00:14:38.959 --> 00:14:42.470
you anticipated. Uh but we believe in
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:44.470
solving that. So, we are just so
00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:46.949
convicted and we won't stop till we get
00:14:46.959 --> 00:14:49.910
there and we are almost there.
00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:52.949
I think very few people are uh are crazy
00:14:52.959 --> 00:14:56.949
enough to spend years trying to fix
00:14:56.959 --> 00:14:58.069
something.
00:14:58.079 --> 00:14:59.750
>> We are.
00:14:59.760 --> 00:15:01.590
>> Yeah. I say the only way is like you get
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.030
obsessed enough about an issue or you
00:15:05.040 --> 00:15:06.550
just can't unsee this problem. You're
00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:08.069
like I'm going to I'm going to see it
00:15:08.079 --> 00:15:10.790
through to the end. And so it's a bit of
00:15:10.800 --> 00:15:12.389
combination of
00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.150
>> stubbornness
00:15:14.160 --> 00:15:16.629
uh pride
00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:20.069
and a whole lot of grit. Yeah. And also
00:15:20.079 --> 00:15:23.990
like obsession, right? Um didn't know
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.110
that. Um again for the three of us, for
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:29.110
all the co-founders,
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:33.189
uh this has become our reason for
00:15:33.199 --> 00:15:35.430
existence, right?
00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:37.990
>> This is our Yeah. This is our existence.
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.389
We have to do it, right? It has our
00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.110
names on it and we got to just see
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.790
through it. There's no no way around.
00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.269
>> Yeah. I I think every founder at some
00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:52.790
point, you know, has a moment where
00:15:52.800 --> 00:15:54.629
the problem that you're solving goes
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:59.269
from interesting to to personal.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:00.310
>> Yeah.
00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.710
>> Was you had mentioned something before.
00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:04.230
I'm just wondering like what was what
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.470
was that moment for you?
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.990
>> Oh, yeah. So, um
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:11.590
coming from Hawaii, right? North
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:13.509
Carolina, it's a you know, it's a little
00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:17.829
bit drier. It's in the in the fall day,
00:16:17.839 --> 00:16:21.030
super dry fall day, and I was just
00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:23.030
walking away, you know, in my office,
00:16:23.040 --> 00:16:25.590
and all of a sudden,
00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:27.509
uh, my nose just started bleeding out of
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.590
the blue,
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.310
>> and it never happened to me before. So,
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:34.949
I was like, "Wow." And, uh, I was
00:16:34.959 --> 00:16:37.269
wearing a a shirt. My whole shirt was
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:39.829
soaked in blood, and I had no idea
00:16:39.839 --> 00:16:42.710
what's going on. So, of course, I
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.749
panicly call, you know, the hospital's
00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.230
nearby, doctor's office is nearby while
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.949
I was like, you know, trying to
00:16:50.959 --> 00:16:52.550
stop the, you know, the blood coming out
00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:56.310
of my nose and nobody picked up. No one
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:57.430
picked up.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.350
>> I called like six people, like six
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.910
practices nearby.
00:17:01.920 --> 00:17:04.470
>> So, I was like, "Wow." You know, and
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.630
then um I ended up driving to uh to the
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.750
ER, right? because again it's still like
00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:13.510
I'm thriving. It's still like so much
00:17:13.520 --> 00:17:17.669
blood coming out and then once I sat in
00:17:17.679 --> 00:17:21.510
the ER uh it stopped.
00:17:21.520 --> 00:17:23.270
Uh but you know I didn't leave because I
00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:25.429
I need to know what's going on. Right.
00:17:25.439 --> 00:17:30.390
>> So after waiting for four hours
00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.270
um I saw a nurse
00:17:33.280 --> 00:17:35.430
>> and you know the first thing she asked
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:41.590
me was um were you picking your nose?
00:17:41.600 --> 00:17:43.430
Because if you think about it, right?
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.630
Like for her, she is, you know, treating
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:48.870
people with like serious injuries,
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.029
right? Like fatal, life-threatening
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:52.150
injuries.
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:54.710
>> There I was like nose bleed. I thought I
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:56.630
was like dying because never happened to
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:57.830
me before.
00:17:57.840 --> 00:17:59.750
>> And of course, you know, she checked me
00:17:59.760 --> 00:18:02.230
in, she checked my vitals, she checked
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.029
my, you know, health record, and I have
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:08.150
no health issues, right? So, of course,
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.470
you know, she was trying to I was all
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.870
frustrated and concerned where I
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:14.470
shouldn't have been and she was trying
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:16.710
to, you know, line up a little bit and
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.470
ask me if I was my
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.350
>> uh so this, you know, access has a huge
00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:25.909
problem because had I known all I had to
00:18:25.919 --> 00:18:28.710
do was like pinch my nose and look down
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:32.549
and for a couple of minutes um again,
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:34.230
you know, I'm I'm an immigrant, right?
00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:36.549
Come, you know, I was born in Burma.
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.270
And uh you know healthare system is
00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:41.350
totally different than than what we have
00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:44.789
here. And uh you know I don't really
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.510
utilize healthcare all that much at all.
00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:49.190
You know being healthy and young at the
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:50.470
time
00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.070
>> um you know that really ignited me to do
00:18:54.080 --> 00:18:56.070
something there right the the navigation
00:18:56.080 --> 00:18:59.510
and access there there's a lot of room
00:18:59.520 --> 00:19:01.350
for improvement. You know, listen,
00:19:01.360 --> 00:19:03.190
everyone says that access is important,
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.230
right? But I think that we use the word
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.789
so much like in healthcare.
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:09.669
>> Yeah.
00:19:09.679 --> 00:19:11.029
>> We kind of forgot what it actually
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.150
means.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:12.470
>> Yeah.
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:14.310
>> What is it? What does access mean to
00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:16.070
you?
00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:19.590
>> So for me, access is like um you know,
00:19:19.600 --> 00:19:22.310
you have the the walls of the the health
00:19:22.320 --> 00:19:25.350
systems or you doctor's offices, right?
00:19:25.360 --> 00:19:28.870
If you are outside the walls of your
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:30.789
healthcare providers, you could be
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.950
anywhere, right? Trying to reach uh to
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:36.710
figure out what you need to do, whether
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:39.350
it is your prescription refills or you
00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:41.350
have, you know, questions regarding your
00:19:41.360 --> 00:19:43.430
medications or you have billing
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.190
questions, you have symptoms, you want
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.150
to schedule your annual, whatever that
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:51.590
might be. Uh for me, that's access,
00:19:51.600 --> 00:19:54.070
right? you're trying to get something
00:19:54.080 --> 00:19:57.190
done while you are not within the walls
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.430
of your provider.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.029
>> Well, like why hasn't this been solved
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:05.590
already? Like why hasn't why is it like
00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:08.470
why is this still an issue? I feel like
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:10.230
we have the tech, we have talent. Like
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:12.470
what's like what's getting in the way?
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:13.909
Like how come this hasn't been solved
00:20:13.919 --> 00:20:15.350
already?
00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:17.669
>> Yeah. So it's a you know it's a pretty
00:20:17.679 --> 00:20:19.990
complicated problem, right? Uh so I just
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.950
did a presentation with some of our
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:26.549
clients in Atlanta with the u southeast
00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:29.430
primary care partners and we were at the
00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.310
uh healthcare cost and times conference.
00:20:32.320 --> 00:20:35.830
So we are implementing AI at one of
00:20:35.840 --> 00:20:39.830
their sites and uh in the presentation
00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:41.990
we talked about
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.789
um forget about AI for now right just
00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:49.590
for primary care uh large group before
00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:52.549
their call to the agent says hello there
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.510
are 23 million different pathways right
00:20:55.520 --> 00:21:00.470
permutations of uh things that could
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.669
branch out. You said 23 million
00:21:03.679 --> 00:21:06.470
>> 23 million pathways,
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.750
right?
00:21:09.760 --> 00:21:14.149
>> It's mindblowing, right? So imagine all
00:21:14.159 --> 00:21:16.149
these different call types from again,
00:21:16.159 --> 00:21:18.230
you know, scheduling, triaging, people
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:21.190
calling us symptoms and uh you have all
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.710
these visit reasons, right? And then you
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.870
have all these variables from patients
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.510
perspective with uh their demographic
00:21:29.520 --> 00:21:32.789
information, where they live, uh their
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.510
their insurance types,
00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:37.909
um and uh and then you know type of
00:21:37.919 --> 00:21:40.549
conditions that they have and then you
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:42.310
have all the providers with the
00:21:42.320 --> 00:21:44.789
preferences on who they want to see, how
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.590
they want to triage and then all the end
00:21:47.600 --> 00:21:50.470
points, right? the permutations and
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.750
combinations of all that 23 million is
00:21:53.760 --> 00:21:55.029
pretty standard right it might be a
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:56.710
little less for you know specialty
00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.270
groups like although or neurology or you
00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:01.110
know urology
00:22:01.120 --> 00:22:05.510
uh but not much right so that's just
00:22:05.520 --> 00:22:08.070
entry point
00:22:08.080 --> 00:22:11.590
>> and you know the traditionally people
00:22:11.600 --> 00:22:13.510
have these binders right or tribe of
00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:16.710
knowledge and they have to memorize it
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.350
all they have a lot of job aids to be
00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:22.950
able to help patients on the phone and
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.029
uh that's where we came in right and our
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.230
AI can do most of it now but this is
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.350
healthcare this is not just all about AI
00:22:31.360 --> 00:22:34.390
this is not all just technology right
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.789
there the human touch is so critical
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:40.870
>> yeah I think
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:41.990
>> there's one thing that I really
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.669
appreciate about you and it's that
00:22:43.679 --> 00:22:45.590
you're you don't talk about you know AI
00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:47.750
replacing people I think you know I've
00:22:47.760 --> 00:22:48.470
heard
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:49.990
say this numerous times, but you talk
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.950
about helping people. Where where do you
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.669
think that healthc care is getting AI
00:22:55.679 --> 00:22:58.470
wrong right now?
00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.390
Uh a lot of um a lot of hype and a lot
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:03.990
of
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.149
uh overpromises on oh pretty soon we're
00:23:08.159 --> 00:23:09.590
going to get rid of all your call center
00:23:09.600 --> 00:23:14.310
stat, right? I think that is people who
00:23:14.320 --> 00:23:16.149
say that have no idea what they're
00:23:16.159 --> 00:23:17.990
talking about, right? they don't
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.310
understand healthcare and you know we've
00:23:20.320 --> 00:23:23.669
been doing AI for a long time like this
00:23:23.679 --> 00:23:27.590
is our first product uh 15 years ago was
00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:30.470
AI products right and of course it
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.710
wasn't really uh there was like before
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.230
the LLMs and and we have all that and uh
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.510
even now with the advancement of AI
00:23:39.520 --> 00:23:42.549
human touch is so important right there
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.029
are people who really need to be
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.230
transferred to a live agent or life care
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.590
team member. Otherwise, that could be
00:23:51.600 --> 00:23:52.870
that would have been very devastating
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.510
for the health outcome, right?
00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:57.669
>> People don't think about it and all they
00:23:57.679 --> 00:23:59.590
could talk about is like cutting the
00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:02.070
bottom line and getting rid of the uh
00:24:02.080 --> 00:24:04.070
the cost and the agents so that you
00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:06.870
could save money, right? You know, they
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:10.149
forget about AI could really enhance
00:24:10.159 --> 00:24:13.590
patient safety. AI could really save
00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:16.230
lives because you know the good thing
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.190
about AI right the human agents they
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:21.590
could overwhelm trying to process 20
00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:23.830
million different pathways AI could do
00:24:23.840 --> 00:24:27.590
that just like this right and once you
00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:29.269
find somebody who really needs to speak
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:30.870
with the life agent who needs a human
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.909
touch has to be transferred right so
00:24:33.919 --> 00:24:36.870
what AI is really good is figuring out
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:40.710
which one needs a human touch
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.789
Right? And we don't talk about that
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:45.190
enough in our AI conversation and
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:46.710
healthcare access. Right? That's what
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.350
really bothers me because why don't we
00:24:49.360 --> 00:24:50.630
talk about it? Because it's very
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.269
difficult. It's extremely difficult to
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:54.789
do it. Right? We've been doing this for
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.510
a long time and we won't stop. You know,
00:24:57.520 --> 00:25:00.710
now we're like almost there. And uh that
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.990
is a really critical piece to solve real
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.789
problems in healthcare access.
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:08.630
>> Yeah.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.190
seems like with the it's win or lost in
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:13.830
the handoffs. Talk about the handoff,
00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:16.470
when to hand off, when not to hand off,
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.149
the complexities around that. I feel
00:25:18.159 --> 00:25:20.149
like there's there's a lot of misnomers.
00:25:20.159 --> 00:25:21.990
I think you we talked about it kind of
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:24.310
offline around sort of the you know
00:25:24.320 --> 00:25:27.669
these rappers and and how it can be kind
00:25:27.679 --> 00:25:30.870
of when it fails, it fails
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:33.110
confidently fails as if it's right, but
00:25:33.120 --> 00:25:36.870
it fails. Can you speak to that?
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.350
>> Yeah. and also the uh the hallucination
00:25:39.360 --> 00:25:41.669
right so two problems there that that I
00:25:41.679 --> 00:25:45.990
see so one is just uh AI itself and a
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.390
lot of people are having you know some
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.070
chat GPT rappers to
00:25:52.080 --> 00:25:54.710
automate healthcare access
00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:57.110
the problem with that is healthcare is
00:25:57.120 --> 00:25:58.950
very local healthcare is very
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.110
personalized not just for patients right
00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:04.310
that's why our AI is built on top of our
00:26:04.320 --> 00:26:07.669
CRM uh you know from healthcare care,
00:26:07.679 --> 00:26:09.830
customer relationship management. A lot
00:26:09.840 --> 00:26:11.350
of people stop that, oh yeah, these
00:26:11.360 --> 00:26:15.190
patients are consumers, right? And our
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.070
construct for consumer in healthcare is
00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:20.470
totally different. For us, the you know
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:23.110
cons the construct consumer uh includes
00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:26.870
patients. Providers are huge consumers
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.310
in healthcare and they have way more
00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:32.149
personalization and way more
00:26:32.159 --> 00:26:34.390
requirements and complexities than than
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:36.789
patients, right? just to practice their
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:39.990
medicine. This is how healthcare as a
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.870
system is designed currently. Right? We
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:43.990
can talk about
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:45.590
>> the future healthcare but there's a
00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:48.470
whole new podcast episode but here and
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.590
now that's how we are that's our current
00:26:51.600 --> 00:26:54.470
setup for our healthcare system right
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:56.070
>> and then on top of that there are
00:26:56.080 --> 00:26:59.110
resources whether it is a a uh you know
00:26:59.120 --> 00:27:03.110
operation room or CT scan or mamograms
00:27:03.120 --> 00:27:05.830
right these are also super personalized
00:27:05.840 --> 00:27:07.990
based on the location based on you know
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.909
patients demographic based on the
00:27:09.919 --> 00:27:13.029
providers how they want to treat Right.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:15.909
So we have
00:27:15.919 --> 00:27:18.149
data and intelligence. We call it
00:27:18.159 --> 00:27:19.990
healthcare access intelligence for
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:21.510
patients, providers and all the
00:27:21.520 --> 00:27:25.350
resources, right? So just like you know
00:27:25.360 --> 00:27:27.510
you know the 23 million different
00:27:27.520 --> 00:27:31.110
pathways, right? We have millions of uh
00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:32.789
healthcare access intelligence data
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:35.590
points that we could use when we are
00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:37.830
helping patients while they're calling
00:27:37.840 --> 00:27:39.430
or while they're going through your
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:41.750
digital front door on your website,
00:27:41.760 --> 00:27:42.870
right?
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:44.789
So
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.630
um you have to be able to marry
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:50.950
you know LLM with very you know
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:53.190
generative type of approach and
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.269
conversational AI so that you have a
00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.870
very personal very humanlike AI talking
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:01.590
to you or chatting with you at the same
00:28:01.600 --> 00:28:04.950
time when it comes to medical decision
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.389
making on guiding you to the right
00:28:08.399 --> 00:28:10.310
provider at the right care at the right
00:28:10.320 --> 00:28:11.990
location it has to be deter
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.830
deterministic. It has to be uh down to
00:28:15.840 --> 00:28:19.190
the detail of who you have to see, how
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.350
they want to schedule uh this type of
00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:23.350
appointment for you as a patient. you
00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:25.350
know Mike's Clementino
00:28:25.360 --> 00:28:27.669
>> who lives in Chicago right in your
00:28:27.679 --> 00:28:29.269
proximity based on what you're
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.990
experiencing plus type of insurance that
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:36.070
you have and uh all those have to be
00:28:36.080 --> 00:28:39.110
determin deterministically
00:28:39.120 --> 00:28:42.310
um guided you through to your outcome
00:28:42.320 --> 00:28:44.230
right it can't just be generic LLM
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:46.310
trying to like all right oh it's it's
00:28:46.320 --> 00:28:48.470
you know 90% probability that you're
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:51.110
going to actually see this provider
00:28:51.120 --> 00:28:51.269
but
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:52.789
>> it doesn't work in healthcare
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:55.190
right? It's not probabilistic.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:57.830
>> So that's one thing. Another thing is
00:28:57.840 --> 00:29:02.070
the um once you have this you know
00:29:02.080 --> 00:29:04.789
combining the marriage of you know AI
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:08.310
and uh you know your probabilistic
00:29:08.320 --> 00:29:11.029
nature of AI and then your very
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:13.029
deterministic nature of you know
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:16.789
diagnostic and you know the and triaging
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:20.389
>> and uh the the second part is the the
00:29:20.399 --> 00:29:23.029
human piece right if you can just
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:25.990
schedule your well visit your you know
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.470
annual you know, simple acute stuff,
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:30.789
great, right? You can refill
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:32.149
prescription, great, right? We're doing
00:29:32.159 --> 00:29:33.909
that autonomously
00:29:33.919 --> 00:29:37.350
um as we speak or, you know, many many
00:29:37.360 --> 00:29:40.950
calls. However, there are times that,
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:43.269
you know, you have
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:45.590
complicated symptoms that you need a
00:29:45.600 --> 00:29:49.430
human being uh to to be involved at the
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.549
time. Not only we have to transfer you
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:54.870
to speak with a live agent or some of
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.190
the care team members, we have to be
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:00.310
able to transfer the context. Otherwise,
00:30:00.320 --> 00:30:03.190
you know, AI already um our AI already
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:05.830
collected your demographic information,
00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:07.750
your insurance information and what
00:30:07.760 --> 00:30:09.750
you're experiencing right now. It's like
00:30:09.760 --> 00:30:12.310
you spend two minutes on our AI giving
00:30:12.320 --> 00:30:14.710
all the information, but all you know
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:16.710
down the road we figured that oh, you
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:18.789
know, you have you're having a shortness
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:20.870
of breath. Oh, you got to speak with
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.789
somebody right away, right? When you're
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:24.549
a transfer, you don't want to repeat all
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:26.630
the information all over again, right?
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.590
The context have to be there,
00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:33.029
>> right? So, and not just a little AI tool
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:36.230
or chatbot that sitting somewhere and
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:39.510
has no visibility or transparency
00:30:39.520 --> 00:30:42.230
uh with your call center and your you
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.789
know, you know, call operations, it's a
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:49.029
big problem, right? So having that you
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:51.029
know transfer you speaking with the live
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:55.110
agent plus all your contacts transfer
00:30:55.120 --> 00:30:58.070
>> that is not a technology right that is a
00:30:58.080 --> 00:31:00.870
operation that is your workflow right
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.430
you only do that once you are helping
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.990
the entire call center and when you are
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:09.110
helping the whole clinic workflows right
00:31:09.120 --> 00:31:11.190
you can't just be a little cute AI tool
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:13.350
out there doing you can't do that right
00:31:13.360 --> 00:31:16.710
again solving difficult problems
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.389
That's the only way that you can have a
00:31:18.399 --> 00:31:21.430
meaningful outcome. And you know, at the
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:23.190
end of the day, you get what you put
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.230
into, right? If you want to solve
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.430
problems like the way it should be and
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:31.029
you got to put in the work, man. It's
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:32.870
hard work anywhere you look at it. You
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.830
cannot just, you know, just you can do
00:31:35.840 --> 00:31:37.110
whatever you want, but at the end of the
00:31:37.120 --> 00:31:38.710
day, you got to solve this really
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:40.630
massive, oddly, you know, difficult
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.710
problems. Listen, you you you've been in
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:44.870
the game for a while, you know, north of
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:47.909
a decade, you know, at this.
00:31:47.919 --> 00:31:50.549
>> And look, founders tell everyone, you
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.070
know, about the winds, you know, after
00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:56.230
they happen. I think they they rarely
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.830
talk about the moments where
00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:02.870
they weren't sure if it was going to
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:07.350
work. Was there ever a moment uh with
00:32:07.360 --> 00:32:09.909
Kona where you just sort of questioned
00:32:09.919 --> 00:32:11.430
everything?
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:14.149
Yeah, you know, it it happens quite a
00:32:14.159 --> 00:32:16.470
few times in the past. I think it
00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:18.870
happens to all of us that you know what
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:21.029
this is really hard. Why are we doing
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:24.470
this? Right? Why are you uh spending all
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:26.789
your waking hours trying to solve this,
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:29.029
you know, this particular problem? You
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.350
know, those things come. But, uh, at the
00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:33.669
end of the day, uh, you know, that's
00:32:33.679 --> 00:32:35.990
where you have to have a, um, again,
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.070
back to the vision. You have to really
00:32:38.080 --> 00:32:40.870
believe in your vision. You have to
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:43.430
understand the impact that you are
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.710
creating in healthcare, right?
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:49.509
>> Has has that vision changed and modified
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:51.750
since since you guys started early on or
00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:54.230
has it been a sort of a steady constant?
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:55.830
>> Oh, we just want to create the most
00:32:55.840 --> 00:32:57.590
personalized experience, you know,
00:32:57.600 --> 00:32:59.350
connecting patient providers in the most
00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:01.750
personalized way possible. That's been
00:33:01.760 --> 00:33:04.149
our vision since day one. Nothing
00:33:04.159 --> 00:33:05.830
changed, you know. It's like we rode
00:33:05.840 --> 00:33:10.549
through waves of you know um you know
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:13.269
hype right right now the big thing is AI
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:16.870
right but our vision is still the same
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:22.149
and uh but I have to say though AI made
00:33:22.159 --> 00:33:24.230
our vision
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.590
more achievable and more real
00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:32.950
>> and it is a enabler that's been missing
00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:34.789
and now all of a sudden the orchestra
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.029
ation that we've been talking about, we
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:41.430
can just complete the full circle in the
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:43.909
most courageous way possible with the
00:33:43.919 --> 00:33:48.230
with AI. So, I think this is a this is a
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.350
missing piece and it's all all here now
00:33:51.360 --> 00:33:54.549
and uh you know like I just I felt like
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:55.830
we just started the company all over
00:33:55.840 --> 00:33:58.549
again, right, with the launch of our AI
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.509
product. So, it's a new found passion.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:04.149
Everything just feels like so fresh and
00:34:04.159 --> 00:34:07.909
new and exciting all over again and it
00:34:07.919 --> 00:34:11.750
it's like a fun times all over again.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.069
>> It's like a renaissance.
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:15.990
>> Yeah, that's the word that I I was
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.470
looking for. You're exactly right.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:19.349
>> Yeah.
00:34:19.359 --> 00:34:21.030
>> So, this been missing the whole time,
00:34:21.040 --> 00:34:22.710
right? It's like we were there but we
00:34:22.720 --> 00:34:25.430
weren't quite there and this was the
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.829
missing piece in the puzzle,
00:34:27.839 --> 00:34:29.829
right? And boom, it just like everything
00:34:29.839 --> 00:34:33.430
starts clicking. It's amazing.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:35.270
>> You you said this a few times earlier
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:36.710
on. I'm just kind of going back to
00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:38.790
because you said, look, you're building
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.230
in healthcare.
00:34:40.240 --> 00:34:40.550
>> Yeah.
00:34:40.560 --> 00:34:42.950
>> It requires patience,
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:44.310
but you mentioned around surfing.
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:46.389
Surfing requires
00:34:46.399 --> 00:34:47.990
a lot of patience. Have you thought
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.990
about like the connection between those
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:52.869
two things? I mean, is is patience been
00:34:52.879 --> 00:34:55.990
sort of natively embedded within you
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.589
because of what the ocean sort of taught
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:00.310
you? I mean, is is now patience in
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.349
essence a competitive advantage for you?
00:35:03.359 --> 00:35:06.470
>> Yeah. And uh not just that um like you
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:08.550
know that's a you know gives it gives me
00:35:08.560 --> 00:35:12.790
goosebumps here. Um patience definitely
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:18.150
it's uh was key here, right? But another
00:35:18.160 --> 00:35:21.349
thing is like if you were to you know
00:35:21.359 --> 00:35:24.550
like you look at life right sometime
00:35:24.560 --> 00:35:26.550
there a bunch of dots on your on your
00:35:26.560 --> 00:35:28.790
board and you have no idea why they're
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.910
there right although things are just
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:34.550
happening like it's no rhyme or reason
00:35:34.560 --> 00:35:38.550
no rhyme or reason but after a while you
00:35:38.560 --> 00:35:41.030
just start you look look back and look
00:35:41.040 --> 00:35:43.589
at things in perspective you see these
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:45.270
dots connecting right
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:47.670
>> yeah yeah you the reasons why they they
00:35:47.680 --> 00:35:49.750
happened to you in the first place.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:51.190
>> It's always looking back. It's never
00:35:51.200 --> 00:35:52.470
looking forward. It's always looking
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:53.670
back.
00:35:53.680 --> 00:35:55.750
>> Exactly. That's a again that's a patient
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.790
part, right? So the fact that you know
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:02.069
we built all these uh difficult things
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:05.670
uh we built the entire CRM and now
00:36:05.680 --> 00:36:08.310
because of everything we built around
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:12.069
these workflow automations CRM handling
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.670
all these complex clinical workflows
00:36:15.680 --> 00:36:18.390
and all that hard work is getting paid
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:20.310
off right now with our AI right we have
00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:24.390
a huge unique differentiation on how we
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:26.390
orchestrate things Mhm.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:30.390
>> And it's it's it's like magic, right? So
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:32.150
>> all this hard work is just being paid
00:36:32.160 --> 00:36:36.150
off, right, with this um the AI roll
00:36:36.160 --> 00:36:37.910
out.
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.510
>> Yeah. There's there's something ironic
00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:41.990
about you spending your whole entire
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:45.990
career sort of building intelligence
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.910
into machines.
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:49.430
But I'm just wondering here as we're
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.390
talking, I'm like, well, what's what has
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.790
building Kona
00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:00.069
taught you about humans?
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.710
Um, you know, kind of So, you and I were
00:37:02.720 --> 00:37:04.950
just talking about jiu-jitsu the other
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.910
day, right? Your your sons jiu-jitsu.
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:08.310
>> Yeah.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.430
>> And you know, jiu-jitsu is hard, right?
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.069
I got into jiu-jitsu because of my kids,
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:15.910
>> right? You know, I've been I love
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:17.430
martial arts. I've been training martial
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:19.109
arts my whole life you know traditional
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:20.230
martial arts
00:37:20.240 --> 00:37:23.190
>> and get into MMA uh Hawaii is like a
00:37:23.200 --> 00:37:25.270
birthplace of MMA right a lot of
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:26.230
different
00:37:26.240 --> 00:37:27.349
>> so hooked
00:37:27.359 --> 00:37:30.230
>> in you know and uh when I was in Hawaii
00:37:30.240 --> 00:37:32.470
MMA was so fascinating but when I moved
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.589
to the east coast that you know in DC
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:38.230
>> and uh I started training jiu-jitsu with
00:37:38.240 --> 00:37:41.270
my kids I'm just being a jiu-jitsu dad
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:45.829
and it's really difficult right it's so
00:37:45.839 --> 00:37:49.270
complex you're playing a chess game like
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:51.510
in a very rapid pace in a very very
00:37:51.520 --> 00:37:55.750
violent fashion right and uh you know
00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:01.109
the healthc care is just like that
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:04.870
right it's very complex very difficult
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:08.470
and you cannot just quit
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:10.630
>> if you quit then you know it's like all
00:38:10.640 --> 00:38:13.430
your it's just again it's all over right
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:19.349
so Um, you know, a lot of surfers are
00:38:19.359 --> 00:38:21.510
drawn into jiu-jitsu and a lot of
00:38:21.520 --> 00:38:23.430
jiu-jitsu guys are drawn into surfing.
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:26.790
But so, right, it's it's all kind of
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:28.470
related in my opinion.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:29.750
>> Yeah, there's all they're all
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:30.870
>> the whole culture.
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:34.870
>> Yeah, the whole culture uh is very uh
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.190
interesting. And uh since you know I
00:38:37.200 --> 00:38:38.470
can't really surf like I used to be in
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.870
Hawaii. So now like my new addiction, my
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:44.230
outlet is jiu-jitsu. That's where, you
00:38:44.240 --> 00:38:46.390
know, you can really get a little bit of
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.829
balance, right? You go there, you train,
00:38:49.839 --> 00:38:52.710
you spar, and uh for me, it's also a
00:38:52.720 --> 00:38:54.230
good way to bond with my kids. I see
00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:56.710
them training, they're sweating, they're
00:38:56.720 --> 00:38:58.950
crying, they're bleeding, and I'm doing
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:00.550
the same thing, right? They see that,
00:39:00.560 --> 00:39:03.190
you know, I'm not just I practice what I
00:39:03.200 --> 00:39:06.630
preach. um they see me in BS. So, you
00:39:06.640 --> 00:39:08.630
know, the reason I brought up jiu-jitsu
00:39:08.640 --> 00:39:10.870
is because um
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:13.270
>> you know, just like entrepreneurship and
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:15.510
healthcare access, you know, you go
00:39:15.520 --> 00:39:18.310
through some really tough stuff and
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:20.310
really, you know, your very ugly set of
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:23.829
you comes out going through these tough
00:39:23.839 --> 00:39:26.630
times, right? And same thing with
00:39:26.640 --> 00:39:28.790
jiu-jitsu, like a lot of your
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:31.109
insecurity, you know, really ugly side
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:32.710
of you that you didn't even know that
00:39:32.720 --> 00:39:35.030
you had it, right? It's going to come on
00:39:35.040 --> 00:39:36.630
in the moment and you got to deal with
00:39:36.640 --> 00:39:40.550
that, right? And uh it's
00:39:40.560 --> 00:39:42.950
it's humbling, right? It's super
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.470
humbling and uh so, you know, and
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:48.390
jiu-jitsu
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:52.390
really helps um in in a you know, a
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:56.150
business life. So that you know you're
00:39:56.160 --> 00:39:58.790
more balanced and once you come out of
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.270
it right you're like your mind is just
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:04.630
blank and it it you know really uh helps
00:40:04.640 --> 00:40:07.910
you think clearly and uh you know so
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.870
much of that patience and humility and
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:13.510
and you know plays a big dividend while
00:40:13.520 --> 00:40:15.430
you're building your companies you know.
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.630
>> Yeah. So for, you know, we're going to
00:40:18.640 --> 00:40:20.390
wrap up here shortly, but but for every
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:21.589
entrepreneur that's listening because
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:22.790
you touched on something I think is
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.630
super important. Maybe they see a
00:40:24.640 --> 00:40:27.190
massive problem, you know, but maybe
00:40:27.200 --> 00:40:29.270
maybe it feels like that that wave is
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.190
too big, you know, figuratively.
00:40:31.200 --> 00:40:31.750
>> Yeah.
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:36.390
>> What what advice do you give them?
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:39.589
>> You know, it's uh you know, it's not for
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.390
the faint of heart, right?
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:46.069
But uh once you drop in, then you got to
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:49.589
commit, right? If you are,
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:51.510
you know, if you want to ride a a big
00:40:51.520 --> 00:40:54.870
wave and it's so rewarding, so
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.710
life-changing,
00:40:56.720 --> 00:40:58.230
and
00:40:58.240 --> 00:41:01.109
it's you can't just
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.790
half ass it, right? You pedal,
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:07.430
you wait for the right moment, you time
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:10.470
it, and at the end, you got to just jump
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:13.750
in, jump right in, right? The commitment
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:16.150
is everything. You just got to commit to
00:41:16.160 --> 00:41:19.270
everything you do and just 100%.
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.390
And then, you know,
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.349
the the nature will take over. Off the
00:41:25.359 --> 00:41:27.750
bat, you have no control, right? You
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.990
just got to ride it.
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:31.030
>> Yeah.
00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:33.750
What is uh give give a little
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:35.109
commercial. What's the best way for
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:37.270
people to follow you to follow the work
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.870
that Kiana is doing? Um yeah, floor is
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:41.990
yours.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:44.550
>> Yeah, kahel.com
00:41:44.560 --> 00:41:46.630
and you can follow me on LinkedIn. Uh
00:41:46.640 --> 00:41:50.390
just okar and uh yeah, if you wanted to
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:52.309
reach out and talk about surfing,
00:41:52.319 --> 00:41:54.309
jiu-jitsu, and solving difficult
00:41:54.319 --> 00:41:57.589
problems in healthcare, I'm all ears.
00:41:57.599 --> 00:41:59.750
Things that I'm very passionate about.
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:01.670
Yeah, man. I just want to say uh thank
00:42:01.680 --> 00:42:03.030
you. Thank you for just sort of your
00:42:03.040 --> 00:42:05.270
rigorous honesty, for sharing a little
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.270
bit about your story about you and the
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:08.470
things that you care about that you're
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:10.390
doing. I think that what makes your
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:12.550
story interesting is, you know, whether
00:42:12.560 --> 00:42:14.309
you're in the ocean waiting for the next
00:42:14.319 --> 00:42:18.710
wave or developing something,
00:42:18.720 --> 00:42:20.870
you know, there's a common thread to all
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.109
of this is that you're actually trying
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:24.790
to understand what's going on beneath
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:27.510
the surface. So when you mentioned about
00:42:27.520 --> 00:42:29.750
being patient, you know, I've been sort
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:31.190
of sitting with that is like, you know,
00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:33.030
sometimes
00:42:33.040 --> 00:42:36.630
it's happening for a particular reason.
00:42:36.640 --> 00:42:38.950
The best surfers,
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:40.870
they know it's never really about
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:42.790
controlling the wave. It's it's about
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:44.790
learning how to read it. So your your
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:47.270
ability to sort of recognize these
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:49.670
patterns and like you said, dropping
00:42:49.680 --> 00:42:51.829
into a big wave, like you're when you're
00:42:51.839 --> 00:42:53.430
dropping in, you're you're fully
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:55.990
committed. So, you've been on this wave
00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:58.470
and you're fully committed. Uh, and I
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:00.550
think that's interesting. So, for those
00:43:00.560 --> 00:43:02.309
of you, if you've been listening and you
00:43:02.319 --> 00:43:06.470
found this to be useful and helpful,
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:08.550
would you mind sharing it or maybe
00:43:08.560 --> 00:43:10.069
sending it to someone that you care
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.630
about that you think would find uh value
00:43:12.640 --> 00:43:15.910
in it? And if there is maybe a guest
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:17.430
that you want us to kind of have come on
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:19.750
the show, let us know. Or if there's a
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:22.390
topic you want us to explore,
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:26.550
let us know. And again this is a
00:43:26.560 --> 00:43:28.309
interactive community. It's not just
00:43:28.319 --> 00:43:29.990
about content but it's it's a living
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.230
breathing thing. So thank you so much
00:43:32.240 --> 00:43:35.190
for listening Okar. Great to have you on
00:43:35.200 --> 00:43:37.190
and please everyone keep building with
00:43:37.200 --> 00:43:40.069
purpose and we'll see you next time on
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:41.430
the Advancing Healthcare Innovation
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:42.950
Show.
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.119
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