Developing a Nuanced Relationship to Technology with Dr. Dean Burnett

Ez Bridgman: Hello, Doctor Dean Vernett. Welcome to the Shadow Playground.
Dean Burnett: Thank you for having me, much appreciated.
Ez Bridgman: I'm looking forward to today's episode because we are going to be diving into something really exciting. A couple of exciting things. First, our brains, and you are a brain expert, and also the way our brains
Dean Burnett: Hmm, apparently.
Ez Bridgman: react to technology. And there's so much content right now being developed about how technology is affecting us. So I'm really looking forward just to hearing your perspectives.
Dean Burnett: Hmm, cool, yeah, happy to help if I can. Some people may disagree with my perspective, but this is the only one I've got, so I've got to share that one.
Ez Bridgman: Well, it's the only one you have, and so and we are w this is the one that we want to hear. And so there as I was mentioning, there is so much information out there right now about how technology is affecting our lives, our minds, and both the pleasure and sort of potential pitfalls and suffering from these tools. What got you interested in looking at the effects of screens and technology on the brain?
Dean Burnett: It sort of became an unavoidable conversation really. Like it's so much part of everyday life and because I'm sort of like a general go-to brain guy that sort of just became something which came up again and again and again. know, like parents are concerned that children are too long on screens and et cetera, et cetera. But because I've been sort of writing about brains, brain science, latest brain concerns for the media for a long time now, when I'm talking, you know, my first book was published 10 years ago and I was writing for like five years before that. So. I do remember the earlier versions of the tech panic. dug out an old article recently about the real big concerns around the Facebook phone. If you remember that one, there was a time when Facebook were going to release their own phone. they go, children are going to be spending too much time on Facebook and they'll be brain rotted. I think we can sort of say, there was a lot of concern about children are going to be corrupted by Facebook. We need to get children off Facebook. Mission accomplished, I guess, because don't think anyone under 60 uses it really that much anymore. But yeah, so like the conversation has been shifting and changing and up and down, in and out of this all time. And somebody who studies like actually sorts of brain, that's really fascinating to me. But obviously now like the venture of the smartphone was obviously a big game changer in that now we have a screen with us pretty much 24 seven, know, like going to sleep some of the times, but not enough thanks to the phone. So yeah, there are multiple ways in which modern technology sort of interacts with the brain and that's not gonna affect. bad, all good, just effects and yeah, it just became something impossible to avoid talking about. So I thought I'd better talk about it as and when necessary. So here we are.
Ez Bridgman: So here we are, and I'm hearing what you're saying as well. There's been these different crises at different moments of time when new technology comes and there's kind of this reaction of like, no, this is gonna have this huge impact. How just curious thinking about your own childhood growing up in relationship to technology, how is that just different in terms of what you experienced and when you what you see today with children and the way that they're growing up with technology?
Dean Burnett: Yeah, I would be what you call a digital immigrant. know, the internet arrived. The online world happened one after I was born. And as we say, like people who went from an analog world to a digital world, those are digital immigrants and people who were just born post internet and anyone like sort of 25 and they are like digital natives. And I have my own kids, like I got 14 and 11 year old and I try to tell them. When I was your age, there was no internet. And they can't quite fathom that. It's like I'm telling them, when I was your age, there were no rocks, there were no trees. Shut up, of course there were. It's just always been a thing to them. So obviously it's gonna shift your perspective. And it does obviously give a different approach to how the world works. Just understanding for someone much younger than me and much older. mean, I'm not that much older. I do remember arriving when I was still in school, I was quite young. I'm sort of like immigrant to a country but still young enough to learn the language and feel like a native so I'm not totally at sea. But I do sort of, you know, I remember the concerns. Like when I was like five, six, I remember my parents, my grandparents saying, you sit too close to that TV, you'll get square eyes. That was a big concern. I think some parents still use that, know, stay if only you have square eyes. And even as a kid I was thinking, no, I won't. How is that gonna happen? Like is it? The rays from the cathodes are going to just interfere with the shape of my skull. That doesn't sound right. But it turns out I was very short sighted as a kid. I was just sitting very close to the TV, like right up to like that. And they thought I was, I don't know they thought I was doing. I thought I was just being naughty. was just being so like, trying to absorb as much gamma radiation from those 80s television sets as possible. And those things did seem dangerous. So the static that came off them, they're like, boop, boop. Like the really loud noises they made, the humming, the heat off them. So. I probably wasn't too close, but I just couldn't see. So I think that early experience gave me sort of, I want to say distrust, always an eagic suspicion when adults say like, technology is bad. Yeah, I've heard that before, but it turns out I was short sighted and they were wrong. So that was a very formative experience. And I sort of was an older kid teenager, doing the whole console panic. Video games are... destroying children, that was like the new thing for a while. Like late 90s, that was a big concern. Like parents, they're like, my God, these new video games, like they're on a CD now. You can see people in the shower, but you can't, you I have been very aware of the panics. There's always one coming along. Now it's more omnipresent, because technology's more omnipresent. It's not like an old 16-bit console you couldn't carry around with you. You had to play it in front of... the big TV and so turn on and off and you couldn't save so wouldn't. So there was a lot to do. It a bit more limited then. So I understand why it's more of a omnipresent concern now. But yeah, it's interesting to see how things are different but also how things aren't that different when you sort of think back to the concerns you had when I was growing up. So yeah, it's the same sort of concerns, suspicions, some might say paranoia, but now writ large, you know, and it's always there because technology is always there. And think that's having an interesting effect as well. So yeah, it's been an interesting comparison from my youth to now. But I'll also say it with my parents, my mother's one of those ones who will put on Facebook, photo share if your child was like this, children playing outside, having a great time. And not like this, children indoors with their phones in the dark. Don't pretend that you sort of had, you could have had phones, that you just resisted them because of model fiber. They didn't exist. If you did, you would have had them. I'm far more sort of relentlessly rational about stuff like this and it does tend to annoy people but it's my job I suppose.
Ez Bridgman: Well it's good to have sets over Rational thinking, and it sounds like that was there from a young age. And something really interesting what you're saying. Yeah. And something really interesting
Dean Burnett: Apparently so,
Ez Bridgman: what you're saying is just this almost this metaphor of like immigrating to the land of technology or how your children are almost like, what? No internet? Like it's how it's being in this completely different reality. So we'll get into some of the sort of the the darker sides, the shadow sides, things that are kind of what the technology is doing to our brains, potentially. But I also wanted to just start with the delightful side. What what is that screens give us that it's so delightful, so pleasurable, because people love television, movies, video games, cell phones. What is happening from just like a brain perspective with these technologies?
Dean Burnett: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different things there. mean, like, obviously, a movie is a of a story being told in a sort of very, very sensory stimulating way. And that's something we enjoy anyway. like the brain loves fantasy world, sort of experience new situations, relate to other people. It's something we are sort of evolved to do. a very, very social species. So it's ways of doing that. The brain loves a narrative because it's got structure and patterns and brains love all that stuff. And Ultimately, like the modern technology phone screens, they give us much more access to that than we've ever had before. So you can find something you want to see or will enjoy at the touch of a button. that's, you know, that's in terms of just like pure straightforward reward and engagement. That's positive. The dark side of the phone is usually emphasized, but there's so many positives to them too. Like, you know, the social media thing is, you know, there's lots to worry about, lots to criticize, but... We are now seeing an era where people are more connected to others than ever before. The vulnerable people particularly, like our new, divergent people, they have communities now. They have support networks. They have a voice, which they didn't have before in the past because the real world was not set up for them. Still isn't, but the online world is far more accommodating. lot of research shows that new, divergent people, autistic people tend to prefer to communicate via screens because it's more ordered, more structured. There's far less chance of someone judging them or... having some sort of social faux pas because you're not on the same sort of wavelength as other people. So it's opened up the world to so many different people. And not just like neurodivergent or mentally unwell people or anything like that, but people from small communities or restrictive communities who would usually be sort of peer pressured or family pressured into behaving certain ways and not being themselves. And now they can express themselves and find support of people thanks to technology. And so that's, that is genuinely beneficial to give people a community and people have a lot more creative space now. Like there's lots of, you know, concern about, you know, just constant YouTube stuff, just polluting kids' brains. But now everyone has a platform and everyone has the potential to create something. You do see a lot more inspiring stuff, a lot more artwork being put out there. You it's not great if it gets nicked and stolen or repurposed, but people have a platform to put themselves front and center, which they never had before. So that's. That can have a lot of positives. in terms of just the cognitive abilities, there's certain research, the Fairbaird Research Show, is that if you engage in challenging and varied activities and tasks and puzzles or make your brain do constant variable work, you tend to retain your faculties. You tend to sort of keep it sharp. lot of people think, you just do word searches or crosswords. That keeps your brain, keeps you intelligent. That makes you smarter. It makes you better at doing those things, but it's a very sort of closed loop skill. It's a very sort of limited set of mental functions you need. It's a word search, it's a crossword, it's a puzzle, it's a Sudoku. Those are all good things, but they engage very, very sort of narrow brain parameters, whereas things like the modern video games, like the AAA games, all the puzzles and the questing and the side quests and the different challenges and the crafting and stuff. That is presenting people with lots of different problems to solve. And that does seem to be the best way of keeping your brain intact, keeping it sort of sharp and mentally attuned. And that is nothing to be sniffed at, especially as we've seen people who were born in the sort AAA video game era getting older, and there's a good chance that they won't lose their cognitive faculties that the older generation did because they're still using them. This idea that video games are just... just numb your mind. don't. A lot of they do the exact opposite. yeah, there lots of positives to be taken from modern technology, which don't often get talked about.
Ez Bridgman: Yeah, really interesting to just to think hear you speak about this, how people can be connected, how it can help neurodivergent people, autistic people. There's this platform for sharing great ideas, the opportunity to connect, keeping your mind sharp. And so these are all great things to hear. And then if we go to the other side of the equation where have just parents who are really concerned about any screen time at all, you have people saying this is completely shifting our relationship to dopamine, this is making people are addicted to scrolling, there's like terms like like doom scrolling. Could you speak a little bit about the other side of things of you know people that are really criticizing or just seeing the said like the I guess the issues with these technologies?
Dean Burnett: Yeah, totally. There's loads of criticisms about modern technology and my sort of stance is I try to push back against that not because it's necessarily wrong, but because it completely ignores the other side too, which is important to take into account. The overall picture is nuanced, not all black or all white or any of those things. And I don't think that necessarily helps. And I can see why parents are concerned because obviously we are very much in uncharted waters with kids who were raised from birth to now who have had phones the time. That's never happened in history. technically don't know what that means or what that does. It might do nothing, it might do cause lasting damage. We're very much in a, okay, what's gonna happen here situation, which obviously is gonna cause a lot of stress and anxiety, which is totally valid. But yeah, there are genuine things to worry about. I think one thing that doesn't get mentioned enough is the physical consequences of constant technology use. Those are probably the most apparent because... Even things like if you're constantly on your phone, you are just constantly slouching. And when you're a young teenager or an older child, your body is growing, it's developing. And this is a key point when you should be as active as possible, doing as much a wide range as possible and moving around as much. So if you're just constantly hunched over with your phone, you can have lasting harm, but lasting deficiencies or lasting changes which are suboptimal. Let's go with that then. your back doesn't develop as right or your shoulders don't... Those are going to cause lasting issues because your body is its manable state and you're not using it as much as you should. Because you've got, know, technology does not require much physical effort. That's one of the sort of key appeals to it on the subconscious level. I can have all this entertainment. I can have all this connection. I can have all this interaction. And I don't, barely have to move. Your brain is very, very, very, very conscious or subconscious, very attuned to wasting resources. So anything which provides maximum benefit for... minimum effort, we tend to sort of instinctively like that because it means we aren't going to spend anything to gain a big outcome. So it's very appealing in those terms alone. my wife works with optometry and she's like, the cases of myopia, shortness, are really going through the roof because similar thing, when you're young, your eyes are developing too, your eyes are growing. Normally you look at things in lots of different distances. So your eyes are constantly focusing in and out and back and forth. But if you've got like, small screen four inches away, that's all you look at, then your eyes don't get that sort of training, they don't get that range of focusing which allows your eyes to develop properly. So you get people who are short sighted because they never have to, they haven't used their long distance vision very much. Which will explain the classic association between like nerds and glasses. People read all the time, like they aren't doing that, they're not like going outside looking at trees, they're like reading constantly, that's a similar thing. So it's a similar process, just now people are far more engrossed to their phones than with their... with books and stuff. And also, are stimulating. The same thing about doom scrolling. The brain does not like to things unfinished. It likes novelty and it really likes to know what the bad thing is that's happening. Because obviously we have this threat detection instinct. like, okay, something bad's coming. Must know what it is so I can deal with it. Or at least be as best we can as possible. So there's like a triple whammy of things that make us doom scroll. I want to see how this ends. It's not going to end. It's a social media feed. It just keeps coming. But your brain sort of doesn't realise that. I need to know what the bad thing is. Okay, well, this is bad. Keep looking, keep looking. I need to learn as much as possible. And so it's...
Ez Bridgman: It's like is it bad? Confirmed it's very bad. Keep keep scrolling.
Dean Burnett: Yeah, and other people say, you know, this part is definitely as bad. Like there's some research which shows that people who sort of experience a disaster via social media or the media generally can end up experiencing more long-term trauma than people actually involved in it. I think they did studies with like the Boston Marathon bombing, obviously really bad or like something like an earthquake or something. But yeah, obviously it's much worse for the people involved in it. Because obviously they are in mortal danger. That's no one's disputed in that. But from their perspective, the event has a clear beginning, middle and end. I was caught up in the bomb blast. Now I'm not. So that is an enclosed experience in my life. Whereas if you are watching it from remotely by social media, there's no real change between the beginning and end of the event. You're still getting the same feed. Like you've got all the sort of negative emotions, all the fear, all the concern, all the anxiety, but there's no obvious cutoff point. because you're just constantly scrolling through it. So your brain doesn't learn that's the thing that's finished now. And therefore you keep re-experiencing the trauma and things like that. So doom scrolling can have some rather negative consequences. And on flip side, I said just now, like I think it's good that many people have a creative outlet. know, be able to share their artwork, share their designs, share their clothes. have no issue with people doing that. They're gonna look at my outfit. I people have a right to express themselves and that can be a big part of... part of forming your identity. But on the flip side of that, do think there's, I think everyone should have a community. I don't think everyone would benefit from having an audience, because an audience is a different thing. And your social media sort of, you see that you've got like 500 followers. That suggests that there's 500 people just constantly looking at you, wanting to know what you're doing. In reality, they're not. They follow 500 other people too. They have like followers of their own. Everyone's got their own thing going on. But from your perspective, it is me and 500 people looking at me. That's what makes you feel like you've got to perform. You've got to give them what they want or you've got to least earn their attention. know that likes and retweets or reposts, these are all quantifiable things. It's quantifiable approval, which our brains really like. We love people approving of us, but it's often hard to sort of measure that. If you do a painting and you show it in a school gallery, people nod their head, okay, nice. But you don't know what everyone's thinking. But if you put it on Instagram. you get 4,000 likes, it's like, that's 4,000 good. so we understand that better and that is very appealing. But then of course, that sends people to less ideal outcomes. So you've seen plenty of stories of influencers or YouTubers or Twitch streamers who do more more extreme things to get the attention they're used to. And it's not good for them. It's not good for your mentality for if you're not the sort of person who... is set up there. Some people are like very extroverted. Some people have a confident voice. Some people know who they are already and are happy to share things. Like I'm sort of, I dip and out to social media. I have a platform. I have a profile, but I'm not on it all the time. But I'm a 44 year old bald white guy. So I don't really have sort of the social pressure to be accepted. there's always that guy. I I looked like a scientist. I've always looked like this since I was 12. So. I mean, I didn't even need a PhD. People just assumed I had one. I just, yeah, exactly. Like I could have just bought a white coat and wandered around. that guy must be a scientist.
Ez Bridgman: I love they like, well, does he obviously has a PhD? Yeah.
Dean Burnett: Look at him. I, again, like, well, thankfully I did actually do the actual work beforehand, but it turns out I didn't have bothered. you know, like no one's expecting me to look my best or look amazing or be, you know, like conform to very social ideals. Whereas that online, that is reinforced a lot. And if you have an audience that is doing that, then. you can become very sort of mentally troubled by that. And there's lots of, some studies show a difference between active and passive use of technology and social media. If you're active, putting yourself out there, you are like part of the conversation. Whereas if you're like passive, you just look at other people's stuff, you're just seeing like, especially like on Instagram, things like that, or TikTok, like if you're young girls, especially, you're seeing like constant. another beautiful person, another beautiful person, another beautiful person, look at my friend having a great time, look at my friend having a great time. You're seeing a heavily filtered edited reality and that's not how people's lives are. You're just seeing the very, very best that they're willing to put online. From your perspective, it looks like everyone else is glorious and I'm just this like sand sack sat at home. You can see your own flaws when nobody else is. And that sort gives you this sort of incorrect but hard to shake perception that you are sort of failure or like you're. you're not good or you're not worth anything. And that's where a lot of the mental issues start to arise. And again, like obviously on the other side, like the manosphere, things like that, young men are looking, feeling like dejected and don't know where they belong. And that stuff provides answers. I think it's correct that, know, like idea of what is a man, like big birdie guy who fights and slaps things and all these other shows anger is completely incorrect. But that's sort of... old-fashioned stereotype hasn't been replaced by anything. It's just like, yeah, you can do whatever you want if you want to be a man. That's technically correct, but when you're a young insecure guy, you're trying to find an answer to like, how do I be a man? People provide those answers, it will be appealing. And even if they're wrong, especially if they're simple, which they often are. So yeah, there's lots of aspects. I think technology is often the conduit too. It's not necessarily the cause. It just allows us access to these things. Like sometimes people say screens are bad for you, but... What are you doing in those screens is actually a much more important question. Like, you if you're sort of gambling on those gambling apps all the time, you're doing a screen. Is that the screen's fault or is that like the gambling itself? Is that that fault? So like if you were hooked on gambling in a casino, would you say, that person's got a building problem because the casino's a building? Like, well, no, that's just, yeah, bad stuff happens in buildings. Good stuff happens in buildings. But you don't say, well, you must. misregulate buildings. Yeah, we should, but obviously not for the reason you're thinking of. I'm pretty sure they are regulated too. You can't just like throw it up whenever you like. yeah, like there's loads of different nuances because technology and screens just means so much. They provide so many different options and a lot of those options will be bad, but not all of them. And that's where I think the confusion lies. Screen time and screens are like a handy shorthand, but it's not exactly as specific as it... should be when it comes to trying to find solutions.
Ez Bridgman: Yeah, interesting metaphor of how you you know Bad things happen in buildings and is it the building's fault? And there's you know, and there's a there's an interplay there, there's building codes and everything. I
Dean Burnett: Hmm.
Ez Bridgman: was just feeling a lot of empathy for our poor brains that are going on these
Dean Burnett: Mmm.
Ez Bridgman: platforms and are like, you know, someone who wants to feel beautiful, someone who wants to have clear guidance, someone who wants to get approval or connect with people. And it just makes me think about how the the brain is wanting these these fundamental needs and trying to find them. I had a a friend text me this morning saying that they had a there was a plan to go on. A run. That was the day. The day was a busy day, planning to go on run. Opened up Instagram, and you know, 45 minutes later, woke up, kind of like, where am
Dean Burnett: Mmm.
Ez Bridgman: I? What what no, I've just been scrolling, I can't go for a run anymore. My day needs to be shifted. Would you be able to just do just a little bit of a walkthrough? Like, what's happening cognitively?
Dean Burnett: Mmm.
Ez Bridgman: What's happening in the brain when we open up an app and suddenly it's like a time hole, we come out and we're like, what just happened here?
Dean Burnett: Well, again, think in this situation, you have to factor in the fact that someone's going for a run as well. I went for a run this morning and I didn't enjoy it. I never do. I keep going because, I did it. But I always feel like afterwards,
Ez Bridgman: But you did it, yeah.
Dean Burnett: I'm glad I did that, but I didn't enjoy it when it was happening. So I think, like I said, maximum effort, maximum reward, minimum effort. The brain's always thinking that. So like going for a run is a lot of effort and it's not a sort of clear cut reward. you're just getting fitter and healthier. And you do feel better afterwards. I was exaggerating, but it's not the sort of obvious, tangible reward. Whereas social media, for instance, Instagram is very immediate, very there and very, very low effort. So that law, it'll always like tip the balance in that regard. But I think this, lot of studies, well, before I go into those, like I just mentioned, the whole doom scrolling thing, not the negative stuff, but people don't like to leave things unfinished. Your brain starts to go, I think at the end of this, because it's not done. Brain doesn't like leaving tasks undone because that causes uncertainty, that causes frustration. social media feeds do not have an ending. They are constantly being replenished. I there were jokes during the pandemic and people would say, completed Netflix, so I completed YouTube, which was, you I did enjoy those jokes, but I think that's something that would take something like 36,000 years now on YouTube or something, assuming no one uploads anything else in terms of. We think of how many multiple hours Twitch streams that are on there. just that alone is going to be a big time sink. But, you know, so there's no end to this stuff. But subconscious brain doesn't really realize that. It's like, I'm one more, one more, one more. There's no real sort of end point, clear end point, which your brain can sort of lock onto. Like with a book, end of chapter, end of page, end of book. It's self-contained with social media feeds on. So we can absorb it in that way. And it's also like a constant little, bit more, bit more, bit more, bit more, bit more, more. there's no sort of, no, build up, build up, build up, and boom, reward. That would be more, again, more clear cut. It's all fuzzy in terms of where it begins and ends. But there's also some studies which suggest that when we're on social media, we enter a state of cognitive flow, or we can do. That's the state, no, we've got to go in the zone. When you're sort of locked in, you just suddenly, you fly in, go, yes. What that is, is my understanding, that normally when we're doing something, there are multiple parts of our brain. Our brain's doing loads of stuff at once, which are doing other things. So you're trying to write an essay. You're thinking, brain's going, okay, this next, what's next, but also your senses are doing other stuff. A year is going, what's that noise, what's that noise, what's that noise? your memories are going, hey, remember the time when you fell over on the street and never saw your pants? Thanks for that. That's really helpful. Yeah, so like it's always like little bits were in a way which do another stuff and loads of the brain is working against other things. Like it's always the balance like who wins this time, like impulse and emotion and instinct and thought, you know, and yes and no. Like there's always, that's always like, that's just how it's set up. So usually we're doing something that loads of different parts of the brain were in a way trying to other things. But if we're particularly in growth to something, usually means most of, if not all of our brain is locked onto that thing. It's like all your brain's going, we all like this, let's get stuck in. And social media is really good at that. It's low effort, it's stimulating, it's audio visual, it's occupying your mind, your senses, part of your brain, one connection. So it's ticking a load of boxes and then you just sort of get sucked into it. And there's something that can happen with reading a really good book, you get engrossed in that lookup and go, what? Where'd all the time go? So it's not like a brand new phenomenon, but I think social media has the scope to trigger it more easily. And then once you're locked in then, like, so your brain's going, this is great, I can... Like, this provided me loads of different stuff and I can be there through anything. That's great. You know, I don't have to expend any energy or put any effort in or calculate anything. This is exactly what I want to be doing. And they say like 45 minutes later, okay, got to revise my schedule now. So yeah, it's much easier to sort of just get so engrossed in it because it's ticking so many neurological boxes and therefore keeps you occupied.
Ez Bridgman: Yeah, and I'm I'm also hearing that you're you're you have a certain relaxed way of speaking about it in the sense you're not judging it. You're not like, no, it's forty-five minutes of life that have been squandered. It's like, no, there's lots of boxes being ticked. There's minimum effort, maximum reward. Okay, gotta reschedule things. And there's an interesting way that I'm just hearing you be a little bit less alarmist.
Dean Burnett: Yeah, I mean, I think that's totally valid because I do experience a lot with, you know, in the UK we're having this sort of social media ban like Australia is and it's very popular with concerned parents. know, I'd say concerned parents because lots of them are. Some are, think, a bit more dubious motivations, but let's not get into that. you know, there's lots of campaigns for this sort of thing and they, because they're trying to sort of cut through and get the emotional message across, it's just assumed that any time spent on a phone with a child is bad. And I was on a debate panel and said, know, the average, someone on the other side of the discussion said, no, the average child spends like three hours a day on the screen. That's three hours of childhood lost. But it's not. They are doing so much. Because of the way the world is now, a lot of childhood happens online, in the digital realm. My son's on his phone all the time. Yeah, he's watching YouTube videos of guys screaming about something I don't understand, which is entirely... I'm sure I did plenty of things when I was his age, my parents were utterly baffled by it and so did my mother with her grandparents, said it specifically so it's a common thing but a lot of the time he is talking to his friends, arranging where they're going to meet, where to sort of go out or where's football happening today. He stays around at school because they've organised, okay after school we're going for a kick around, he's very athletic, he's very sporty, he's very studious. Now he's very fit and healthy because He saw all these workout programs online and he's followed those and he's been inspired by the football as he's seen. So like this is all stuff which happens now. Like childhood happens online more than it ever, well obviously more than it ever has. There was no online when I was a kid. So that's obviously just logic. like you think it's in the lockdowns, Mike's son and so many other kids kept their social circles alive via things like Fortnite or like Snapchat. And these were like vitally important for their wellbeing. Like not. They didn't replace the whole thing because those kids have still struggled from the lack of interaction. But there was some and that's like really important. the idea that any time spent on a phone near young is bad isn't correct. And it's also the data shows it's going, it's not going to get the wrong way around because they say children shouldn't be on their phones, it should be outside. Now the data actually shows that children, least in this country, have been spending less and less time outside, going further and further away from home during their free time. since like the 1970s, way before smartphones and internet. And it seems because, well, partly because cars became more common, therefore roads are dangerous, therefore you couldn't cross them, and more buildings, more like private estates and stuff, that's become a thing. But also parents became more and more hyper safety conscious. Like in the 1970s, there was very little regard for, and we used to have warnings on TV, like don't go into an abandoned fridge. That was one of the main messages my childhood, stay away from abandoned fridges. Like I've never seen an abandoned fridge. Where are they all? Where are they all? Yeah. Why is that such a big deal?
Ez Bridgman: Neither have I.
Dean Burnett: I don't understand. yeah, that and quicksand grew up like two things you must be constantly vigilant of. Never encountered either. So, but also like our media kept reasoning, this child abductors run every corner. And so parents were the ones who kept kids indoors more and more and more. And that started to change in the last decade, largely because they have phones now. if can't get your phone. Parents are more relaxed when they go out because they can call them or find them or track them. that's, you know, big, reduces their anxiety, their, and lets them, so because of kids have phones, they are going outside more. But they're all campaigning, saying kids should be outside more, take their phones away. Well, that's going to just completely defeat the object. You're going to the problem worse. And they called mobile phones. for a reason, you can carry them around, you can go places with them, that's what they're for. And that's something that's often overlooked in these spaces. So I tried to stay as neutral as possible because there is no bad or good in terms of the actual, put all data together. There's been quite a few studies which show that the impact of constant phone use or social media use on mental health in young people is negligible, even if there is an effect. But that doesn't mean. they can't have or don't have an effect, just if you put all the data together, the pros and cons tend to cancel each other out. So there's no overall picture, just like, well, they exist. And that's sort of, you know, that's something that's often lost and overlooked or ignored in the wider discourse around them.
Ez Bridgman: Yeah, and it makes sense to be looking at data because there's a lot of people in this space that are sharing different opinions. So it's good to look at like what's actually happening. And I'm hearing as well the sort of the Puritan idea, like this idea of the pure childhood, where you have ch
Dean Burnett: Mmm.
Ez Bridgman: children like running outside in the field and connecting with each other. And there's something in what you're saying around acknowledging what is the world that we're in today, and not bringing a lens of shame towards technology and really looking more at what are positive or healthy ways of. using it. So a question I have for you is let's say you have someone who is becoming a parent now and they're kind of they're mapping out, okay, what's my relationship, what do I want my relationship to my children's relationship to technology be or in screens? What would you recommend based on the data that you've that you've seen and sort of current, you've it sounds like you've heard both sides of the discourse.
Dean Burnett: I do think, you know, obvious sort of things to check is that, you know, make sure your kids' devices are child-friendly. You don't give a three-year-old access to adult content because that's just a bad idea. It does actually cause mental disruption in the sense that when you're exposed to things you're not mentally or physically developed for. sexual content is the main go-to for that, and it's true. young boys and girls are seeing far more explicit stuff. than they ever could before because they have access to it now. But when you're too young, you're supposed to build up to that. That's like the final boss in a video game. I'm not into that, I'm just saying that that's a metaphor for what I'm talking about. So you're not ready yet. If you start a video game and have to the final boss right away, you're gonna get hurt. Similarly, if you're not fully sexually developed, you start seeing the most extreme stuff, you think that's what sex is, people are gonna get hurt. euphemistically and literally, that's the thing that's gonna happen because that isn't, you're not supposed to skip to that endpoint. The reason we have all this developmental chaos during our teens, the intense crushes, the sort of powerful emotions, that's our brain learning how to deal with this stuff. So if you just skip all that and go straight to the endpoint, you don't get the important development stages which help you handle that stuff. yeah, keeping... the right sort of content is important. But I do think the relationship your children have with technology is ideally will be downstream of the relationship they have with you as a parent. I practice what I preach, my own son have this, my daughter's a bit too young, but we're getting there. So most of the studies I've seen, what they've seen, suggest that the... Obviously, you raise a kid as you do. So, let them have some screens, but not too much. Depends what your thing is, to check what they're doing. that's always going be a judgement call. You're always going to be able to have to say, okay, what's too much? What's enough? And other parents are going to have their own input on that. And always be wary of that too, because parenting gets weirdly competitive, especially with parents of new kids. I think it's one of those things where... Everyone who is a parent is technically an expert of raising their kid. But then people want to share their insight and people have different kids and therefore that doesn't necessarily work. So when you've got everyone's an expert in different things then opinions start to get quite feisty. If you've ever been to a parent in chat group or forum it gets quite brutal quite quickly. Control crying or powdered milk and stuff like They have real strong opinions on that. something to be aware of as well. I think the key point is when your kid hits the teen years, starts going through puberty, their brain has changed as much as their body. But they have got a much more flexible, adaptable brain than a full grown adult who is a bit more set in their ways, like we've gone through all that process ourself. So your child will want things like, when they're becoming teenagers, they want more individuality. They're trying to form their identity. They need more independence, they more autonomy. And that requires renegotiating. the relationship you've forged over like 10 years of 10, 11 years of their life. So first years of childhood, the first 10 years, a very clear relationship. You parent, provider, but you're in charge. Child is like vulnerable, you know, gets things done for them. And, but they understand who the authority is. They do what their parents say. And that's, I that's the sort of textbook ideal for lots of, obviously lots of variation in that. When they hit their teens, obviously they want a different relationship. but parents are sort of slow to realize that. you the whole thing of, you're old enough now, you should be picking up after yourself, you treat this place like a hotel. Okay, yeah, it's annoying when you've got like a 13 year old who doesn't pick up anything. But from their perspective, that's been their entire life. But no, I'm the kid, you pick up stuff and you buy me things and I just do what I'm told. Now they're getting yelled at for that and they don't make a face of what's going on. So. The most successful parenting relationships, 10 P1s, which are like a constant renegotiation, like parents, okay, so what do you really want? What do you need right now? And what can I give you? Which is reasonable, you know, like, yeah, you might want to stay up till 2 a.m. partying with your friends, but you're 13 and it's Tuesday night and you have school tomorrow, so no, you can't, but on Friday you can go out, know, to drop you off, yeah, you it's, you sort of like, you know. push and pull, give and take, let them know where boundaries are, but also let them know what they're allowed to do and keep it sort of, keep it updated. And if you do that, then they sort of have less reason or no reason to not trust you when it comes to stuff like phone use or technology use. take like, know, they say like, well, I'm gonna use my phone, I'm gonna grab that phone, know, four hours, that's too long, have a break. Like if you've got that sort of mutual respect relationship, they fall back to go, yeah, like fair enough. Whereas if you're like constantly antagonizing them. then they will cling to whatever control autonomy they have, which is usually via devices. my parents are always on my back, so this is where I escape. This is where I go to get away from that, to be myself. And lot of parents' demands on teens are very inconsistent and illogical. Go outside, you're always indoors. You told me I can't go outside. Well, you can. Okay, I'll stay indoors. You're still on your phone. What are you going to do? It's like... A lot of they sort of, assume, like, the teen must assume they want, they just want a big pot plant. Because what I want to do is sit there, exist, and do nothing else. Like, well, I can't do that. I'm not, that's not how humans work. But a lot of parents seem to express that desire. And it's, you can see why it gets confusing. So I think, yeah, the relationship you have with your child and their technology use, it's always going to be unique, bespoke to each individual parent and teen, and what their interests are, what they want to do with it and stuff. But. Yeah, it should be a reflection of the wide relationship you have overall. The parenting relationship, parent-child relationship. And you ensure that's as smooth as possible, as mutually thoughtful as possible. Then the technology stuff should be lot easier to navigate because they know you're coming from a good place. They know they can trust you and rely on you to see them right. Or at least see them as best as you intend. And you're not just sort of being some sort of paranoid killjoy from their perspective because they're... Like lot parents are like, that's a thing. I don't like new thing. Get rid of new thing. And it's also important for parents to remember that, like you reflected just now, this idea of the puting of the ideal childhood. We all seem to want to recreate our childhoods for our kids. And we see that, they're not having our childhood. Therefore it's worse. Therefore something's gone wrong. I must fix that. And that comes from a good place. But it's not anywhere where our brains are letting us down or betraying us or misleading us, as we say, because there's something called the fading affect bias, which is where Bad memories or negative memories fade faster than good ones. So, if you have a negative experience, it's more powerful at first usually, but that negative memory, the actual emotional impact of it fades pretty quickly. Time heals all wounds, as they say. Whereas that doesn't happen with positive happy emotions. They tend to linger a long, long time. So the further back your memories go, the more positive they are. So if you're a full grown adult, your memories of your childhood tend to be heavily skewed towards positive. But they weren't. It wasn't that good. was at the time you probably had a visible time with it. I've had people like slightly older than me. They're saying, no, kids these days, they're just exposed to too much stress, much anxiety. We never had that. You grew up during the Cold War. Do you remember that? That whole, a decade of like, well, the world could end any second now. There's so much like culture and art about nuclear annihilation and the Holocaust and Armageddon. that was a bit stressful. That was a little bit sort of distracting. So yeah, like we tend to... Remember, we idealize our own childhoods more than we should, and we try to sort of impose those on our younger kids. And that's not helpful, because you're trying to recreate something that never actually happened and set them up or compare them to a standard which didn't occur or hasn't happened. So, and like the technology stuff gets caught up a lot in that, because that's the thing which most parents look and say, that's what's different about now. It's that, I mean, gadget, know, not everything's happened around us since, but that's a visible, tangible thing right in front of you. So that often gets the... gets the focus, the ire, should we say.
Ez Bridgman: The the invitation to really focus on the relationship is quite interesting. And then it's talking about how the relationship should be really the the primary thing, and then the relationship to technology can be downstream from that. And also just the invitation you're saying to really create a bespoke bespoke system that will really support the child. So you wrote this book, Why Your Parents Are Hung Up on Your Phone and What to Do About It. So
Dean Burnett: You
Ez Bridgman: I wanted to ask you, because you obviously have thought a lot about the perspective that a teenager might have versus a parent. What do you think that adults most understand mis most misunderstand about how young people experience? their phones and what do teenagers most misunderstand about why their parents are so concerned.
Dean Burnett: Yeah, I think from the parent side, it's like I said, it's not people. They seem like everything that happens on their phone is a bad thing or like a negative thing or something which is an indulgence. You know, like they're just doing something head in a stick, they're wasting time. You know, it's like nothing meaningful to come from the phone. You should be doing more healthy, pleasant things. Whereas a great deal of the stuff kids do on their phone is. Positive stuff, you know, it's them communicating with their friends sharing pictures sharing jokes chatting discussing planning things Arranged to meet up outdoors to do physical activities and that they that does happen a lot and it's always helped me also gain independence, know, so I think this appearance to see like the phone is like I Don't know it's sort of like just some sort of pure hedonism device. It's just nothing but It has no positives just negatives. It's just like It's like they're sort of just eating nothing but ice cream all day every day. Ice cream is nice, but it's not good for you, so you shouldn't do that. Whereas they're not. They're eating like fruit smoothies all day every day. A lot of sugar in there, but a lot of vitamins. I think parents, because obviously it's a new thing to our world. So parents have this overly negative view of phones and technology use, which they apply to their teens and their kids, which obviously can be unhelpful because that's not the reality. Whereas I do think younger people like... I mentioned digital natives, they have the opposite thing. have never experienced a world without the internet and therefore they think any device or technology is inherently, if not safe, just not just there. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't safe. Like I said, don't think so, trees are dangerous. Well, they can be, but they're just there. They're not exactly a constant threat. They're just part of life. And I'd say if I do think... they can be more blase about stuff. don't know because this has been in uncharted waters. They think, it must be all, it's fine. Cause like I've used phones all the time and never had a problem. So things on my phone are fine. And that's also not true because once you're a young person, you haven't experienced a lot of life and seeing what the pitfalls are and that's the point for your teen years really to learn, okay, do that. Don't do that. That was a bad idea. But once you're impulsive enough to try it, but young and sort of. physically healthy enough to get away with it. that's where, that's a big part of why teenagers are like they are. know, it's your brain and body going, okay, so what can we do? Okay, well, and I've learned that lesson and that's, know, those powerfully embarrassing team memories are unpleasant, but they are like important. They're like, yeah, that's your brain going, okay, I must never do that again. And just to make sure, I'm gonna remind you every 25 minutes, just randomly in middle of the street and. So like, that's a big part of your teenage years and stuff. So, but you don't know that. And teens are like, not as good at assessing risk. That's something that comes later on with development. So you're more impulsive. You're less aware of dangers and risks. And that means doing stuff online. There's a lot of that out there. So you think, it'll be fine. I'll check this site. this influencer seems like cool. I just listened to what they say. He likes cars. What's wrong with that? then. they don't realise what a grifter is or what a con artist is or what toxic presence is because they haven't experienced that yet. So their parents want to go, no, no, don't listen to that guy. He's clearly after something or he's clearly got some very, very dodgy ideas. yeah, like, so parents can be very, very overly prescriptive and overly paranoid about what's on the phone and young people can be very, very relaxed about it. And a mutual dialogue would help alleviate that all round. So, yeah. brain wise because the teens haven't got brains which experienced the, had the experiences necessary to navigate the riskier parts, the negatives. And parents have brains just too preoccupied with the negatives to accept that it's not necessarily that bad. There's a lot going on there. Some it's bad, but a lot of it's not. And insisting it's only bad is going to cause, it's going to be counterproductive because your teen obviously disagrees completely and therefore friction will occur.
Ez Bridgman: Yeah, that makes sense. So inviting to have more nuance in the conversation, especially with that generational gap. And I'm curious if for someone who is wanting to really who's noticed that their own relationship to screens has gone leaned more into a zone of like harmful in the sense that maybe they're just they're either that doom scrolling or maybe they're just really going down these rabbit holes of content, or maybe they're feeling addicted, or
Dean Burnett: Hmm.
Ez Bridgman: maybe they're just what do you sort of recommend to people who are wanting, just from a again, from a neuroscience perspective, like how do you Get off the roller coaster or how can you create boundaries for someone who is really trying to and they're not able to?
Dean Burnett: I do think you can sort of use the benefits of the phone or the technology against it sometimes. Because like I said, it's one of big appeals of doing stuff on your phone, just online, is that it's so easy. It's such a very, very minimal effort thing. So you can just pick up your phone, wake up in morning, pick up your phone, straight back onto it. like you have not to do anything, I haven't got out of bed yet. So it's a very direct and instant reward. But if you can introduce steps to make it harder. Something simple as if you constantly do scrolling before bed, put your phone down, pick it back up again, pick it back up again. Something as simple as, okay, pick it up, put it across the room, get out to bed and do it, and lay back down again. That involves literally extra steps. I could just, I'm in bed now. So basically you can use your brain's laziness in your favour, not as a risk, things like that. And, but yeah, we need to get sucked into stuff. It is really quite hard to see a way out of it sometimes. Or like, because there's so much online, especially with AI's coming along, like, what is this? Is this true? Is this real? I don't know anymore. Like, nothing makes sense. It's, it's pretty hard to navigate that. Cause obviously the usual, know, resources, like the three TV channels and three or four newspapers, those are all over the place now. Like they're online as well. They are being like propaganda machines sometimes. It's sort of just. catering to opinion outrage or anything factual. So it's hard to sort of judge what you should be paying attention to. I would say like as a general rule of thumb, because of the way the brain works, when you're sort of hit with this constant onslaught of information, and obviously you can't process that, your brain does not have the capacity to go through, okay, I'll read all that and then decide what I like. So you've got this bombardment of information, so your brain will default to using emotion. or emotional powered processes to figure out what to look at or what to pay attention to. Because like, like that, don't like that, makes me angry, makes me sad, makes me happy, makes me pleased, that sort of thing. So you start sort of via that system and therefore you end up finding things which just tell you what you already think. And therefore you end up down these rabbit holes into conspiracy theories, into sort of hardcore ideologies which are not necessarily rational, but they do sort of reaffirm your baser instincts. And it's just simply being aware that that's a thing can be really helpful. So my general advice I tend to give people is if you are sort of worried about going online and what you're gonna see, what you're not gonna see, if you're presented with some information and ask yourself, is this something I want to be true? Is this something I want to know? Does it make me feel happy that this is someone telling me this? If the answer is yes, then it's worth Do I double check this, triple check this? Like, okay, so, okay, I've often thought ex people are untrustworthy. Here is a person with a suit on telling me, did you know ex people are untrustworthy? Like, I knew it, see? Like, okay, why are they telling you that? Why are they just popped up in your feed going, do you know the people you don't like are very, you're a very good reason not to like them? Like, why, what's the point of doing that if they didn't have some sort of ulterior motive? So. It really helps to go, okay, so who is this guy? What's his story? What do they want? What do they want from telling you this? What will they get from it? It's usually they want money, sometimes votes, sometimes it's attention or clicking their hands and stuff. But yeah, so like, it's gonna be hard, but if you just swim in through the sea of online stuff and you find something, I knew this was true. If that's what your first instinct, that's when you should like, okay, question that. Okay, so I knew it true. Did you or did you want it to be true? And if you want it to be true, why is someone telling you that? Because it means like they can manipulate you by telling you what you want to be true. And that's a big part of where a of people end up in the mind or stuff like this. yeah, if you're just being told things all the time, which already confirm what you already think, that's when you should sort of be a more suspicious. Now diversifying your input is really helpful, really handy. You haven't got to sort of, it doesn't mean you should just like embrace hardcore fascists and stuff, but I'm just saying that, if you just surround yourself with like yes men, like that's, there's always, you see this bad things, but now it allows us to surround ourselves with digital yes men all day, every day. And that's a big part of what AI chatbots are so appealing, because they just programmed to tell you what you want to hear and tell you how great you are or tell you that you're right about stuff or be very polite and phony. And people like that. People do really like that. And there are some studies that show that with most devices, people give sort of identities to... objects all the time, like people, guys love their car or maybe like they have their favorite sort of, you know, item of clothing or like a particular piece of a, what's the word? Accessory, there we go. Yeah, like people have their favorite accessory or their favorite car or like they have the same with the house. But when it comes to technology, digital devices, computer devices, people give those more agency. We sort of think, well, this is talking back to me. This is interacting with me. It's not just like I'm, it's not inert. It's actually got a presence. It's actually doing stuff. So we have this sort of instinctive thinking that the technology has, it's contributing to things. And therefore when it starts talking back to us, like with an AI chat bot, chat bot, our brain's like already halfway there. It's, yeah, this thing which I always assume to talk to me is talking to me. There we go. I was right. It is a person. It is a, it's got an identity and that is. why people sort of get so sucked into that as well. So yeah, there's loads of things that the brain does which makes us vulnerable to the stuff modern technology does. But just knowing about that, knowing what's happening can be a useful tool in avoiding it. You don't have to fight against it. It's not necessarily a bad thing half the time, it's keeping scented, keeping a grip on reality at least. And that's important to do, I would think.
Ez Bridgman: That makes sense and I think just like almost like it's like a mental self defense, like knowing am I as presc ascribing like a identity to this chat bot? Am I looking at sources from one single s some one single source versus having like a diversity? A final question here is just some in terms of scenario plot planting or just thinking about the future, what do you see as being like a worst case and best case scenario? We think about screens and technology and AI in terms of use. What do you see? What's like the dystopia and like the you know best case scenario that you sort of see?
Dean Burnett: Yeah, I mean worst case scenario probably would be that everyone retreats into their own little digital bubble where they're just being fed information on stuff that they like. So yeah, sort of my true advice. But even that was interconnected. Everyone was interacting. Whereas this one,
Ez Bridgman: Like matrix vibes. Yeah.
Dean Burnett: you can sort of see where you've got an AI chatbot, you've got social media feed and stuff. It's just attuned to stuff you like. like, people are already throwing more on the loss of the monoculture. like appointment television or everyone knowing what's in the charts. Because everyone can be so siloed now because of the digital surroundings, then that is, you do lose culture then, you do lose connection. And I do sort of, I can envisage, I don't think it'll happen, I can envisage a world where people become too engrossed in their devices, their technology, at the expense of real world interactions because... despite everything, those are more significant for our brains, because that's what we evolved to look for, to seek out. I think I've liked the four digital relationships like vitamin tablets. They can be helpful, they can be meaningful, and they can be good for you, but they're not enough most of the time. You can be online friends with someone for 10 years and have a great relationship, but then you meet them in person at... the pub or whatever and then suddenly it now it's official. That's how people see it, that's official, that's how we've, now we're real friends because ultimately we put a lot of value distinctively on face-to-face in-person connections. So I can sort of see the bad scenario where people become cut off by their technology, even more isolated, even more remote, and it's like digital cocoon where people don't get anything done. really because we're just too engrossed in that. But I don't think that'll happen. I don't think the human urge to connect is too strong for that, but could be wrong. But think the utopian, mean not utopian, but positive, I do think we're already seeing a shift from that. So younger generations are sometimes just staying away from it. I don't want to be on social media. That's what my parents do. The younger generation usually does, like, what are the old folks doing? Mustn't do that. And if you've brought up in the world where like TikTok is just the norm and it's not scary, but it's not also not, it's not exciting. It's not appealing. It's like, guess that's the thing people do. Some people don't drive. Some people don't have any interest in that. So for a while I was seeing this like, well, everyone's going to do that. That's the main thing. And the idea of people not watching TV was like. mind boggling in the 80s. So what else are you gonna do? just, you know, it's how people consume entertainment. And now it's, you know, it's fractured, it's fragmented. So, and I do think, you know, with the AI stuff, think, you know, authenticity is gonna have value. And because, you know, I think AI stuff is kind of logically self-limited because even if scrapes stuff that's online, a lot of stuff online now is AI stuff. So you're gonna have this sort of feedback loop. This is all generational art, generation art stuff, those are the applications, but in terms of the stuff people complain about. So I do think human authenticity is gonna have a of more of a cache in future, which it's obviously gonna mean it's more valuable and prioritized and sought after. So yeah, so do think we are still part of this. I do think this is a cycle. I think it's gonna end up somewhere different relatively soon in the societal terms. I where that is, but I know, I don't think it's gonna just stagnate like we people seem to think it is. say, humans don't do that. We are always sort of like, I'm bored, what's next? That's very much our default state. So yeah, I think we're gonna end up somewhere interesting, but I'm not sure where that is.
Ez Bridgman: Well, I would say that cautionally, you know, cautiously optimistic. I wanted to thank you, Dr. Dean
Dean Burnett: I'll go with it.
Ez Bridgman: Burnett, for your joining today, for sharing your thoughts. One of the an experiences just with technology, even from your own family, one of the the ideas that was really impactful for me to hear was just how the brain wants an ending. And it's not provided
Dean Burnett: Mmm.
Ez Bridgman: that. And it makes me just think about what are some of the needs that we have that are or not met. So thank you for joining. I really appreciate
Dean Burnett: What the?
Ez Bridgman: hearing hearing you. And I invite everyone who is listening to this to think about some of your relationship with technology based on this conversation and just having that sort of critical mental self-defense. How do I want to be using this and what are some things I want to be careful of as well? Any last words to close our time together?
Dean Burnett: No, it's fine. The brain needs an ending, and I think we should provide one. Otherwise, we'd be very hypocritical.
Ez Bridgman: Thank you so much.
Dean Burnett: Have fun.
Ez Bridgman: Take care.