WEBVTT
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I was excited.
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I was ready to take on the world and serve the Lord.
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And I was also, there's there's some humbling that needed to take place.
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And I think one thing I learned that I often share with people was that first job was very isolated.
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I worked for an oil company in a trailer and it was a dark place.
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And I was convinced in the beginning that that was a good thing.
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I would have an opportunity to really shine light to my coworkers and share the truth with them, many of whom were not Christians.
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Over time, I was not engaged in Christian community.
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I didn't have opportunity to go to church very often.
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I was pretty disconnected from the church body.
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And also I was so busy with work.
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When I'd get home or get to the trailer and maybe to read God's word to spend time, I would fall asleep.
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So I just know that became a dry period when eventually I felt like I needed to quit because spiritually I was dying.
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This was the hard truth discovered by our friend Paul shortly after he graduated from college.
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He had come to faith during this time and was greatly influenced by the Navigators while in college.
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Hi, I'm David Dennis with the Kansas Communities Ministry with the Navigators.
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Thank you so much for listening to Making Disciples Naturally, where we believe that making disciples should be a natural part of every believer's walk.
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Today we are privileged to hear from Paul, who is a worker in North Africa.
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Now, for security reasons, we are using pseudonyms for his and his wife's names.
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He and his family moved there several years ago, and both he and his wife Susan teach at a school.
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This is a challenging environment.
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Paul was influenced greatly by the navigators while he was in college.
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He has a real heart for investing in the lives of individuals.
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But what does that look like in his setting?
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One of the criteria he had based on his experience working for the oil company right after college was the crucial need for fellowship and connection with the body of Christ wherever he went.
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I think we can learn a lot from Paul and Susan's perspective and experiences.
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Let's listen as he explains his story.
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So I'm really excited to have my friend Paul with me today.
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Paul and his wife Susan are workers in North Africa, so we'd like to kind of learn more about what that looks like in terms of our call to make disciples and what his life looks like.
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So welcome today, Paul.
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Thank you, David.
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It's good to be here, and I've been looking forward to our conversation.
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Oh, that's great.
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So let's, as we start, let's just uh maybe hear a little bit about your background, maybe family of origin, education.
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Just help us to get to know you a little bit better.
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I think a few brief things.
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Uh I, although not born in Kansas, most of my childhood was spent in Kansas in a Christian home with uh great parents.
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I have three brothers, one of whom is a twin, and that's played a large part throughout the years of that friendship and a lot of the things we share in common.
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We grew up going to a church, and that wasn't really a gospel preaching church.
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And so I grew up most of my childhood.
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I was really thinking I was a good person, and I believed that God existed, and I was supposed to be a good person.
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And so most of my my uh childhood was centered around school and sports.
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And so if you summarize those two things, that's most of what life was up until college.
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I mean, I I went to K-State.
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K-State, I studied civil engineering, and that's also where I met my my wife, Susan.
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So Okay, very good.
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Awesome.
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So let's talk about your time and in college.
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Maybe if you want to tell a little bit about how you guys met, that would be fine.
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But uh, especially kind of tell us about your spiritual journey at that point in your life.
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Yeah, uh, like I said, one big change.
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Well, the two probably largest changes in my life came in college where I think I was genuinely converted.
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I genuinely came to a saving relationship with Jesus, and I also met my wife Susan.
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So two really very important things.
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Um, Jesus first, obviously.
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And uh yeah, Susan and I met we met at church, and so we were involved in a lot of the same.
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So I I met her later in my college career after I'd already become a believer, but we were in the same small group at church and went to the same church and also found each other in a lot of the same gatherings.
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We were in an inter international student ministry and a prayer group that prayed for the nations, and we started to see each other in all these places, and that helped us connect the dots that we might be pretty like-minded.
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So, and then regarding uh my my spiritual journey in college, like I mentioned, I I did grow up going to church.
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I was familiar with a lot of the stories.
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I had parents who who really modeled a lot of the Christian values and Christian walk, but the the church we went to did not preach the gospel and really didn't teach the word of God, it was more stories.
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And so I grew up really thinking that God loved me, that I was a good person, and I was supposed to be good.
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And it was really in college when I started to get in involved in a Bible study with the Navigators, and then the same guy who was leading the Bible study invited me to the church that he went to.
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That it was through the an actual authentic involvement with other Christians who I got to know and they got to know me.
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I got to see into their lives, and also engaging with the word of God.
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I started to not just read the Bible because I had to or it was the right thing to do, but actually start to think about what I was reading and wanted to know what it said.
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So seeing Christ in the church, but also just seeing Christ in his word.
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When I I remember distinctively, I was reading the book of Philippians actually, and it wasn't, I don't remember if it was a verse, but I became convinced and aware I I was a sinner.
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I was not a good person, and those sins separated me from God, and I I needed a savior, and Jesus, Jesus is that savior.
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That was a, I think that was one of the lacks, one of the things I was not aware of was this reality of sin that separated me from God.
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And so that that dot was connected there at college as well.
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And so that's a little bit of my spiritual journey.
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So tell me about your experience with the navigators.
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Kind of what did that look like?
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Were there weekly meetings?
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Did you have interaction with individuals?
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Kind of paint a picture for what that was like at college.
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Uh I I think this will come up later in our conversation.
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But one of the things that I think really impacted me most in the Navigators was taking part in a kind of more of an evangelistic Bible study as a participant.
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And then later just inductive Bible studies with other young men in navigators.
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And so that was largely, it was pretty much every week we'd have a Bible study.
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We went through Mark at one point, and then some other Bible studies were more topical.
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So that was very influential in maturing me and helping me to see Christ, but also just getting to know other guys.
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And I think those were those are powerful because we were, I'm sure it had something to do with our we're we're young men in similar situation, but we're all actually opening up and sharing about our lives with God's word open, asking questions together and digging deeper.
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And that was powerful in growing me up, but also showing this seed of how important it is to be able to read God's word on your own and to study it and have the right questions to ask.
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Um, we also went to the kind of the weekly meetings and navigators.
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This guy that I mentioned earlier uh was also kind of meeting with us, uh, my twin brother and I, sometimes together, sometimes apart, kind of just trying to teach us um, disciple us um not only how to lead Bible studies, but what does it mean to walk the Christian life?
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Yeah, we're did they teach you tools to use as far as reaching out?
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Uh, the evangelistic Bible study, for example.
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Uh was that something that was helpful to you?
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And um, maybe the bridge illustration, things like that.
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What tools do you remember that they kind of gave you to use in your life?
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They equipped me with a lot of tools.
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And a lot of those tools were very helpful.
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Um, they're not perfect, no tool is perfect.
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In fact, we should always remember that tools are just, you know, they don't work for everybody, um, but they're helpful for certain contexts.
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And I was really, it was very helpful.
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Um, and this might be in the same line, but scripture memory is a big emphasis of the navigators.
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And we always want to read verses in their context, but I've found a lot of those verses have stuck with me over the years, both in teaching God's word or personally in meditation and and ministering to me when they come to mind.
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And so scripture memory was a tool, not only for personal devotional life and growth, but for ministry.
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Um, another tool was the wheel, um, just a way to think about the Christian life and some of these core components that need to be there.
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And the word hand, I still remember that illustration.
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Right.
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You get all the fingers on the hand, yeah, on the word the strong grip you have.
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And uh a lot of those are very catchy, they stick with you.
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Yeah.
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Um yeah, those Bible evangelistic Bible studies, I think they call them IBDs, investigative Bible studies in the in the group we were in.
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And I don't remember, I just remember the idea that that is an evangelistic tool, is getting people to actually engage with God's word.
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Based on uh what you had learned in your training and time with the navigators, did that influence what you decided to do after college, or was there a gap?
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Did you do something else before you're what you're doing now?
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I think this answers your question.
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But one thing the navigators did well, um, particularly the the group we were in, was instill the mindset, which I do think it's it's rooted in God's word, that discipling isn't kind of an optional or super Christian thing to do.
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It's actually something that should be the normal part of the Christian life.
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I knew no matter what I would do after college, whether it was um working in the marketplace or using my skills in ministry or bivocational or vocational, that discipling was going to be part of it.
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So I think navigators helped instill that.
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That's just part of the normal Christian life, to be seeking to disciple others, but also being disciple.
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And uh I do think I had a desire to engage in, I was planning to do kind of tent making.
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So using my my background um in a cross-cultural setting, I would be able to make disciples in a in a place where there were more uh people who had less exposure to the gospel.
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So tell us what you did then after college.
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Tell me kind of what what was your sequence of events after that?
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After college, I I worked briefly for an oil company, and you know, I think this probably fits in with this podcast.
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I I was young, I was excited, I was ready to take on the world and just serve the Lord.
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And I was also there's there's some humbling that needed to take place.
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And I think one thing I learned that I often share with people was that first job was very isolated.
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Um, I worked for an oil company in a trailer, and it was a dark place.
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And I was convinced in the beginning that that was a good thing.
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I would have an opportunity to really shine light to my coworkers and share the truth with them, uh, many of whom were not Christians.
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Over time, I was not engaged in Christian community.
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I didn't have opportunity to go to church very often.
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I would occasionally be emailing and touching base with other Christians, but I was pretty disconnected from the church body.
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And also I was so busy with work.
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When I'd get home or get to the trailer and maybe start to read God's word to spend time, I would fall asleep.
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Or so I just know that became a dry period when eventually I felt like I needed to quit because spiritually I was I was dying spiritually, I was uh not sustained.
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And uh I actually met a coworker who tried to convince me he was a higher up in the job, and he said, I'm a believer too, and I want you to stick with this because you're gonna be a soldier for the Lord.
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And I had to tell him, you know, I've I've got so little light left, I don't think I have much to shine.
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I need to, I need to be refreshed, I need to be with the body of Christ.
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And I think it was also in that period um with that job that I I felt a clear desire, a stronger conviction that I really wanted to serve the overseas.
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And that that job was I was hoping I actually was going to be sent to Saudi Arabia with that job, but I think the job itself was not best fit for me, and I knew I wanted to have a family at some point.
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And it was just uh not the best fit for a family life.
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Well, I really appreciate that.
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The importance of body life, of staying connected to the body.
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I think I really appreciate that.
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So tell me about your current situation, your current working.
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Uh you're no longer in the United States.
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Uh where are you working right now?
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Currently, Susan, Susan and I work at a school in North Africa.
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And uh we're we're still fairly new in this context.
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We've been there a couple years, but we're we're learning the language that people speak there and teaching English and history and science between my wife and I.
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So okay, good.
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So, what does what is making disciples look like in your setting right now?
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I like to use Arc Dever's definition of making disciples.
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I just appreciate it.
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It's a maybe a broader definition.
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He, I think, uses this definition in his book, discipling, is deliberately doing spiritual good to someone so that he or she will be more like Christ.
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Or it's just helping someone follow Jesus.
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I can think of at least three areas.
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And I've learned this over the years.
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I think this comes from God's word and it comes from wisdom from other brothers and sisters.
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I guess I can share a story.
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And I remember meeting a man on the field who said, My children are my primary disciples.
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And that struck me as strange because I thought, why would this guy go overseas and then say that his children are his primary disciples?
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I thought he was here to be to be reaching the nations.
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And I've seen the wisdom in those words that primarily, you know, if we're not discipling in our own homes, I don't really know what kind of discipling we'll be doing outside of our home.
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And that's not easy.
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But we have Susan and I have four four children, four girls, and primarily discipling it starts with trying to lead them to teach them what it means to follow Jesus, to train them up in the way of God.
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And we have family devotions is an important part of that.
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But something that comes to mind from our first two years in this location is that you know they're in a tough school surrounded by largely Muslims.
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And it as it turns out, those who lie the most, who push the hardest, and who cheat to get their way, who push others around, they're the ones who get the rewards in the school.
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They get seen, they get answers by the teacher, they get attention.
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Um, and we've tried um to train our daughters not to live this way, but to follow the way of Jesus and to live out the commands he's given.
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That's not easy.
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And so I think discipling in that context means helping them think through.
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We know you're not see you're not getting the immediate reward, but we're called to live for the one who sees all things and knows all things, the one who who gives good rewards and who sees our hearts.
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And so teaching them is this which are we gonna live for?
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You know, it's not easy, and that's that's not easy for a young young kid.
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So I've been personally challenged as I try to lead my children through this kind of this discipleship question.
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So that's one context.
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Uh the other one would largely be our workplace.
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So we spend the large part of our our our time has been in a classroom with coworkers and students, um, almost all of whom are not Christian.
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Um, they'd be Muslim.
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So I'm thankful that a lot of my life gets to be lived before these students and coworkers as someone I believe by God's grace is filled with his spirit and still far to go.
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Sometimes I've had to apologize or ask, I just admit I did something wrong in the classroom, which itself I think it can be a testimony.
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But I I appreciate the hours that I've had with these students and my coworkers to demonstrate what I hope is a life that is seeking to follow Jesus, and that's very different.
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But it's also opened up a lot of conversations.
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We've been able to sow a lot of seeds in a lot of a lot of them actually come from co-workers or students asking me questions.
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They have a certain belief about what Christians believe and how they act.
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And I get to not only live a life that I hope counters some of those wrong beliefs, but also answer questions about what the Christian faith really teaches, what the Bible really is, who Jesus really is.
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And so, but those often come in the course of normal conversations.
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And uh just one example, I had a student who's really interested in how do we get the Bible in the Quran and asking questions.
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And so I got to just talk with him over the period of a few months, I think, helping him think through what I believe, where the Bible's come from, and help him ask questions of is the book that you have, is it where did it come from?
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Is it trust which which is true?
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And so that's just an example of what some opportunities we've had in the workplace.
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I guess maybe a third is our neighborhood, which I'll maybe talk about later.
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But we try to intentionally build relationships with all the people we live with in our neighborhood.
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And some of those, you know, haven't haven't really gone very far or actually feel like they're going backwards.
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But others, we've had a lot of opportunity to develop really meaningful relationships with people.
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We want to show them we care about them.
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We we want to be good neighbors to them, and we also care about their spiritual health.
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And so we have an opportunity to ask about questions about their belief and share our testimonies at one point and talk about spiritual truth.
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I really appreciate your comment about uh your children are your primary disciples, and I super appreciate the fact that you, as the father, are taking the lead, you know, in that area of spiritual training and discipleship for your kids.
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So thank you for doing that.
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Getting back to your time at the school, how do people know that you are a Christian believer?
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Is it because you're from America and all Americans are Christians, supposedly, or um how how do they learn that?
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Yeah, that is a good question.
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And this might overlap with other questions you have, but one of the first things people ask me often in this country is, are you Muslim?
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And I'm and I'm not.
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And I, in the very that in the bit most basic form, being able to say, no, I'm not Muslim.
00:21:23.550 --> 00:21:33.150
I I believe in Jesus, I follow Jesus, I'm a Christian, offers a counterpulture, uh a challenge to the idea that everyone there is Muslim.
00:21:33.389 --> 00:21:38.190
And I some of them I think assume that, yeah, if you're from the West, you're probably a Christian.
00:21:38.349 --> 00:21:43.789
But I've been able to actually um just be be clear about the fact that I am a Christian.
00:21:43.949 --> 00:21:46.030
What our school really values professionalism.
00:21:46.110 --> 00:21:51.630
And so we want to, we are we honestly, we do not advocate one belief system.
00:21:51.949 --> 00:21:58.510
Uh our school is is not so it just seeks to be open and tolerant to people from any faith.
00:21:58.590 --> 00:22:04.030
It doesn't advocate one specific faith, but each teacher is welcome to have a faith of their own.
00:22:04.110 --> 00:22:12.190
And so there are most of our coworkers are Muslim, and I'm a Christian, and I get opportunities to share that as kind of life comes about you.
00:22:12.349 --> 00:22:13.389
So yeah, yeah.
00:22:13.630 --> 00:22:18.429
So would you say that your co-workers are pretty open to discussing spiritual things?
00:22:18.590 --> 00:22:21.230
Uh the it sounds like they are asking you questions.
00:22:21.469 --> 00:22:25.630
Is that an area of the of interest of some of your coworkers at least?
00:22:25.949 --> 00:22:27.469
That's a good it's a good question.
00:22:27.550 --> 00:22:31.150
It's hard to see true spiritual interest sometimes.
00:22:31.309 --> 00:22:39.550
Sometimes the question can be polite, sometimes it can just be argumentative in an attack with zero desire to listen or hear.
00:22:39.949 --> 00:22:43.070
It does seem that there are some who who are interested.
00:22:43.230 --> 00:22:45.150
They don't know that many actual Christians.
00:22:45.309 --> 00:22:47.070
And so there are some who've asked questions.
00:22:47.230 --> 00:22:48.510
Just an encouraging story.
00:22:48.670 --> 00:22:56.989
You know, there was a a young woman at this school who was just really interested in Christianity and didn't know hardly any Christians.
00:22:57.150 --> 00:23:01.869
And once she found out that actually there's a church in the city we are in, there's only one, and it's small.
00:23:02.030 --> 00:23:03.710
She didn't even know that there was one.
00:23:03.869 --> 00:23:09.550
She heard about this through something my daughters wrote in a paper and decided she wanted to visit.
00:23:09.630 --> 00:23:16.349
And she's had a chance to engage with um another teacher who's a believer, and she has lots of questions and she's very interested.
00:23:16.510 --> 00:23:18.269
So there are some who are interested.
00:23:18.429 --> 00:23:25.710
There's others who it's it's uh, you know, as we get to know each other, our faith is my relationship to Jesus is central to my whole life.
00:23:25.869 --> 00:23:36.030
And so it's it's not hard and it's important when we talk about why people celebrate these holidays or do this activity or abstain and don't do this activity.
00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:45.389
Um, asking them questions about their traditions, their holidays, their family life, their culture often opens the door for them to respond with a question back.
00:23:45.869 --> 00:23:51.789
And there's been times that it seems people don't just ask it in a polite manner, but actually want to know more.
00:23:51.949 --> 00:23:54.829
So from co-workers, there is some genuine interest at times.
00:23:55.230 --> 00:24:07.230
Would you say you, and this is probably a personal choice question, but in general, do you set about to think of a way to bring up spiritual things, or do you find that it happens fairly naturally in conversation?
00:24:07.550 --> 00:24:17.309
Probably both would describe there's uh, for example, I was intentional during the month of Ramadan to think how can I engage with the people around me.
00:24:18.030 --> 00:24:22.269
And so I thought about different things I could do, but particularly what I could ask.
00:24:22.429 --> 00:24:26.429
And a very simple question was just so why are you fasting?
00:24:26.670 --> 00:24:32.829
And hearing, you know, each person, some of them gave similar answers, but each person kind of gave an answer of their own.
00:24:33.230 --> 00:24:47.469
But I was intentional to ask think of a question that I could ask that would help them engage with some things, you know, and I've learned this personally, there's some things I don't even think about in the in the culture I'm from until someone's asked me a question to think about it.
00:24:47.630 --> 00:24:47.869
Right.
00:24:48.030 --> 00:24:48.269
Exactly.
00:24:48.429 --> 00:24:50.750
And then when I'm asked that question, I start thinking about it.
00:24:50.909 --> 00:24:53.469
I don't even know why I do something or why I believe something.
00:24:53.630 --> 00:24:57.309
And so a lot of times those questions will open the door for further conversation.
00:24:57.550 --> 00:25:10.590
On the other hand, sometimes it's it's not intentional in uh in the moment, it's just a more of a lifestyle and an intention that I I just genuinely want all of our our friends, our family to know Jesus who is life.
00:25:10.670 --> 00:25:17.150
And that drives at times, as you might understand, at times in an unhealthy way, trying to push that in.
00:25:17.230 --> 00:25:25.710
But I I've think I've learned over the years that still learning, but maybe take that slower and just ask questions and walk into doors that might be opening.
00:25:26.829 --> 00:25:27.469
Absolutely.
00:25:27.789 --> 00:25:37.949
With your students, do you pretty much wait until they bring up questions or do you do you plant any any seeds at all as you're teaching, maybe English, for example?
00:25:38.349 --> 00:25:39.550
That's a good, you know.
00:25:39.630 --> 00:25:44.190
I I think that I would tend towards answering questions as they come.
00:25:44.429 --> 00:25:44.590
True.
00:25:44.750 --> 00:25:49.469
I really want to take faithfully this, you know, uh, I don't want the school.
00:25:49.949 --> 00:25:59.389
You know, we are not a Christian school, and so I don't want to make it seem as if their classes are coming from a Christian worldview necessarily.
00:25:59.630 --> 00:26:00.030
Right.
00:26:00.349 --> 00:26:12.349
But as you know, some simple examples are, you know, we were doing a read-aloud, and the topic was about uh we read The Boys in the Boat together, and and there was one character who is a Jew.
00:26:12.510 --> 00:26:20.349
And through that, I I can't remember if a student asked the question or if I just as we talked through it, people could clearly want to know more.
00:26:20.989 --> 00:26:27.070
We just talked about our identity, and it gave me the opportunity just to share, you know, some some worldviews.
00:26:27.230 --> 00:26:31.309
You're born with a certain belief, or you're born into an identity.
00:26:31.469 --> 00:26:36.510
But in in my case, I even though I grew up in a Christian home, I didn't actually become a Christian.
00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:41.789
I didn't really believe in the teaching of Christianity in Christ until I was in college.
00:26:41.869 --> 00:26:45.070
And that's just a way, a different way of thinking than many people have.
00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:50.030
And so I think some of them do come from questions they ask individually.
00:26:50.510 --> 00:26:57.309
Uh I remember one in history class teaching about the Israel textbook, and several students wanted to know the meaning of Passover.
00:26:57.550 --> 00:27:02.190
So I was able to individually just talk to them about that specific topic.
00:27:03.389 --> 00:27:07.150
Paul was alert for questions that may lead to a deeper discussion.
00:27:07.389 --> 00:27:15.309
I really appreciated his comments about the need for spiritual fellowship and connection, and that that was a criteria for where they chose to work.
00:27:15.550 --> 00:27:21.550
I also appreciated his heart to disciple his children and to be a spiritual leader in his home.
00:27:21.789 --> 00:27:31.309
No matter where we work or live, even in challenging environments, we can rest assured that God is there with us and that he has chosen to put us there for a purpose.
00:27:31.550 --> 00:27:39.070
His heart is to reach the world for Christ, and we can be used to make disciples no matter what environment we find ourselves.
00:27:39.550 --> 00:27:51.469
Join us next time for the conclusion of our interview with Paul as he shares with us some of the challenges and some of the surprising ways he and Susan have seen God's hand at work in their setting and lives.
00:27:51.630 --> 00:27:55.150
That's right here on Making Disciples Naturally.
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I was excited.
00:02:56.830 --> 00:03:00.590
I was ready to take on the world and serve the Lord.
00:03:00.830 --> 00:03:04.509
And I was also, there's there's some humbling that needed to take place.
00:03:04.590 --> 00:03:11.949
And I think one thing I learned that I often share with people was that first job was very isolated.
00:03:12.270 --> 00:03:15.390
I worked for an oil company in a trailer and it was a dark place.
00:03:15.550 --> 00:03:18.189
And I was convinced in the beginning that that was a good thing.
00:03:18.349 --> 00:03:25.710
I would have an opportunity to really shine light to my coworkers and share the truth with them, many of whom were not Christians.
00:03:25.949 --> 00:03:29.790
Over time, I was not engaged in Christian community.
00:03:30.110 --> 00:03:32.990
I didn't have opportunity to go to church very often.
00:03:33.150 --> 00:03:36.430
I was pretty disconnected from the church body.
00:03:36.590 --> 00:03:38.670
And also I was so busy with work.
00:03:38.830 --> 00:03:44.270
When I'd get home or get to the trailer and maybe to read God's word to spend time, I would fall asleep.
00:03:45.150 --> 00:03:54.110
So I just know that became a dry period when eventually I felt like I needed to quit because spiritually I was dying.
00:04:04.110 --> 00:04:09.230
This was the hard truth discovered by our friend Paul shortly after he graduated from college.
00:04:09.469 --> 00:04:14.990
He had come to faith during this time and was greatly influenced by the Navigators while in college.
00:04:15.230 --> 00:04:19.310
Hi, I'm David Dennis with the Kansas Communities Ministry with the Navigators.
00:04:19.470 --> 00:04:27.629
Thank you so much for listening to Making Disciples Naturally, where we believe that making disciples should be a natural part of every believer's walk.
00:04:27.870 --> 00:04:32.269
Today we are privileged to hear from Paul, who is a worker in North Africa.
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Now, for security reasons, we are using pseudonyms for his and his wife's names.
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He and his family moved there several years ago, and both he and his wife Susan teach at a school.
00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:45.470
This is a challenging environment.
00:04:45.710 --> 00:04:49.470
Paul was influenced greatly by the navigators while he was in college.
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He has a real heart for investing in the lives of individuals.
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But what does that look like in his setting?
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One of the criteria he had based on his experience working for the oil company right after college was the crucial need for fellowship and connection with the body of Christ wherever he went.
00:05:08.029 --> 00:05:12.830
I think we can learn a lot from Paul and Susan's perspective and experiences.
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Let's listen as he explains his story.
00:05:17.069 --> 00:05:19.950
So I'm really excited to have my friend Paul with me today.
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Paul and his wife Susan are workers in North Africa, so we'd like to kind of learn more about what that looks like in terms of our call to make disciples and what his life looks like.
00:05:31.230 --> 00:05:32.909
So welcome today, Paul.
00:05:33.230 --> 00:05:34.189
Thank you, David.
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It's good to be here, and I've been looking forward to our conversation.
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Oh, that's great.
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So let's, as we start, let's just uh maybe hear a little bit about your background, maybe family of origin, education.
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Just help us to get to know you a little bit better.
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I think a few brief things.
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Uh I, although not born in Kansas, most of my childhood was spent in Kansas in a Christian home with uh great parents.
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I have three brothers, one of whom is a twin, and that's played a large part throughout the years of that friendship and a lot of the things we share in common.
00:06:06.590 --> 00:06:11.470
We grew up going to a church, and that wasn't really a gospel preaching church.
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And so I grew up most of my childhood.
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I was really thinking I was a good person, and I believed that God existed, and I was supposed to be a good person.
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And so most of my my uh childhood was centered around school and sports.
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And so if you summarize those two things, that's most of what life was up until college.
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I mean, I I went to K-State.
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K-State, I studied civil engineering, and that's also where I met my my wife, Susan.
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So Okay, very good.
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Awesome.
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So let's talk about your time and in college.
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Maybe if you want to tell a little bit about how you guys met, that would be fine.
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But uh, especially kind of tell us about your spiritual journey at that point in your life.
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Yeah, uh, like I said, one big change.
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Well, the two probably largest changes in my life came in college where I think I was genuinely converted.
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I genuinely came to a saving relationship with Jesus, and I also met my wife Susan.
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So two really very important things.
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Um, Jesus first, obviously.
00:07:07.389 --> 00:07:13.230
And uh yeah, Susan and I met we met at church, and so we were involved in a lot of the same.
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So I I met her later in my college career after I'd already become a believer, but we were in the same small group at church and went to the same church and also found each other in a lot of the same gatherings.
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We were in an inter international student ministry and a prayer group that prayed for the nations, and we started to see each other in all these places, and that helped us connect the dots that we might be pretty like-minded.
00:07:36.430 --> 00:07:43.790
So, and then regarding uh my my spiritual journey in college, like I mentioned, I I did grow up going to church.
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I was familiar with a lot of the stories.
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I had parents who who really modeled a lot of the Christian values and Christian walk, but the the church we went to did not preach the gospel and really didn't teach the word of God, it was more stories.
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And so I grew up really thinking that God loved me, that I was a good person, and I was supposed to be good.
00:08:02.990 --> 00:08:13.870
And it was really in college when I started to get in involved in a Bible study with the Navigators, and then the same guy who was leading the Bible study invited me to the church that he went to.
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That it was through the an actual authentic involvement with other Christians who I got to know and they got to know me.
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I got to see into their lives, and also engaging with the word of God.
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I started to not just read the Bible because I had to or it was the right thing to do, but actually start to think about what I was reading and wanted to know what it said.
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So seeing Christ in the church, but also just seeing Christ in his word.
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When I I remember distinctively, I was reading the book of Philippians actually, and it wasn't, I don't remember if it was a verse, but I became convinced and aware I I was a sinner.
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I was not a good person, and those sins separated me from God, and I I needed a savior, and Jesus, Jesus is that savior.
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That was a, I think that was one of the lacks, one of the things I was not aware of was this reality of sin that separated me from God.
00:09:03.789 --> 00:09:06.990
And so that that dot was connected there at college as well.
00:09:07.149 --> 00:09:09.470
And so that's a little bit of my spiritual journey.
00:09:09.710 --> 00:09:11.870
So tell me about your experience with the navigators.
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Kind of what did that look like?
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Were there weekly meetings?
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Did you have interaction with individuals?
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Kind of paint a picture for what that was like at college.
00:09:19.870 --> 00:09:22.350
Uh I I think this will come up later in our conversation.
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But one of the things that I think really impacted me most in the Navigators was taking part in a kind of more of an evangelistic Bible study as a participant.
00:09:33.870 --> 00:09:39.470
And then later just inductive Bible studies with other young men in navigators.
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And so that was largely, it was pretty much every week we'd have a Bible study.
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We went through Mark at one point, and then some other Bible studies were more topical.
00:09:48.910 --> 00:09:55.710
So that was very influential in maturing me and helping me to see Christ, but also just getting to know other guys.
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And I think those were those are powerful because we were, I'm sure it had something to do with our we're we're young men in similar situation, but we're all actually opening up and sharing about our lives with God's word open, asking questions together and digging deeper.
00:10:10.190 --> 00:10:19.389
And that was powerful in growing me up, but also showing this seed of how important it is to be able to read God's word on your own and to study it and have the right questions to ask.
00:10:19.549 --> 00:10:22.829
Um, we also went to the kind of the weekly meetings and navigators.
00:10:23.069 --> 00:10:37.470
This guy that I mentioned earlier uh was also kind of meeting with us, uh, my twin brother and I, sometimes together, sometimes apart, kind of just trying to teach us um, disciple us um not only how to lead Bible studies, but what does it mean to walk the Christian life?
00:10:37.710 --> 00:10:40.990
Yeah, we're did they teach you tools to use as far as reaching out?
00:10:41.069 --> 00:10:43.470
Uh, the evangelistic Bible study, for example.
00:10:43.549 --> 00:10:45.629
Uh was that something that was helpful to you?
00:10:45.789 --> 00:10:48.750
And um, maybe the bridge illustration, things like that.
00:10:48.910 --> 00:10:53.069
What tools do you remember that they kind of gave you to use in your life?
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They equipped me with a lot of tools.
00:10:55.629 --> 00:10:58.029
And a lot of those tools were very helpful.
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Um, they're not perfect, no tool is perfect.
00:11:00.269 --> 00:11:07.629
In fact, we should always remember that tools are just, you know, they don't work for everybody, um, but they're helpful for certain contexts.
00:11:07.789 --> 00:11:10.750
And I was really, it was very helpful.
00:11:10.910 --> 00:11:17.309
Um, and this might be in the same line, but scripture memory is a big emphasis of the navigators.
00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:31.149
And we always want to read verses in their context, but I've found a lot of those verses have stuck with me over the years, both in teaching God's word or personally in meditation and and ministering to me when they come to mind.
00:11:31.230 --> 00:11:37.389
And so scripture memory was a tool, not only for personal devotional life and growth, but for ministry.
00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:44.750
Um, another tool was the wheel, um, just a way to think about the Christian life and some of these core components that need to be there.
00:11:45.070 --> 00:11:48.190
And the word hand, I still remember that illustration.
00:11:48.429 --> 00:11:48.750
Right.
00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:53.470
You get all the fingers on the hand, yeah, on the word the strong grip you have.
00:11:53.629 --> 00:11:56.830
And uh a lot of those are very catchy, they stick with you.
00:11:56.990 --> 00:11:57.310
Yeah.
00:11:57.549 --> 00:12:04.269
Um yeah, those Bible evangelistic Bible studies, I think they call them IBDs, investigative Bible studies in the in the group we were in.
00:12:04.429 --> 00:12:11.389
And I don't remember, I just remember the idea that that is an evangelistic tool, is getting people to actually engage with God's word.
00:12:11.870 --> 00:12:20.350
Based on uh what you had learned in your training and time with the navigators, did that influence what you decided to do after college, or was there a gap?
00:12:20.509 --> 00:12:22.830
Did you do something else before you're what you're doing now?
00:12:23.230 --> 00:12:24.750
I think this answers your question.
00:12:24.990 --> 00:12:38.909
But one thing the navigators did well, um, particularly the the group we were in, was instill the mindset, which I do think it's it's rooted in God's word, that discipling isn't kind of an optional or super Christian thing to do.
00:12:38.990 --> 00:12:42.509
It's actually something that should be the normal part of the Christian life.
00:12:42.750 --> 00:12:55.789
I knew no matter what I would do after college, whether it was um working in the marketplace or using my skills in ministry or bivocational or vocational, that discipling was going to be part of it.
00:12:56.350 --> 00:12:58.590
So I think navigators helped instill that.
00:12:58.669 --> 00:13:04.190
That's just part of the normal Christian life, to be seeking to disciple others, but also being disciple.
00:13:04.429 --> 00:13:11.230
And uh I do think I had a desire to engage in, I was planning to do kind of tent making.
00:13:11.389 --> 00:13:21.549
So using my my background um in a cross-cultural setting, I would be able to make disciples in a in a place where there were more uh people who had less exposure to the gospel.
00:13:21.789 --> 00:13:23.549
So tell us what you did then after college.
00:13:23.710 --> 00:13:27.310
Tell me kind of what what was your sequence of events after that?
00:13:27.710 --> 00:13:34.350
After college, I I worked briefly for an oil company, and you know, I think this probably fits in with this podcast.
00:13:34.509 --> 00:13:41.789
I I was young, I was excited, I was ready to take on the world and just serve the Lord.
00:13:42.029 --> 00:13:45.629
And I was also there's there's some humbling that needed to take place.
00:13:45.789 --> 00:13:53.070
And I think one thing I learned that I often share with people was that first job was very isolated.
00:13:53.149 --> 00:13:56.590
Um, I worked for an oil company in a trailer, and it was a dark place.
00:13:56.750 --> 00:13:59.389
And I was convinced in the beginning that that was a good thing.
00:13:59.549 --> 00:14:07.549
I would have an opportunity to really shine light to my coworkers and share the truth with them, uh, many of whom were not Christians.
00:14:07.789 --> 00:14:11.629
Over time, I was not engaged in Christian community.
00:14:11.950 --> 00:14:14.830
I didn't have opportunity to go to church very often.
00:14:15.070 --> 00:14:22.509
I would occasionally be emailing and touching base with other Christians, but I was pretty disconnected from the church body.
00:14:22.669 --> 00:14:24.669
And also I was so busy with work.
00:14:24.830 --> 00:14:30.429
When I'd get home or get to the trailer and maybe start to read God's word to spend time, I would fall asleep.
00:14:30.509 --> 00:14:41.629
Or so I just know that became a dry period when eventually I felt like I needed to quit because spiritually I was I was dying spiritually, I was uh not sustained.
00:14:41.710 --> 00:14:52.190
And uh I actually met a coworker who tried to convince me he was a higher up in the job, and he said, I'm a believer too, and I want you to stick with this because you're gonna be a soldier for the Lord.
00:14:52.350 --> 00:14:56.830
And I had to tell him, you know, I've I've got so little light left, I don't think I have much to shine.
00:14:56.990 --> 00:15:00.350
I need to, I need to be refreshed, I need to be with the body of Christ.
00:15:00.429 --> 00:15:09.470
And I think it was also in that period um with that job that I I felt a clear desire, a stronger conviction that I really wanted to serve the overseas.
00:15:09.549 --> 00:15:19.470
And that that job was I was hoping I actually was going to be sent to Saudi Arabia with that job, but I think the job itself was not best fit for me, and I knew I wanted to have a family at some point.
00:15:19.710 --> 00:15:23.070
And it was just uh not the best fit for a family life.
00:15:23.389 --> 00:15:24.269
Well, I really appreciate that.
00:15:24.509 --> 00:15:28.669
The importance of body life, of staying connected to the body.
00:15:28.750 --> 00:15:30.029
I think I really appreciate that.
00:15:30.269 --> 00:15:33.310
So tell me about your current situation, your current working.
00:15:33.389 --> 00:15:35.549
Uh you're no longer in the United States.
00:15:35.629 --> 00:15:37.149
Uh where are you working right now?
00:15:37.470 --> 00:15:41.870
Currently, Susan, Susan and I work at a school in North Africa.
00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:46.350
And uh we're we're still fairly new in this context.
00:15:46.429 --> 00:15:56.029
We've been there a couple years, but we're we're learning the language that people speak there and teaching English and history and science between my wife and I.
00:15:56.190 --> 00:15:57.870
So okay, good.
00:15:58.029 --> 00:16:02.669
So, what does what is making disciples look like in your setting right now?
00:16:02.990 --> 00:16:06.990
I like to use Arc Dever's definition of making disciples.
00:16:07.149 --> 00:16:09.149
I just appreciate it.
00:16:09.230 --> 00:16:10.990
It's a maybe a broader definition.
00:16:11.149 --> 00:16:19.389
He, I think, uses this definition in his book, discipling, is deliberately doing spiritual good to someone so that he or she will be more like Christ.
00:16:19.710 --> 00:16:22.429
Or it's just helping someone follow Jesus.
00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:24.269
I can think of at least three areas.
00:16:24.509 --> 00:16:26.110
And I've learned this over the years.
00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:31.310
I think this comes from God's word and it comes from wisdom from other brothers and sisters.
00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:33.149
I guess I can share a story.
00:16:33.310 --> 00:16:39.310
And I remember meeting a man on the field who said, My children are my primary disciples.
00:16:39.549 --> 00:16:47.870
And that struck me as strange because I thought, why would this guy go overseas and then say that his children are his primary disciples?
00:16:47.950 --> 00:16:50.909
I thought he was here to be to be reaching the nations.
00:16:50.990 --> 00:16:59.870
And I've seen the wisdom in those words that primarily, you know, if we're not discipling in our own homes, I don't really know what kind of discipling we'll be doing outside of our home.
00:17:00.029 --> 00:17:00.830
And that's not easy.
00:17:00.909 --> 00:17:13.230
But we have Susan and I have four four children, four girls, and primarily discipling it starts with trying to lead them to teach them what it means to follow Jesus, to train them up in the way of God.
00:17:13.470 --> 00:17:17.309
And we have family devotions is an important part of that.
00:17:17.470 --> 00:17:26.829
But something that comes to mind from our first two years in this location is that you know they're in a tough school surrounded by largely Muslims.
00:17:27.070 --> 00:17:38.990
And it as it turns out, those who lie the most, who push the hardest, and who cheat to get their way, who push others around, they're the ones who get the rewards in the school.
00:17:39.230 --> 00:17:43.789
They get seen, they get answers by the teacher, they get attention.
00:17:44.349 --> 00:17:53.230
Um, and we've tried um to train our daughters not to live this way, but to follow the way of Jesus and to live out the commands he's given.
00:17:53.389 --> 00:17:54.190
That's not easy.
00:17:54.349 --> 00:17:58.190
And so I think discipling in that context means helping them think through.
00:17:58.349 --> 00:18:08.670
We know you're not see you're not getting the immediate reward, but we're called to live for the one who sees all things and knows all things, the one who who gives good rewards and who sees our hearts.
00:18:08.829 --> 00:18:11.549
And so teaching them is this which are we gonna live for?
00:18:11.630 --> 00:18:14.829
You know, it's not easy, and that's that's not easy for a young young kid.
00:18:14.990 --> 00:18:21.230
So I've been personally challenged as I try to lead my children through this kind of this discipleship question.
00:18:21.389 --> 00:18:22.670
So that's one context.
00:18:22.750 --> 00:18:25.150
Uh the other one would largely be our workplace.
00:18:25.309 --> 00:18:35.470
So we spend the large part of our our our time has been in a classroom with coworkers and students, um, almost all of whom are not Christian.
00:18:35.630 --> 00:18:36.990
Um, they'd be Muslim.
00:18:37.309 --> 00:18:48.509
So I'm thankful that a lot of my life gets to be lived before these students and coworkers as someone I believe by God's grace is filled with his spirit and still far to go.
00:18:48.670 --> 00:18:57.230
Sometimes I've had to apologize or ask, I just admit I did something wrong in the classroom, which itself I think it can be a testimony.
00:18:57.389 --> 00:19:08.110
But I I appreciate the hours that I've had with these students and my coworkers to demonstrate what I hope is a life that is seeking to follow Jesus, and that's very different.
00:19:08.349 --> 00:19:10.269
But it's also opened up a lot of conversations.
00:19:10.429 --> 00:19:16.670
We've been able to sow a lot of seeds in a lot of a lot of them actually come from co-workers or students asking me questions.
00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:20.750
They have a certain belief about what Christians believe and how they act.
00:19:20.829 --> 00:19:31.869
And I get to not only live a life that I hope counters some of those wrong beliefs, but also answer questions about what the Christian faith really teaches, what the Bible really is, who Jesus really is.
00:19:32.269 --> 00:19:36.269
And so, but those often come in the course of normal conversations.
00:19:36.509 --> 00:19:42.750
And uh just one example, I had a student who's really interested in how do we get the Bible in the Quran and asking questions.
00:19:42.829 --> 00:19:56.750
And so I got to just talk with him over the period of a few months, I think, helping him think through what I believe, where the Bible's come from, and help him ask questions of is the book that you have, is it where did it come from?
00:19:56.829 --> 00:19:58.670
Is it trust which which is true?
00:19:58.829 --> 00:20:04.349
And so that's just an example of what some opportunities we've had in the workplace.
00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:08.349
I guess maybe a third is our neighborhood, which I'll maybe talk about later.
00:20:08.429 --> 00:20:13.469
But we try to intentionally build relationships with all the people we live with in our neighborhood.
00:20:13.869 --> 00:20:19.070
And some of those, you know, haven't haven't really gone very far or actually feel like they're going backwards.
00:20:19.230 --> 00:20:25.789
But others, we've had a lot of opportunity to develop really meaningful relationships with people.
00:20:25.949 --> 00:20:27.869
We want to show them we care about them.
00:20:28.030 --> 00:20:32.110
We we want to be good neighbors to them, and we also care about their spiritual health.
00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:39.389
And so we have an opportunity to ask about questions about their belief and share our testimonies at one point and talk about spiritual truth.
00:20:39.630 --> 00:20:51.869
I really appreciate your comment about uh your children are your primary disciples, and I super appreciate the fact that you, as the father, are taking the lead, you know, in that area of spiritual training and discipleship for your kids.
00:20:51.949 --> 00:20:53.230
So thank you for doing that.
00:20:53.469 --> 00:20:58.829
Getting back to your time at the school, how do people know that you are a Christian believer?
00:20:59.070 --> 00:21:06.110
Is it because you're from America and all Americans are Christians, supposedly, or um how how do they learn that?
00:21:06.429 --> 00:21:07.869
Yeah, that is a good question.
00:21:07.949 --> 00:21:15.309
And this might overlap with other questions you have, but one of the first things people ask me often in this country is, are you Muslim?
00:21:15.630 --> 00:21:16.909
And I'm and I'm not.
00:21:17.070 --> 00:21:23.469
And I, in the very that in the bit most basic form, being able to say, no, I'm not Muslim.
00:21:23.550 --> 00:21:33.150
I I believe in Jesus, I follow Jesus, I'm a Christian, offers a counterpulture, uh a challenge to the idea that everyone there is Muslim.
00:21:33.389 --> 00:21:38.190
And I some of them I think assume that, yeah, if you're from the West, you're probably a Christian.
00:21:38.349 --> 00:21:43.789
But I've been able to actually um just be be clear about the fact that I am a Christian.
00:21:43.949 --> 00:21:46.030
What our school really values professionalism.
00:21:46.110 --> 00:21:51.630
And so we want to, we are we honestly, we do not advocate one belief system.
00:21:51.949 --> 00:21:58.510
Uh our school is is not so it just seeks to be open and tolerant to people from any faith.
00:21:58.590 --> 00:22:04.030
It doesn't advocate one specific faith, but each teacher is welcome to have a faith of their own.
00:22:04.110 --> 00:22:12.190
And so there are most of our coworkers are Muslim, and I'm a Christian, and I get opportunities to share that as kind of life comes about you.
00:22:12.349 --> 00:22:13.389
So yeah, yeah.
00:22:13.630 --> 00:22:18.429
So would you say that your co-workers are pretty open to discussing spiritual things?
00:22:18.590 --> 00:22:21.230
Uh the it sounds like they are asking you questions.
00:22:21.469 --> 00:22:25.630
Is that an area of the of interest of some of your coworkers at least?
00:22:25.949 --> 00:22:27.469
That's a good it's a good question.
00:22:27.550 --> 00:22:31.150
It's hard to see true spiritual interest sometimes.
00:22:31.309 --> 00:22:39.550
Sometimes the question can be polite, sometimes it can just be argumentative in an attack with zero desire to listen or hear.
00:22:39.949 --> 00:22:43.070
It does seem that there are some who who are interested.
00:22:43.230 --> 00:22:45.150
They don't know that many actual Christians.
00:22:45.309 --> 00:22:47.070
And so there are some who've asked questions.
00:22:47.230 --> 00:22:48.510
Just an encouraging story.
00:22:48.670 --> 00:22:56.989
You know, there was a a young woman at this school who was just really interested in Christianity and didn't know hardly any Christians.
00:22:57.150 --> 00:23:01.869
And once she found out that actually there's a church in the city we are in, there's only one, and it's small.
00:23:02.030 --> 00:23:03.710
She didn't even know that there was one.
00:23:03.869 --> 00:23:09.550
She heard about this through something my daughters wrote in a paper and decided she wanted to visit.
00:23:09.630 --> 00:23:16.349
And she's had a chance to engage with um another teacher who's a believer, and she has lots of questions and she's very interested.
00:23:16.510 --> 00:23:18.269
So there are some who are interested.
00:23:18.429 --> 00:23:25.710
There's others who it's it's uh, you know, as we get to know each other, our faith is my relationship to Jesus is central to my whole life.
00:23:25.869 --> 00:23:36.030
And so it's it's not hard and it's important when we talk about why people celebrate these holidays or do this activity or abstain and don't do this activity.
00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:45.389
Um, asking them questions about their traditions, their holidays, their family life, their culture often opens the door for them to respond with a question back.
00:23:45.869 --> 00:23:51.789
And there's been times that it seems people don't just ask it in a polite manner, but actually want to know more.
00:23:51.949 --> 00:23:54.829
So from co-workers, there is some genuine interest at times.
00:23:55.230 --> 00:24:07.230
Would you say you, and this is probably a personal choice question, but in general, do you set about to think of a way to bring up spiritual things, or do you find that it happens fairly naturally in conversation?
00:24:07.550 --> 00:24:17.309
Probably both would describe there's uh, for example, I was intentional during the month of Ramadan to think how can I engage with the people around me.
00:24:18.030 --> 00:24:22.269
And so I thought about different things I could do, but particularly what I could ask.
00:24:22.429 --> 00:24:26.429
And a very simple question was just so why are you fasting?
00:24:26.670 --> 00:24:32.829
And hearing, you know, each person, some of them gave similar answers, but each person kind of gave an answer of their own.
00:24:33.230 --> 00:24:47.469
But I was intentional to ask think of a question that I could ask that would help them engage with some things, you know, and I've learned this personally, there's some things I don't even think about in the in the culture I'm from until someone's asked me a question to think about it.
00:24:47.630 --> 00:24:47.869
Right.
00:24:48.030 --> 00:24:48.269
Exactly.
00:24:48.429 --> 00:24:50.750
And then when I'm asked that question, I start thinking about it.
00:24:50.909 --> 00:24:53.469
I don't even know why I do something or why I believe something.
00:24:53.630 --> 00:24:57.309
And so a lot of times those questions will open the door for further conversation.
00:24:57.550 --> 00:25:10.590
On the other hand, sometimes it's it's not intentional in uh in the moment, it's just a more of a lifestyle and an intention that I I just genuinely want all of our our friends, our family to know Jesus who is life.
00:25:10.670 --> 00:25:17.150
And that drives at times, as you might understand, at times in an unhealthy way, trying to push that in.
00:25:17.230 --> 00:25:25.710
But I I've think I've learned over the years that still learning, but maybe take that slower and just ask questions and walk into doors that might be opening.
00:25:26.829 --> 00:25:27.469
Absolutely.
00:25:27.789 --> 00:25:37.949
With your students, do you pretty much wait until they bring up questions or do you do you plant any any seeds at all as you're teaching, maybe English, for example?
00:25:38.349 --> 00:25:39.550
That's a good, you know.
00:25:39.630 --> 00:25:44.190
I I think that I would tend towards answering questions as they come.
00:25:44.429 --> 00:25:44.590
True.
00:25:44.750 --> 00:25:49.469
I really want to take faithfully this, you know, uh, I don't want the school.
00:25:49.949 --> 00:25:59.389
You know, we are not a Christian school, and so I don't want to make it seem as if their classes are coming from a Christian worldview necessarily.
00:25:59.630 --> 00:26:00.030
Right.
00:26:00.349 --> 00:26:12.349
But as you know, some simple examples are, you know, we were doing a read-aloud, and the topic was about uh we read The Boys in the Boat together, and and there was one character who is a Jew.
00:26:12.510 --> 00:26:20.349
And through that, I I can't remember if a student asked the question or if I just as we talked through it, people could clearly want to know more.
00:26:20.989 --> 00:26:27.070
We just talked about our identity, and it gave me the opportunity just to share, you know, some some worldviews.
00:26:27.230 --> 00:26:31.309
You're born with a certain belief, or you're born into an identity.
00:26:31.469 --> 00:26:36.510
But in in my case, I even though I grew up in a Christian home, I didn't actually become a Christian.
00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:41.789
I didn't really believe in the teaching of Christianity in Christ until I was in college.
00:26:41.869 --> 00:26:45.070
And that's just a way, a different way of thinking than many people have.
00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:50.030
And so I think some of them do come from questions they ask individually.
00:26:50.510 --> 00:26:57.309
Uh I remember one in history class teaching about the Israel textbook, and several students wanted to know the meaning of Passover.
00:26:57.550 --> 00:27:02.190
So I was able to individually just talk to them about that specific topic.
00:27:03.389 --> 00:27:07.150
Paul was alert for questions that may lead to a deeper discussion.
00:27:07.389 --> 00:27:15.309
I really appreciated his comments about the need for spiritual fellowship and connection, and that that was a criteria for where they chose to work.
00:27:15.550 --> 00:27:21.550
I also appreciated his heart to disciple his children and to be a spiritual leader in his home.
00:27:21.789 --> 00:27:31.309
No matter where we work or live, even in challenging environments, we can rest assured that God is there with us and that he has chosen to put us there for a purpose.
00:27:31.550 --> 00:27:39.070
His heart is to reach the world for Christ, and we can be used to make disciples no matter what environment we find ourselves.
00:27:39.550 --> 00:27:51.469
Join us next time for the conclusion of our interview with Paul as he shares with us some of the challenges and some of the surprising ways he and Susan have seen God's hand at work in their setting and lives.
00:27:51.630 --> 00:27:55.150
That's right here on Making Disciples Naturally.
