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Welcome to interrogating spaces. A podcast that examines ideas around inclusivity and attainment in higher education. We speak with staff, students and practitioners to explore questions around democratic and decolonize teaching practices.
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In this episode of interrogating spaces, Dr are meeting each other and speaks with international students and alumni about their students experience as well as discussions on decolonial practice and how this relates to research.
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Hi, I'm Amita Andy Chapman, I work at the University of the Arts London, in the academic enhancement team, specifically at LCC London College of Communication as attainment and progression project manager. One of the things that I do is working with courses, staff and students to look at how we can embed more decolonial approaches more social justice and climate justice, perhaps sometimes as well into the curriculum and learning experience. As part of these roles, recently, I delivered some workshops for graphic media and design, and had this wonderful conversation with a few people who are here in the US some of whom are in the studio today. What we're going to try and do is for the three of us to talk about, you know what our approach is, when we think about decolonization, how does that link with our artistic practice, perhaps, or our research or the work that we do at UL, and then we can, we can see kind of where the conversation leads us. I'm also I'm a dance studies researcher and practitioner and a creative writer. So I might draw on those experiences when I'm talking as well.
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My name is Disha Deshpande, I'm an admin Course Support Assistant for the overarching graphic design, communication and design courses at London College of Communication. I graduated with a degree in culture criticism and curation. So that's kind of how my decolonization practice comes out is through my critical writing, sort of exhibition design and the the research that's involved in those
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I'm Pharez(Emmanuel Aouad) , I'm a final
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So it'd be really good for each of us, processes.
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year student at the London College of Communication, studying Graphic and Media Design. Prior to this, I've perhaps I thought to reflect on first, you know, what it's like practised as a photographer and creative executive for probably close to a decade now. I've been living in the UK for the last almost six years now, prior to that I grew up in Ghana. And so a lot of my experiences and my takes on pretty much everything to do the thing we do at UAL or LCC. And just to situate things we will speak about is drawing from the experiences that I've had, which is quite, you know, diverse and wide.
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a little bit more in in our work. So when I do my work, I'm cross colleges, but I'm also specifically at LTC at times.
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But then the other strand of my work is creative writing, which I bring into my workshops at LCC annuelle. But I predominantly do the writing sort of when I'm in not in my not with my UL hat on.
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And so my experience, I guess, I love working at UL, and the different reasons for this, but primarily, one of the things I find here, which I really, really enjoy and admire is how many people are very reflective about their work. You know, I really enjoy that. So there's less of a there is the there is the you know, the thing that's probably there in all workplaces, which is let's get on with it and do the work. But there's also a sense that people have time to reflect on the need and want desire to, to reflect on why we're doing things in a particular way. And is there space to do things differently, which I think is perhaps, given that I've worked and lectured in other universities is somewhat unique, you know that that space for reflection. So I really admire that, that there is that there is that space for creativity and reflection and a sense that we're trying to do better Sometimes it's a bit like we're trying to do better all the time. But there is there is that space. So I admire that. I think there are challenges at LCC, you know, there are challenges that perhaps all lecturers and tutors will talk about core support will talk about which is there can be mixed levels of engagement and attendance with students. And that can feel challenging at times, you know how to help students who drift off a little bit or fall off the grid a little bit how to get them help them to come back, to engage more to, you know, to do really well in their work. So that's, that's a challenge that I find, you know, I want to use a decolonial approach to help with that by collaborating with students more by making sure that students feel more represented, you know, in the curriculum and the learning experience in the examples we use in the classroom or the studio, even in the industry.
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But that level of representation is something that we are nowhere near, you know, so there is a diversity in students, but that diversity isn't always reflected perhaps in the staff or the leadership teams isn't always reflected in the industries that we work in. So the and that diversity is all kinds of diversity. It's not only race and ethnicity is sexuality is gender, its age, its class, its cultural background, it's how you see yourself all that needs to be represented more. And I think that challenge sometimes reflects itself, perhaps in students not quite feeling like they belong, and then falling off the grid and the radar. So that's my experience of working here that I that I really admire the space and love it. But also find that, you know, changes that I want to see happen in the world is reflected in micro format UL all the time. So I'm challenged with the need for social change and climate change. I'm chat I'm forced to see that as I work at UL, which can be a plus and a minus at times.
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I think specifically from my experience, I had two like very different experiences studying at UAL and then working at UAL as I am right now. So I studied at CSM, but then I'm working at LCC and even from looking looking outside into LCC, it always seemed like the more diverse campus and CSM I could, I felt very ostracised but also there was the element of being an international student that at that time, when I when I entered CSM. Overall I felt like the when you were talking about sort of the change that you want to see or the the reflectiveness of people, I feel like UAL is a space where I feel comfortable knowing or like, I know that there is like people are going to take accountability, like in other workspaces, you wouldn't, if you don't think people are going to take responsibility or take accountability or like own up to what they've done or try and reflect and change, then you're not going to bring it up and I think that you will does a good at least image wise has a has a good reputation for accountability, which I am now seeing more as I work here, rather than when I was studying law because I felt so like out of out of place and like a fish out of water. When I was studying, they're just like completely, you know, like untethered kind of I've got a bit of back and forth between India and the UK. So like my primary my primary school education was here. But then a lot of my like thought forming yours and like the the years that I formed my personality and my opinions and stuff was in India so like a lot of the things that I think of in my opinions are my perspective comes from that approach. But then at the same time, it's still in it's still informed by my my time in the UK prior. So when I came to the UK, to London as an international student, I thought that I had a footing I thought that I like kind of knew what was going on. But then coming into uni, and especially the course that I was on culture and criticism seemed to be very imbalanced, like very imbalanced. i Yeah. My major takeaway was that the only way to get into that sort of industry of what I was doing was to already have connections in that industry, where it felt very like nepotistic that the people who were doing well and the people who were having the career that I at that time wanted Whether people who's who, you know, had the benefit of being in that world already, and there seemed to be no opening whatsoever, and you didn't give me that opening, either. So that was my experience. But working at LCC has been a lot, especially being involved in the sort of initiatives. It kind of shifts my perspective and it makes me think that that perhaps maybe I wasn't seeking out the opportunities as much as I should have been or could have been. It's interesting,
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isn't it, because what you're reflecting on there, there's a couple of things that I think probably everyone's experience when you work when you when you're in London, one that it is about who you know, quite often it can seem like that. So you have to form those contacts and those networks before you can really find a place for yourself, which I totally agree with. And it's so daunting to have to do. But the other thing you're talking about is perhaps a little feeling of sort of being an imposter in a way in the in the world that you wanted to be in and yet couldn't quite see your way getting into perhaps, I mean, in terms of inclusion and belonging at CSM. How did you feel about that? Like, did you feel like there was a place for you at the university, or at the time did it not seem like that?
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I feel like especially coming from, I'm not sure if this is entirely unique to me, I think it's generally like an international student thing. You have the international students who are kind of it, who are who are kind of able to be here and live here. Because they have the the support and the and the funds required to be here. And then you have the international students who are kind of working full time jobs while they're at uni, who aren't able to then participate in the societies who are then further alienated because they're international, they don't have friends already, they don't have time to make friends. So it just in that way, it kind of an all of the events seem to be events that people were already in the know about, or they already had opinions or things to discuss. Whereas I was going there trying to like trying to this being my first introduction to the things to the to this concept, or to this artists with this exhibition.
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And I think the art world in general, is is difficult to access, but then coming from that extra hurdle of like, international and not knowing that art speak and not knowing who these people are in this in this in this setting where they are, they are the contemporary artists.
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I have a question just based out of curiosity, having been a student in UAL, and having been, you know, part of staff. As far as working culture and studying culture goals, what would you say? The differences are and the overlaps? And what do you think, requires a lot of attention?
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Because you did make a point.
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You know, it's a struggle that I dealt with in the beginning, if you if you're joining, and say, for example, you're working full time, and studying full time as well, that leaves you little to no social life at all. And I think this is something that should almost have been accounted for a very long time ago. Because, you know, first of all, it's an art college, right?
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So design thinking is meant to be a part of who we are. So that means we should have thought on a stretch to cover as much as possible. So everybody doesn't, you know, everybody feels welcome and not necessarily alienated regardless of their circumstances.
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Yeah, I think part of that is like it's not necessarily the university's fault, the university as as like a, as a curriculum, or like as, as sort of this platform for all of these social events and stuff is not it's, it's, it's not like the university isn't lacking in these opportunities. It's it's the fundamental structure of it, isn't it that like, international students are paying so much and then coming in and then not able to keep up
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There is something about the system that isn't quite facilitating a compassionate perhaps way of being for students or you know, some some something about it fields not compassionate not not something that invites you in.
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There's something a bit forbidding perhaps about the you know, the world it creates
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Yeah and that and that's, that's what I'm just like struggling to put my finger on. It's like what is it exactly that that was stopping me from, from seeing these things or like going into these things I'm like, in myself, I put it on myself quite a lot of the time where I'm like, Oh, you weren't, you were just nervous, you're anxious, you didn't want to You were scared to socialise, you were scared that you would say something stupid, and then people would laugh at you because you didn't know this artist or whatever. But at the same time, I don't think any of my any of the of my close friends who were all international students as well during that time. Also, like who were very extroverted and everything they didn't, they didn't go to these events, either they didn't know what was happening or like, didn't feel comfortable in those spaces either. So what that I feel like all of all of the all of the social events put so much emphasis in the pamphlets and in the in the sort of coffee that that this is an inclusive space, like everyone is welcome. But at the same time, what is stopping us? What is it? Because is it?
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Is it? Is it all of us? Or is it something to do with AI? Yeah, just but
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even even even if it is anxiety, say even if it were, it's still down to the institution to some extent to facilitate your being able to kind of cope with that anxiety and then still be able to do the things you want to do. Right? So it's still, in a sense, the system is implicated in that, even if, even if you're acknowledging that it was anxiety, we can't just teach students who don't feel anxious, because that will leave out most most people, right. So there is something that obviously is there for us to learn. As, as as as a as an institution. As far as what about you like, what's your experience of ual? Do you Do you like it? Do you hate it?
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Do I have a very, very neutral stance, as far as UAL comes, I think it's a brilliant institution. It's it while I was working on my dissertation, it was mostly focused around you know, symbols, semiotics, and, in particular, I chose to use the Ghana coat of arms as case study. Now, I found out that the designer of the Ghana Coat of Arms was actually a past student of LCC. I thought that was very interesting. Now being someone who I think this was in the 50s.
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And so you know, then London College of printing, right? You would be surprised to know that I could not find a single piece of information regarding his time here, his work that he's done here, that brought up a whole lot of red flags for me.
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And I quickly also found out that a lot of the resources and this was right from year one, a lot of the resources that are made, and this is probably not in any fault of the school's current administration. I think, like she said, these are systems that have been put in place for very long time. And so knowingly or unknowingly, we are blocked off from a certain kind of knowledge, that would empower as much diversity as possible, right? So initially, when I first joined those, that excitement, but you know that when the reality sets in, and you realise that it's not all as straight as it seems, that is where that sort of anxiety comes in, because you're not even sure how to navigate your own self in the first place. And so when I first joined, it was very, because I was also working full time and studying full time. It was a very confusing time. It was okay, for the most part, but I remember two very interesting people dropping off the course.
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And I thought the course was fine. It was structured, okay. I know the tutors put in as much effort as they can to deliver, you know, regardless of situations, because I think when I joined almost a year later, COVID said, and then there's so much disruption, right? So I've had my back and forwards. I've actually had run ins with actual tutors like administrative stuff, just because some things didn't make sense to me. And I tried to speak out and in a sense, in a sense, I was almost kind of shut down. But also when I made a complaint about it, I also got as much support as I needed. So it's it's very, it's more like an oversight. I think, because we're spending so much time as an institution trying to do the right things. Some other things fall through the cracks and we don't necessarily realise that until the numbers start, you know, going up, and so more people start complaining about certain things that we don't necessarily realise. And that's okay. Actually, I think, cause some problems take time to actually surface for everybody to realise its, you know, seriousness. So for me, it's been very neutral. Sometimes it's been, you know, up there, and sometimes it's not been so great, but I think UAL as an institute, whatever it sets out to do, as far as educating people in the art does quite a good job at that. I'm, I'm, I'm witness to that, based on my experiences before I joined the college and the university as a whole. So yeah, it's Yeah.
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I mean, I was gonna say that it's funny, obviously, we're only just talking about our experience of being at UAL, but already, the you know, the sort of the decolonial lens is coming into what each of us is saying. So what Disha said about being a international student, and about belonging, not belonging, you know, being an imposter in the art world, all of this is very much to me, question of, you know, representation, diversity, how we are, you know, how many of us feel we can have a voice, we can have a place, all of that, to me is very much embedded in decolonial approach, and what Flores is saying, to, you know, just what you said about the designer of the coat of arms, not having a name anymore, most, you know, and and so what does that say about who, again, who's seen and who's not seen in the history of LCC, like, you know, what do we see as the ideal student of LCC and who gets who gets a place in history and who doesn't? So that seems very appropriate. I mean, to me, I suppose, you know, like, for as an Disha, I have also lived in other places like the United States and India. And so that, you know, I do, again, that international, I do bring that sort of international sensibility with me, but where I see, in fact, the sort of the heart these questions of, you know, representation and diversity play out in my life the most is actually perhaps, when I work as a writer I work at so I'm a fiction writer under a slightly different name. And in publishing, there's a great call for diversity, quote, unquote, and inclusion. But it can very often feel a bit tick box to a lot of people. Because what happens is, sometimes when agents and editors have their lists of authors, and if they already feel like they have enough of a diverse representation, they've ticked the box, that it goes as far as that. Sometimes also, it goes as far as having diverse authors, but not necessarily being able to play with what they get to write. So there has been in fiction, for example, there has been this thing where so non white authors can do literary fiction, but not necessarily popular genre, humorous fiction.
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So there are doors that are, you know, still have to be knocked on and still have to be broken, I think undisrupted. So yeah, I suppose that's where I see it play out most often. I what I do like about UL is that there are there is the possibility of talking about race and talking about all of the other things that we were, we were saying make up diversity, and I think that to me, is quite important.
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Yeah, because I mean, media and popular culture representations of South Asian femininity drive me nuts. And, you know, so a part of my work, both in writing and perhaps in dance studies, to some extent, was always to play with those elements, you know, when you represent South Asian femininity, and sexuality, uh, you know, why are there such stereotypical very stifling versions? And so part of what, where I keep on trying to push against representations of, you know, of South Asian women is that is in those kinds of areas.
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And, you know, that those remains still really important to me. So can we then each of us reflect a little bit also on our approach? When we talk about decolonization? What is it to us, it doesn't play a part in the work that we do, or the way we see ourselves? You know, because just linking back to what I just said, to me, in my own personal life, if I look at the decolonial approach, it's, it's often pushing against, you know, again, notions and representations of South Asian femininity, but those notions often come from other Indian people. This is the thing so, you know, even though it's a decolonial approach, and it should be, you know, often in activism That is about, you know, pushing against sort of a colonial mantle to me, South Asian see South Asian femininity in a very problematic way. And that does have a colonial history because, you know, we're talking about colonialism in India happening during Victorian times. And so Victorian morality certainly affected how Indian women were then seen, you know, this idea of Indian women as being able to, you know, work and voting and stuff wasn't ever a major problem in India, for women. So that wasn't the thing, but the sexuality was very, you know, stifled and confined under a very heteronormative system.
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You know, so I think part of, you know, a part of what my issue is, always is pushing against how South Asian women are, you know, even now, when you look at media representations of South Asian, British women, British, South Asian women, media representations, they're doctors, they're there. They're police, women and lawyers. And that's it, you know, you don't see artists, you don't see women who have a sexual life of any kind, you don't see personal lives depicted, they're always sort of a bit stifled in the, in whatever personal life they have. And so to me, you know, those aren't just the way British media sees South Asian women, it's often also how South Asians control South Asian women as well. So you know, we are looking at a complex kind of matrix of nationalism, diaspora and colonialism, which isn't very simple to just kind of disrupt and change. But yeah, I wondered what you two you know, how you two felt, your I don't know what your connection is, with decolonial work or how you see it play out in your life.
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I think just going on from what you were thinking about, I think, my my viewpoint is that like, keeping the audience in mind is kind of like a decolonial approach, because because all of the media and all of the art that we see the sort of the creator the individual is put on like the on the pedestal and like the individual is the is the person who is sort of this mastermind genius who creates the work, rather than the work being created for an audience. So like, in terms of representation, like we see these represented these like perpetuated stereotypes. And we're like, I already know this, like, I already know, this, this version of this person, because we've been seeing it for so long. Like, I want to see, like I am, I am a brown woman, I want to see someone who's like me, or I want to see a different something different, like this should, this should, this character should speak to me, like me knowing all of this history, all of this, like cultural, like context of this character already, just from them being a brown person. Like, I feel like that's, that's the, the, you know, the route where it's like, you're speaking up to an audience in a way you're not, you're not like reverting back down to stereotypes to just make it relatable in that sense.
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Yeah, and stereotypes are obviously very, very problematic. But it's also this, this feeling of, you know, people already know, thinking they know you just because of what you what they think your cultural background or affiliation is. And assuming, because sort of stereotypical things about you, that's always tricky, isn't it?
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The way I see it is very much in connection with the conversation we had the other day, which is kind of always correcting the baseline, the blueprint or the foundation, and so on. It's a matter of basic decency, you know, there's a reason people have names, right? Because in order to identify someone, they need to have a name as a very base on a basic level, right? If someone is being identified in a way that they don't feel like they should be identified in, especially if factually and dating historically, it's there's a narrative that has been distorted over time, to the extent that we're seeing ramifications in the modern day, right, just based on like you said, stereotypes and you know, these very little things that we take for granted on a day to day basis. I think that we're meant so where we decolonize is, fix it from the bottom right. We document things we want to document right. And so if you want to document the things you want to document this, document it right and address people right And so, as creators, and as artists, and you know, people who aim to find as much equality, I think that decolonizing starts with addressing the base, we need to prioritise accurately addressing people and things. And this is where disruption comes in.
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Because then if we do that, it gives leeway for growth and progress, because then now we can disrupt, right? So that's what in a nutshell, that's what I'm thinking, as far as you know, decolonization got
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brilliant, this question of, you know, when we do decolonial work, are we trying to correct wrongs from history? Or are we trying to disrupt the status quo, and perhaps they're the same thing in the end or in outcome, but the approach is slightly different, or the understanding is slightly different. So for us, I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, who's allowed agency, right, like, who's allowed to represent themselves?
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Versus who's then allowed to not not have that representation? So So am I allowed to be my version of female or whatever? I have heard South Asian or whatever?
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Or am I just the version that someone else says, you know, this is what what, what typically meant to be?
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I have a question, though, what constitutes authority for who gets to tell the story? To not just who gets to tell it? But what what war will make up the authority for them to? Yeah,
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and that's hugely kind of implicated in colonialism as well, right?
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Like, who gets to say, Who has the authority, like in its layers of power? Right? And I think that's, that's it, isn't it? That's, that's the heart of the question. And, you know, I suppose, because I remember when we first came up with this question of, is it are we trying to correct or disrupt? You know, the reason that I slightly was nervous around the word correction was because, again, going back to what I said before, that, very often, South Asian women or Indian women have been told what to be and who they can be by other Indian people, you know, and that is meant to be the, quote, unquote, correct way, which I've always found, you know, that's dangerous, that you that that, that people who tell you what your went, what you're meant to be like, are the people that supposedly have authority, because they were also defeated alone, you know, the colonial side of things in India. So it's like, you know, who has the authority to tell people what they can be is a really, really fundamental question. I think,
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going back to the storytelling point that you had, and like, the storytelling traditions of different of different peoples in different cultures. If you think of a story, it's like, it's, it's not exactly linear, it ebbs and flows, it changes, it takes turns and everything. And I think that sort of the, what I see with disruption versus versus correction is that it's a continuation and that like, rather than, like, a factual truth, again, and that being like a definite thing, the sort of like, redressal, and like, looking at the context, the historical context, and all of this confluence of different cultures and influences, and, like, people and events that happened to then come to the point where we're like, well, we can look at something and then be like, oh, all of these things have happened. Therefore, this is why we have to, to address it in in this certain way. And in a similar way, where we get where we're talking about, like pre colonial, as being as being some form of decolonization where it's where it's not it, because reversion is not is not going to be progression is the complete opposite.
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Yeah, no, I think that that's it, isn't it?
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It's correction sometimes takes different forms. I think that's what it is, depends on who wants to correct and in what way,
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again, that doesn't really answer who has the authority or who has this.
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It's that thing of like to know, you can never say, I objectively know 100% of this subject, because for that, you have to know 100% of 10 other subjects, in the same way that all of the systems are interconnected and all of these histories and different different timelines, a different eras different just.
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Yeah, that's, that's why I find, like definitive answers or like hard truths, the hard facts, a very difficult thing to conceptualise for myself when it comes to decolonization.
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Again, really important because what you're saying, partly is also that the colonial project has always valued certainty over over multiplicity, perhaps or fluidity hybridity, you know, as the colonial project prefers absolutes, doesn't it in a way a Me, me and you, us and them, you know, the self and the other or all of those sets
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the collective with the audience and stuff like that
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as well, exactly sort of labels that are neater, perhaps. And, you know, so the question of correctness or truth or fact then become slightly, you know, whose truth whose fact who's whose history whose story. And whereas, whereas if we then truly decolonize, we want multiplicity to be existing at the same time rather than either or right. So we want to be able to say, I'm only partially right, you know, and you're partially right, and someone else's partially right, and there are multiple partial truths. Yeah, which would be nice. I'd come.
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But I think I think the the real, I wouldn't say solution. But a large part of the solution would be to say, what I'm partly right and your party, right? Let's find a way to accurately get this down.
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Because then in the future, someone else is going to be partly right. And someone else is going to be partly right, right. So you know, and this is where the authority comes in.
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And I think it's not in an equal measure. It's if if, if we go back to pre colonial, it's not necessarily regression, it's more kind of education, in a sense, because if you pay attention to if you draw attention to it, you're, you're gonna learn a little bit much more from it than if you use a lens of your current environment. Right. So I think that authority generally comes from a mixture of revisiting history. And, you know, again, like you said, correcting is very difficult, because it's not set in stone, you can't necessarily go back and think everything will be the way it used to be. Because then again, it becomes progression, right?
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So it's an equal parts, not an equal parts, trying to always add a certain level of authority where that authority comes from historical accuracy, a deep cultural knowledge based on the subject, and also just general empathy. And this could all be summed up in the form of an old lady sitting somewhere in Kenya, you know, so I think that authority, we do our bit to try and bridge the gap. But the missing piece is always going back to the source and finding that sort of authenticity to kind of complete the whole, the whole story, you know, and that's what I think as far as authority goes, I think we must always do our bit. But it's important to find an authentic source to kind of plug in that missing piece,
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I think, people are we in this discussion of decolonization have a different idea of authority than what it is in reality, because we see authority as as like heritage, and experiential, and all have this, like it's an abstract do, you don't have a degree to have authority, but then in the system that we're in it, you have a like, that's how you gain authority, there is a hierarchy, you go through these certain hurdles and stuff. And that's how you become reputable. I think coming from from the admin perspective, especially in the university, and like bring tying it back to what initially we had was that there's this individuals want to have change, and individuals are open to this flexible idea of history and like this fluidity and it being a conversation and it being constantly changing. But then the way that the university is set up, we need these sort of like absolutes, and we need this, I can only I have only two options that I can choose on a form and it has to be one of these two, like there's no option in between or other
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I think, in a sense, it actually ties into what we're speaking about. So, you know, you're right, it's, in a way, it just really calls for balance. It's kind of like, if truly there was as much empathy when oppressors were doing what oppressors do. They will I would say these are the absolutes we're looking at, we are going to set XYZ in stone. But also, maybe we're not just doing it for selfish purposes. And we're doing it for progressive purposes. And so because of that, we take that half of that authority and add in empathy and think about the person who is going to be the end. The end software, as you know, for lack of a better way to put it. And so I think that sort of authority comes in equal parts, when you split one part away, it goes from authority to sort of control control in the sense that you're creating your own narrative without the other side of the picture. Tartarian is exactly so yeah, I think, yeah, that does not make sense.
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And that's quite a good place to end as well actually empathy. I mean, that to me, is the heart of it, isn't it to be able to empathise and be compassionate and to not see myself as better than everyone else, you know, that's the thing that's probably, you know, been at the heart of many oppression, many types of oppression, right, and not having empathy, not not seeing the collective and seeing, you know, I my needs are greater than yours. And so I'm going to do what I need to get what I want. For also
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just saying, not feeling like, I know what's good for you, and I'm gonna exact on it, you know, that it's also such a huge part of it. A lot of the problems we've faced in the past is really just rooted in the fact that people impose their will on other people,
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if feels to me, like, it's, you know, of course, what we're talking about, partly is also what certain people think of as progress, like, you know, my progress, my profit, my agenda, you know, I need to get, I need to make that happen, regardless of what it does to you. And, you know, so in a sense, to have empathy and to believe that empathy for other people, or other people's other people's, you know, human rights perhaps, are equally important, and they're more important than my profit. That's quite a difficult thing for the world to get to.
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But that's where, you know, I don't know how we'll survive really, in a way without without that. Okay,
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that's the question of capitalism isn't?
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Exactly, but you know, we can't look at colonialism, right, without, without looking at capitalism, because they are, you know, in a way the colonial projects is a capitalist project, isn't it? It serves a project of expansion and industry,
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I think to lead into what we might speak about next, it's a great idea to answer the question you asked previously, about, yeah.
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What is activism to me, I think, you know, to me, activism is my day to day choices in a way, you know, how do I treat people when I when I meet them? How do I see people before I even treat them in any way do I do I see a person and say, I want to get to know this person, whatever they look like? Or do I think actually, I don't want to get to know some people. And I don't want to get to know other people, which is what we actually do, right? We do this in social life every single day.
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So I suppose the daily choices that I make, do I treat people with empathy, and kindness? Or do I treat people as if they are a means to an end? So those choices, but then now, all our other choices are implicated? Do I leave the exhaust fan on too long? Or do I make a more green choice? Do I take a flight to go when I want to go to Berlin? Or can I be can I be less convenient for me and take a train that takes ages but it's more green? You know, I think is activism is in the daily choices rather than going to a protest.
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To me, it's about the choices we make every day. And to me also social, social justice has to colour every single choice we make rather than Oh, I'll do it when it's convenient. And I won't do it when when it's not convenient. So yeah, I suppose and I'm always failing, because obviously, not all my choices are socially just or climate, you know, climate wise screen.
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So in a sense, I'm always failing, but I suppose the intention to keep on trying or the other lens through which I'm looking at things maybe does matter, perhaps.
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I think that you're you're right, actually, it's it's a lot of dealing with the very fundamental and basic, basic things. Just because I think we take them for granted so much, you know how long we left a tab on or how we how we treated someone without realising that we are not being so great. It's it's it it's reminding ourselves to do the little things, right. But also, I think, and I say this, specifically with regard to creative people in general, I think we have a responsibility.
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And that's where that for me activism comes in, we have a responsibility to use the knowledge, we have our research skills, and also whatever talent we have available to fix narratives. And I say fix, because then that, to me is a mixture of sort of like correction and disrupting, right, we have the power, we have so much power, to change how media moves, we have so much power to read document history in a way that we think is much better represented, represented.
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An example is I've been working on a documentary for a while now on an art form in Ghana, that I think hasn't been properly covered. And knowing how poorly especially people of African origins have documented history, and the fact that some other people have also made it an objective to destroy as much of that history as possible, we are, we are charged with the responsibility to document as much in our possession before we actually lose them. And that, in my opinion, at least from my perspective, as an artist, is the largest thing you can do to try and impact especially if you're if you're a person of you know, minority you are, it's a duty to me that I see it that you're charged with the duty to change as much of the narrative as you can with your talents, skills, and knowledge.
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I think, Well, I agree with both of you. I think it's definitely like an individual thing activism is individual, it's it it's like a means of life or a lifestyle as much as it is as a as it as a choice. So like, I activism is me sort of insulating myself and making myself comfortable with the people who are around me or my environment and it's also pushing myself outside of that environment to into the wider world. And I think when we're talking if we're if we're talking about sort of like a hierarchy of of actions, where like these implicit biases and all of these like everyday microaggressions are the base of it when it builds up to say, like, you know, colonialism and genocide and huge huge things like that, that in any pyramid, your district, you're sort of deconstructing from the bottom to for it for it to collapse, and that is very much an individual like impetus.
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Just great.
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This podcast is brought to you by the teaching and learning exchange at University of the Arts, London. For more information search for ual teaching and learning exchange.
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Welcome to interrogating spaces. A podcast that examines ideas around inclusivity and attainment in higher education. We speak with staff, students and practitioners to explore questions around democratic and decolonize teaching practices.
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In this episode of interrogating spaces, Dr are meeting each other and speaks with international students and alumni about their students experience as well as discussions on decolonial practice and how this relates to research.
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Hi, I'm Amita Andy Chapman, I work at the University of the Arts London, in the academic enhancement team, specifically at LCC London College of Communication as attainment and progression project manager. One of the things that I do is working with courses, staff and students to look at how we can embed more decolonial approaches more social justice and climate justice, perhaps sometimes as well into the curriculum and learning experience. As part of these roles, recently, I delivered some workshops for graphic media and design, and had this wonderful conversation with a few people who are here in the US some of whom are in the studio today. What we're going to try and do is for the three of us to talk about, you know what our approach is, when we think about decolonization, how does that link with our artistic practice, perhaps, or our research or the work that we do at UL, and then we can, we can see kind of where the conversation leads us. I'm also I'm a dance studies researcher and practitioner and a creative writer. So I might draw on those experiences when I'm talking as well.
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My name is Disha Deshpande, I'm an admin Course Support Assistant for the overarching graphic design, communication and design courses at London College of Communication. I graduated with a degree in culture criticism and curation. So that's kind of how my decolonization practice comes out is through my critical writing, sort of exhibition design and the the research that's involved in those
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I'm Pharez(Emmanuel Aouad) , I'm a final
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So it'd be really good for each of us, processes.
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year student at the London College of Communication, studying Graphic and Media Design. Prior to this, I've perhaps I thought to reflect on first, you know, what it's like practised as a photographer and creative executive for probably close to a decade now. I've been living in the UK for the last almost six years now, prior to that I grew up in Ghana. And so a lot of my experiences and my takes on pretty much everything to do the thing we do at UAL or LCC. And just to situate things we will speak about is drawing from the experiences that I've had, which is quite, you know, diverse and wide.
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a little bit more in in our work. So when I do my work, I'm cross colleges, but I'm also specifically at LTC at times.
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But then the other strand of my work is creative writing, which I bring into my workshops at LCC annuelle. But I predominantly do the writing sort of when I'm in not in my not with my UL hat on.
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And so my experience, I guess, I love working at UL, and the different reasons for this, but primarily, one of the things I find here, which I really, really enjoy and admire is how many people are very reflective about their work. You know, I really enjoy that. So there's less of a there is the there is the you know, the thing that's probably there in all workplaces, which is let's get on with it and do the work. But there's also a sense that people have time to reflect on the need and want desire to, to reflect on why we're doing things in a particular way. And is there space to do things differently, which I think is perhaps, given that I've worked and lectured in other universities is somewhat unique, you know that that space for reflection. So I really admire that, that there is that there is that space for creativity and reflection and a sense that we're trying to do better Sometimes it's a bit like we're trying to do better all the time. But there is there is that space. So I admire that. I think there are challenges at LCC, you know, there are challenges that perhaps all lecturers and tutors will talk about core support will talk about which is there can be mixed levels of engagement and attendance with students. And that can feel challenging at times, you know how to help students who drift off a little bit or fall off the grid a little bit how to get them help them to come back, to engage more to, you know, to do really well in their work. So that's, that's a challenge that I find, you know, I want to use a decolonial approach to help with that by collaborating with students more by making sure that students feel more represented, you know, in the curriculum and the learning experience in the examples we use in the classroom or the studio, even in the industry.
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But that level of representation is something that we are nowhere near, you know, so there is a diversity in students, but that diversity isn't always reflected perhaps in the staff or the leadership teams isn't always reflected in the industries that we work in. So the and that diversity is all kinds of diversity. It's not only race and ethnicity is sexuality is gender, its age, its class, its cultural background, it's how you see yourself all that needs to be represented more. And I think that challenge sometimes reflects itself, perhaps in students not quite feeling like they belong, and then falling off the grid and the radar. So that's my experience of working here that I that I really admire the space and love it. But also find that, you know, changes that I want to see happen in the world is reflected in micro format UL all the time. So I'm challenged with the need for social change and climate change. I'm chat I'm forced to see that as I work at UL, which can be a plus and a minus at times.
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I think specifically from my experience, I had two like very different experiences studying at UAL and then working at UAL as I am right now. So I studied at CSM, but then I'm working at LCC and even from looking looking outside into LCC, it always seemed like the more diverse campus and CSM I could, I felt very ostracised but also there was the element of being an international student that at that time, when I when I entered CSM. Overall I felt like the when you were talking about sort of the change that you want to see or the the reflectiveness of people, I feel like UAL is a space where I feel comfortable knowing or like, I know that there is like people are going to take accountability, like in other workspaces, you wouldn't, if you don't think people are going to take responsibility or take accountability or like own up to what they've done or try and reflect and change, then you're not going to bring it up and I think that you will does a good at least image wise has a has a good reputation for accountability, which I am now seeing more as I work here, rather than when I was studying law because I felt so like out of out of place and like a fish out of water. When I was studying, they're just like completely, you know, like untethered kind of I've got a bit of back and forth between India and the UK. So like my primary my primary school education was here. But then a lot of my like thought forming yours and like the the years that I formed my personality and my opinions and stuff was in India so like a lot of the things that I think of in my opinions are my perspective comes from that approach. But then at the same time, it's still in it's still informed by my my time in the UK prior. So when I came to the UK, to London as an international student, I thought that I had a footing I thought that I like kind of knew what was going on. But then coming into uni, and especially the course that I was on culture and criticism seemed to be very imbalanced, like very imbalanced. i Yeah. My major takeaway was that the only way to get into that sort of industry of what I was doing was to already have connections in that industry, where it felt very like nepotistic that the people who were doing well and the people who were having the career that I at that time wanted Whether people who's who, you know, had the benefit of being in that world already, and there seemed to be no opening whatsoever, and you didn't give me that opening, either. So that was my experience. But working at LCC has been a lot, especially being involved in the sort of initiatives. It kind of shifts my perspective and it makes me think that that perhaps maybe I wasn't seeking out the opportunities as much as I should have been or could have been. It's interesting,
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isn't it, because what you're reflecting on there, there's a couple of things that I think probably everyone's experience when you work when you when you're in London, one that it is about who you know, quite often it can seem like that. So you have to form those contacts and those networks before you can really find a place for yourself, which I totally agree with. And it's so daunting to have to do. But the other thing you're talking about is perhaps a little feeling of sort of being an imposter in a way in the in the world that you wanted to be in and yet couldn't quite see your way getting into perhaps, I mean, in terms of inclusion and belonging at CSM. How did you feel about that? Like, did you feel like there was a place for you at the university, or at the time did it not seem like that?
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I feel like especially coming from, I'm not sure if this is entirely unique to me, I think it's generally like an international student thing. You have the international students who are kind of it, who are who are kind of able to be here and live here. Because they have the the support and the and the funds required to be here. And then you have the international students who are kind of working full time jobs while they're at uni, who aren't able to then participate in the societies who are then further alienated because they're international, they don't have friends already, they don't have time to make friends. So it just in that way, it kind of an all of the events seem to be events that people were already in the know about, or they already had opinions or things to discuss. Whereas I was going there trying to like trying to this being my first introduction to the things to the to this concept, or to this artists with this exhibition.
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And I think the art world in general, is is difficult to access, but then coming from that extra hurdle of like, international and not knowing that art speak and not knowing who these people are in this in this in this setting where they are, they are the contemporary artists.
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I have a question just based out of curiosity, having been a student in UAL, and having been, you know, part of staff. As far as working culture and studying culture goals, what would you say? The differences are and the overlaps? And what do you think, requires a lot of attention?
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Because you did make a point.
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You know, it's a struggle that I dealt with in the beginning, if you if you're joining, and say, for example, you're working full time, and studying full time as well, that leaves you little to no social life at all. And I think this is something that should almost have been accounted for a very long time ago. Because, you know, first of all, it's an art college, right?
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So design thinking is meant to be a part of who we are. So that means we should have thought on a stretch to cover as much as possible. So everybody doesn't, you know, everybody feels welcome and not necessarily alienated regardless of their circumstances.
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Yeah, I think part of that is like it's not necessarily the university's fault, the university as as like a, as a curriculum, or like as, as sort of this platform for all of these social events and stuff is not it's, it's, it's not like the university isn't lacking in these opportunities. It's it's the fundamental structure of it, isn't it that like, international students are paying so much and then coming in and then not able to keep up
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There is something about the system that isn't quite facilitating a compassionate perhaps way of being for students or you know, some some something about it fields not compassionate not not something that invites you in.
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There's something a bit forbidding perhaps about the you know, the world it creates
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Yeah and that and that's, that's what I'm just like struggling to put my finger on. It's like what is it exactly that that was stopping me from, from seeing these things or like going into these things I'm like, in myself, I put it on myself quite a lot of the time where I'm like, Oh, you weren't, you were just nervous, you're anxious, you didn't want to You were scared to socialise, you were scared that you would say something stupid, and then people would laugh at you because you didn't know this artist or whatever. But at the same time, I don't think any of my any of the of my close friends who were all international students as well during that time. Also, like who were very extroverted and everything they didn't, they didn't go to these events, either they didn't know what was happening or like, didn't feel comfortable in those spaces either. So what that I feel like all of all of the all of the social events put so much emphasis in the pamphlets and in the in the sort of coffee that that this is an inclusive space, like everyone is welcome. But at the same time, what is stopping us? What is it? Because is it?
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Is it? Is it all of us? Or is it something to do with AI? Yeah, just but
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even even even if it is anxiety, say even if it were, it's still down to the institution to some extent to facilitate your being able to kind of cope with that anxiety and then still be able to do the things you want to do. Right? So it's still, in a sense, the system is implicated in that, even if, even if you're acknowledging that it was anxiety, we can't just teach students who don't feel anxious, because that will leave out most most people, right. So there is something that obviously is there for us to learn. As, as as as a as an institution. As far as what about you like, what's your experience of ual? Do you Do you like it? Do you hate it?
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Do I have a very, very neutral stance, as far as UAL comes, I think it's a brilliant institution. It's it while I was working on my dissertation, it was mostly focused around you know, symbols, semiotics, and, in particular, I chose to use the Ghana coat of arms as case study. Now, I found out that the designer of the Ghana Coat of Arms was actually a past student of LCC. I thought that was very interesting. Now being someone who I think this was in the 50s.
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And so you know, then London College of printing, right? You would be surprised to know that I could not find a single piece of information regarding his time here, his work that he's done here, that brought up a whole lot of red flags for me.
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And I quickly also found out that a lot of the resources and this was right from year one, a lot of the resources that are made, and this is probably not in any fault of the school's current administration. I think, like she said, these are systems that have been put in place for very long time. And so knowingly or unknowingly, we are blocked off from a certain kind of knowledge, that would empower as much diversity as possible, right? So initially, when I first joined those, that excitement, but you know that when the reality sets in, and you realise that it's not all as straight as it seems, that is where that sort of anxiety comes in, because you're not even sure how to navigate your own self in the first place. And so when I first joined, it was very, because I was also working full time and studying full time. It was a very confusing time. It was okay, for the most part, but I remember two very interesting people dropping off the course.
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And I thought the course was fine. It was structured, okay. I know the tutors put in as much effort as they can to deliver, you know, regardless of situations, because I think when I joined almost a year later, COVID said, and then there's so much disruption, right? So I've had my back and forwards. I've actually had run ins with actual tutors like administrative stuff, just because some things didn't make sense to me. And I tried to speak out and in a sense, in a sense, I was almost kind of shut down. But also when I made a complaint about it, I also got as much support as I needed. So it's it's very, it's more like an oversight. I think, because we're spending so much time as an institution trying to do the right things. Some other things fall through the cracks and we don't necessarily realise that until the numbers start, you know, going up, and so more people start complaining about certain things that we don't necessarily realise. And that's okay. Actually, I think, cause some problems take time to actually surface for everybody to realise its, you know, seriousness. So for me, it's been very neutral. Sometimes it's been, you know, up there, and sometimes it's not been so great, but I think UAL as an institute, whatever it sets out to do, as far as educating people in the art does quite a good job at that. I'm, I'm, I'm witness to that, based on my experiences before I joined the college and the university as a whole. So yeah, it's Yeah.
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I mean, I was gonna say that it's funny, obviously, we're only just talking about our experience of being at UAL, but already, the you know, the sort of the decolonial lens is coming into what each of us is saying. So what Disha said about being a international student, and about belonging, not belonging, you know, being an imposter in the art world, all of this is very much to me, question of, you know, representation, diversity, how we are, you know, how many of us feel we can have a voice, we can have a place, all of that, to me is very much embedded in decolonial approach, and what Flores is saying, to, you know, just what you said about the designer of the coat of arms, not having a name anymore, most, you know, and and so what does that say about who, again, who's seen and who's not seen in the history of LCC, like, you know, what do we see as the ideal student of LCC and who gets who gets a place in history and who doesn't? So that seems very appropriate. I mean, to me, I suppose, you know, like, for as an Disha, I have also lived in other places like the United States and India. And so that, you know, I do, again, that international, I do bring that sort of international sensibility with me, but where I see, in fact, the sort of the heart these questions of, you know, representation and diversity play out in my life the most is actually perhaps, when I work as a writer I work at so I'm a fiction writer under a slightly different name. And in publishing, there's a great call for diversity, quote, unquote, and inclusion. But it can very often feel a bit tick box to a lot of people. Because what happens is, sometimes when agents and editors have their lists of authors, and if they already feel like they have enough of a diverse representation, they've ticked the box, that it goes as far as that. Sometimes also, it goes as far as having diverse authors, but not necessarily being able to play with what they get to write. So there has been in fiction, for example, there has been this thing where so non white authors can do literary fiction, but not necessarily popular genre, humorous fiction.
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So there are doors that are, you know, still have to be knocked on and still have to be broken, I think undisrupted. So yeah, I suppose that's where I see it play out most often. I what I do like about UL is that there are there is the possibility of talking about race and talking about all of the other things that we were, we were saying make up diversity, and I think that to me, is quite important.
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Yeah, because I mean, media and popular culture representations of South Asian femininity drive me nuts. And, you know, so a part of my work, both in writing and perhaps in dance studies, to some extent, was always to play with those elements, you know, when you represent South Asian femininity, and sexuality, uh, you know, why are there such stereotypical very stifling versions? And so part of what, where I keep on trying to push against representations of, you know, of South Asian women is that is in those kinds of areas.
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And, you know, that those remains still really important to me. So can we then each of us reflect a little bit also on our approach? When we talk about decolonization? What is it to us, it doesn't play a part in the work that we do, or the way we see ourselves? You know, because just linking back to what I just said, to me, in my own personal life, if I look at the decolonial approach, it's, it's often pushing against, you know, again, notions and representations of South Asian femininity, but those notions often come from other Indian people. This is the thing so, you know, even though it's a decolonial approach, and it should be, you know, often in activism That is about, you know, pushing against sort of a colonial mantle to me, South Asian see South Asian femininity in a very problematic way. And that does have a colonial history because, you know, we're talking about colonialism in India happening during Victorian times. And so Victorian morality certainly affected how Indian women were then seen, you know, this idea of Indian women as being able to, you know, work and voting and stuff wasn't ever a major problem in India, for women. So that wasn't the thing, but the sexuality was very, you know, stifled and confined under a very heteronormative system.
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You know, so I think part of, you know, a part of what my issue is, always is pushing against how South Asian women are, you know, even now, when you look at media representations of South Asian, British women, British, South Asian women, media representations, they're doctors, they're there. They're police, women and lawyers. And that's it, you know, you don't see artists, you don't see women who have a sexual life of any kind, you don't see personal lives depicted, they're always sort of a bit stifled in the, in whatever personal life they have. And so to me, you know, those aren't just the way British media sees South Asian women, it's often also how South Asians control South Asian women as well. So you know, we are looking at a complex kind of matrix of nationalism, diaspora and colonialism, which isn't very simple to just kind of disrupt and change. But yeah, I wondered what you two you know, how you two felt, your I don't know what your connection is, with decolonial work or how you see it play out in your life.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:28:18.980
I think just going on from what you were thinking about, I think, my my viewpoint is that like, keeping the audience in mind is kind of like a decolonial approach, because because all of the media and all of the art that we see the sort of the creator the individual is put on like the on the pedestal and like the individual is the is the person who is sort of this mastermind genius who creates the work, rather than the work being created for an audience. So like, in terms of representation, like we see these represented these like perpetuated stereotypes. And we're like, I already know this, like, I already know, this, this version of this person, because we've been seeing it for so long. Like, I want to see, like I am, I am a brown woman, I want to see someone who's like me, or I want to see a different something different, like this should, this should, this character should speak to me, like me knowing all of this history, all of this, like cultural, like context of this character already, just from them being a brown person. Like, I feel like that's, that's the, the, you know, the route where it's like, you're speaking up to an audience in a way you're not, you're not like reverting back down to stereotypes to just make it relatable in that sense.
00:28:19.670 --> 00:28:38.660
Yeah, and stereotypes are obviously very, very problematic. But it's also this, this feeling of, you know, people already know, thinking they know you just because of what you what they think your cultural background or affiliation is. And assuming, because sort of stereotypical things about you, that's always tricky, isn't it?
00:28:39.200 --> 00:30:24.589
The way I see it is very much in connection with the conversation we had the other day, which is kind of always correcting the baseline, the blueprint or the foundation, and so on. It's a matter of basic decency, you know, there's a reason people have names, right? Because in order to identify someone, they need to have a name as a very base on a basic level, right? If someone is being identified in a way that they don't feel like they should be identified in, especially if factually and dating historically, it's there's a narrative that has been distorted over time, to the extent that we're seeing ramifications in the modern day, right, just based on like you said, stereotypes and you know, these very little things that we take for granted on a day to day basis. I think that we're meant so where we decolonize is, fix it from the bottom right. We document things we want to document right. And so if you want to document the things you want to document this, document it right and address people right And so, as creators, and as artists, and you know, people who aim to find as much equality, I think that decolonizing starts with addressing the base, we need to prioritise accurately addressing people and things. And this is where disruption comes in.
00:30:21.589 --> 00:30:38.000
Because then if we do that, it gives leeway for growth and progress, because then now we can disrupt, right? So that's what in a nutshell, that's what I'm thinking, as far as you know, decolonization got
00:30:38.420 --> 00:31:03.740
brilliant, this question of, you know, when we do decolonial work, are we trying to correct wrongs from history? Or are we trying to disrupt the status quo, and perhaps they're the same thing in the end or in outcome, but the approach is slightly different, or the understanding is slightly different. So for us, I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, who's allowed agency, right, like, who's allowed to represent themselves?
00:30:59.569 --> 00:31:14.180
Versus who's then allowed to not not have that representation? So So am I allowed to be my version of female or whatever? I have heard South Asian or whatever?
00:31:14.329 --> 00:31:19.519
Or am I just the version that someone else says, you know, this is what what, what typically meant to be?
00:31:19.579 --> 00:31:33.680
I have a question, though, what constitutes authority for who gets to tell the story? To not just who gets to tell it? But what what war will make up the authority for them to? Yeah,
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:41.869
and that's hugely kind of implicated in colonialism as well, right?
00:31:38.869 --> 00:32:46.279
Like, who gets to say, Who has the authority, like in its layers of power? Right? And I think that's, that's it, isn't it? That's, that's the heart of the question. And, you know, I suppose, because I remember when we first came up with this question of, is it are we trying to correct or disrupt? You know, the reason that I slightly was nervous around the word correction was because, again, going back to what I said before, that, very often, South Asian women or Indian women have been told what to be and who they can be by other Indian people, you know, and that is meant to be the, quote, unquote, correct way, which I've always found, you know, that's dangerous, that you that that, that people who tell you what your went, what you're meant to be like, are the people that supposedly have authority, because they were also defeated alone, you know, the colonial side of things in India. So it's like, you know, who has the authority to tell people what they can be is a really, really fundamental question. I think,
00:32:46.460 --> 00:34:02.150
going back to the storytelling point that you had, and like, the storytelling traditions of different of different peoples in different cultures. If you think of a story, it's like, it's, it's not exactly linear, it ebbs and flows, it changes, it takes turns and everything. And I think that sort of the, what I see with disruption versus versus correction is that it's a continuation and that like, rather than, like, a factual truth, again, and that being like a definite thing, the sort of like, redressal, and like, looking at the context, the historical context, and all of this confluence of different cultures and influences, and, like, people and events that happened to then come to the point where we're like, well, we can look at something and then be like, oh, all of these things have happened. Therefore, this is why we have to, to address it in in this certain way. And in a similar way, where we get where we're talking about, like pre colonial, as being as being some form of decolonization where it's where it's not it, because reversion is not is not going to be progression is the complete opposite.
00:34:02.150 --> 00:34:04.730
Yeah, no, I think that that's it, isn't it?
00:34:04.730 --> 00:34:12.590
It's correction sometimes takes different forms. I think that's what it is, depends on who wants to correct and in what way,
00:34:13.219 --> 00:34:19.250
again, that doesn't really answer who has the authority or who has this.
00:34:15.110 --> 00:34:41.929
It's that thing of like to know, you can never say, I objectively know 100% of this subject, because for that, you have to know 100% of 10 other subjects, in the same way that all of the systems are interconnected and all of these histories and different different timelines, a different eras different just.
00:34:35.329 --> 00:34:53.449
Yeah, that's, that's why I find, like definitive answers or like hard truths, the hard facts, a very difficult thing to conceptualise for myself when it comes to decolonization.
00:34:53.900 --> 00:35:18.860
Again, really important because what you're saying, partly is also that the colonial project has always valued certainty over over multiplicity, perhaps or fluidity hybridity, you know, as the colonial project prefers absolutes, doesn't it in a way a Me, me and you, us and them, you know, the self and the other or all of those sets
00:35:19.010 --> 00:35:21.230
the collective with the audience and stuff like that
00:35:21.230 --> 00:35:56.869
as well, exactly sort of labels that are neater, perhaps. And, you know, so the question of correctness or truth or fact then become slightly, you know, whose truth whose fact who's whose history whose story. And whereas, whereas if we then truly decolonize, we want multiplicity to be existing at the same time rather than either or right. So we want to be able to say, I'm only partially right, you know, and you're partially right, and someone else's partially right, and there are multiple partial truths. Yeah, which would be nice. I'd come.
00:35:57.949 --> 00:36:20.179
But I think I think the the real, I wouldn't say solution. But a large part of the solution would be to say, what I'm partly right and your party, right? Let's find a way to accurately get this down.
00:36:15.739 --> 00:36:32.150
Because then in the future, someone else is going to be partly right. And someone else is going to be partly right, right. So you know, and this is where the authority comes in.
00:36:26.599 --> 00:37:21.590
And I think it's not in an equal measure. It's if if, if we go back to pre colonial, it's not necessarily regression, it's more kind of education, in a sense, because if you pay attention to if you draw attention to it, you're, you're gonna learn a little bit much more from it than if you use a lens of your current environment. Right. So I think that authority generally comes from a mixture of revisiting history. And, you know, again, like you said, correcting is very difficult, because it's not set in stone, you can't necessarily go back and think everything will be the way it used to be. Because then again, it becomes progression, right?
00:37:15.139 --> 00:38:22.010
So it's an equal parts, not an equal parts, trying to always add a certain level of authority where that authority comes from historical accuracy, a deep cultural knowledge based on the subject, and also just general empathy. And this could all be summed up in the form of an old lady sitting somewhere in Kenya, you know, so I think that authority, we do our bit to try and bridge the gap. But the missing piece is always going back to the source and finding that sort of authenticity to kind of complete the whole, the whole story, you know, and that's what I think as far as authority goes, I think we must always do our bit. But it's important to find an authentic source to kind of plug in that missing piece,
00:38:22.440 --> 00:39:35.550
I think, people are we in this discussion of decolonization have a different idea of authority than what it is in reality, because we see authority as as like heritage, and experiential, and all have this, like it's an abstract do, you don't have a degree to have authority, but then in the system that we're in it, you have a like, that's how you gain authority, there is a hierarchy, you go through these certain hurdles and stuff. And that's how you become reputable. I think coming from from the admin perspective, especially in the university, and like bring tying it back to what initially we had was that there's this individuals want to have change, and individuals are open to this flexible idea of history and like this fluidity and it being a conversation and it being constantly changing. But then the way that the university is set up, we need these sort of like absolutes, and we need this, I can only I have only two options that I can choose on a form and it has to be one of these two, like there's no option in between or other
00:39:35.579 --> 00:40:58.230
I think, in a sense, it actually ties into what we're speaking about. So, you know, you're right, it's, in a way, it just really calls for balance. It's kind of like, if truly there was as much empathy when oppressors were doing what oppressors do. They will I would say these are the absolutes we're looking at, we are going to set XYZ in stone. But also, maybe we're not just doing it for selfish purposes. And we're doing it for progressive purposes. And so because of that, we take that half of that authority and add in empathy and think about the person who is going to be the end. The end software, as you know, for lack of a better way to put it. And so I think that sort of authority comes in equal parts, when you split one part away, it goes from authority to sort of control control in the sense that you're creating your own narrative without the other side of the picture. Tartarian is exactly so yeah, I think, yeah, that does not make sense.
00:40:58.500 --> 00:41:29.250
And that's quite a good place to end as well actually empathy. I mean, that to me, is the heart of it, isn't it to be able to empathise and be compassionate and to not see myself as better than everyone else, you know, that's the thing that's probably, you know, been at the heart of many oppression, many types of oppression, right, and not having empathy, not not seeing the collective and seeing, you know, I my needs are greater than yours. And so I'm going to do what I need to get what I want. For also
00:41:29.250 --> 00:41:48.360
just saying, not feeling like, I know what's good for you, and I'm gonna exact on it, you know, that it's also such a huge part of it. A lot of the problems we've faced in the past is really just rooted in the fact that people impose their will on other people,
00:41:48.389 --> 00:42:27.690
if feels to me, like, it's, you know, of course, what we're talking about, partly is also what certain people think of as progress, like, you know, my progress, my profit, my agenda, you know, I need to get, I need to make that happen, regardless of what it does to you. And, you know, so in a sense, to have empathy and to believe that empathy for other people, or other people's other people's, you know, human rights perhaps, are equally important, and they're more important than my profit. That's quite a difficult thing for the world to get to.
00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:32.610
But that's where, you know, I don't know how we'll survive really, in a way without without that. Okay,
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:34.440
that's the question of capitalism isn't?
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:48.719
Exactly, but you know, we can't look at colonialism, right, without, without looking at capitalism, because they are, you know, in a way the colonial projects is a capitalist project, isn't it? It serves a project of expansion and industry,
00:42:49.949 --> 00:42:58.170
I think to lead into what we might speak about next, it's a great idea to answer the question you asked previously, about, yeah.
00:42:58.860 --> 00:43:29.670
What is activism to me, I think, you know, to me, activism is my day to day choices in a way, you know, how do I treat people when I when I meet them? How do I see people before I even treat them in any way do I do I see a person and say, I want to get to know this person, whatever they look like? Or do I think actually, I don't want to get to know some people. And I don't want to get to know other people, which is what we actually do, right? We do this in social life every single day.
00:43:25.440 --> 00:44:02.280
So I suppose the daily choices that I make, do I treat people with empathy, and kindness? Or do I treat people as if they are a means to an end? So those choices, but then now, all our other choices are implicated? Do I leave the exhaust fan on too long? Or do I make a more green choice? Do I take a flight to go when I want to go to Berlin? Or can I be can I be less convenient for me and take a train that takes ages but it's more green? You know, I think is activism is in the daily choices rather than going to a protest.
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:24.809
To me, it's about the choices we make every day. And to me also social, social justice has to colour every single choice we make rather than Oh, I'll do it when it's convenient. And I won't do it when when it's not convenient. So yeah, I suppose and I'm always failing, because obviously, not all my choices are socially just or climate, you know, climate wise screen.
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:34.380
So in a sense, I'm always failing, but I suppose the intention to keep on trying or the other lens through which I'm looking at things maybe does matter, perhaps.
00:44:35.820 --> 00:45:16.139
I think that you're you're right, actually, it's it's a lot of dealing with the very fundamental and basic, basic things. Just because I think we take them for granted so much, you know how long we left a tab on or how we how we treated someone without realising that we are not being so great. It's it's it it's reminding ourselves to do the little things, right. But also, I think, and I say this, specifically with regard to creative people in general, I think we have a responsibility.
00:45:12.510 --> 00:45:52.469
And that's where that for me activism comes in, we have a responsibility to use the knowledge, we have our research skills, and also whatever talent we have available to fix narratives. And I say fix, because then that, to me is a mixture of sort of like correction and disrupting, right, we have the power, we have so much power, to change how media moves, we have so much power to read document history in a way that we think is much better represented, represented.
00:45:45.570 --> 00:46:52.260
An example is I've been working on a documentary for a while now on an art form in Ghana, that I think hasn't been properly covered. And knowing how poorly especially people of African origins have documented history, and the fact that some other people have also made it an objective to destroy as much of that history as possible, we are, we are charged with the responsibility to document as much in our possession before we actually lose them. And that, in my opinion, at least from my perspective, as an artist, is the largest thing you can do to try and impact especially if you're if you're a person of you know, minority you are, it's a duty to me that I see it that you're charged with the duty to change as much of the narrative as you can with your talents, skills, and knowledge.
00:46:52.710 --> 00:48:02.699
I think, Well, I agree with both of you. I think it's definitely like an individual thing activism is individual, it's it it's like a means of life or a lifestyle as much as it is as a as it as a choice. So like, I activism is me sort of insulating myself and making myself comfortable with the people who are around me or my environment and it's also pushing myself outside of that environment to into the wider world. And I think when we're talking if we're if we're talking about sort of like a hierarchy of of actions, where like these implicit biases and all of these like everyday microaggressions are the base of it when it builds up to say, like, you know, colonialism and genocide and huge huge things like that, that in any pyramid, your district, you're sort of deconstructing from the bottom to for it for it to collapse, and that is very much an individual like impetus.
00:48:03.570 --> 00:48:04.289
Just great.
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