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Welcome back to Inside Rehabilitation Counseling.
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I'm CRCC Director of Communications and Marketing, Taylor Bauer.
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I'm excited to bring you another conversation exploring the art and science of rehabilitation counseling.
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Across over 30 work settings, there's so much you can do professionally as a CRC.
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Now, in my five years of hosting this podcast, I've seen a growing interest from certified rehabilitation counselors in court testimony and starting a new endeavor in this space.
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So is expert testimony right for you?
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We can't necessarily answer that for each individual listener, but we can bring on an expert who is successful in this work setting to share their knowledge and hopefully help you decide if this is the direction you want to head in.
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Our guest today is Dr.
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Daniel Wolstein, CEO and president of Kincaid Wolstein, a CRCC premiere partner.
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Dr.
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Wolstein has an extensive amount of knowledge about court proceedings, and in this episode, you'll hear him detail his path and how mentorship and certain qualities can make this a setting for success for CRCs.
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Dr.
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Wolstein, thank you so much for joining me here on Inside Rehabilitation Counseling.
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I'm really excited because you and your organization are our latest premier partner here at CRCC.
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So we're going to get to work a lot together on some exciting initiatives, kind of starting with this podcast.
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So I'm really grateful for your time today.
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Oh, thank you for having me.
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And we're very excited about our partnership.
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And we'll do great things together.
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Oh, I I know it.
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Even just, you know, the initial conversations have been really positive.
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And I think there's a lot of potential in the specific work setting that you and your organization operate in.
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And I guess to be fair, you operate in a few different work settings within vocational rehabilitation and evaluation.
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So we'll definitely dive into a lot of that on this episode.
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Um, but I always love starting with our guests kind of um at the beginning of their professional journey.
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So can you tell me a little bit about where you first became aware of rehabilitation counseling as a profession and what drew you to this line of work?
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My late mentor, Dr.
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Charles Kincaid, had gotten me into the field.
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He was involved in forensic settings at the time that he introduced me to the field, but he also still gave me an overview of the clinical aspects of rehabilitation counseling.
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Helping others is something that's been important to me.
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The actual professional work of helping others was interesting to me.
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Um, it's not the direction that I went in, but um I've always felt that there's some resonance with the field of rehabilitation counseling and the personality type.
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Um, so he introduced me, he kind of gave me his progression of his career uh and how it led him to forensics.
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Um, but the the personality type of helping others is certainly one that resonated with me.
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Yeah, I feel like that's a throw line for a lot of people who enter this field is like the common denominator, no matter what you thought you were going to do professionally or what your goal was, you know, in your career, is that you want to make an impact on others.
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And I feel like that's a that's a very easy thing to do when you're in this line of work.
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Certainly.
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Yeah, the social services field, I think it definitely pulls a certain personality type that gets drawn to it.
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Um, those that are very caring, um, those that do want to help others, it's it's nice to be in a field where it's interwoven, uh rooted in caring individuals.
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Yeah, there's no shortage of people who wanna who want to do good in this world, in this profession.
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So we're grateful for all of you, you know, choosing to go this route.
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Uh, you are the CEO and president of Kingcaid Wolstein Vocational and Rehabilitation Services.
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Um, and your firm specializes in providing expert forensic vocational evaluations, uh, plans, analyses, and testimony for attorneys.
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Um, and you know, that's just a little bit of what you all do.
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I, you know, your list of services on your website across vocational and rehabilitation services is, you know, pretty vast.
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Tell me a little bit about how your team operates and and where you provide these services.
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Perhaps my contribution to the CRCC can be to shed light on the forensic side because that's one of my main areas of practice.
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Uh, forensic services means I used to think of it more as investigative, but forensic means related to the court systems and still putting on your kind of investigative hat, or it's an investigative role.
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But uh these evaluations are tied to litigation proceedings, meaning that there's a court case uh related to the evaluation.
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If you're um a solo practitioner, then you may be accounting for everything, but as you get larger, there really becomes two departments at the very least.
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You have your administrative side and then you have the expert side, and they need to grow in parallel with one another as well.
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The admin side in my firm, I call them the expert liaisons.
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They're the intermediary between the expert and the attorneys.
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So they organize case materials.
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Sometimes I call those, and other people call those the expert package.
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It's the set of materials that are related to the case that the attorney wants to be reviewed and basing the opinions of your evaluation on.
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So, like medical records, legal exhibits, like depositions, uh parallel to the expert liaisons and the admin side is your expert side.
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Um, at Kincaid Wallstein, we have about 10 experts and we work closely with the liaisons, but the expert work would be like um doing the interviews, testifying in court about your findings.
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Um one thing that's common to the clinical field as it is to the forensic field is the transferable skills analysis.
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One thing that we do at my company is uh we evaluate injuries.
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So there's really two time frames, and there's two concepts.
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The time frames are pre-injury and post-injury, so before and after being injured, and employability and earning capacity.
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So both time frames apply to both concepts.
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As experts, we are rendering our opinions within a reasonable degree of professional certainty, but we're working with our admin side to accomplish work and be productive.
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And uh the admin side will organize all of our materials, schedule interviews and evaluations, schedule courts.
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We'll go through the, you know, we'll do our expert evaluations and render our opinions within a reasonable degree of professional certainty.
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I love it.
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Yeah, and it's it's helpful to have those two kind of branches working in tandem because there is, I would imagine, not working in this line of work, uh, there is a lot of organization and you know, deadlines and precise, you know, uh record keeping, I guess, to be able to follow these proceedings.
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And and so much of that is added, I don't want to say burden, but I guess uh a better way to say it is like added work on top of actually just performing the evaluations and the analysis.
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So it's great to have kind of those two two branches of of what you all do working in tandem.
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And like you said, if if the uh expert testimony or um, you know, expert vocational evaluation side is growing, then the admin side grows too, because there's just more to navigate, more to keep track of, and more to continue to you know collect as you take on more and more cases.
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Right.
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And it's probably similar.
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Well, it is similar to the way it is in the clinical field too, like these state agencies like DVR in New Jersey, they have the admin side and then they they have the clinicians.
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So it's still bifurcated into those two uh categories of work or categories of organizing business.
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Well, and I think laying that out was really helpful, I'm sure, for our audience because expert testimony and consulting in general are some of the fastest growing sectors for CRCs looking uh in particular to start their own business.
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We have a lot of CRCs who maybe spend time working for a state agency or um a community organization, and then they kind of know, you know, I'm ready to look at what the options are if I were to start my own practice or my own business.
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So I'm curious from your perspective and expertise, what are some of the qualities you think make a CRC fit to work in this particular setting?
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It's two areas.
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There's qualities and there's qualifications.
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So your master's degree and your CRC credential, those are your qualifications and your background in working with people who have return to work issues or vocational counseling, those are your qualifications.
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Your qualities, being able to work well with people is probably going to be important.
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As with all groups of people, attorneys, you have a lot of different personalities and it can be very intense work.
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Many attorneys are such nice individuals, you know, big caring individuals, and they can be very easy to work with, and other attorneys can be very intense.
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So the qualities, being able to work well with others, that's a transferable skill that would uh go from clinical work to forensic work.
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But the qualifications, the experience that you have in vocational counseling and vocational evaluation, doing transferable skills analyses clinically also translates forensically too.
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So you can talk about your experience in working with individuals who are in need of return to work or need of assistance in their return to work process.
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So qualities versus qualifications, they're both important.
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Yeah, I think that's a great way to delineate that because there are a lot of people maybe who have worked in this field for a long time who, you know, they like the idea of branching out into expert testimony and things like that.
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But there is a particular um difference in just like you said, having to work with people of varying personalities and also just like a legal setting or a court setting is so different than, you know, working one-on-one with a client in in more of a clinical counseling setting.
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So it is, I think, really important um that you laid out sort of what those what those things are that would aid an individual in being fit for this.
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And it's not to say that maybe if, you know, it's not something you have a ton of experience with, there aren't ways to uh prepare yourself to maybe go into this field or this part of the field.
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And, you know, I think for a lot of people, especially if they've maybe only been in the field for a couple of years, they might not be quite ready to dive into expert testimony full time as their profession, but they might be wanting to position themselves toward that as a future goal.
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So I'm curious, you know, what are some of the areas of specialty or even as they're knocking out continuing education for their certification, what are some of those topics that they should be investing time in as they decide whether or not this is a good fit for themselves?
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There are other board organizations that can allow you to certify and become involved in forensics.
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Um, I would encourage everyone to that's interested in this field to look up some of the board organizations and certifying bodies.
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And you need a mentor.
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Um, mentoring is very important and um being uh being able to work closely with a professional or an expert that has a lot of testifying experience, and they uh they call them court appearances.
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So in this line of work, there's something called your you have to stay consistent with the code of federal regulations that's CFR, and they have certain documents.
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So the CFR 26, I believe it is, is your list of appearances.
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And so the longer your list of appearances, the more experience you have testifying.
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And so what I would say, individuals searching for mentors, they want to make sure that they're the expert that they learn from has a lot of experience testifying.
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And you can ask them if they're willing to share it, you can ask for their CFR 26.
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That's really interesting.
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And like obviously at the top, you said a huge part of your, you know, lineage of getting into the position you're in now was mentorship.
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And I think that makes such a big difference having someone to learn from, not only like the ins and outs of like the systems that you're in and you know, what's expected of you professionally, but even just getting to hear from someone with experience, you know, lessons they wish they had learned earlier in their career or things that are super helpful as you're getting started versus, you know, once you're a bit more established, things that kind of feel second nature.
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I feel like those are very invaluable bits of learning that, you know, we we always think of uh in certification at least.
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You know, we think of you need the master's degree and then you pass the CRC exam and then you do your continuing education.
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There's a very intangible um value to just mentorship and being able to learn from someone who's done this before you.
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So the most one of the most intense parts of our job is cross-exam, and it can be aggressive.
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A little bit of it wouldn't be the first time that I've seen screaming in the courtroom, but it can also be very exciting too.
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I I think we all picture for those of us who don't work in a court setting or or something like that, you know, our minds immediately go to TV or movies, you know.
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And you'll hear from a lot of people like, well, it's not always like that, but sometimes it is.
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So it's funny to hear you say that.
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It really can be.
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And and Dr.
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Wallstein, isn't it true that when you evaluated my client, X, Y, and you know, they're they're they're trying to find uh cross-exam can be very intense, it but exciting too.
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I can imagine.
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I would I would really feel, at least for myself, I feel like that first time that you know you were really kind of getting grilled a little bit, it would be a little bit of like a adrenaline rush, like, oh my gosh, what is happening right now?
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But uh, you know, I think it's a good thing.
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I mean, I I'm grateful that you called that out because, you know, for these settings where you're working with attorneys, CRCs and CVEs are are very much looked at experts in disability.
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And, you know, in a court setting, you're not going to just be accepted as an expert and there's no, you know, questioning or cross-examining, as you said, you know, testimony you're giving.
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So with those kind of intensive questionings or investigations into your analysis, what is preparing for that process look like?
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And and how does, you know, being a CRC or a C VE prepare you for this sort of interaction?
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Well, we have a lot of experience in working with people who are.
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So there's a once again, our our professional experience prepares us in forming our opinions, right?
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So you're when you're in court, you're there to express your opinions and on direct and and defend your opinions on cross-exam.
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It's our professional experience that really gears us up to testify.
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However, each and every court case, in order to prepare for the specifics, like there's general experience that prepares you, and then there's the specific court case.
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And the way that you prepare for the specific court case is by reviewing the material for the case, like the expert package and the facts of the case.
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Just knowing the background facts is critically important.
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Right.
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So age, education, employment history, what are the medical doctors saying?
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Knowing your methodology is important, and reviewing your methodology and seeing what assumptions you made prior to testifying in court, your conclusions.
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Uh, the most important thing is being able to articulate your conclusions to the triers of fact.
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In a bench trial, there's no jury, so you would just be articulating your opinions to the judge.
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And then in a jury trial, you know, you have somewhere between six and ten members of the jury.
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You need to be able to articulate your opinions clearly and then defend them clearly as well.
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I I could see that being a place where mentorship also comes into um, you know, deep value because you you as a CRC, you know, you you know all the training and education you've had, and you know that you know how to do your job, right?
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But then kind of being put in a place where you have to really hold your own and justify, you know, your expertise, I think it can be very intimidating.
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And so it's it's probably really helpful to talk to people who've been in that role who can kind of almost talk you through like how to not feel, I don't know, overwhelmed by having someone sit there and be like, Do you like how do you how do you know this?
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Was this done correctly?
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Are these your um opinions?
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And so I could just imagine that that's a a whirlwind of of an experience.
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The first time you go through a cross-exam, it's like you're in a blender and everything is you're in the center of a blender the eye of the storm, everything's just spinning around you.
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You get better as you gain more experience.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I heard one other person who who's in this line of work say that after their first one, they kind of were done and they blinked and they were like, I don't know if I really remember what just happened.
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You know, it's almost out of body a little bit.
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But that's the great thing about gaining more experience is each time, I would assume, and you can correct me on this, but every time you enter that um uh interaction after that first time, you go in with a little bit more confidence, a little bit more understanding of what's inspected.
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Um, and honestly, I always say like the unexpected aspects of a new situation are sometimes even scarier than than going into the situation itself, just because you haven't been in that seat before, you haven't been in that position.
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And so, you know, every time you come back with a little bit more uh confidence and knowledge.
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Yeah, it's um you definitely have the adrenaline pumping the first time.
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Now I go into court and I, you know, it's a different story.
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It it comes with experience.
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We're we're grateful to have you kind of share your insights on this for those people who might be considering this down the road.
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And it's a very exciting area of work.
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If you enjoy being your own boss, you start small, you build up your enterprise as you go, you train others, but it is a very exciting area to work.
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I that's everybody who's in this uh work setting loves it that I've talked to.
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So it's it's very encouraging.
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And I think you know, we're seeing more CRCs and CVEs look to private practice as where they want to spend their career.
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Um, we know like a third of CRCs work for state agencies, a ton of folks work in the federal spaces and agencies, but private practice and expert testimony in particular are really areas where there's a lot more interest.
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And, you know, while this is an established place that CRCs and CVEs can work, there's always more room to uh continue to advocate for this work setting.
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So I'm curious, in your professional opinion, what are things we can be doing to advocate more for CRCs to be working as expert witnesses, as uh providing this testimony and really just growing this pathway for the field?
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Well, I think the CRCC starting to look into uh private rehabilitation, private forensic rehabilitation will inform the field that it exists.
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So that's important.
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And then for each practitioner or potential business owner, just starting to get in, you need to market to attorneys in your area.
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And you need to tell them how you can offer clarification for the triers of fact.
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So that it's kind of a grassroots effort.
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Then again, that there are larger companies, maybe like three to eight larger companies in private forensic rehabilitation.
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So the more work we do, the more the field uh can grow.
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But um, if you're if you're looking to start out marketing to attorneys in your area, letting them know how you can offer clarification, how you can, what type of evaluation questions you can answer for the triers effect.
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Those are things that will help.
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And something I'm very grateful to you for is in our initial conversation kind of about CRCC wanting to do more to promote um this work setting, is that you from the get-go were very open to say, you know, to see this field grow and this part of the field grow, it's important to be able to share knowledge, not keep it for yourself.
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And I thought that that was a really profound thing that you shared and that, you know, coming on this podcast and a lot of the work we'll be doing together, you know, in the future relies heavily on, you know, your experiences and expertise.
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And I think the the folks listening to this episode hopefully have a better idea now of what expert forensic work looks like, thanks to you and and what that might look like if they want to pursue this.
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And I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, getting to pay it forward with the knowledge and and experience you have.
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Thank you.
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I I really appreciate uh your sentiments and your words.
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And and I enjoy the field.
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I want other people to have a place in it too.
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It it is very exciting, seeing it's kind of like the I I often relate things back to the medical field.
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I think about surgeons, and the very first time that you go to do it, you must feel like, oh my God, I can't believe they're trusting this to me.
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That's kind of what you feel like when you're going in to testify for the very first time.
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They make you hold your right hand up and they say, you know, do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
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So help you, God.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:58.160
And the whole time you're saying to yourself, I I can't believe that they're trusting this, you know, this responsibility to me.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:00.000
Uh, it is exciting.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:05.680
Um and I want other people, uh I I welcome the field into this space.
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:13.279
The court systems are an exciting, uh, especially as a private business owner, there's um exciting parts to that as well.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.440
Growing your business is exciting.
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.160
Um, so I would welcome others into the field.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:24.880
Yeah, I can already tell like a follow-up episode that would be great is the business aspect of all of this and kind of like what does that look like?
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:30.000
And how can people get prepared to um face that part of this of this profession?
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.240
And um, it'll be interesting to develop some more stuff for that in the future.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.599
And just super grateful for everything that you've shared so far, Dr.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:38.480
Wolstein.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:53.279
And um, I'm curious, you know, we end every episode of the podcast on the same note because I think as you mentioned at the top, you know, the people who are attracted to this profession come into this field because they want to do um something impactful for people.
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:59.119
And I think feeling drawn or called to that sort of work um really comes from a place of joy.
00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:02.240
And so I love asking our guests to kind of wrap up the conversation.
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:04.960
What brings you joy in the work that you do?
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:09.759
So um there's a difference between clinical ethics and forensic ethics.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:17.839
In clinical work, you have um ethics um and loyalty to the client and to the field.
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:29.519
In forensics, you have you don't have a client, you just have uh an evaluation and evaluation questions, and you need to address those objectively.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:23:08.799
But I will say that the best feeling in that I've ever gotten in this field is when uh you um you do an evaluation and you're very, very confident in your findings and conclusions, and you go in to court and you testify and you endure a cross-exam that's very intelligently woven together, and you still defend and express your opinions clearly and coherently, and you walk out knowing that um your testimony was uh just feeling so good about your testimony that you you illustrated your points logically.
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:18.559
You kind of walk out of the courtroom like you're walking on sunshine, just knowing that you expressed everything very, very matter-of-factly and and and and straight to the point.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:20.160
That's the best it gets.
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:23.279
Thank you to Dr.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.519
Wallstein for his expertise and time.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:34.480
We are excited to partner with Kincaid Wallstein to develop more content and informational resources about this work setting for CRCs all across the country.
00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:38.880
Learn more about Kincaid Wallstein by visiting the links in our show notes.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:48.799
If you have a question that might help guide future projects on this topic of expert testimony, you can email me at contact us at crccertification.com.
00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:56.319
You can also find us on social media, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn by searching CRC Cert.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:05.440
Like, subscribe, and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to us today.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.480
Thank you for listening to Inside Rehabilitation Counseling.
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:12.160
I'm CRCC, Director of Communications and Marketing Taylor Bauer.
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:13.119
Take care.
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:07.120
Welcome back to Inside Rehabilitation Counseling.
00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:10.800
I'm CRCC Director of Communications and Marketing, Taylor Bauer.
00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:16.320
I'm excited to bring you another conversation exploring the art and science of rehabilitation counseling.
00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:21.519
Across over 30 work settings, there's so much you can do professionally as a CRC.
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Now, in my five years of hosting this podcast, I've seen a growing interest from certified rehabilitation counselors in court testimony and starting a new endeavor in this space.
00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:34.479
So is expert testimony right for you?
00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:46.560
We can't necessarily answer that for each individual listener, but we can bring on an expert who is successful in this work setting to share their knowledge and hopefully help you decide if this is the direction you want to head in.
00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:47.920
Our guest today is Dr.
00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:53.679
Daniel Wolstein, CEO and president of Kincaid Wolstein, a CRCC premiere partner.
00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:54.159
Dr.
00:00:54.159 --> 00:01:05.359
Wolstein has an extensive amount of knowledge about court proceedings, and in this episode, you'll hear him detail his path and how mentorship and certain qualities can make this a setting for success for CRCs.
00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:05.760
Dr.
00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:09.760
Wolstein, thank you so much for joining me here on Inside Rehabilitation Counseling.
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:16.560
I'm really excited because you and your organization are our latest premier partner here at CRCC.
00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:21.920
So we're going to get to work a lot together on some exciting initiatives, kind of starting with this podcast.
00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:23.840
So I'm really grateful for your time today.
00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:25.359
Oh, thank you for having me.
00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.439
And we're very excited about our partnership.
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And we'll do great things together.
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Oh, I I know it.
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Even just, you know, the initial conversations have been really positive.
00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:39.439
And I think there's a lot of potential in the specific work setting that you and your organization operate in.
00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:45.439
And I guess to be fair, you operate in a few different work settings within vocational rehabilitation and evaluation.
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So we'll definitely dive into a lot of that on this episode.
00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:53.840
Um, but I always love starting with our guests kind of um at the beginning of their professional journey.
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So can you tell me a little bit about where you first became aware of rehabilitation counseling as a profession and what drew you to this line of work?
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My late mentor, Dr.
00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.760
Charles Kincaid, had gotten me into the field.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:17.919
He was involved in forensic settings at the time that he introduced me to the field, but he also still gave me an overview of the clinical aspects of rehabilitation counseling.
00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:20.879
Helping others is something that's been important to me.
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The actual professional work of helping others was interesting to me.
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Um, it's not the direction that I went in, but um I've always felt that there's some resonance with the field of rehabilitation counseling and the personality type.
00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:41.039
Um, so he introduced me, he kind of gave me his progression of his career uh and how it led him to forensics.
00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:46.080
Um, but the the personality type of helping others is certainly one that resonated with me.
00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:59.520
Yeah, I feel like that's a throw line for a lot of people who enter this field is like the common denominator, no matter what you thought you were going to do professionally or what your goal was, you know, in your career, is that you want to make an impact on others.
00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:03.439
And I feel like that's a that's a very easy thing to do when you're in this line of work.
00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:04.080
Certainly.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:10.319
Yeah, the social services field, I think it definitely pulls a certain personality type that gets drawn to it.
00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:20.800
Um, those that are very caring, um, those that do want to help others, it's it's nice to be in a field where it's interwoven, uh rooted in caring individuals.
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Yeah, there's no shortage of people who wanna who want to do good in this world, in this profession.
00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:28.719
So we're grateful for all of you, you know, choosing to go this route.
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Uh, you are the CEO and president of Kingcaid Wolstein Vocational and Rehabilitation Services.
00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:43.280
Um, and your firm specializes in providing expert forensic vocational evaluations, uh, plans, analyses, and testimony for attorneys.
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Um, and you know, that's just a little bit of what you all do.
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I, you know, your list of services on your website across vocational and rehabilitation services is, you know, pretty vast.
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Tell me a little bit about how your team operates and and where you provide these services.
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Perhaps my contribution to the CRCC can be to shed light on the forensic side because that's one of my main areas of practice.
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Uh, forensic services means I used to think of it more as investigative, but forensic means related to the court systems and still putting on your kind of investigative hat, or it's an investigative role.
00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:27.040
But uh these evaluations are tied to litigation proceedings, meaning that there's a court case uh related to the evaluation.
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If you're um a solo practitioner, then you may be accounting for everything, but as you get larger, there really becomes two departments at the very least.
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You have your administrative side and then you have the expert side, and they need to grow in parallel with one another as well.
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:46.480
The admin side in my firm, I call them the expert liaisons.
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They're the intermediary between the expert and the attorneys.
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So they organize case materials.
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Sometimes I call those, and other people call those the expert package.
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It's the set of materials that are related to the case that the attorney wants to be reviewed and basing the opinions of your evaluation on.
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So, like medical records, legal exhibits, like depositions, uh parallel to the expert liaisons and the admin side is your expert side.
00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:30.560
Um, at Kincaid Wallstein, we have about 10 experts and we work closely with the liaisons, but the expert work would be like um doing the interviews, testifying in court about your findings.
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Um one thing that's common to the clinical field as it is to the forensic field is the transferable skills analysis.
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.920
One thing that we do at my company is uh we evaluate injuries.
00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.839
So there's really two time frames, and there's two concepts.
00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:54.720
The time frames are pre-injury and post-injury, so before and after being injured, and employability and earning capacity.
00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:58.800
So both time frames apply to both concepts.
00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:09.920
As experts, we are rendering our opinions within a reasonable degree of professional certainty, but we're working with our admin side to accomplish work and be productive.
00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:17.360
And uh the admin side will organize all of our materials, schedule interviews and evaluations, schedule courts.
00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:24.800
We'll go through the, you know, we'll do our expert evaluations and render our opinions within a reasonable degree of professional certainty.
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:25.439
I love it.
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:43.600
Yeah, and it's it's helpful to have those two kind of branches working in tandem because there is, I would imagine, not working in this line of work, uh, there is a lot of organization and you know, deadlines and precise, you know, uh record keeping, I guess, to be able to follow these proceedings.
00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:53.279
And and so much of that is added, I don't want to say burden, but I guess uh a better way to say it is like added work on top of actually just performing the evaluations and the analysis.
00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:58.639
So it's great to have kind of those two two branches of of what you all do working in tandem.
00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:13.920
And like you said, if if the uh expert testimony or um, you know, expert vocational evaluation side is growing, then the admin side grows too, because there's just more to navigate, more to keep track of, and more to continue to you know collect as you take on more and more cases.
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:14.319
Right.
00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:15.600
And it's probably similar.
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:25.040
Well, it is similar to the way it is in the clinical field too, like these state agencies like DVR in New Jersey, they have the admin side and then they they have the clinicians.
00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:32.639
So it's still bifurcated into those two uh categories of work or categories of organizing business.
00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:45.839
Well, and I think laying that out was really helpful, I'm sure, for our audience because expert testimony and consulting in general are some of the fastest growing sectors for CRCs looking uh in particular to start their own business.
00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:58.879
We have a lot of CRCs who maybe spend time working for a state agency or um a community organization, and then they kind of know, you know, I'm ready to look at what the options are if I were to start my own practice or my own business.
00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:07.120
So I'm curious from your perspective and expertise, what are some of the qualities you think make a CRC fit to work in this particular setting?
00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:08.480
It's two areas.
00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.879
There's qualities and there's qualifications.
00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:24.879
So your master's degree and your CRC credential, those are your qualifications and your background in working with people who have return to work issues or vocational counseling, those are your qualifications.
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:31.519
Your qualities, being able to work well with people is probably going to be important.
00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:38.720
As with all groups of people, attorneys, you have a lot of different personalities and it can be very intense work.
00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:49.360
Many attorneys are such nice individuals, you know, big caring individuals, and they can be very easy to work with, and other attorneys can be very intense.
00:08:49.360 --> 00:09:01.279
So the qualities, being able to work well with others, that's a transferable skill that would uh go from clinical work to forensic work.
00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:13.600
But the qualifications, the experience that you have in vocational counseling and vocational evaluation, doing transferable skills analyses clinically also translates forensically too.
00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:23.200
So you can talk about your experience in working with individuals who are in need of return to work or need of assistance in their return to work process.
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:26.960
So qualities versus qualifications, they're both important.
00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:38.720
Yeah, I think that's a great way to delineate that because there are a lot of people maybe who have worked in this field for a long time who, you know, they like the idea of branching out into expert testimony and things like that.
00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:54.320
But there is a particular um difference in just like you said, having to work with people of varying personalities and also just like a legal setting or a court setting is so different than, you know, working one-on-one with a client in in more of a clinical counseling setting.
00:09:54.320 --> 00:10:02.879
So it is, I think, really important um that you laid out sort of what those what those things are that would aid an individual in being fit for this.
00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:12.000
And it's not to say that maybe if, you know, it's not something you have a ton of experience with, there aren't ways to uh prepare yourself to maybe go into this field or this part of the field.
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:30.240
And, you know, I think for a lot of people, especially if they've maybe only been in the field for a couple of years, they might not be quite ready to dive into expert testimony full time as their profession, but they might be wanting to position themselves toward that as a future goal.
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:43.679
So I'm curious, you know, what are some of the areas of specialty or even as they're knocking out continuing education for their certification, what are some of those topics that they should be investing time in as they decide whether or not this is a good fit for themselves?
00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:52.399
There are other board organizations that can allow you to certify and become involved in forensics.
00:10:52.399 --> 00:11:01.120
Um, I would encourage everyone to that's interested in this field to look up some of the board organizations and certifying bodies.
00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:02.559
And you need a mentor.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:16.159
Um, mentoring is very important and um being uh being able to work closely with a professional or an expert that has a lot of testifying experience, and they uh they call them court appearances.
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:27.279
So in this line of work, there's something called your you have to stay consistent with the code of federal regulations that's CFR, and they have certain documents.
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:31.600
So the CFR 26, I believe it is, is your list of appearances.
00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:37.200
And so the longer your list of appearances, the more experience you have testifying.
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:47.120
And so what I would say, individuals searching for mentors, they want to make sure that they're the expert that they learn from has a lot of experience testifying.
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:51.440
And you can ask them if they're willing to share it, you can ask for their CFR 26.
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:52.480
That's really interesting.
00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:59.759
And like obviously at the top, you said a huge part of your, you know, lineage of getting into the position you're in now was mentorship.
00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:21.919
And I think that makes such a big difference having someone to learn from, not only like the ins and outs of like the systems that you're in and you know, what's expected of you professionally, but even just getting to hear from someone with experience, you know, lessons they wish they had learned earlier in their career or things that are super helpful as you're getting started versus, you know, once you're a bit more established, things that kind of feel second nature.
00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:28.720
I feel like those are very invaluable bits of learning that, you know, we we always think of uh in certification at least.
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:33.919
You know, we think of you need the master's degree and then you pass the CRC exam and then you do your continuing education.
00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:40.399
There's a very intangible um value to just mentorship and being able to learn from someone who's done this before you.
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:47.120
So the most one of the most intense parts of our job is cross-exam, and it can be aggressive.
00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:54.399
A little bit of it wouldn't be the first time that I've seen screaming in the courtroom, but it can also be very exciting too.
00:12:54.639 --> 00:13:02.000
I I think we all picture for those of us who don't work in a court setting or or something like that, you know, our minds immediately go to TV or movies, you know.
00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:06.159
And you'll hear from a lot of people like, well, it's not always like that, but sometimes it is.
00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.000
So it's funny to hear you say that.
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:09.360
It really can be.
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:10.240
And and Dr.
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:21.600
Wallstein, isn't it true that when you evaluated my client, X, Y, and you know, they're they're they're trying to find uh cross-exam can be very intense, it but exciting too.
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:22.399
I can imagine.
00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:33.200
I would I would really feel, at least for myself, I feel like that first time that you know you were really kind of getting grilled a little bit, it would be a little bit of like a adrenaline rush, like, oh my gosh, what is happening right now?
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.039
But uh, you know, I think it's a good thing.
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:46.399
I mean, I I'm grateful that you called that out because, you know, for these settings where you're working with attorneys, CRCs and CVEs are are very much looked at experts in disability.
00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:55.679
And, you know, in a court setting, you're not going to just be accepted as an expert and there's no, you know, questioning or cross-examining, as you said, you know, testimony you're giving.
00:13:55.679 --> 00:14:04.080
So with those kind of intensive questionings or investigations into your analysis, what is preparing for that process look like?
00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:10.320
And and how does, you know, being a CRC or a C VE prepare you for this sort of interaction?
00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:14.320
Well, we have a lot of experience in working with people who are.
00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:21.039
So there's a once again, our our professional experience prepares us in forming our opinions, right?
00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:29.440
So you're when you're in court, you're there to express your opinions and on direct and and defend your opinions on cross-exam.
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:33.279
It's our professional experience that really gears us up to testify.
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:43.279
However, each and every court case, in order to prepare for the specifics, like there's general experience that prepares you, and then there's the specific court case.
00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:53.840
And the way that you prepare for the specific court case is by reviewing the material for the case, like the expert package and the facts of the case.
00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:57.759
Just knowing the background facts is critically important.
00:14:57.759 --> 00:14:58.480
Right.
00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:04.159
So age, education, employment history, what are the medical doctors saying?
00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:14.080
Knowing your methodology is important, and reviewing your methodology and seeing what assumptions you made prior to testifying in court, your conclusions.
00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:21.360
Uh, the most important thing is being able to articulate your conclusions to the triers of fact.
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:28.399
In a bench trial, there's no jury, so you would just be articulating your opinions to the judge.
00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:34.000
And then in a jury trial, you know, you have somewhere between six and ten members of the jury.
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:38.399
You need to be able to articulate your opinions clearly and then defend them clearly as well.
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:52.720
I I could see that being a place where mentorship also comes into um, you know, deep value because you you as a CRC, you know, you you know all the training and education you've had, and you know that you know how to do your job, right?
00:15:52.720 --> 00:16:00.960
But then kind of being put in a place where you have to really hold your own and justify, you know, your expertise, I think it can be very intimidating.
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:12.399
And so it's it's probably really helpful to talk to people who've been in that role who can kind of almost talk you through like how to not feel, I don't know, overwhelmed by having someone sit there and be like, Do you like how do you how do you know this?
00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:13.679
Was this done correctly?
00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:16.000
Are these your um opinions?
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:20.320
And so I could just imagine that that's a a whirlwind of of an experience.
00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:30.159
The first time you go through a cross-exam, it's like you're in a blender and everything is you're in the center of a blender the eye of the storm, everything's just spinning around you.
00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:32.960
You get better as you gain more experience.
00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:33.919
Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:42.879
I heard one other person who who's in this line of work say that after their first one, they kind of were done and they blinked and they were like, I don't know if I really remember what just happened.
00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:44.720
You know, it's almost out of body a little bit.
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:59.200
But that's the great thing about gaining more experience is each time, I would assume, and you can correct me on this, but every time you enter that um uh interaction after that first time, you go in with a little bit more confidence, a little bit more understanding of what's inspected.
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:10.640
Um, and honestly, I always say like the unexpected aspects of a new situation are sometimes even scarier than than going into the situation itself, just because you haven't been in that seat before, you haven't been in that position.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.880
And so, you know, every time you come back with a little bit more uh confidence and knowledge.
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.559
Yeah, it's um you definitely have the adrenaline pumping the first time.
00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.240
Now I go into court and I, you know, it's a different story.
00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.000
It it comes with experience.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:29.759
We're we're grateful to have you kind of share your insights on this for those people who might be considering this down the road.
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:32.160
And it's a very exciting area of work.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:41.759
If you enjoy being your own boss, you start small, you build up your enterprise as you go, you train others, but it is a very exciting area to work.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:46.240
I that's everybody who's in this uh work setting loves it that I've talked to.
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:47.839
So it's it's very encouraging.
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:56.319
And I think you know, we're seeing more CRCs and CVEs look to private practice as where they want to spend their career.
00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:09.680
Um, we know like a third of CRCs work for state agencies, a ton of folks work in the federal spaces and agencies, but private practice and expert testimony in particular are really areas where there's a lot more interest.
00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:18.559
And, you know, while this is an established place that CRCs and CVEs can work, there's always more room to uh continue to advocate for this work setting.
00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:34.160
So I'm curious, in your professional opinion, what are things we can be doing to advocate more for CRCs to be working as expert witnesses, as uh providing this testimony and really just growing this pathway for the field?
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:43.440
Well, I think the CRCC starting to look into uh private rehabilitation, private forensic rehabilitation will inform the field that it exists.
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:44.480
So that's important.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:54.160
And then for each practitioner or potential business owner, just starting to get in, you need to market to attorneys in your area.
00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:59.279
And you need to tell them how you can offer clarification for the triers of fact.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.599
So that it's kind of a grassroots effort.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:09.359
Then again, that there are larger companies, maybe like three to eight larger companies in private forensic rehabilitation.
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:13.359
So the more work we do, the more the field uh can grow.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:29.599
But um, if you're if you're looking to start out marketing to attorneys in your area, letting them know how you can offer clarification, how you can, what type of evaluation questions you can answer for the triers effect.
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:31.519
Those are things that will help.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:52.640
And something I'm very grateful to you for is in our initial conversation kind of about CRCC wanting to do more to promote um this work setting, is that you from the get-go were very open to say, you know, to see this field grow and this part of the field grow, it's important to be able to share knowledge, not keep it for yourself.
00:19:52.640 --> 00:20:03.440
And I thought that that was a really profound thing that you shared and that, you know, coming on this podcast and a lot of the work we'll be doing together, you know, in the future relies heavily on, you know, your experiences and expertise.
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:13.519
And I think the the folks listening to this episode hopefully have a better idea now of what expert forensic work looks like, thanks to you and and what that might look like if they want to pursue this.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:18.799
And I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, getting to pay it forward with the knowledge and and experience you have.
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:19.359
Thank you.
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:22.640
I I really appreciate uh your sentiments and your words.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:23.920
And and I enjoy the field.
00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:26.160
I want other people to have a place in it too.
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:33.519
It it is very exciting, seeing it's kind of like the I I often relate things back to the medical field.
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:40.319
I think about surgeons, and the very first time that you go to do it, you must feel like, oh my God, I can't believe they're trusting this to me.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.079
That's kind of what you feel like when you're going in to testify for the very first time.
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:49.119
They make you hold your right hand up and they say, you know, do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:50.400
So help you, God.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:58.160
And the whole time you're saying to yourself, I I can't believe that they're trusting this, you know, this responsibility to me.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:00.000
Uh, it is exciting.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:05.680
Um and I want other people, uh I I welcome the field into this space.
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:13.279
The court systems are an exciting, uh, especially as a private business owner, there's um exciting parts to that as well.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.440
Growing your business is exciting.
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.160
Um, so I would welcome others into the field.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:24.880
Yeah, I can already tell like a follow-up episode that would be great is the business aspect of all of this and kind of like what does that look like?
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:30.000
And how can people get prepared to um face that part of this of this profession?
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.240
And um, it'll be interesting to develop some more stuff for that in the future.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.599
And just super grateful for everything that you've shared so far, Dr.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:38.480
Wolstein.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:53.279
And um, I'm curious, you know, we end every episode of the podcast on the same note because I think as you mentioned at the top, you know, the people who are attracted to this profession come into this field because they want to do um something impactful for people.
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:59.119
And I think feeling drawn or called to that sort of work um really comes from a place of joy.
00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:02.240
And so I love asking our guests to kind of wrap up the conversation.
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:04.960
What brings you joy in the work that you do?
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:09.759
So um there's a difference between clinical ethics and forensic ethics.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:17.839
In clinical work, you have um ethics um and loyalty to the client and to the field.
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:29.519
In forensics, you have you don't have a client, you just have uh an evaluation and evaluation questions, and you need to address those objectively.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:23:08.799
But I will say that the best feeling in that I've ever gotten in this field is when uh you um you do an evaluation and you're very, very confident in your findings and conclusions, and you go in to court and you testify and you endure a cross-exam that's very intelligently woven together, and you still defend and express your opinions clearly and coherently, and you walk out knowing that um your testimony was uh just feeling so good about your testimony that you you illustrated your points logically.
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:18.559
You kind of walk out of the courtroom like you're walking on sunshine, just knowing that you expressed everything very, very matter-of-factly and and and and straight to the point.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:20.160
That's the best it gets.
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:23.279
Thank you to Dr.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.519
Wallstein for his expertise and time.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:34.480
We are excited to partner with Kincaid Wallstein to develop more content and informational resources about this work setting for CRCs all across the country.
00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:38.880
Learn more about Kincaid Wallstein by visiting the links in our show notes.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:48.799
If you have a question that might help guide future projects on this topic of expert testimony, you can email me at contact us at crccertification.com.
00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:56.319
You can also find us on social media, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn by searching CRC Cert.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:05.440
Like, subscribe, and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to us today.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.480
Thank you for listening to Inside Rehabilitation Counseling.
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:12.160
I'm CRCC, Director of Communications and Marketing Taylor Bauer.
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:13.119
Take care.
