Jürgen:
00:00:08
Welcome to the InnovaBuzz podcast, where our job is to help you build visibility, professional credibility, and connection with your ideal client by putting the human at the center of innovative marketing, so you can build and strengthen an engaging, enduring relationship with your ideal clients. I'm Juergen Strauss from InnovaBiz, and I'm honored that you're here with me. If you haven't yet joined our wonderful Flywheel Nation community, go to flywheelnation. com and join in the podcast conversations. Do subscribe to the show and also leave a review, because it helps others find us. Let's get into today's masterclass on this Innoverbuzz podcast. Hi, I'm your host, Juergen Strauss from InnovaBiz, and I'm really thrilled to welcome to the InnovaBuzz podcast today from New Jersey in the USA, Jay Malone, who's the founder of Profit Ladder. Jay is known as the productized services guy and specializes in helping consultants and coaches. Turn their premium high touch services into scalable automated offers that attract their ideal clients and boost their profits with a background in tech and years of experience running his own consulting business. Jay has transformed the way small business owners approach sales and growth. Welcome to the another buzz podcast. Jay, it's a real privilege to have you as my guest.
Jay Melone:
00:01:51
Thanks,
Jürgen:
00:01:51
Now I'm excited to delve into our conversation today, your journey from. Being burnt out to building a business that works for you is such a compelling story. And I'm sure something that most entrepreneurs can resonate with in one form or another. So can you share more about what inspired you to create Profit Ladder and the impact you hope to make today?
Jay Melone:
00:02:17
Yeah. So, uh, as you mentioned, I ran a technology consulting business for, from 2010 to, well, it still exists if I'm being honest, but I kind of parked it in late 2023. And you could say that that business was a prototype, a 15 year prototype of me figuring out how to be a business owner. And so, um, right out of the gate, I'll tell people that are struggling, that they haven't figured it all out after a year or a couple of years in business. These things take time. And so I, I built my business. It was, it's called new haircut and we started as a web design firm. That's where the name came from. We were often building new websites and new branding new. So like new look and new, new feel. And eventually we progressed into more of a strategy consulting business. So we would get hired after, uh, after enough time in the market, we got good enough to get hired by companies like Google, Amazon, Ford, Home Depot, MailChimp. Really great brands. And we would get hired to go in there and tell them, basically like help them make the right bets. So technologists and marketers and product people would hire us to come in and take a look at their roadmap and their customers and do some research and build some prototypes and help them validate that the direction they were going in was the right one. And if not have them pivot before they spent millions of dollars and years of people's time and effort to build the wrong thing. And so those programs that we would run were very intense. They were six months, 12 months long. Uh, at a point they cost somewhere upwards of a hundred to 200, 000 or more. And so all of those things combined, you're running long programs. It's not cheap. And I'm selling often into executives at large companies. All of those things, there's a ton of friction in the sales process. Of getting in front of my buyers of convincing them. Why me? I'm often going against the McKinsey's and the IDEOs and the Deloitte's of the world. And here I am this little 30 person company called new haircut, funny name. So I had to convince them. And my background was in software development. So I was. I was sorry for the, for the cursing. It's just what comes to mind. I was a pig and shit sitting in a cubicle during my corporate days with headphones on writing code. I loved it. I love the creativity of, of writing code that would solve business problems. And so when I started a business, I imagine that that's what work would look like. I would still be able to kind of like, just tune the world out, build, build stuff, work on the website and that. Customers would line up at the door and the rude awakening after the first, even the couple of months, I was like, Oh, that's not how it works. Uh, and so like I had to learn sales on the fly, marketing, sales, all the things, um, a great set of skills to learn. As a, as a business owner and very overwhelming and super challenging. Um, especially because I have like a heavy introverted side. So sales calls really exhausted me and that long sales grind, which was 12, 18 months long, two years long of like constantly chasing eventually, as you, as you said, it really did burn me out. So that went on for the better part of a decade and what I started to ask myself is, I wonder what this would look like if I could make my job of selling easier and in doing so get my tools and resources and sort of expertise of myself and the team in my customers hands with a lot less friction, a lot less time wasted and. It's just in general, make the process easier and better. So I started to repackage the work that I did into these just smaller things, which today I call wedge offers. And it, it worked. The short answer is it worked and it worked really well. It worked so well that I got sort of buried in the work that I did. And in late 2023, having like spent the next few, those last few years building all of these offers and connecting them all into this ecosystem, which I would call a flywheel today. I decided that this has been great. And I think I'm in a stage where I want to take my systems and bring it to other. Business owners that are probably struggling to also build their own business. And that, that sort of that 15 year experience and that light bulb moment to say, like, I want to take this and apply it in a different way was the start of profit letter.
Jürgen:
00:06:58
Fascinating story. I'm curious. You mentioned the idea of wedge products and then everything coming together as, as a flywheel. So first of all, um, what exactly is this idea of a productized service? And, and then explain to us this idea of wedge office and everything coming together as a system.
Jay Melone:
00:07:25
Yeah. So flywheel, I read a book called by James Collins. I think it's called turning the flywheel. And a flywheel is just a mechanical engineering concept. It's a really large wheel that in and of itself is hard to, to begin spinning because it's so big and so heavy and it requires like a lot of energy to get that thing spinning. But once it is spinning, what it does is it builds up rotational energy. And once that's going, the whole kind of system is just, it's almost like momentum takes care of itself. And I really like that concept because in the work that we do as like consultants and coaches in particular, there's this body of work, which I call your signature offer. It tends to be the more expensive thing that you offer. It requires, in most cases, it requires a lot of your time. It requires your client's time and their team's time. Sometimes multiple people have to agree that this is what they need and this is how it's going to work. And so we use all of these tools to get that wheel spinning, to get it sold and to get it started. There's a lot of coordinating, there's a lot of sign offs, there's a lot of payment, and that is hard to get going in and of itself. And so what I noticed, what I was doing was I was writing blogs and sending emails and doing a little bit of social posts. And then what I expected was that people would come from that sort of like real top of funnel of just getting familiar with me and my brand and the problems I solved. And getting on a sales call with me and buying, spending a hundred thousand dollars with me. And that's a huge leap to assume people will go through. So instead, as I, as I think about it as a flywheel, if instead the way a flywheel works is you have smaller wheels that you can apply smaller amounts of energy to. And as they start to spin, they start to put more rotational energy into the big flywheel. So this is basically the concept that I brought into my work. And to be honest, I stole what works from the SAS industry. The SAS industry has freemium offers. They have trial periods and we love it. We're like, we look at a tool, we look at a platform. We look at a, uh, um, an app that we find. And we always choose the free trial if there's an option there because we want to, we want to see, we want to, we want to get familiar with it. But for whatever reason, the service industry doesn't really do a great job of that. We do free work, we give away IP and intellectual capital that we probably should keep to do in the work itself. And so the wedge offer is really just that. That really well packaged taste of what it will be like to work with you where a lot of people get it wrong. There's two areas. One is they jump into productizing everything overnight. So those are the people that build online courses. They take 20 years of experience. They launch a course. They only really had a couple hundred followers on LinkedIn or a few people on an email list, and they announced it out into the world expecting the doors to get knocked down and it's crickets. And the problem is they just, they didn't build, they didn't build in public. They didn't let people know what they were working on. They didn't draw people in. They didn't build the right thing that solved the right problem. And they probably over engineered it without enough experience of doing that work in a way that other people could use their tools without them holding their hand all the way through it. So I do it a little bit differently, and that's why I talk about flywheels. I build my concept is a reverse flywheel. So I help people take the signature work that they do and chunk it down into what I call a scoped offer. And that's really just a module or a smaller problem or a thing you do over and over again that people are like, wow, that was, that was great, right? That's what we're going for. We're going for. high value, easy to buy and solves an important problem that gives them the perception of what it's going to be like to work with you in your bigger ticket thing.
Jürgen:
00:11:29
So that's, that's the wedge, as you call it, the wedge product.
Jay Melone:
00:11:35
Yeah. So wedge offers, I kind of split into two. I have their scoped offers, which is just you doing a smaller bit of the work that you do in your signature offer. And then a productized offer is more of that sort of do it yourself digital version of something that you can take and package from the work that you're doing over and over and put it into your customer's hands with less and less of your direct involvement in the process. That's where courses can be really powerful, but not if you jump the gun and do that right out of the gate.
Jürgen:
00:12:05
All right. Well, um, you mentioned courses, so, and, and that's like, I've seen it dry up a little bit over the past maybe two years, but before that courses were the big thing and everybody should be doing courses and it's the, it's the way of the future. Um, what, what do you think is. The proper way to kind of test that out and try that out like you, you mentioned the idea of the SAS product where as a consumer, we get to try something out for say a week or a month and then decide whether we like it and whether we want to pay for it for a longer period, how, how can somebody turn that concept around if they've got a intellectual property Let's say, and they want to turn that into a course. How can they trial that in a small manner before they go all in and write this course with 50 modules that's going to take a year to record all the videos and write the content and do the sales process and everything?
Jay Melone:
00:13:23
So, it's actually, it's easier once you understand it, it's a lot more easier and obvious. So when you begin with a scope, so first of all, most people, their initial problem that they have, especially in the early years is cashflow. They just don't have enough predictable revenue coming in. They've got a lot of people in their pipeline that don't belong there. They're just kind of kicking the tires, wasting their time, wasting your time. And so your revenue, you go through fits and spurts, uh, you get those feast or famine cycles where you're selling, selling, selling, and then doing the work and then you don't sell. So you got to go back and still sell some more. And so there's no like consistent inbound of leads that you can actually generate money from. So if at that stage you say, Hey, I want to build a course because I think that's going to fix my revenue issue, my revenue problem, that's a really bad idea because unless you have. Lots and lots of followers who are engaged and supporting your work and really kind of like Engaged and they're fans of what you're doing. You're not going to get enough sales Especially if you run a business that has more than just yourself a course like that You know most courses sell for in the US say average 100 to 300 dollars So you'd have to sell hundreds of courses on a monthly basis or so, you know, like a good number of courses on a recurring basis. And that's probably not going to happen if you've got a tiny little list that's unengaged. And then, like I mentioned earlier, the other problem is that there's a level of mastery. So like when you, when you and I do what we do for a living, we're really good at using our frameworks and asking questions and then kind of going off and doing work and meeting back with our clients. And we're directly involved in the success that our clients have. Because we know what to ask the right order in which to do it, where we're going to run into issues where we have to like, uh, like engage our clients to show up with a set of things that they've accomplished before our working sessions together. All of that is orchestrated by you. You're sort of that magician. When you give that in a course that's pre packaged that maybe has videos of you, there is an element that's missing from that. And until you've taught it at a way that people can understand it and use it without you in the room with them, that's really hard for people to have success with. And then, so not only is, do you not have a big audience buying the course, but the people that do buy it don't really get the results. And that's when people say like, I tried a course, it didn't work. So. The better way to do it. And on top of it, you mentioned a real, another big problem, which is dedicating all the additional time to record and capture all of those assets. So the way I like to do it differently in reverse is to turn that into a scoped offer, do the work, do it with your clients, do it in small chunks, sell it in ways that is easy for you to bring money in on a recurring basis. So things that you can charge a thousand bucks, 2000 bucks, 5, 000 bucks for things that are easier, smaller packages that are easier to get a yes on. And they are components of your sort of like grand signature offer that you have. As you do that work over and over with individual clients. You get better, your confidence gets better, your techniques get better. You're also learning how to answer questions. You're providing examples because everybody gets stuck at this one part in your framework that no one can quite figure out unless you give them a really good example. And now you've figured out the example that works. You create homework for them so when you get into the session it works for them. Then you've doubled down and created a template so that they can do that homework more successfully. All of that stuff. Is all of the material that eventually goes into your course. So instead of just ad hoc creating all that stuff so that you can build a course, use it to get better and better and optimize the work that you're actually doing. And then once you have a good chunk of it and you're really clear on what that course should be about, and you've got a really good positioning and you know who the ideal client is for it. Now it's a much better time because you've got cash coming in and you have the expertise and all the assets. To then turn all of that stuff
Jürgen:
00:17:39
So it's kind of building it, but building it in a systematic way. One of the things I'm curious about, you mentioned the signature product and I, I think a lot of businesses really struggle with that idea of what is their signature product or signature service and, and then how do you, um, chunk out those. Smaller components of that, that, that would be an easy entry or that wedge product as you call it. How do you work with people to define that concept of the signature product and then start to break it down into smaller components?
Jay Melone:
00:18:24
Yeah. When I ask people to name what they do, that's you hit on like the very, the most fundamental core business problem that I think I don't hear enough people talking about. We talk about marketing problems and fix the website and build your audience. Uh, you know, go on podcasts. Like all of those things are very helpful for audience building, but if at the center you don't have an offer that you can really get behind, a lot of the other things are going to sort of crumble underneath that. So that's exactly, that's a great question because when I ask people to describe their work, they'll, they'll name skills that they have. Um, it's almost like they paint a resume for me. And I hear some people say like, you know, Jay, I don't want to package anything because I don't want to be pigeonholed to only do that thing. And I'm like, that's fine. I, I understand that. And The point of you having an offer and a service is to be able to sell it and do it. And if all of your clients are doing is coming and leaving because they don't get what you do, then you never have a chance to do that package, get really good at it and then customize it as much as you need and feel comfortable doing. But it's a start. It's a place to begin the conversation, not the thing that you will, you'll not be on an assembly line, only doing that exact formula. Every time there'll always be customization and tailoring, but The right signature offer brings the right people to you. And then you can customize from there. So just getting people, the first step is to name what they actually want to be known for. What is the work that you want to hang your hat on and how do you talk about it? And most people way overcomplicate it because we're experts at what we do. And then the curse of knowledge blocks them from being able to say it in a simple sentence.
Jürgen:
00:20:09
yeah. So what's, what's your process for helping people to kind of get to that point of a simple statement that is clear and, and um, a potential client? Will really get and understand and more importantly, kind of resonate with to the point that they might say that's exactly what I need. Let's talk more.
Jay Melone:
00:20:37
So I think there's. There's three core sets of activities that I'll do with someone to get them out of their heads and onto paper or digital paper, what they're, what they actually do. So one is kind of going through a set of conversations that starts with the work that they're really good at doing, the work that they love doing, the work that the world needs more of. And from there, really getting clear on the one thing that they, what I say is like, If there was one set of work that you did that you'd love, just having an engine that sent all of your ideal clients to, to buy that thing over and over again, that the work that you could do on repeat, what would that be? And there's a set of questions I'll ask them to get there. And most times, first time they're vague and often few degrees, like Like off center, but once we nail that set of work, then we can dive into great now Who's the person that needs that work the most there they'll get caught up in people that influence the conversation But don't ultimately buy it and so they have to figure out a way To bring those influencers in, but ultimately have them become champions of their work to the person who buys it. If you, if you sell to the person that like buys it and goes through the whole experience, even better. And then the third thing is just to get really clear of voice of that customer. So like, what's the experience they're going through and the problems that they have that that work solves for them. Those three things to combined create a really clear picture and it's. The most amazing part is I didn't realize how much people needed help with that part. I wanted to just get into the wedge offer stuff. I just assumed at first for the first months of my work, I was like, cool. Let's, you know, tell me what work you do and then we'll get into the wedge offers. And I saw people stumble and all over the place. And without judgment, I'd say like, how long have you been doing this? 10 years, 15 years. And, and in my head, I'm like, Yeah, that, that resonates. I was building new haircut for 10 years and I couldn't describe in a sentence what I did classic, like my mom had no idea what I did for 10, 15 years. And so to be able to like name what you do and who it's for and how it helps them is such clarity that most people are lacking and without that clarity, you can't build any sort of engines or offers off of that thing
Jürgen:
00:22:57
Yeah, that's, um, that's certainly a big problem. And, um, as a podcast host, it's often amazing to me when I say, tell me about your business or tell me what you do. And, and the answer is quite vague. Yeah, or very long. That's right. Yeah. Um, so talk to us a little bit more about kind of how, how do we do this in a way that doesn't lead us back into that idea of burnout and brings in repeat revenue, ongoing revenue, so that we're in a position to slowly scale up and get to that point Thank you. Well, Building that big flywheel that, that you described.
Jay Melone:
00:24:00
Well, I think people burn out for a lot of different reasons. Um, for me, it was a combination of two things. One is, I never really felt confident in what my offer actually was. So exactly as you and I are saying, I couldn't name what I did. And that lacking confidence is after years of compounding, of showing up to calls and not really feeling certain about Am I talking to the right person? Can I actually truly help them? Do I even know what I'm doing? It's beyond imposter syndrome. It's just total sort of like a muddled business that you built for yourself. Um, and for me, what happened was because of that lacking confidence and unclear offer. And on top of it, of not really enjoying the sales process that just compounded into like pretty severe burnout for myself. But what I learned is that like, I was also the guy, it's very strange what I'm doing for a living these days that I talk about sales engines and helping people uncomplicate their offers and wedge offers that like attract and convert dream clients. Because that was my biggest struggle for the longest time and I did not identify at all as someone that knew how to sell. But now that I have a system and an offer and a way of working that I know works, it no longer feels like selling at all. It truly feels like, not only does it feel, I'm very confident that I can help the people I work with, but it's, it flows so clearly. This is what it is, this is how it works, this is how much it costs, this is how much time it's going to take you, and these are the three things you're going to get by the end of it. There is no, let me talk to my partner about it, I need to like, bring someone else in to evaluate this, can you send us references? It's such a clear offer that people say like, I need this, I want it, or I need this, not right now, or I can't afford it. It's just very clear cut, and then those are different objections that you can work through. But what I've learned is that like, That has cleared the decks for me to be able to show up and sell. So now on average, I'm doing about 10 sales calls a day, which in the past that would have completely wreaked havoc on my life, my personal life, everything. And instead, I can't say that I love being on 10 calls a day. But when 30 percent 40 percent of the people are buying that thing for me and it feels effortless in a sense, and I can see people saying like, this is what I've needed. That does give me the wind in the sails to be able to do that
Jürgen:
00:26:34
You know, um, 30 or 40 percent, that's a pretty impressive, um, wind rate from sales calls. And I imagine having that sort of success rate overcomes, because what, what people hate most about sales calls is rejection, right? And you do 10 sales calls a day for a week, and basically get zero business out of it, well that's um, 50 or maybe more rejections. And that sort of weighs on your confidence and it's no fun, obviously. If on the other hand you're getting 30 to 40 percent success, then it all of a sudden becomes fun. And you look forward to the next call because you know, there's a, there's a reasonable chance that the person will buy. And more importantly, the other part of that equation, of course, is what you've said before is having the confidence in what your offer is, that it's a clear offer, that it's going to help that person. And part of that is knowing who. You're helping who the ideal client is. So you're talking to the right people. You're not calling somebody up who they're not the right client. So, um, first of all, it's, um, it's highly likely they'll say no, cause they're not the right client. And even if they do say yes, if for some reason you managed to convince them, you've got this nagging feeling, even though it might be unconscious that you've just sold something to the wrong person, it's not going to help them.
Jay Melone:
00:28:15
Right. Yeah. And you know, like I'm not always selling someone something that costs money. So what I, what I appreciate about having a little ecosystem or flywheel is that when people are too early, or when people need help, but you know, they're not quite ready, or the budget's not quite there, even though my services don't cost a lot of money these quite yet these days, I have offers to bring them through the process and give them value, which is exactly the point of a wedge offer. Sometimes it's to make a little bit of money. Oftentimes, the biggest thing that you can do is demonstrate your expertise and your value and earn the trust of that person. Without sort of like the, the typical, like the lead magnet, the trip wire that people like consume a downloadable PDF and it really never gets them anywhere. So that 30, 40 to 40 percent to be totally transparent. Sometimes that is me sending people to my masterclass, which is a free thing that I invite people to once they're the right fit and they're approved. But there's always this, that those 30 percent are. I'm always talking to the right person and I'm, and 30 percent of the case I'm able to direct them to something that I know can help them. And it reminds me of this thing that a friend just shared with me that she picked up while listening to a podcast. There was a guy that went on there and talked about with or without you energy. And that is the way I feel about my business and what I would love to be a result. It would be hard to put this into a metric, but the result I'd love my clients to have is with or without you. Energy is this is going to happen with or without you. So I'm going to do this thing. It's going to help a lot of people you can be in, or you can be out, but I feel so confident that it's going to be helpful. And I've priced it in a way that you're going to get a hundred X value. That doesn't feel like selling it all to me. That feels like. I don't want to be so like pompous to say like I'm doing people a favor because I'm making a living and I'm getting paid for it, but it feels, it feels really good. And that is what I want people to feel by having an
Jürgen:
00:30:22
Hmm. Yeah. That's, that's a powerful. Motivator as well, isn't it? If you, you know, you're helping people in that way, one of the thoughts I had there as you were describing that is there's a lot of people that have some really good products or services and you talked earlier about giving away intellectual property that perhaps, um, is better kept for the process. You actually work with people and giving them value in different ways. Um, how do, how do we. Well, how in your process do you decide what's the value to attribute to that particular product or service and how do I price that? in a way that's fair value for the customer, but at the same time is not undervaluing your intellectual property, your know how, your time that you spend on working with that client.
Jay Melone:
00:31:28
Yeah, so i'll say this with the back with the the backdrop that pricing strategy is part of offer strategy There are people that are pricing strategists that are in my network, that this is all that they do. And I, I'm constantly learning from them, but I, this is great timing of your question. Cause I'm, I'm just hitting publish on my, my newsletter this week. And the, the topic is when should I make my offer free versus paid? Cause it's a question I get a lot. And so. It kind of depends on what your business needs and then the format that the work takes on. So if your business needs revenue, you probably should not prioritize free. You probably should not prioritize productized offers for the reasons I mentioned earlier. If you need cash coming in, those scoped offers are great because they'll be easy to buy, but they will be a. And they'll be affordable enough, but because you'll package them so tightly, so something that you could do in one week, two weeks, three weeks or so, you start to get into months or more, it becomes harder to buy. So I try to tell people to like shrink it as much as you can. Uh, the value that you wind up delivering within those sets of work and the ROI that you get. Your client gets and how quickly you're able to fulfill it and the cash that you're making from that can fill your pipeline can keep you fed for months at a time and you're not giving away anything because you're there with the client. You can talk them through it so. Those are the times that you probably should price something and you should probably hand deliver it in a, in a small fashion when you're in a different mode, when you're brand building, when you're building domain expertise, when you want people spreading the word for you, I had, I went to Juergens thing, I used Juergens tool, you have to use it when that's what you're going for free can be powerful because price Is an objection price is a filter and you can open it up more But where people tend to make the mistake is that they give away free things that are one offs So you go and do a a week's worth of discovery for a single client you make it free They use it they hire you they never hire you but you made it free and that's kind of like throwaway You might be able to reverse engineer it and turn it into a thing but if you're chasing lots of different things like that and trying to To package it into a thing you offer to many people, you're probably going to be chasing your tail. So it's a, it's kind of a combination on like, what is your business need? Do you need, do you need to build your brand or do you need to bring cash in? The, like the third outlier there is when people are at a different stage. Where they're looking to scale themselves. So those are the people that will say to me Jay I'm kind of getting buried by the work I'm saying no to people that I want to be helping and I can't really make time for them or they're too early That's a great moment to look at productized offers and at that point where cash isn't really a concern you can pack a ton of value into a course or something that's low ticket and What I like my metric for a good offer is it should be a price that feels uncomfortable to you So you should it's not about cheapening your work though. There's a difference. There's a different mindset there It's about I put so much value into this thing Not I made it longer or bigger because that's just complicating things But I put so much value into this thing for such a great price that people would feel stupid saying no to it That's kind of my metric for how to, how to price a priced offer.
Jürgen:
00:35:07
so it's, uh, yeah, it's obviously a case by case situation and, um, Very hard to put a formula to. All
Jay Melone:
00:35:21
Yeah, it's true. I tried to break it down in this week's newsletter. We'll see
Jürgen:
00:35:25
right,
Jay Melone:
00:35:25
we'll see what the response
Jürgen:
00:35:26
we'll link to that in the show notes, as well as all the other links that we'll have. But this is a fantastic conversation. I'm just aware of the time and I think it's a good point now to move on to the buzz, which is our innovation round. It's the same five questions that I ask of every guest. And the idea is you'll give us some really insightful answers that'll inspire the listener to go and do something actionable today to really move ahead in whatever they're aiming to do. Alright, what's the number one thing anyone needs to do to be more innovative?
Jay Melone:
00:36:08
Assume that you don't have the answers.
Jürgen:
00:36:10
Assume that you have the answers. Oh,
Jay Melone:
00:36:15
No, assume that you don't
Jürgen:
00:36:16
Yeah, I missed that. Sorry, the audio is breaking up a little bit. Um, assume that you don't have the answers. That's right. So then, then you, um, need to make the answers or find the answers. Hmm. Alright, what's the best thing you've done to develop new ideas?
Jay Melone:
00:36:37
Prototypes. Um, putting pen to paper and building my ideas and putting them in front of my customers always gives me insights that I would have never seen coming. Our blind spots are the things that keep us having from a good product to something that
Jürgen:
00:36:49
Yeah, wonderful. So, and, and we've talked in great depth about productizing services. So, yeah, it's great.
Jay Melone:
00:37:00
Yeah, those are prototypes very much.
Jürgen:
00:37:02
All right. Now, do you have a favorite resource you use most often?
Jay Melone:
00:37:09
um, my newest favorite is a tool called condo. Um, it allows me to do all of the LinkedIn DMS outside of the platform itself with lots of other bells and whistles that the, the standard LinkedIn inbox does not
Jürgen:
00:37:24
So, um, that's a plugin for LinkedIn, is it? Or a
Jay Melone:
00:37:31
It is a third party tool. That is, um, it's a
Jürgen:
00:37:35
Well, I have to check that out. I'm not familiar with that.
Jay Melone:
00:37:40
saves me a lot of time because I really LinkedIn is a, can be a black hole. So the moment you go in there to check messages, you'll find yourself responding to comments that you really shouldn't be
Jürgen:
00:37:49
Sounds like a really valuable tool. Okay. Um, what's the best way to keep a client on track?
Jay Melone:
00:38:05
buzz around quick answers. Best way to keep a client on track. Um, I like to give people homework with timelines. So all of my work is shrunk into three weeks and I give them clear, actionable. Um, milestones when their work has to be done, when we have to meet and when they have to schedule their next session with me, what I've learned is that most business owners. Are missing having a boss in some way, tiny shape. They just want someone once in a while to tell them what to do. And so I try to be that person with them because there's enough coaches that answer questions with questions. So I try to be kind of like on people's
Jürgen:
00:38:40
Yeah. Interesting. Most people are longing for the boss. Yeah. Often they take that role themselves and they, um, they're the worst boss possible. All right. Final question of the buzz round. What's the number one thing anyone can do to differentiate themselves?
Jay Melone:
00:39:03
Well, I think we. Underestimate how world, how, how, how big the world is. And so I always hear that my market is saturated, but literally almost every market is saturated that like net new Greenfield innovation is 0. 001%, something like this. So assume that your market is saturated, and then remember that you have your own experiences and frameworks and ways of solving those, those problems and your own stories that will resonate with the person that you most want to work with anyway,
Jürgen:
00:39:33
Yeah. So it's a, it's a case of really making sure you understand who you can help and who you will resonate with, who needs that, and who's. the ideal client. Excellent. Well, thanks for getting us through the buzz round, Jay. And also thanks for the conversation today. It's been fabulous. Now, where can people find out more about you, about the work you do at, um, Profit Letter and, and also maybe get in touch and say, thanks for what you shared today.
Jay Melone:
00:40:10
Yeah, of course. I'm at profit ladder. net and I do spend a good chunk of time
Jürgen:
00:40:17
Okay. All right. And we'll, we'll have those links in the show notes and also a link to that, um, upcoming post. It'll probably be published by the time this Episode is to, um, the pricing. How do you price your product? Excellent. So finally, Jay, what action would you like our listener to take out of a conversation today?
Jay Melone:
00:40:45
Um, go and figure out what you do, like make it really clear about what the work is that you do and, you know, then go and share that with some of your target clients and see if they understand what it is that you actually are trying to, to sell them and, and do for them as a, as a service. It's probably less clear than you think it
Jürgen:
00:41:06
um, I love that. Go share it with some target clients because then you'll get, or what does that mean? Or how does that look? Or I don't understand that or whatever feedback you might get or whatever questions you might get and then reflect on those and and refine it, right?
Jay Melone:
00:41:27
The courage to ask those tough questions. You probably don't want to hear the initial, the initial answers, but you'd probably rather hear that than just to be on that hamster wheel of selling stuff that nobody
Jürgen:
00:41:37
Excellent. Well, great call to action and thanks so much for sharing your time and your insights with us so generously today, Jay. I've enjoyed this immensely and really learned a lot about, um, that concept of building the flywheel with a lot of small, smaller flywheels that are much easier to get started, but then, um, have their own momentum that can drive that bigger flywheel, which then has a huge momentum once it gets going. So I love the flywheel concept, obviously. Um, we talk a lot about that here. Um, thanks so much and all the best for the future. Please do stay in touch.
Jay Melone:
00:42:19
Thanks Juergen.
Jürgen:
00:42:21
Thanks for listening. We'd love you to leave a review on this episode. It will help us to make the podcast better for you. Simply go to lovethepodcast. com forward slash InnovaBuzz and pick your preferred platform. Remember to visit innovabiz. co forward slash Flywheel and secure your membership to the exclusive Flywheel Nation community, where you will enjoy direct access to our incredible podcast guests, engaging meaningful conversations and participate in connection events designed to elevate your business journey. Don't miss out. Join Flywheel Nation today. Tune in again to the next episodes of the InnovaBuzz podcast where we've got yet more fantastic guests lined up. Until next time, I'm Jürgen Strauss from InnovaBiz. Remember, be awesome and keep innovating.
00:00:08
Welcome to the InnovaBuzz podcast, where our job is to help you build visibility, professional credibility, and connection with your ideal client by putting the human at the center of innovative marketing, so you can build and strengthen an engaging, enduring relationship with your ideal clients. I'm Juergen Strauss from InnovaBiz, and I'm honored that you're here with me. If you haven't yet joined our wonderful Flywheel Nation community, go to flywheelnation. com and join in the podcast conversations. Do subscribe to the show and also leave a review, because it helps others find us. Let's get into today's masterclass on this Innoverbuzz podcast. Hi, I'm your host, Juergen Strauss from InnovaBiz, and I'm really thrilled to welcome to the InnovaBuzz podcast today from New Jersey in the USA, Jay Malone, who's the founder of Profit Ladder. Jay is known as the productized services guy and specializes in helping consultants and coaches. Turn their premium high touch services into scalable automated offers that attract their ideal clients and boost their profits with a background in tech and years of experience running his own consulting business. Jay has transformed the way small business owners approach sales and growth. Welcome to the another buzz podcast. Jay, it's a real privilege to have you as my guest.
Jay Melone:
00:01:51
Thanks,
Jürgen:
00:01:51
Now I'm excited to delve into our conversation today, your journey from. Being burnt out to building a business that works for you is such a compelling story. And I'm sure something that most entrepreneurs can resonate with in one form or another. So can you share more about what inspired you to create Profit Ladder and the impact you hope to make today?
Jay Melone:
00:02:17
Yeah. So, uh, as you mentioned, I ran a technology consulting business for, from 2010 to, well, it still exists if I'm being honest, but I kind of parked it in late 2023. And you could say that that business was a prototype, a 15 year prototype of me figuring out how to be a business owner. And so, um, right out of the gate, I'll tell people that are struggling, that they haven't figured it all out after a year or a couple of years in business. These things take time. And so I, I built my business. It was, it's called new haircut and we started as a web design firm. That's where the name came from. We were often building new websites and new branding new. So like new look and new, new feel. And eventually we progressed into more of a strategy consulting business. So we would get hired after, uh, after enough time in the market, we got good enough to get hired by companies like Google, Amazon, Ford, Home Depot, MailChimp. Really great brands. And we would get hired to go in there and tell them, basically like help them make the right bets. So technologists and marketers and product people would hire us to come in and take a look at their roadmap and their customers and do some research and build some prototypes and help them validate that the direction they were going in was the right one. And if not have them pivot before they spent millions of dollars and years of people's time and effort to build the wrong thing. And so those programs that we would run were very intense. They were six months, 12 months long. Uh, at a point they cost somewhere upwards of a hundred to 200, 000 or more. And so all of those things combined, you're running long programs. It's not cheap. And I'm selling often into executives at large companies. All of those things, there's a ton of friction in the sales process. Of getting in front of my buyers of convincing them. Why me? I'm often going against the McKinsey's and the IDEOs and the Deloitte's of the world. And here I am this little 30 person company called new haircut, funny name. So I had to convince them. And my background was in software development. So I was. I was sorry for the, for the cursing. It's just what comes to mind. I was a pig and shit sitting in a cubicle during my corporate days with headphones on writing code. I loved it. I love the creativity of, of writing code that would solve business problems. And so when I started a business, I imagine that that's what work would look like. I would still be able to kind of like, just tune the world out, build, build stuff, work on the website and that. Customers would line up at the door and the rude awakening after the first, even the couple of months, I was like, Oh, that's not how it works. Uh, and so like I had to learn sales on the fly, marketing, sales, all the things, um, a great set of skills to learn. As a, as a business owner and very overwhelming and super challenging. Um, especially because I have like a heavy introverted side. So sales calls really exhausted me and that long sales grind, which was 12, 18 months long, two years long of like constantly chasing eventually, as you, as you said, it really did burn me out. So that went on for the better part of a decade and what I started to ask myself is, I wonder what this would look like if I could make my job of selling easier and in doing so get my tools and resources and sort of expertise of myself and the team in my customers hands with a lot less friction, a lot less time wasted and. It's just in general, make the process easier and better. So I started to repackage the work that I did into these just smaller things, which today I call wedge offers. And it, it worked. The short answer is it worked and it worked really well. It worked so well that I got sort of buried in the work that I did. And in late 2023, having like spent the next few, those last few years building all of these offers and connecting them all into this ecosystem, which I would call a flywheel today. I decided that this has been great. And I think I'm in a stage where I want to take my systems and bring it to other. Business owners that are probably struggling to also build their own business. And that, that sort of that 15 year experience and that light bulb moment to say, like, I want to take this and apply it in a different way was the start of profit letter.
Jürgen:
00:06:58
Fascinating story. I'm curious. You mentioned the idea of wedge products and then everything coming together as, as a flywheel. So first of all, um, what exactly is this idea of a productized service? And, and then explain to us this idea of wedge office and everything coming together as a system.
Jay Melone:
00:07:25
Yeah. So flywheel, I read a book called by James Collins. I think it's called turning the flywheel. And a flywheel is just a mechanical engineering concept. It's a really large wheel that in and of itself is hard to, to begin spinning because it's so big and so heavy and it requires like a lot of energy to get that thing spinning. But once it is spinning, what it does is it builds up rotational energy. And once that's going, the whole kind of system is just, it's almost like momentum takes care of itself. And I really like that concept because in the work that we do as like consultants and coaches in particular, there's this body of work, which I call your signature offer. It tends to be the more expensive thing that you offer. It requires, in most cases, it requires a lot of your time. It requires your client's time and their team's time. Sometimes multiple people have to agree that this is what they need and this is how it's going to work. And so we use all of these tools to get that wheel spinning, to get it sold and to get it started. There's a lot of coordinating, there's a lot of sign offs, there's a lot of payment, and that is hard to get going in and of itself. And so what I noticed, what I was doing was I was writing blogs and sending emails and doing a little bit of social posts. And then what I expected was that people would come from that sort of like real top of funnel of just getting familiar with me and my brand and the problems I solved. And getting on a sales call with me and buying, spending a hundred thousand dollars with me. And that's a huge leap to assume people will go through. So instead, as I, as I think about it as a flywheel, if instead the way a flywheel works is you have smaller wheels that you can apply smaller amounts of energy to. And as they start to spin, they start to put more rotational energy into the big flywheel. So this is basically the concept that I brought into my work. And to be honest, I stole what works from the SAS industry. The SAS industry has freemium offers. They have trial periods and we love it. We're like, we look at a tool, we look at a platform. We look at a, uh, um, an app that we find. And we always choose the free trial if there's an option there because we want to, we want to see, we want to, we want to get familiar with it. But for whatever reason, the service industry doesn't really do a great job of that. We do free work, we give away IP and intellectual capital that we probably should keep to do in the work itself. And so the wedge offer is really just that. That really well packaged taste of what it will be like to work with you where a lot of people get it wrong. There's two areas. One is they jump into productizing everything overnight. So those are the people that build online courses. They take 20 years of experience. They launch a course. They only really had a couple hundred followers on LinkedIn or a few people on an email list, and they announced it out into the world expecting the doors to get knocked down and it's crickets. And the problem is they just, they didn't build, they didn't build in public. They didn't let people know what they were working on. They didn't draw people in. They didn't build the right thing that solved the right problem. And they probably over engineered it without enough experience of doing that work in a way that other people could use their tools without them holding their hand all the way through it. So I do it a little bit differently, and that's why I talk about flywheels. I build my concept is a reverse flywheel. So I help people take the signature work that they do and chunk it down into what I call a scoped offer. And that's really just a module or a smaller problem or a thing you do over and over again that people are like, wow, that was, that was great, right? That's what we're going for. We're going for. high value, easy to buy and solves an important problem that gives them the perception of what it's going to be like to work with you in your bigger ticket thing.
Jürgen:
00:11:29
So that's, that's the wedge, as you call it, the wedge product.
Jay Melone:
00:11:35
Yeah. So wedge offers, I kind of split into two. I have their scoped offers, which is just you doing a smaller bit of the work that you do in your signature offer. And then a productized offer is more of that sort of do it yourself digital version of something that you can take and package from the work that you're doing over and over and put it into your customer's hands with less and less of your direct involvement in the process. That's where courses can be really powerful, but not if you jump the gun and do that right out of the gate.
Jürgen:
00:12:05
All right. Well, um, you mentioned courses, so, and, and that's like, I've seen it dry up a little bit over the past maybe two years, but before that courses were the big thing and everybody should be doing courses and it's the, it's the way of the future. Um, what, what do you think is. The proper way to kind of test that out and try that out like you, you mentioned the idea of the SAS product where as a consumer, we get to try something out for say a week or a month and then decide whether we like it and whether we want to pay for it for a longer period, how, how can somebody turn that concept around if they've got a intellectual property Let's say, and they want to turn that into a course. How can they trial that in a small manner before they go all in and write this course with 50 modules that's going to take a year to record all the videos and write the content and do the sales process and everything?
Jay Melone:
00:13:23
So, it's actually, it's easier once you understand it, it's a lot more easier and obvious. So when you begin with a scope, so first of all, most people, their initial problem that they have, especially in the early years is cashflow. They just don't have enough predictable revenue coming in. They've got a lot of people in their pipeline that don't belong there. They're just kind of kicking the tires, wasting their time, wasting your time. And so your revenue, you go through fits and spurts, uh, you get those feast or famine cycles where you're selling, selling, selling, and then doing the work and then you don't sell. So you got to go back and still sell some more. And so there's no like consistent inbound of leads that you can actually generate money from. So if at that stage you say, Hey, I want to build a course because I think that's going to fix my revenue issue, my revenue problem, that's a really bad idea because unless you have. Lots and lots of followers who are engaged and supporting your work and really kind of like Engaged and they're fans of what you're doing. You're not going to get enough sales Especially if you run a business that has more than just yourself a course like that You know most courses sell for in the US say average 100 to 300 dollars So you'd have to sell hundreds of courses on a monthly basis or so, you know, like a good number of courses on a recurring basis. And that's probably not going to happen if you've got a tiny little list that's unengaged. And then, like I mentioned earlier, the other problem is that there's a level of mastery. So like when you, when you and I do what we do for a living, we're really good at using our frameworks and asking questions and then kind of going off and doing work and meeting back with our clients. And we're directly involved in the success that our clients have. Because we know what to ask the right order in which to do it, where we're going to run into issues where we have to like, uh, like engage our clients to show up with a set of things that they've accomplished before our working sessions together. All of that is orchestrated by you. You're sort of that magician. When you give that in a course that's pre packaged that maybe has videos of you, there is an element that's missing from that. And until you've taught it at a way that people can understand it and use it without you in the room with them, that's really hard for people to have success with. And then, so not only is, do you not have a big audience buying the course, but the people that do buy it don't really get the results. And that's when people say like, I tried a course, it didn't work. So. The better way to do it. And on top of it, you mentioned a real, another big problem, which is dedicating all the additional time to record and capture all of those assets. So the way I like to do it differently in reverse is to turn that into a scoped offer, do the work, do it with your clients, do it in small chunks, sell it in ways that is easy for you to bring money in on a recurring basis. So things that you can charge a thousand bucks, 2000 bucks, 5, 000 bucks for things that are easier, smaller packages that are easier to get a yes on. And they are components of your sort of like grand signature offer that you have. As you do that work over and over with individual clients. You get better, your confidence gets better, your techniques get better. You're also learning how to answer questions. You're providing examples because everybody gets stuck at this one part in your framework that no one can quite figure out unless you give them a really good example. And now you've figured out the example that works. You create homework for them so when you get into the session it works for them. Then you've doubled down and created a template so that they can do that homework more successfully. All of that stuff. Is all of the material that eventually goes into your course. So instead of just ad hoc creating all that stuff so that you can build a course, use it to get better and better and optimize the work that you're actually doing. And then once you have a good chunk of it and you're really clear on what that course should be about, and you've got a really good positioning and you know who the ideal client is for it. Now it's a much better time because you've got cash coming in and you have the expertise and all the assets. To then turn all of that stuff
Jürgen:
00:17:39
So it's kind of building it, but building it in a systematic way. One of the things I'm curious about, you mentioned the signature product and I, I think a lot of businesses really struggle with that idea of what is their signature product or signature service and, and then how do you, um, chunk out those. Smaller components of that, that, that would be an easy entry or that wedge product as you call it. How do you work with people to define that concept of the signature product and then start to break it down into smaller components?
Jay Melone:
00:18:24
Yeah. When I ask people to name what they do, that's you hit on like the very, the most fundamental core business problem that I think I don't hear enough people talking about. We talk about marketing problems and fix the website and build your audience. Uh, you know, go on podcasts. Like all of those things are very helpful for audience building, but if at the center you don't have an offer that you can really get behind, a lot of the other things are going to sort of crumble underneath that. So that's exactly, that's a great question because when I ask people to describe their work, they'll, they'll name skills that they have. Um, it's almost like they paint a resume for me. And I hear some people say like, you know, Jay, I don't want to package anything because I don't want to be pigeonholed to only do that thing. And I'm like, that's fine. I, I understand that. And The point of you having an offer and a service is to be able to sell it and do it. And if all of your clients are doing is coming and leaving because they don't get what you do, then you never have a chance to do that package, get really good at it and then customize it as much as you need and feel comfortable doing. But it's a start. It's a place to begin the conversation, not the thing that you will, you'll not be on an assembly line, only doing that exact formula. Every time there'll always be customization and tailoring, but The right signature offer brings the right people to you. And then you can customize from there. So just getting people, the first step is to name what they actually want to be known for. What is the work that you want to hang your hat on and how do you talk about it? And most people way overcomplicate it because we're experts at what we do. And then the curse of knowledge blocks them from being able to say it in a simple sentence.
Jürgen:
00:20:09
yeah. So what's, what's your process for helping people to kind of get to that point of a simple statement that is clear and, and um, a potential client? Will really get and understand and more importantly, kind of resonate with to the point that they might say that's exactly what I need. Let's talk more.
Jay Melone:
00:20:37
So I think there's. There's three core sets of activities that I'll do with someone to get them out of their heads and onto paper or digital paper, what they're, what they actually do. So one is kind of going through a set of conversations that starts with the work that they're really good at doing, the work that they love doing, the work that the world needs more of. And from there, really getting clear on the one thing that they, what I say is like, If there was one set of work that you did that you'd love, just having an engine that sent all of your ideal clients to, to buy that thing over and over again, that the work that you could do on repeat, what would that be? And there's a set of questions I'll ask them to get there. And most times, first time they're vague and often few degrees, like Like off center, but once we nail that set of work, then we can dive into great now Who's the person that needs that work the most there they'll get caught up in people that influence the conversation But don't ultimately buy it and so they have to figure out a way To bring those influencers in, but ultimately have them become champions of their work to the person who buys it. If you, if you sell to the person that like buys it and goes through the whole experience, even better. And then the third thing is just to get really clear of voice of that customer. So like, what's the experience they're going through and the problems that they have that that work solves for them. Those three things to combined create a really clear picture and it's. The most amazing part is I didn't realize how much people needed help with that part. I wanted to just get into the wedge offer stuff. I just assumed at first for the first months of my work, I was like, cool. Let's, you know, tell me what work you do and then we'll get into the wedge offers. And I saw people stumble and all over the place. And without judgment, I'd say like, how long have you been doing this? 10 years, 15 years. And, and in my head, I'm like, Yeah, that, that resonates. I was building new haircut for 10 years and I couldn't describe in a sentence what I did classic, like my mom had no idea what I did for 10, 15 years. And so to be able to like name what you do and who it's for and how it helps them is such clarity that most people are lacking and without that clarity, you can't build any sort of engines or offers off of that thing
Jürgen:
00:22:57
Yeah, that's, um, that's certainly a big problem. And, um, as a podcast host, it's often amazing to me when I say, tell me about your business or tell me what you do. And, and the answer is quite vague. Yeah, or very long. That's right. Yeah. Um, so talk to us a little bit more about kind of how, how do we do this in a way that doesn't lead us back into that idea of burnout and brings in repeat revenue, ongoing revenue, so that we're in a position to slowly scale up and get to that point Thank you. Well, Building that big flywheel that, that you described.
Jay Melone:
00:24:00
Well, I think people burn out for a lot of different reasons. Um, for me, it was a combination of two things. One is, I never really felt confident in what my offer actually was. So exactly as you and I are saying, I couldn't name what I did. And that lacking confidence is after years of compounding, of showing up to calls and not really feeling certain about Am I talking to the right person? Can I actually truly help them? Do I even know what I'm doing? It's beyond imposter syndrome. It's just total sort of like a muddled business that you built for yourself. Um, and for me, what happened was because of that lacking confidence and unclear offer. And on top of it, of not really enjoying the sales process that just compounded into like pretty severe burnout for myself. But what I learned is that like, I was also the guy, it's very strange what I'm doing for a living these days that I talk about sales engines and helping people uncomplicate their offers and wedge offers that like attract and convert dream clients. Because that was my biggest struggle for the longest time and I did not identify at all as someone that knew how to sell. But now that I have a system and an offer and a way of working that I know works, it no longer feels like selling at all. It truly feels like, not only does it feel, I'm very confident that I can help the people I work with, but it's, it flows so clearly. This is what it is, this is how it works, this is how much it costs, this is how much time it's going to take you, and these are the three things you're going to get by the end of it. There is no, let me talk to my partner about it, I need to like, bring someone else in to evaluate this, can you send us references? It's such a clear offer that people say like, I need this, I want it, or I need this, not right now, or I can't afford it. It's just very clear cut, and then those are different objections that you can work through. But what I've learned is that like, That has cleared the decks for me to be able to show up and sell. So now on average, I'm doing about 10 sales calls a day, which in the past that would have completely wreaked havoc on my life, my personal life, everything. And instead, I can't say that I love being on 10 calls a day. But when 30 percent 40 percent of the people are buying that thing for me and it feels effortless in a sense, and I can see people saying like, this is what I've needed. That does give me the wind in the sails to be able to do that
Jürgen:
00:26:34
You know, um, 30 or 40 percent, that's a pretty impressive, um, wind rate from sales calls. And I imagine having that sort of success rate overcomes, because what, what people hate most about sales calls is rejection, right? And you do 10 sales calls a day for a week, and basically get zero business out of it, well that's um, 50 or maybe more rejections. And that sort of weighs on your confidence and it's no fun, obviously. If on the other hand you're getting 30 to 40 percent success, then it all of a sudden becomes fun. And you look forward to the next call because you know, there's a, there's a reasonable chance that the person will buy. And more importantly, the other part of that equation, of course, is what you've said before is having the confidence in what your offer is, that it's a clear offer, that it's going to help that person. And part of that is knowing who. You're helping who the ideal client is. So you're talking to the right people. You're not calling somebody up who they're not the right client. So, um, first of all, it's, um, it's highly likely they'll say no, cause they're not the right client. And even if they do say yes, if for some reason you managed to convince them, you've got this nagging feeling, even though it might be unconscious that you've just sold something to the wrong person, it's not going to help them.
Jay Melone:
00:28:15
Right. Yeah. And you know, like I'm not always selling someone something that costs money. So what I, what I appreciate about having a little ecosystem or flywheel is that when people are too early, or when people need help, but you know, they're not quite ready, or the budget's not quite there, even though my services don't cost a lot of money these quite yet these days, I have offers to bring them through the process and give them value, which is exactly the point of a wedge offer. Sometimes it's to make a little bit of money. Oftentimes, the biggest thing that you can do is demonstrate your expertise and your value and earn the trust of that person. Without sort of like the, the typical, like the lead magnet, the trip wire that people like consume a downloadable PDF and it really never gets them anywhere. So that 30, 40 to 40 percent to be totally transparent. Sometimes that is me sending people to my masterclass, which is a free thing that I invite people to once they're the right fit and they're approved. But there's always this, that those 30 percent are. I'm always talking to the right person and I'm, and 30 percent of the case I'm able to direct them to something that I know can help them. And it reminds me of this thing that a friend just shared with me that she picked up while listening to a podcast. There was a guy that went on there and talked about with or without you energy. And that is the way I feel about my business and what I would love to be a result. It would be hard to put this into a metric, but the result I'd love my clients to have is with or without you. Energy is this is going to happen with or without you. So I'm going to do this thing. It's going to help a lot of people you can be in, or you can be out, but I feel so confident that it's going to be helpful. And I've priced it in a way that you're going to get a hundred X value. That doesn't feel like selling it all to me. That feels like. I don't want to be so like pompous to say like I'm doing people a favor because I'm making a living and I'm getting paid for it, but it feels, it feels really good. And that is what I want people to feel by having an
Jürgen:
00:30:22
Hmm. Yeah. That's, that's a powerful. Motivator as well, isn't it? If you, you know, you're helping people in that way, one of the thoughts I had there as you were describing that is there's a lot of people that have some really good products or services and you talked earlier about giving away intellectual property that perhaps, um, is better kept for the process. You actually work with people and giving them value in different ways. Um, how do, how do we. Well, how in your process do you decide what's the value to attribute to that particular product or service and how do I price that? in a way that's fair value for the customer, but at the same time is not undervaluing your intellectual property, your know how, your time that you spend on working with that client.
Jay Melone:
00:31:28
Yeah, so i'll say this with the back with the the backdrop that pricing strategy is part of offer strategy There are people that are pricing strategists that are in my network, that this is all that they do. And I, I'm constantly learning from them, but I, this is great timing of your question. Cause I'm, I'm just hitting publish on my, my newsletter this week. And the, the topic is when should I make my offer free versus paid? Cause it's a question I get a lot. And so. It kind of depends on what your business needs and then the format that the work takes on. So if your business needs revenue, you probably should not prioritize free. You probably should not prioritize productized offers for the reasons I mentioned earlier. If you need cash coming in, those scoped offers are great because they'll be easy to buy, but they will be a. And they'll be affordable enough, but because you'll package them so tightly, so something that you could do in one week, two weeks, three weeks or so, you start to get into months or more, it becomes harder to buy. So I try to tell people to like shrink it as much as you can. Uh, the value that you wind up delivering within those sets of work and the ROI that you get. Your client gets and how quickly you're able to fulfill it and the cash that you're making from that can fill your pipeline can keep you fed for months at a time and you're not giving away anything because you're there with the client. You can talk them through it so. Those are the times that you probably should price something and you should probably hand deliver it in a, in a small fashion when you're in a different mode, when you're brand building, when you're building domain expertise, when you want people spreading the word for you, I had, I went to Juergens thing, I used Juergens tool, you have to use it when that's what you're going for free can be powerful because price Is an objection price is a filter and you can open it up more But where people tend to make the mistake is that they give away free things that are one offs So you go and do a a week's worth of discovery for a single client you make it free They use it they hire you they never hire you but you made it free and that's kind of like throwaway You might be able to reverse engineer it and turn it into a thing but if you're chasing lots of different things like that and trying to To package it into a thing you offer to many people, you're probably going to be chasing your tail. So it's a, it's kind of a combination on like, what is your business need? Do you need, do you need to build your brand or do you need to bring cash in? The, like the third outlier there is when people are at a different stage. Where they're looking to scale themselves. So those are the people that will say to me Jay I'm kind of getting buried by the work I'm saying no to people that I want to be helping and I can't really make time for them or they're too early That's a great moment to look at productized offers and at that point where cash isn't really a concern you can pack a ton of value into a course or something that's low ticket and What I like my metric for a good offer is it should be a price that feels uncomfortable to you So you should it's not about cheapening your work though. There's a difference. There's a different mindset there It's about I put so much value into this thing Not I made it longer or bigger because that's just complicating things But I put so much value into this thing for such a great price that people would feel stupid saying no to it That's kind of my metric for how to, how to price a priced offer.
Jürgen:
00:35:07
so it's, uh, yeah, it's obviously a case by case situation and, um, Very hard to put a formula to. All
Jay Melone:
00:35:21
Yeah, it's true. I tried to break it down in this week's newsletter. We'll see
Jürgen:
00:35:25
right,
Jay Melone:
00:35:25
we'll see what the response
Jürgen:
00:35:26
we'll link to that in the show notes, as well as all the other links that we'll have. But this is a fantastic conversation. I'm just aware of the time and I think it's a good point now to move on to the buzz, which is our innovation round. It's the same five questions that I ask of every guest. And the idea is you'll give us some really insightful answers that'll inspire the listener to go and do something actionable today to really move ahead in whatever they're aiming to do. Alright, what's the number one thing anyone needs to do to be more innovative?
Jay Melone:
00:36:08
Assume that you don't have the answers.
Jürgen:
00:36:10
Assume that you have the answers. Oh,
Jay Melone:
00:36:15
No, assume that you don't
Jürgen:
00:36:16
Yeah, I missed that. Sorry, the audio is breaking up a little bit. Um, assume that you don't have the answers. That's right. So then, then you, um, need to make the answers or find the answers. Hmm. Alright, what's the best thing you've done to develop new ideas?
Jay Melone:
00:36:37
Prototypes. Um, putting pen to paper and building my ideas and putting them in front of my customers always gives me insights that I would have never seen coming. Our blind spots are the things that keep us having from a good product to something that
Jürgen:
00:36:49
Yeah, wonderful. So, and, and we've talked in great depth about productizing services. So, yeah, it's great.
Jay Melone:
00:37:00
Yeah, those are prototypes very much.
Jürgen:
00:37:02
All right. Now, do you have a favorite resource you use most often?
Jay Melone:
00:37:09
um, my newest favorite is a tool called condo. Um, it allows me to do all of the LinkedIn DMS outside of the platform itself with lots of other bells and whistles that the, the standard LinkedIn inbox does not
Jürgen:
00:37:24
So, um, that's a plugin for LinkedIn, is it? Or a
Jay Melone:
00:37:31
It is a third party tool. That is, um, it's a
Jürgen:
00:37:35
Well, I have to check that out. I'm not familiar with that.
Jay Melone:
00:37:40
saves me a lot of time because I really LinkedIn is a, can be a black hole. So the moment you go in there to check messages, you'll find yourself responding to comments that you really shouldn't be
Jürgen:
00:37:49
Sounds like a really valuable tool. Okay. Um, what's the best way to keep a client on track?
Jay Melone:
00:38:05
buzz around quick answers. Best way to keep a client on track. Um, I like to give people homework with timelines. So all of my work is shrunk into three weeks and I give them clear, actionable. Um, milestones when their work has to be done, when we have to meet and when they have to schedule their next session with me, what I've learned is that most business owners. Are missing having a boss in some way, tiny shape. They just want someone once in a while to tell them what to do. And so I try to be that person with them because there's enough coaches that answer questions with questions. So I try to be kind of like on people's
Jürgen:
00:38:40
Yeah. Interesting. Most people are longing for the boss. Yeah. Often they take that role themselves and they, um, they're the worst boss possible. All right. Final question of the buzz round. What's the number one thing anyone can do to differentiate themselves?
Jay Melone:
00:39:03
Well, I think we. Underestimate how world, how, how, how big the world is. And so I always hear that my market is saturated, but literally almost every market is saturated that like net new Greenfield innovation is 0. 001%, something like this. So assume that your market is saturated, and then remember that you have your own experiences and frameworks and ways of solving those, those problems and your own stories that will resonate with the person that you most want to work with anyway,
Jürgen:
00:39:33
Yeah. So it's a, it's a case of really making sure you understand who you can help and who you will resonate with, who needs that, and who's. the ideal client. Excellent. Well, thanks for getting us through the buzz round, Jay. And also thanks for the conversation today. It's been fabulous. Now, where can people find out more about you, about the work you do at, um, Profit Letter and, and also maybe get in touch and say, thanks for what you shared today.
Jay Melone:
00:40:10
Yeah, of course. I'm at profit ladder. net and I do spend a good chunk of time
Jürgen:
00:40:17
Okay. All right. And we'll, we'll have those links in the show notes and also a link to that, um, upcoming post. It'll probably be published by the time this Episode is to, um, the pricing. How do you price your product? Excellent. So finally, Jay, what action would you like our listener to take out of a conversation today?
Jay Melone:
00:40:45
Um, go and figure out what you do, like make it really clear about what the work is that you do and, you know, then go and share that with some of your target clients and see if they understand what it is that you actually are trying to, to sell them and, and do for them as a, as a service. It's probably less clear than you think it
Jürgen:
00:41:06
um, I love that. Go share it with some target clients because then you'll get, or what does that mean? Or how does that look? Or I don't understand that or whatever feedback you might get or whatever questions you might get and then reflect on those and and refine it, right?
Jay Melone:
00:41:27
The courage to ask those tough questions. You probably don't want to hear the initial, the initial answers, but you'd probably rather hear that than just to be on that hamster wheel of selling stuff that nobody
Jürgen:
00:41:37
Excellent. Well, great call to action and thanks so much for sharing your time and your insights with us so generously today, Jay. I've enjoyed this immensely and really learned a lot about, um, that concept of building the flywheel with a lot of small, smaller flywheels that are much easier to get started, but then, um, have their own momentum that can drive that bigger flywheel, which then has a huge momentum once it gets going. So I love the flywheel concept, obviously. Um, we talk a lot about that here. Um, thanks so much and all the best for the future. Please do stay in touch.
Jay Melone:
00:42:19
Thanks Juergen.
Jürgen:
00:42:21
Thanks for listening. We'd love you to leave a review on this episode. It will help us to make the podcast better for you. Simply go to lovethepodcast. com forward slash InnovaBuzz and pick your preferred platform. Remember to visit innovabiz. co forward slash Flywheel and secure your membership to the exclusive Flywheel Nation community, where you will enjoy direct access to our incredible podcast guests, engaging meaningful conversations and participate in connection events designed to elevate your business journey. Don't miss out. Join Flywheel Nation today. Tune in again to the next episodes of the InnovaBuzz podcast where we've got yet more fantastic guests lined up. Until next time, I'm Jürgen Strauss from InnovaBiz. Remember, be awesome and keep innovating.
