speaker-0: Most people think depression looks like sadness. It does not. In men, it looks like anger. It looks like shutting down. It looks like the man you love becoming someone you do not recognize. And the woman beside him, she sees it. She knows something is wrong. She just has no idea how to reach him. Today, a nurse who has spent nine years at the bedsides of dying people is going to tell us exactly what that silence cost us and what finally breaks through it. Welcome to the Informed Choice Podcast. Where natural healing makes practical truth. I'm Innie, the Niger goddess, and this is where we simplify holistic wellness so you can stop guessing and start healing. Our guest today spent nine years as a hospice nurse, which means she spent nine years in the most honest rooms most of us will never enter. Rooms where there's no performance left, there's no pretending, no time for anything that is not true. What she witnessed in those rooms did not leave her when she walked out the door. It became the problem she became most determined to solve. She's a board certified registered nurse with a Bachelor of Science in Nursing and nine years of clinical experience at the end of life care. She earned a nickname Angel of Mercy from the patients and families she served, always present, always in white, always steady in the hardest moments a family can face. While she kept seeing episode after episode of human life closing, was not just for people who were sick. It was the partner standing beside them who had to watch something go wrong for years and had no idea how to reach the person they loved the most. That gap between knowing and being able to help became her life's work. She is here today to talk about what happens when a man's depression shows up as anger, while the people who love him who often see it clearly still feel completely powerless and what actually breaks through. Please welcome Dr. Andrea Angel Atkinson Taylor. you so much for having me. Thank you for being here. Like your work and what you have spent your life on is incredible. And I cannot wait for the audience to hear all of your jewels of wisdom. Thank you. Yes. Are you ready to jump in? Okay. All right. Well you spent nine years as a hospice nurse, as I just stated. Before we go anywhere else, describe what those rooms were actually like, but what you felt walking in and walking out.
speaker-1: Yes, ma'am. thought that I was going to going into a room of and comfort and a lot of times it was tense. Very tense. Yes, it w a lot of times it was very tense. Many times, of the reasons that I loved hospice is because I felt like you would get closure. But family members fought a lot while the person is passing away. They felt like things were not settled. They felt like he loved you more. You didn't
speaker-0: I was not expecting you to say While the person is passing
speaker-1: participate in the care you're only showing up now because a will is present or pending money and then another thing that was really a big part of it was step wife or stepchildren.
speaker-0: Money. Second friend to the ex wife and the current wife.
speaker-1: Yeah. it was very tense. And it was a lot in a lot of cases because sometimes it was this is my home, this was my home, and you ripped it out. So it was very tense. Alive? Alive.
speaker-0: It is ten. While the person is still technically Did you ever sense from the the patient that was in the in the death process that they were aware that that was happening?
speaker-1: Sometimes they were aware. A lot of times patient had their eyes closed. They can't hear. They can still hear. And we all know that that's one of the things. That's the last sentence. And it would be days that this person is quiet and family is arguing or something, all of a sudden the patient just outbursts. Either, no, stop and what? Yes.
speaker-0: I don't know what I was expecting, but I wasn't expecting this.
speaker-1: Ha ha ha
speaker-0: And the the family members where I've been there and their hospice transition, there was none of what you're speaking of. So I was I don't know, I guess I was based off my own lived experience. Okay. But with your expertise, clearly that's not it you're saying like that was more typical?
speaker-1: That was very typical. That was very typical. And and sad.
speaker-0: Terribly sad. Sad. I mean, if anything, wait till the person passes for you for all this nonsense. Right.
speaker-1: And I would tell my kids all the time weddings and funerals bring out the worst in people.
speaker-0: And I get that, but not at the hospice center or or at your home when you're going through hospice in care like. So when you witnessed that walking in you were expecting peace and walking out, you were tense as well or you were
speaker-1: was intense I felt I felt because I would feel as though I a situation for that minute. You know right. I brought the piece as much as I could, just like reminding them what's important. Your loved one is the most important thing. You can't think about yourself in this time.
speaker-0: You brought the piece.
speaker-1: know. Okay, I know.
speaker-0: think it's very s maybe I don't have the proper understanding but it just seems very selfish. This is not about you right now. Right. So I just feel like of what's going on, you have to be r mature and put things to the side and be there for that person in their final moment so they can transition peacefully. Yeah. And if a person can't bring themselves to do that then you shouldn't be there. It that's my initial thought and I don't know if I don't have enough context to have a different opinion, but that's that's how I currently
speaker-1: No, you have enough context and that's how it should be. But a lot of people don't think about that. Which is sad.
speaker-0: Okay. Okay. You have said you watched too many people die with regret and depression. At what point did you realize you were seeing a pattern and not just individual suffering?
speaker-1: Know at what point, but I know that it completely changed my life being a hospice nurse. Completely changed my life because I knew that that was something that I did not want to happen to me or people that I care about and people that I don't care about. Like you don't realize until it's too late that tomorrow is just not promised. And what are we gonna do today just to reach one and teach somebody and show that we care just live a life of joy, right?
speaker-0: So what did that look like? How did it because most of the time when people in hospice, at least midpoint to endpoint, they're not really speaking. So how did you recognize regret or depression that if they weren't able to vocalize it? Like they they are
speaker-1: They are speaking. Yeah. A lot of people smoke till the end. And you know that's the thing that people think, you're in hospice, you're really no.
speaker-0: ⁓ I guess again from my f encounters they were not able to sponge. Yeah, they're at that point where they're on sponges for water, like
speaker-1: Okay, yeah. No, I like I remember this one person, it was an older lady, and I forgot exactly what was her diagnosis, but this lady was physically fit. She would walk around, every time we go to visit her, we're like, How you feeling? She's like, I woke up again today. Like she was so sad that she woke up. She was sad that she woke up. She's like, sh she says, I've done everything.
speaker-0: To a sad?
speaker-1: I'm ready to go. Like, yeah. So so so I'm just saying that to say that there were people that were physically fit, they were on hospice. You know, you don't and that's the that's something that I wish that people realize that being on hospice doesn't mean that you are dying tomorrow. Right. You know, sometimes being a hospice means that you choose that you're not gonna get aggressive treatment anymore for whatever illnesses that there are. or the doctors have told you there's nothing else we can do. Yes. But you don't have to go to palliative care first. You can go straight to hospice.
speaker-0: Isn't it palliative care and then hospital? Okay. Right. Well th I guess it depends on that person's situation. Yes. If you go straight to hospice it's because it's we're assuming that the end is absolutely coming, but palliative care there's a chance at a turnaround? More of a turn.
speaker-1: The end is well, the based on your numbers. You know, we do a calculation and based on your numbers, it I mean, everybody's end is coming, right? Right. So, but it depends on what you want to do. I mean, because you could decide today, hey, you know what? whatever I have going on, I'm not gonna get treatment. You can go on hospice and they keep doing the scale for you. And it's like, okay, have you decreased since the last time we did the scale? Yeah, but you can be on hospice for a while. Well, it depends on what the numbers are 'cause especially people with Alzheimer's, they are on the hospice for more than a year. 'Cause people with dementia or Alzheimer actually live a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Which is so sad sometimes because watching your l you know, you can't they can't remember anything but
speaker-0: Here they are.
speaker-1: So yeah, so it it was different, it depends. I know.
speaker-0: Yeah, okay. Okay, ⁓ most people your position would process what they witness and continue to work. You made a career pivot. What specific moment moved you from witnessing to deciding to do something about it?
speaker-1: There was a specific moment. I know that just with everything, seeing people kill themselves from depression, seeing my own family members just living with sadness, seeing my friends living with sadness. And I always feel like I'm like the strongest friend or family member. just with everything, with politics, like we what are we what are we gonna do? And it it takes person to make a difference, right? So ⁓ not me? ⁓
speaker-0: Why not men? I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I love that. Okay, your focus is men specifically, right? Yes. But in a lot of ways the person you're really speaking to is the woman beside him. How did you arrive at that as a center of your work?
speaker-1: Because I think that women a gift, right? We women are a gift. And I think that men need to be vulnerable with. And it's to be vulnerable with a woman than be vulnerable with another guy. So I think that that helps like just being able to be an encourager.
speaker-0: We're
speaker-1: for your mate and letting them know it's okay, like I got you. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's very powerful. The mental health conversation has been dominated by a certain kind of language, vulnerability, openness, asking for help. From what you have observed, how well does that language actually land with the men that you're trying to reach?
speaker-1: It does not land with them. Yeah. Right? You know that. It does not land land with them because they don't have a safe space. They're called names if they show weakness, but then also it's generational because to teach our men to be strong also. Like what what man or woman is saying, Hey, it's okay, cry today? Like you just don't teach that. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. You talk about depression showing up as anger in men. Walk me through what that actually looks like. Not necessarily the clinical definition I'll I'll add on there, but what it looks like and sounds like in a relationship, at the dinner table, in your car ride home, like
speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's and I think that we call it snapping and I hope people know what that is. Like you just ask a simple question, the person snaps at you for no reason. ⁓
speaker-0: Or the the under the surface simmering anger. Yes. Like this so you're always like
speaker-1: Yeah, like wh why where did that come from? Why are you talking to me that way? A for n for and sometimes it's just for no reason. We don't know why, right?
speaker-0: And you're like, I'm already trying my best to support you and you keep dumping on me and then
speaker-1: You snap you're snapping at me for no reason. Like what what is it? Yeah. But then it's hard you you it's hard to figure out and it's hard to if you're someone in an abusive relationship verbally or physically because you've seen this person at their best. Yeah. And now if I leave them, am I abandoning them? But yeah, it just looks like it just looks like they're just snapping and And when you get to the core of what it is they're angry about maybe they're not making enough money because also the other thing is women are dominating everything now, right? Yeah. So men don't have sports anymore.
speaker-0: Is that I'm not a sports person, I didn't know that's
speaker-1: Just saying, like now women are taking over sport.
speaker-0: ⁓ I was aware. Okay. good to know.
speaker-1: Yeah. Like I mean, 'cause before it would just be everything, let's say men's basketball. Now it's women's basketball. Okay. You know, in type of other athletics, women are taking that over. And also women are becoming more spectators too, where it would be like, Okay, this is the guy thing. And the other that I know that men used to like was going to the barber shop. There probably are still some barbershops but now they're salon suites, so you don't have that interaction. And now it's the other thing that you can't even talk there because you go in and now there's women in there. And also women getting haircuts. Yeah. So I wonder, you know, I really have to ask that question and I wonder if some men are listening, like, do you guys feel like there's nothing left for us? 'Cause I feel like that sometimes.
speaker-0: female barbers as well. Yeah, yeah. your husband feel does he feel he has a place to go with men outside of his outside of his friend group and them planning something? Does he feel like they can just go somewhere and just be guys?
speaker-1: Mm no. Because you can't even go fishing anymore 'cause women are doing that. Can't go golf anymore. Women are doing that. Like, so is there really something left for guys? I don't I don't think so.
speaker-0: just for a counterbalance, what are the spaces that women go to that
speaker-1: Well you know what I think that women create their own spaces where men really don't, right? Because women are having day parties, women only. It's a movies for women only. Like women are doing the book club, women only, but like so many things are women only where you don't necessarily see something that a man is planning.
speaker-0: Because that skill set is is more natural towards than men. Not that they are incapable by any means, but it's more natural for a woman to create a space. Right.
speaker-1: Even these, you know, summits or gallas or stuff. It's women focused,
speaker-0: The ones I'm aware of in
speaker-1: Yeah. And then if a man is there, even though a man is there, we kinda walk in like, What is he doing in here? I thought it was
speaker-0: How'd you get a ticket?
speaker-1: money. But w don't we do that? Like this I this was
speaker-0: Yeah, that's true. I'm just trying to spoil.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Yeah. Hmm. That's definitely food for thought. What you male type depression, the standard diagnos diagnostic criteria, this is like one of the few areas where the research is really female based ⁓ everything literally like when it comes like hormonal health or anything with health is always based on the man and then they scale it down for women, right? But here depression presents with in women it presents a sadness, withdrawal, tearfulness. Loss of interest in men, the same neurochemical state frequently presents as irritability, risk taking behavior, increased alcohol or drug use, emotional numbness. Yes. But the literature, because it's really more based on women, there's not a lot of research on how that presents in men. And so the serotonin and dopamine depletion is identical in both men and women in terms of why they're feeling a certain way, but how they emote that. shows up differently. And so that and then when even when you hear commercials or anybody talking about it, you still think of it as the sadness and the withdrawal. And that's really based on women. So the outward expression is what is different. And there's not a lot of conversation or research, in-depth research comparable to what they have for women. And that's why so many men specifically go undiagnosed for years. Right. they don't look depressed. Right. Right. Based on what we believe depressed is, they just look angry or the people around them respond in anger, not understand that's depression that's underneath that. And the suicide rate in the United States among men is four times higher than that of women, despite being no diagnosed, despite women being diagnosed with depression at twice the rate. So there's more than twice the rate of women that are diagnosed as depressed, four times more men actually commit suicide. So that's a significant gap. Right. right there. ⁓ And that's because it's unrecognizable in terms of how the man presents because no one identified him as depressed. They just saw him as angry or or something like that. So I think you bringing that up is it really sheds a light on the problems and why we should have these types of conversations. And we have a mutual friend who's actually putting together a summit just for men. Right. ⁓ and their mental health and their safe space. Right. Because I don't ever hear and I think of a summit is either COVID or for women. Right. So I you know yeah it's just really important like we have this conversation that you have decided to focus on men. and how the support of that man, what that looks like. So I'm looking forward to digging deeper into that.
speaker-1: Then the other thing is, do men know they are depressed? No. that we're laughing, but
speaker-0: That was my personal opinion, not my clinical opinion. But from what I'm what I have seen anecdotally. Yeah. No. Right.
speaker-1: They yeah, and that's the other thing.
speaker-0: I think even having that label might feel feminizing to them as well. Right. But emasculating to men that present in a more in a in a male fashion or I forgot the what's the language for it. The partner in this scenario is not oblivious. She sees it. Yeah. She knows what she's looking at. What is she getting wrong when she tries to help? Not out of ignorance, but out of love and absolute desperation. ⁓
speaker-1: That's exactly what I'm Sometimes it's the roach.
speaker-0: Clarify.
speaker-1: How do you approach someone makes a difference? And when you approach someone, because are you approaching them lovingly? Are you approaching them anger, which I've been guilty of a few times, you know, because I'm feeling like you're angry at me, I'm gonna show you what you're showing me and not thinking at that minute.
speaker-0: About when she okay, let's say that the spouse for let's say the wife, sees anger, and because of you know depression being linked to how women emote depression, she doesn't recognize his anger as depression. Right. He just sees his anger directed towards her. And she tries to approach him lovingly, but he continues snapping at her and giving her back anger to the point where she gets really upset and it's like, look, you know, so if if it's like that, how does she how does she help?
speaker-1: She's gonna have to just give him space. You have to give him space, but you also have to take time out for yourself. The spouse, both people have to take time out for yourself. But as a woman, I think that just leave it to time sometimes, right? You gotta leave it to time, give him some space, come back and approach something. And my favorite thing to do is write a letter. Like.
speaker-0: Just space. the for the spouse.
speaker-1: Because if you write a letter to that person, they'll be able to and maybe not a letter or a text, though people do people even write letters. I like because I like writing letters and write that letter, let them read it. ⁓ their own time and in their own voice. Because when I'm reading a letter, I'm reading it in my own voice. Right? Yeah. Rather than hearing your voice, your voice could be annoying at that time. For that
speaker-0: I personally do. Okay. So they have they can process it on their own. sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Right. So yeah, that'll probably
speaker-0: Approach how much space is enough space? Because and again this could be anecdotal. A person I've met who is like that, I mean, it could be months.
speaker-1: Yeah, months is too long.
speaker-0: Right. So what where is the count if the person is truly depressed, they don't recognize it, and let's say even the spouse becomes aware the person's depressed, presenting as anger, and gives them the space, writes the letter, and the person's still snappy, the person is still distant. like what does the person what does the spouse do to support them? Because they see that their partner is spiraling and partner doesn't want help in that way. You know, they feel like they'll figure it out they got it and they don't don't call them depressed, don't say they have a problem, they don't want to hear it like that. So what does she do?
speaker-1: Well, she's gonna have to seek counseling for both. First, you're gonna have to get it for yourself. And then you're gonna have to get it for both. your husband is not willing, it's almost like you're gonna have to do an ultimatum, right? Because it probably is gonna make it worse, but you have it's worse already, right? So what what other things are we gonna have to do? Like we gotta get to rock bottom before we can go up.
speaker-0: For whom? For Yeah. Doesn't that does that make it worse potentially?
speaker-1: And if the ultimatum is gonna be what it takes to get you to the other side, then that's what you have to do.
speaker-0: Otherwise, if you've done everything you can do then then the alternative the person still doesn't agree is to part ways. Right. To protect yourself. Yes.
speaker-1: And then try to work it from the outside. But I mean, what else can you do? Yeah, like what right, like what else can you do besides calling his mom? Like I'm telling your mom. sometimes I think with certain situations, I'm gonna put this out in the open and I'm gonna tell your friends, I'm gonna put this on social media. Like
speaker-0: Right. That's what I was asking. What else? Ha ha ha ha ha. you don't not not to keep it private? Right. Don't keep it private.
speaker-1: I'm not gonna keep it private if 'cause is it. ⁓
speaker-0: What does what does not keeping it private look like in a way that still ultimately helps a situation where he doesn't feel like you're being spiteful or petty or or just putting your business out there? Like yeah. What does that look like putting it out publicly in a way that's still helpful towards
speaker-1: th well I think it depends on who you put it out to first. Like I s if the mom is around, I'm gonna tell your mom. Or I'm gonna tell sensible family members. And not in a gossip
speaker-0: Okay. So if he doesn't have that, say his family's deceased or the family is not the best character. Right. I'm just trying to give different snare narrative for different watchers or di listeners. W what's the next step?
speaker-1: The next step is that I'm going to tell other people. if you have a church family, I'm gonna tell the church. I'm gonna tell the pastor. Like you have to start telling people ⁓ you've gotten to the end. You know, because of course when you get married, they say don't tell your business because people are gonna gossip. But if you've done everything else, what else is there to do but to get help from other people that ⁓ tell someone that he respects?
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: 'Cause if you tell someone that he respects, that person reaches out and is like, hey, and I mean, there's a difference I feel in a mate that if this mate is so severely angry that all of this stuff it worse, then there's seriously something wrong with him. Like, you know what I mean? Like this is beyond just real just anger. Like maybe he's like psychotic or bipolar or something. That is like a real chemical imbalance.
speaker-0: How does that how does that look if the p that same person might be struggling with addiction on top of that?
speaker-1: That is, yeah, that is the worst. And and I mean, just like I'm saying it, like, yeah, he some real help. And know, I used to love those shows that came on TV where it would be you're you walk in and all your family members are there to try right trying to get you to do something. And and that's like one of those rock bottom things where like, yeah, but I you know, I mean ⁓ The things that I wanna address is not that severity. Trying to prevent it from getting from that. Like that, that is just, yeah, that's like the saddest rock bot. ⁓ my goodness. I can't even imagine. And prayers go out to anyone that's dealing with that right now, because that's a lot. Yeah.
speaker-0: You're trying to prevent it from getting to that. Yeah, I'm glad you touched on that. So that I think we covered a spectrum right with that in terms of what the supporting spouse or partner could do. Yeah. For the for the the man that's in their life, whether it be, you know, whether whatever their spouse is. Right. Okay. Well, there's a version of support that feels like pressure and a version that actually opens a door. What is the difference practically? how a partner shows up for the man whose depression is presenting as anger.
speaker-1: Yeah. know, I think that church is of the best options. Like get you gotta get him to church and get him to ⁓ ⁓ couples groups, try to do outings together, but I feel like church is like the biggest help at first.
speaker-0: Like men's groups. Yep. That's the initial first step. Yes. In terms of public awareness, public in that sense and being around other people where it could possibly be a new safe space for him. And just playing devil's advocate, what if that person is an atheist or you know, what if that person doesn't believe in going to church? Right. How does what are the what's the alternative option? The alternative like meetup groups instead or say I don't know.
speaker-1: Right. I do not think meetup groups. No, I do not think meetup groups, but I think almost like plan your own thing. Him? Like plan No, you. ⁓ Like for at the spell. Like plan your own kind of meetup group per se, where you're inviting either couples or you're making a dinner to have people come and it's like, hey
speaker-0: The the supporting spouse, particularly this female, she can create the space for him. Right. If he is anti church for some you know, or anti whatever their religion or spirituality practices are.
speaker-1: Right. But I I believe and I hope that couples or even the spouse has people that you can lean on, right? Like yeah, like if you're isolated, you have to get out meet people.
speaker-0: You a hope. People if the man is isolated. Well okay, if either partner right, is isolated.
speaker-1: Or woman. Yes. You have to get out and meet people. Like you have to. Like w we need people. We need each other. We need to see how other people relate. And we need to see how it can be done better. Because we're not we're not the know all be all, you know. Like you can do something that I'm not realizing. And also I think that I love diversity because we all grew up different. So Even with like let's say the basic common cold. Some people take natural herbs, some people and it's like, wow, if someone shared that, I didn't know that. Like, wow. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, it opened a whole understanding that could enhance your life. Yes. Unknowingly if you hadn't been in a space or the room with different people had different experiences and different thought patterns. So that makes sense.
speaker-1: Right. Yeah. It I just love I just love areas, especially Charlotte, New York, where it's just so diverse with just so many different and
speaker-0: I hear the New York accent. Hey. Shout out to Brooklyn. Yeah, Brooklyn, okay.
speaker-1: So I think that that just makes such a big difference, right? Even being here when we first got here, it was like ⁓ as Charlotte, yeah. We first got here from New York, it was just like why are why are they why is everything so slow here? Like come on, got you know, we went to the store, like they're like, So how was your day? I got places to be, which I really didn't
speaker-0: Here isn't sure. Did
speaker-1: I did. And after a while it was just kinda like, you know what, this is nice.
speaker-0: What am I rushing all the time for work?
speaker-1: have no idea why I was rushing. I'm you. It was like, Yep, I'm home. to get here. Rush to get here. It was like for what? We just we was just used to that in New York. It's like, gotta go, gotta go, gotta go. But yeah, and it wasn't till the people here taught us to slow down. Take his breath. It's okay to find out what you're making with these onions and peppers that you just bought. What are you gonna make? What are you gonna make? And it's like your business.
speaker-0: Take a breath. Grocery store they're asking ⁓ wait Getting a little personal, right?
speaker-1: But it's okay. Now it's okay.
speaker-0: Yeah. I I do understand. Coming Nigerian culture, I would say it's a mishmatch between New York and Southern in a lot of ways. 'cause some people some people coming from a strictly American or Southern American mindset can see us as rude. Yeah. And it's not. They're just 'cause you walk in, they're like, What do you want? Right. Like you can't hear what what do you want? And it's like, Hi, how are you doing? How's your day? And all it's not necessarily like that. Yeah. So ⁓ and it's if you so if you go in there with that mindset
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: with a different culture, you know, because culture it's a different culture in New York. It's the same thing. So it's like you go there like they're so rude. So like, gosh, calm down. Like but you're taking your what you're used to in the southeast and taking it to the northeast and it doesn't work. Right. It's like you can't take that and take it to Cali. It's just totally different. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I get it. Well to put more of a clinical spin on what you just said, I took some notes. So there's a specific neurological reason why pressure and urgency from a partner can make it worse rather than better. When a man is in this state and is pushed to open up, to talk, ask about what he's feeling, his prefrontal cortex, which governs his emotional language and self-reflection, is already compromised by elevated cortisol. Okay. So he genuinely cannot access what she asking of him in that moment. She he really can't. So the request feels like a demand that he can't meet, which amplifies the shame. It amplifies the cortisol and shuts down the a prefrontal cortex further. And then it becomes this loop. Yeah. And then the research on co-regulation tells us that the nervous system of one person directly influences the nervous system of another. Yeah. So a calm, non-demanding presence that partner is not passive. It's the most clinically effective intervention available at that particular moment. So she doesn't have to fix it. She just has to regulate alongside it. And so just understand because he's doing this loop, he it feels like the demand, so it's not like he doesn't want to open up. But like the synapses are not sparking in between that because it's it's the brain chemistry is like off at that point. Right. So he just and then it makes it feel worse. And then it might get even more become even more snappy. So there's actually a lot of data to support why this loop tab, because you're I'm coming to help you, and you're still barking back at me, right? Because she feels like I've already endured this with you. I'm trying to help you, and you're still giving me your butt to kiss, right? And then so what do I do? You know, and then especially if she's not even aware of that. He's showing all these signs but it's actually depression and she's thinking he's being an asshole. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: think it goes back to again you have to take time out for yourself. The partner. You have to take time out for yourself and seek help for yourself because maybe it is your
speaker-0: The part that's dealing with the stress. That's always a possibility. It's always possible.
speaker-1: Right. Let's not let's not say that.
speaker-0: They say everytime you do this you got three points back at you, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, let's not say that the men are completely crazy 'cause sometimes there are women that are just like like
speaker-0: Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah.
speaker-1: It you see them right? Yeah. So sometimes you need help because sometimes there's women that are needy, that you need
speaker-0: Just too much. The dancing distress all the time and just can't get anything done, like right. And just weighing him down, not supporting and building together.
speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. So I think that sometimes in that in instances like that, it's like seek help and seek counseling for yourself because you never will be able to tell like that it's you.
speaker-0: think that's such a great point. It's something I talk about amongst my friends from the culture differences. So what I've noticed was females in the United States. I don't want to just say black females, but just in general, more females in the United States, they're not ⁓ raised general. These are generalities. Okay, don't shoot me. All right. Okay. These are generality. They're not raised the mindset to be a wife. Right. and so like in my culture, you're raised the mindset to be a wife, be a husband. You're raised in a we, not a I. Right. And what has become more and more supported via social media and trends and things, not saying that that's what it is, but what is promoted heavily currently is well he gotta have this and this and this and this. And if he don't have all this, like what are you bringing to the table? Because you have to be a table so that a man can have something to bring to it. Right. And so that means you need to have something in between the ears. You gotta have stuff going on so you can stand on your own. Right. So that way you all can compliment each other and build together. And and so that's how my culture is, but I don't see that as the prevalent culture in the United States. It's more like what can he do? How much money does he have? Is he this tall? Is he this this all these check boxes? And then it's like you can't where where is the part where you all build together and and create something new together and have a and have that mindset? Yeah right? Because you want these ⁓ a man, a man who already has all those boxes checked, he's probably already married because that woman already invested the time right to get that man to that spot, right? You have to be willing to say, okay, he's got the good raw materials. He's not a bum. He's not just playing video games all day or something like that and ⁓ just not contributing in life. But he's got the raw materials. He's doing these things and together we can take it to the next step because that's why a woman's supposed to help amplify. And that's what we do. We create and we amplify. So as long as you have good raw materials, you can do that. And I just don't see that or hear that in terms of ⁓ the very limited T V or exposure I have and the very limited times I'm I actually might scroll on social media, it's not positive for marriage. It's not positive for long term deep committed relationships. It it's like it's very selfish. It's like, okay, and the second you step outside this box, you're out next. Yeah. I'm like, how how is that building a lasting relationship? How does that work?
speaker-1: Right. But I think that I think that it's important for both parties to be mutual mutually acceptable of what you want. Because also a man, you know that she was a gold digger and you don't you didn't care.
speaker-0: And you You're saying he would have known in the beginning she would have got there, but he just wanted her anyway?
speaker-1: You you don't you don't care. You just want candy, right? You want this arm candy or you just keep going with it for whatever reason. Why? That that was also your fault.
speaker-0: Yeah, it takes two tango. Right. I if he signed up as in the beginning, don't be surprised that a year later she still has to
speaker-1: Yeah. Also the other thing, just like you you're saying, also, a lot of women don't even cook anymore. We weren't we weren't raised like that. But people
speaker-0: Don't understand it. Because I hear from one other time, well, you say that because you're a chef and all this and that. No. Right. So again, my culture, both the men and the women learn how to cook. They always say, like, you can't leave your hunger in a woman's hands, right? Because the man knows how to do it, but once you come together, that's more the that's the woman's responsibility. Right. Right. So you have there's more delineated sex roles in the culture, right? Doesn't mean that couple can't negotiate other things, but both parties know how to do but it's a woman's responsibility. Yeah. Here's just like and he better take me out and I want person I like has become like a cuss word or it's it's I don't understand it. Yeah. I do not understand it. And it's like if you have a man who's a chef who likes to cook learning, but that's cool. You sh you but you should still do that because they still really appreciate it. Right.
speaker-1: You know what? And I don't know if you know that I am Jamaican. I was born in Jamaica. Right. I was born in Jamaica. So I understand what you're saying because that's how we were raised also. So we were raised to cook every day, clean, wash clothes, do all of that, which I did that for a long time, no longer, 'cause I'm tired. but I think that social media has a lot to do with it. And I don't know how it changed or when it changed, but
speaker-0: That's
speaker-1: Social media has a lot to do with it. But I also think that parents have to raise their kids that way. Cause we still raise our kids. Hey, the guys, the sons, you have a girlfriend, open the door. Yes. So you ask her what she wants to eat, you treat her with respect if she comes to our house. And parents are not passing that along either.
speaker-0: feel like and this could be a this clip could go viral because it's like they were like well that's anti feminist and all that I don't I can't call myself any of that. I don't know what the labels and stuff are because I don't like to be put in that all I know is that you should do it. Yeah if you're in a this is not something you just do for any old body. Right. Okay. If you're this is a person headed towards marriage or you're married, you absolutely should do it and you should do it joyfully with not without the you know right you should do everything cheerfully as long as you're a partnership, right? Like he he has to be carrying his weight too. Yeah. Right. But you should do it with a joyful heart and and be willing to do it. And if it's a day you're sick, you don't feel well, it doesn't you know, he can step in and help or or or whatever. Right. Right. But in general you should do it. And I don't understand why that's a problem. I really don't. I don't
speaker-1: Right. But you know, I think that, I'm gonna put my daughter on the spot and my niece because I think ⁓
speaker-0: I forgot her name, she I I really loved her.
speaker-1: because I think that what they say is that they're like, you know, I can do bad by myself. ⁓ But ⁓ they feel like they would rather be by themselves. Like if I have to share some of that expenses or do that much for someone else, I'm not gonna do it. Is what they say.
speaker-0: Yeah you can All by yourself. And I feel like they can say it now in their twenties and thirties, okay, what about when you're in your sixties and seventies? You know, are built to compliment one one another. We're not built to be ice in isolation. We're built as social creatures, right? Yeah. Doesn't matter how introverted you are or how extroverted you are. We that's what the human experience is built upon. So this mindset, ⁓ I can do it okay, you and you'll be by yourself. Right. You absolutely be by yourself. Yeah. Yeah, you can keep playing right now and that's cool if you want to do this. Absolutely no judgment. Do what you choose to do. Because this is about informed choice, okay? That's why this call podcast called informed choice. So do what you feel like you want to do, but don't say you didn't know. Right? Because time goes by like that. Like that. Can you believe I feel like we just had New Year's how's half the year already gone? So when especially at the older you get, the faster time goes. So that's not something you you want. And I think when with how social media is and stuff right now,
speaker-1: If it's already June, it's the end of June.
speaker-0: I don't think they can see the long view because everything's about instant gratification. This is what I need now. Not thinking about well if I invest this now, what this can get me.
speaker-1: Right. If I plant the tree now, what's am I gonna have a big tree in no they want the they don't want the
speaker-0: Seeds. They want the chia pit version. They want the oak tree or the meringa tree that's you know gonna have some lasting power. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Shay you've been put on notice. Okay. Well you told me and you posted on LinkedIn when you needed support. Yes. And the response that changed something for you. Yeah. What did that moment teach you about what happens when someone who is always the strong one finally asks?
speaker-1: Yeah, like I said, that courage is contagious, right? And think that being courageous enough to put my business out there just to say, I'm tired, I need help, it's a lot. It really someone else permission to say, Man, I've been in the same thing. I've been doing feeling the same way. I just thought that it's not okay to share it because we have to be out here. We're small business owners, we have to be out. grinding, we have to do it. And so it really made a difference. And I'm glad I did it. Some people told me to take it down and I was like, no. And they were like, well, if I saw that on your page, I wouldn't want to ask you for help. And then you're not my customer. And that's okay. But other people became my customer because of that. Because they're like, ⁓ you showed that you're human. You showed that you were real. And and also I got help on other things that I needed. So people Yes. People just thought, I just saw you I would see you everywhere. I thought that you didn't need help. I thought everything is okay. And it's like, no, I was trying to be everywhere to be better. But yeah, that ⁓ so glad I did that post. If you didn't see it, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you can go back. I think that happened in March. Yeah, when I put that post down. Yeah. And and I ended up
speaker-0: Below.
speaker-1: Going to Florida, both of my parents live in Florida, ended up going to Florida for about a week and just did nothing. Like I was just like, I'm exhausted. Like I am exhausted. I think that maybe even posting that made me realize, like, am I depressed? Well, you know, so I think there was a little depression in there because thinking, I'm doing so much. Should I be further along in my business? Am doing the right thing? ⁓ So yeah, so that that post and the time off really helped and I know all that I'm doing is working because I'm here with you, which a blessing being here and just being able to share that and I think I think also telling you about post brought me here. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: It was powerful. Yeah, I really respect that. Okay. Nine years of hospice. What did you see the men specifically carrying that they had never said out loud to the people who loved them?
speaker-1: I think that they are were carrying regret because they never shared a lot. They never told people that they love them. They never, yeah, a lot of men, I mean black men, white men, all different nationalities, they they died with a lot of regret. And now you're trying to get all of this out ⁓ in. the few months or the few days that you have left and and I think that they feel like they let their family down because now they're dying. Which what can you do when you're dying and you got this chronic disease that you can't do anything about? And and this happens. Yeah, so men died with regret. So and that looked like them wanting to tell their family members that they love them. And I'm talking about these are people who are vegetarians who are avid runners who did everything perfect they're dying with small children.
speaker-0: Yeah. A woman is listening right now and she recognizes exactly what you're describing. She has been watching it for months or even years and she does not know what to do. Where does she start?
speaker-1: I would say that she has to start at a support group for herself, I mean, it's so many different places to start, but you have to be courageous enough to say something to someone that you can trust. So church, church group, female group, some a mentor, counseling.
speaker-0: For herself. And it's not putting your business out there, it's seeking
speaker-1: Help. It is seeking help. But who cares if you're putting your business out there?
speaker-0: Yeah. I'm saying that has like a negative con negative connotation and it stops people from
speaker-1: And we have to stop that. Mm-hmm. Cause how can we help one another if we're gonna be judgmental? We like we have to stop that. And I think that social media is good for one thing that I like is that it's you less judgy in some aspects because some people are putting so many things out there that it's like, Wow, I didn't know that. ⁓ I didn't think that. So we have to stop. And and how can we help each other?
speaker-0: Okay, well a man is listening and he knows he's been angry in a way that's not quite feel like anger. What would you want him to hear from you directly?
speaker-1: I want you to hear that you are not alone. There are so many other men that are going through the same thing. if you don't tell someone, you're not gonna know how to get over it.
speaker-0: mental health system is largely built around self reporting. Yeah. A man who does not recognize his own depression is not going to walk into a therapist office and say the right words. Okay. So what actually works as an entry point for men who would never call it what it is?
speaker-1: think that you know it you're why like you I I think the important question is asking yourself why like why am I angry? Why am I upset?
speaker-0: What if they don't recognize that they're angry? Like I know that in a a person that w I'm I'm aware of, you can tell them that you're like always angry and cranky all the time. And they're like, No, not in an angry way. don't they don't recognize that they're actually even angry. Right. So how
speaker-1: Okay. But you but there's no way that you can get help if you don't think you need help. So is really to someone sees it in someone else. You're gonna have to have the hard conversation with that person. Because what are you doing when you this person that you're saying you're just like
speaker-0: Get that person some space. Yeah, I'm just gonna walk
speaker-1: Right, but you but you're gonna have to if you care about the person, you're gonna have to find a way to approach them. I know I keep trying to tell you that you're upset, you're snapping, and you don't think you are. No. You are. Like why are you acting like that? And it depends on the person because If you know, I think in in the people that I know, when I finally have said it to to someone, I'm just like, Look, it's either you're gonna do something about it or we're like our relationship is done because I can't keep going through this. And I mean any type of relationship, a friendship, whatever it is, a family ship, I can't. It it's too much. And if you ⁓ we're trying to tell you something, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. Well to put a clinical lens on it, have my notes. So what you just described about entry points connects to d connects directly to one of most evidence supported interventions for depression in men specifically, which is called behavioral activation, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Traditional talk therapy asks people to process their feelings first and change the behavior second. Okay. Behavioral activation reverses that sequence entirely. It starts with action, walk, a shared meal, a task done side by side. And allows for emotional processing to follow naturally from the changed behavior. Yes. That works for men because the feel because the feelings find their way through the doing, not before it. Right. And from a nutritional standpoint, that action also needs fuel. So a brain running on processed food sustained cortisol that's elevated most likely does not have the raw materials to mood. So zinc, magnesium, omega-3 fatty acids, and B vitamins are the foundational nutrients that are needed. For neurotransmitter synthesis, right? That's the first thing that's always gonna be depleted. So you cannot think or feel your weight out of a nutritional ⁓ deficiency. The body has to be resourced first. So that's why it's always all the things. You can't start doing all these things right and still eat crap and drink and all the things because you're still you're just depleting your body. And those are the the minerals or the nutrients that go away first as you have chronic stress and chronic depression and all those things. They're rapidly being depleted. Right. So you have to consciously replenish and restore. Right. Yeah. Okay. Chose the name Angel of Mercy, White Scrubs, and calling a calling that you carry other people's pain professionally. Who was carrying yours?
speaker-1: Who carrying my pain? You know, I think that my husband carries a lot of my pain or carried a lot of my pain, which he is just one strong, awesome dude. You met him. I ⁓ so think he carried a lot of that. And I that my friends, like even though I was the strong one. I think that I was able to still lean on my Dazlin Diva friends back in New York a lot. So, but definitely my husband first ⁓ and then my friends. And I think more so lately, if I did have any pain, then I lean ⁓ on lot of my networking community. There are some that are it's just so close to me that I can lean on them and definitely my daughter, Shay, because she's getting older now, so now I can lean on her and be like, hey, and my niece. ⁓ who moved to Texas, I can lean on her. So and then I have another Dejeune, so I can lean on her. So I I think like now I have a lot. Yes, I have a lot of support to lean on, which is good. I like I'm like, thank God. But also I think that it takes like I said before, it takes courage to lean on s other people and not feel yeah and not and not feel like I'm gonna be judged by
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Definitely don't want to throw it back in my face. Yeah. Right.
speaker-0: Me use scratch for life. Scratch for life. Okay. What did nine years of watching people approach the end of their lives teach you about how to live yours?
speaker-1: ⁓ my goodness. That taught me, like I said, that that just changed my life for the better, being a hospice nurse. It just taught me to try to live a life of joy. Try to be kind as much as possible. Cause we I I think that we all have a little mean girl in a in in us a little bit, but it just taught me to be kind as much as possible. just try not to Thank you. Just trying not to live a life of regret. Like just try going out doing things. That fun. Last night I went to see Matt Rife, which it was one of yes. never knew.
speaker-0: What was it here? Hey Matt.
speaker-1: man, he was in Charlotte at the Spectrum Center and I kept telling my husband. Yes, I kept telling my husband, I was like, I want to see my wife so bad every time he he he came here more than once, every time he comes, the dates didn't line up, and my husband surprised me with tickets at the Spectrum Center. it was amazing hilarious. I love Let me tell you something. That man is ⁓ a genius. ⁓ he is so cute. ⁓
speaker-0: Is he was still funny in person and stuff too? I love him and he's adorable. He is.
speaker-1: So t just taking time out to do different things and I mean
speaker-0: I'm about to tag you on this foot, Mike. Right.
speaker-1: Even just being here, it's like taking time just to be like, you know what? Putting take like set time aside just to do fun girl stuff. Because this, even though we're doing this podcast, this is still like a fun girl thing to do. so yeah, just just enjoying life because if you continue to make your life be built around only work. Only stressful things. You're just gonna remain angry.
speaker-0: Life will totally pass you by. And then you'll look up one day towards the end, like, what did I do? What what happened? What went so fast? I learned recently to do so because I've always been so extremely focused on getting to the next goal or accomplishment. I never, ⁓ they say, enjoyed the journey. and then another part of culture. ⁓
speaker-1: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Do you enjoy your life? Just about to say I was like that's definitely a cultural thing.
speaker-0: The culture is like, okay, to it, right? So I and I certainly wasn't raised with celebrate the small moments and all that. And it still feels very unnatural for me. So like the first I took to and this is recent for me, very recent. I've I'm a published author, as you all know, nurse by Nyda Nigel. I actually threw a book release party. I would have never done that. Okay. I was just like, Okay, it's out there, you know, next thing, you know. Yeah. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna Do that. Yeah. And and so like I'm making a conscious effort as long as it becomes is I'm aware of it. Cause sometimes I'm not even aware. But when I'm aware of it, like, okay, I'm going to say, acknowledge that this has happened. Yes. And I'm going to purposefully take the time to say, Any good job. You did you did well. But it's it's a new habit. I'm I'm like, what's this Jul monthly July? Like I'm six months in.
speaker-1: Okay. Yeah. Good, good, good. I was definitely thinking I know what the culture is just like yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. But it's good because it's it's habits that you do also want to change in your own children, right? You don't want them to think, Okay, hey
speaker-0: You know the cult, it does not yeah. Well my sister with her two kids, my nephew and my niece, she has definitely changed it. We celebrate all the things. little micro steps. We celebrate things. And I'm happy to be there as their auntie and support them through all that. Yeah. Yeah. So she's already made that change. Okay. All right. That's fantastic. There's a growing conversation about whether current mental health framework is built around the feminine model of processing that asking men to talk about their feelings in a way therapy is currently designed may not be the right fit.
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: For how many men are actually wired, which is why probably a lot of men don't ever want to go to therapy. Yeah. What is your honest take on that?
speaker-1: I think that I I encourage it. Like I feel like we have to sure the men are okay. And I think that I want to encourage you to be open. Right? Because If you're if you're more open, you give someone else permission to be more open. And then that person gives someone else the permission to be more open.
speaker-0: So the woman should be a soft and safe place for the man despite his behavior. Which is very do especially in today's culture, I think that's extremely difficult for women to do. 'Cause like you've been not so nice, yeah, a hole. Right. And I'm still supposed to be soft and accommodating and let you have that place to land. So how do you help that woman with that?
speaker-1: Right. Well. Because if you're gonna stay in your relationship and you're gonna stay in your marriage, what are you gonna do? Like you you know, I I my husband hated when I say this, but I always said that if I left my relationship, know I've done everything I could. Right? So if wanna If you walk away from your relationship, I think that you should walk away with fulfillment to feel like, you know what, I've done everything I could. I've I've been this support. I've been open. I've done everything. And you can walk away with no regrets. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that's a yeah, that's great. All right, so you are a woman working specifically with men and their partners. Have you encountered resistance to that? if so, have you navigated?
speaker-1: have not because I think that I think that social media helps I feel that more people are open to a lot more things because the conversations there's so many conversations around depression there are so many conversations around
speaker-0: I keep hearing about narcissists all the time now. And there's I'm like, everything is narcissist and manosphere and red pill blue. I'm like, what is all going?
speaker-1: Yeah, I well the the the ones that we've encountered are just more I I think that it's just more people are more open and and people are sharing different things people are telling other people. So if you and I talked about it, it'd be like when I go home, my husband would be like, Well, what happened? And he's interested in knowing what happened and what did you think? And then he'll tell to his friends, ⁓ guess what? She was here. And so I think that that has been happening more so, which helps. Which helps. Yeah. Well
speaker-0: Yeah, okay. My last clinical hat. ⁓ there's a term in the research worth naming here, and that's Alexithemia, which I'm sure sh she knows all this. it is the clinical term for ⁓ for difficulty identifying and describing one's own emotional states. It is not a character flaw, it is not stubbornness, it is a learned neurological pattern, and it's significantly more prevalent in men because the emotional vocabulary and processing skills that help people identify.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Internal states are socialized out of boys from a very young age, as you spoke on earlier. The brain structures involved in emotional processing are fully intact in these men. The pathway between feeling something and being able to name it is simply never it's never been reinforced because of our social conditioning. This is why asking a man to articulate when he feels often like like how he feels often produces silence or deflection or anger. Right. ⁓ it's not resistance. The pathway was never built. And that's exactly why the work that Angel is describing is so necessary. So you can't ask someone to use a road that doesn't exist yet. So you have to help build it. And so what you've said is the woman helps build that road. So if the pathways, if the if the if this everything's intact, but the connection between those things and a brain haven't been established because it was never reinforced from childhood onward, right? Help them build it. Yes. So he's not trying to be, like I said, stubborn or irritable or deflect. He literally doesn't have the it hasn't been reinforced possibly in his brain for it to be something he can actually do comfortably. What are your thoughts on that? No
speaker-1: Agree. but you know, I think one thing that I want women to get is that we're talking about light, light stuff, right? Like we're not talking about like a real clinical, clinical problem that we're asking you to solve. Because if there is a real clinical problem, you're not gonna be able to help. So we're just talking about the light stuff that This person is angry, they're depressed, they're stressed at work, they hate their job, you know, they can't meet demands of whatever. So how can you help with that? Yeah.
speaker-0: And so if is something that's more intense, seek that professional help quicker than than letting it fester and get worse. That makes sense. Doctor Angel, I always ask every last guest the same question. If you tell the listeners to make one more informed choice this week, what would it be?
speaker-1: Definitely. Exactly. take time out for yourself. one of the things that I'm coined as is the balance builder. ⁓ So balance, I would say taking time out for yourself. B stands for breathing. A stands for acknowledging what is happening, right? ⁓ L for letting go. The ⁓ the the next A stands for aligning with what is happening, right? N stands nurture, nurturing yourself. The C stands for, let me look at my notes. C stands for, so the C stands for connecting. So you want to connect with others. And then E stands for empowering. So you want to empower yourself. So with that, just making sure you take time out for yourself. So you can get your own balance.
speaker-0: I love the acronym. Thanks. Okay, I'm gonna put that on screen. Okay. That is super awesome. But but before we move on to our herbal spotlight and our cooking segment, tell the people where they can find you and how they can work with.
speaker-1: Right. You can find me on LinkedIn under Dr. Angel Taylor. You can find me Instagram at NTF Collective Org. You can find me on Facebook at Dr. Angel Taylor or NTF Collective dot org. and my website. Yes. ⁓
speaker-0: will be below in the show notes. Well that's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom. I think this was a very powerful conversation. We'll have to have you back for sure. Thank you. Thanks so much. We'll be right back at our herbal spotlight. Nailed it. Okay, well welcome to our herbal spotlight and everything that you've heard Dr. Angela explain in our interview segment. We talked about how anger is really pain, that the nervous system get is never able to really stand down and just calm down and relax. So a person who can't sleep, who can't let things go
speaker-1: Hey, thank you. Thank you.
speaker-0: That's what's happening. So there are herbs. There's so much plant medicine that can really help with that. one that people might be a little not as familiar with, do you know what this is?
speaker-1: like it looks like time
speaker-0: Just kinda have a time look to it. But it's not time. It's an herb called Passion Flower. Passion Flower is actually very prevalent in in the southeastern United States. It's a very pretty flower. It's like has purple petals and stuff. But most of the ⁓ the plant is medicinal. and is really known, it's just as comparable to some antidepressant medications, one for one without the adverse side effects. It's passion flower. So ⁓ passion flower, some people think of it as like a sleeping herb. It does help you calm down enough and then you'll get a like a good restful sleep. But its primary action is on the GABA system, which is the Neurotransmitter pathway that regulates anxiety, agitation, and emotional activity. So when someone's depressed is showing up as irritability and anger, the nervous system is dysregulated, as you know. So passion flower specifically addresses that. And so the way that most people actually consume passion flour is in a tea or in a tincture. So for Dr. Angela today, I've already done a cold infusion for her. And so she'll get to try it. So I have some d I just took this with a cold infusion and I added some stevia leaves to it just to sweeten it up a so it wouldn't be too raw. And then we're gonna get her on air opinion while I'll read some more of the science of it. yeah. You should have a nice no matter how the traffic is going back, it should be nice and calm. Here you go.
speaker-1: smell it. ⁓ that smells good.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's it's very nice.
speaker-1: Mm. That's good. It tastes like something familiar. And I can't think of what that is, but it tastes familiar. Hmm. It almost tastes almost like a cross between peppermint. Yeah.
speaker-0: I can see that. Yeah, I can see that. Well, there's a randomized controlled trial in psychotherapy research found that passion flower extract has been as effective as as accepam, which is a prescription for anti-anxiety medication for general anxiety disorder with fewer side effects ⁓ and no impairment on your job performance. Also, there's a 2017 study in a neuropsychopharmacology journal confirmed that passion flower's GABA modulating activity. supports traditional use for anxiety, agitation, and sleep disruption. So if you're a person that's struggling with any of these things, passion flour is something that's very gentle, something you can really, really use to benefit. If you want to do like the cold infusion, you just need like two tablespoons, I mean two teaspoons steeped in about a a cup and a half, two cups of water. You can do it as quick as 10 minutes, or you can do an overnight ⁓ like I did for Dr. Angela and for Dr. Angel. Or you can do a tincture one to two times a day or you can do it acutely like when you feel the stress coming on, when you feel that anxiety start to to take on, you can actually take it like right then to help regulate you and bring it back down. There's not a lot of contraindications with this particular herb. Okay. ⁓ it is recommended not to use during pregnancy because it could stimulate uterine activity. it's not to be mixed with other like ⁓ psychoactive drugs or any like benzodiazepines or anything like that. You want to kind of keep those separate or work with your healthcare professional who has knowledge of herbs. to see if it's coun contraindicated for you, but it's pretty regarded as safe. So had you heard of ⁓ Passion Flour before?
speaker-1: Have not and where can we get
speaker-0: Yes, well I'll have links below from our dispensary you can get from there. But you want to buy herbs from a reputable seller. You want to make sure that they're organic, super You want to make sure there's they've been third party tested, so there's no like heavy metals or things like that. But you can also go to most of your health food stores. If you're in a like Charlotte, like a Berry Brook or an organic marketplace here, they carry the herbs and you can buy them there. and then there the some the reputable ones like Mountain Rose herbs or ⁓ Star Star West, like they're on Amazon as well. So they're very accessible nowadays within the United States specifically where you can have access and and do this because it's something like you really, really feel the difference. And tea should be a part of people's ritual because it's really medicine. And people think it was just a tea, but yeah, it's really medicine. It's really medicine. So I'm glad. I'm glad you had a semi-new experience. Yeah. Doesn't taste too bad, you know. ⁓ this was good. Okay, awesome. Well, we're going to transition to our be wealthy Nigetarian kitchen segment. Yes. So we always like to pull in a dish and relate it to ⁓ what's happening. Okay. So today we're making that connection direct from everything we've been talking about with the nervous system. so that's what this dish really is. So this is our coconut lemongrass wild rice bowl with seasoned mushrooms and ⁓ garlic sauteed vegetables. That's lot right so just talk through the ingredients, wild rice is not actual rice. It's my favorite rice to use. Okay. It's actually an aquatic grass seed that's native to North America and because it's a seed it's very high in protein It's low in starch, so it's very low in the glycemic index. So oppose that to white rice, which you know spikes you really high. Yeah. It has no really no nutritional value, right? So that's what makes that part really, really good. And it has a nice chew that holds up ⁓ beautifully in a bowl. It holds up well in the refrigerator. it it can it freezes really well. it has far more antioxidants than your traditional white or brown rice, especially with the black color, it's always gonna be higher in antioxidants. And it's a one of the top grain sources of zinc. Which is a critical for mood regulation. You need it for mood regulation and for proper immune function. So this is one of the top ⁓ sources in the grains for zinc. Now the mushrooms are like the star of the dish. we're gonna sear them in a pan, ⁓ that meaty texture, right? ⁓ but they're also rich in a potent antioxidant ⁓ that have neuroprotective properties. A lot of the mushrooms do, and it's also rich in beta glucans, which help with more immune resiliency, which is helping you under stress. Right, so we're replenishing the things that are depleted when you have stress. And then the coconut lemongrass base. So I use I cook the white rice in coconut milk. So that's our fat source of the dish, so we can absorb all of our fat-soluble nutrients. And I added in some cut-up lemongrass, which we'll take out at the very end for a depth of flavor because it adds some warmth and some depth to it, a little bit of natural sweetness. and that all that works together really well. And so why the dish for this episode? So chronic emotion ⁓ suppression. And nervous system dysregulation completely depletes all the nutrients. I spoke on this earlier, specifically our magnesium, our zinc, our B vitamins, our antioxidants. So when you're stressed, your cortisol through the roof, those four for sure, are wiped out, right? Doesn't matter how healthy you're eating, you have to increase it more because of what your body's having to consume because of the stress that you're taking on. So in this bowl replenishes all of those. We're replenishing the magnesium, the zinc, the B vitamins, the antioxidants. So we have the wild rice for the zinc and the B vitamins, we have the mushrooms. For the ergothionine and the immune support. We have a coconut for the medium chain fatty acids, right? And that crosses the blood brain barrier and helps support cognitive function. And then the vegetables for folate and vitamin C, both rapidly depleted when you're under sustained stress. So this one dish pulls in everything we talked about, hopefully in a tasty way, and you'll let us know. Yeah. Now, off camera, just ⁓ sake of time, I went ahead and cooked the wild rice because wild rice takes a little minute, right? It's because of the seed, you actually can eat it raw. It can actually just sit on the counter like in a brine. And after for me, two days, it's ready to go. Okay. ⁓ or you can cook it in like a pressure cooker, or you can cook it in the on the stovetop. So it takes about if you want it to be not super al dente, it takes about 50 minutes to an hour. Right. So we didn't have time to just cook that on air. So I went ahead and prepared that. So again, I cooked it in ⁓ the the the link will be down below, but cooked it in the coconut milk, added in some garlic for background flavor, add in some lemongrass, and ⁓ vegetable broth and some ginger, a little bit of turmeric and a pinch of you know. A chef's pinch of salt. Okay. Okay. And I just let that boil for about an hour, and that's what that is. So the first thing we're gonna do here, we're gonna go ahead and season up our mushrooms. So mushrooms are filled with water. And so since I'm not blooming any spices, we're not gonna use any oil. A lot of people start off by just loading the pan with oil, right? Now you're adding three, four, five, seven hundred calories because one little tablespoon is 120 calories. We don't need to do that. So most of our vegetables are filled with water, it's already good to go. So I have a cast iron pan here. that we're going to start off and put our mushrooms in. And see so much water come out of them. Now I've marinated the mushrooms with just a little bit of coconut aminos, smoke, and smoked paprika. And you'll see a lot of mush a lot of water come out of this. So I'm now gonna turn up the heat and I'm gonna let those sit for a second. And while that is waiting, we're gonna do a rapid fire. So people can get to know you while we're letting this cook. So we're not just watching water boil as they say All All right, so Dr. Angel, morning person or night owl?
speaker-1: Night owl, do like mornings at all. Everyone knows that about me.
speaker-0: The mill that always makes you feel like yourself again.
speaker-1: tails are Jamaica curry goat.
speaker-0: Here we go. I'm assuming not the vegan ones. No.
speaker-1: Not the vegan oxtail, not the vegan curvy colour.
speaker-0: One thing people always get wrong when they ⁓ first meet you.
speaker-1: thing people always get wrong when they first meet me. Well, I think that they get my age wrong. I can see that. Yeah. People always think that I'm younger than I am. Yeah. Yeah. Right, exactly. So they definitely always think that and it and it's so funny because a lot of people that are younger than me usually say, by the time you get to my age, you Yeah. I'm okay. ⁓
speaker-0: You know black don't crack it. Be like, all right, well we'll roll with that. What does a good day feel like in your body?
speaker-1: Waking up late, which late to me is probably around eleven AM. That will be the perfect day to wake up around eleven AM. Go downstairs outside and sit outside a nice cool breezy seventy degree day. Wow. Yes. Okay.
speaker-0: ⁓ my Yeah, I'm definitely a morning person. That is like eleven. I've done half my day by then.
speaker-1: Eleven o'clock, I'm just like getting ready so even though I got here at eleven thirty, super early.
speaker-0: I bring you Thank you. Yes. That was a sacrifice.
speaker-1: No list I'm in Gastonia, you guys know trial traffic is. Yes. So it wasn't terrible today, but yeah.
speaker-0: Eighty five is a disaster. Yeah. Okay, I totally get you on that. Okay, the last thing that genuinely made you laugh out loud. Ooh, last night. Last night.
speaker-1: The last thing. Matt Ross Listen, I laugh so hard. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's fantastic. I'm s I'm I did not know. I was not in the loop on that. Okay. Absolutely. I really like him.
speaker-1: You would have went to the show. My goodness. I I don't know what we're gonna do to get any more on social media or more in the note.
speaker-0: She has to keep me plugged in like a rabbit. Okay. thing that you do every single day that has nothing to do with work. First thing that comes to your mind.
speaker-1: I guess drink coffee. Yes.
speaker-0: Every day. Okay. a book, film or conversation that changed how you see people.
speaker-1: Film, possibly. Well, you know what? I guess conversation would be my answer. A conversation that changed how I see people. I I think that I can't think of one specific conversation, but just conversations in general, especially in networking. Yeah. has has made me feel different about people overall. Yeah.
speaker-0: I can see that. I get that. If you were not in healthcare and helping people with their mental health in particular, what would you be doing? Well
speaker-1: Well also you know I'm co owner of Silver Sounds which have
speaker-0: Let the people know. Let the people know. on ones and twos, baby
speaker-1: Right. So I mean I will be doing that which i which I am doing. I think just in both of things that I'm doing, it's so important to enjoy what you do. Which ⁓
speaker-0: So you're saying no matter what you'll be doing, you will be enjoying it.
speaker-1: You need yes, I definitely would be enjoying, but it's important for people to enjoy what you do anyway. Cause that changes things. Yeah.
speaker-0: It changes everything. Yeah. 'Cause if you knew my background and now that I'm doing something I actually love, it's so away from what I was doing. I wish but what are you smelling? This aroma. ⁓
speaker-1: you guys to smell this this smells so good aroma ⁓ my goodness it smells so good and you know ⁓ I love this part of the of whole thing because it gives a chance to for people to see how easy it is to prepare meals yeah yes and you don't have to be a chef
speaker-0: No oil. Yes. So you do not have to be a shelf. Everyone thinks, well, you a kid's yours? No. I was four hundred pounds. And you can still eat food that's delicious and good for you. You just have to know a little couple of little things.
speaker-1: So why did you get to four hundred pounds? I mean you can
speaker-0: ⁓ no, it's fine. Yeah, that's part of my story. So I was pretty much always fat. Okay. I had everything, so ⁓ my system was mess. just really like now it's called polymetabolic ovarian ⁓ syndrome, formerly known as PCOS, diabetes, high cholesterol, a huge gorder, hypothyroidism. all the things on and on and on. So I just literally had no energy. And so a lot of people assume when you're morbidly obese that you're just sitting around eating all day long. When it's quite the opposite, you don't even eat that much because you sleep half the time or so tired. But when you do eat, it's not the things that are best for your body. And when your body is chronically in a I'm gonna store everything okay. I don't feel safe for various reasons. You just pack it on. And because there's some people that when they're stressed, they naturally lose everything, get super skinny. Yeah. which is just as unhealthy as people who pack it on right ⁓ when they're super stressed and I was the type that will just pack it on. And so and culturally and you might I don't know if this is so much in Jamaica but definitely in Nigeria, like you being fat and someone saying you're fat is not done as a hatred thing. It's just a fact. It's like I'm clearly not skinny. Yeah. Right. it's not like you're fat and shaming you. It's like you're fat. Like yeah. They care about your accomplishments. What are you doing? What have you done? Right? That's how you can get shamed in in my culture. So it was like I know I'm fat, but I can't even I don't even have the energy to care about that because I have so much stuff I have to accomplish. Okay. And I just need energy to get something done. and so once I I watched a documentary that changed my life and I realized, well, I'm just gonna try this, you know, clean way of eating and see what happens because if it gives me energy, I thought all the diseases and stuff I had were for life. Okay. Based on what my ⁓ medical team at that time was telling me, like, Well, yeah, so take this pill, do this, do that, and then at thirty five I'll give you hysterectomy and that's it. I'm like, well, I'm twenty two. Now, so what am I gonna do until I'm 35? Yes. Continue to suffer like this. So yeah, all the needless suffering that happens. Wow. So it changed my whole life. And so once I saw how powerful food is and how it's actually medicine, the first medicine that should happen, I've devoted my life to spreading this message to people that you do not have to suffer at all. You really don't. So here we have our veggies ⁓ again, because with water, we have some bok choy, the stem part, and we have some red bell pepper. I'm gonna put it in this hot pan. Again, it does not need any oil, there's plenty of liquid within it. It will not burn. I'm gonna go ahead and add in some garlic as our f flavor enhancer. Let those have become friends in there. All right. And we still want the vegetables to have texture. They should not be mush. Okay. We're gonna add in the bok choy leaves at the end so that they still are vibrant green. A lot of people put in greens and by the end they're basically brown. the nutrients are in the liquid, you know. So you wanna make sure that your vegetables are still alive. You just wanna see the color, how you know that is that the color just get a little bit brighter. Even with the red bell pepper, you'll see it kind of change and get a little brighter. The little greens here on the bok choy. You'll see that get a little bit brighter. Once I see that get a little bit brighter, we'll add in our tops. And then we'll adjust for seasoning. I'll put a little bit of seasoning on it. You can use just salt and pepper, or you can use whatever seasoning you like. I have like a mix of like a salt, pepper, garlic blend. It was our house seasoning at my last restaurant. It was our house seasoning blend. Salt, pepper, and garlic powder mixed together. And we're not necessarily seeking color, maybe just a little bit of light browning, that way we know. Everything's been kissed by the cast iron pan. And if you're a person that has low iron, cooking in cast iron actually helps you absorb more iron, especially because you're pairing it with vitamin C. Vitamin C pairing with iron-rich foods helps absorb far more of the iron. So, especially for our women who might be on the anemic side, make sure you're always consuming vitamin C rich foods with whatever iron source you're consuming. What are your thoughts on this? Do you bok choy and ⁓
speaker-1: Voktory love, yeah, and it's like again. I wish you guys could smell this, it smells so good.
speaker-0: Yeah. Who's gonna visit smell a vision people? Okay. Gee, right. It needs to be on the horizon.
speaker-1: smells so
speaker-0: It's starting to look good. I'm seeing some browning, slight browning happening on the bok choice stems. Yes? Yes. Okay. You still like crunching your vegetables?
speaker-1: fine with crunch. Yeah, I don't like soggy vegetables. ⁓ don't like it soggy.
speaker-0: ⁓ okay, that's you were saying like Okay, perfect. So I'm going to toss in our greens at this point.
speaker-1: Especially for Vok Choi. It's so good.
speaker-0: So good crunchy. ⁓ gosh. And we're just looking for the greens to get bright. Once the greens kind of wake up, we'll add back in our mushrooms. huh. And then we'll throw a little seasoning on there and then we will assemble the dish and Doctor Angel will let us know her thoughts.
speaker-1: know why did you take this out and why did you cook it first?
speaker-0: I cooked it first because if I crowded the pan, those would just steam. would change the texture. And because they're filled with so much water, ⁓ I didn't want that. I wanted the texture to still have like a meaty chew to it. Yep. So this whole dish has about twenty five grams of protein. it stores very well for a meal prep. ⁓ it's filled with fiber. I think it's 14 grams of fiber in the dish, which is super important because most Americans do not get enough fiber.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Right, most people talking about where's your protein? Like, where is your fiber? Okay, where's your fiber, people? Right. And if you're eating a plate of beige food, the brown food, it is not healthy. All right, follow the nourish by nitrogen method, the PF3 framework. So you have protein, fiber, fat, and flavor. Okay. You follow that framework. If you're missing one of those components, you do not have a complete meal. All right. You need all those components to be able to absorb all of your nutrients, be it water soluble and fat-soluble. You need the fiber to have proper immune health and digestive health and regular yeah, so you can eliminate properly and regularly. You have to have all these things. You need color on your plate because you need all the antioxids. They all give you something different with the different colors, right? So everything is fried, deep fried and brown on your plate. So you've got fried chicken and mackerel. When everything's brown, you know, it's working. Not the fried chicken.
speaker-1: Chicken, we love that.
speaker-0: I see that we're green here. We're bright green. So I'm gonna toss this back in so it doesn't get cold. And we're gonna turn off our eye.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Turn it off. And then we're gonna sprinkle in some freshness. We have some fresh cilantro. Always add something fresh. I shouldn't have put this at the bottom, but at the bottom I've got some fresh green onion. Okay. And we got a little bit of seasoning. need much. That might have been not even quite half a teaspoon. You can smell that, right? Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: All right. And what did that take? Like fifteen minutes probably?
speaker-0: Not even that. Not even that. All right. So we're gonna get your on air taste test going. So what you see on top is a lemongrass that's on top. And again, this is cooked in the coconut milk. So our fat source is here and most of our a lot of our protein is here as well. Nice foundation.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. ⁓
speaker-0: She loves veggies, y'all. She loves veggies, so wanted to do a veggie for dish for her that's different. Pardon Four percent. All right. Angel. All right.
speaker-1: Bless the hands that prepare this meal. Hello.
speaker-0: Thank you. it. Tell people what you what you think.
speaker-1: Mmm. Right, good. I can I can taste the salt. Mmm, I can tell you coconut milk with. We could put a lot of coconut milk in the makeup. You guys is the right amount ⁓ the bottle. It's not overcooked, not undercooked. I don't even know if that was fifteen minutes.
speaker-0: French. No, it's not. Not even close.
speaker-1: Simple, look at that. sleep. I wake up at eleven o'clock tomorrow. I gotta check my calendar. That would be so amazing I don't have to wake up early tomorrow. This good for you. And thing about I'm very I'm a very picky eater. Yeah. I don't like a lot of things. Yeah, thank you. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. Okay, it's all working. Thank you. Thank you for your openness and willingness to do this. You doing this matters more than you know. You've really helped a lot of people who are watching and listening. And thank for doing Form Choice with a Niger Goddess. And until time, people, heal naturally, live vibrantly. ⁓
speaker-1: Yay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: Yes, ma'am. thought that I was going to going into a room of and comfort and a lot of times it was tense. Very tense. Yes, it w a lot of times it was very tense. Many times, of the reasons that I loved hospice is because I felt like you would get closure. But family members fought a lot while the person is passing away. They felt like things were not settled. They felt like he loved you more. You didn't
speaker-0: I was not expecting you to say While the person is passing
speaker-1: participate in the care you're only showing up now because a will is present or pending money and then another thing that was really a big part of it was step wife or stepchildren.
speaker-0: Money. Second friend to the ex wife and the current wife.
speaker-1: Yeah. it was very tense. And it was a lot in a lot of cases because sometimes it was this is my home, this was my home, and you ripped it out. So it was very tense. Alive? Alive.
speaker-0: It is ten. While the person is still technically Did you ever sense from the the patient that was in the in the death process that they were aware that that was happening?
speaker-1: Sometimes they were aware. A lot of times patient had their eyes closed. They can't hear. They can still hear. And we all know that that's one of the things. That's the last sentence. And it would be days that this person is quiet and family is arguing or something, all of a sudden the patient just outbursts. Either, no, stop and what? Yes.
speaker-0: I don't know what I was expecting, but I wasn't expecting this.
speaker-1: Ha ha ha
speaker-0: And the the family members where I've been there and their hospice transition, there was none of what you're speaking of. So I was I don't know, I guess I was based off my own lived experience. Okay. But with your expertise, clearly that's not it you're saying like that was more typical?
speaker-1: That was very typical. That was very typical. And and sad.
speaker-0: Terribly sad. Sad. I mean, if anything, wait till the person passes for you for all this nonsense. Right.
speaker-1: And I would tell my kids all the time weddings and funerals bring out the worst in people.
speaker-0: And I get that, but not at the hospice center or or at your home when you're going through hospice in care like. So when you witnessed that walking in you were expecting peace and walking out, you were tense as well or you were
speaker-1: was intense I felt I felt because I would feel as though I a situation for that minute. You know right. I brought the piece as much as I could, just like reminding them what's important. Your loved one is the most important thing. You can't think about yourself in this time.
speaker-0: You brought the piece.
speaker-1: know. Okay, I know.
speaker-0: think it's very s maybe I don't have the proper understanding but it just seems very selfish. This is not about you right now. Right. So I just feel like of what's going on, you have to be r mature and put things to the side and be there for that person in their final moment so they can transition peacefully. Yeah. And if a person can't bring themselves to do that then you shouldn't be there. It that's my initial thought and I don't know if I don't have enough context to have a different opinion, but that's that's how I currently
speaker-1: No, you have enough context and that's how it should be. But a lot of people don't think about that. Which is sad.
speaker-0: Okay. Okay. You have said you watched too many people die with regret and depression. At what point did you realize you were seeing a pattern and not just individual suffering?
speaker-1: Know at what point, but I know that it completely changed my life being a hospice nurse. Completely changed my life because I knew that that was something that I did not want to happen to me or people that I care about and people that I don't care about. Like you don't realize until it's too late that tomorrow is just not promised. And what are we gonna do today just to reach one and teach somebody and show that we care just live a life of joy, right?
speaker-0: So what did that look like? How did it because most of the time when people in hospice, at least midpoint to endpoint, they're not really speaking. So how did you recognize regret or depression that if they weren't able to vocalize it? Like they they are
speaker-1: They are speaking. Yeah. A lot of people smoke till the end. And you know that's the thing that people think, you're in hospice, you're really no.
speaker-0: ⁓ I guess again from my f encounters they were not able to sponge. Yeah, they're at that point where they're on sponges for water, like
speaker-1: Okay, yeah. No, I like I remember this one person, it was an older lady, and I forgot exactly what was her diagnosis, but this lady was physically fit. She would walk around, every time we go to visit her, we're like, How you feeling? She's like, I woke up again today. Like she was so sad that she woke up. She was sad that she woke up. She's like, sh she says, I've done everything.
speaker-0: To a sad?
speaker-1: I'm ready to go. Like, yeah. So so so I'm just saying that to say that there were people that were physically fit, they were on hospice. You know, you don't and that's the that's something that I wish that people realize that being on hospice doesn't mean that you are dying tomorrow. Right. You know, sometimes being a hospice means that you choose that you're not gonna get aggressive treatment anymore for whatever illnesses that there are. or the doctors have told you there's nothing else we can do. Yes. But you don't have to go to palliative care first. You can go straight to hospice.
speaker-0: Isn't it palliative care and then hospital? Okay. Right. Well th I guess it depends on that person's situation. Yes. If you go straight to hospice it's because it's we're assuming that the end is absolutely coming, but palliative care there's a chance at a turnaround? More of a turn.
speaker-1: The end is well, the based on your numbers. You know, we do a calculation and based on your numbers, it I mean, everybody's end is coming, right? Right. So, but it depends on what you want to do. I mean, because you could decide today, hey, you know what? whatever I have going on, I'm not gonna get treatment. You can go on hospice and they keep doing the scale for you. And it's like, okay, have you decreased since the last time we did the scale? Yeah, but you can be on hospice for a while. Well, it depends on what the numbers are 'cause especially people with Alzheimer's, they are on the hospice for more than a year. 'Cause people with dementia or Alzheimer actually live a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Which is so sad sometimes because watching your l you know, you can't they can't remember anything but
speaker-0: Here they are.
speaker-1: So yeah, so it it was different, it depends. I know.
speaker-0: Yeah, okay. Okay, ⁓ most people your position would process what they witness and continue to work. You made a career pivot. What specific moment moved you from witnessing to deciding to do something about it?
speaker-1: There was a specific moment. I know that just with everything, seeing people kill themselves from depression, seeing my own family members just living with sadness, seeing my friends living with sadness. And I always feel like I'm like the strongest friend or family member. just with everything, with politics, like we what are we what are we gonna do? And it it takes person to make a difference, right? So ⁓ not me? ⁓
speaker-0: Why not men? I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I love that. Okay, your focus is men specifically, right? Yes. But in a lot of ways the person you're really speaking to is the woman beside him. How did you arrive at that as a center of your work?
speaker-1: Because I think that women a gift, right? We women are a gift. And I think that men need to be vulnerable with. And it's to be vulnerable with a woman than be vulnerable with another guy. So I think that that helps like just being able to be an encourager.
speaker-0: We're
speaker-1: for your mate and letting them know it's okay, like I got you. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's very powerful. The mental health conversation has been dominated by a certain kind of language, vulnerability, openness, asking for help. From what you have observed, how well does that language actually land with the men that you're trying to reach?
speaker-1: It does not land with them. Yeah. Right? You know that. It does not land land with them because they don't have a safe space. They're called names if they show weakness, but then also it's generational because to teach our men to be strong also. Like what what man or woman is saying, Hey, it's okay, cry today? Like you just don't teach that. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. You talk about depression showing up as anger in men. Walk me through what that actually looks like. Not necessarily the clinical definition I'll I'll add on there, but what it looks like and sounds like in a relationship, at the dinner table, in your car ride home, like
speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's and I think that we call it snapping and I hope people know what that is. Like you just ask a simple question, the person snaps at you for no reason. ⁓
speaker-0: Or the the under the surface simmering anger. Yes. Like this so you're always like
speaker-1: Yeah, like wh why where did that come from? Why are you talking to me that way? A for n for and sometimes it's just for no reason. We don't know why, right?
speaker-0: And you're like, I'm already trying my best to support you and you keep dumping on me and then
speaker-1: You snap you're snapping at me for no reason. Like what what is it? Yeah. But then it's hard you you it's hard to figure out and it's hard to if you're someone in an abusive relationship verbally or physically because you've seen this person at their best. Yeah. And now if I leave them, am I abandoning them? But yeah, it just looks like it just looks like they're just snapping and And when you get to the core of what it is they're angry about maybe they're not making enough money because also the other thing is women are dominating everything now, right? Yeah. So men don't have sports anymore.
speaker-0: Is that I'm not a sports person, I didn't know that's
speaker-1: Just saying, like now women are taking over sport.
speaker-0: ⁓ I was aware. Okay. good to know.
speaker-1: Yeah. Like I mean, 'cause before it would just be everything, let's say men's basketball. Now it's women's basketball. Okay. You know, in type of other athletics, women are taking that over. And also women are becoming more spectators too, where it would be like, Okay, this is the guy thing. And the other that I know that men used to like was going to the barber shop. There probably are still some barbershops but now they're salon suites, so you don't have that interaction. And now it's the other thing that you can't even talk there because you go in and now there's women in there. And also women getting haircuts. Yeah. So I wonder, you know, I really have to ask that question and I wonder if some men are listening, like, do you guys feel like there's nothing left for us? 'Cause I feel like that sometimes.
speaker-0: female barbers as well. Yeah, yeah. your husband feel does he feel he has a place to go with men outside of his outside of his friend group and them planning something? Does he feel like they can just go somewhere and just be guys?
speaker-1: Mm no. Because you can't even go fishing anymore 'cause women are doing that. Can't go golf anymore. Women are doing that. Like, so is there really something left for guys? I don't I don't think so.
speaker-0: just for a counterbalance, what are the spaces that women go to that
speaker-1: Well you know what I think that women create their own spaces where men really don't, right? Because women are having day parties, women only. It's a movies for women only. Like women are doing the book club, women only, but like so many things are women only where you don't necessarily see something that a man is planning.
speaker-0: Because that skill set is is more natural towards than men. Not that they are incapable by any means, but it's more natural for a woman to create a space. Right.
speaker-1: Even these, you know, summits or gallas or stuff. It's women focused,
speaker-0: The ones I'm aware of in
speaker-1: Yeah. And then if a man is there, even though a man is there, we kinda walk in like, What is he doing in here? I thought it was
speaker-0: How'd you get a ticket?
speaker-1: money. But w don't we do that? Like this I this was
speaker-0: Yeah, that's true. I'm just trying to spoil.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Yeah. Hmm. That's definitely food for thought. What you male type depression, the standard diagnos diagnostic criteria, this is like one of the few areas where the research is really female based ⁓ everything literally like when it comes like hormonal health or anything with health is always based on the man and then they scale it down for women, right? But here depression presents with in women it presents a sadness, withdrawal, tearfulness. Loss of interest in men, the same neurochemical state frequently presents as irritability, risk taking behavior, increased alcohol or drug use, emotional numbness. Yes. But the literature, because it's really more based on women, there's not a lot of research on how that presents in men. And so the serotonin and dopamine depletion is identical in both men and women in terms of why they're feeling a certain way, but how they emote that. shows up differently. And so that and then when even when you hear commercials or anybody talking about it, you still think of it as the sadness and the withdrawal. And that's really based on women. So the outward expression is what is different. And there's not a lot of conversation or research, in-depth research comparable to what they have for women. And that's why so many men specifically go undiagnosed for years. Right. they don't look depressed. Right. Right. Based on what we believe depressed is, they just look angry or the people around them respond in anger, not understand that's depression that's underneath that. And the suicide rate in the United States among men is four times higher than that of women, despite being no diagnosed, despite women being diagnosed with depression at twice the rate. So there's more than twice the rate of women that are diagnosed as depressed, four times more men actually commit suicide. So that's a significant gap. Right. right there. ⁓ And that's because it's unrecognizable in terms of how the man presents because no one identified him as depressed. They just saw him as angry or or something like that. So I think you bringing that up is it really sheds a light on the problems and why we should have these types of conversations. And we have a mutual friend who's actually putting together a summit just for men. Right. ⁓ and their mental health and their safe space. Right. Because I don't ever hear and I think of a summit is either COVID or for women. Right. So I you know yeah it's just really important like we have this conversation that you have decided to focus on men. and how the support of that man, what that looks like. So I'm looking forward to digging deeper into that.
speaker-1: Then the other thing is, do men know they are depressed? No. that we're laughing, but
speaker-0: That was my personal opinion, not my clinical opinion. But from what I'm what I have seen anecdotally. Yeah. No. Right.
speaker-1: They yeah, and that's the other thing.
speaker-0: I think even having that label might feel feminizing to them as well. Right. But emasculating to men that present in a more in a in a male fashion or I forgot the what's the language for it. The partner in this scenario is not oblivious. She sees it. Yeah. She knows what she's looking at. What is she getting wrong when she tries to help? Not out of ignorance, but out of love and absolute desperation. ⁓
speaker-1: That's exactly what I'm Sometimes it's the roach.
speaker-0: Clarify.
speaker-1: How do you approach someone makes a difference? And when you approach someone, because are you approaching them lovingly? Are you approaching them anger, which I've been guilty of a few times, you know, because I'm feeling like you're angry at me, I'm gonna show you what you're showing me and not thinking at that minute.
speaker-0: About when she okay, let's say that the spouse for let's say the wife, sees anger, and because of you know depression being linked to how women emote depression, she doesn't recognize his anger as depression. Right. He just sees his anger directed towards her. And she tries to approach him lovingly, but he continues snapping at her and giving her back anger to the point where she gets really upset and it's like, look, you know, so if if it's like that, how does she how does she help?
speaker-1: She's gonna have to just give him space. You have to give him space, but you also have to take time out for yourself. The spouse, both people have to take time out for yourself. But as a woman, I think that just leave it to time sometimes, right? You gotta leave it to time, give him some space, come back and approach something. And my favorite thing to do is write a letter. Like.
speaker-0: Just space. the for the spouse.
speaker-1: Because if you write a letter to that person, they'll be able to and maybe not a letter or a text, though people do people even write letters. I like because I like writing letters and write that letter, let them read it. ⁓ their own time and in their own voice. Because when I'm reading a letter, I'm reading it in my own voice. Right? Yeah. Rather than hearing your voice, your voice could be annoying at that time. For that
speaker-0: I personally do. Okay. So they have they can process it on their own. sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Right. So yeah, that'll probably
speaker-0: Approach how much space is enough space? Because and again this could be anecdotal. A person I've met who is like that, I mean, it could be months.
speaker-1: Yeah, months is too long.
speaker-0: Right. So what where is the count if the person is truly depressed, they don't recognize it, and let's say even the spouse becomes aware the person's depressed, presenting as anger, and gives them the space, writes the letter, and the person's still snappy, the person is still distant. like what does the person what does the spouse do to support them? Because they see that their partner is spiraling and partner doesn't want help in that way. You know, they feel like they'll figure it out they got it and they don't don't call them depressed, don't say they have a problem, they don't want to hear it like that. So what does she do?
speaker-1: Well, she's gonna have to seek counseling for both. First, you're gonna have to get it for yourself. And then you're gonna have to get it for both. your husband is not willing, it's almost like you're gonna have to do an ultimatum, right? Because it probably is gonna make it worse, but you have it's worse already, right? So what what other things are we gonna have to do? Like we gotta get to rock bottom before we can go up.
speaker-0: For whom? For Yeah. Doesn't that does that make it worse potentially?
speaker-1: And if the ultimatum is gonna be what it takes to get you to the other side, then that's what you have to do.
speaker-0: Otherwise, if you've done everything you can do then then the alternative the person still doesn't agree is to part ways. Right. To protect yourself. Yes.
speaker-1: And then try to work it from the outside. But I mean, what else can you do? Yeah, like what right, like what else can you do besides calling his mom? Like I'm telling your mom. sometimes I think with certain situations, I'm gonna put this out in the open and I'm gonna tell your friends, I'm gonna put this on social media. Like
speaker-0: Right. That's what I was asking. What else? Ha ha ha ha ha. you don't not not to keep it private? Right. Don't keep it private.
speaker-1: I'm not gonna keep it private if 'cause is it. ⁓
speaker-0: What does what does not keeping it private look like in a way that still ultimately helps a situation where he doesn't feel like you're being spiteful or petty or or just putting your business out there? Like yeah. What does that look like putting it out publicly in a way that's still helpful towards
speaker-1: th well I think it depends on who you put it out to first. Like I s if the mom is around, I'm gonna tell your mom. Or I'm gonna tell sensible family members. And not in a gossip
speaker-0: Okay. So if he doesn't have that, say his family's deceased or the family is not the best character. Right. I'm just trying to give different snare narrative for different watchers or di listeners. W what's the next step?
speaker-1: The next step is that I'm going to tell other people. if you have a church family, I'm gonna tell the church. I'm gonna tell the pastor. Like you have to start telling people ⁓ you've gotten to the end. You know, because of course when you get married, they say don't tell your business because people are gonna gossip. But if you've done everything else, what else is there to do but to get help from other people that ⁓ tell someone that he respects?
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: 'Cause if you tell someone that he respects, that person reaches out and is like, hey, and I mean, there's a difference I feel in a mate that if this mate is so severely angry that all of this stuff it worse, then there's seriously something wrong with him. Like, you know what I mean? Like this is beyond just real just anger. Like maybe he's like psychotic or bipolar or something. That is like a real chemical imbalance.
speaker-0: How does that how does that look if the p that same person might be struggling with addiction on top of that?
speaker-1: That is, yeah, that is the worst. And and I mean, just like I'm saying it, like, yeah, he some real help. And know, I used to love those shows that came on TV where it would be you're you walk in and all your family members are there to try right trying to get you to do something. And and that's like one of those rock bottom things where like, yeah, but I you know, I mean ⁓ The things that I wanna address is not that severity. Trying to prevent it from getting from that. Like that, that is just, yeah, that's like the saddest rock bot. ⁓ my goodness. I can't even imagine. And prayers go out to anyone that's dealing with that right now, because that's a lot. Yeah.
speaker-0: You're trying to prevent it from getting to that. Yeah, I'm glad you touched on that. So that I think we covered a spectrum right with that in terms of what the supporting spouse or partner could do. Yeah. For the for the the man that's in their life, whether it be, you know, whether whatever their spouse is. Right. Okay. Well, there's a version of support that feels like pressure and a version that actually opens a door. What is the difference practically? how a partner shows up for the man whose depression is presenting as anger.
speaker-1: Yeah. know, I think that church is of the best options. Like get you gotta get him to church and get him to ⁓ ⁓ couples groups, try to do outings together, but I feel like church is like the biggest help at first.
speaker-0: Like men's groups. Yep. That's the initial first step. Yes. In terms of public awareness, public in that sense and being around other people where it could possibly be a new safe space for him. And just playing devil's advocate, what if that person is an atheist or you know, what if that person doesn't believe in going to church? Right. How does what are the what's the alternative option? The alternative like meetup groups instead or say I don't know.
speaker-1: Right. I do not think meetup groups. No, I do not think meetup groups, but I think almost like plan your own thing. Him? Like plan No, you. ⁓ Like for at the spell. Like plan your own kind of meetup group per se, where you're inviting either couples or you're making a dinner to have people come and it's like, hey
speaker-0: The the supporting spouse, particularly this female, she can create the space for him. Right. If he is anti church for some you know, or anti whatever their religion or spirituality practices are.
speaker-1: Right. But I I believe and I hope that couples or even the spouse has people that you can lean on, right? Like yeah, like if you're isolated, you have to get out meet people.
speaker-0: You a hope. People if the man is isolated. Well okay, if either partner right, is isolated.
speaker-1: Or woman. Yes. You have to get out and meet people. Like you have to. Like w we need people. We need each other. We need to see how other people relate. And we need to see how it can be done better. Because we're not we're not the know all be all, you know. Like you can do something that I'm not realizing. And also I think that I love diversity because we all grew up different. So Even with like let's say the basic common cold. Some people take natural herbs, some people and it's like, wow, if someone shared that, I didn't know that. Like, wow. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, it opened a whole understanding that could enhance your life. Yes. Unknowingly if you hadn't been in a space or the room with different people had different experiences and different thought patterns. So that makes sense.
speaker-1: Right. Yeah. It I just love I just love areas, especially Charlotte, New York, where it's just so diverse with just so many different and
speaker-0: I hear the New York accent. Hey. Shout out to Brooklyn. Yeah, Brooklyn, okay.
speaker-1: So I think that that just makes such a big difference, right? Even being here when we first got here, it was like ⁓ as Charlotte, yeah. We first got here from New York, it was just like why are why are they why is everything so slow here? Like come on, got you know, we went to the store, like they're like, So how was your day? I got places to be, which I really didn't
speaker-0: Here isn't sure. Did
speaker-1: I did. And after a while it was just kinda like, you know what, this is nice.
speaker-0: What am I rushing all the time for work?
speaker-1: have no idea why I was rushing. I'm you. It was like, Yep, I'm home. to get here. Rush to get here. It was like for what? We just we was just used to that in New York. It's like, gotta go, gotta go, gotta go. But yeah, and it wasn't till the people here taught us to slow down. Take his breath. It's okay to find out what you're making with these onions and peppers that you just bought. What are you gonna make? What are you gonna make? And it's like your business.
speaker-0: Take a breath. Grocery store they're asking ⁓ wait Getting a little personal, right?
speaker-1: But it's okay. Now it's okay.
speaker-0: Yeah. I I do understand. Coming Nigerian culture, I would say it's a mishmatch between New York and Southern in a lot of ways. 'cause some people some people coming from a strictly American or Southern American mindset can see us as rude. Yeah. And it's not. They're just 'cause you walk in, they're like, What do you want? Right. Like you can't hear what what do you want? And it's like, Hi, how are you doing? How's your day? And all it's not necessarily like that. Yeah. So ⁓ and it's if you so if you go in there with that mindset
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: with a different culture, you know, because culture it's a different culture in New York. It's the same thing. So it's like you go there like they're so rude. So like, gosh, calm down. Like but you're taking your what you're used to in the southeast and taking it to the northeast and it doesn't work. Right. It's like you can't take that and take it to Cali. It's just totally different. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I get it. Well to put more of a clinical spin on what you just said, I took some notes. So there's a specific neurological reason why pressure and urgency from a partner can make it worse rather than better. When a man is in this state and is pushed to open up, to talk, ask about what he's feeling, his prefrontal cortex, which governs his emotional language and self-reflection, is already compromised by elevated cortisol. Okay. So he genuinely cannot access what she asking of him in that moment. She he really can't. So the request feels like a demand that he can't meet, which amplifies the shame. It amplifies the cortisol and shuts down the a prefrontal cortex further. And then it becomes this loop. Yeah. And then the research on co-regulation tells us that the nervous system of one person directly influences the nervous system of another. Yeah. So a calm, non-demanding presence that partner is not passive. It's the most clinically effective intervention available at that particular moment. So she doesn't have to fix it. She just has to regulate alongside it. And so just understand because he's doing this loop, he it feels like the demand, so it's not like he doesn't want to open up. But like the synapses are not sparking in between that because it's it's the brain chemistry is like off at that point. Right. So he just and then it makes it feel worse. And then it might get even more become even more snappy. So there's actually a lot of data to support why this loop tab, because you're I'm coming to help you, and you're still barking back at me, right? Because she feels like I've already endured this with you. I'm trying to help you, and you're still giving me your butt to kiss, right? And then so what do I do? You know, and then especially if she's not even aware of that. He's showing all these signs but it's actually depression and she's thinking he's being an asshole. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: think it goes back to again you have to take time out for yourself. The partner. You have to take time out for yourself and seek help for yourself because maybe it is your
speaker-0: The part that's dealing with the stress. That's always a possibility. It's always possible.
speaker-1: Right. Let's not let's not say that.
speaker-0: They say everytime you do this you got three points back at you, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, let's not say that the men are completely crazy 'cause sometimes there are women that are just like like
speaker-0: Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah.
speaker-1: It you see them right? Yeah. So sometimes you need help because sometimes there's women that are needy, that you need
speaker-0: Just too much. The dancing distress all the time and just can't get anything done, like right. And just weighing him down, not supporting and building together.
speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. So I think that sometimes in that in instances like that, it's like seek help and seek counseling for yourself because you never will be able to tell like that it's you.
speaker-0: think that's such a great point. It's something I talk about amongst my friends from the culture differences. So what I've noticed was females in the United States. I don't want to just say black females, but just in general, more females in the United States, they're not ⁓ raised general. These are generalities. Okay, don't shoot me. All right. Okay. These are generality. They're not raised the mindset to be a wife. Right. and so like in my culture, you're raised the mindset to be a wife, be a husband. You're raised in a we, not a I. Right. And what has become more and more supported via social media and trends and things, not saying that that's what it is, but what is promoted heavily currently is well he gotta have this and this and this and this. And if he don't have all this, like what are you bringing to the table? Because you have to be a table so that a man can have something to bring to it. Right. And so that means you need to have something in between the ears. You gotta have stuff going on so you can stand on your own. Right. So that way you all can compliment each other and build together. And and so that's how my culture is, but I don't see that as the prevalent culture in the United States. It's more like what can he do? How much money does he have? Is he this tall? Is he this this all these check boxes? And then it's like you can't where where is the part where you all build together and and create something new together and have a and have that mindset? Yeah right? Because you want these ⁓ a man, a man who already has all those boxes checked, he's probably already married because that woman already invested the time right to get that man to that spot, right? You have to be willing to say, okay, he's got the good raw materials. He's not a bum. He's not just playing video games all day or something like that and ⁓ just not contributing in life. But he's got the raw materials. He's doing these things and together we can take it to the next step because that's why a woman's supposed to help amplify. And that's what we do. We create and we amplify. So as long as you have good raw materials, you can do that. And I just don't see that or hear that in terms of ⁓ the very limited T V or exposure I have and the very limited times I'm I actually might scroll on social media, it's not positive for marriage. It's not positive for long term deep committed relationships. It it's like it's very selfish. It's like, okay, and the second you step outside this box, you're out next. Yeah. I'm like, how how is that building a lasting relationship? How does that work?
speaker-1: Right. But I think that I think that it's important for both parties to be mutual mutually acceptable of what you want. Because also a man, you know that she was a gold digger and you don't you didn't care.
speaker-0: And you You're saying he would have known in the beginning she would have got there, but he just wanted her anyway?
speaker-1: You you don't you don't care. You just want candy, right? You want this arm candy or you just keep going with it for whatever reason. Why? That that was also your fault.
speaker-0: Yeah, it takes two tango. Right. I if he signed up as in the beginning, don't be surprised that a year later she still has to
speaker-1: Yeah. Also the other thing, just like you you're saying, also, a lot of women don't even cook anymore. We weren't we weren't raised like that. But people
speaker-0: Don't understand it. Because I hear from one other time, well, you say that because you're a chef and all this and that. No. Right. So again, my culture, both the men and the women learn how to cook. They always say, like, you can't leave your hunger in a woman's hands, right? Because the man knows how to do it, but once you come together, that's more the that's the woman's responsibility. Right. Right. So you have there's more delineated sex roles in the culture, right? Doesn't mean that couple can't negotiate other things, but both parties know how to do but it's a woman's responsibility. Yeah. Here's just like and he better take me out and I want person I like has become like a cuss word or it's it's I don't understand it. Yeah. I do not understand it. And it's like if you have a man who's a chef who likes to cook learning, but that's cool. You sh you but you should still do that because they still really appreciate it. Right.
speaker-1: You know what? And I don't know if you know that I am Jamaican. I was born in Jamaica. Right. I was born in Jamaica. So I understand what you're saying because that's how we were raised also. So we were raised to cook every day, clean, wash clothes, do all of that, which I did that for a long time, no longer, 'cause I'm tired. but I think that social media has a lot to do with it. And I don't know how it changed or when it changed, but
speaker-0: That's
speaker-1: Social media has a lot to do with it. But I also think that parents have to raise their kids that way. Cause we still raise our kids. Hey, the guys, the sons, you have a girlfriend, open the door. Yes. So you ask her what she wants to eat, you treat her with respect if she comes to our house. And parents are not passing that along either.
speaker-0: feel like and this could be a this clip could go viral because it's like they were like well that's anti feminist and all that I don't I can't call myself any of that. I don't know what the labels and stuff are because I don't like to be put in that all I know is that you should do it. Yeah if you're in a this is not something you just do for any old body. Right. Okay. If you're this is a person headed towards marriage or you're married, you absolutely should do it and you should do it joyfully with not without the you know right you should do everything cheerfully as long as you're a partnership, right? Like he he has to be carrying his weight too. Yeah. Right. But you should do it with a joyful heart and and be willing to do it. And if it's a day you're sick, you don't feel well, it doesn't you know, he can step in and help or or or whatever. Right. Right. But in general you should do it. And I don't understand why that's a problem. I really don't. I don't
speaker-1: Right. But you know, I think that, I'm gonna put my daughter on the spot and my niece because I think ⁓
speaker-0: I forgot her name, she I I really loved her.
speaker-1: because I think that what they say is that they're like, you know, I can do bad by myself. ⁓ But ⁓ they feel like they would rather be by themselves. Like if I have to share some of that expenses or do that much for someone else, I'm not gonna do it. Is what they say.
speaker-0: Yeah you can All by yourself. And I feel like they can say it now in their twenties and thirties, okay, what about when you're in your sixties and seventies? You know, are built to compliment one one another. We're not built to be ice in isolation. We're built as social creatures, right? Yeah. Doesn't matter how introverted you are or how extroverted you are. We that's what the human experience is built upon. So this mindset, ⁓ I can do it okay, you and you'll be by yourself. Right. You absolutely be by yourself. Yeah. Yeah, you can keep playing right now and that's cool if you want to do this. Absolutely no judgment. Do what you choose to do. Because this is about informed choice, okay? That's why this call podcast called informed choice. So do what you feel like you want to do, but don't say you didn't know. Right? Because time goes by like that. Like that. Can you believe I feel like we just had New Year's how's half the year already gone? So when especially at the older you get, the faster time goes. So that's not something you you want. And I think when with how social media is and stuff right now,
speaker-1: If it's already June, it's the end of June.
speaker-0: I don't think they can see the long view because everything's about instant gratification. This is what I need now. Not thinking about well if I invest this now, what this can get me.
speaker-1: Right. If I plant the tree now, what's am I gonna have a big tree in no they want the they don't want the
speaker-0: Seeds. They want the chia pit version. They want the oak tree or the meringa tree that's you know gonna have some lasting power. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Shay you've been put on notice. Okay. Well you told me and you posted on LinkedIn when you needed support. Yes. And the response that changed something for you. Yeah. What did that moment teach you about what happens when someone who is always the strong one finally asks?
speaker-1: Yeah, like I said, that courage is contagious, right? And think that being courageous enough to put my business out there just to say, I'm tired, I need help, it's a lot. It really someone else permission to say, Man, I've been in the same thing. I've been doing feeling the same way. I just thought that it's not okay to share it because we have to be out here. We're small business owners, we have to be out. grinding, we have to do it. And so it really made a difference. And I'm glad I did it. Some people told me to take it down and I was like, no. And they were like, well, if I saw that on your page, I wouldn't want to ask you for help. And then you're not my customer. And that's okay. But other people became my customer because of that. Because they're like, ⁓ you showed that you're human. You showed that you were real. And and also I got help on other things that I needed. So people Yes. People just thought, I just saw you I would see you everywhere. I thought that you didn't need help. I thought everything is okay. And it's like, no, I was trying to be everywhere to be better. But yeah, that ⁓ so glad I did that post. If you didn't see it, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you can go back. I think that happened in March. Yeah, when I put that post down. Yeah. And and I ended up
speaker-0: Below.
speaker-1: Going to Florida, both of my parents live in Florida, ended up going to Florida for about a week and just did nothing. Like I was just like, I'm exhausted. Like I am exhausted. I think that maybe even posting that made me realize, like, am I depressed? Well, you know, so I think there was a little depression in there because thinking, I'm doing so much. Should I be further along in my business? Am doing the right thing? ⁓ So yeah, so that that post and the time off really helped and I know all that I'm doing is working because I'm here with you, which a blessing being here and just being able to share that and I think I think also telling you about post brought me here. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: It was powerful. Yeah, I really respect that. Okay. Nine years of hospice. What did you see the men specifically carrying that they had never said out loud to the people who loved them?
speaker-1: I think that they are were carrying regret because they never shared a lot. They never told people that they love them. They never, yeah, a lot of men, I mean black men, white men, all different nationalities, they they died with a lot of regret. And now you're trying to get all of this out ⁓ in. the few months or the few days that you have left and and I think that they feel like they let their family down because now they're dying. Which what can you do when you're dying and you got this chronic disease that you can't do anything about? And and this happens. Yeah, so men died with regret. So and that looked like them wanting to tell their family members that they love them. And I'm talking about these are people who are vegetarians who are avid runners who did everything perfect they're dying with small children.
speaker-0: Yeah. A woman is listening right now and she recognizes exactly what you're describing. She has been watching it for months or even years and she does not know what to do. Where does she start?
speaker-1: I would say that she has to start at a support group for herself, I mean, it's so many different places to start, but you have to be courageous enough to say something to someone that you can trust. So church, church group, female group, some a mentor, counseling.
speaker-0: For herself. And it's not putting your business out there, it's seeking
speaker-1: Help. It is seeking help. But who cares if you're putting your business out there?
speaker-0: Yeah. I'm saying that has like a negative con negative connotation and it stops people from
speaker-1: And we have to stop that. Mm-hmm. Cause how can we help one another if we're gonna be judgmental? We like we have to stop that. And I think that social media is good for one thing that I like is that it's you less judgy in some aspects because some people are putting so many things out there that it's like, Wow, I didn't know that. ⁓ I didn't think that. So we have to stop. And and how can we help each other?
speaker-0: Okay, well a man is listening and he knows he's been angry in a way that's not quite feel like anger. What would you want him to hear from you directly?
speaker-1: I want you to hear that you are not alone. There are so many other men that are going through the same thing. if you don't tell someone, you're not gonna know how to get over it.
speaker-0: mental health system is largely built around self reporting. Yeah. A man who does not recognize his own depression is not going to walk into a therapist office and say the right words. Okay. So what actually works as an entry point for men who would never call it what it is?
speaker-1: think that you know it you're why like you I I think the important question is asking yourself why like why am I angry? Why am I upset?
speaker-0: What if they don't recognize that they're angry? Like I know that in a a person that w I'm I'm aware of, you can tell them that you're like always angry and cranky all the time. And they're like, No, not in an angry way. don't they don't recognize that they're actually even angry. Right. So how
speaker-1: Okay. But you but there's no way that you can get help if you don't think you need help. So is really to someone sees it in someone else. You're gonna have to have the hard conversation with that person. Because what are you doing when you this person that you're saying you're just like
speaker-0: Get that person some space. Yeah, I'm just gonna walk
speaker-1: Right, but you but you're gonna have to if you care about the person, you're gonna have to find a way to approach them. I know I keep trying to tell you that you're upset, you're snapping, and you don't think you are. No. You are. Like why are you acting like that? And it depends on the person because If you know, I think in in the people that I know, when I finally have said it to to someone, I'm just like, Look, it's either you're gonna do something about it or we're like our relationship is done because I can't keep going through this. And I mean any type of relationship, a friendship, whatever it is, a family ship, I can't. It it's too much. And if you ⁓ we're trying to tell you something, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. Well to put a clinical lens on it, have my notes. So what you just described about entry points connects to d connects directly to one of most evidence supported interventions for depression in men specifically, which is called behavioral activation, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Traditional talk therapy asks people to process their feelings first and change the behavior second. Okay. Behavioral activation reverses that sequence entirely. It starts with action, walk, a shared meal, a task done side by side. And allows for emotional processing to follow naturally from the changed behavior. Yes. That works for men because the feel because the feelings find their way through the doing, not before it. Right. And from a nutritional standpoint, that action also needs fuel. So a brain running on processed food sustained cortisol that's elevated most likely does not have the raw materials to mood. So zinc, magnesium, omega-3 fatty acids, and B vitamins are the foundational nutrients that are needed. For neurotransmitter synthesis, right? That's the first thing that's always gonna be depleted. So you cannot think or feel your weight out of a nutritional ⁓ deficiency. The body has to be resourced first. So that's why it's always all the things. You can't start doing all these things right and still eat crap and drink and all the things because you're still you're just depleting your body. And those are the the minerals or the nutrients that go away first as you have chronic stress and chronic depression and all those things. They're rapidly being depleted. Right. So you have to consciously replenish and restore. Right. Yeah. Okay. Chose the name Angel of Mercy, White Scrubs, and calling a calling that you carry other people's pain professionally. Who was carrying yours?
speaker-1: Who carrying my pain? You know, I think that my husband carries a lot of my pain or carried a lot of my pain, which he is just one strong, awesome dude. You met him. I ⁓ so think he carried a lot of that. And I that my friends, like even though I was the strong one. I think that I was able to still lean on my Dazlin Diva friends back in New York a lot. So, but definitely my husband first ⁓ and then my friends. And I think more so lately, if I did have any pain, then I lean ⁓ on lot of my networking community. There are some that are it's just so close to me that I can lean on them and definitely my daughter, Shay, because she's getting older now, so now I can lean on her and be like, hey, and my niece. ⁓ who moved to Texas, I can lean on her. So and then I have another Dejeune, so I can lean on her. So I I think like now I have a lot. Yes, I have a lot of support to lean on, which is good. I like I'm like, thank God. But also I think that it takes like I said before, it takes courage to lean on s other people and not feel yeah and not and not feel like I'm gonna be judged by
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Definitely don't want to throw it back in my face. Yeah. Right.
speaker-0: Me use scratch for life. Scratch for life. Okay. What did nine years of watching people approach the end of their lives teach you about how to live yours?
speaker-1: ⁓ my goodness. That taught me, like I said, that that just changed my life for the better, being a hospice nurse. It just taught me to try to live a life of joy. Try to be kind as much as possible. Cause we I I think that we all have a little mean girl in a in in us a little bit, but it just taught me to be kind as much as possible. just try not to Thank you. Just trying not to live a life of regret. Like just try going out doing things. That fun. Last night I went to see Matt Rife, which it was one of yes. never knew.
speaker-0: What was it here? Hey Matt.
speaker-1: man, he was in Charlotte at the Spectrum Center and I kept telling my husband. Yes, I kept telling my husband, I was like, I want to see my wife so bad every time he he he came here more than once, every time he comes, the dates didn't line up, and my husband surprised me with tickets at the Spectrum Center. it was amazing hilarious. I love Let me tell you something. That man is ⁓ a genius. ⁓ he is so cute. ⁓
speaker-0: Is he was still funny in person and stuff too? I love him and he's adorable. He is.
speaker-1: So t just taking time out to do different things and I mean
speaker-0: I'm about to tag you on this foot, Mike. Right.
speaker-1: Even just being here, it's like taking time just to be like, you know what? Putting take like set time aside just to do fun girl stuff. Because this, even though we're doing this podcast, this is still like a fun girl thing to do. so yeah, just just enjoying life because if you continue to make your life be built around only work. Only stressful things. You're just gonna remain angry.
speaker-0: Life will totally pass you by. And then you'll look up one day towards the end, like, what did I do? What what happened? What went so fast? I learned recently to do so because I've always been so extremely focused on getting to the next goal or accomplishment. I never, ⁓ they say, enjoyed the journey. and then another part of culture. ⁓
speaker-1: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Do you enjoy your life? Just about to say I was like that's definitely a cultural thing.
speaker-0: The culture is like, okay, to it, right? So I and I certainly wasn't raised with celebrate the small moments and all that. And it still feels very unnatural for me. So like the first I took to and this is recent for me, very recent. I've I'm a published author, as you all know, nurse by Nyda Nigel. I actually threw a book release party. I would have never done that. Okay. I was just like, Okay, it's out there, you know, next thing, you know. Yeah. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna Do that. Yeah. And and so like I'm making a conscious effort as long as it becomes is I'm aware of it. Cause sometimes I'm not even aware. But when I'm aware of it, like, okay, I'm going to say, acknowledge that this has happened. Yes. And I'm going to purposefully take the time to say, Any good job. You did you did well. But it's it's a new habit. I'm I'm like, what's this Jul monthly July? Like I'm six months in.
speaker-1: Okay. Yeah. Good, good, good. I was definitely thinking I know what the culture is just like yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. But it's good because it's it's habits that you do also want to change in your own children, right? You don't want them to think, Okay, hey
speaker-0: You know the cult, it does not yeah. Well my sister with her two kids, my nephew and my niece, she has definitely changed it. We celebrate all the things. little micro steps. We celebrate things. And I'm happy to be there as their auntie and support them through all that. Yeah. Yeah. So she's already made that change. Okay. All right. That's fantastic. There's a growing conversation about whether current mental health framework is built around the feminine model of processing that asking men to talk about their feelings in a way therapy is currently designed may not be the right fit.
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: For how many men are actually wired, which is why probably a lot of men don't ever want to go to therapy. Yeah. What is your honest take on that?
speaker-1: I think that I I encourage it. Like I feel like we have to sure the men are okay. And I think that I want to encourage you to be open. Right? Because If you're if you're more open, you give someone else permission to be more open. And then that person gives someone else the permission to be more open.
speaker-0: So the woman should be a soft and safe place for the man despite his behavior. Which is very do especially in today's culture, I think that's extremely difficult for women to do. 'Cause like you've been not so nice, yeah, a hole. Right. And I'm still supposed to be soft and accommodating and let you have that place to land. So how do you help that woman with that?
speaker-1: Right. Well. Because if you're gonna stay in your relationship and you're gonna stay in your marriage, what are you gonna do? Like you you know, I I my husband hated when I say this, but I always said that if I left my relationship, know I've done everything I could. Right? So if wanna If you walk away from your relationship, I think that you should walk away with fulfillment to feel like, you know what, I've done everything I could. I've I've been this support. I've been open. I've done everything. And you can walk away with no regrets. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that's a yeah, that's great. All right, so you are a woman working specifically with men and their partners. Have you encountered resistance to that? if so, have you navigated?
speaker-1: have not because I think that I think that social media helps I feel that more people are open to a lot more things because the conversations there's so many conversations around depression there are so many conversations around
speaker-0: I keep hearing about narcissists all the time now. And there's I'm like, everything is narcissist and manosphere and red pill blue. I'm like, what is all going?
speaker-1: Yeah, I well the the the ones that we've encountered are just more I I think that it's just more people are more open and and people are sharing different things people are telling other people. So if you and I talked about it, it'd be like when I go home, my husband would be like, Well, what happened? And he's interested in knowing what happened and what did you think? And then he'll tell to his friends, ⁓ guess what? She was here. And so I think that that has been happening more so, which helps. Which helps. Yeah. Well
speaker-0: Yeah, okay. My last clinical hat. ⁓ there's a term in the research worth naming here, and that's Alexithemia, which I'm sure sh she knows all this. it is the clinical term for ⁓ for difficulty identifying and describing one's own emotional states. It is not a character flaw, it is not stubbornness, it is a learned neurological pattern, and it's significantly more prevalent in men because the emotional vocabulary and processing skills that help people identify.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Internal states are socialized out of boys from a very young age, as you spoke on earlier. The brain structures involved in emotional processing are fully intact in these men. The pathway between feeling something and being able to name it is simply never it's never been reinforced because of our social conditioning. This is why asking a man to articulate when he feels often like like how he feels often produces silence or deflection or anger. Right. ⁓ it's not resistance. The pathway was never built. And that's exactly why the work that Angel is describing is so necessary. So you can't ask someone to use a road that doesn't exist yet. So you have to help build it. And so what you've said is the woman helps build that road. So if the pathways, if the if the if this everything's intact, but the connection between those things and a brain haven't been established because it was never reinforced from childhood onward, right? Help them build it. Yes. So he's not trying to be, like I said, stubborn or irritable or deflect. He literally doesn't have the it hasn't been reinforced possibly in his brain for it to be something he can actually do comfortably. What are your thoughts on that? No
speaker-1: Agree. but you know, I think one thing that I want women to get is that we're talking about light, light stuff, right? Like we're not talking about like a real clinical, clinical problem that we're asking you to solve. Because if there is a real clinical problem, you're not gonna be able to help. So we're just talking about the light stuff that This person is angry, they're depressed, they're stressed at work, they hate their job, you know, they can't meet demands of whatever. So how can you help with that? Yeah.
speaker-0: And so if is something that's more intense, seek that professional help quicker than than letting it fester and get worse. That makes sense. Doctor Angel, I always ask every last guest the same question. If you tell the listeners to make one more informed choice this week, what would it be?
speaker-1: Definitely. Exactly. take time out for yourself. one of the things that I'm coined as is the balance builder. ⁓ So balance, I would say taking time out for yourself. B stands for breathing. A stands for acknowledging what is happening, right? ⁓ L for letting go. The ⁓ the the next A stands for aligning with what is happening, right? N stands nurture, nurturing yourself. The C stands for, let me look at my notes. C stands for, so the C stands for connecting. So you want to connect with others. And then E stands for empowering. So you want to empower yourself. So with that, just making sure you take time out for yourself. So you can get your own balance.
speaker-0: I love the acronym. Thanks. Okay, I'm gonna put that on screen. Okay. That is super awesome. But but before we move on to our herbal spotlight and our cooking segment, tell the people where they can find you and how they can work with.
speaker-1: Right. You can find me on LinkedIn under Dr. Angel Taylor. You can find me Instagram at NTF Collective Org. You can find me on Facebook at Dr. Angel Taylor or NTF Collective dot org. and my website. Yes. ⁓
speaker-0: will be below in the show notes. Well that's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom. I think this was a very powerful conversation. We'll have to have you back for sure. Thank you. Thanks so much. We'll be right back at our herbal spotlight. Nailed it. Okay, well welcome to our herbal spotlight and everything that you've heard Dr. Angela explain in our interview segment. We talked about how anger is really pain, that the nervous system get is never able to really stand down and just calm down and relax. So a person who can't sleep, who can't let things go
speaker-1: Hey, thank you. Thank you.
speaker-0: That's what's happening. So there are herbs. There's so much plant medicine that can really help with that. one that people might be a little not as familiar with, do you know what this is?
speaker-1: like it looks like time
speaker-0: Just kinda have a time look to it. But it's not time. It's an herb called Passion Flower. Passion Flower is actually very prevalent in in the southeastern United States. It's a very pretty flower. It's like has purple petals and stuff. But most of the ⁓ the plant is medicinal. and is really known, it's just as comparable to some antidepressant medications, one for one without the adverse side effects. It's passion flower. So ⁓ passion flower, some people think of it as like a sleeping herb. It does help you calm down enough and then you'll get a like a good restful sleep. But its primary action is on the GABA system, which is the Neurotransmitter pathway that regulates anxiety, agitation, and emotional activity. So when someone's depressed is showing up as irritability and anger, the nervous system is dysregulated, as you know. So passion flower specifically addresses that. And so the way that most people actually consume passion flour is in a tea or in a tincture. So for Dr. Angela today, I've already done a cold infusion for her. And so she'll get to try it. So I have some d I just took this with a cold infusion and I added some stevia leaves to it just to sweeten it up a so it wouldn't be too raw. And then we're gonna get her on air opinion while I'll read some more of the science of it. yeah. You should have a nice no matter how the traffic is going back, it should be nice and calm. Here you go.
speaker-1: smell it. ⁓ that smells good.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's it's very nice.
speaker-1: Mm. That's good. It tastes like something familiar. And I can't think of what that is, but it tastes familiar. Hmm. It almost tastes almost like a cross between peppermint. Yeah.
speaker-0: I can see that. Yeah, I can see that. Well, there's a randomized controlled trial in psychotherapy research found that passion flower extract has been as effective as as accepam, which is a prescription for anti-anxiety medication for general anxiety disorder with fewer side effects ⁓ and no impairment on your job performance. Also, there's a 2017 study in a neuropsychopharmacology journal confirmed that passion flower's GABA modulating activity. supports traditional use for anxiety, agitation, and sleep disruption. So if you're a person that's struggling with any of these things, passion flour is something that's very gentle, something you can really, really use to benefit. If you want to do like the cold infusion, you just need like two tablespoons, I mean two teaspoons steeped in about a a cup and a half, two cups of water. You can do it as quick as 10 minutes, or you can do an overnight ⁓ like I did for Dr. Angela and for Dr. Angel. Or you can do a tincture one to two times a day or you can do it acutely like when you feel the stress coming on, when you feel that anxiety start to to take on, you can actually take it like right then to help regulate you and bring it back down. There's not a lot of contraindications with this particular herb. Okay. ⁓ it is recommended not to use during pregnancy because it could stimulate uterine activity. it's not to be mixed with other like ⁓ psychoactive drugs or any like benzodiazepines or anything like that. You want to kind of keep those separate or work with your healthcare professional who has knowledge of herbs. to see if it's coun contraindicated for you, but it's pretty regarded as safe. So had you heard of ⁓ Passion Flour before?
speaker-1: Have not and where can we get
speaker-0: Yes, well I'll have links below from our dispensary you can get from there. But you want to buy herbs from a reputable seller. You want to make sure that they're organic, super You want to make sure there's they've been third party tested, so there's no like heavy metals or things like that. But you can also go to most of your health food stores. If you're in a like Charlotte, like a Berry Brook or an organic marketplace here, they carry the herbs and you can buy them there. and then there the some the reputable ones like Mountain Rose herbs or ⁓ Star Star West, like they're on Amazon as well. So they're very accessible nowadays within the United States specifically where you can have access and and do this because it's something like you really, really feel the difference. And tea should be a part of people's ritual because it's really medicine. And people think it was just a tea, but yeah, it's really medicine. It's really medicine. So I'm glad. I'm glad you had a semi-new experience. Yeah. Doesn't taste too bad, you know. ⁓ this was good. Okay, awesome. Well, we're going to transition to our be wealthy Nigetarian kitchen segment. Yes. So we always like to pull in a dish and relate it to ⁓ what's happening. Okay. So today we're making that connection direct from everything we've been talking about with the nervous system. so that's what this dish really is. So this is our coconut lemongrass wild rice bowl with seasoned mushrooms and ⁓ garlic sauteed vegetables. That's lot right so just talk through the ingredients, wild rice is not actual rice. It's my favorite rice to use. Okay. It's actually an aquatic grass seed that's native to North America and because it's a seed it's very high in protein It's low in starch, so it's very low in the glycemic index. So oppose that to white rice, which you know spikes you really high. Yeah. It has no really no nutritional value, right? So that's what makes that part really, really good. And it has a nice chew that holds up ⁓ beautifully in a bowl. It holds up well in the refrigerator. it it can it freezes really well. it has far more antioxidants than your traditional white or brown rice, especially with the black color, it's always gonna be higher in antioxidants. And it's a one of the top grain sources of zinc. Which is a critical for mood regulation. You need it for mood regulation and for proper immune function. So this is one of the top ⁓ sources in the grains for zinc. Now the mushrooms are like the star of the dish. we're gonna sear them in a pan, ⁓ that meaty texture, right? ⁓ but they're also rich in a potent antioxidant ⁓ that have neuroprotective properties. A lot of the mushrooms do, and it's also rich in beta glucans, which help with more immune resiliency, which is helping you under stress. Right, so we're replenishing the things that are depleted when you have stress. And then the coconut lemongrass base. So I use I cook the white rice in coconut milk. So that's our fat source of the dish, so we can absorb all of our fat-soluble nutrients. And I added in some cut-up lemongrass, which we'll take out at the very end for a depth of flavor because it adds some warmth and some depth to it, a little bit of natural sweetness. and that all that works together really well. And so why the dish for this episode? So chronic emotion ⁓ suppression. And nervous system dysregulation completely depletes all the nutrients. I spoke on this earlier, specifically our magnesium, our zinc, our B vitamins, our antioxidants. So when you're stressed, your cortisol through the roof, those four for sure, are wiped out, right? Doesn't matter how healthy you're eating, you have to increase it more because of what your body's having to consume because of the stress that you're taking on. So in this bowl replenishes all of those. We're replenishing the magnesium, the zinc, the B vitamins, the antioxidants. So we have the wild rice for the zinc and the B vitamins, we have the mushrooms. For the ergothionine and the immune support. We have a coconut for the medium chain fatty acids, right? And that crosses the blood brain barrier and helps support cognitive function. And then the vegetables for folate and vitamin C, both rapidly depleted when you're under sustained stress. So this one dish pulls in everything we talked about, hopefully in a tasty way, and you'll let us know. Yeah. Now, off camera, just ⁓ sake of time, I went ahead and cooked the wild rice because wild rice takes a little minute, right? It's because of the seed, you actually can eat it raw. It can actually just sit on the counter like in a brine. And after for me, two days, it's ready to go. Okay. ⁓ or you can cook it in like a pressure cooker, or you can cook it in the on the stovetop. So it takes about if you want it to be not super al dente, it takes about 50 minutes to an hour. Right. So we didn't have time to just cook that on air. So I went ahead and prepared that. So again, I cooked it in ⁓ the the the link will be down below, but cooked it in the coconut milk, added in some garlic for background flavor, add in some lemongrass, and ⁓ vegetable broth and some ginger, a little bit of turmeric and a pinch of you know. A chef's pinch of salt. Okay. Okay. And I just let that boil for about an hour, and that's what that is. So the first thing we're gonna do here, we're gonna go ahead and season up our mushrooms. So mushrooms are filled with water. And so since I'm not blooming any spices, we're not gonna use any oil. A lot of people start off by just loading the pan with oil, right? Now you're adding three, four, five, seven hundred calories because one little tablespoon is 120 calories. We don't need to do that. So most of our vegetables are filled with water, it's already good to go. So I have a cast iron pan here. that we're going to start off and put our mushrooms in. And see so much water come out of them. Now I've marinated the mushrooms with just a little bit of coconut aminos, smoke, and smoked paprika. And you'll see a lot of mush a lot of water come out of this. So I'm now gonna turn up the heat and I'm gonna let those sit for a second. And while that is waiting, we're gonna do a rapid fire. So people can get to know you while we're letting this cook. So we're not just watching water boil as they say All All right, so Dr. Angel, morning person or night owl?
speaker-1: Night owl, do like mornings at all. Everyone knows that about me.
speaker-0: The mill that always makes you feel like yourself again.
speaker-1: tails are Jamaica curry goat.
speaker-0: Here we go. I'm assuming not the vegan ones. No.
speaker-1: Not the vegan oxtail, not the vegan curvy colour.
speaker-0: One thing people always get wrong when they ⁓ first meet you.
speaker-1: thing people always get wrong when they first meet me. Well, I think that they get my age wrong. I can see that. Yeah. People always think that I'm younger than I am. Yeah. Yeah. Right, exactly. So they definitely always think that and it and it's so funny because a lot of people that are younger than me usually say, by the time you get to my age, you Yeah. I'm okay. ⁓
speaker-0: You know black don't crack it. Be like, all right, well we'll roll with that. What does a good day feel like in your body?
speaker-1: Waking up late, which late to me is probably around eleven AM. That will be the perfect day to wake up around eleven AM. Go downstairs outside and sit outside a nice cool breezy seventy degree day. Wow. Yes. Okay.
speaker-0: ⁓ my Yeah, I'm definitely a morning person. That is like eleven. I've done half my day by then.
speaker-1: Eleven o'clock, I'm just like getting ready so even though I got here at eleven thirty, super early.
speaker-0: I bring you Thank you. Yes. That was a sacrifice.
speaker-1: No list I'm in Gastonia, you guys know trial traffic is. Yes. So it wasn't terrible today, but yeah.
speaker-0: Eighty five is a disaster. Yeah. Okay, I totally get you on that. Okay, the last thing that genuinely made you laugh out loud. Ooh, last night. Last night.
speaker-1: The last thing. Matt Ross Listen, I laugh so hard. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's fantastic. I'm s I'm I did not know. I was not in the loop on that. Okay. Absolutely. I really like him.
speaker-1: You would have went to the show. My goodness. I I don't know what we're gonna do to get any more on social media or more in the note.
speaker-0: She has to keep me plugged in like a rabbit. Okay. thing that you do every single day that has nothing to do with work. First thing that comes to your mind.
speaker-1: I guess drink coffee. Yes.
speaker-0: Every day. Okay. a book, film or conversation that changed how you see people.
speaker-1: Film, possibly. Well, you know what? I guess conversation would be my answer. A conversation that changed how I see people. I I think that I can't think of one specific conversation, but just conversations in general, especially in networking. Yeah. has has made me feel different about people overall. Yeah.
speaker-0: I can see that. I get that. If you were not in healthcare and helping people with their mental health in particular, what would you be doing? Well
speaker-1: Well also you know I'm co owner of Silver Sounds which have
speaker-0: Let the people know. Let the people know. on ones and twos, baby
speaker-1: Right. So I mean I will be doing that which i which I am doing. I think just in both of things that I'm doing, it's so important to enjoy what you do. Which ⁓
speaker-0: So you're saying no matter what you'll be doing, you will be enjoying it.
speaker-1: You need yes, I definitely would be enjoying, but it's important for people to enjoy what you do anyway. Cause that changes things. Yeah.
speaker-0: It changes everything. Yeah. 'Cause if you knew my background and now that I'm doing something I actually love, it's so away from what I was doing. I wish but what are you smelling? This aroma. ⁓
speaker-1: you guys to smell this this smells so good aroma ⁓ my goodness it smells so good and you know ⁓ I love this part of the of whole thing because it gives a chance to for people to see how easy it is to prepare meals yeah yes and you don't have to be a chef
speaker-0: No oil. Yes. So you do not have to be a shelf. Everyone thinks, well, you a kid's yours? No. I was four hundred pounds. And you can still eat food that's delicious and good for you. You just have to know a little couple of little things.
speaker-1: So why did you get to four hundred pounds? I mean you can
speaker-0: ⁓ no, it's fine. Yeah, that's part of my story. So I was pretty much always fat. Okay. I had everything, so ⁓ my system was mess. just really like now it's called polymetabolic ovarian ⁓ syndrome, formerly known as PCOS, diabetes, high cholesterol, a huge gorder, hypothyroidism. all the things on and on and on. So I just literally had no energy. And so a lot of people assume when you're morbidly obese that you're just sitting around eating all day long. When it's quite the opposite, you don't even eat that much because you sleep half the time or so tired. But when you do eat, it's not the things that are best for your body. And when your body is chronically in a I'm gonna store everything okay. I don't feel safe for various reasons. You just pack it on. And because there's some people that when they're stressed, they naturally lose everything, get super skinny. Yeah. which is just as unhealthy as people who pack it on right ⁓ when they're super stressed and I was the type that will just pack it on. And so and culturally and you might I don't know if this is so much in Jamaica but definitely in Nigeria, like you being fat and someone saying you're fat is not done as a hatred thing. It's just a fact. It's like I'm clearly not skinny. Yeah. Right. it's not like you're fat and shaming you. It's like you're fat. Like yeah. They care about your accomplishments. What are you doing? What have you done? Right? That's how you can get shamed in in my culture. So it was like I know I'm fat, but I can't even I don't even have the energy to care about that because I have so much stuff I have to accomplish. Okay. And I just need energy to get something done. and so once I I watched a documentary that changed my life and I realized, well, I'm just gonna try this, you know, clean way of eating and see what happens because if it gives me energy, I thought all the diseases and stuff I had were for life. Okay. Based on what my ⁓ medical team at that time was telling me, like, Well, yeah, so take this pill, do this, do that, and then at thirty five I'll give you hysterectomy and that's it. I'm like, well, I'm twenty two. Now, so what am I gonna do until I'm 35? Yes. Continue to suffer like this. So yeah, all the needless suffering that happens. Wow. So it changed my whole life. And so once I saw how powerful food is and how it's actually medicine, the first medicine that should happen, I've devoted my life to spreading this message to people that you do not have to suffer at all. You really don't. So here we have our veggies ⁓ again, because with water, we have some bok choy, the stem part, and we have some red bell pepper. I'm gonna put it in this hot pan. Again, it does not need any oil, there's plenty of liquid within it. It will not burn. I'm gonna go ahead and add in some garlic as our f flavor enhancer. Let those have become friends in there. All right. And we still want the vegetables to have texture. They should not be mush. Okay. We're gonna add in the bok choy leaves at the end so that they still are vibrant green. A lot of people put in greens and by the end they're basically brown. the nutrients are in the liquid, you know. So you wanna make sure that your vegetables are still alive. You just wanna see the color, how you know that is that the color just get a little bit brighter. Even with the red bell pepper, you'll see it kind of change and get a little brighter. The little greens here on the bok choy. You'll see that get a little bit brighter. Once I see that get a little bit brighter, we'll add in our tops. And then we'll adjust for seasoning. I'll put a little bit of seasoning on it. You can use just salt and pepper, or you can use whatever seasoning you like. I have like a mix of like a salt, pepper, garlic blend. It was our house seasoning at my last restaurant. It was our house seasoning blend. Salt, pepper, and garlic powder mixed together. And we're not necessarily seeking color, maybe just a little bit of light browning, that way we know. Everything's been kissed by the cast iron pan. And if you're a person that has low iron, cooking in cast iron actually helps you absorb more iron, especially because you're pairing it with vitamin C. Vitamin C pairing with iron-rich foods helps absorb far more of the iron. So, especially for our women who might be on the anemic side, make sure you're always consuming vitamin C rich foods with whatever iron source you're consuming. What are your thoughts on this? Do you bok choy and ⁓
speaker-1: Voktory love, yeah, and it's like again. I wish you guys could smell this, it smells so good.
speaker-0: Yeah. Who's gonna visit smell a vision people? Okay. Gee, right. It needs to be on the horizon.
speaker-1: smells so
speaker-0: It's starting to look good. I'm seeing some browning, slight browning happening on the bok choice stems. Yes? Yes. Okay. You still like crunching your vegetables?
speaker-1: fine with crunch. Yeah, I don't like soggy vegetables. ⁓ don't like it soggy.
speaker-0: ⁓ okay, that's you were saying like Okay, perfect. So I'm going to toss in our greens at this point.
speaker-1: Especially for Vok Choi. It's so good.
speaker-0: So good crunchy. ⁓ gosh. And we're just looking for the greens to get bright. Once the greens kind of wake up, we'll add back in our mushrooms. huh. And then we'll throw a little seasoning on there and then we will assemble the dish and Doctor Angel will let us know her thoughts.
speaker-1: know why did you take this out and why did you cook it first?
speaker-0: I cooked it first because if I crowded the pan, those would just steam. would change the texture. And because they're filled with so much water, ⁓ I didn't want that. I wanted the texture to still have like a meaty chew to it. Yep. So this whole dish has about twenty five grams of protein. it stores very well for a meal prep. ⁓ it's filled with fiber. I think it's 14 grams of fiber in the dish, which is super important because most Americans do not get enough fiber.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Right, most people talking about where's your protein? Like, where is your fiber? Okay, where's your fiber, people? Right. And if you're eating a plate of beige food, the brown food, it is not healthy. All right, follow the nourish by nitrogen method, the PF3 framework. So you have protein, fiber, fat, and flavor. Okay. You follow that framework. If you're missing one of those components, you do not have a complete meal. All right. You need all those components to be able to absorb all of your nutrients, be it water soluble and fat-soluble. You need the fiber to have proper immune health and digestive health and regular yeah, so you can eliminate properly and regularly. You have to have all these things. You need color on your plate because you need all the antioxids. They all give you something different with the different colors, right? So everything is fried, deep fried and brown on your plate. So you've got fried chicken and mackerel. When everything's brown, you know, it's working. Not the fried chicken.
speaker-1: Chicken, we love that.
speaker-0: I see that we're green here. We're bright green. So I'm gonna toss this back in so it doesn't get cold. And we're gonna turn off our eye.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Turn it off. And then we're gonna sprinkle in some freshness. We have some fresh cilantro. Always add something fresh. I shouldn't have put this at the bottom, but at the bottom I've got some fresh green onion. Okay. And we got a little bit of seasoning. need much. That might have been not even quite half a teaspoon. You can smell that, right? Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: All right. And what did that take? Like fifteen minutes probably?
speaker-0: Not even that. Not even that. All right. So we're gonna get your on air taste test going. So what you see on top is a lemongrass that's on top. And again, this is cooked in the coconut milk. So our fat source is here and most of our a lot of our protein is here as well. Nice foundation.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. ⁓
speaker-0: She loves veggies, y'all. She loves veggies, so wanted to do a veggie for dish for her that's different. Pardon Four percent. All right. Angel. All right.
speaker-1: Bless the hands that prepare this meal. Hello.
speaker-0: Thank you. it. Tell people what you what you think.
speaker-1: Mmm. Right, good. I can I can taste the salt. Mmm, I can tell you coconut milk with. We could put a lot of coconut milk in the makeup. You guys is the right amount ⁓ the bottle. It's not overcooked, not undercooked. I don't even know if that was fifteen minutes.
speaker-0: French. No, it's not. Not even close.
speaker-1: Simple, look at that. sleep. I wake up at eleven o'clock tomorrow. I gotta check my calendar. That would be so amazing I don't have to wake up early tomorrow. This good for you. And thing about I'm very I'm a very picky eater. Yeah. I don't like a lot of things. Yeah, thank you. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. Okay, it's all working. Thank you. Thank you for your openness and willingness to do this. You doing this matters more than you know. You've really helped a lot of people who are watching and listening. And thank for doing Form Choice with a Niger Goddess. And until time, people, heal naturally, live vibrantly. ⁓
speaker-1: Yay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
