009. Everything You Need to Know About the Next Generation ft. Kara Powell

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And so I pulled my little black Toyota into a parking spot, and I was like, God, what are you doing?
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And I felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, I've never heard God speak audibly, but I felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, I'm breaking your heart for the needs of young people.
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Kara Powell is a researcher, an author, an academic leader.
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We are just now doing a new research project on Gen Alpha.
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We've surveyed about 3,000 of them, and we've asked them, what do you most want in an adult you trust?
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And what do you most want in the faith community?
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And at the top of the list is we want.
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I don't even know that I would have articulated this, but a part of what I'm feeling is I'm not cool.
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For young people, warm is the new cool.
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Where does that come from?
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Overall, if you look at the data at trust, we are a country that is not trusting others.
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That's true across generations.
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Trusting institutions and religious institutions.
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Sadly, we've earned that lack of trust.
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But what if they're doing something wrong?
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I do that.
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Really, what's behind judging wherever it comes from is a sense of superiority and a lack of humility.
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We did a survey of 600 senior pastors.
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Some of the most depressing research that we've done.
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Unfortunately, a lot of folks don't talk much about parenthood as a spiritual discipline.
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Yeah.
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I told my girls a week ago what I would most redo as a parent is I.
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Anybody who's watching us right now, if we do a good job in this conversation, what will they carry away?
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Yeah.
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You know, your intro was very kind, but I think what I really love to say about myself is I love young people and I'm passionate about young people.
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So what I would want folks to take away from this is to know how to listen without judgment to the young people they care about most.
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That's it.
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Say that one more time.
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How to listen without judgment to the young people they care about most.
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So I I think in our conversation, Kara, uh, we will circle around that and unpack what does that look like?
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How do we do that?
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How do we know if we're doing it?
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Why does it matter so much in this moment?
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I actually want to start with I was thinking about this, um, your call.
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Yeah.
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Uh we work in kind of adjacent fields, and as a pastor, there's this thing called a call.
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Yeah.
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It plays out real differently with different people.
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I grew up in Baptist circles where I was supposed to have one experience I did not.
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Yeah.
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And uh, but I thought I I'd love to hear because you occupy such a unique and interesting role.
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Yeah.
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What was it in your journey?
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Yeah.
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Did you wake up one morning knowing this is what I want to do?
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How how did that journey happen for you?
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Well, definitely not waking up one morning and knowing what God was calling me to.
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It was a process.
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So in 11th grade, I ran for student body president and lost.
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And you're laughing, but it was traumatic for me.
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I ran for student body president and lost also.
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I lost even earlier than we're part of the club of people who have run for public office and then lost.
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And that's just, you know, publicly embarrassing.
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Yeah.
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But my youth pastor and his wife, I was very close to them.
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And my youth pastor said at that point, I think God's calling you to youth ministry.
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And my parents are both attorneys, and I had seen the good.
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Yeah, they met at law school.
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Wow.
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And I had seen the good that they had done as attorneys.
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So I thought, no, I'm going to go be an attorney and change the world that way.
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Yes.
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But through a weird fluke in 12th grade, I ended up volunteering at our church to get credit from school.
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And, you know, the very first job I did.
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Volunteered at church to get credit from academic credit.
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Yes, I got I needed to pick up an elective and I was able to work this.
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So the first thing I did was clean the youth kitchen.
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Uh that was, I still remember those smells from the youth kitchen.
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And then I worked on uh the weekly bulletin, which we used to use copy machines and remember clip art books and white out and tape.
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For people who don't know, bulletin was this like printed out thing at church that you would learn everything on.
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For some reason, churches call them a bulletin.
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I don't know what.
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Yes, yes.
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And a copy machine is something that makes copies.
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We don't even use that all that much anymore.
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Um but uh and and I and in the process of spending more time at church, I did feel like, well, maybe God is calling me to youth ministry.
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A couple obstacles though.
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Number one, I had never seen a woman doing full-time youth ministry.
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I was in a denomination that was egalitarian, very pro-women, but I just never seen a woman doing it full-time.
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Well, God solved that problem because while at a youth ministry event, I met a youth pastor who, as I was washing my hands in the bathroom, said, Do you think God's calling you to youth ministry?
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This stranger says, Do you think God's calling you to youth ministry?
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In the bathroom.
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In the bathroom.
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Yes.
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At Solana Beach Presbyterian Church in San Diego.
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Wow.
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Uh, because I grew up in San Diego.
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Okay.
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So all of a sudden, here's where where a woman named Roberta Heston is was the lead pastor.
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Exactly, exactly.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So all of a sudden, God provided this woman, this full-time woman who I met with multiple times over the years.
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But then the last thing that was missing is I really wanted a sense that God was calling me to youth ministry.
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It wasn't just what I liked, it wasn't just what other people saw in me.
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Um, so I I I went to Stanford undergrad, and just last week, I was, because I was in the Bay Area, I was driving on El Camino Real, you know it, I do, uh, by the Stanford Shopping Center.
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And what happened on October 11th, 1988, when I was a sophomore in college, is I was driving into the Stanford shopping mall to get a birthday gift for my mom, and all of a sudden I started crying.
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And I'm not someone who just bursts into tears for no reason, uh, especially not then, still not now.
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And so I pulled my little black Toyota into a parking spot and I was like, God, what are you doing?
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And I felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, I've never heard God speak audibly, but I felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, I'm breaking your heart for the needs of young people.
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Not just I'm calling you to, I'm not sure.
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No, I'm breaking your heart for the needs of young people.
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So I went up into the foothills and prayed for a couple more hours.
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And that night I went out to frozen yogurt with some friends from college and said, I think God called me to youth ministry.
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Wow.
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So my journey was really a process of youth pastor and his wife investing in me, meeting a woman, doing it, which was really key.
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And then finally, this you know, supernatural Holy Spirit moment.
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So yeah, I love telling that story, John.
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So thank you for asking me.
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What's very striking to me as you tell that is that the word that would come is breaking your heart.
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Yeah.
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How did you understand that?
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That doesn't sound like, oh, goody, I get to have my heart broken.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well how how did you how did you interpret that?
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Well, uh, the passage that was really prominent, and as a mission and theology faculty member at Fuller Seminary, I should know the reference, but I'm a little loose here.
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I think it's uh Luke 9, 36, something like that, where Jesus had compassion because he saw the crowd were like sheep without a shepherd.
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Yes.
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And my understanding is that the Greek word there is like so moved, even internally and physically.
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And I was looking at that passage about that time, and that's kind of how it all connected for me.
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That like how I feel about young people, it's visceral.
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And still today, you know, when I drive by a high school, when I drive by a college, I just want to stop and talk to young people.
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So I love young people and I love adults who work with young people, and I love talking about young people.
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So I well, how do we get to do that today?
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So uh to talk with, be with, work with young people is one thing, yeah.
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But then uh part of where that's led for you is to research and to lead research, which is uh a little different thing than hands-on involvement connection.
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You are at the forefront of that as much as anybody that I know.
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How did that happen?
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From I want uh a heart for young people to I want to find out yeah what are the best minds, what is the best data, what is the best research, how did that shift happen?
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Yeah.
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Well, I love education.
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And uh so I got my MDiv and I got my PhD in practical theology and I was teaching full time at Azusek Pacific University in Los Angeles.
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I don't think I knew you taught anything.
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I did, I did.
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That's where I that was my first academic role.
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Yeah.
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And then Fuller was getting ready to start this new research center that was gonna listen to the needs of the church and the world and then do research to respond to those needs and then translate that research into practical resources, which A is basically the practical theology methodology that I'd been studying in my PhD program.
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And B, I thought, oh my gosh, you know, this center is gonna stand with one foot in the life of real life, young people, families, churches, and one foot in the world of world-class research.
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Like that's where I want to stand.
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Yeah.
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So a friend of mine who was a faculty member on at the time said, like, Kara, I think you should apply for this role.
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And that was like 22 years ago.
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Um, so and I I just love the idea of listening to what the church and world need, doing really good research, and then turning that research into a practical tool.
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Wow.
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So wow, perfect fit.
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Yeah, I I yeah, I kind of think so.
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So yeah, thank you.
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I want to come back to your initial statement.
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If there's one thing that you'd want anybody who's listening to you to come away with, yeah, it is that young people want to be listened to, they want to be understood, but without being judged.
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Where does that come from?
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Why is that so important?
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Yeah.
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Well, I think developmentally, you know, this is not the first generation of teenagers and young adults to feel that way, to want to be listened to.
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But I think we as adults, uh, we've been especially critical of young people now and in the recent past.
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You know, there was a lot of criticism about Gen Z, millennials, you know, how lazy entitled they were, etc.
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So I think young people feel like adults and even the church has been finger pointing at them.
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And, you know, they want adults who are not going to judge them but journey with them.
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Yeah.
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And we are just now doing a new research project on Gen Alpha.
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So, you know, after Gen Z comes Gen Alpha, which we're defining as those born 2010 and later.
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So think 16-year-olds and younger.
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And we've surveyed about 3,000 of them and we've asked them what do you most want in an adult you trust?
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And what do you most want in the faith community?
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And at the top of the list is we want adults who will listen without judging.
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We want adults who are a safe place for us.
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So I think young people feel so judged in so many other spheres that they're just hungry for that uh in general.
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And what a great opportunity for the church.
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I mean, we have the chance to, I would say, earn back young people's trust by how we listen to them.
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And uh I'm thinking about that topic of sensitivity to being judged.
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Yeah.
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Um is there something around um being young and generational differences that feeds into that?
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Or is that just a reflection of the fact that as sinful people we are so judgmental and people in power can be most judgmental and people who are young don't have it?
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Uh yes and yes.
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I mean, I I think it's it's everything that you've just said, but I think as the pace of change and cultural change accelerates, yeah, it gets harder for us as adults to keep up with youth culture, which I think makes us even more makes me more prone to be judgmental because I don't understand it.
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It feels even more foreign, even more distant for me.
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Well, and I wonder, even too, because I'm older than you, and part of what I'm aware of, I was talking with our team yesterday about stuff that they're watching, and I'm not watching what they're watching.
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Yeah.
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And so I don't even know that I would have articulated this or at the time, but a part of what I'm feeling is I'm not cool.
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Yeah.
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Oh, yeah.
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And cool is such a thing, and it's kind of like the older you get, the less cool you are.
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Yeah.
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So judging becomes a way to deal with my sense of inadequacy and not being a good idea.
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My insecurity, totally.
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Oh, yeah.
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I mean, my kids are 20, 23, and 25, and they would say, just the way that I say cool reveals that I'm not cool.
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Like, you know, in fact, somewhere they're kind of cringing just because I've now said it here with you.
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So, so yeah, absolutely.
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We cut become aware of our lack of coolness.
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Uh, and I think that can make us more insecure, more prone to withdraw or to judge.
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But, you know, we had a senior pastor tell us during the course of our research with some previous research, that for young people, warm is the new cool.
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Oh, that's beautiful.
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Isn't that good?
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Because temperature-wise, it looks the opposite.
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Exactly.
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And and any of us can be warm.
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You know, for for people who are watching or listening to this who are cool, awesome.
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They can just keep being their cool selves.
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But for the rest of us, we don't have to try to be cool.
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In fact, when we try, young people pick that up.
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What they want is they want us to be real, they want us to be warm, they want us to listen, they want us to care.
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Now, I will say, sometimes young people don't always show that.
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You know, it's not like the nearest young person at our church or our grandchild or our niece-nephew is saying, Oh, please build a relationship with me verbally.
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So sometimes we have to push through what can look like apathy or even caution from young people, but fundamentally, young people they want, they want that warmth.
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I I was listening not too long ago to a talk that Dallas Willard did, and he was talking about the concept of cool.
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Yeah.
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And where does that come from?
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Why is this so central?
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And he actually went back to the fall.
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And that after the fall, one of the consequences was now you will work, you will labor by the sweat of your brow.
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Yeah.
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And so sweat is a symptom of fallenness, inadequacy.
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So we all want to look like no sweat.
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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But I'm cool because sweat is an indication that I'm fallen, I'm inadequate, I'm wrong.
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But actually, that's the truth about me.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Oh, oh, that's really profound, John.
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You know, as we were talking, I was thinking about a dad whose teenage daughter told him, you know, you don't need to come uh to my games anymore.
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She played soccer, you don't need to come to my games anymore.
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I don't want you to come.
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And he listened to her because it seemed like she was pushing away.
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So he didn't come.
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And she admitted to him some years later, you know, I really wish you had showed up.
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Wow.
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I really wish you had come.
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Wow.
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So it, you know, I need to remember that as a parent, you, as a parent, grandparent, it's we are just building relationships with young people in our neighborhood, in our church.
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Again, they're not always going to have the welcome mat out.
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Um, you know, there's a season where as a parent you show up at your kids' school and they give you kind of the head nod.
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You know, you don't even get a hello.
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If you're lucky, you get a head nod.
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Yep.
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Um, yeah, but and that can happen when they're not even our kids, but showing up, being consistent, being uh, you know, kind of a steady force in their life.
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:22.320
No, you know, we have grandkids and we're already experiencing at a certain age when they're little and you come up, it's like, oh my god, you're gonna be the grandest day of my life.
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:22.879
Totally.
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.879
And then at a certain age, and it comes sooner than I would have thought.
00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:27.519
Yeah.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:31.840
If we're alone, there can still be that very warm response.
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:33.759
But if there's other peers around, yeah.
00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:34.960
Right, exactly.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:36.000
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:36.559
Yeah.
00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:43.360
I'm thinking uh about a church that we've been working with uh that we always recommend with listening.
00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:50.480
That's not just true with individual relationships, but churches, you know, as you want to engage teenagers, young adults, have you actually listened to them?
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.960
So there was this church that said, okay, we really want to better engage our teenagers.
00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:59.200
It was a church of about two, three hundred uh near Fuller in Los Angeles.
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:04.880
And so the associate pastor and one of the deacons, they did a couple focus groups with teenagers.
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:05.839
Anybody can do this.
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.920
Any adult listening or watching can do this.
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:09.359
You know, what do you like about our church?
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.400
When do you feel closest to the adults in our church?
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.160
When do you feel like you really belong?
00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:23.200
And what the young people said was we love it when people from our church show up at our events, when they show up at our soccer game, when they show up at our play.
00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:23.599
Wow.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:24.880
Um, that's what we love.
00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:30.400
And so the pastor and the deacon, they came up with something really wild and creative.
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.400
They created a Google Doc.
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:36.000
Wow, new technology, so sophisticated.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:36.880
Yeah, I know.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:38.160
You heard it here first.
00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:50.799
A Google Doc that parents and stepparents and caregivers and kids themselves could enter their events in so that youth ministry volunteers, you know, it's part-time youth pastor, three or four volunteers, could show up at an event.
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:52.319
Well, that went so well.
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:58.960
Adults, these volunteers started showing up that the pastor and the deacon thought, well, why don't we do this church wide?
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:11.680
So every Sunday there's a slide in the announcements that reveals it, you know, that indicates what young people are doing, who's got a game, who's got a play, who's got a Girl Scout event, whatever it might be.
00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:20.240
Now, think about what it means to be a young person in that worship service and you're seeing yourself and your friends and just young people highlighted like that.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:21.839
I mean, what do you feel about?
00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:23.279
Okay, I belong here.
00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:24.480
This is my home.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:34.720
But then also, adults are spontaneously showing up at kids' events and even becoming, you know, when you mentioned Ron Ronnie of it, as you said, talking about being a grandparent.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:35.039
Yep.
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:40.799
Because especially senior adults, there is a special tenderness between senior adults and young people.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:19:01.440
So the pastor who was telling us this story uh about his church, he had he had gone to uh a 16-year-old soccer game, and he's standing on the sidelines talking to her parents, and he looks down the sidelines, and there's an 81-year-old sitting in his lawn chair, just there to cheer her on.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:01.920
Wow.
00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:15.519
Now, you know, I'm not suggesting that's a magic silver bullet for every church, but I love that idea of okay, we listened to young people and we heard what they said, and then we figured out how we could do what they said.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:17.759
And in this case, it was showing up literally.
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.319
As simple as showing up, exactly.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:31.359
And and the senior adults, I mean, they they want more to do, they want opportunities to want and need connection, exactly, uh, although sometimes push it away because it's often more effort.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:31.920
Totally.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:34.880
But then when it's given, it's like, oh yeah, that's what life is about.
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:35.359
Absolutely.
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:36.480
I matter to somebody.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:37.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.200
Hence the popularity of Theo of Golden, if you've read that novel.
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:43.680
Okay, yeah.
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:47.839
I mean, how anybody can make a difference, and especially people who are senior adults.
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:49.519
There's there's some amazing opportunities.
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:50.160
Yeah.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:58.559
Is there a reason why showing up uh to listen without judging is particularly important in this moment?
00:19:58.880 --> 00:19:58.960
Yeah.
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:00.640
Let me unpack that a little bit more.
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:07.119
You were talking about uh research with millennials, uh, Gen Z, Gen Alpha.
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.240
I'll have you say a little bit more about how we carve generations up.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:10.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:12.079
And why does that matter?
00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:13.920
Folks will sometimes lose track of that.
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:14.319
Yeah.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:17.599
But you've been doing research now for a couple of decades.
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:17.839
Yeah.
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.519
And a big question is um, how do things change?
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:22.079
Yeah.
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.960
You know, how do cohorts differ from each other?
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:25.519
Yeah.
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.279
And then uh how how do they remain the same?
00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:30.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.599
And uh so say a word about that.
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:44.319
What the generate how the generations get sliced up, uh, and what shifts and what changes stays the same, and is just showing up, listening without judging for some reason particularly important now.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:45.839
Yeah, yeah, great question.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:49.599
So, you know, generational cohorts, they're a little arbitrary.
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:58.240
You know, but researchers kind of look at trends, and it's not like somebody born December 31st of one year is so different than somebody born January 1st of the next year, et cetera.
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:07.039
But as we've looked at how others are grouping it, we've landed on 2010 as the delineation between Gen Z and Gen Alpha.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.839
Now, let's start with what's different.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.759
Okay, you asked about what's different and what's the same.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:12.720
Okay, here's what's different.
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:18.400
Think about what this cohort of young people, your grandkids, are navigating post-pandemic.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:22.640
So many mental health struggles.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:31.039
You know, we've never had a cohort of young people who has navigated stress and anxiety and depression like this.
00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:37.279
Um, you know, I don't know a family with teenage girls who's not navigating mental health challenges.
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:37.599
Yeah.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.720
Like the research tells me they exist, but I can't name one.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.039
And teenage boys are just a half step behind.
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.839
Um teenage boys are always a half step behind.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:46.480
Yeah, that's true.
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:50.559
Yeah, that's a given, maybe in a lot of cases at least.
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.160
Uh and then you know what's happening with young people with technology?
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:54.720
Yes.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.759
And all that they're exposed to, you know, it that causes them in some ways to uh uh be.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.440
Be older and more mature, and in other ways, maybe be less mature.
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:12.000
So, you know, one of the lines that we have at the Full Youth Institute is 14 is the new 24, but 28 is the new 18.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:15.920
Which think about the young people you know, right?
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:18.880
Those 14-year-olds are really sophisticated.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:19.119
Yes.
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:22.000
And thanks to technology, know so much.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:26.720
But then those 28-year-olds are often kind of developmentally behind.
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:31.920
And so, you know, it's taking them a little bit longer to pass some of the traditional markers of adulthood.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.319
So, you know, and then think about our world.
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:36.640
I'll just add one more characteristic of what's different.
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:45.200
Our world is so fractured today, you know, in the church, outside of the church, there's just so much divisiveness and so many polarities these days.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.319
And so in comes a new generation.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:55.039
Um, what's constant, you know, you asked me what I would want folks to get out of this podcast.
00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:00.960
Somebody asked me uh a couple years ago, Kara, summarize all your research in one sentence.
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.960
I mean, that's like me saying, John, summarize all your sermons in one sentence.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.759
Love the Lord, you got with all your heart, soul mind, love your neighbors yourself.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:08.480
So they've been done.
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:09.519
Great, great, awesome.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.960
Well, well, you could do that uh at the drop of a hat, which is wonderful.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:24.400
So I kind of looked and thought for a few seconds, and I said, adolescent faith formation boils down to caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults accompanying young people in life and faith.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.079
Oh, you know, you gotta say that again.
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.400
Okay, yeah, and and I vetted it with our team.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:46.240
You know, I maybe tweaked it a little bit, added an adjective, perhaps, but but uh what I said two years ago, the team aligns with so adolescent faith formation boils down to caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults, accompanying young people in life and faith.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.720
I'll just highlight a couple words there.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:50.079
Accompany.
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:56.240
Um, we are doing a lot of exciting work with Catholics these days, especially through the 10 by 10 collaboration.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:59.279
And that is one of their favorite words for mentoring.
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.160
Interesting.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.720
And just journeying in life together.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:09.039
But they use it quite a bit for adults, uh walking with young people and the idea of accompanying.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:14.160
There's a beautiful mutuality there that we hope adults lean into.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:19.279
I I just picture there's that story in Luke after the resurrection of the Emmaus Road.
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:19.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:28.240
And a couple of the disciples are just crestfallen and they're on the road to Emmaus, and then they don't recognize him yet, but Jesus is walking with them.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:32.240
Yeah, and just accompanying them, yeah, and just walking together and talking.
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:32.640
Yeah.
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:34.880
And then they see the presence of God.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:36.799
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:43.519
I want to loop back to something related to that, but uh accompanying, um, and then if I can just point out trusted.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.119
You know, overall, if you look at the data at trust, we are a country that is not trusting others.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:52.240
That's true across generations.
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:54.640
Trust in institutions down at almost everything.
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:59.920
Exactly, and religious institutions and young people especially are distrustful.
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:02.880
And sadly, we've earned that lack of trust.
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:09.359
They look at the church as unloving, hypocritical, judgmental.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:13.599
And sadly, there's a lot of evidence that supports those theories.
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:21.359
Um, so that's why uh a trusted, caring, Jesus-centered adult who will accompany young people can mean so much.
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.039
And you know, the data on trust, this is so encouraging to me.
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.480
Um, the data on trust, it's not about heroic gestures.
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:29.519
It's not.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:34.960
The best data on trust, it's everyday acts of showing up at a soccer game.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:38.880
At it's it's asking a young person, hey, how can I be praying for you?
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:43.279
And then looping back 48 hours later and saying, Hey, I was praying for that science test.
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:44.960
Yeah, you know, how's it going?
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.759
The consistency and everyday small acts of showing you care.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.000
That's how this generation builds trust.
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:52.640
Wow.
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:53.440
Wow.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:58.160
So uh uh you wanted to loop back to that Emmaus deal.
00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:58.960
Yeah.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:16.000
So um we had a gathering at Fuller a few months ago, uh, thanks to a number of foundations who came together for a project that we called Rise, uh, resourcing the integration of spiritual and emotional health.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:17.599
So the H is silent.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.599
So we call it RISE.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.960
And we had uh 30, 40 practitioners, researchers gathered.
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:29.759
Um, and the talk that was the most impactful to me was Dave Wang.
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:31.200
I don't know if you spent much time with him.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:33.200
Yeah, fuller faculty member.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:38.240
His opening line was the Christian faith is built on a trauma.
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:41.920
The Christian faith is built on a trauma.
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.839
The resurrection is or the crucifixion, excuse me.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.640
The crucifixion is inherently traumatic.
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:52.960
And then he pointed out something from John 20 that I hadn't really grasped.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:58.640
Um and that was after the resurrection, Jesus still had scars.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:03.279
God could have erased those.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:09.119
And you would kind of think heaven, perfect bodies, you know, there'd be no blemish.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:09.599
Exactly.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:10.480
There's no tears.
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:11.519
That would be the ideal.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.119
The scars, the wounds stay.
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.519
But the resurrected Jesus had scars.
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:33.920
And so I think that's part of why young people these days are so drawn to Jesus, not necessarily the church, but Jesus, because they feel wounded, because they know their scars, and the idea that Jesus is a savior who had scars.
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:38.799
Um I got to share this with a young man who had been cutting.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:39.680
Wow.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:43.039
And he said, I have 50 scars on my body.
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:48.720
And the idea that I could say to him, Jesus relates, Jesus had scars.
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:55.839
So you know, there's a lot of talk about how young people are open, and we see that in our research.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.000
The Barner group has said that very well, that young people are really open to Jesus.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:16.400
And I think partly because this generation has gone through a lot of pain, they could relate to a savior who who brings together beauty, but also there's still signs of, I don't want to say brokenness, that's not quite right, but signs of wounds and healing.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:29.440
So I was thinking, you know, when I was in high school, to the extent that I understood it, the strategy of youth ministry was try to get the jocks and the cheerleaders to go to your church.
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:29.759
Yeah.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.839
And then everybody else will follow.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:32.319
Yeah.
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:33.759
Has that changed?
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.000
Yeah, it's a lot more splintered now.
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:44.720
Uh I mean, you know, those who we used to call the the knee the nerds or the geeks, they don't care that much about the jocks and the cheerleaders.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:50.960
And the jocks might not care about the cheerleaders, and the student government group doesn't care about the drama kids, etc.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:56.240
So it's it's a whole lot more fractured, which means we need more diverse adults.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:56.960
Yes, right?
00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:57.359
Yep.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.920
We need more diverse adults because again, you don't have to be the one who connects with the jocks and the cheerleaders.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:09.920
You can be your dorky self and connect with kids who are insecure, et cetera.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:10.160
Yeah.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:14.480
And we just need a whole bunch of different adults caring about kids.
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:22.559
In fact, part of what we would love to champion is it's not just your youth pastor who's a youth worker, everyone is a youth worker.
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:34.160
I I I remember part of the research that you did was looking at again, what I think about when I was growing up, churches would have a ratio of how many kids could be in a group per each adult.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:36.240
And you're thinking about that differently.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:37.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:43.680
And this was the brilliance of Chap Clark when he was at Fuller, and he coined this idea of the five to one ratio.
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:52.400
Uh, because in in every research project, no matter what question we start with, John, we always end up seeing the importance of intergenerational relationships.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.039
Again, caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adult.
00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:03.279
Whatever question we ask, you know, we're getting ready to do some new research on AI and we're looping back to caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults.
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.759
So Chap was seeing that in his research.
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.839
And so he came up with this idea that we need to reverse the five to one ratio.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:19.759
And what we mean by that is if I was to show up at your church or my church or any church and ask the youth pastor, the children's pastor, like, okay, what's what kind of ratio are you aiming for?
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:22.880
And they probably want like one adult for every five kids.
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:25.759
Um I got a retreat coming up, right?
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.400
Whatever we're doing, one adult for every five kids.
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:31.599
Well, what chap wisely said is what if we reverse that?
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:37.119
And it's not one adult for five kids, it's five adults for each kid.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:50.559
Not five small group leaders, not five Bible study leaders, but five adults who are showing up at a soccer game, five adults who are remembering a young person's birthday, five adults who are just that safe place.
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:55.599
And uh five is a good number, but three is great, you know, whatever.
00:30:55.759 --> 00:31:02.160
And and you know, we say to parents and step parents, hey, you don't have to keep this a secret from your kid.
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.039
Like, ask your kid, who would you like to get to know better?
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:08.319
When your kids are young, who would you like to be, who would you like to babysit?
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:09.680
This is what Dave and I did.
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:10.559
Oh, that's great.
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.200
So any parent that's watching right now, absolutely just ask your kid, who do you want to babysit?
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:20.559
Yeah, yeah, because I think about with our kids, that's a real quick indicator, like that person, don't want to be around that person.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:21.039
Totally.
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:23.039
And you need to get a babysitter anyway, right?
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:28.559
And so when you go to a person and say, hey, my kid has said they want to spend time with you, would you mind babysitting, you know, next Sunday night?
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:30.319
Like that's a pretty nice invitation.
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:32.160
Win-win-win for everybody, right?
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:35.119
For the kid, for the parent, and the adult who's getting invited.
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:37.440
Uh, when our kids got older, we played a game.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:38.960
Who would you talk to about?
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.799
You know, when they're in middle school, high school.
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:41.279
Oh, that's right.
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:44.079
You know, if you got if you got caught cheating, who would you talk to about it?
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:44.319
Wow.
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:47.599
And just get them thinking, what adults can they go to?
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:52.880
So I want to cycle back to something you just mentioned a moment ago, AI.
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:54.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:32:04.319
Lots of questions for folks with the emerging generation around obviously technology as a whole.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.559
Um, it's in particular, its impact, especially around emotional health.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:08.799
Yeah.
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:10.000
Jonathan Haidt.
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:10.480
Yeah.
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:15.440
Um, so I love what the research is indicating on that.
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:15.920
Yeah.
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.119
And then we'll shift over into AI in particular.
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:20.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.559
Young people are turning to AI.
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:31.759
You know, the percentages range, it's up to like 72%, according to one study of young people, are turning to AI for personal support.
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:33.119
Not just a Google.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:35.759
Just to get information, not just getting information.
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:43.839
Yeah, not just a fancy Google or a way to get a jump start on a homework assignment, but turning to turning to AI for personal support.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:50.240
Um, and now that's one of the higher estimates, you know, somewhere probably between 30 and 70 is the reality.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:55.119
But if you think about it, um, AI is a great sycophant, you know.
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:56.480
Oh, every time I use it.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.519
John, that's a brilliant question.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:58.000
Brilliant.
00:32:58.400 --> 00:32:59.759
John, that's a profound observation.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:01.920
John, you're on exactly the right track.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:04.480
Even when you correct AI, it says, you're right.
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:05.599
I admit that.
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:07.200
So thank you for correcting me.
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:08.559
I I shouldn't be so flattering.
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.599
I'll work on it.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:10.240
Exactly.
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:15.519
Yeah, I have to tell my AI, my AI, like, give me the brutal truth, like being critical with me.
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.039
Yeah, because it's been hard for me because Nancy tends to respond the same way.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:19.599
Totally.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:21.839
So it just indistinguishable.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:23.440
Yes, yes, absolutely.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:24.960
Yeah, because because that's your wife.
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:28.319
It's just uh 100% affirming no matter what she thinks.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:30.480
Um so I love your wife.
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:31.519
Um I do too.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:31.920
Yeah.
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:50.480
Um but I assume then, if the ratio is anywhere in that ballpark, kind of by definition, once the shift is from this could help me learn, this could help me acquire information, to I will become emotionally dependent on a non-person that's not a healthy development.
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:51.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:59.119
And uh you know, there is some data that about one out of four teenagers say AI knows me better than the people closest to me do.
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:00.480
One out of four.
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:02.160
Yeah, one out of four already.
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:03.440
Which is unprecedented.
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.960
I mean, no previous generation has faced that reality.
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:07.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:10.000
Social media took a lot longer to be adapted.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:12.079
AI, it's been like a tidal wave.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:27.039
So um we had a day with some Fuller faculty and other scholars, and one of them said something to the effect that if there's no someone to make you feel known, you'll turn to something.
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:28.960
Oh, yeah.
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:30.559
If there's no someone, you'll settle.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:31.920
Yeah.
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:38.239
Which is, I mean, when you think about idolatry as kind of idolatry as turning from someone to something.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:39.280
Something.
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:41.280
Yeah, I hadn't made that connection, Sean.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:42.159
That's really good.
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.840
So, um, so AI is here to stay.
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:48.159
You know, we're not gonna stop this tidal wave.
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:52.239
And for us, we look at it as an opportunity for the church.
00:34:52.320 --> 00:35:00.239
Yeah, like in the midst of machine learning, machine thinking becoming more prevalent, the need for humans is all the greater.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:11.039
So, you know, this is a clarion call for us as adults and as churches to say, okay, as AI is this tsunami, like we want to be there too, and we want to be present.
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:14.159
We want to be engaging young people in spiritual practices.
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.280
This has been a big theme.
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.519
I know that's something you talk about quite a bit.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.760
You know, we really want uh young people to embody their faith.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:28.719
I think one of the more interesting things that we've been talking about with scholars is also the role of friction in faith formation.
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:29.440
Say more.
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:30.000
Yeah.
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:35.440
Uh this is probably the most intriguing thing to me these days that, you know, AI makes my life easier.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:35.599
Yeah.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:37.920
I mean, I I use AI probably 10 times a day.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.199
I understand it's dangers.
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:47.440
I'm trying to do what I can about those dangers, but it's a as been said, it it kind of can become a teammate, not just a tool, but a but a teammate.
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:48.000
Yep.
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:51.440
So um, so there's a lot I love about AI.
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.800
Um I lost my train of thought.
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:55.599
Friction is a good idea.
00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:56.719
We were talking about friction.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:58.800
And I love things being easier, you know.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:03.920
I I I love hacks, but there are no hacks for interior formation.
00:36:28.900 --> 00:36:38.099
And when we come to expect that answers are easy, things come quickly, you know, what is that doing to our understanding of Romans 5, 3, and 4?
00:36:38.260 --> 00:36:42.099
Suffering leads to perseverance, perseverance, character, and character hope.
00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:52.579
You know, my kids who are 20 to 25, um they're so used to Amazon Prime delivery that, you know, if something takes two days, that's so unreasonable.
00:36:52.740 --> 00:36:55.139
It's like the dark ages for them, you know.
00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:58.179
Um, because everything is fast, everything is easy.
00:36:58.340 --> 00:37:00.340
So that's something else that we're asking.
00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:04.740
You know, friction and challenges are important for our overall formation.
00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:22.179
I was reading something quite recently, and it suggested, just to your point, that um if I never have to wait to find anything out, yeah, um, then uh I lose the power of curiosity to motivate and to help me to persist over time.
00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:22.420
Yeah.
00:37:22.659 --> 00:37:23.539
Now here's my question.
00:37:23.619 --> 00:37:31.139
So we have that observation how do I as an adult not move to oh these spoiled entitled young people?
00:37:31.780 --> 00:37:38.340
You know, back in my day, yeah, we had to work for it six miles uphill both ways to school through the snow.
00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:38.659
Yeah.
00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:43.860
How do I how do I absorb that information and not turn into that guy?
00:37:44.019 --> 00:37:44.659
Yeah.
00:37:44.980 --> 00:37:48.980
So what comes to mind is one of my favorite quotes from Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:56.260
This is my paraphrase real community is possible when I view myself as the chief sinner.
00:37:56.980 --> 00:38:08.579
When I view myself as the biggest sinner, if as I'm talking with you, if I'm viewing myself and in touch with my sin, I will see myself as more flawed than you.
00:38:09.139 --> 00:38:22.179
So whoever we're talking to, whatever the difference is, whether it's age, whether it's social economic status, whatever, whether it's political party, you know, whatever it might be, can I see myself as the bigger sinner?
00:38:22.420 --> 00:38:25.460
And I think that's part of how we can keep humble.
00:38:25.700 --> 00:38:30.500
So that I mean, coming back again to the main thing we want folks to take away without judging, yeah.
00:38:30.740 --> 00:38:39.059
Really what's behind judging wherever it comes from is a sense of superiority and a lack of humility and knowing myself as a sinner.
00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:39.300
Yeah.
00:38:39.460 --> 00:38:42.260
And it's like that just seeps into us in such deep ways.
00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:42.740
Totally.
00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:49.700
But that's what's coming out of me when I reflexively think about this generation in judgmental ways.
00:38:49.940 --> 00:38:50.659
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:50.980 --> 00:39:05.139
You know, one of the really good questions we get asked when we share how, especially Gen Alpha, but young people in general want to be listened to without being judged, is invariably there'll be an adult who raises their hand and says, but what if they're doing something wrong?
00:39:05.539 --> 00:39:06.980
What do I do then?
00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:07.380
Uh-huh.
00:39:07.700 --> 00:39:08.740
Totally fair question.
00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:14.980
You know, I'm not saying we're just bobbleheading our way through life and kind of smiling and nodding and everything that young people do.
00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:19.860
Sometimes with my own kids or young people I'm close to, there's something that I feel like I need to say to them.
00:39:20.019 --> 00:39:26.099
Um, one of our mantras is never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.
00:39:26.420 --> 00:39:27.059
Oh gosh.
00:39:27.220 --> 00:39:27.780
One more time.
00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:38.740
Never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, which, you know, I would give myself about a B minus at best at that, despite it being something I've been quoting for like five years.
00:39:38.980 --> 00:39:47.460
Um, so first, you know, when you have something that you want to talk about with a young person, can you can you make it about questions that you're asking?
00:39:47.700 --> 00:39:50.340
Now, my own kids, oh, you know, they catch on.
00:39:50.500 --> 00:39:54.980
And they have said, Mom, some of your questions, they're like quest gestions.
00:39:56.500 --> 00:39:58.340
And they're not wrong.
00:39:58.579 --> 00:40:02.900
So, you know, I'm I'm working on asking questions that are truly curious.
00:40:03.059 --> 00:40:06.500
Yes, and not trying to convince my kids of something.
00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:06.980
Yeah.
00:40:07.300 --> 00:40:11.380
Um, and I gotta say, this is You should do what I tell you to, don't you think?
00:40:11.700 --> 00:40:11.860
Right?
00:40:12.099 --> 00:40:12.900
Yeah, exactly.
00:40:13.059 --> 00:40:13.539
Exactly.
00:40:13.700 --> 00:40:17.780
Well, honestly, because of our research, uh, even though my kids are older, they're Gen Z.
00:40:18.099 --> 00:40:25.619
Um, you know, I really have been trying to, with the questions that I ask, how can I have them be as agenda-free as possible?
00:40:26.019 --> 00:40:26.820
Genuinely curious.
00:40:27.139 --> 00:40:28.179
Genuinely curious.
00:40:28.340 --> 00:40:32.179
Instead of wanting to drive them toward a particular destination.
00:40:32.420 --> 00:40:36.659
So with one of my daughters, she was trying to choose between A and B.
00:40:36.820 --> 00:40:38.980
And, you know, I thought A was better.
00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:43.059
But I said, Well, what do you think are some of the advantages of B?
00:40:43.619 --> 00:40:46.340
Which I don't know that I would have done before ever researched.
00:40:46.579 --> 00:40:50.820
I would have just camped out a lot on the advantages of A and the disadvantages of B.
00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:54.260
Now she ended up choosing A, but she might not have.
00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:58.420
But I'm glad that I was able to really help her think about both options.
00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:07.300
So, so you know, when it comes to when you see something that concerns you about a young person, can you ask questions of curiosity?
00:41:07.460 --> 00:41:11.780
Um, and in fact, we we recommend you start a question with, I'm curious.
00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:13.220
Oh, that's a great preface.
00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:14.500
Hey, I'm I'm curious.
00:41:14.659 --> 00:41:18.579
You know, you I know that you believe this, and then I see this happening in your life.
00:41:18.740 --> 00:41:21.300
Like, how do those two things come together for you?
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:22.579
That's something I've used.
00:41:22.659 --> 00:41:24.420
That framing is something I've used quite a bit.
00:41:24.500 --> 00:41:27.539
You say this, I've heard you believe this, but then I see this.
00:41:27.619 --> 00:41:29.220
Like, how does that come together?
00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:34.500
Um, but sometimes you do feel like, okay, I just need to tell a young person how I'm feeling.
00:41:34.579 --> 00:41:34.820
Right.
00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:38.579
Well, I stumbled onto this and it's worked really well for me.
00:41:38.740 --> 00:41:48.260
When you do feel like, okay, I need to share what I think is truth, what I think scripture is saying, what I ask after that is, what do you disagree with in what I've just said?
00:41:48.579 --> 00:41:50.260
And I let them critique me.
00:41:50.420 --> 00:41:50.820
Huh.
00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:53.940
And I'll tell you, especially my own kids, they love that.
00:41:54.099 --> 00:41:59.619
Like, you know, they've got a lot of thoughts of where I'm misunderstanding them or the situation, et cetera.
00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:12.340
But then when I follow up with, uh, well, you know, where might what I said maybe be right or have some a good point to it, then they seem to have been more open to affirm where I was right because I let them critique me first.
00:42:12.500 --> 00:42:22.740
So, so you know, bottom line, our recommendation is even when there's a truth you need to share, a principle you need to share, how do you make it a conversation following up with questions?
00:42:23.139 --> 00:42:32.019
A good friend of mine is realizing, because his wife pointed it out to him, that he has this verbal tick where he will say something and he always wants to persuade, so he'll follow that up with it.
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:32.740
Does that make sense?
00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:33.220
Yes.
00:42:33.380 --> 00:42:37.300
Oh, and he's realized that really he's not asking a question.
00:42:37.460 --> 00:42:38.579
He's just like, tell me I'm right.
00:42:38.820 --> 00:42:39.700
Say yes, say yes.
00:42:39.940 --> 00:42:45.860
And so talking through it, finding another statement like, but I'd really like to hear your opinion.
00:42:46.659 --> 00:42:50.099
Only then you have to get yourself to the place where you really do want to hear their opinions.
00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:51.940
Totally, totally, yeah.
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:58.900
I'm wondering if this judgmental thing might be tied to uh a book you may or may not know of.
00:42:59.059 --> 00:43:02.579
I think the number one selling book last year was a book called Let Them.
00:43:03.139 --> 00:43:04.500
I've heard of it, but I have not read it.
00:43:04.659 --> 00:43:08.659
I I've just read parts of it, but it was written by a woman, an influencer.
00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:10.500
We may come back to that word.
00:43:11.220 --> 00:43:19.300
And uh she she uh her kind of beginning anecdote was her son was going to a prom and he was doing it all wrong.
00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:27.460
You know, he had not made reservations at a restaurant, he hadn't bought a booth there, he hadn't arranged for transportation, and she's just going nuts on you have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this.
00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:30.659
And her daughter finally says, just let him but then won't have any food.
00:43:30.740 --> 00:43:30.980
Yes.
00:43:31.139 --> 00:43:31.700
Well let him.
00:43:31.860 --> 00:43:33.700
Yes, but then he wouldn't have a croissant to give him.
00:43:33.940 --> 00:43:34.500
Well let him.
00:43:34.579 --> 00:43:34.820
Yes.
00:43:35.059 --> 00:43:47.300
And so that let them which which you know I I sometimes will think about God in the garden where an angel would come and say, God, you gotta put a fence around that tree.
00:43:47.380 --> 00:44:01.059
You gotta tell them they get you know, let them, let them, uh that it's kind of an honoring somebody's kingdom, but yeah, and and that concept, uh, you know, it it's clearly striking a nerve.
00:44:01.380 --> 00:44:11.220
And I think especially with parents, um, let them, and I wonder if that's connected to that it's so powerful because there's a generation of young people who just feel judged.
00:44:11.380 --> 00:44:12.019
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:12.340 --> 00:44:28.579
And I I have heard an interview with the author of that book, and I think part of what's beauty and beautiful about let them is um part of why I care about whether or not my son has a corsage for the Prom to use the example that you just gave is because I have a picture of what prom should be.
00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:34.099
And I also, if I'll get real personal here, I want my kid to do it right.
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:34.420
Yep.
00:44:34.579 --> 00:44:35.300
I want to be the mom.
00:44:35.700 --> 00:44:37.460
Because it's a reflection on my parenthood.
00:44:37.700 --> 00:44:46.579
And if my kid does really good, then I want to be the mom whose son has it together and not the mom whose son, you know, is clueless and doesn't get together.
00:44:46.900 --> 00:44:50.340
I just think our children probably pick up on that a little bit more than we know.
00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:51.139
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:53.139
Okay, now you're getting convicting here, John.
00:44:53.619 --> 00:44:55.059
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:44:55.220 --> 00:44:58.659
So, you know, when you asked, how can we not judge?
00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:04.420
I shared about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but the other thought that came to mind is okay, let's just hold up the mirror to ourselves.
00:45:04.820 --> 00:45:15.940
And a lot of what we're judgmental about in young people, it's probably really our own insecurities, our own wanting to look a certain way as parents, grandparents, pastors, etc.
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:18.579
So what what are we bringing to this?
00:45:18.820 --> 00:45:28.099
No, it strikes me when you say that like research and data is really helpful and really good, but not mostly because it's going to give us technique and method.
00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:28.579
Yeah.
00:45:29.059 --> 00:45:36.500
Mostly it will reinforce or point out where my unhealth is damaging other people.
00:45:36.740 --> 00:45:36.900
Yeah.
00:45:37.139 --> 00:45:45.220
And I need to go back and be with God and work on my own self because that's they're kind of holding up a little mirror.
00:45:45.460 --> 00:45:46.099
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:51.059
Well, and uh you obviously know Dallas Willard far, far, far much better than I do.
00:45:51.220 --> 00:45:59.300
But you know, just looking at life as God's curriculum for us and relationships is our our constant lab in spiritual formation.
00:45:59.460 --> 00:46:02.740
And I'll tell you, nothing has formed me more than being a parent.
00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:03.059
Yeah.
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:04.019
There's nothing.
00:46:04.099 --> 00:46:04.260
Yeah.
00:46:04.420 --> 00:46:07.300
That more than being a pastor, more than being a professor.
00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:15.700
But unfortunately, a lot of folks, including a lot of us who do spiritual formation, don't talk much about parenthood as a spiritual discipline.
00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:16.740
Yeah, right.
00:46:16.900 --> 00:46:21.139
And I can remember when I first started out as a pastor talking about seeking the kingdom.
00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:25.300
And one of the women there said it was a lot easier for me to seek the kingdom first when I was in college.
00:46:26.260 --> 00:46:26.820
I said, How come?
00:46:26.900 --> 00:46:28.500
And she said, Well, then I had lots of free time.
00:46:28.659 --> 00:46:28.820
Sure.
00:46:28.980 --> 00:46:31.460
So I could get up early in the morning, I could read the Bible and pray.
00:46:31.539 --> 00:46:31.700
Yeah.
00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:34.500
And now I have two little kids and they're both under three years old.
00:46:34.579 --> 00:46:34.659
Yeah.
00:46:34.820 --> 00:46:35.940
And I can't do that anymore.
00:46:36.099 --> 00:46:36.179
Yeah.
00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:52.500
It was like nobody had ever told her maybe caring for, loving, serving two little children is bringing about transformation and pouring more love and spiritual change in you than memorizing the book of Isaiah.
00:46:52.579 --> 00:46:52.740
Yeah.
00:46:52.900 --> 00:46:54.659
But it's like that counts and that doesn't matter.
00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:55.220
It doesn't.
00:46:55.539 --> 00:46:56.179
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:56.340 --> 00:47:00.740
And even when you get frustrated with those two little kids, what is God trying to show you?
00:47:00.820 --> 00:47:00.980
Yeah.
00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:02.579
Or what is God's invitation?
00:47:02.659 --> 00:47:03.700
Well, use that wording.
00:47:04.019 --> 00:47:09.220
What is God's invitation for you in the midst of the parenting and grandparenting highs and lows?
00:47:09.539 --> 00:47:25.539
What is uh like I think is I hear you and read you very often, kind of the first uh direction, implication from research is to help churches figure out how do we how do we get uh church right for young people.
00:47:26.179 --> 00:47:27.940
Um let's take parents for a moment.
00:47:28.099 --> 00:47:28.500
Yeah.
00:47:28.659 --> 00:47:32.340
Um lots of people who are listening to us right now, yeah, our parents.
00:47:32.420 --> 00:47:32.740
Yeah.
00:47:33.139 --> 00:47:38.740
Uh when you think about the research that you have done and what it points to, what do parents most need to hear?
00:47:38.980 --> 00:47:39.220
Yeah.
00:47:39.380 --> 00:47:42.099
Well, let me start with some really encouraging news.
00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:46.019
Um, you know, research in the last handful of decades.
00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:47.860
Very few parents kill their children.
00:47:48.260 --> 00:47:48.579
Okay.
00:47:49.139 --> 00:47:49.300
Yes.
00:47:49.780 --> 00:47:52.740
Number one command, the most important of the ten commandments, thou shalt not kill.
00:47:52.900 --> 00:47:53.139
That's the same thing.
00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:54.019
Parents needed, yeah.
00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:54.340
Great.
00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:55.780
Okay, so we've crossed that hurdle.
00:47:55.940 --> 00:47:56.579
Excellent.
00:47:56.820 --> 00:48:04.659
Um, when you look at uh additional research, additional data in the last decades, you know, research is pretty clear.
00:48:04.820 --> 00:48:09.780
It's hard to find anything more important in a young person's faith formation than parents.
00:48:10.019 --> 00:48:16.099
So when I earlier said, you know, trusted Jesus-centered adults, that usually starts at home.
00:48:16.179 --> 00:48:18.500
Now, having said that, there's all sorts of exceptions.
00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:18.740
Right.
00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:22.579
We all know young people who have amazing parents and vice versa.
00:48:22.659 --> 00:48:24.659
And, you know, God works in mysterious ways.
00:48:24.740 --> 00:48:36.740
But when I look at the research, I've got to say, parents, there's nothing more important than you and your young person's faith formation, which is both encouraging and terrifying to uh you know unaware parent.
00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:47.539
What's different about Gen Alpha, and this has been fascinating in this our surveys of 3,000 of them so far, is that Gen Alpha is also verbalizing how important parents are.
00:48:47.780 --> 00:48:48.260
Really?
00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:48.740
Yeah.
00:48:50.019 --> 00:48:52.099
In ways that previous generations were not.
00:48:52.340 --> 00:48:52.900
Absolutely.
00:48:53.220 --> 00:48:53.780
Absolutely.
00:48:53.940 --> 00:49:00.900
So we talk a lot at Fuller about identity, belonging, and purpose as being the three big questions that young people are wrestling with.
00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:02.019
So who am I?
00:49:02.179 --> 00:49:03.860
Where do I fit and what difference can I make?
00:49:04.099 --> 00:49:04.659
Who am I with my family?
00:49:04.900 --> 00:49:06.420
Where do I fit and what difference can I make?
00:49:06.740 --> 00:49:14.260
So we've as we look at identity, belonging, and purpose and faith of Jen Alpha, 13 to 16, 17 year olds.
00:49:14.579 --> 00:49:21.300
I mean, John, I could show you graph after graph where family is ahead of friends, is ahead of church.
00:49:21.700 --> 00:49:24.900
Um, parents and grandparents are ahead of friends.
00:49:25.139 --> 00:49:28.980
Siblings are even uh pegging higher than we would have expected.
00:49:29.220 --> 00:49:29.539
Really?
00:49:29.700 --> 00:49:35.139
So there's something about this generation that they're more in touch with the influence of family.
00:49:35.380 --> 00:49:36.420
Now, why is that?
00:49:36.579 --> 00:49:37.619
We don't know for sure.
00:49:37.700 --> 00:49:38.980
We're still trying to figure that out.
00:49:39.139 --> 00:49:47.860
I think it's partly what we were talking about before that in the midst of the pandemic, in the midst of mental health, for many young people, home is a safer place than other places.
00:49:48.019 --> 00:49:52.579
Not all young people, and for some young people, home is really not safe, but for many, home is safe.
00:49:52.740 --> 00:50:00.099
I think the other thing is there's um there's a uh a form of parenting that facilitates family intimacy.
00:50:00.179 --> 00:50:02.820
It's gentle parenting, you know, that's a trend these days.
00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:03.619
It is a big trend.
00:50:03.860 --> 00:50:04.659
It is a big trend.
00:50:04.740 --> 00:50:07.220
Uh, you know, emotional regulation.
00:50:07.619 --> 00:50:10.579
We never talked about emotional regulation when I was parents.
00:50:11.059 --> 00:50:11.780
Wheel of emotions.
00:50:12.099 --> 00:50:13.139
Yeah, the feelings wheel.
00:50:13.460 --> 00:50:13.780
Exactly.
00:50:13.940 --> 00:50:14.260
Exactly.
00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:16.260
There's a lot of families who have that up on their fridge.
00:50:16.340 --> 00:50:16.500
Yeah.
00:50:16.659 --> 00:50:17.860
And I think it's a great tool.
00:50:18.019 --> 00:50:28.740
And I have told my kids, in fact, I told my girls uh a week ago, our 20 and 23-year-old daughters were over, and I told them something I've said many times before.
00:50:29.059 --> 00:50:37.619
What I would most redo as a parent is I would have given you more space to express your feelings, especially your anger and your sadness.
00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:41.380
You know, I kind of did, but then I had a phrase, pull it together.
00:50:42.740 --> 00:50:45.300
I mean, can't you just see me saying pull it together?
00:50:45.700 --> 00:50:47.300
It doesn't sound like me at all.
00:50:47.460 --> 00:50:48.500
It doesn't sound like you at all.
00:50:48.740 --> 00:50:49.139
Pull it together.
00:50:49.220 --> 00:50:50.420
And then I wouldn't even give a time frame.
00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:55.139
Like we'd be driving them, you got to pull it together by the time we get to grandma's house or, you know, whatever it is.
00:50:55.700 --> 00:51:01.139
And I can laugh about it with my girls now and our son, but I I would redo that.
00:51:01.220 --> 00:51:06.019
So I think there's something really beautiful about families making more space for emotions.
00:51:06.260 --> 00:51:17.700
There's certainly some downsides, and you know, teachers are starting to struggle as this wave of preschoolers and elementary kids come in who are very used to a adult, an adult attending to their emotions.
00:51:17.780 --> 00:51:19.700
And here's a teacher with 20 to 40 kids.
00:51:19.780 --> 00:51:30.659
So, you know, there's some downsides probably too, but um, but I do think there's a different family intimacy as we're more open about emotions that this generation is benefiting from.
00:51:30.900 --> 00:51:31.139
Yeah.
00:51:31.460 --> 00:51:32.740
Let me follow up on that one.
00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:42.260
I hadn't anticipated with this this direction, but parenting, children, moral and spiritual formation, how all that comes together is kind of fascinating to me.
00:51:42.340 --> 00:51:42.579
Yeah.
00:51:42.820 --> 00:51:54.340
And I think of like Deuteronomy 6:4, Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, him so you love, and then write down these laws, put them on your doorposts, teach them to your children.
00:51:54.579 --> 00:51:54.900
Yeah.
00:51:55.700 --> 00:52:06.179
So education generally has been understood, and certainly was in Israel, to include moral education and spiritual education.
00:52:06.420 --> 00:52:22.820
And part of the understanding was when children are growing up, they will all have desires and the great tension in life is learning to let go of what I happen to desire if it violates the good.
00:52:24.420 --> 00:52:25.940
Dallas would talk quite a lot about that.
00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:32.900
Yeah, that's he would essentially describe the battle between the flesh and spirit as flesh is a way of talking about I want this.
00:52:32.980 --> 00:52:35.619
Yeah, I want this toy, I want this happy meal, I want this job.
00:52:36.340 --> 00:52:38.340
And uh there's times when it violates the good.
00:52:38.500 --> 00:52:38.659
Yeah.
00:52:38.900 --> 00:52:45.059
So I have to learn to die to what I desire if it conflicts with the good.
00:52:46.260 --> 00:52:56.019
And uh that seems like it involves a certain kind of directedness and an expectation of correction.
00:52:56.179 --> 00:52:56.579
Yeah.
00:52:57.139 --> 00:53:05.139
Um that uh increasingly in a therapeutic age is a little tricky to pull off as a parent.
00:53:05.380 --> 00:53:05.700
Yeah.
00:53:06.019 --> 00:53:07.300
Uh and there was Dr.
00:53:07.460 --> 00:53:09.220
Spock a little before I was.
00:53:09.539 --> 00:53:10.659
Yeah, my mom read that.
00:53:10.980 --> 00:53:11.940
Gentle parenting.
00:53:12.019 --> 00:53:12.340
Yeah.
00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:31.780
Um how do you think about that kind of ancient understanding of uh the presence of sin as misguided desire, but then on the other hand, all of the ways in which that can become distorted, misguided.
00:53:31.940 --> 00:53:32.179
Yeah.
00:53:32.980 --> 00:53:39.780
I can remember when I was a kid too, there'd be certain kind of churches that would teach parents you must break the will of the child.
00:53:40.099 --> 00:53:40.579
Right, sure.
00:53:40.659 --> 00:53:40.980
Totally.
00:53:41.220 --> 00:53:42.340
And do enormous damage.
00:53:42.820 --> 00:53:44.579
And it's like, nope, that's not the idea.
00:53:44.740 --> 00:53:45.300
Mm-hmm.
00:53:46.340 --> 00:53:49.380
Let me share something else I wish I had done differently as a parent.
00:53:49.460 --> 00:53:52.500
Um, that maybe is a way to tangibilize what you said.
00:53:52.579 --> 00:53:54.019
And I I learned this from another parent.
00:53:54.099 --> 00:54:00.980
And part of what I love about my job is I get to spend time just listening and talking to parents and grandparents, pastors, leaders.
00:54:01.139 --> 00:54:07.539
Um, and this one parent said, you know, one of the big themes in our family was Jesus is best.
00:54:08.260 --> 00:54:08.980
Oh, I love it.
00:54:09.220 --> 00:54:09.940
Isn't that good?
00:54:10.099 --> 00:54:10.820
Yeah, yeah.
00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:11.300
Yep.
00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:15.300
I heard that a couple of years ago, and I thought, wow, that would have been a really helpful way.
00:54:15.539 --> 00:54:16.099
That would have been.
00:54:16.340 --> 00:54:18.659
You know, for a four-year-old or for a 14-year-old.
00:54:18.900 --> 00:54:19.220
Yep.
00:54:19.380 --> 00:54:21.700
Like Jesus, Jesus is best.
00:54:21.860 --> 00:54:23.940
So do you run much into this?
00:54:24.099 --> 00:54:33.059
The this will uh probably not tend to be inside the church much, but certainly in the culture some children are not old enough to give informed consent.
00:54:33.460 --> 00:54:40.980
So parents should not take them to church, shouldn't teach them that the Bible is true, um, shouldn't have them be praying to Jesus.
00:54:41.220 --> 00:54:45.619
They should just wait until they are old enough to make a decision on their own.
00:54:45.780 --> 00:54:46.980
Do you do you run into that much?
00:54:47.059 --> 00:54:48.179
And how do you respond to it?
00:54:48.500 --> 00:54:57.940
I don't run into it very much, and I would respond to it by saying in so many other areas, we do give structured education and formation to kids.
00:54:58.099 --> 00:55:03.940
So, you know, they they take math classes, they take history, they are on swim teams, et cetera.
00:55:04.019 --> 00:55:08.019
So why would we not have exposure to the Christian community?
00:55:08.099 --> 00:55:09.380
Um, be part of it.
00:55:09.460 --> 00:55:14.179
And that includes, you know, some structured content, intergenerational mentoring, etc.
00:55:14.579 --> 00:55:19.460
The question that we do run into a lot is hey, my 14-year-old doesn't want to go to church anymore.
00:55:19.619 --> 00:55:20.019
What do I do?
00:55:20.260 --> 00:55:21.220
Yeah, what do you what do you say?
00:55:21.460 --> 00:55:22.740
That's an omnipresent question.
00:55:23.059 --> 00:55:24.260
So uh a couple things.
00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:31.940
Number one, um, Eugene Peterson has this great phrase in one of his his in his book, uh, like do for youth, which is such an odd title.
00:55:32.019 --> 00:55:36.500
But um anyway, it's a quote from scripture um that is about parenting.
00:55:36.980 --> 00:55:41.220
And he says, you know, keep your kid in the conversation.
00:55:41.860 --> 00:55:48.420
So if your kid doesn't want to be in the faith community, how do you keep your kid in the conversation?
00:55:48.659 --> 00:55:50.579
So so what does that actually look like?
00:55:50.740 --> 00:55:57.460
What we recommend to parents and caregivers is so ask your kid, you know, is there another church you would like to try out?
00:55:57.700 --> 00:56:02.260
And then you as a parent be willing to go to that other church.
00:56:02.500 --> 00:56:09.139
We tell parents, I tell parents all the time, your young person's faith formation should be your priority now.
00:56:09.300 --> 00:56:13.940
You know, you can listen to sermons, you can listen to worship, you can get fed other ways.
00:56:14.099 --> 00:56:16.500
Please lean into what what your kid wants.
00:56:16.820 --> 00:56:18.340
So, you know, is there another church?
00:56:18.420 --> 00:56:19.300
Is there a young life?
00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:21.380
Is there a youth for Christ that your kid would want to go to?
00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:22.900
Or another person, mentoring.
00:56:23.139 --> 00:56:24.179
Another exactly, exactly.
00:56:24.260 --> 00:56:25.539
Who's who's another person?
00:56:25.700 --> 00:56:36.659
The other thing I would say, and I used to say this as a youth pastor, you know, going on an overnight or a weekend retreat is worth about six months of going on Sunday mornings, just in terms of social connections.
00:56:36.820 --> 00:56:41.380
Because usually when a kid says, I don't want to go to church, it's because they don't feel connected socially.
00:56:41.619 --> 00:56:45.220
They might say, Oh, I don't like the teaching, you know, or the theological boat.
00:56:45.700 --> 00:56:45.860
Totally.
00:56:46.179 --> 00:56:46.820
They'll use something.
00:56:47.539 --> 00:56:48.340
Nine out of ten times.
00:56:48.820 --> 00:56:50.820
If there's somebody in the other room who likes them, totally.
00:56:51.059 --> 00:56:53.300
Then they or they had an adult they felt comfortable with.
00:56:53.460 --> 00:56:53.619
Yeah.
00:56:53.780 --> 00:57:01.139
And so, you know, we regularly recommend to parents look at look at the next six, nine months of your youth ministry events and ask your kid to choose one.
00:57:01.300 --> 00:57:01.460
Yeah.
00:57:01.619 --> 00:57:06.019
Choose one something beyond a Sunday, one all day, one overnight or one retreat.
00:57:06.179 --> 00:57:08.900
And that's what they're going to to give it an attempt.
00:57:09.059 --> 00:57:19.619
And so, in fact, I just had this parent um reach out to us, and I was getting to know her, and her daughter really didn't want to go to camp, and there were some developmental differences, et cetera.
00:57:19.780 --> 00:57:25.940
And she went to camp, and um, you know, by hour one, she was mixing it up with all the kids.
00:57:26.179 --> 00:57:35.139
So, you know, that kid who doesn't want to get out of your van and go to camp, often by hour one or two, you know, they have totally immersed themselves in the community.
00:57:35.300 --> 00:57:37.780
So, so yes, is there another community?
00:57:37.940 --> 00:57:38.900
Is there an adult?
00:57:39.059 --> 00:57:44.659
Can we pick something beyond just Sunday morning that you can really connect with others relationally?
00:57:44.820 --> 00:57:48.740
So, so since you're giving direction, I'm gonna ask you to give some of the pastors.
00:57:48.980 --> 00:57:49.380
Oh, okay.
00:57:49.539 --> 00:57:55.380
And I'm thinking in particular now of I'm thinking of churches where um they really have a lot to offer.
00:57:55.619 --> 00:58:05.220
Maybe the church has been around for quite a while, yeah, but it's aged and there are not uh any or not many children, not any or many young people.
00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:06.099
Yeah, very kind.
00:58:06.340 --> 00:58:11.860
And the leadership might say, well, if they came, we would come up with something for them.
00:58:12.019 --> 00:58:12.340
Yeah.
00:58:12.659 --> 00:58:15.380
But if there's nothing for them, they're not gonna come.
00:58:15.539 --> 00:58:15.780
Yeah.
00:58:16.019 --> 00:58:19.139
What would you say to that church, to that pastor?
00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:19.940
Yeah.
00:58:20.500 --> 00:58:22.500
Two streams of thought for that question.
00:58:22.659 --> 00:58:26.980
First, I would ask that pastor, how are you prioritizing young people?
00:58:27.460 --> 00:58:39.300
Because some of the most depressing research that we've done in the last two years was we did a survey of 600 senior pastors and asked them where young people fell and their priorities.
00:58:39.539 --> 00:58:42.019
And only, you might not be surprised by this.
00:58:42.099 --> 00:58:43.619
I was and disheartened.
00:58:43.780 --> 00:58:51.619
Um, I'll say only one third of the senior pastors who responded to our survey said young people were in their top five priorities.
00:58:51.860 --> 00:58:52.099
Wow.
00:58:52.340 --> 00:58:53.220
Thank you for saying wow.
00:58:53.300 --> 00:58:55.139
Yeah, top five priorities.
00:58:55.380 --> 00:59:00.099
So think about you know what else is up there that young people are six through ten.
00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:04.900
And then to make it worse, you know, this was a survey from the Fuller Youth Institute.
00:59:04.980 --> 00:59:07.539
So if anything, it's gonna That should have prompted it.
00:59:07.619 --> 00:59:11.220
It's gonna lean towards like a social desirability bias that's supposed to be.
00:59:11.539 --> 00:59:11.780
Exactly.
00:59:11.860 --> 00:59:12.980
There's definitely a bias there.
00:59:13.059 --> 00:59:15.539
So if anything, the one-third is a little bit high.
00:59:15.780 --> 00:59:19.619
So, you know, that's the first question we love asking pastors and church boards.
00:59:19.700 --> 00:59:21.619
Like, how are you prioritizing young people?
00:59:21.700 --> 00:59:22.740
And let's get tangible.
00:59:22.900 --> 00:59:26.260
What kind of resources are you uh allocating to them?
00:59:26.420 --> 00:59:33.940
Um, and and I mean money and I mean time and I mean energy and I mean facility, because young people can tell if they're a priority or not.
00:59:34.099 --> 00:59:38.500
Senior pastor, how much time are you spending with young people, getting to know them?
00:59:38.659 --> 00:59:44.500
Um so that is that is one thing I would say is, you know, really are you prioritizing young people?
00:59:44.659 --> 00:59:47.300
And then this is just the theme here.
00:59:47.539 --> 00:59:48.980
Are you listening to young people?
00:59:49.059 --> 00:59:49.300
Yeah.
00:59:49.460 --> 01:00:01.380
So, you know, one of the first steps we recommend to churches who say, we don't have any young people, they've all left, is to say, well, why don't you go back to the young people who have left and ask them, yeah, well, why did you leave?
01:00:01.460 --> 01:00:02.420
What could have made a difference?
01:00:02.579 --> 01:00:04.900
Hey, would you like to be a part of something new?
01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:05.220
Yeah.
01:00:05.380 --> 01:00:08.420
And, you know, maybe they're all 16, 17, they've moved on.
01:00:08.500 --> 01:00:20.019
Well, who are your 10 and 11-year-olds, your 12-year-olds who you can start building a relationship now and who can become a strong middle school ministry that becomes a strong youth ministry and so on and so forth because you've listened to them.
01:00:20.179 --> 01:00:23.460
So, yeah, prioritization, real tangible on that.
01:00:23.619 --> 01:00:26.260
You know, your budget is a manifesto of your priorities.
01:00:26.820 --> 01:00:27.460
Yep.
01:00:27.940 --> 01:00:30.420
So, where are young people in your budget?
01:00:30.500 --> 01:00:30.740
Yeah.
01:00:30.980 --> 01:00:33.539
And then um how you're actually listening.
01:00:33.780 --> 01:00:36.900
And if there's pastors listening to us now, are there resources?
01:00:36.980 --> 01:00:43.139
Are there churches that are learning how to do it right, places that you point people to where, like, if you're serious about it, here's where you can get some help.
01:00:43.300 --> 01:00:43.460
Yeah.
01:00:43.619 --> 01:00:45.700
Can they get it from uh from Fuller?
01:00:45.940 --> 01:00:46.500
Yeah, absolutely.
01:00:46.579 --> 01:00:51.059
Please go to Foleyouthinstitute.org and sign up for our free every week email.
01:00:51.220 --> 01:00:56.980
We also have a free John Alpha report um that that goes is a deep dive into all of our research.
01:00:57.059 --> 01:00:59.460
And we're only about two-thirds of the way done with our research.
01:00:59.539 --> 01:01:01.539
So we'll have more free reports coming out.
01:01:01.700 --> 01:01:17.059
And then also for churches that really want to engage with young people, Growing Young has been a book that's really connected with them, where we look at, because we studied several hundred churches that had prior that that were growing with young people, hence the title, Growing Young.
01:01:17.539 --> 01:01:18.820
What is it that they did?
01:01:18.980 --> 01:01:23.780
And we specifically get into prioritization because that was one of the six things that churches do.
01:01:23.940 --> 01:01:28.740
Is that in fact that was often the fork in the road whether a church was prioritizing young people.
01:01:28.980 --> 01:01:29.220
Wow.
01:01:29.380 --> 01:01:30.260
So yeah.
01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:35.539
So that so that book has a lot of great uh ideas on how churches are prioritizing young people.
01:01:35.940 --> 01:01:43.220
Yeah, ask you uh about pastors, because obviously you're involved also and at a place that's involved in equipping pastors.
01:01:43.380 --> 01:01:43.700
Yeah.
01:01:44.340 --> 01:01:49.619
Lots of information about fewer people going into pastoring, they're getting older, they're leaving.
01:01:49.780 --> 01:01:50.099
Yeah.
01:01:50.500 --> 01:01:54.579
Um, you have watched lots of pastors who don't end well.
01:01:54.740 --> 01:01:55.220
Yeah.
01:01:55.539 --> 01:01:58.500
Um how do you think about that?
01:01:58.659 --> 01:02:04.340
What does the church need to do to be uh attracting healthy pastors?
01:02:04.579 --> 01:02:11.460
What kind of damage does it do when somebody who's in a leadership position does not navigate life with integrity?
01:02:11.619 --> 01:02:12.500
How do you think through that?
01:02:12.820 --> 01:02:15.860
Yeah, well, I'll just start with the last question.
01:02:16.099 --> 01:02:17.380
It does a lot of damage.
01:02:17.460 --> 01:02:17.940
Yeah.
01:02:18.500 --> 01:02:21.619
Um I'll answer your earlier questions.
01:02:21.700 --> 01:02:28.820
Uh we haven't talked about this, John, but um we've we've really tried to listen to denominations in the last three or four months.
01:02:28.900 --> 01:02:41.059
So we've talked to 10 different denominations, uh, Protestant denominations, mainline evangelical, and we've asked them what are your top three needs, opportunities, you know, top three questions you're wrestling with.
01:02:41.300 --> 01:02:44.340
Every single one of them is saying next gen leadership pipeline.
01:02:44.500 --> 01:02:44.740
Wow.
01:02:44.900 --> 01:02:46.659
And often it's number one.
01:02:47.059 --> 01:02:52.740
Um, and that's not just true with mainline denominations where the aging is more obvious.
01:02:52.900 --> 01:03:04.500
So I would say, and and in the midst of denominations saying that this is a question for them, um, not many are prioritizing it and listening to young people.
01:03:04.659 --> 01:03:09.300
So there is one denomination that said, you know, Fuller, we'd really love to work with you on this.
01:03:09.460 --> 01:03:15.300
And so we're now creating a partnership with them where both it is gonna be both top-down and bottom-up.
01:03:15.539 --> 01:03:16.820
How do we invest in young people?
01:03:16.900 --> 01:03:24.099
And it's gonna start by listening to young people and listening to young people who are in ministry and what led them on that journey.
01:03:24.260 --> 01:03:30.740
So it's the same principles prioritization and listening, whether it's an individual church or a network or a denomination.
01:03:31.059 --> 01:03:32.900
I I hadn't thought about that, but I've took the numbers.
01:03:33.059 --> 01:03:41.380
This is just an anecdotal, but number of folks who would say the pipeline of people who are going into student ministry, youth ministry is drying up, getting smaller.
01:03:41.539 --> 01:03:41.780
Yeah.
01:03:42.019 --> 01:03:50.579
And historically, that was the single biggest feeder into people that would then go into becoming senior pastors or whatever the language would be.
01:03:50.659 --> 01:03:50.820
Yeah.
01:03:51.059 --> 01:03:55.059
So what's happening there is now impact, impacting what's happening there.
01:03:55.300 --> 01:03:56.579
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
01:03:56.740 --> 01:04:08.019
And you know, somebody who cares about young people, I do think part of that is because uh the typical youth pastor job is often not sustainable for anybody, um, not financially sustainable.
01:04:08.099 --> 01:04:08.260
Yeah.
01:04:08.500 --> 01:04:09.860
So they just can't make it.
01:04:09.940 --> 01:04:13.860
And so they move into another career or a different form of pastoral ministry.
01:04:13.940 --> 01:04:19.940
So, so yeah, there's some brokenness inherently, uh, or some existing brokenness in how young people are.
01:04:20.500 --> 01:04:29.380
There's some existing brokenness in how young adults especially are entering ministry that we need to give them more mentoring, if we can, more financial support.
01:04:29.619 --> 01:04:33.700
I would say more training and education to degreed and non-degreed.
01:04:33.940 --> 01:04:36.820
So uh a much better on-ramp is what we need.
01:04:37.139 --> 01:04:39.460
Um, another research question.
01:04:39.700 --> 01:04:46.500
Uh, you know, I I'm interested a lot in how do people get formed spiritually?
01:04:46.659 --> 01:04:46.980
Yeah.
01:04:47.380 --> 01:04:52.420
Um most of that, most of what's written about that is written about adults.
01:04:52.500 --> 01:04:53.059
Yeah.
01:04:53.300 --> 01:05:01.059
Um, and there's been lots of stuff written over the last few decades about the role of spiritual practices and community and so on.
01:05:01.380 --> 01:05:04.420
Not as much around children or young people.
01:05:04.579 --> 01:05:04.900
Yeah.
01:05:05.139 --> 01:05:10.500
How do you think about approaching formation with young people?
01:05:10.659 --> 01:05:12.179
What should parents be thinking about?
01:05:12.340 --> 01:05:12.659
Yeah.
01:05:12.820 --> 01:05:15.220
Um, what's effective, what works, what doesn't work.
01:05:15.380 --> 01:05:15.619
Yeah.
01:05:15.860 --> 01:05:23.940
Well, the good news is that there is more work being done on this with both children and adolescents, thanks to the investment of the Lily Endowment.
01:05:24.099 --> 01:05:27.059
So they specifically have initiatives on children and worship.
01:05:27.139 --> 01:05:29.380
That's a major national initiative of theirs.
01:05:29.539 --> 01:05:34.420
Uh, and then uh faith in AI, how to form young people in the midst of an age of AI.
01:05:34.659 --> 01:05:38.019
So there's gonna be more and more resources out, definitely.
01:05:38.260 --> 01:05:41.619
I remember you probably remember an author, Larry Crab, psychologist.
01:05:42.099 --> 01:05:46.579
When he had kids, he actually bought an overhead projector for family devotions.
01:05:46.659 --> 01:05:46.820
Yes.
01:05:47.059 --> 01:05:48.019
I am not kidding.
01:05:48.179 --> 01:05:50.099
And apparently did not go all that well.
01:05:50.340 --> 01:05:51.059
Yeah, yeah.
01:05:51.300 --> 01:05:55.460
So uh when I was growing up, that's the kind of the people who talk about family devotions.
01:05:55.780 --> 01:05:58.420
Periodically, families would try them, they would always be a disaster.
01:05:58.500 --> 01:06:01.220
I don't know of any family that had them where they weren't great.
01:06:01.300 --> 01:06:05.700
Yeah, but I think a lot of parents feel probably a low level of guilt.
01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:06.260
Yeah.
01:06:06.500 --> 01:06:07.539
For all they're not doing.
01:06:07.780 --> 01:06:11.139
Yeah, for yeah, for for not knowing how do we help spiritually form our children.
01:06:11.380 --> 01:06:11.940
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:12.099 --> 01:06:18.019
So, you know, as you're talking, uh I think every family needs ideally would figure out what really works for them.
01:06:18.260 --> 01:06:20.659
Are they a family where it's more about discussion?
01:06:21.059 --> 01:06:31.460
You know, I have a colleague at Fuller who has young kids and Every Sunday they do act out church where the family, parents included, act out a scripture passage and then talk about it.
01:06:31.619 --> 01:06:33.700
Like that would not have worked with my husband.
01:06:33.940 --> 01:06:34.820
I would just say that.
01:06:35.059 --> 01:06:36.740
He's a more reserved engineer.
01:06:37.139 --> 01:06:39.700
But for this family, like act out church is great.
01:06:39.780 --> 01:06:41.059
My husband hates charades.
01:06:41.380 --> 01:06:45.539
Act Out Church would not have worked for the pals, but it certainly worked for this other family.
01:06:45.700 --> 01:06:48.099
So, so you know, are you a family that wants to talk about it?
01:06:48.260 --> 01:06:52.740
Are you a family that wants to explore God's creation more as a way to connect?
01:06:52.900 --> 01:06:53.220
Yeah.
01:06:53.619 --> 01:07:06.579
You know, I my because I know more about teenagers than I do children, I will say one of my favorite questions, in fact, I just asked my son about this uh recently and my daughter about this recently, is when do you feel closest to God?
01:07:06.820 --> 01:07:08.500
Oh, that's a great question.
01:07:09.220 --> 01:07:11.300
We should all be asking that question of each other, right?
01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:11.619
Yes.
01:07:11.780 --> 01:07:13.220
When do you feel closest to God?
01:07:13.539 --> 01:07:17.619
And then as a parent, how can I help my kid get more of that time?
01:07:18.260 --> 01:07:25.300
So, you know, when our kids were in our church's youth ministry, for one of our daughters, she felt closest to God when she was with Christian friends.
01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:27.940
She said, I feel closest to God, Mom, when I'm with friends from church.
01:07:28.099 --> 01:07:30.019
Okay, how do we make sure you get a lot of that time?
01:07:30.179 --> 01:07:33.700
Another one of our daughters said, I feel closest to God when I am in nature.
01:07:33.860 --> 01:07:35.539
She'd love to hang out in our backyard.
01:07:35.619 --> 01:07:37.700
How do we make sure she gets a lot of outdoors time?
01:07:37.860 --> 01:07:43.619
Our son would say, I feel closest to God uh when I'm leading worship, because he played guitar.
01:07:44.179 --> 01:07:47.139
So um, a confession here as a parent.
01:07:47.300 --> 01:07:51.300
So, in order to play guitar, he had to go to once-a-week worship practice.
01:07:51.460 --> 01:07:57.139
And before he got his driver's license, guess who had to drive him to worship practice on Thursday nights?
01:07:57.460 --> 01:07:58.900
Either me or my husband.
01:07:59.139 --> 01:08:03.940
And so, you know, there were times where uh Nathan, do you really know I'm glad to say, really?
01:08:04.099 --> 01:08:04.980
Did you really have to go?
01:08:05.139 --> 01:08:07.059
Don't you kind of already know the songs?
01:08:07.220 --> 01:08:14.179
Um, but first off, he would say worship rehearsal was one of the times where he did feel closest to God because there was no audience.
01:08:14.340 --> 01:08:17.619
So it's the songs without any kind of pressure to perform.
01:08:17.859 --> 01:08:21.539
And then also that was allowed him to play on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights.
01:08:21.699 --> 01:08:31.539
And so, you know, I would suck it up as a parent and get my boy to worship practice most weeks, not every week, because I knew that's when he felt closest.
01:08:31.699 --> 01:08:36.019
So again, when is it for your family, your kid, when do you feel closest to God?
01:08:36.179 --> 01:08:38.099
I mean, for my husband and me, it's different.
01:08:38.260 --> 01:08:46.099
Yeah, I feel closest to God, like Bible on lap, journal in the other hand, you know, kind of your prototypical quiet time.
01:08:46.339 --> 01:08:49.139
My husband, he feels closest to God, hammer in hand.
01:08:49.299 --> 01:08:49.699
Yeah.
01:08:49.939 --> 01:08:51.859
He, you know, he loves serving.
01:08:51.939 --> 01:08:52.179
Yes.
01:08:52.339 --> 01:08:56.739
And so, how do I make sure that he gets all the service time that he needs and wants?
01:08:56.819 --> 01:08:59.939
And how do I make sure I have that time that I need in the morning?
01:09:00.259 --> 01:09:05.139
And then coming back to that initial thought, not judge each other, not how come you're not more like me.
01:09:05.299 --> 01:09:11.059
Oh, told I didn't think my husband was spiritual enough when we were dating because he didn't seek God like I did.
01:09:11.139 --> 01:09:11.299
Yeah.
01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:16.579
And instead, we've learned to learn from each other and appreciate that spirituality in each other.
01:09:16.979 --> 01:09:28.099
Kind of a hot question in a lot of circles, especially because there's been such a long decline of uh church attendance, belief in God, rise of the nuns, rise of what you guys call the ums.
01:09:28.259 --> 01:09:28.899
Yeah, yeah.
01:09:29.059 --> 01:09:32.419
Um, and then people are wondering now, has that ended?
01:09:32.500 --> 01:09:33.859
Is there revival?
01:09:34.019 --> 01:09:35.859
Yes, that's a question we get asked all the time.
01:09:35.939 --> 01:09:40.019
Yeah, and ums, by the way, uh we write about this in Future Focus Church.
01:09:40.179 --> 01:09:43.699
Ums are young people who you ask them, you know, are you connected with the church?
01:09:43.939 --> 01:09:48.899
Um usually not really, or kinda is the answer.
01:09:49.139 --> 01:09:55.379
Um, first off, this question of revival, we do get asked it quite a bit, uh, especially by leaders.
01:09:55.539 --> 01:09:57.939
And I appreciate what Ed Stetzer says.
01:09:58.019 --> 01:10:01.699
Uh, if you're wondering if you're in revival, you're probably not in revival.
01:10:01.859 --> 01:10:04.500
So, you know, let me just say, let's use that as a ground rule.
01:10:04.659 --> 01:10:10.500
Um, there are certainly some exciting bright spots in young people, especially on college campuses.
01:10:10.579 --> 01:10:17.219
I'm on the board of InterVarsity, InterVarsity crew and other more, you know, independent autonomous ministries.
01:10:17.299 --> 01:10:24.339
They're seeing some awesome surges in college campuses, you know, spontaneous water baptisms on college campuses.
01:10:24.500 --> 01:10:31.299
Um, you know, I know someone who's been doing college ministry who's getting a shoulder injury from all the baptisms that she's doing.
01:10:31.539 --> 01:10:31.939
That's pretty good.
01:10:32.179 --> 01:10:35.379
You know, so if you're gonna get injured, that's a good reason to get injured.
01:10:35.539 --> 01:10:39.059
So um, so there certainly are bright spots on college campuses.
01:10:39.299 --> 01:10:50.579
However, uh, if you look overall at religious participation in community as well as religious practices, we're not yet seeing a surge in young people.
01:10:50.739 --> 01:10:54.019
Um there are bright spots, college campuses, especially the South.
01:10:54.179 --> 01:11:03.059
But overall, if we're looking at 13 to 29-year-olds, there's some positive ticks to be sure, but but we would say we're not quite ready to call it revival.
01:11:03.299 --> 01:11:13.139
Um, I'll go back to our Gen Alpha work though, John, uh, because we we um interviewed not just kids who identified as Christians, but about 50% of our sample.
01:11:13.299 --> 01:11:18.419
So about 1,500 teenagers didn't identify as Christians, either nuns or different religions.
01:11:18.579 --> 01:11:28.179
Um and when we asked them about their openness to spirituality, uh, 41% were not open to spirituality, greater spirituality.
01:11:28.419 --> 01:11:31.299
But if we do the math, that means 59% are.
01:11:31.939 --> 01:11:32.179
Yeah.
01:11:32.339 --> 01:11:32.659
Wow.
01:11:32.979 --> 01:11:38.099
So we we see this generation as being very open to revival.
01:11:38.259 --> 01:11:49.379
I mean, maybe so post-Christian they're almost pre-Christian, um, more of a blank slate in some ways, not quite as hurt by the church, more of a blank slate, yeah, more open, especially to Jesus.
01:11:49.619 --> 01:11:50.500
Yeah, yeah.
01:11:50.739 --> 01:12:10.659
How about uh there's been a lot written about uh like the younger generation now engaged in less risky behavior, uh less drinking, less sexual involvement, so things that might avoid problems, but also might not necessarily be driven by virtue acquisition.
01:12:10.899 --> 01:12:16.019
Yeah how what are you learning about the role of risk in life and what that means?
01:12:16.659 --> 01:12:18.259
That is, thank you for mentioning that.
01:12:18.500 --> 01:12:20.419
You know, back to mental health.
01:12:20.500 --> 01:12:28.099
It's hard to know for sure that it's hard to point to any singular cause that's leading to these mental health challenges with young people.
01:12:28.339 --> 01:12:35.299
And or, but um, there does seem to be a correlation with cell phones becoming more ubiquitous, more common.
01:12:35.619 --> 01:12:45.219
Right about that time, mental health risk behaviors increased, and other risk behaviors like drinking, sex, partying, behavioral, drugs, behavioral decreased.
01:12:45.299 --> 01:12:45.460
Yeah.
01:12:45.539 --> 01:12:54.979
So, in other words, the risk behaviors that one would engage in by themselves in their room when they see other people having a better time on a Friday night than they are, that's going up.
01:12:55.059 --> 01:12:58.899
Yeah, but the risk behaviors that involve engaging with others are going down.
01:12:59.219 --> 01:13:01.219
So, so that's one thing I want to say.
01:13:01.379 --> 01:13:09.779
The other thing I will say is we've been in the midst of our gen alpha research, we've been playing with, you know, what adjectives would we use to describe this generation?
01:13:10.019 --> 01:13:17.059
And one of the adjectives that's that leaders especially are very much resonating with is they are cautious.
01:13:17.379 --> 01:13:18.419
They are cautious.
01:13:18.659 --> 01:13:19.139
Interesting.
01:13:19.379 --> 01:13:26.500
This is less of a generation that wants to go change the world, like you know, some of us youth group kids from the 80s and 90s wanted to do.
01:13:26.739 --> 01:13:31.939
This is a generation, uh, you know, again, talking to youth pastors, talking to college workers.
01:13:32.099 --> 01:13:36.099
When they have a if there's a retreat coming up, a kid doesn't just sign up.
01:13:36.179 --> 01:13:40.099
Yeah, kid wants to know, okay, where are we gonna sleep and what's the food gonna be?
01:13:40.259 --> 01:13:44.019
And they just need a little bit more information to feel secure.
01:13:44.179 --> 01:13:54.579
So uh, you know, I appreciate that ministries are trying to offer more information and schedules of what's coming up and all that, um, so that young people feel safe and can take some riskier steps.
01:13:54.659 --> 01:13:59.219
So yeah, no, and it feels like something's off with the with the world.
01:14:00.099 --> 01:14:08.979
Uh developmentally cautious doesn't feel like what we would want for our young people or ourselves when we're younger.
01:14:09.299 --> 01:14:09.699
Yeah.
01:14:10.019 --> 01:14:16.819
You mentioned Jonathan Hyde, and we didn't really touch on that earlier, but I think that's I'm so glad that book has made the waves that it has.
01:14:17.219 --> 01:14:17.859
The anxious generation.
01:14:18.099 --> 01:14:18.819
Anxious generation.
01:14:18.979 --> 01:14:25.619
Yeah, I don't know of a book that's sparked more conversation about young people in the last few decades and more positive change.
01:14:25.779 --> 01:14:25.939
Yeah.
01:14:26.099 --> 01:14:32.179
Schools who are restricting cell phones and families who are, you know, waiting longer before kids get cell phones, et cetera.
01:14:32.259 --> 01:14:34.659
A lot of really good uh thoughts out of that.
01:14:34.899 --> 01:14:42.179
But you know, he talks about how this generation or young people in general want risk, but cell phones keep them inside.
01:14:42.259 --> 01:14:46.579
You know, the Atlantic has said go outside is being replaced with go online.
01:14:47.299 --> 01:14:47.779
Wow.
01:14:48.019 --> 01:14:57.939
There's different race online, but it's not like I don't know if this is connected, and I don't know if this is something that your research touches on or that you even would have thoughts about, but there's not much you don't have thoughts about.
01:14:58.019 --> 01:14:58.819
So I'm guessing it might.
01:14:59.059 --> 01:14:59.539
Good or bad.
01:14:59.779 --> 01:15:06.339
One of the one of the trends going on that, as I understand it, is basically unprecedented in human history is the decline in birth rates.
01:15:06.899 --> 01:15:07.219
Yeah.
01:15:07.539 --> 01:15:13.299
And uh in 1950, globally, uh women averaged about five children per woman.
01:15:13.460 --> 01:15:13.619
Yeah.
01:15:13.779 --> 01:15:16.259
Now it's down to 2.2, 2.1 is the replacement.
01:15:16.419 --> 01:15:16.659
Yeah.
01:15:16.819 --> 01:15:24.019
A lot of conversation about what's going on with that seems to be not just in the West, maybe a little bit predominantly there.
01:15:24.179 --> 01:15:24.500
Yeah, sure.
01:15:24.819 --> 01:15:28.179
People on the right are, you know, trad wives, you ought to have kids, that's your duty.
01:15:28.259 --> 01:15:28.419
Yeah.
01:15:28.579 --> 01:15:32.500
People on the left, it's because it's a dangerous world, people are afraid to bring kids in.
01:15:32.739 --> 01:15:36.339
However, it's it's arguably a less dangerous world than it's ever been before.
01:15:36.659 --> 01:15:37.699
Ah, right, right.
01:15:38.099 --> 01:15:40.500
Any thoughts about what's going on there?
01:15:40.579 --> 01:15:47.779
And in in what ways does that connect, if at all, to what scripture teaches, kind of a faith-infused view of life?
01:15:48.099 --> 01:15:49.139
Well, you said their thoughts.
01:15:49.379 --> 01:15:50.819
Well, you said I have thoughts about everything.
01:15:50.979 --> 01:15:53.859
I actually don't have many thoughts on birth rate, John.
01:15:54.259 --> 01:15:57.859
So um, but can I say a little bit more about Jonathan Height?
01:15:58.099 --> 01:15:59.299
Yeah, no, okay, awesome.
01:15:59.779 --> 01:16:04.339
Uh because this this became particularly relevant for um our family.
01:16:04.739 --> 01:16:06.979
Uh, my husband's an Eagle Scout.
01:16:07.299 --> 01:16:07.619
Wow.
01:16:07.859 --> 01:16:08.099
Yeah.
01:16:08.259 --> 01:16:10.099
So I've become a backpacker.
01:16:10.179 --> 01:16:10.419
Yeah.
01:16:10.579 --> 01:16:12.019
Because my husband's an Eagle Scout.
01:16:12.179 --> 01:16:17.619
So, you know, I joke that Dave's introduced me to backpacking and I've introduced him to a good hotel concierge.
01:16:17.779 --> 01:16:20.819
So, you know, we've rubbed off on each other in a good way, I think.
01:16:21.059 --> 01:16:28.099
Um, so a couple summers ago, we took our kids uh because of Dave, largely, they love camping and backpacking.
01:16:28.179 --> 01:16:30.019
And so we took them on a backpacking trip.
01:16:30.179 --> 01:16:31.460
Each of them got to bring a friend.
01:16:31.619 --> 01:16:32.419
It was awesome.
01:16:32.500 --> 01:16:35.699
And the Sierra uh Nevada Mountains, just beautiful.
01:16:35.859 --> 01:16:39.299
That same summer, we were also able to take them to Cozumel.
01:16:39.779 --> 01:16:43.859
Um, and we did snorkeling, we did scuba diving because to where?
01:16:43.939 --> 01:16:44.739
Uh Cozumel.
01:16:45.139 --> 01:16:46.179
Cozumel is where?
01:16:46.339 --> 01:16:46.899
Oh, Mexico.
01:16:46.979 --> 01:16:48.339
Sorry, sorry, Coast of Mexico.
01:16:48.500 --> 01:16:48.659
Okay.
01:16:48.819 --> 01:16:59.299
So this amazing, you know, we had a great uh VRBO, Airbnb, view of the water, amazing food, snorkeling, scuba diving, because we're certified scuba, et cetera.
01:16:59.460 --> 01:17:13.460
And I asked them, because of this idea of Jonathan Height and kids getting involved in more wrists, I asked them, okay, guys, if you had to choose one of these vacations, backpacking or cosimo, which one would you choose?
01:17:13.539 --> 01:17:15.939
And I went to each three of my kids individually.
01:17:16.099 --> 01:17:18.419
All of them said, I don't know.
01:17:18.819 --> 01:17:22.659
Now, let me just say, backpacking is a heck of a lot cheaper than Cosimo.
01:17:23.539 --> 01:17:25.859
So we're doing more backpacking than kayaking.
01:17:26.019 --> 01:17:26.259
Yeah.
01:17:26.500 --> 01:17:32.179
But I think for my suburban middle class kids, backpacking feels risky.
01:17:32.259 --> 01:17:32.419
Yeah.
01:17:32.579 --> 01:17:37.299
You know, you have to figure out where you're gonna sleep, and all you have is what you've carried.
01:17:37.460 --> 01:17:44.019
And I think that's what draws them to backpacking, is they've had a decently protected life, and this feels more risky.
01:17:44.339 --> 01:17:45.939
Something in the human spirit wants to risk.
01:17:46.179 --> 01:17:46.500
Totally.
01:17:46.659 --> 01:17:53.619
And so for us as adults, you know, it doesn't have to be backpacking, but what is it that stretches our kids out of their comfort zone?
01:17:53.779 --> 01:17:55.699
Is it is it a new art class?
01:17:55.859 --> 01:17:57.059
Is it a new relationship?
01:17:57.219 --> 01:17:59.699
You know, whatever it might be, is it a new hobby?
01:17:59.859 --> 01:18:01.299
Is it serving somewhere new?
01:18:01.379 --> 01:18:03.379
Is it interacting with people who are unhoused?
01:18:03.460 --> 01:18:10.899
You know, whatever it might be, can we offer young people the adult support, that adult accompaniment in the midst of the risk?
01:18:11.460 --> 01:18:20.099
Which just comes back to um caring and being with and actually observing, caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults, accompanying young people in life and faith.
01:18:20.419 --> 01:18:28.659
So, Kara, we have been talking a lot about uh the spiritual formation of other people, pastors, church leaders, young people or so.
01:18:28.819 --> 01:18:28.979
Yeah.
01:18:29.219 --> 01:18:30.579
Um, let's make it personal.
01:18:30.819 --> 01:18:39.219
Uh uh generally, when I get kind of to the end of these conversations, I'll just want to know from somebody um, how have you been being formed?
01:18:39.379 --> 01:18:40.579
What have you found helpful?
01:18:40.659 --> 01:18:46.899
What's going on in the heart and character and spirit of Carapow these days?
01:18:47.139 --> 01:18:47.779
Yeah.
01:18:48.099 --> 01:18:58.579
So normally I can answer that by showing you my cell phone because my wallpaper for my cell phone often expresses what I'm learning about these days.
01:18:58.659 --> 01:19:03.619
And so if we were to look at my phone, um, it would have three short sentences on it.
01:19:03.939 --> 01:19:08.419
Uh, three or four years ago, our family was in Italy.
01:19:08.659 --> 01:19:12.979
And night number two, I woke up at like four in the morning and couldn't sleep.
01:19:13.299 --> 01:19:17.059
And as a parent of young adults, I was worrying about my kids.
01:19:17.219 --> 01:19:21.059
There were some stressful situations at Fuller I was worrying about.
01:19:21.379 --> 01:19:29.379
And I've never heard God speak audibly, but I felt like the Holy Spirit gave me three sentences at four in the morning in Rome.
01:19:29.699 --> 01:19:36.179
Um this is beyond you, let me carry you and watch me work.
01:19:36.979 --> 01:19:40.500
This is beyond you, let me carry you and watch me work.
01:19:40.899 --> 01:19:45.619
And just this morning, as I was praying about a situation at Fuller, it's so interesting.
01:19:45.699 --> 01:19:49.539
I feel like one of those three sentences feels particularly poignant.
01:19:49.859 --> 01:19:53.859
So as I was praying about something, I felt like, oh, this is beyond me.
01:19:53.939 --> 01:19:56.979
And I can just rest that this is beyond me.
01:19:57.219 --> 01:20:01.539
Other times I feel like God's pointing me toward uh watch me work.
01:20:02.019 --> 01:20:08.019
You know, any one of those three sentences will be like the bold italic capital letter sentence for me.
01:20:08.179 --> 01:20:11.539
So yeah, that it's been my mantra really for the last three or four years.
01:20:11.619 --> 01:20:14.579
This is beyond you, let me carry you, watch me work.
01:20:14.899 --> 01:20:35.699
And it is amazing how um sometimes naming, I have different words for it, but I thought like a thought like this is beyond you, yeah, brings help and some kind of grace or energy or power or something that if I don't name it, it's beyond me, but it feels crippling.
01:20:35.859 --> 01:20:40.019
And then when I can just say those words, uh it's okay.
01:20:40.259 --> 01:20:41.379
Yeah, yeah.
01:20:41.539 --> 01:20:49.699
This is beyond me, but the implication is it's not beyond God, and that's what helps me hold the stress I navigate.
01:20:50.819 --> 01:20:51.699
I I love those.
01:20:51.859 --> 01:20:54.659
We will put those in the show notes and make them available.
01:20:54.979 --> 01:20:55.139
Yeah.
01:20:55.619 --> 01:20:56.419
Thank you.
01:20:57.539 --> 01:21:02.979
Well, uh, this has been a super rich conversation, and um, I am most grateful.
01:21:03.139 --> 01:21:05.699
Look forward to doing it again sometime if you're up for it.
01:21:06.019 --> 01:21:07.539
I would love that anytime.