Customer Experience Superheroes - Series 1 Episode 3 - Being the CXRockstar with James Dodkins

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Welcome to High Share CX Superhero in this podcast series.
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This is the third episode in the first series, and in this episode, I'm delighted to say we are going to be interviewing James Dodkins, the CX rock star himself.
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In previous episodes, we have experienced Citizen M, which is a brand we at clientship big fans of.
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We have feel they have a fabulous approach to customer experience.
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And we also met Simon Gilbert, who took us through employee engagement and how important that is in customer experience.
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And that's the purpose of this series to bring you different aspects of customer experience to inspire, to give you new ideas and new insights, and really help those who are either new to customer experience or been practicing for quite some time to look at topics in a different way and find new ways in and get more value from them.
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In this episode, we're going to be looking at stakeholder influencers, and James, the CX rock star, is a perfect example of a CX superhero in this capacity.
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So, James, thank you so much for joining us as part of our CX Superheroes podcast series.
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It is an absolute delight and a personal pleasure to be interviewing you here today.
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Oh, you're very welcome, James.
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Now, I've mentioned before at Clientship, we really do believe that everyone has the capability to be a customer experience superhero.
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And one of the key superpowers is influencing people.
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Influencing them so they can see the value of customer experience thinking.
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Now whether that's about changing their opinions on a topic or changing the actual behaviours of some of the employees.
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Is this a view that you know you recognize and understand?
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Yeah, I agree 100%.
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It doesn't matter whether you're on stage in front of people, it doesn't matter if you're talking to somebody one-on-one, it doesn't matter if you're trying to influence a boardroom, it doesn't matter if you're trying to influence a lunchroom.
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It's it's all about influence.
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Everything we do on a day-to-day basis, whether you're somebody like me that's trying to spread a message around the world, or whether you're you're somebody working in an organization to improve the experiences that your customers are having on a day-to-day basis, everything we do has got to be about influence, getting people on board, getting people to help you out, getting people along on that journey.
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So, yeah, I I definitely agree with that.
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Excellent.
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And and it is a real skill, and we've looked at sort of the the superpowers needed to be an influencer, and you know, some of us can get there, but it's it's not for everyone.
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Um now, I mean, you've been recognised.
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Congratulations.
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I noticed uh you've now been voted the number one customer experience influencer in the UK.
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I mean, how does that feel?
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Dude, if it finally I got a number one.
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I've never got a number one in my music career.
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I haven't it it feels great, man.
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It feels so because the thing is a lot of the stuff I do, I do for free.
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I give away a l so much content for free, so much video content.
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Um so to to have that sort of recognition, it it kind of it spurs you on a little bit.
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It's it's a nice little nod saying, you know, well done for doing that, like we appreciate that as a community.
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So it it feels great to be able to do that, and it's great fuel for me to get those sorts of accolades.
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It's not all about those things, but it it it does help to be honest with you.
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Um and but I was blown away to be number one, like being on the list would have been enough for me, man.
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But to be to be named as number one CX influence in the UK, man, that's whew.
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It's special.
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I mean it's special.
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It's a it's a busy workplace out there.
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I mean, there's many, you know, many influencers who can kind of hassle for that spot.
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Uh and and you know, there's some worthy contenders out there, I mean some really good pedigree, so it is no small feat to actually come top of the pile.
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What what do you think that you've brought to to help you kind of stand apart from the others?
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I don't know.
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I mean I can't really I can't really comment on any of the other people.
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Like the loads of people in that list arguably should have been number one.
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I you know, the there's lots of people out there that would probably look at that list and would you know order them differently.
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But what I can talk to is the way that I approach this sort of stuff, and it's a mentality shift I've had to have.
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I try not to sell stuff in the hope that people will buy stuff because I try not to sell stuff if that if that makes sense.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah, I I I focus a lot of my time.
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I as far as I'm concerned, my number one job is a content creator.
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My job is to create content in an interesting and innovative way to help spread the message of customer experience around the world.
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My job isn't to sell stuff now.
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As a byproduct, people like the stuff I do and then you know hire me to come and do talks or want to come along on my training classes.
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But it's been a massive shift in mindset to realise that people buying stuff from me isn't the goal for me, it's the reward.
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And it's it's kind of crazy because that's the way I've been talking to companies for years, understanding that the money isn't the goal in business, it's the reward.
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The goal should be delivering those ideal experiences to your customers.
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So it's kind of like just you know, eating your own dog food, taking your own lessons, looking at it from a different point of view.
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I think that's part of the reason that you are so um recognized and and people do follow you is because of exactly that.
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It's it's very easy in customer experience, I find, to be a pretender and to portray a sense of an outcome you're working towards, which actually, you know, we as viewers can see straight through that, but but you don't.
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You you do convey that actually the outcome you're trying to achieve is a better experience, and if you deliver that, all the good stuff comes with it.
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And I think the way you present yourself mirrors that.
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So and you know, it's it's it's easy to fall into the trap of actually just thinking that all you need to do is throw stuff out there and and and the rewards will come, but unless you deliver it in an authentic way, and and an interesting way, we'll come on to that because you've got a very interesting approach, then I I I I think that's what allows us as recipients of information to come back again and again, which as a content creator is essential for you.
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Yeah, definitely.
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Well, th thank you for that.
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I appreciate that.
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Okay, so um obviously, you know, this this position number one has not come about um based on on what you've done in the last couple of uh couple of weeks.
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So give us an appreciation of what 2019 was was like for you.
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It must have been a a busy and and a productive year.
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What have you been up to?
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Well, uh 2019 has it's been a crazy year for me.
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Um it's it's been my year of content.
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So like my number one focus was content, specifically video content.
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So at the start of the year, um I started doing the this week in CX videos, which was like the for the people that don't know the weekly news roundup of what has happened in the past week in customer experience, delivered in a humorous way.
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Um then that sort of ran its course and I moved on to more two-camera delivery of like thoughts and ideas around customer experience.
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And then towards the end of the year it got more to so the thing is that a lot of people get in touch with me and say, Hey, can I pick your brains?
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Can I have a call with you and do this?
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And whereas I'd love to be able to do all of that for free.
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I just I just can't, I can't give that much time and not get anything in return for it.
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But I didn't want to start charging people for that because it seems like a bit of a dickhead thing to do.
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So I realize the way I can use that to my advantage as well is just to start filming the coaching calls I have with people.
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So I'll give them coaching calls for free, I'll talk to you for half an hour, and I'll just film myself doing it, and then any you know, golden nuggets that come out of that becomes video content.
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So everything everything I do, I'm always thinking about content.
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How can I make content out of this?
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How can I share this message to a wider audience?
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Um so 2019 has been a real sort of shift in mindset towards focusing on content and how I can um you know capitalise on that and use it in its best way, and not just make making sure that one piece of content doesn't remain as one piece of content, so it can be turned into you know audio files that people can listen to, it gets turned into little quote pictures that people can read, it's turned into um blogs that people can read.
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So like one video can end up becoming fifty pieces of content across the internet, and it's just trying to be smarter about the way that I look at what I'm doing on a day-to-day basis and make it reach the the most people.
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Sure, sure.
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And and when you say the most people, I mean you've you've been to some far out places over the course of the the last year.
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I mean, uh your your your passport must look like uh I don't know, it m it must be peppered with stamp marks all throughout it.
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Yes, there's so I've recently got a new passport because my old one expired.
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Right.
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Um and it's already filling up quite quickly.
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I might I think next time I might have to get you know the extended pages.
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Excellent.
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So um and when you're when you're out there uh talking to an audience, obviously, you know, in that audience there will be the uninitiated, there will be the those just starting on the journey, and they'll also be at the other end of the scale, those sitting on a on a decent budget with an organization that's already there, you're kind of getting distinctivity because of its customer experience.
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Um how do you ensure that you know you you remain inspiring and there's learning for all?
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Well, it's it's a good question to be fair, because it you can't really please everybody.
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Right.
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You can try to, but you you're not you're not really going to.
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And the way I kind of look at it with my talk, it's it's like 50% content, 50% entertainment.
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Because scientific, and I don't know the the actual like psychological facts behind it, but it it's case of if you enjoy yourself while you're learning content, you're more likely to you know um retain it and then of course act on it.
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So my talk has been specifically designed to make people have fun whilst learning the stuff I'm talking about.
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And again, I've kind of done it in a weird way.
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I've got one talk, it's a signature talk, it's the talk I do, it's called Rules for Rockstars.
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It's the world's first and only musical customer experience keynote.
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And the reason I've done that is quite we we can get into the details of that maybe a little bit later if you want.
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But for me, that there'll be two types of sort of two outcomes from hearing the talk.
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So you'll either learn brand new stuff that you didn't know before about customer experience, or you'll hear stuff you already did know, but it will be explained in a different way, which will then allow you to explain it in a different way, if that makes sense.
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It does, and and I mean that second part, I I remember hearing a uh a story about um service recovery, which was to do with bumping into someone in a bar and spilling their pine, and it's certainly not an analogy I would ever have got to myself, and actually, probably as many a professional saying on stage, it would be a bit odd, it would stand out like uh you know a a a sore thumb in their in their their piece, but from when you present it, it feels like just part of the narrative.
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So I I I get exactly what you mean, totally.
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Cool.
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Well, yeah, I mean that that specific story came from I was just talking to somebody about it, um, and we were I was trying to talk about the proactive experience recovery, fixing the experience in the experience, not waiting for the complaint.
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And the story just caught sort of came to me as I was talking to someone about it.
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I was like, oh, it's kind of like you know, if you bump into someone in a bar, you can do this, and from that it really hit home with them, it really resonated with them.
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They then went on to tell other people about it, and so because it was such a powerful story, well, such a powerful analogy, it made its way into the talk.
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And that's the thing as well, is that we can be told things millions of times, but it never sinks in.
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But you can be told something that that one millionth time in that one particular way, and all of a sudden it will hit home to you.
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So that's for the the more experienced customer experience people that see me talk, that's kind of what I'm trying to do.
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Things that they probably will have been been told millions of times.
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Just telling it them in a different way, which will either maybe it won't make them think differently about customer experience, but it'll make them think differently about how they communicate customer experience to people.
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Have you got famous enough that you've ever had any of your stories played back to you yet?
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Oh what you mean?
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Somebody goes, Oh, right.
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Oh, I've got a really good story, yeah, about a guy bumping into someone in a pub the other day.
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You must hear it, James.
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Um I've seen I've seen things online where people do talk about like the analogies.
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It wasn't that one, it was what one was it?
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I can't remember which one it was, and it was only the other day I saw it.
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Somebody said, Oh yeah, I heard someone once say this, and I was like, Oh, I wonder I wonder who that could have been.
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Then it clicked, they were like, Oh, shit, that was you, wasn't it?
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So Yeah, I think that's the the ultimate form of flattery, or maybe it's just the start of some sort of trademarking litigation uh trailer.
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I'll take it as flattery, I'm not gonna go in there.
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So I mean I've I've I've seen obviously uh I follow you online, and when you're you're away um and you're at an event, you know, you do a nice piece around the build-up, kind of the backstage, you bring the viewer into the event with you.
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Um and you bump into some really interesting people.
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So, you know, I I know you probably you know wouldn't would say all of them, but are there any that you kind of can refer back to and say um these speakers I just think are great, you know, they're good when I when I see them and when they present I I learn from them as well.
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Yeah, I mean the the one the one that um I always when I look at the the lineup of speakers, the one I always get excited about speaking with is Shep Icon.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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Um he's just a cool dude and we've become friends over the years.
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And he plays guitar as well, better than me actually.
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Which actually isn't that difficult.
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I'm only slightly above average at guitarist for confidence that we're full of people.
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But he's a great guitar player and he's a great guy, and he he's another person that he's willing to give advice um just just because he's a nice guy.
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Um he's given me so much advice on the to the my talk and helped me um improve it to no end.
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So I I always love meeting up with Shep, grabbing a beer with him, you know, and seeing him talk as well.
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And uh he he does a similar thing, like he he has signature talks that have a a very similar message, but you never get bored, you never get bored of hearing it time and time again.
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And the way I'm kind of looking at it with the talks is rather than writing a brand new talk every time, it's like you wouldn't you wouldn't go to a Metallica concert to hear them write a new song thing.
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I mean it might be cool, but you go to a Metallica concert because you want to hear the classics, you want to hear the songs that you know that you like.
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And I was I was sort of battling with this when I was first doing the talk because people were coming to me saying, Oh, can you come and do this event as well?
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I'm like, Yeah, but you're gonna have all the same people there.
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They're like, Yeah, but we don't care.
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They like people have specifically said they want to see that talk again, or people will you know get in touch and say, I loved your talk, will you come and do it for our you know, our customers at our event, or will you come and do it internally for us?
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And I'm like, Yeah, well, what do you want me to talk about?
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They're like, No, no, no, I want you to do that talk, do do that one.
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And um, yeah, so it's one, it's good because I'm I'm a pretty lazy guy, so I don't have to write a new talk every time.
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Wicked.
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But it's also good for them because it means I get particularly good at that talk because I do it over and over again.
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So I'm really, really good at doing that one talk.
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Novelty's gonna run out at some point.
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I might have to read actually for for 2020 I've changed the first whole like the whole first section of it is different now.
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Um it's it's not gonna be a case of oh well you can have this andor that.
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It is it is what it is.
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And uh you might think that sounds a little bit counterintuitive in the customer experience world.
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Like, hang on a second, you you're not giving your customers choice.
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Realistically, if you truly knew what your customers needed, you wouldn't need to give them choice.
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So Yeah.
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It's a bit of a counterintuitive thing, but I honestly believe that sometimes too much choice can be a bad thing.
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Well, I I I agree with you there, James.
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I mean, when it comes to sort of those CX superpowers, one of the things that we we've identified is is to really understand what matters most, and and when you get that, that could be an enduring truth that lasts forever.
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It it doesn't okay, technology and the way you way you present it may need to be moderated slightly, but that content is still the same content.
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And if you know customers are saying, well, it's actually about how you resolve the issue when it goes wrong, or they're saying it's about having a a the same point of contact throughout, or if it's about the fact that actually um it's the after sound service that that matters most.
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You've got to stick with those.
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You can't just decide because you're all bored or you think the audience is bored, we'll move it on to something else like efficiency or online experience.
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So I'm completely with you on that.
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That's my point that you you live customer experience through what you do, and you can only do that if you completely understand it.
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Now, I mean you you did mention in I was quite interested about different topics.
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I mean, do you find when you're you're speaking there is a a range of topics out there that are you know, there's kind of a standard set of topics, and and with that, are there any that you kind of look at and think, oh, you know, that still hasn't been landed.
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We we haven't got that point across yet.
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I don't I don't know, man.
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It's um there's there's topics that I keep hearing time and time again that annoy me.
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Right that I think people should probably talking about NPS all the time.
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Sure.
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If you've ever followed any of my content, you'll know how I feel about NPS.
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Um and I get quite bored of seeing the you know the AI chatbot people present.
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Yep.
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Uh so and the first time I ever saw it, I was like, wow, that's cool, and then uh every other time afterwards I was like, oh god.
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It's just what they what they tend to do is they show a demo of their chatbot doing a neat thing, or their data mining thing doing a neat thing, or their AI doing a neat thing.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:13.119
But it's always fixing the problem that should never have happened in the first place.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.640
George created the mess that you're gonna go in and fix.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:17.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:25.440
Like, hey, look at this shitty experience that we made better without no, you didn't make it better, you just fixed it afterwards.
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:30.160
If you were making it better, you would re-engineer that experience and not be so shitty in the first place.
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:31.839
So that annoys me.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:43.200
But um the the good topics that are coming up time and time again that I like to hear about, um at the moment it's about personalization, and and of course technology can help with that as well, which is great.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:51.920
But helping companies understand that their customers are all different, every experience that will ever be experienced will be different.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:57.599
Yeah, and rather than fighting against that, embracing that and saying, Well, how can we use that to our advantage?
00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.920
How do we personalise this experience for our customer?
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:05.680
How do we start to know more and more about our customers and their behaviours and their values and the way that they do business with us?
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:11.759
And then how can we, you know, personalise the experiences so they feel that that experience is unique for them every time?
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:13.440
I'm loving hearing that stuff at the moment.
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:15.119
Yeah, no, that's that's that's great.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:30.960
And and um I I think it's uh it's a topic that we get obsessed about as um as practitioners and kind of got to realise that as a as a recipient, well, I'm only me, I'm only the experience you give me is the one that I get because I don't get to experience everyone else's.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:40.960
So I think the delivery of personalisation, getting it right, is is so important because otherwise you get it you get it slightly wrong and it just looks foolish.
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:43.599
Yes, and that that's the thing, isn't it?
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:57.039
It's um it's a hot it's risky at the end of the day because it will make you memorable either way, whether you mess it up or you get it right, it will make you memorable.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:20:58.799
It's kind kind of the thing with the talk.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:04.640
So I play guitar in my talk, I come out at the beginning playing guitar, I play guitar at the end for the like big finale.
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.839
It is very memorable, but it it's a double-edged sword.
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:16.079
If I mess that up, I will look like an absolute I will I'm gonna think of an a a fool on stage.
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.519
But if I get it right, I look wicked.
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:24.400
But that's that's the risk, that's the high-stakes game that you've got to play in customer experience nowadays.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:32.160
There are some companies where being consistently average, it's perfectly fine.
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:32.559
Yeah.
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:34.799
That is a good strategy for them.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:43.200
There are plenty of companies out there that I wish, I hope, and I pray would just become consistently average, but that's not perfect for everybody.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.920
There are some companies out there that need that well factor.
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:47.759
And that's that's another thing that annoys me as well.
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:52.480
People always say you you must well your customers, you must constantly exceed expectations.
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:59.039
Sometimes just meeting expectations is a perfectly good platform, it's a perfectly good strategy just to be consistently.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.400
Okay, is sometimes good enough.
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:04.160
So um there you go.
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.359
I don't think I answered your question, but No, you you did.
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:24.720
And I think it's that point around wow is one that we find as as practitioners the most challenging because to your point, we we worked with a client a few years ago who actually um said we want to we want to have the service design capability and and and and prowess of push.
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:32.960
Well wow, that's you know, it's it's a this is a you know it's it's not a it's not an automotive company, it's not a luxury brand, it's a it's an everyday, everyday sort of organization.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:40.960
And um we we we showed them what that would look like and we kind of worked it out about five years worth of bonuses need to be sacrificed to get there.
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:49.759
So we we ended up kind of highlighting that in their sector the st the the bar was set very, very low, and actually the strategy became one step ahead.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.039
Just be one step ahead of your customers, one step ahead of your competitors.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:54.480
That was all that was needed.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.839
And there is this kind of you know, uh there's that Jerry McGuire quote, isn't there?
00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:58.720
You had me at hello.
00:22:59.039 --> 00:22:59.759
That was good enough.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:00.640
I was alright with that.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.880
You didn't need the the ice creams and the fanfare and everything else that came with it.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:13.279
Um I took it and I told you I liked it, but you're probably just eroding profit and you're probably just distracting me from what really matters with your organisation.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.359
So I think it's a very key point.
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.960
You you you mentioned the guitar there, so let's just talk a little bit about that.
00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:33.279
I mean, I I like the idea that you're kind of you're you're you're doing this content, which is it's not difficult in the way that you present it, but actually, customer experience is not enough, it isn't a no-brainer, it is quite complicated.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:41.519
It's about understanding how we can change behaviour and make customers value not the product, the price, or everything else, but the actual experience.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.759
And then you go and load in something like a live guitar at the same time.
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:47.839
I mean, let's it' where where does it come from?
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:55.920
When did you start playing guitar and where does your love of rock music, which is very clear from how you present, where does it all come from, James?
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:08.000
Well, w one of the things I think you mentioned that that actually hit home really well with me is customer experience is complicated.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.960
There there is lots of stuff um to to wade through.
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:18.880
Now it it doesn't mean it has to be difficult, but it is it is complicated.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:30.160
And one of the things that I think the the better influencers out there do is being able to distill those complex ideas down to quite simple either stories or ideas or analogies.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.240
Um that's something I try and do pretty well.
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:37.599
And the reason for that is I'm what's known in the scientific world as an idiot.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:40.960
So I'm just I'm just I'm just not a clever person.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.039
Like academically, I'm not very smart.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:47.440
So for me to understand a lot of this quite complex stuff, I had to dumb it down for myself.
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:55.039
I had to distill it down into little stories or little analogies, and then it's just that throughout the years I found that other people actually quite like that stuff too.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:58.799
It's not because they're idiots, it's just that it's sometimes easier to understand.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:00.400
Absolutely, yeah.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:02.960
Um the guitar thing.
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:15.359
So I used to play guitar in a heavy metal band, we toured the world, we released albums, I had a video on TV, it was in magazines, so I used to be an actual real life legitimate award-winning rock star, but now I'm not.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:30.400
And the the whole um doing the guitar thing in the talk is I used to never tell in the corporate world, I used to never tell anyone that was in a band, because I thought there was going to be preconceived notions of oh I mean that would have been correct, but I didn't want I didn't want people to have them.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:45.440
And it got to the point, especially in the customer experience world, you know, the the market was becoming so saturated that every week there was a new I'm a customer experience specialist, I'm a customer experience guru, I'm a customer experience whatever, king, god.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.240
I mean it was just like popping up all the time.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:53.200
And it was getting harder and harder to differentiate myself and stand out from the pack.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:26:07.759
And it the it was it was a it was a combination of things, but the one thing that really sort of made me look differently about the way that I was delivering the my content was a quote from Jerry Garcia from Grateful Dead.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:13.920
And it's don't try and be the best in the world at what you do, try and be the only person in the world that does what you do.
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:16.400
And it really hit home with me.
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:23.359
I was thinking, you know what, the only two things I've ever actually been good at in my entire life were being an actual rocks rock star and doing customer experience.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:27.920
So why not try and put those together and see see what I can do with that?
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:33.680
And the amount of parallels there are between putting on a good show and writing music and actually delivering good customer experience.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:36.000
I'm a little bit embarrassed they didn't see it sooner.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.519
They do fit really well.
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:50.240
I mean, I think you make the topic so much more accessible by by and and also you know glamorising it as well, uh, you know, to but by bringing those two two together.
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:51.839
So it it is a perfect fit.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:27:00.720
I'm not sure if you're a cheesemaker, we'd we'd be kind of going down the same sort of line of conversation, but rock and customer experience, it fits well.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:02.880
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you you're right.
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:09.279
Like if you like worked in an abattoir or something and you try to that's stretching it a bit, isn't it?
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.880
Customer experience slaughterer you work as well.
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.519
So I am lucky that it's a bit of a glamorous thing.
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.640
But dude, one one of the things I'm trying to do is make customer experience cool.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:19.920
I'm trying to make it cool.
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:23.519
I'm trying to make people look at it and go, you know what, I want to be in that world.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:32.160
Because realistically, if you take a look at it, step back and take a look at it, customer experience is a bloody cool um environment to be working in.
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:42.480
There are very few jobs or disciplines out there that give you the real ability to be able to affect millions of people's lives on a daily basis.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:44.079
Customer experience can do that.
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:54.720
And it's I I want people to see that when you work in customer experience, you are an artist, whether you know, like a musician or an actual artist or whatever involves creativity.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:07.039
And like so, for example, musicians don't make music to make good music, they make music to make people feel certain things, to create emotions in the listeners.
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.079
Um it's the same with customer experiences.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:19.519
You don't create customer experiences to create good customer experiences, you create customer experiences to make your customers feel a particular way, to drive those emotions.
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:21.200
So it's exactly the same.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:34.559
And I'd like more customer experience professionals to see themselves as artists, to see themselves as as rock stars, to understand that what they do is that's such a cool thing, and they're so privileged to be able to do that.
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:42.640
Because accountancy, yeah, that's pretty cool, but you don't get to see the direct results in your customers every day.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:53.119
You don't get you know, if you're just like stuck in an accountancy department in in your company, yeah, you can be doing numbers and stuff, as somebody might be like, oh, we saved 17%.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:55.039
Alright, cool.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:29:01.680
But you don't you can't ever actually see the the tangible benefits in an experience that a customer's having.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:04.000
So I I love it, man.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.880
I think it's probably the best, other than being an actual rock star, which was better.
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:14.079
This is the this is the second best um thing.
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:15.680
But yeah, I'm I'm trying to make it call.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:21.759
And the the thing with the guitar on stage was basically I just wanted I wanted to be memorable and I wanted to have impact.
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:29.440
I wanted people to sit there not knowing what the hell was going on, and there's some crazy dude comes out playing guitar, they sit there and they shut up and they take notice.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:33.680
That was the idea behind it, and luckily it works because they go, What?
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.359
What why is this dude doing that?
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:39.119
And then I explain why I did it.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:42.640
But um it's it's impact.
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:51.920
I've been privileged to be in the room, and you know, I I remember the sound, you know, which is a it's a different component to an event you normally go to.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:55.839
You you you you notice the sound, and you also notice your kind of your your industry as well.
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:06.319
You notice the the creativity comes into it versus everyone else we've got on stage, and some wore ties, some didn't wear ties, and some showed you operational models.
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:32.720
But that creativity is quite difficult to sort of get coming through, and I think that's what really helps is it shows customer experience is a is a creative art as well as a science, but there is it does need artists to design better experiences, and and they they shouldn't be thinking about how they can convey on the bottom line, they should be thinking about how they connect with customers in an emotional way, and then look at the benefits that that will produce commercially.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:38.240
So I think I think that's why it really works for me personally, and I'm sure for many others as well.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:40.079
Yeah, I mean it's not gonna be for everybody.
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.480
Some people are gonna think it's stupid and they're gonna hate what I do.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:43.440
That's fine, that's okay.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:50.400
It's not for everyone, but you know what it's there there is a science to it, and there is an art to it with customer experience, just like any creative field.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:57.519
Like a musician, like as a guitarist, there is scientific things behind it, like the the theory, the music theory, we'll call it.
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:09.279
Simply you have to understand how to plug in a guitar to make sound out of it, you need to know how to tune it, you need to know the science behind when you put your fingers in different positions, it creates different sounds.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:13.599
You need to know the technique of strumming the guitar and picking the strings.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:24.880
There's that technical side that you need to know or the creative side that doesn't matter, but it's the creative side that's gonna make a name for yourself, it's the creative side that's gonna get you remembered.
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:36.880
I know hundreds of guitarists that are technically brilliant guitarists, they can sit there and they can play all the scales super fast, and you'll go, Wow, that's pretty cool.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:44.319
But it'll never make you feel anything, it'll never it'll never move an emotion, it'll never create an emotion within you.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:50.799
Whereas the some of the best guitar players in the world aren't technically brilliant guitarists, they're people.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:56.000
I mean, look at Jimi Hendrix, for example, like he played his guitar backwards, yeah.
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:05.200
Yeah, but he created like his songs aren't technically difficult to play, but they make you feel something.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:05.759
Yeah.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:09.680
So it for me you need both.
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:10.000
Yeah.
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:18.319
There is a certain amount of the technical element you need, but there's a certain amount of creative in there that arguably you either have or you don't have.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.799
I I don't know like if there's a way to um train creativity.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:40.000
We we'd looking at these CX being creative, do you know is there a thing you can Well looking at these CX superpowers, I mean what we have found is that um an analysis, um uh uh presentations, um operational are quite commonplace.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:56.480
Um but actually I in the the ideator section, you know, coming up with the ideas, connecting different disparate thoughts together and arriving at something which is emotionally engaging and and creates memory, yeah, it's not it's not something everyone can do.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:15.119
Um and and some of us can do it in a way that you know to your point earlier, some sectors you don't need to be out there and doing things in just you know a very, very distinctive way, but in others, you know, guest experience in hotels, for instance, and luxury, you do need to do it, and it requires a a certain sort of brain.
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:30.960
I mean, there's a um a brand called Imaginarium, um, which is a toy shop it's a uh Iberian toy shop, uh, and what they've done when you go into their store is they've got two doors, uh, and one is only tall enough for children to go through.
00:33:31.119 --> 00:34:07.200
But the what the reason they've done that is because when you go through that door, you have to break the hand with your child, so the child enters on their own, so it becomes their world rather than being something you're going into with mum or with dad, it's their own world, and you just think that's so basic and yet so brilliant to let allow this individual now to experience something for themselves in a very safe way because they can connect up to a mum and dad straight away when they get in, and it's actually it got distinction on the high street because they've got two great big arches or a small arch and a big arch, and it looks like nothing else on the high street.
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:09.840
So, to your point, I think you can get so far, you know.
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:18.079
You could kind of go, what we need to do is to make sure this individual can go into their you know in there and own this, you know, the child can own this touring experience.
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:20.880
But actually, very few of us will go, here's an idea.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:23.039
Here's a creative idea that I think will do it.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:30.400
Most of us will probably say, Well, put some demos inside, get them to interact and play with them, or you know, put some Lego out in a board and get them to play with it.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:33.679
But to actually create that that entrance is is pretty special.
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:35.199
So I think you're absolutely right, James.
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.880
Completely concur with you on that.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:39.119
Yeah, that's that's that's a great example.
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:51.519
And the thing is, the the companies that are the most customer-centric companies in the world, the companies that get cited as delivering the best customer experiences time and time again, didn't get there by just doing what everyone else is doing but better.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:55.920
They didn't get there by being the best at doing the same as everyone else.
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:58.800
They got there by doing different thinking differently.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:05.519
And the the first step to doing customer experience differently is thinking about customer experience differently.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:08.239
And and that's one of the things that I'm trying to help people do.
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:13.519
The standard skills for customer experience you can go out there and get.
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:15.519
There's loads of training courses you can go and get.
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:19.679
You can probably get them online for free if you really trawled around enough, you can read enough books.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:25.199
But the creative side is I'm I'm trying to help people think differently about stuff and and approach things in different ways.
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:33.599
So I I love that story, I love that example because that's something that no textbook would have ever said, you know, go to customer experience, you should have two different doors.
00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:34.400
It wouldn't have happened.
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:46.559
The only way you get there is understanding who your customers are, understanding them at a deeper level, understanding their needs, understanding their successful outcomes, understanding their values, their behaviours, what influences them in life.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:53.599
It's understanding your customers at such a deep psychographic level that you can then create those experiences that will resonate with them.
00:35:53.920 --> 00:36:15.039
And it's that's that's a that's a lot of companies are missing the um missing the boat with that one because they're spending so much time on the demographic segmentation, understanding what gender people are, understanding you know what race people are, understanding how much people earn, understanding what um postcode people live in, that it strips the humanity away from it.
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:21.519
They're too bothered about what people are, and they're losing losing grip of who people are.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:29.360
As soon as you you start to understand who people are, you understand their needs, their successful outcomes, and you can start to design experiences that really move them.
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:37.280
And I think there's a point I'm sure I've seen you talk about it a number of times around um also kind of remembering that you are just a part of their journey.
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:48.239
So, you know, a customer doesn't think I'll get up and today my life will exist to deal with a utility company or to to even go out and you know buy a sofa or a big a big purchase.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:52.320
Actually, there's a lot more going on in their life, and and you're just a small piece of it.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:37:10.559
So you've got to be able to really understand your customer and understand where their journey truly starts, and it will end long after you were involved, and and then recognising and respecting what role you play in that rather than you know the privilege they have of being in association with you in your as a retailer or whatever it might be.
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:13.039
And I know that's something you've spoken about before.
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:34.000
Yeah, 100% man, it's it's I think we all need to understand that a customer experience isn't just the interactions between a customer and your company, a customer experience is the sum of the thoughts, the feelings, and the interactions a customer has about and with different products and services during the achievement of a goal or an outcome.
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:41.599
And it's looking at that entire journey towards the achievement of that goal or outcome and then saying, well, okay, what part do we play in that?
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:43.360
How can we improve that part?
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:48.239
Now with the understanding that their goal has got something probably that it's nothing to do with us.
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.400
How can we work with other people in that journey?
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:55.119
How can we create collaborative experiences to help them better achieve that goal or outcome?
00:37:55.280 --> 00:38:04.239
That's something that most companies are not doing right now, but it's because, as far as I'm concerned, they've got a flawed definition of what a customer experience is.
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:06.400
And that's that's the problem.
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:10.000
It's something I've been I I've been complaining about this for quite a while now.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:14.960
So anybody that's been following my stuff for any period of time will have heard me complain about this.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:22.000
They say, okay, well, uh, customer experience is the sum of the thoughts, feelings, and interactions a customer has with your company uh wrong.
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:23.119
No, no, it's not.
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:28.400
It's it's those things that they have along the journey towards achieving a goal or outcome.
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:45.199
If you only look at it through that lens of the interactions with your company, you're missing a massive opportunity because there's so much more going on outside of your company walls that you could be influencing, that you could be making better, that you could be capitalizing on, that you could be earning extra revenue from, that you could find ways to cut your costs internally.
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:50.159
Because it's not all just about fluffy feelings, it's all got to come back to the bottom line at the end of the day.
00:38:50.320 --> 00:39:00.480
Um, there's so much opportunity there that companies just they're not giving themselves the opportunity to capitalise on because they've got a flawed definition of what a customer experience is.
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:07.360
I'll come on to that a little bit later because I think it's a really good point about what I think is going to be part of the the trends of the next ten years.
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:08.880
So we'll I won't forget that point.
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:11.280
I'll come back to that because I'm completely on the same page as you.
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:15.840
But we we've spoken about you as kind of the presenter, but we shouldn't forget you're also an author.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.000
Um you have a couple of books out there.
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:27.119
Um, one that we're we're very familiar with because uh we spend a lot of time helping organisations improve employee engagement with employee experience programmes.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:33.440
Um you you wrote uh uh uh or published a book recently, 136 ideas for rockstar employee engagement.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:45.280
I mean it's a it's a great source of inspiration, again, a a way of HR and CX managers accessing and triggering thoughts in their own minds about I could do that, yeah, we could do that, we could put those three or four together.
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:46.400
How did this work?
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:52.400
Did you collect these ideas yourself or are they crafted based on your findings of where you've seen shortfalls?
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.559
How did this book come together?
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:58.880
Well, it was I mean, I wrote the book by accident, but wrote the book.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.960
All us budding authors don't want to hear stuff like that, James.
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:07.679
I don't think I'm an author, really.
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:11.039
So anybody that's read the book, it's mostly pictures.
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:12.880
There's about one sentence on each page.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.960
I actually got a one-star review the other day from somebody that was really angry with the book.
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:21.360
They were like, All it is all it is is 136 ideas.
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:23.119
That's exactly what he's positioned as.
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:29.599
So I might I've got to take the blame for that though, because maybe I I didn't set the expectations clearly enough.
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:33.440
I mean, forget the fact that the title of the book is 136.
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:34.559
Well, whatever.
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:36.320
But um literally that's all it is.
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:37.440
It's just it's just ideas.
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:43.280
It's not trying to convince you that employee engagement is good, it's not showing stats and figures about why it's a good idea.
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:44.800
It's for people that already know it's a good idea.
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:46.000
I'm just giving you some ideas.
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:48.719
And these ideas came from a multitude of different places.
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:54.159
It's ones I've experienced myself, it's ones I've thought of myself, um, it's ones that I've come across online over the years.
00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:55.679
Um, and it's literally all it did.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:59.039
I sat down there with an Excel spreadsheet and I went at it.
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:00.480
I went, yeah, that was a good one.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:01.360
Okay, I'll write that.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:03.760
Oh yeah, that was another good one that that okay, that did that.
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:04.880
And just put them all down.
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:08.800
Now, interesting fact, do you know why it's 136?
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:10.480
Do you know what the hidden message is?
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:11.360
No, do you know?
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:12.480
No, lost on me.
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:13.440
Sorry, explain.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.079
Well, remember before when I said I was lazy?
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:16.880
Yes.
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:23.679
I wanted to do 199, but that's so it's the new 199.
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:26.559
Yeah, 136 is the new one hundred and ninety-nine.
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:31.199
Well, what it was, originally I was like, oh, I could do ninety-nine, and then I got more than ninety-nine.
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:33.760
I was like, oh, I d I can't really cut them down.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:35.280
I'll do 199.
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:40.159
And I got to 136 and went, oh, I think I've run out of cover.
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:42.559
I like the honesty behind it.
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:46.000
I'll I'll look at it in a different line next time I pick it up.
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:46.800
Yeah, there you go.
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:48.800
I really probably shouldn't be so honest about that.
00:41:49.599 --> 00:42:00.000
I think as well as part of the charm, James, is that kind of you know, you you you know that there isn't well whilst you are on stage as the CX rock star, there's an awful lot of you in that.
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:11.760
And I think one of the things that I've found looking at commentators over the last few years, and you you mentioned it earlier, there were people beforehand who are saying, forget it, just measure net promoter score, get that right, and everything else will fall into place.
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:20.239
And they're the same commentators up there saying, Oh no, hang on, hang on, we never no, just look at the feedback, don't worry about the score, you know, and they'll be changing their tune again.
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:34.239
They're kind of you know are just listening to what the populace is saying, whereas actually you've you've got an an a view which is true to the objective of customer experience, which is actually recognising it from the customer's perspective.
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:38.239
So so then when you talk around it, you're always on safe ground, you know.
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:40.239
I I think that's what's part of your charm.
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:42.480
So so please don't lose that honesty, that's what I'd say.
00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:44.719
Certainly from my perspective, don't lose that honesty.
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:45.440
Okay, good.
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:46.000
Well, thank you.
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:46.880
I appreciate that.
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:50.159
I will try my hardest to not to lose that.
00:42:50.559 --> 00:43:01.119
So it you know, with with the book, the the you know, the the the speaking, I notice you're doing uh um a training tour starting time next year with very few places, so they'll go quickly.
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:06.960
And you've got your own show on Amazon Prime, um and you know, and so it's been a busy few years.
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:13.440
If you could look back ten years, is this where you anticipated you would be, or did you have other designs?
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:19.039
Well no, dude, ten years ago I was just finishing up with the band, so I'm gonna level with you.
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:23.920
I make a lot more money pretending to be a rock star now than I ever did actually be a rock star.
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:29.840
So Well you know what, maybe it's turned out for the best.
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.400
Um look, that that part of my life is something I'm probably never gonna get back.
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:41.760
I'm I'm still doing music at the moment, and if anybody wants to know about my current musical projects, please please feel free to drop me a line.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:56.800
But that stage of my life is something that has sort of been put to bed now, and it was arguably the the best time at some of the best times of my life touring around the world with with the guys, you know, playing the music that I loved to people that loved it.
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:00.719
Um this wasn't my Master plan.
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:08.159
Um this is it's almost just it it's it's trying to make the best of the limited skills I've been blessed with in life.
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:15.360
Um in order to do that, I've sort of had to cram together the fact that I can kind of play guitar a bit.
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:24.800
I've got some experience of playing in a band, I c I'm a little bit funny at times, and I know some stuff about customer experience.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:30.559
So I basically just gaffetate all that together and created a career out of it.
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:32.480
Brilliant, brilliant.
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:37.039
And uh and what what do you think then are gonna be the big focal points for the next 10 years?
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:54.400
I mean you tapped into one that we believe in, which is the experience economy, and that actually, you know, when you're thinking about making improvements, don't just think about it from the the silo mentality of your own customers, you've got to think about the value chain uh society, your employees, all the other areas you impact as well.
00:44:54.639 --> 00:45:01.039
But I mean, you believe that's gonna be something that grows, or are there other trends out there you think actually these are the big things for the next ten years?
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:06.880
No, I think it I think it will grow, I think it'll continue to grow until everybody has does that.
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:07.519
You know what I mean?
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:12.719
It's if if you think back in the day, not every company had a website.
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:20.800
And the the companies that ended up having a website and ended up you know servicing customers online ended up outperforming the ones that didn't.
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:25.360
The ones that didn't had two choices, they either died or they got on board.
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:29.840
I think that's gonna be the same with customer experience well, with good customer experience.
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:33.920
We are gonna get to the point where good customer experience is the norm.
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:35.760
But what's gonna come after that?
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:36.800
I don't really know.
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:43.679
Um I it's it's hard to predict, but I think we're a long way off of um good customer experience being the norm.
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:58.159
So I think in the next 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, maybe even the next hundred years, we're gonna be getting to a point where customer experience is evolving, the understanding of customers is gonna evolve, the way that we deliver experiences to our customers is gonna evolve.
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:03.280
Customer experience is never gonna go away, just because it's it's always been around.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:06.000
Customers have always had experiences.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:11.199
It's just only fairly recently in the grand scheme of things that we've given it a tag, we've given it a name.
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:16.480
That's what you'd annoy when people go, James, we really need to start doing customer experience.
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:21.840
No, you've always done customer experience, but the fact you've just done that probably gives away that it was crappy.
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:22.239
Yeah.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.840
So everybody's a book that inspired me.
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.639
It's called On Purpose by Sean Smith, which is exactly that point.
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:34.000
It's kind of you've always done it, it's just you need to make it more deliberate, more focused, more prioritized attention.
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:35.519
Yeah, definitely.
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:42.079
And so I think at some point we will get to the place where good customer experience is the norm.
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.079
Whereas nowadays that's not the case.
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:46.559
If we get good experience, it's it's the outlier.
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:49.119
We go, oh, that's that's oh that's different.
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:49.360
Yeah.
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:50.880
I should tell someone about that.
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:55.039
Um constantly, constantly raising raising raising the bar.
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:59.679
Um now you you said you know you're very happy to kind of you know share thoughts and everything.
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:13.760
You must appreciate that there are more people getting into customer experience and and it an influencer, you know, an influencer on social media, regardless of whether it's CX or not, is a recognised profession now, and we've got you know professional vloggers and and whatnot out there.
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:22.000
Um as more individuals are catching the CX bug, what advice would you give to kind of the next wave of customer experience influencers?
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:24.880
Oh, the next wave of influencers.
00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:27.920
Um depends what your goals are.
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:28.480
Yep.
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:38.079
Uh the the only advice I can probably give to to people that want to be because I didn't set out to be an influencer, I didn't really want it want to be an influencer.
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:49.199
I just found that that was the best way to to get my message out there, and it's I don't really think we know what an influencer I suppose it's just somebody who influences and to that degree everybody's an influencer.
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:56.559
But anyway, the people out there who would like to become CX influencers, I think be authentic, just be yourself.
00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:06.800
Um I spent so many years in the corporate world hiding who I was, trying to, you know, behave the way that I thought you had to behave in in the corporate world.
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:10.159
It made me miserable and um I didn't enjoy myself.
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:12.719
I'm having a much better time now just being myself.
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:21.440
Uh it's good because some people don't like me, that's okay, because it means I don't have to work with them, which is a little bit counterintuitive.
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:32.320
But I think if you if you be authentic, if you be yourself, you're gonna attract people to you you and your message that resonate with you as a person, and it's just gonna be a little bit easier down the line.
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:40.159
I'd say try and focus on sharing content with no expectations in return.
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:49.679
I I I try and have uh zero expectations with what I do, so much so that I'll share this with you now.
00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:58.320
And it part of me is embarrassed about this, but the other part of me that tries to you know take hold of what I've just said isn't.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:04.239
If you go and look at my YouTube channel, there's like 400 videos on there.
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:07.119
Most of them have got like two views.
00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:11.519
Which is pretty poor.
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:17.519
Like objectively, looking at those statistics, that's kind of crappy performance.
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:26.639
But what I've realized is the more I put out there, even if it only helps one person, that's that's good at the end of the day.
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:32.400
The um my stuff gets a lot more views on LinkedIn and on Instagram, and that that's that's great at the moment.
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:34.159
I've even got an account on TikTok.
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:42.239
As I got to the point that I was posting more and more unique daily content on LinkedIn, and it got to the point when I was doing that, my likes were going down and down and down.
00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:46.719
So I'd get to the point where, you know, I'd post a video and within a couple of hours I'd have a hundred likes.
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:47.679
That'd be wicked.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:54.320
Gets to the point now where I'll post a video, but because I'm posting every day, people aren't liking it as much.
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:58.880
Um, and maybe I'll get 30 likes in a day.
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:09.360
So my like count has gone down quite a lot, but I've had to realise that it's it's it's basically the NPS of social media, it's a vanity metric.
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:09.840
Yeah.
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:18.800
Just because lots of people are liking your stuff, it's not necessarily an indicator that you've reached a lot of people.
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:29.519
What I'm finding is more and more people are coming up to me that I've never heard of, that I've never spoken to in my entire life, that's never liked one of my things, never even connected with me on LinkedIn, who say, Oh, I watch your videos all the time.
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:31.360
I love your content, thank you so much for doing that.
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:35.599
And I'm like, I don't even know you are why the could you throw me a like every now and again?
00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:45.679
But it's it's realizing that there is a lot of people out there that absorb content without interacting with it, and I've realized I'm the exact same person.
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.400
So my favourite band is Metallica, it's my favourite band.
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:51.119
I don't even like them on Facebook, I don't follow them on Instagram.
00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:53.760
If I saw a post by them, I wouldn't like it.
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:55.440
It's just not the sort of person I am.
00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:58.320
Yet when they come round on tour, I'll go and see them.
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:01.760
So they still make money out of it, even though I don't interact with their stuff.
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:05.039
So it's understanding, just put as much stuff out there as you can.
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:10.079
Don't be embarrassed if it only gets two likes, don't care if it only gets two views.
00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:17.599
One day that stuff is gonna help people, or even if it's only the two people that have watched it, as long as it's helping people, that's what you're there for.
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:23.760
And you need to kind of get over this thing of oh, you know what, if it doesn't get a million likes, I'm gonna delete it.
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:25.199
I get it.
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:26.880
Yeah, um, I I do get it.
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:28.639
Something I've had to struggle with.
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:38.000
It used to be I'd save up my my post and I'd only post one time a week, and then I'd you know, flog that content for the week and try and get the most out of it as I can.
00:51:38.239 --> 00:51:43.360
But it was limiting the amount of people I could help, it was limiting the amount like my message was getting spread out.
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:55.280
So for CX influencers that are looking to try and make a name for themselves and and trying to help as many people as they can, try and just I know it's hard, but just try and ignore that stuff.
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:58.639
Ignore the likes, ignore the view, okay.
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:02.480
People are seeing it, and um yeah.
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:12.960
So I think that's probably my that's such helpful advice, I think, because otherwise it becomes slightly um ever decreasing, doesn't it?
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:19.519
Because you end up just producing content that you think will be popular and then you get further away from talking about the stuff you want to talk about.
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:34.159
And I and I know myself having looked at some of your content, I've looked at some of the topics because I'm actually thinking about that at the time, and I found something, and you're talking about it, and it's great, but I might normally not have come up worried about looking at that because it wasn't relevant to me at the time.
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:55.679
So I think it's so important to actually stick to the content that you believe rather than to be driven by the scores that you're going to get, which is very true because it's one of the big challenges we have with things like Net Promoter Score and CSAT is you end up saying, What do we need to do to hit that target, regardless of whether it correlates with what makes this business successful or our customers happy?
00:52:55.840 --> 00:53:10.639
And and I think what you're saying there is stick to your content, keep going with it, talk about the things that really matter to you and you feel passionate about, and actually an audience doesn't always have to kind of send you a round of applause or send you a thank you card, they're there listening.
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:12.639
Yeah, I totally totally agree, man.
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:18.159
It was kind of like so back with the this week in CX stuff, the the show that's on Amazon now if people want to watch it.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:19.280
There's still episodes on YouTube.
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:25.920
And you just with this, you just go on and you go on the Amazon Prime app and just type in CX Rockstar and I'll find that.
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:31.440
If you type in the I think literally if you just type in customer experience, it's the the top thing that comes up.
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:31.760
Okay.
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:33.599
Uh so you can watch that.
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:42.719
Now on YouTube, that like some of those videos have got like 11,000 views, which in the grand scheme of things is nothing, but in the customer experience world, you don't really get that many people watching that much stuff.
00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:46.320
So there's videos on there with some really, really good views.
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:48.559
However, it's not going to help anyone.
00:53:49.039 --> 00:53:58.880
But the the only the only thing it's gonna do, and it's a realization I had to come to, I stopped doing a very popular thing because it wasn't actually helping anyone.
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:06.800
People would watch the episode and yeah, okay, they'd learn about some customer experience stuff that had happened in the week, and yes, it was funny, and they'd laugh about it.
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:09.519
They might go, ha ha yeah, that was that was fun.
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:14.000
I think I went too far down the entertainment route on that one.
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:21.840
And it was a difficult decision to make because of course I loved getting hundreds of likes, I loved getting thousands of views, it made me feel very good.
00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:23.199
I've got an ego on me.
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:28.880
No person is gonna go around the world calling themselves the customer experience without having some sort of ego on that.
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:32.960
I'm just gonna do I'm not even gonna try and lie about it.
00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:36.000
Um I loved getting that admiration for it.
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:48.480
Um but it wasn't helping people, and selfishly, it wasn't really helping me because people weren't watching that and going, wow, they were watching it going, well, this guy can make some jokes about customer experience.
00:54:48.559 --> 00:55:06.000
That and no, yes, it helped with my profile, and it was a it was a good step, and if I if I was doing things again, I would do it again, because it did help boost my profile astronomically, but what purpose was it serving other than giving people a bit of a chuckle?
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:16.159
Yeah, that's usually um so it's really honest of you to kind of share that, but I think that's you can see how others would make the mistake of grabbing onto that and just running with it and kind of going, why isn't this working?
00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:17.039
Why isn't this working?
00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:29.360
So to be able to take a step back and look at that for what it is, that's that again it just reflects how you are so attuned with what customer experience is about because you're you're wearing that that superpower of influencer so well.
00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:53.840
And and I and I hope there are those out there who work in corporates who can see how they can take the essence and the spirit of what the way you talk and translate it into something they can they can use in a corporate environment because what you're saying is just so helpful for people, and I think as I say, if they can mould it to their day job, then they too can become you know kind of CX influences in their own organisation.
00:55:54.079 --> 00:56:02.639
Yeah, well, I mean the thing is when it comes to the the more corporate stuff like so that there's kind of two two sides to the coin of what I do.
00:56:02.800 --> 00:56:08.880
There's the stuff that is the content and the more entertainment stuff, but then there's the more serious stuff which the training covers.
00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:14.239
So you mentioned the training earlier, you mentioned my tour, the disrupt CX UK tour.
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:21.360
We are taking the Aquac Customer Experience Specialist Training and Certification Programme out on tour across the UK.
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:24.320
Nine dates in different cities around the UK.
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:27.920
Go to acxs.co.uk to check out the dates.
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.360
Thank you for letting me do that blog.
00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:36.559
It's that stuff that gets a little bit more serious, it gives you tools and techniques and frameworks and methodologies.
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:50.159
It's less about me and it's more about the actual doing of customer experience, the sitting down, understanding your customers, the mechanisms to do that, and then turning that stuff into actual customer experience improvements.
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:56.559
So that side of stuff that is the stuff that sits well in the corporate world on a daily basis, doing stuff.
00:56:56.719 --> 00:57:04.079
The other stuff I do is more about helping people think differently about customer experience and helping them talk to other people differently about customer experience.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:07.840
So it's it's a good point to bring up, and it allowed me to do a little plug, so thank you.
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:09.519
That's okay, that's all right.
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:12.800
So um look, you you've got a big decade ahead of you.
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:15.840
Uh be interesting to see in ten years' time looking back.
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:19.679
Maybe there'll be it won't be a CX rock style, be a CX rock rock band.
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:22.239
You know, maybe there'll be a little gang of you out there doing this.
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:23.119
Who knows?
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:27.280
Um, but you but we'll into a CX rock god.
00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:29.039
That'd be great.
00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:30.079
That'd be good.
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:34.880
Because really, see, I've been thinking, well, the people are gonna get bored of this at some point.
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:36.000
What is my next step?
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:39.440
But until then, I'm gonna rinse this for all it's worth.
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:47.599
Um we find it hugely we find it hugely entertaining, but you know, it will it wouldn't work if the content was poor and it's not.
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:59.599
So, you know, as long as the content stays, there's no reason to believe it won't because of how you think about customer experience, then actually it just adds that interesting and distinctive um wrapper around things.
00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:04.559
And and there are some out there who you know do have quite okay content but awful wrapping.
00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:08.559
So uh I think at the moment you you're you're you're streets ahead of the others.
00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:12.559
So uh please, from clientship's perspective, keep going as you are, James.
00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:13.440
Yes, sir.
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:17.440
So uh look, we wish you all the best in 2020.
00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:21.119
Um, I look forward to hopefully seeing you present at some point.
00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:25.280
Um, and I will be those one or two on your YouTube channel, I can assure you.
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:37.440
I'm looking in at your content and uh and and most importantly, it really inspired to hear you talk about how you help is the word you've used an awful lot throughout that, helping others to kind of get better at customer experience.
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:39.199
So, you know, we we salute you for that.
00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:40.480
Thank you very much indeed.
00:58:40.719 --> 00:58:48.480
Oh, well, thank you, and thank you so much for doing this series of podcasts as well, talking to people like me and other people around the world about how they approach customer experience.
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:53.360
And of course, people listening to this are gonna be getting help from me, from you, from other people as well.
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:55.119
So, thank you for doing this.
00:58:55.599 --> 00:58:56.559
Oh, thanks, James.
00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:58.159
Um pleasure's all ours, honestly.
00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:04.480
And I think you're gonna be very busy in 2020, so I'm really pleased we managed to get to speak to you at the beginning of the year.
00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:16.320
And we will be back with the fourth and final episode in our Customer Experience Superheroes podcast series, where we will be featuring customer journey mapping and talking about the real value it can bring to organisations.
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:25.280
So, until then, this is uh me, Christopher Brooks from Clientship, signing off, and thanking you very much for joining us for this podcast.