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Hey, welcome to Venture Northeast Currents, the podcast where we try to help pastors and ministry leaders navigate the unique opportunities and challenges of ministry across the Northeast.
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So I'm your host, Doug Gheese, and for years we've heard that America is becoming increasingly secular and that younger generations are walking away from the faith.
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But recently, something unexpected has been happening, and across the country, even here in the Northeast, if you could believe it, we're starting to see signs that many in Gen Z are asking deeper spiritual questions and taking a fresh look at Jesus.
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So is this just another cultural trend, or is God opening a unique window of opportunity for the church?
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And if that's true, the question isn't simply, is Gen Z interested?
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The more important question is will the church recognize this moment and be ready to respond?
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So today, joining me is Jason Lehman from Keenley.
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Jason has spent years helping churches, uh, venture churches, especially, understand the changing cultural landscape, equipping leaders to engage people with the hope of the gospel.
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Together, we're gonna just kind of discuss what is going on and how can we, as the church, respond.
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So, Jason, hey, brother, thank you for being with us.
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Always love being with you, Doug.
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So seriously, uh some it's this maybe we just have to do this more so you and I actually get more time together.
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That's great.
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I like so I like that, and actually, next time I'm gonna fly to where you are because I think the weather is a whole lot nicer where you are than it is for me right now.
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So uh yeah, it is, it's good.
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So do this in person.
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Um, so Jason, I want to hit you with this question because um this is really near and dear to my heart.
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I came to Jesus when I was 15 years old in 1975.
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It was at the tail end of what we call the Jesus movement.
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Um uh it it my my church back then didn't necessarily respond well to that era, um, to those people, those long-haired hippie freaks that were coming into the church.
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Um and and we are in something um a different phase, a different era right now.
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So, so many uh pastors have been hearing that Gen Z is more spiritually interested.
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So, what's actually happening from your perspective, your opinion, what do you think is going on right now?
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So it's a good question.
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It's um, you know, I talk about this a lot.
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I talk about culture, I talk about culture change and things like that.
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And um, you know, we you know, we see on our feeds, you know, universities around the country where you've got college students, you know, having these multi-day revivals.
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We um, you know, I mean, we there are things that we're seeing.
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Um, but it you you mentioned, you know, a few minutes ago, is this a trend or is something actually is something actually happening?
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Uh are these blips?
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And um, and so I'm I'm around this data and we're in conversations, I mean, daily, you know, with pastors from around the country and things like that.
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Um, it's it's also interesting because I have a college student.
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And so I'm in c I'm in conversations with college students all the time.
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And it it I do believe something is happening, and uh it's interesting because you mentioning the Jesus movement, um I think there's a corollary and uh but I don't know that it's I don't think it's quite the same.
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And um so I I think something is indeed happening, and when we look at the studies from Barna or uh we can look at uh Pew research and things like that, um Barna will tell you there is a change.
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Yeah and um Pew will say there's kind of a change.
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And um and so I think I think some of what's happening is Barna right now is measuring the intensity.
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Uh they're measuring um people of all generations, what is the intensity level of faith?
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And we are actually seeing an intensity level go up.
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So for the first time in a long time, uh we actually have recrossed the 60% um percentage of people identifying that you know they at some point have made a personal commitment to Jesus.
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Um I I think I think the stat as of the end of last year is 66%, but that that fluctuates and it also uh depends on who's looking at it that you know at that particular day.
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Yeah.
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Um that's up.
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Um that's up, that's up considerably.
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Um people going to church, especially in a younger generation, um, in the past, um, getting a younger generation, a Gen Z, a millennial, to go to church even once a month, um, in a lot of places it was difficult.
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The stats now say that those numbers are somewhere between 1.8 and 1.9 times a month.
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Um, not quite two, and obviously these are stats, so you got to average these out.
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But um that's a significant trend.
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So that tells us that something is indeed happening.
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Um the um Gen Z I think is actually looking for something right now that actually is very similar to what happened in the Jesus movement.
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And I think I think what they're looking for is significance.
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Um, they're looking for answers, um, but they're also looking for authenticity.
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Yeah.
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And um, I have some other thoughts on that, but I'd love to kind of get your take on what I just said.
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You know, and and and that's an interesting thing, is that's I what that's what I want to kind of dive a little bit deeper, is not just that it's happening, but why is it happening and what are some of the cultural phenomenon?
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Because, you know, I I think of a book back in 2014, James Emery White wrote the rise of the nuns, the the religiously unasciliated um in 2014, that's what was happening, but now suddenly, really kind of since COVID, um, we're starting to come out of that.
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Um, and and like you said, there's a there's this rise.
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So why?
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Why?
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What what do you think's driving the the return of the Gen Z uh group?
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So there's a whole factors, I'm sure, right?
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Can I just give like an opinion?
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Is that okay?
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That's what I want.
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Um that's what I want.
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Okay, because because some of this it's difficult to know because we don't have enough time, we don't have enough data to actually say this is it.
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Yeah.
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But we have a convergence of a whole lot of things happening in one moment.
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And so there's this thing, I don't know if anybody's heard of it, it's called AI that is everywhere.
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And uh it really is everywhere, and um, we have um a political uh division that is is beginning to happen everywhere.
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Um, we have a um uh what I would say is an eroding of a moral foundation in our country.
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And so we view morality not through some sort of um shared understanding, we view morality through an individualized lens.
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So we when someone says my truth, when someone says, you know, that's not right for me, or that those kind of things.
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While those things have always existed, there was still some standards that existed.
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And when we contrast the Jesus movement time, um, I think a lot of people were looking for some moment or some sense of transcendence.
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I want to find this higher meaning, I want to find, you know, those kind of things.
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But there was still some sort of moral foundation, moral authority, moral objectivity that existed.
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Today, people are still looking for some sort of transcendence, but morality means something totally different and it's completely relative.
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And so I can look at trying to find meaning, but now not filtering it through some sort of shared societal standard.
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It's entirely how I feel about it.
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And when we overlay that into um AI, um, I think there's a lot of people that are now starting to realize, well, I don't know if I can completely trust AI.
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Um, I don't um, you know, it doesn't push back on me.
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I can I can share.
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Uh, in fact, I think the stats are around 23% of young people are going to AI for support for emotional issues.
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I'm struggling.
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I've had a bad day.
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They're they're um I'm dealing with a situation.
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Um, they're going to AI asking for help, and AI is not arguing with them.
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AI is not saying, well, part of the reason that you're having a bad day is you've made some bad choices.
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Um AI is going to respond in a way that actually comforts and comforts in a way without a human, um, an emotional and especially a spiritual overlay that is actually helpful.
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And so I think that's bringing young people to a place of I have all these things, I'm being told all of these things, I need something that's real.
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And I think it's it's creating curiosity that is different than that than has existed before.
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Yeah, I I I wholeheartedly agree with some of your opinions on that.
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I think here's here's what breaks my heart.
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Um, years ago, a good friend of mine who grew up um in in our conservative Baptist circles, he was a pastor, and and he and he said this to me.
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He said, Um, way back in the 60s and 70s, we missed the opportunity because we didn't we didn't let those long-haired hippie freaks into our churches, you know, get a haircut, um, you know, take a bath.
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Um and there were these preconceived notions, misconceptions um that that they had about that generation that were getting spiritually interested.
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So what do you think today if we could go think about some of the misconceptions that are out there about Gen Z that would that would prevent us from engaging with them effectively?
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What would what would some of those misconceptions be about Gen Z?
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That's a that's a really good question.
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Um there is a um there's an acceptance level that I think we in the church, especially as pastors, we have um it's almost like a it's like a threshold that exists.
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And I think sometimes what happens is when we're observing Gen Z or we're observing anything, uh we're measuring um how much we're going to accept or tolerate or whatever, based on this kind of unspoken threshold that we have.
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And so for in the Jesus movement, somebody coming in with long hair, somebody coming in barefoot, someone coming in playing music that didn't fit, um, some of those were thresholds.
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And part of what we would do is we would say, well, get a haircut, and then you can come in.
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Make sure you put shoes on, you can come in.
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We're not gonna do that kind of music.
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And if and as long as you can accept that, you can come in.
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Um, you know, if you're doing drugs, just don't do them here.
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You know, I mean, there's uh there were there were these thresholds.
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Well, the thresholds are far more about identity today than they uh are simply about how we look or how we act.
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Um and so like I'll give you I'll give you an example.
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Um if if a if a Gen Z, if a if a if a younger person um is dealing in a very real way uh with um gender identity, um and they suddenly show up in a conservative church, um there's a very strong reality in many conservative churches that we're gonna say you're not welcome here until you actually um abide by our standard of what the Bible says about gender.
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Yeah.
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Um now in contrast, now I'm not saying every church does this, and there's a lot of churches that are are trying to navigate this and they're navigating it well.
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Um, there's some that are not.
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Um now in contrast, this same person could go to um a community, they could go to the the gay lesbian community and say, I'm trying to navigate this.
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I have questions, I don't know what to do.
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And in that setting, be amazingly welcomed.
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We're all trying to figure this out.
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Um, and uh you're loved, you're accepted.
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And it can be really easy in a church setting not to start with that in case you have to edit out the loud music that just went by in the car.
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Um, in the in the church, you know, it can be really easy for us um to create barriers in terms of what are we willing to accept uh prior to even having a conversation.
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And so sometimes for us, we're actually applying measurements and things like that on people while they're still trying to figure things out.
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And so someone coming in saying, I'm trying to figure out who I am, I'm trying to figure out how I identify and all of that, can be very easy for us to say, Well, you have a sin issue, you need to figure that out.
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And once you figure that out, then we can have a deeper conversation about how you fit here.
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Um, why would somebody who's in that place say, Boy, I can't wait to go to church.
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I can't wait to have somebody judge me.
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I can't wait to have somebody not understand me.
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Um, of course, they're gonna look for places that are gonna help them navigate those moments.
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And I think churches back in the Jesus movement that um that figured this out.
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They figured out, you know, people are navigating things that we don't quite understand, but we still want to be present in those conversations.
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And we're and we're not saying that those things are right.
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Um we're not saying that that things that people aren't dealing with aren't sinful and things like that.
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But part of I think what we're doing is being willing to have the door open enough to say, can you have the conversation here with us before you go somewhere else?
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Um, because at least here there's a there's a spiritual component of that.
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And I think I think the Lord modeled that for us all over the place.
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Right.
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You know, he he's meeting with people that everybody said were sinners, they were the wrong people to meet with, yeah.
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And he'd go meet with them anyway.
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Yeah.
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Um and so I I I think that is a component that we have to keep in mind.
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And um, I have another thought on that, but uh respond to what I just said, you know, before I I kind of move into the next thing.
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Well, you you talked about the door, and you know, so let's let's put this into practice here and say a spiritually curious Gen Z young adult walks through your doors this Sunday morning.
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What would be the things that would make them feel like they belong?
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Like they found something uh genuine and authentic rather than oh, this is just another boring church service, just another organization on the planet.
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Um what that's a that's a great question.
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What would make the difference?
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I think the I think one of the biggest differences that can be made in those moments is actually um a posture on our end, uh a posture change on our end.
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Um I think one thing that that I always come back to is you know, at the foot of the cross, everybody's the same.
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Yeah.
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Um, we are all actually all image bearers of of God, whether we have stewarded that well or not, whether we actually have a relationship with God or not.
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And I think sometimes it is very um easy for us to create a hierarchy of who is carrying the image of Jesus better.
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And I think sometimes at a very basic level, for us to realize at some point we're all searching, we're all questioning, we're all curious.
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Some of us have different color hair, some of us identify as different kinds of people.
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Um, some of us like one kind of music, some people like a different kind of music.
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And I think when we have that as a starting point where we're not looking at somebody from the lens of right and wrong first, we're looking at it from the standpoint of we all need we're all kneeling at the cross the same way.
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We actually can approach things first with a moment of kindness and uh and helping hand um first because I think that's what people need.
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And when that happens, it creates a welcoming moment that I think sometimes is very foreign for a new person that comes into church.
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Um it's not our job to force people into conformity, um, it's actually our job to love people, and I think um I think we miss that in churches sometimes.
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I think we've got to find ways to be loving first and then have the harder conversation second rather than doing it the other way.
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Um, and so someone comes in that doesn't fit the normal context of who shows up, that's a that's an amazing opportunity because they came to your church instead of going somewhere else.
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Yeah.
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Um, and when we change our posture and we change our our vantage point a little bit and realize what if God's actually bringing them in for you to build a relationship with them?
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I think it changes the way we welcome.
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And I act, and I actually think it changes the way people receive that.
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Um there are stats even today that still say over 50% of people uh will come to church, even if they don't believe in God, if a friend invites them.
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Um like think about that for a minute.
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Think about the fact that somebody who does not have a relationship with God, who does not go to church, would still consider going to church if someone invited them.
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Yeah.
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And a lot of times the people who get invited to church still don't feel feel welcome even when they do that.
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And so um, I think when we have that desire to let's love first, let's realize that people may be coming to church because God's bringing them there, yeah.
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Um, we have an opportunity.
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And I think we just have to be we have to be careful, you know, with that.
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So I know um if if I go ahead.
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Yeah.
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Well, I I actually have a thought on um uh an observation I make on the younger generation related to this, but say what you were gonna say first.
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Yeah, I you know I I I I spent a lot of time over the summer traveling and meeting with pastors throughout the Northeast.
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I think I put uh over 3,000 miles on the car this summer, uh, traveling in Maine, New York.
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And one of the things I kept hearing from a lot of pastors was their communities have become increasingly secular, and I I could sense this pessimism about reaching the next generation.
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Um they they they just weren't that optimistic about about the challenges and about what was confronting them in their communities.
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And boy, do I get that because when I came to Auburn, you know, I had 20 people in the church at the time, and it it it seemed like um I was just running through thick mud for so many years, um, and it and it was.
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challenging if you could if you could speak a word to the pastors right now you know about not giving up on that on this next generation but and and you know no matter how how dire and dark it seems right now what would you say to pastors I I think what I would say first is um stop comparing yourself to other churches um comparison is one of the most dangerous things that we see in church leadership yeah and when it happens when we start comparing ourselves to other churches it become it becomes so easy for us to say we're not doing it right God's not blessing our church there's something wrong with our leadership there or whatever it is if you're a church of 20 people and you're stewarding what God's asked you to do celebrate that yeah um if you're a church of 2000 people and you're stewarding what God has is is giving you to do celebrate that um I think there I think because we go to conferences we watch things online it's really easy for us to equate success with attendance and I would argue that that the health of your church the significance of your impact actually has nothing to do with the number of people who show up at your church versus somebody else's church and I think that's just that first I think that's really important.
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I think the second thing to remember in this is especially in a local community we do not have the ability to um accurately um measure what God is doing.
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All we get to see is the effects of things you know and you know I think about you know Elijah after you know he runs and he's you know you know woe is me you know and and then God shows up you know and I I know I've been there and you know is he in the big wind is he and and he's and he's in this still small quiet yeah you know I think that that tells us that we we don't have the ability to measure sometimes the way we think we do.
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And faithfulness I think is one of one of um the most beautiful things when a pastor is willing to be faithful even though it kind of is isn't what it should be and things like that.
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I do believe that faithfulness and being true to what God's called you to do will always produce fruit.
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Yeah it may not produce fruit in six months it may it may it may take years um but I I do believe that that is real I believe that that is um it's something that is happening um I'm watching this happen in a small church right now that is um in a community that is absolutely anti-God.
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And I'm watching a pastor just be faithful uh to what God's asked him to do.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:17.440
And I would say churches on the outside who are farther away if they were evaluating this is what they would say this church doesn't know what they're doing.
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:26.400
They are small but I'm watching God change the lives of people in absolutely amazing ways.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:39.039
And I would look at that and say that is a tremendous success and a and a tremendous example of the faithfulness of of of the Lord but also the faithfulness of one that God has called to do his work.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:47.680
And so don't let the comparisons and don't let the measurements of church growth people get too much into your head.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:50.559
Stay true to what God has called you to do.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:55.680
And if you hit a point where you just don't know how to navigate that call me.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:06.319
Call Doug call another pastor and navigate that uh with somebody we do not have good objectivity when we do this by ourselves.
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:17.920
And so if I can just if I can be an encouragement um in that um and seriously call me call Doug call call call somebody don't do this by yourself.
00:26:18.240 --> 00:28:55.119
That was gonna be my next question what are some of the stories out there um you know stories churches obviously you shared about that one pastor um you know uh there's there's others right I I could share one I'll I'll share one really quick story um a young 20 something this was just weeks ago um she was at the end um there's a really dark story in her past from when she was a child um it wound up to where just as a matter of just a few weeks back she was ready to end it all she was ready to write a note on her phone to her family and um something came across her feed saying do you want some good news she was already to write this letter to her family a goodbye letter and she just thought to herself why not I'll click on it and it was a pastor introducing the gospel introducing her to Jesus and she just kind of took a stab and said so what is it this is if this is all true um days later she's on her knees at her bedside she's got she found a Bible she's got the Bible open she is just weeping at this point realizing that there was a God out there who loved her and her mom walked in on her to find her reading the Bible um this gal her name is London just got baptized in our church this past Sunday and the very next person that got baptized she did the baptizing she baptized her mom and and oh my goodness I mean there wasn't a dry eye wasn't a dry eye in the place uh that's that's the kind of stuff that can we could start to see happen right you know I'm sure you've got stories too right oh I do and you know I think I I think I I'm working with a church right now that's actually a mainline church that I would say for a lot of us that come from a conservative kind of background we would just say I don't even know if they're even really preaching Jesus um I'm watching a church realize and some of where this came from was a realization of how there were all of these young people around the church who didn't know God.
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:20.240
This church come back to its roots and say what if the Bible was actually the core of why we did everything and what if the Bible was the thing that could reach this next generation I'm talking about a church that his that historically over the last 50 years um doesn't even open the Bible and I'm helping them navigate this right now.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:30:01.440
And we're watching young people find Jesus for the first time even in a church that they've been attending you know and um we're watching our community change um we're watching um and it's amazing you know I like it it like it really is amazing to actually see that and I think all of that is a reminder that the Lord will build his church you know this is this is I think so many times even in the strategy work we do and in these stories that we we tell sometimes I just I marvel in the fact that clearly this is God who did this.
00:30:01.759 --> 00:31:40.720
You know and you telling a story like that clearly God's got something amazing in store for that yeah for that family you know and yeah um that's and so yeah and and the fact that that God comes at just the right time doesn't he just shows up at just the right time for a young gal like that um Jason if you could if we could think through just for a couple of minutes here as we're kind of winding this down practical changes that churches can make right now not five years from now which yeah then it will be too late but changes right now to better connect with spiritually interested Gen Z um you know without compromising biblical truth but but how do we uh what are the changes practical changes so one thing that I would actually suggest and um I know some people might argue with me on this but I would actually encourage pastors right now to watch the movie Jesus Revolution and um you know is there stuff in it that we're not going to agree with of course is there you know there's there's theological things that are different because all of that but there's a moment in that movie that just still gets me every time I see it and um actually there's two you know and it's it it's when the board is fixated on you know the carpet getting dirty because people are coming in barefoot.
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.119
And save the carpet.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:51.839
Right you know and it's and it's like that becomes the thing that is more important than than someone's soul.
00:31:52.400 --> 00:32:18.480
And the next scene is you know Tulsa Grammar is washing people's feet you know and you know and the same board is irritated with him you know and you know and then soon after that there's there's that moment where he just says you know there's these doors are open you know and you know if these doors swing both ways and you know this is a place where you're welcome no matter where you are no matter what you're dealing with it's open.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:52.880
And those doors are open to you but that door swings the other way too and people get up and they leave that don't believe in what he's trying to do and then the the one older guy gets up and he goes over to the other side and he says Pastor let's get started if you haven't seen the movie I just ruined a a a special moment in the movie but um I think I think something that we need to do and we need to do it now we don't need to plan a strategy we don't need to create a three year plan right is we need to decide what's more important.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:33:30.160
Is it more important for us to save the carpet and to save the chairs and to save uh the traditions that we have and to save like is that the thing that we're trying to save or do we believe that someone's soul is more important and I think that's a choice that we as pastors we've got to make that change today not something that we're actually making that change down the road and so I I know that that's a that's a big existential kind of thing that probably has to be dealt with to some degree but I but I think we need to come back to why did we get into ministry?
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:38.960
We got into ministry because God called us to to steward something meaningful and at the end of that it's people coming to know God.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:34:04.720
And um so that's number one like oh so can I just interrupt you for a second and because you didn't know I was going to do this but last year we preached a series called At the Movies and uh my son preached a sermon on the Jesus revolution and I was going to include it in this that people could watch the sermon.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:42.079
So in the drop box there will be a drop box link for pastors to be able to watch that sermon um and see some of the uh scriptures that are kind of tied in that my son tied into uh the movie itself with some of the clips in the movie you didn't know I was gonna do that so uh I I I did not know and and uh so so pastors I I would like watch the movie you know and watch it open handed you know um watch it like you eat watermelon you know spit the seeds out and um but uh allow your heart to be kind of tenderized a little bit in why do we do this?
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.800
Um I I do think that that that is important.
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:53.840
Um I think the other thing that needs to happen and this needs to happen sooner than later is you need to be in conversations with your church.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:20.000
Is our church a destination for us or is our church something that is a um a catalyst for us to go and bring the church to the next person um you know and I think we find this a lot we find that churches are either positioning themselves to be a destination I don't get more people show up at church or they're positioning themselves to be a conduit for people to to find God.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:41.599
And I think it's important for us as pastors to bring that to the church are are we simply a destination where people show up on Sunday morning or are we here for more you know for for you as a churchgoer are you here simply to show up and and be a spectator and consume?
00:35:42.079 --> 00:36:06.320
Or does God have you here for a reason too uh I think pastors need to be willing to challenge their congregations um in that um I'll give you a third one and I think um this one is is also something to do now um you need to spend time not theoretically with Gen Xers and with data and reports and articles and things like that.
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.400
You need to actually have coffee with them.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:28.800
Yeah and um I think one of the best ways for us to love our neighbor is to know our neighbor yeah and if we don't know something about the people we're trying to minister to everything we're doing is kind of over their head right and we're not talking in the same language.
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:55.599
And so um pastors be intentional about being in the community and you know you might find I mean I I'm in a coffee shop right now um I love being in in settings where I can go in and have conversations with people and um and I'm not in here having these deep heavy theological you know we're not talking about you know the soteriology we're not talking about the big things we're talking about life.
00:36:55.679 --> 00:37:04.000
Yeah and um not only does it give us moments where we can actually share the gospel it actually tells us what people are struggling with.
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:04.480
Yeah.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:21.039
And so the more present you as a pastor as a staff as churchgoers can be in your own community the wider your door actually becomes and um you know peop again people are not just going to randomly show up a church.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:31.920
I mean yes that happens every once in a while people come into a place that they're gonna feel like there's a connection and one of the best ways to create that is to be present uh in the in the community.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:33.360
So does that does that make sense?
00:37:33.599 --> 00:39:00.880
Amen amen amen well Jason thank you for uh joining us today and helping us just better understand this significant cultural moment and time that we have you know as we wrap up I hope every pastor listening um that they hear this that opportunities like this don't come around every day and throughout history God has had moments where he's opened people's hearts but the church hasn't always recognized it and recognized what he was doing in the midst of that and the question i i think for us today isn't whether or not God is at work i i i hope we believe that he's always at work the question is will we be ready will we be ready to join him um the northeast has often been a place viewed as a very difficult place difficult soil for the gospel uh to grow but perhaps this is our time perhaps this is the moment so thanks for listening to venture northeast currents um if today's uh conversation has encouraged you share it with someone else would you please and uh again until next time keep leading faithfully investing in others especially the next generation and advancing the mission of Christ throughout the north northeast thanks for listening God bless
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:17.679
Hey, welcome to Venture Northeast Currents, the podcast where we try to help pastors and ministry leaders navigate the unique opportunities and challenges of ministry across the Northeast.
00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:31.760
So I'm your host, Doug Gheese, and for years we've heard that America is becoming increasingly secular and that younger generations are walking away from the faith.
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But recently, something unexpected has been happening, and across the country, even here in the Northeast, if you could believe it, we're starting to see signs that many in Gen Z are asking deeper spiritual questions and taking a fresh look at Jesus.
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So is this just another cultural trend, or is God opening a unique window of opportunity for the church?
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And if that's true, the question isn't simply, is Gen Z interested?
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The more important question is will the church recognize this moment and be ready to respond?
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So today, joining me is Jason Lehman from Keenley.
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Jason has spent years helping churches, uh, venture churches, especially, understand the changing cultural landscape, equipping leaders to engage people with the hope of the gospel.
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Together, we're gonna just kind of discuss what is going on and how can we, as the church, respond.
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So, Jason, hey, brother, thank you for being with us.
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Always love being with you, Doug.
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So seriously, uh some it's this maybe we just have to do this more so you and I actually get more time together.
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That's great.
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I like so I like that, and actually, next time I'm gonna fly to where you are because I think the weather is a whole lot nicer where you are than it is for me right now.
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So uh yeah, it is, it's good.
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So do this in person.
00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:11.520
Um, so Jason, I want to hit you with this question because um this is really near and dear to my heart.
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I came to Jesus when I was 15 years old in 1975.
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It was at the tail end of what we call the Jesus movement.
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Um uh it it my my church back then didn't necessarily respond well to that era, um, to those people, those long-haired hippie freaks that were coming into the church.
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Um and and we are in something um a different phase, a different era right now.
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So, so many uh pastors have been hearing that Gen Z is more spiritually interested.
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So, what's actually happening from your perspective, your opinion, what do you think is going on right now?
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So it's a good question.
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It's um, you know, I talk about this a lot.
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I talk about culture, I talk about culture change and things like that.
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And um, you know, we you know, we see on our feeds, you know, universities around the country where you've got college students, you know, having these multi-day revivals.
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We um, you know, I mean, we there are things that we're seeing.
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Um, but it you you mentioned, you know, a few minutes ago, is this a trend or is something actually is something actually happening?
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Uh are these blips?
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And um, and so I'm I'm around this data and we're in conversations, I mean, daily, you know, with pastors from around the country and things like that.
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Um, it's it's also interesting because I have a college student.
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And so I'm in c I'm in conversations with college students all the time.
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And it it I do believe something is happening, and uh it's interesting because you mentioning the Jesus movement, um I think there's a corollary and uh but I don't know that it's I don't think it's quite the same.
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And um so I I think something is indeed happening, and when we look at the studies from Barna or uh we can look at uh Pew research and things like that, um Barna will tell you there is a change.
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Yeah and um Pew will say there's kind of a change.
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And um and so I think I think some of what's happening is Barna right now is measuring the intensity.
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Uh they're measuring um people of all generations, what is the intensity level of faith?
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And we are actually seeing an intensity level go up.
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So for the first time in a long time, uh we actually have recrossed the 60% um percentage of people identifying that you know they at some point have made a personal commitment to Jesus.
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Um I I think I think the stat as of the end of last year is 66%, but that that fluctuates and it also uh depends on who's looking at it that you know at that particular day.
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Yeah.
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Um that's up.
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Um that's up, that's up considerably.
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Um people going to church, especially in a younger generation, um, in the past, um, getting a younger generation, a Gen Z, a millennial, to go to church even once a month, um, in a lot of places it was difficult.
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The stats now say that those numbers are somewhere between 1.8 and 1.9 times a month.
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Um, not quite two, and obviously these are stats, so you got to average these out.
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But um that's a significant trend.
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So that tells us that something is indeed happening.
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Um the um Gen Z I think is actually looking for something right now that actually is very similar to what happened in the Jesus movement.
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And I think I think what they're looking for is significance.
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Um, they're looking for answers, um, but they're also looking for authenticity.
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Yeah.
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And um, I have some other thoughts on that, but I'd love to kind of get your take on what I just said.
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You know, and and and that's an interesting thing, is that's I what that's what I want to kind of dive a little bit deeper, is not just that it's happening, but why is it happening and what are some of the cultural phenomenon?
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Because, you know, I I think of a book back in 2014, James Emery White wrote the rise of the nuns, the the religiously unasciliated um in 2014, that's what was happening, but now suddenly, really kind of since COVID, um, we're starting to come out of that.
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Um, and and like you said, there's a there's this rise.
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So why?
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Why?
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What what do you think's driving the the return of the Gen Z uh group?
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So there's a whole factors, I'm sure, right?
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Can I just give like an opinion?
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Is that okay?
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That's what I want.
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Um that's what I want.
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Okay, because because some of this it's difficult to know because we don't have enough time, we don't have enough data to actually say this is it.
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Yeah.
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But we have a convergence of a whole lot of things happening in one moment.
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And so there's this thing, I don't know if anybody's heard of it, it's called AI that is everywhere.
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And uh it really is everywhere, and um, we have um a political uh division that is is beginning to happen everywhere.
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Um, we have a um uh what I would say is an eroding of a moral foundation in our country.
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And so we view morality not through some sort of um shared understanding, we view morality through an individualized lens.
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So we when someone says my truth, when someone says, you know, that's not right for me, or that those kind of things.
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While those things have always existed, there was still some standards that existed.
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And when we contrast the Jesus movement time, um, I think a lot of people were looking for some moment or some sense of transcendence.
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I want to find this higher meaning, I want to find, you know, those kind of things.
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But there was still some sort of moral foundation, moral authority, moral objectivity that existed.
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Today, people are still looking for some sort of transcendence, but morality means something totally different and it's completely relative.
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And so I can look at trying to find meaning, but now not filtering it through some sort of shared societal standard.
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It's entirely how I feel about it.
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And when we overlay that into um AI, um, I think there's a lot of people that are now starting to realize, well, I don't know if I can completely trust AI.
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Um, I don't um, you know, it doesn't push back on me.
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I can I can share.
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Uh, in fact, I think the stats are around 23% of young people are going to AI for support for emotional issues.
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I'm struggling.
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I've had a bad day.
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They're they're um I'm dealing with a situation.
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Um, they're going to AI asking for help, and AI is not arguing with them.
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AI is not saying, well, part of the reason that you're having a bad day is you've made some bad choices.
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Um AI is going to respond in a way that actually comforts and comforts in a way without a human, um, an emotional and especially a spiritual overlay that is actually helpful.
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And so I think that's bringing young people to a place of I have all these things, I'm being told all of these things, I need something that's real.
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And I think it's it's creating curiosity that is different than that than has existed before.
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Yeah, I I I wholeheartedly agree with some of your opinions on that.
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I think here's here's what breaks my heart.
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Um, years ago, a good friend of mine who grew up um in in our conservative Baptist circles, he was a pastor, and and he and he said this to me.
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He said, Um, way back in the 60s and 70s, we missed the opportunity because we didn't we didn't let those long-haired hippie freaks into our churches, you know, get a haircut, um, you know, take a bath.
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Um and there were these preconceived notions, misconceptions um that that they had about that generation that were getting spiritually interested.
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So what do you think today if we could go think about some of the misconceptions that are out there about Gen Z that would that would prevent us from engaging with them effectively?
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What would what would some of those misconceptions be about Gen Z?
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That's a that's a really good question.
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Um there is a um there's an acceptance level that I think we in the church, especially as pastors, we have um it's almost like a it's like a threshold that exists.
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And I think sometimes what happens is when we're observing Gen Z or we're observing anything, uh we're measuring um how much we're going to accept or tolerate or whatever, based on this kind of unspoken threshold that we have.
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And so for in the Jesus movement, somebody coming in with long hair, somebody coming in barefoot, someone coming in playing music that didn't fit, um, some of those were thresholds.
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And part of what we would do is we would say, well, get a haircut, and then you can come in.
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Make sure you put shoes on, you can come in.
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We're not gonna do that kind of music.
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And if and as long as you can accept that, you can come in.
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Um, you know, if you're doing drugs, just don't do them here.
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You know, I mean, there's uh there were there were these thresholds.
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Well, the thresholds are far more about identity today than they uh are simply about how we look or how we act.
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Um and so like I'll give you I'll give you an example.
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Um if if a if a Gen Z, if a if a if a younger person um is dealing in a very real way uh with um gender identity, um and they suddenly show up in a conservative church, um there's a very strong reality in many conservative churches that we're gonna say you're not welcome here until you actually um abide by our standard of what the Bible says about gender.
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Yeah.
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Um now in contrast, now I'm not saying every church does this, and there's a lot of churches that are are trying to navigate this and they're navigating it well.
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Um, there's some that are not.
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Um now in contrast, this same person could go to um a community, they could go to the the gay lesbian community and say, I'm trying to navigate this.
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I have questions, I don't know what to do.
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And in that setting, be amazingly welcomed.
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We're all trying to figure this out.
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Um, and uh you're loved, you're accepted.
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And it can be really easy in a church setting not to start with that in case you have to edit out the loud music that just went by in the car.
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Um, in the in the church, you know, it can be really easy for us um to create barriers in terms of what are we willing to accept uh prior to even having a conversation.
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:57.519
And so sometimes for us, we're actually applying measurements and things like that on people while they're still trying to figure things out.
00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:08.399
And so someone coming in saying, I'm trying to figure out who I am, I'm trying to figure out how I identify and all of that, can be very easy for us to say, Well, you have a sin issue, you need to figure that out.
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:12.879
And once you figure that out, then we can have a deeper conversation about how you fit here.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:23.200
Um, why would somebody who's in that place say, Boy, I can't wait to go to church.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.360
I can't wait to have somebody judge me.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.320
I can't wait to have somebody not understand me.
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.840
Um, of course, they're gonna look for places that are gonna help them navigate those moments.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:40.720
And I think churches back in the Jesus movement that um that figured this out.
00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:48.000
They figured out, you know, people are navigating things that we don't quite understand, but we still want to be present in those conversations.
00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.960
And we're and we're not saying that those things are right.
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:56.799
Um we're not saying that that things that people aren't dealing with aren't sinful and things like that.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:07.360
But part of I think what we're doing is being willing to have the door open enough to say, can you have the conversation here with us before you go somewhere else?
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.600
Um, because at least here there's a there's a spiritual component of that.
00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:15.039
And I think I think the Lord modeled that for us all over the place.
00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:15.360
Right.
00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:21.440
You know, he he's meeting with people that everybody said were sinners, they were the wrong people to meet with, yeah.
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:22.960
And he'd go meet with them anyway.
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:23.440
Yeah.
00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:29.120
Um and so I I I think that is a component that we have to keep in mind.
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:37.440
And um, I have another thought on that, but uh respond to what I just said, you know, before I I kind of move into the next thing.
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:53.679
Well, you you talked about the door, and you know, so let's let's put this into practice here and say a spiritually curious Gen Z young adult walks through your doors this Sunday morning.
00:16:55.279 --> 00:17:00.559
What would be the things that would make them feel like they belong?
00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:11.599
Like they found something uh genuine and authentic rather than oh, this is just another boring church service, just another organization on the planet.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.599
Um what that's a that's a great question.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:17.359
What would make the difference?
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:29.440
I think the I think one of the biggest differences that can be made in those moments is actually um a posture on our end, uh a posture change on our end.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:37.759
Um I think one thing that that I always come back to is you know, at the foot of the cross, everybody's the same.
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:38.480
Yeah.
00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:48.640
Um, we are all actually all image bearers of of God, whether we have stewarded that well or not, whether we actually have a relationship with God or not.
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:59.039
And I think sometimes it is very um easy for us to create a hierarchy of who is carrying the image of Jesus better.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:09.920
And I think sometimes at a very basic level, for us to realize at some point we're all searching, we're all questioning, we're all curious.
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:16.480
Some of us have different color hair, some of us identify as different kinds of people.
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:21.680
Um, some of us like one kind of music, some people like a different kind of music.
00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:35.279
And I think when we have that as a starting point where we're not looking at somebody from the lens of right and wrong first, we're looking at it from the standpoint of we all need we're all kneeling at the cross the same way.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:47.839
We actually can approach things first with a moment of kindness and uh and helping hand um first because I think that's what people need.
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:55.359
And when that happens, it creates a welcoming moment that I think sometimes is very foreign for a new person that comes into church.
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:08.640
Um it's not our job to force people into conformity, um, it's actually our job to love people, and I think um I think we miss that in churches sometimes.
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:19.519
I think we've got to find ways to be loving first and then have the harder conversation second rather than doing it the other way.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:35.680
Um, and so someone comes in that doesn't fit the normal context of who shows up, that's a that's an amazing opportunity because they came to your church instead of going somewhere else.
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:36.240
Yeah.
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:48.960
Um, and when we change our posture and we change our our vantage point a little bit and realize what if God's actually bringing them in for you to build a relationship with them?
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:50.960
I think it changes the way we welcome.
00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:54.640
And I act, and I actually think it changes the way people receive that.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:07.119
Um there are stats even today that still say over 50% of people uh will come to church, even if they don't believe in God, if a friend invites them.
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:10.720
Um like think about that for a minute.
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:19.839
Think about the fact that somebody who does not have a relationship with God, who does not go to church, would still consider going to church if someone invited them.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:20.640
Yeah.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:27.680
And a lot of times the people who get invited to church still don't feel feel welcome even when they do that.
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:37.200
And so um, I think when we have that desire to let's love first, let's realize that people may be coming to church because God's bringing them there, yeah.
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.680
Um, we have an opportunity.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.079
And I think we just have to be we have to be careful, you know, with that.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.440
So I know um if if I go ahead.
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:48.240
Yeah.
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:58.079
Well, I I actually have a thought on um uh an observation I make on the younger generation related to this, but say what you were gonna say first.
00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:07.680
Yeah, I you know I I I I spent a lot of time over the summer traveling and meeting with pastors throughout the Northeast.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:15.440
I think I put uh over 3,000 miles on the car this summer, uh, traveling in Maine, New York.
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:32.640
And one of the things I kept hearing from a lot of pastors was their communities have become increasingly secular, and I I could sense this pessimism about reaching the next generation.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:43.279
Um they they they just weren't that optimistic about about the challenges and about what was confronting them in their communities.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:59.759
And boy, do I get that because when I came to Auburn, you know, I had 20 people in the church at the time, and it it it seemed like um I was just running through thick mud for so many years, um, and it and it was.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:23:34.160
challenging if you could if you could speak a word to the pastors right now you know about not giving up on that on this next generation but and and you know no matter how how dire and dark it seems right now what would you say to pastors I I think what I would say first is um stop comparing yourself to other churches um comparison is one of the most dangerous things that we see in church leadership yeah and when it happens when we start comparing ourselves to other churches it become it becomes so easy for us to say we're not doing it right God's not blessing our church there's something wrong with our leadership there or whatever it is if you're a church of 20 people and you're stewarding what God's asked you to do celebrate that yeah um if you're a church of 2000 people and you're stewarding what God has is is giving you to do celebrate that um I think there I think because we go to conferences we watch things online it's really easy for us to equate success with attendance and I would argue that that the health of your church the significance of your impact actually has nothing to do with the number of people who show up at your church versus somebody else's church and I think that's just that first I think that's really important.
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:49.119
I think the second thing to remember in this is especially in a local community we do not have the ability to um accurately um measure what God is doing.
00:23:50.400 --> 00:24:23.279
All we get to see is the effects of things you know and you know I think about you know Elijah after you know he runs and he's you know you know woe is me you know and and then God shows up you know and I I know I've been there and you know is he in the big wind is he and and he's and he's in this still small quiet yeah you know I think that that tells us that we we don't have the ability to measure sometimes the way we think we do.
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:35.279
And faithfulness I think is one of one of um the most beautiful things when a pastor is willing to be faithful even though it kind of is isn't what it should be and things like that.
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:42.240
I do believe that faithfulness and being true to what God's called you to do will always produce fruit.
00:24:42.400 --> 00:25:04.319
Yeah it may not produce fruit in six months it may it may it may take years um but I I do believe that that is real I believe that that is um it's something that is happening um I'm watching this happen in a small church right now that is um in a community that is absolutely anti-God.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:10.400
And I'm watching a pastor just be faithful uh to what God's asked him to do.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:17.440
And I would say churches on the outside who are farther away if they were evaluating this is what they would say this church doesn't know what they're doing.
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:26.400
They are small but I'm watching God change the lives of people in absolutely amazing ways.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:39.039
And I would look at that and say that is a tremendous success and a and a tremendous example of the faithfulness of of of the Lord but also the faithfulness of one that God has called to do his work.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:47.680
And so don't let the comparisons and don't let the measurements of church growth people get too much into your head.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:50.559
Stay true to what God has called you to do.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:55.680
And if you hit a point where you just don't know how to navigate that call me.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:06.319
Call Doug call another pastor and navigate that uh with somebody we do not have good objectivity when we do this by ourselves.
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:17.920
And so if I can just if I can be an encouragement um in that um and seriously call me call Doug call call call somebody don't do this by yourself.
00:26:18.240 --> 00:28:55.119
That was gonna be my next question what are some of the stories out there um you know stories churches obviously you shared about that one pastor um you know uh there's there's others right I I could share one I'll I'll share one really quick story um a young 20 something this was just weeks ago um she was at the end um there's a really dark story in her past from when she was a child um it wound up to where just as a matter of just a few weeks back she was ready to end it all she was ready to write a note on her phone to her family and um something came across her feed saying do you want some good news she was already to write this letter to her family a goodbye letter and she just thought to herself why not I'll click on it and it was a pastor introducing the gospel introducing her to Jesus and she just kind of took a stab and said so what is it this is if this is all true um days later she's on her knees at her bedside she's got she found a Bible she's got the Bible open she is just weeping at this point realizing that there was a God out there who loved her and her mom walked in on her to find her reading the Bible um this gal her name is London just got baptized in our church this past Sunday and the very next person that got baptized she did the baptizing she baptized her mom and and oh my goodness I mean there wasn't a dry eye wasn't a dry eye in the place uh that's that's the kind of stuff that can we could start to see happen right you know I'm sure you've got stories too right oh I do and you know I think I I think I I'm working with a church right now that's actually a mainline church that I would say for a lot of us that come from a conservative kind of background we would just say I don't even know if they're even really preaching Jesus um I'm watching a church realize and some of where this came from was a realization of how there were all of these young people around the church who didn't know God.
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:20.240
This church come back to its roots and say what if the Bible was actually the core of why we did everything and what if the Bible was the thing that could reach this next generation I'm talking about a church that his that historically over the last 50 years um doesn't even open the Bible and I'm helping them navigate this right now.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:30:01.440
And we're watching young people find Jesus for the first time even in a church that they've been attending you know and um we're watching our community change um we're watching um and it's amazing you know I like it it like it really is amazing to actually see that and I think all of that is a reminder that the Lord will build his church you know this is this is I think so many times even in the strategy work we do and in these stories that we we tell sometimes I just I marvel in the fact that clearly this is God who did this.
00:30:01.759 --> 00:31:40.720
You know and you telling a story like that clearly God's got something amazing in store for that yeah for that family you know and yeah um that's and so yeah and and the fact that that God comes at just the right time doesn't he just shows up at just the right time for a young gal like that um Jason if you could if we could think through just for a couple of minutes here as we're kind of winding this down practical changes that churches can make right now not five years from now which yeah then it will be too late but changes right now to better connect with spiritually interested Gen Z um you know without compromising biblical truth but but how do we uh what are the changes practical changes so one thing that I would actually suggest and um I know some people might argue with me on this but I would actually encourage pastors right now to watch the movie Jesus Revolution and um you know is there stuff in it that we're not going to agree with of course is there you know there's there's theological things that are different because all of that but there's a moment in that movie that just still gets me every time I see it and um actually there's two you know and it's it it's when the board is fixated on you know the carpet getting dirty because people are coming in barefoot.
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.119
And save the carpet.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:51.839
Right you know and it's and it's like that becomes the thing that is more important than than someone's soul.
00:31:52.400 --> 00:32:18.480
And the next scene is you know Tulsa Grammar is washing people's feet you know and you know and the same board is irritated with him you know and you know and then soon after that there's there's that moment where he just says you know there's these doors are open you know and you know if these doors swing both ways and you know this is a place where you're welcome no matter where you are no matter what you're dealing with it's open.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:52.880
And those doors are open to you but that door swings the other way too and people get up and they leave that don't believe in what he's trying to do and then the the one older guy gets up and he goes over to the other side and he says Pastor let's get started if you haven't seen the movie I just ruined a a a special moment in the movie but um I think I think something that we need to do and we need to do it now we don't need to plan a strategy we don't need to create a three year plan right is we need to decide what's more important.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:33:30.160
Is it more important for us to save the carpet and to save the chairs and to save uh the traditions that we have and to save like is that the thing that we're trying to save or do we believe that someone's soul is more important and I think that's a choice that we as pastors we've got to make that change today not something that we're actually making that change down the road and so I I know that that's a that's a big existential kind of thing that probably has to be dealt with to some degree but I but I think we need to come back to why did we get into ministry?
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:38.960
We got into ministry because God called us to to steward something meaningful and at the end of that it's people coming to know God.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:34:04.720
And um so that's number one like oh so can I just interrupt you for a second and because you didn't know I was going to do this but last year we preached a series called At the Movies and uh my son preached a sermon on the Jesus revolution and I was going to include it in this that people could watch the sermon.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:42.079
So in the drop box there will be a drop box link for pastors to be able to watch that sermon um and see some of the uh scriptures that are kind of tied in that my son tied into uh the movie itself with some of the clips in the movie you didn't know I was gonna do that so uh I I I did not know and and uh so so pastors I I would like watch the movie you know and watch it open handed you know um watch it like you eat watermelon you know spit the seeds out and um but uh allow your heart to be kind of tenderized a little bit in why do we do this?
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.800
Um I I do think that that that is important.
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:53.840
Um I think the other thing that needs to happen and this needs to happen sooner than later is you need to be in conversations with your church.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:20.000
Is our church a destination for us or is our church something that is a um a catalyst for us to go and bring the church to the next person um you know and I think we find this a lot we find that churches are either positioning themselves to be a destination I don't get more people show up at church or they're positioning themselves to be a conduit for people to to find God.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:41.599
And I think it's important for us as pastors to bring that to the church are are we simply a destination where people show up on Sunday morning or are we here for more you know for for you as a churchgoer are you here simply to show up and and be a spectator and consume?
00:35:42.079 --> 00:36:06.320
Or does God have you here for a reason too uh I think pastors need to be willing to challenge their congregations um in that um I'll give you a third one and I think um this one is is also something to do now um you need to spend time not theoretically with Gen Xers and with data and reports and articles and things like that.
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.400
You need to actually have coffee with them.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:28.800
Yeah and um I think one of the best ways for us to love our neighbor is to know our neighbor yeah and if we don't know something about the people we're trying to minister to everything we're doing is kind of over their head right and we're not talking in the same language.
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:55.599
And so um pastors be intentional about being in the community and you know you might find I mean I I'm in a coffee shop right now um I love being in in settings where I can go in and have conversations with people and um and I'm not in here having these deep heavy theological you know we're not talking about you know the soteriology we're not talking about the big things we're talking about life.
00:36:55.679 --> 00:37:04.000
Yeah and um not only does it give us moments where we can actually share the gospel it actually tells us what people are struggling with.
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:04.480
Yeah.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:21.039
And so the more present you as a pastor as a staff as churchgoers can be in your own community the wider your door actually becomes and um you know peop again people are not just going to randomly show up a church.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:31.920
I mean yes that happens every once in a while people come into a place that they're gonna feel like there's a connection and one of the best ways to create that is to be present uh in the in the community.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:33.360
So does that does that make sense?
00:37:33.599 --> 00:39:00.880
Amen amen amen well Jason thank you for uh joining us today and helping us just better understand this significant cultural moment and time that we have you know as we wrap up I hope every pastor listening um that they hear this that opportunities like this don't come around every day and throughout history God has had moments where he's opened people's hearts but the church hasn't always recognized it and recognized what he was doing in the midst of that and the question i i think for us today isn't whether or not God is at work i i i hope we believe that he's always at work the question is will we be ready will we be ready to join him um the northeast has often been a place viewed as a very difficult place difficult soil for the gospel uh to grow but perhaps this is our time perhaps this is the moment so thanks for listening to venture northeast currents um if today's uh conversation has encouraged you share it with someone else would you please and uh again until next time keep leading faithfully investing in others especially the next generation and advancing the mission of Christ throughout the north northeast thanks for listening God bless
