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I'm Ashin Addison from the Crypto Coin Show, and today
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on Blockchain Interviews, I'm joined with Shiram Kattack, general counsel
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at Trust Wallet, the world's leading self custody crypto wallet,
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with over two hundred and twenty million downloads across one
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hundred plus blockchains. There's a lot to dive into today. Sharram,
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welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time.
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Thank you, Thank you very much. Pleasure to be on
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the show.
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Yeah, excited to dive into the world of crypto right now.
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We're massively expanding and at the same time in a
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bit of a shift in figuring out where to stick
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as we continue to grow. I know Trust Wallet from
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as far back as twenty seventeen being one of the
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best self custody wallets, but now it's expanded into spot trading, PERPS,
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prediction markets, AI agents. I'm sure as well. From where
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you sit and watching the expansion of trust and the wallet,
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what's the biggest shift that's happened over the last few years.
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Well, I mean, I think over the last few years
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it's it's been more about the technology growing and developing
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and becoming something that users can can readily access and
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and have available to them. You know, we we don't.
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We don't. As a self custody platform, we're very different
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to the centralized exchange, so we don't affect orders, we
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don't execute orders. The model is entirely different. We're self custody,
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and in that respect, it's more about what the user
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using our system as a tool to do what they
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want to do in crypto, and so you can see
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that kind of evolution of the user's behavior through platforms
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such as all the self custody wallets, all the DAPs
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in our system, the des is and and so forth.
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah. I love that the ethos has been self custody
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since the beginning and you continue to grow to hundreds
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of millions of users.
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I feel like it's been an uphill battle.
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Not that it's necessarily a direct competition between centralized exchanges
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with custody versus the decentralized self custody, but it's always
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been harder for self custody. It appears to grow. Do
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you think there was that struggle with Trustwallet?
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Yeah, of course, you know, you have to. It's not
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it's not always about walking a fine line. There's there's
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also huge sectors. There's huge activities that you're just simply
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not allowed to get in get involved in, and you
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have to be extremely careful because the stakes are high.
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If you get it wrong, you know, you can get
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into a lot of trouble. So you have to be
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very mindful of how you navigate that field.
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Definitely, and over the last few years, alongside the legislation,
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we've been seeing glimpses of emerging potentially of trad fi
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and other traditional markets with self custody and decentralized networks.
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I know your background was in tradfi, finance, securities, capital
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markets before getting into crypto. How do you think that
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your background shapes the way that you see where the
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industry and where trust is headed in those two industries merging.
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Yeah, thats a really good question. I mean, if you'd
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ask me this when I first joined got into crypto,
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I would have probably given you a completely different answer.
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So I got into crypto because I saw firsthand, largely
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because I was the only lawyer in the bank that
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I was at who knew anything about crypto at the time,
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and they were running a experiment with crypto infrastructure, and
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it was this large consortat Team of banks and they
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were looking at how crypto infrastructure would it impact a
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capital markets transaction. And that's when I realized that as
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an infrastructure play, this is the future. So for me,
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it made no sense to like, once you once, once
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you kind of make that decision, it makes no sense
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to you know, not explore it. So so so that's
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kind of what brought me into crypto. I was already
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you know, like involved in crypto and personal capacity, but
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that was more kind of you know, speculating with bitcoin
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and things like that. Now though, I think my my
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answer might be slightly more nuanced. I think that there's
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you can see the industry really splitting. One is going
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after the infrastructure side, and that's where I think you
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you have you can see Tradify coming in. You can
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see the players that Robin Hood and Revolutes and the
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big banks like playing around with the sector in different
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ways at this on the speculative edge and also on.
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The infrastructure edge. The the other part of crypto which
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has come which has come through is this kind of
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almost doubling down on the counterculture, which was the founding
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ethos of crypto. This this concept of okay, well you know,
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we want, we want something slightly different. We that's where
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the tenets of privacy and self custody really become important
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for you to to understand and uphold. And I think
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that's really fascinating because that's where I can see a
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lot of the innovation still happening.
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Yeah, it is super exciting, and I think a lot
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of experimentation need has been done on the on the
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privacy front, and we've evolved from just having you know,
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dark coins that were meant for criminals to having encryption,
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you know, fully homomorphic encryption or ZK proofs that privacy
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used for corporations and enterprises and good guys. I feel
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like that's something that has evolved that's a benefit to
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in blockchain, to the rest of the world.
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Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean the conversations evolved so much,
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Like I remember, I remember the idea of trying to
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defend privacy as as somehow immediately making you culpable of, like,
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you know, some sort of criminal activity. And I forget
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who there was a big crypto account. I can't I
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can't remember who it was exactly now, but they made
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the analogy to drawing your curtains in your bedroom and saying, well,
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if you draw your curtains, that doesn't mean you're immediately
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going in staf being someone behind, you know, in your room.
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So and it was just yeah, Now, thankfully we have
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a much more mature way of thinking about privacy. And coincidentally,
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you know, tradify might might be responsible for that kind
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of maturity there, because suddenly people realize, oh, actually, I
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don't want all my transactions to be fully visible. I
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don't want my my wallet to be in the same
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way as you don't want your bank account to be
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fully you know, transparent and visible.
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Definitely, you know, I would love to dive into the
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exciting stuff with regards to trading volumes, the actually the
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action that's happening in the market, despite sort of a
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consolidation and bitcoin and maybe you know, not as high
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volumes as we would see in a crazy bull market.
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It seems like trustwallet has had like a billion dollars
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in volume in perpetuals in a short amount of time.
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And this hyper liquid integration which has been super hot
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right now, which also follows the.
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Sort of decentralized ethos.
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Maybe you can touch on the hyper liquid part and
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perpetuals and what you guys are seeing right now with
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the current market conditions.
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I mean you look like you you you called it
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that you know, there's there's a uh consolidation and bitcoin.
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I think I think you can say that there's a
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real reflection going on within the industry as to kind
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of where where does the value lie? You know, we're
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not some parts of the sector are still narrative driven
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and others are now becoming a little bit more fundamentals
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driven or something else. You know that there might be
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something else going on as well, because I think I
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think one thing you need to kind of accept with
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crypto is it's not always obvious what's happening. So so
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when when when you're mixing things that you we still
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don't have a full grasp on, like like around the
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tokenomic plus narrative plus fundamentals, it's it's still it's still
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anyone's guess as to what's really happening with certain assets
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and certain sectors. The prediction markets is a really interesting one.
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It's it's obviously one of those features within our sector
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that's proven its market fit. And so you know, we're
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seeing continued activity in in in the perpetual space, and
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and and yeah, I mean, it's it's it's it's interesting
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to see users and their behavior with respect to how
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they view these sorts of assets and and maybe you know,
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what they're trying to do. We have the whole spectrum
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of users who who choose to do what they want
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on through the platform, whether that be small small trades
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or you know, signals of slightly more sophisticated hedging activity
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and things like that. You can see the whole spectrum.
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Yeah, it really seems like a dream integration for trust Wallet.
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Hyper liquid is making a name even more so than
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the centralized exchanges, especially at this time in the market.
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But just overall, it's like that's what the goal has been,
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was to keep it self custody and find a way to.
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Trade without having to go.
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Through the complexities and learn all this extra stuff like
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you would in a centralized experience. I feel like this
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is as close as we're getting to it right now.
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I don't know if it's perfect, but it seems pretty
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good for you guys.
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Yeah, yeah, I think like it's it's like I always
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I always try and like reflect on, like you know,
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kind of what's happening and take taking a slightly more
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academic big picture in mind. Like what I mean by
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that is right now, hyper Liquids in a phase of
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its life where it is myopically focused on one thing
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it just needs to execute, execute, execute this one aspect
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of of of of its chosen kind of field a
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lot of the big DEXes, centralized exchanges, or any product
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that starts its life with one focus tends to do
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quite well. And then as it scales, it needs to
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it needs to think about, you know, things like well, okay,
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how do I make money? How do I pay bills?
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How do I retain users? How do I expand my
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feature set? And that's where I think you can start
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start to lose some of your magic. So hyper Liquids
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on a fascinating journey. You know, it's it's obviously proven
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that it can do things really, really, really well. I
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think that now the next phase of hyper liquids journey
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is going to be even more interesting.
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To watch, definitely, And I feel like you could say
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the same with with trust wallet. You do one thing
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really well, but then there's users want certain feature sets
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and then okay, perbs prediction market, you know, where where
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does the team find that balance of like let's just
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keep adding functions as the narrative changes.
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But yeah, focused on the principles.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should have seen that coming. Yeah,
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so you're right, You're right, it is so I think
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I think, I think, okay, so have you asked me
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this question last year? I think I was really stumbled
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on this one because last year we were we were
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I think, following the everything app thesis, right, so we
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wanted to be all things to all people, and in
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fairness to us, at the time, the thinking was, you know,
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you look around and you see this great bundling. So
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there was the effectively the fat app thesis, right, So
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everything was getting bundled up into one application, one platform,
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and you could do everything you wanted to on that platform.
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And you would point to players like Ali Baba or
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we Chat and say, okay, look look what they're doing.
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Then you'd look at maybe what the strategy behind Google
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and Meta, you know, an Apple. Now I think you're
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seeing this kind of unbundling and then rebundling of certain features.
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So the like take a bank that the different parts
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of the bank are getting unbundled, and you're getting players
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coming in and nibbling very specific niche processes and then
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they're also then saying, Okay, well I can do this,
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but I can actually do a few other kind of
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adjacent things as well, and you can bundle that together.
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So you're getting this weird kind of like consolidation across
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the market and reorganization across the market. And trust Well
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is in exactly the same phase we had. We had
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a shift in CEO recently, so Felix joined in February
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and he's brought a real focus on the product. There's
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just this kind of singular focus on Okay, we need
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to fix the products. And that's I think what you're
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seeing happening with trust Waallet in the market where we
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are just I mean, you know, can'tly describe it any
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other way other than just trying to fix the product
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and then everything else will figure out after.
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Yeah.
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No, I think it's I think it's a great focus.
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You know, obviously product first, and then the image will
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be portrayed through the success of the product itself.
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Hopefully.
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Yeah, fall goes to scale, you know, as the as
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the council, how do you see the hyper liquid integration
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prediction markets? You know, at a global scale, looking at
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the different jurisdictions are there any major issues or are
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there any golden gate areas where you need to focus
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on more than others?
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No, I mean, look, it's it's really difficult, and you
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can see the you can see how painful it is
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just by looking at how all of us in in
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crypto are just tiptoeing around and you know, trying our
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best to navigate very uncertain water. It's I mean, like
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perpetuals is a little bit is that that there's a
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bit a lot more guidance around the perpetuals space than
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there is in the predictions. The predictions thing is is tricky.
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You need to kind of you know, borrow thinking and
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reasoning that that we've now tested in other aspects of crypto,
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and then be mindful of certain things that a regulator
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might look at and be like, well, actually know, this
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is materially different to what happened before, or what happened
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in you know, perpetuals or whatever. So for example, you
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it's it's untested around what what the impact of the
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the way in which you the infrastructure of a predictions
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market itself is untested ground. So yeah, I mean, like
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the it is, it is difficult, and everyone's you know,
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going about it in in it, uh by by exercising
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their best judgment and in good faith. I think that's
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that's kind of how how I look at these things,
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which is you need to you need to approach the
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a novel topic, a a novel product by looking at
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it from the regulator's perspective in good faith and see, okay,
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well what what what would a regulator be concerned about?
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And then try and approach it from that angle.
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Mhm yeah, I like that approach.
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And when you have these great areas of new markets
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completely it's almost like when bitcoin it became, you know,
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when bitcoin started to exist and people were like, there's
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there's no asset classification for this, and like on on
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the legal papers. You know how that's why the bank
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set stayed away because it's like this is a new
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asset class. Prediction markets are almost like that in that
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we haven't been able to bet on you know, there's
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been sports betting for a while, but now it's like
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everything and like you've got to figure out the rules
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making sure there's no insider trading or manipulation and all
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these different stories you're hearing about, you know, people affecting
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the weather while they bet on it and and everything else.
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So yeah, it's trying to manage that is much beyond
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just managing a crypto wallet.
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Yeah yeah, I mean the thing is that, like you know,
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it's it's so we have a slightly lower risk profile
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being being a platform, a self custodical platform. But I
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think I think what's really important here is that and
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and and what I hope the regulates is also you know, see,
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I think I think in some in some instances, the
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regulators don't look at things in this in in this
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way in the following way, and that is you need
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to leave some space. I believe you need to leave
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some space for experimentation. You know, if you look at
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how DeFi is evolved where we are today, DeFi is,
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without doubt a useful technology, Like it is something that
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is being incorporated into traditional finance, and it would never
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have got there. Hyper Liquid wouldn't exist if you didn't
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have people, you know, yoloing a thousand x on the
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doge coin back in the day, like like the mean
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point market. Whatever you want to say about it, it
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did prove the technology, you know, it forced us to
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create a system that could handle that throughput and and
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and I think predictions is in a very similar space.
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You know, people are experimenting in a way, which means
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that the technology is being forced to adapt and being
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forced to self uh, to self regulate, to evolve and
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mature in a meaningful way, and it's becoming a primitive
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You can see it happening, Like you're already seeing people
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looking at prediction markets as lego blocks in terms of
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you know, risk analysis and and and hedging your position
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in on your spot trades. So like, you know, if
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you have a portfolio that's like skewed towards a certain sector,
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you could use prediction markets to see whether or not
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you're you should make any changes to that thinking.
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Yeah.
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No, it's a great point and a funny omen to
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the meme coin trading. It sort of makes me think
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of you know, I don't know if it's Elon Musk's quote,
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but you know he says, first, just make it exist,
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then make it better. In the beginning, it's probably going
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to be bad, but make it exist, uh, And that's
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what happened sort of meme coins, and now it's like legit.
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Yeah, yeah, there's there's another one. There's so Felix my
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Felix my shadow me for saying this, but I have
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heard him say, if you if you're not ashamed of
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your first of your first launch, you're launching too slow. Yeah, like,
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like obviously you know the regulators listening. You know, you
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have to button up, all the legal compliances all all
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buttoned up, but you need to, you need to, you
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need to get the product out to see how the
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market is reacting. And then and then you start to iterate.
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Definitely, And I feel like that's there's been a bit
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of a different approach between the American North American markets
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and the European markets, trying to have too many rules
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and regulations, and that's inhibited the innovation in why the
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financial industry is the greatest in the world in America.
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Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's a that's an interesting one. Like
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I wish so I'm I'm you know, from I've spent
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most of my life in the UK, and I would
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love to be able to come back to you on
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that and defend that region, that part of the world.
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But yeah, I'm not I'm not sure I really understand.
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I mean, I understand what they're doing because you know,
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it's it's like I'm intellectually able to understand it that
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they have a protective positions, right, So they they're they're
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they're overemphasizing on we need to make sure, we need
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to we need to regulate, we need to make sure
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that the people are protected. But it's it's almost taking
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a slightly.
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I mean.
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Yeah, like I would say, it's kind of not not
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patronizing the public, but certainly being a bit too paternalistic.
348
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Mm hmm.
349
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Yeah.
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Well, moving forward, there's going to be a lot more
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discussion on the AI front and AI agents. That it's
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a blockchain, but now that AI agents can have their
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own wallets and make transactions on people's behalf, it's adding
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in more complexities to to the legal side.
355
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As well, which you've involved in.
356
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Can you touch on trust wallets, integration with regards to
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AI agents payments and where do you see that going?
358
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So yeah, I mean, look like AI agents, it's it's
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difficult to it's difficult that there's two things right now
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to consider. One is obviously the there are some real
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issues with how you can deploy an agent, uh, with
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the functionality that you that you may you know, wish
363
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to have in a self custody environment. There there's some
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real there's some real difficult uh regulations that you have
365
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to kind of navigate. So so you're going to find
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the functionality more in in in the central logic exchanges
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and in the regulated entities. The other thing which I
368
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think is really interesting that's coming through is the product
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fit and just whether or not there is uptake. I
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think those two factors, once we start getting a handle
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on how those are panning out, you'll really start to see, Okay,
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what is is this something that uses want? Yeah?
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Yeah, No, it's a great point because it's the hot
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topic right now and it's the narrative. But will it
375
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Will it stick or will it be sort of like
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n f T s that you know, don't have as
377
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much value as in all of the different aspects as
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you thought they would when they first came out. We're
379
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already seeing integrations in these regulated entities like robin Hood.
380
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:09.359
You know it's popping up on my phone trade your
381
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agent will trade. I haven't. I haven't tried it yet.
382
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:15.599
I'm like, I've been busy. I don't know how many
383
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people are actually gonna what percentage of people are actually
384
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.599
going to have their AI agents trading for them versus
385
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just having a passive portfolio that maybe it rebalances once
386
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.680
a year like their financial advisor would. Maybe they're day
387
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trading with these AI agents. No one really knows at
388
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this point. And you know, that's another thing, as we
389
00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:38.440
talked about in adding more functions, you know, is this
390
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something that trust while it actually sees everyone's going to
391
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:44.200
be using this, we need to add this Or should
392
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:47.640
we focus on the purpse and and having that great
393
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:49.359
experience and focusing on that integration.
394
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:51.000
There's so many things to focus on.
395
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.119
Yeah, yeah, so I think I think in this instance,
396
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:07.759
the you know, the AI piece is something which will eventually,
397
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once it's mature enough, feed into every feature set. The
398
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:17.480
way that I look at it is you've got different verticals,
399
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:23.519
so you can have DeFi, you can have payments, you
400
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:31.400
can have adapts, you can have you know, different different verticals.
401
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:36.759
Right now, AI is spoken about as another vertical, but
402
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:39.119
actually it's a horizontal. It sits across all of them,
403
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.079
and I think that you kind of need to have
404
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:45.319
skin in the game to understand how it would sit
405
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:50.039
across all your features, Otherwise otherwise it'll be disjointed. It'll
406
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:54.039
almost feel like you have two apps, and so you
407
00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.319
don't want that, so you have to you have to
408
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:59.799
think about it, you have to put some resources into it,
409
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:03.079
and kind of I think a reflection on how trust
410
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:05.960
Well is running it. So we have our principal lines
411
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.319
of business. As we said, we are focusing on the product.
412
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So the principal lines are the ones that we are
413
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doubling down on and we're making sure we've we've ironed
414
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out everything and we're at the real you know, forefront
415
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.039
of the industry.
416
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:22.920
But you can't.
417
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.480
Afford to get left behind in the AI race, so
418
00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:28.319
you need to have some R and D going on
419
00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:30.400
there too, And that's a.
420
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.720
Whole different monster. It's not just integrating purpose. It's like
421
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:37.920
this affects every function of an application.
422
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.680
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So so that's where you can see
423
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.680
the agent kit and you know, things like that. So
424
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.319
at the minute, it's it's a little bit more developer focused.
425
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.480
It's about externalizing the wallet APIs so that the developers
426
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:54.079
can do things and make things available to our users.
427
00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:58.359
I think what's really fascinating, and I think you know
428
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.200
that the AI sector is talking about this ad infinite
429
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:08.480
and is how AI changes your internal processes. So you know,
430
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:12.720
we are focused on on that as well. We're looking
431
00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:16.119
at how AI can be embedded within our operations and
432
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.720
infrastructure and how that changes the way that we work,
433
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.319
and that too, is a fascinating journey, right because like
434
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.039
in the beginning, like like you know, if if we
435
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:31.160
just like AI is like speed running every sector, it's
436
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:34.720
it's it's it's astonishing, and you know, like every day
437
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.559
things are changing in AI to the point where like
438
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:40.880
like if you look at something in the morning, you're like, Okay, cool,
439
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.799
that sounds like a cool idea, and you start trying
440
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:45.799
to figure it out. Like literally, by the end of
441
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:50.319
the day it's old and something news happening and you're
442
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:55.200
just like okay. But I think there's also been a
443
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:57.799
slight kind of realization and wake up call in that
444
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:03.079
AI is not the answer to everything. You still need
445
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:09.559
that human nexus in your internal operations, which is also
446
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:14.279
a fascinating kind of maturation in how we use AI,
447
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:17.559
you know, and I think you can see it happening
448
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.319
with certain companies that kind of again over index with
449
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.680
AI and suddenly realize, actually, we got rid of too
450
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.839
many people now that they have having to hire them
451
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:31.720
back or or they were quote flat footed because you know,
452
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.920
like they they fired people to you know, as a
453
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.759
cost cutting exercise, and realize that AI build costs more
454
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:40.880
than the people that they had, and so suddenly they're
455
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:50.920
hiring them back in because the AI subscriptions.
456
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:50.799
Is definitely, Yeah, it's good for humanity at least at
457
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:53.839
this at this point in the growth of AI that
458
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:56.880
it's not completely replacing us. We can still have jobs
459
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.480
while we figure out how exactly AI fits in.
460
00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:00.359
It exists.
461
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:03.240
Now, let's refine it so that it works for us,
462
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:05.400
you know, we don't work for it.
463
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.680
Yeah, although I did see yesterday, I think I think
464
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:14.279
it was yesterday a meme on on X where they're like, yeah,
465
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.880
you do realize and terminate to one Skyna reached AGI
466
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:24.240
in twenty twenty nine. Okay, okay, you know, and some
467
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:28.920
of the stories that you see about the experimental features
468
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:31.720
of Claude and chat DBT, it doesn't make you think.
469
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.440
Yes, definitely, you know, we don't. We don't have a
470
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:36.119
lot of time left share on. But I want to
471
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.440
talk about one more topic because you know, as a
472
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.440
as a swing trader, a lot of the traders sort
473
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.920
of moved over to the equities market because it's been hot.
474
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.359
When Bitcoin is going down, it seemed like SpaceX launch
475
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:54.640
and the stock market just keeps hitting me all time highs,
476
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.480
which is amazing, and I hope that bitcoin will follow it.
477
00:30:57.880 --> 00:30:59.319
But right now that's been the focus.
478
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:05.759
I believe trustwallet has access to tokenized equities where you
479
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.039
can actually trade with the stocks. Maybe you can touch
480
00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:13.559
on that, and you know how you see the users,
481
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:17.160
you know, if if they're holding their crypto long term
482
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.839
and they but they still want to trade in hot markets.
483
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:23.319
They have access to more than just the digital assets.
484
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:27.319
Yeah, I mean so so these are still digital assets,
485
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:34.640
they're tokenized representations assets. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, so as
486
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:40.160
in the point there was the representations of equity, it's
487
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.920
not it's not actual equity. And regardless that it comes
488
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.400
with a lot of restrictions, there's a lot of you know,
489
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:53.559
guardrails in place with art of the ways include and
490
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:58.960
in particular beat stocks. But yeah, I mean, like it's
491
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:03.039
it's it's another one of those fascinating areas I I I.
492
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:09.640
You know that there's an angle there, which is users
493
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:16.599
need exposure to these assets to either balance or uh
494
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:20.039
well yeah balance or or or or or hedge their
495
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:25.920
position somewhere else. It means you can use those assets
496
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:29.519
to do things like they're they're they're there, you can
497
00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:34.480
deploy them in defy, you can you have them available
498
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.599
in in perps. So there's that whole kind of world
499
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:45.920
that is accessible through crypto or cryptotechnology that's kind of
500
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.240
layered on top of the equities market. What I think
501
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:54.319
is going to be really interesting though, is how the
502
00:32:54.359 --> 00:33:00.480
crypto sector starts to to to to balance the users
503
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:06.519
appetite as the equities themselves start to become more and
504
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:10.640
more available. You know, you've got players in the market
505
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:17.440
that are experimenting with with exactly that that that they're
506
00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:23.599
they're they're taking a bet that actually uses want the
507
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:28.960
equity itself, not not the art of the way, Okay,
508
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:31.960
And and I think that's going to be really interesting
509
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.119
because the thesis with the Art of the Way is
510
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:38.960
the composibility that comes with it being a crypto asset
511
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:44.880
or token. Right. So yeah, that's that's one of those
512
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.720
kind of uh experiments that I like, you can't wait
513
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:50.880
to kind of see pan out.
514
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:52.519
Definitely.
515
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.799
I think it's h We've made it exist and now
516
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:59.799
we just need the volume, liquidity and the tokenization of
517
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:02.799
the entire stock market. To move that technology and upgrade
518
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.079
it and get make it faster and cheaper. We're on
519
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.640
the way, but it's it's something that's been, you know,
520
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:09.480
many years in the works.
521
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:15.199
Yeah, yeah, yes, it has. I mean I think I've
522
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:18.800
been looking at RWAs yeah for I'd say like almost
523
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:20.480
two years. It's been a while.
524
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:22.199
Yeah, definitely.
525
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:26.400
Well we're running out of time, but I would love
526
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:28.519
to give your closing thoughts on you know, I've learned
527
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:30.840
so much about trust while that I didn't even know.
528
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.119
I knew it's one of the top great wallets, but
529
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.800
there's so many functions that that are new, especially these
530
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.280
new integrations, and as you said that AI moves so
531
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:45.039
fast and keeping up is it's a lot of work.
532
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:48.199
But what what would you say to the users that
533
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.960
you know, they're like they already have their crypto stored.
534
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.239
In a wallet, or you know, they they don't.
535
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.559
Realize the potential of everything that you can actually do
536
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:00.440
and and trust wallet in why you think it's such
537
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:01.159
a great product.
538
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:06.639
I think I would I would encourage people to to
539
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:11.440
just play around with with crypto. I mean, that's that's
540
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:15.119
kind of how how I got involved. With it, and
541
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:19.239
I think that still remains the case. You know, it's
542
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:24.480
it's a sector unlike traditional finance. You can't really play
543
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:27.280
around with traditional finance, and and you know, I don't
544
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.480
mean to, I don't mean to kind of minimize things,
545
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:36.360
but there is something just in you know, staking something
546
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.880
and unstaking it, and and you know, just playing around
547
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:45.000
with the infrastructure, you start to understand why there's so
548
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:51.239
much noise around crypto and why people are evangelical about it.
549
00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:54.320
So yeah, I would, I would. I would encourage people
550
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:59.360
to use it, to just use crypto, and I think, trust, well,
551
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:03.960
it is a fantastic venue to do that, because our
552
00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:08.000
engineers are the best, the best of the best. I've
553
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.920
I've had the privilege of working in a few places
554
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:14.880
now and trust all the engineers are amazing and the
555
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:20.280
things that they ship are top notch quality quality first,
556
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.599
and so yeah, I would say that it's a it's
557
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:26.519
a pretty solid environment for you to you know, play around.
558
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.719
And definitely, well, I'm gonna retake a look at it.
559
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.039
I've I've had it on there and but there's so
560
00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:34.719
many new integrations. I'm excited to try out the hyper
561
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:37.599
liquid integration and take a look at the predictions and.
562
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:38.400
All of this stuff.
563
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:42.760
I appreciate your insights into everything going on internally and
564
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.800
globally and where the industry is shifting in your perspective.
565
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:52.239
Really wishing trust well all the best in integrating AI
566
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:57.400
as it AI and blockchain converge and add more value
567
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:59.960
to each other. And I would love to have you
568
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:01.400
back on in the near future. Share up.
569
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:03.760
Thank you, thank you. I'd love to be back on.
570
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:04.199
Thank you.
1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.799
I'm Ashin Addison from the Crypto Coin Show, and today
2
00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:06.599
on Blockchain Interviews, I'm joined with Shiram Kattack, general counsel
3
00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:10.439
at Trust Wallet, the world's leading self custody crypto wallet,
4
00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:13.400
with over two hundred and twenty million downloads across one
5
00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:17.079
hundred plus blockchains. There's a lot to dive into today. Sharram,
6
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welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time.
7
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Thank you, Thank you very much. Pleasure to be on
8
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:23.440
the show.
9
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Yeah, excited to dive into the world of crypto right now.
10
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We're massively expanding and at the same time in a
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bit of a shift in figuring out where to stick
12
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as we continue to grow. I know Trust Wallet from
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00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:40.159
as far back as twenty seventeen being one of the
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best self custody wallets, but now it's expanded into spot trading, PERPS,
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prediction markets, AI agents. I'm sure as well. From where
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you sit and watching the expansion of trust and the wallet,
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00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:59.079
what's the biggest shift that's happened over the last few years.
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Well, I mean, I think over the last few years
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it's it's been more about the technology growing and developing
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and becoming something that users can can readily access and
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and have available to them. You know, we we don't.
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We don't. As a self custody platform, we're very different
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to the centralized exchange, so we don't affect orders, we
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don't execute orders. The model is entirely different. We're self custody,
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and in that respect, it's more about what the user
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using our system as a tool to do what they
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want to do in crypto, and so you can see
28
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that kind of evolution of the user's behavior through platforms
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such as all the self custody wallets, all the DAPs
30
00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:02.200
in our system, the des is and and so forth.
31
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Mm hmm.
32
00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:06.920
Yeah. I love that the ethos has been self custody
33
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:09.680
since the beginning and you continue to grow to hundreds
34
00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:11.159
of millions of users.
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I feel like it's been an uphill battle.
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Not that it's necessarily a direct competition between centralized exchanges
37
00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:22.240
with custody versus the decentralized self custody, but it's always
38
00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:26.560
been harder for self custody. It appears to grow. Do
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00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:28.800
you think there was that struggle with Trustwallet?
40
00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:33.639
Yeah, of course, you know, you have to. It's not
41
00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:37.199
it's not always about walking a fine line. There's there's
42
00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:43.639
also huge sectors. There's huge activities that you're just simply
43
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.719
not allowed to get in get involved in, and you
44
00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:51.199
have to be extremely careful because the stakes are high.
45
00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.960
If you get it wrong, you know, you can get
46
00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:57.000
into a lot of trouble. So you have to be
47
00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.560
very mindful of how you navigate that field.
48
00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:05.879
Definitely, and over the last few years, alongside the legislation,
49
00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:11.360
we've been seeing glimpses of emerging potentially of trad fi
50
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:17.280
and other traditional markets with self custody and decentralized networks.
51
00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:22.159
I know your background was in tradfi, finance, securities, capital
52
00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:25.919
markets before getting into crypto. How do you think that
53
00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.840
your background shapes the way that you see where the
54
00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:33.199
industry and where trust is headed in those two industries merging.
55
00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:37.280
Yeah, thats a really good question. I mean, if you'd
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00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:41.719
ask me this when I first joined got into crypto,
57
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I would have probably given you a completely different answer.
58
00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:49.719
So I got into crypto because I saw firsthand, largely
59
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because I was the only lawyer in the bank that
60
00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.520
I was at who knew anything about crypto at the time,
61
00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:06.599
and they were running a experiment with crypto infrastructure, and
62
00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:08.560
it was this large consortat Team of banks and they
63
00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:14.960
were looking at how crypto infrastructure would it impact a
64
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capital markets transaction. And that's when I realized that as
65
00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:26.000
an infrastructure play, this is the future. So for me,
66
00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.560
it made no sense to like, once you once, once
67
00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.639
you kind of make that decision, it makes no sense
68
00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:32.600
to you know, not explore it. So so so that's
69
00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.399
kind of what brought me into crypto. I was already
70
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:40.439
you know, like involved in crypto and personal capacity, but
71
00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:43.639
that was more kind of you know, speculating with bitcoin
72
00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:50.160
and things like that. Now though, I think my my
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answer might be slightly more nuanced. I think that there's
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00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:57.879
you can see the industry really splitting. One is going
75
00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:01.160
after the infrastructure side, and that's where I think you
76
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.000
you have you can see Tradify coming in. You can
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see the players that Robin Hood and Revolutes and the
78
00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.360
big banks like playing around with the sector in different
79
00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:13.199
ways at this on the speculative edge and also on.
80
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The infrastructure edge. The the other part of crypto which
81
00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.240
has come which has come through is this kind of
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almost doubling down on the counterculture, which was the founding
83
00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:32.040
ethos of crypto. This this concept of okay, well you know,
84
00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:38.199
we want, we want something slightly different. We that's where
85
00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:44.879
the tenets of privacy and self custody really become important
86
00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:48.360
for you to to understand and uphold. And I think
87
00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.079
that's really fascinating because that's where I can see a
88
00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:53.240
lot of the innovation still happening.
89
00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:57.680
Yeah, it is super exciting, and I think a lot
90
00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:01.000
of experimentation need has been done on the on the
91
00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:05.439
privacy front, and we've evolved from just having you know,
92
00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.959
dark coins that were meant for criminals to having encryption,
93
00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:15.920
you know, fully homomorphic encryption or ZK proofs that privacy
94
00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:21.240
used for corporations and enterprises and good guys. I feel
95
00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:25.160
like that's something that has evolved that's a benefit to
96
00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:27.639
in blockchain, to the rest of the world.
97
00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.160
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean the conversations evolved so much,
98
00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.279
Like I remember, I remember the idea of trying to
99
00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:42.639
defend privacy as as somehow immediately making you culpable of, like,
100
00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.160
you know, some sort of criminal activity. And I forget
101
00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:50.079
who there was a big crypto account. I can't I
102
00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:52.399
can't remember who it was exactly now, but they made
103
00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:57.639
the analogy to drawing your curtains in your bedroom and saying, well,
104
00:06:57.639 --> 00:06:59.519
if you draw your curtains, that doesn't mean you're immediately
105
00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:01.920
going in staf being someone behind, you know, in your room.
106
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So and it was just yeah, Now, thankfully we have
107
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a much more mature way of thinking about privacy. And coincidentally,
108
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you know, tradify might might be responsible for that kind
109
00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:21.439
of maturity there, because suddenly people realize, oh, actually, I
110
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don't want all my transactions to be fully visible. I
111
00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:26.879
don't want my my wallet to be in the same
112
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way as you don't want your bank account to be
113
00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.879
fully you know, transparent and visible.
114
00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.759
Definitely, you know, I would love to dive into the
115
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exciting stuff with regards to trading volumes, the actually the
116
00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:43.519
action that's happening in the market, despite sort of a
117
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consolidation and bitcoin and maybe you know, not as high
118
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volumes as we would see in a crazy bull market.
119
00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:53.079
It seems like trustwallet has had like a billion dollars
120
00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:56.720
in volume in perpetuals in a short amount of time.
121
00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:59.959
And this hyper liquid integration which has been super hot
122
00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:01.639
right now, which also follows the.
123
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Sort of decentralized ethos.
124
00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:06.959
Maybe you can touch on the hyper liquid part and
125
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perpetuals and what you guys are seeing right now with
126
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the current market conditions.
127
00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.279
I mean you look like you you you called it
128
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that you know, there's there's a uh consolidation and bitcoin.
129
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I think I think you can say that there's a
130
00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.360
real reflection going on within the industry as to kind
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of where where does the value lie? You know, we're
132
00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:37.240
not some parts of the sector are still narrative driven
133
00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.639
and others are now becoming a little bit more fundamentals
134
00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:42.960
driven or something else. You know that there might be
135
00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:44.759
something else going on as well, because I think I
136
00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:47.320
think one thing you need to kind of accept with
137
00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:51.960
crypto is it's not always obvious what's happening. So so
138
00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.639
when when when you're mixing things that you we still
139
00:08:56.679 --> 00:08:59.279
don't have a full grasp on, like like around the
140
00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:05.919
tokenomic plus narrative plus fundamentals, it's it's still it's still
141
00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:10.360
anyone's guess as to what's really happening with certain assets
142
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:14.679
and certain sectors. The prediction markets is a really interesting one.
143
00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:18.919
It's it's obviously one of those features within our sector
144
00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:26.080
that's proven its market fit. And so you know, we're
145
00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:33.440
seeing continued activity in in in the perpetual space, and
146
00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:36.159
and and yeah, I mean, it's it's it's it's interesting
147
00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:39.240
to see users and their behavior with respect to how
148
00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:43.840
they view these sorts of assets and and maybe you know,
149
00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:47.240
what they're trying to do. We have the whole spectrum
150
00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:51.120
of users who who choose to do what they want
151
00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:59.159
on through the platform, whether that be small small trades
152
00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:04.440
or you know, signals of slightly more sophisticated hedging activity
153
00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:08.639
and things like that. You can see the whole spectrum.
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Yeah, it really seems like a dream integration for trust Wallet.
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Hyper liquid is making a name even more so than
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the centralized exchanges, especially at this time in the market.
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But just overall, it's like that's what the goal has been,
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was to keep it self custody and find a way to.
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Trade without having to go.
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Through the complexities and learn all this extra stuff like
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you would in a centralized experience. I feel like this
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is as close as we're getting to it right now.
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I don't know if it's perfect, but it seems pretty
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good for you guys.
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Yeah, yeah, I think like it's it's like I always
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I always try and like reflect on, like you know,
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kind of what's happening and take taking a slightly more
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academic big picture in mind. Like what I mean by
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that is right now, hyper Liquids in a phase of
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its life where it is myopically focused on one thing
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it just needs to execute, execute, execute this one aspect
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of of of of its chosen kind of field a
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lot of the big DEXes, centralized exchanges, or any product
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that starts its life with one focus tends to do
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quite well. And then as it scales, it needs to
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it needs to think about, you know, things like well, okay,
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how do I make money? How do I pay bills?
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How do I retain users? How do I expand my
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feature set? And that's where I think you can start
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start to lose some of your magic. So hyper Liquids
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on a fascinating journey. You know, it's it's obviously proven
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that it can do things really, really, really well. I
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think that now the next phase of hyper liquids journey
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is going to be even more interesting.
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To watch, definitely, And I feel like you could say
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the same with with trust wallet. You do one thing
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really well, but then there's users want certain feature sets
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and then okay, perbs prediction market, you know, where where
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does the team find that balance of like let's just
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keep adding functions as the narrative changes.
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But yeah, focused on the principles.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should have seen that coming. Yeah,
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so you're right, You're right, it is so I think
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I think, I think, okay, so have you asked me
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this question last year? I think I was really stumbled
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on this one because last year we were we were
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I think, following the everything app thesis, right, so we
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wanted to be all things to all people, and in
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fairness to us, at the time, the thinking was, you know,
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you look around and you see this great bundling. So
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there was the effectively the fat app thesis, right, So
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everything was getting bundled up into one application, one platform,
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and you could do everything you wanted to on that platform.
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And you would point to players like Ali Baba or
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we Chat and say, okay, look look what they're doing.
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Then you'd look at maybe what the strategy behind Google
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and Meta, you know, an Apple. Now I think you're
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seeing this kind of unbundling and then rebundling of certain features.
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So the like take a bank that the different parts
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of the bank are getting unbundled, and you're getting players
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coming in and nibbling very specific niche processes and then
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they're also then saying, Okay, well I can do this,
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but I can actually do a few other kind of
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adjacent things as well, and you can bundle that together.
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So you're getting this weird kind of like consolidation across
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the market and reorganization across the market. And trust Well
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is in exactly the same phase we had. We had
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a shift in CEO recently, so Felix joined in February
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and he's brought a real focus on the product. There's
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just this kind of singular focus on Okay, we need
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to fix the products. And that's I think what you're
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seeing happening with trust Waallet in the market where we
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are just I mean, you know, can'tly describe it any
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other way other than just trying to fix the product
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and then everything else will figure out after.
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Yeah.
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No, I think it's I think it's a great focus.
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You know, obviously product first, and then the image will
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be portrayed through the success of the product itself.
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Hopefully.
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Yeah, fall goes to scale, you know, as the as
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the council, how do you see the hyper liquid integration
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prediction markets? You know, at a global scale, looking at
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the different jurisdictions are there any major issues or are
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there any golden gate areas where you need to focus
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on more than others?
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No, I mean, look, it's it's really difficult, and you
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can see the you can see how painful it is
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just by looking at how all of us in in
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crypto are just tiptoeing around and you know, trying our
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best to navigate very uncertain water. It's I mean, like
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perpetuals is a little bit is that that there's a
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bit a lot more guidance around the perpetuals space than
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there is in the predictions. The predictions thing is is tricky.
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You need to kind of you know, borrow thinking and
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reasoning that that we've now tested in other aspects of crypto,
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and then be mindful of certain things that a regulator
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might look at and be like, well, actually know, this
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is materially different to what happened before, or what happened
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in you know, perpetuals or whatever. So for example, you
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it's it's untested around what what the impact of the
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the way in which you the infrastructure of a predictions
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market itself is untested ground. So yeah, I mean, like
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the it is, it is difficult, and everyone's you know,
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going about it in in it, uh by by exercising
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their best judgment and in good faith. I think that's
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that's kind of how how I look at these things,
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which is you need to you need to approach the
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a novel topic, a a novel product by looking at
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it from the regulator's perspective in good faith and see, okay,
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well what what what would a regulator be concerned about?
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And then try and approach it from that angle.
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Mhm yeah, I like that approach.
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And when you have these great areas of new markets
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completely it's almost like when bitcoin it became, you know,
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when bitcoin started to exist and people were like, there's
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there's no asset classification for this, and like on on
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the legal papers. You know how that's why the bank
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set stayed away because it's like this is a new
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asset class. Prediction markets are almost like that in that
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we haven't been able to bet on you know, there's
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been sports betting for a while, but now it's like
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everything and like you've got to figure out the rules
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making sure there's no insider trading or manipulation and all
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these different stories you're hearing about, you know, people affecting
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the weather while they bet on it and and everything else.
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So yeah, it's trying to manage that is much beyond
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just managing a crypto wallet.
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Yeah yeah, I mean the thing is that, like you know,
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it's it's so we have a slightly lower risk profile
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being being a platform, a self custodical platform. But I
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think I think what's really important here is that and
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and and what I hope the regulates is also you know, see,
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I think I think in some in some instances, the
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regulators don't look at things in this in in this
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way in the following way, and that is you need
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to leave some space. I believe you need to leave
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some space for experimentation. You know, if you look at
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how DeFi is evolved where we are today, DeFi is,
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without doubt a useful technology, Like it is something that
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is being incorporated into traditional finance, and it would never
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have got there. Hyper Liquid wouldn't exist if you didn't
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have people, you know, yoloing a thousand x on the
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doge coin back in the day, like like the mean
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point market. Whatever you want to say about it, it
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did prove the technology, you know, it forced us to
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create a system that could handle that throughput and and
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and I think predictions is in a very similar space.
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You know, people are experimenting in a way, which means
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that the technology is being forced to adapt and being
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forced to self uh, to self regulate, to evolve and
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mature in a meaningful way, and it's becoming a primitive
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You can see it happening, Like you're already seeing people
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looking at prediction markets as lego blocks in terms of
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you know, risk analysis and and and hedging your position
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in on your spot trades. So like, you know, if
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you have a portfolio that's like skewed towards a certain sector,
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you could use prediction markets to see whether or not
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you're you should make any changes to that thinking.
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Yeah.
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No, it's a great point and a funny omen to
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the meme coin trading. It sort of makes me think
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of you know, I don't know if it's Elon Musk's quote,
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but you know he says, first, just make it exist,
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then make it better. In the beginning, it's probably going
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to be bad, but make it exist, uh, And that's
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what happened sort of meme coins, and now it's like legit.
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Yeah, yeah, there's there's another one. There's so Felix my
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Felix my shadow me for saying this, but I have
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heard him say, if you if you're not ashamed of
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your first of your first launch, you're launching too slow. Yeah, like,
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like obviously you know the regulators listening. You know, you
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have to button up, all the legal compliances all all
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buttoned up, but you need to, you need to, you
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need to get the product out to see how the
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market is reacting. And then and then you start to iterate.
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Definitely, And I feel like that's there's been a bit
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of a different approach between the American North American markets
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and the European markets, trying to have too many rules
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and regulations, and that's inhibited the innovation in why the
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financial industry is the greatest in the world in America.
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Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's a that's an interesting one. Like
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I wish so I'm I'm you know, from I've spent
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most of my life in the UK, and I would
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love to be able to come back to you on
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that and defend that region, that part of the world.
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But yeah, I'm not I'm not sure I really understand.
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I mean, I understand what they're doing because you know,
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it's it's like I'm intellectually able to understand it that
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they have a protective positions, right, So they they're they're
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they're overemphasizing on we need to make sure, we need
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to we need to regulate, we need to make sure
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that the people are protected. But it's it's almost taking
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a slightly.
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I mean.
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Yeah, like I would say, it's kind of not not
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patronizing the public, but certainly being a bit too paternalistic.
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah.
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Well, moving forward, there's going to be a lot more
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discussion on the AI front and AI agents. That it's
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a blockchain, but now that AI agents can have their
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own wallets and make transactions on people's behalf, it's adding
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in more complexities to to the legal side.
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As well, which you've involved in.
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Can you touch on trust wallets, integration with regards to
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AI agents payments and where do you see that going?
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So yeah, I mean, look like AI agents, it's it's
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difficult to it's difficult that there's two things right now
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to consider. One is obviously the there are some real
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issues with how you can deploy an agent, uh, with
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the functionality that you that you may you know, wish
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to have in a self custody environment. There there's some
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real there's some real difficult uh regulations that you have
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to kind of navigate. So so you're going to find
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the functionality more in in in the central logic exchanges
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and in the regulated entities. The other thing which I
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think is really interesting that's coming through is the product
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fit and just whether or not there is uptake. I
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think those two factors, once we start getting a handle
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on how those are panning out, you'll really start to see, Okay,
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what is is this something that uses want? Yeah?
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Yeah, No, it's a great point because it's the hot
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topic right now and it's the narrative. But will it
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Will it stick or will it be sort of like
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n f T s that you know, don't have as
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much value as in all of the different aspects as
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you thought they would when they first came out. We're
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already seeing integrations in these regulated entities like robin Hood.
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You know it's popping up on my phone trade your
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agent will trade. I haven't. I haven't tried it yet.
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I'm like, I've been busy. I don't know how many
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people are actually gonna what percentage of people are actually
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going to have their AI agents trading for them versus
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just having a passive portfolio that maybe it rebalances once
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a year like their financial advisor would. Maybe they're day
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trading with these AI agents. No one really knows at
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this point. And you know, that's another thing, as we
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talked about in adding more functions, you know, is this
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something that trust while it actually sees everyone's going to
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be using this, we need to add this Or should
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we focus on the purpse and and having that great
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experience and focusing on that integration.
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There's so many things to focus on.
395
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.119
Yeah, yeah, so I think I think in this instance,
396
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:07.759
the you know, the AI piece is something which will eventually,
397
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:13.200
once it's mature enough, feed into every feature set. The
398
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:17.480
way that I look at it is you've got different verticals,
399
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:23.519
so you can have DeFi, you can have payments, you
400
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:31.400
can have adapts, you can have you know, different different verticals.
401
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:36.759
Right now, AI is spoken about as another vertical, but
402
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:39.119
actually it's a horizontal. It sits across all of them,
403
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.079
and I think that you kind of need to have
404
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:45.319
skin in the game to understand how it would sit
405
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:50.039
across all your features, Otherwise otherwise it'll be disjointed. It'll
406
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:54.039
almost feel like you have two apps, and so you
407
00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.319
don't want that, so you have to you have to
408
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:59.799
think about it, you have to put some resources into it,
409
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:03.079
and kind of I think a reflection on how trust
410
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:05.960
Well is running it. So we have our principal lines
411
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.319
of business. As we said, we are focusing on the product.
412
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:12.920
So the principal lines are the ones that we are
413
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.480
doubling down on and we're making sure we've we've ironed
414
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.759
out everything and we're at the real you know, forefront
415
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.039
of the industry.
416
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:22.920
But you can't.
417
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.480
Afford to get left behind in the AI race, so
418
00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:28.319
you need to have some R and D going on
419
00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:30.400
there too, And that's a.
420
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.720
Whole different monster. It's not just integrating purpose. It's like
421
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:37.920
this affects every function of an application.
422
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.680
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So so that's where you can see
423
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.680
the agent kit and you know, things like that. So
424
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.319
at the minute, it's it's a little bit more developer focused.
425
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.480
It's about externalizing the wallet APIs so that the developers
426
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:54.079
can do things and make things available to our users.
427
00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:58.359
I think what's really fascinating, and I think you know
428
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.200
that the AI sector is talking about this ad infinite
429
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:08.480
and is how AI changes your internal processes. So you know,
430
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:12.720
we are focused on on that as well. We're looking
431
00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:16.119
at how AI can be embedded within our operations and
432
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.720
infrastructure and how that changes the way that we work,
433
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.319
and that too, is a fascinating journey, right because like
434
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.039
in the beginning, like like you know, if if we
435
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:31.160
just like AI is like speed running every sector, it's
436
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:34.720
it's it's it's astonishing, and you know, like every day
437
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.559
things are changing in AI to the point where like
438
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:40.880
like if you look at something in the morning, you're like, Okay, cool,
439
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.799
that sounds like a cool idea, and you start trying
440
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:45.799
to figure it out. Like literally, by the end of
441
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:50.319
the day it's old and something news happening and you're
442
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:55.200
just like okay. But I think there's also been a
443
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:57.799
slight kind of realization and wake up call in that
444
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:03.079
AI is not the answer to everything. You still need
445
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:09.559
that human nexus in your internal operations, which is also
446
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:14.279
a fascinating kind of maturation in how we use AI,
447
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:17.559
you know, and I think you can see it happening
448
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.319
with certain companies that kind of again over index with
449
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.680
AI and suddenly realize, actually, we got rid of too
450
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.839
many people now that they have having to hire them
451
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:31.720
back or or they were quote flat footed because you know,
452
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.920
like they they fired people to you know, as a
453
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.759
cost cutting exercise, and realize that AI build costs more
454
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:40.880
than the people that they had, and so suddenly they're
455
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:50.920
hiring them back in because the AI subscriptions.
456
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:50.799
Is definitely, Yeah, it's good for humanity at least at
457
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:53.839
this at this point in the growth of AI that
458
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:56.880
it's not completely replacing us. We can still have jobs
459
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.480
while we figure out how exactly AI fits in.
460
00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:00.359
It exists.
461
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:03.240
Now, let's refine it so that it works for us,
462
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:05.400
you know, we don't work for it.
463
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.680
Yeah, although I did see yesterday, I think I think
464
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:14.279
it was yesterday a meme on on X where they're like, yeah,
465
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.880
you do realize and terminate to one Skyna reached AGI
466
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:24.240
in twenty twenty nine. Okay, okay, you know, and some
467
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:28.920
of the stories that you see about the experimental features
468
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:31.720
of Claude and chat DBT, it doesn't make you think.
469
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.440
Yes, definitely, you know, we don't. We don't have a
470
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:36.119
lot of time left share on. But I want to
471
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.440
talk about one more topic because you know, as a
472
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.440
as a swing trader, a lot of the traders sort
473
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.920
of moved over to the equities market because it's been hot.
474
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.359
When Bitcoin is going down, it seemed like SpaceX launch
475
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:54.640
and the stock market just keeps hitting me all time highs,
476
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.480
which is amazing, and I hope that bitcoin will follow it.
477
00:30:57.880 --> 00:30:59.319
But right now that's been the focus.
478
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:05.759
I believe trustwallet has access to tokenized equities where you
479
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.039
can actually trade with the stocks. Maybe you can touch
480
00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:13.559
on that, and you know how you see the users,
481
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:17.160
you know, if if they're holding their crypto long term
482
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.839
and they but they still want to trade in hot markets.
483
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:23.319
They have access to more than just the digital assets.
484
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:27.319
Yeah, I mean so so these are still digital assets,
485
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:34.640
they're tokenized representations assets. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, so as
486
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:40.160
in the point there was the representations of equity, it's
487
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.920
not it's not actual equity. And regardless that it comes
488
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.400
with a lot of restrictions, there's a lot of you know,
489
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:53.559
guardrails in place with art of the ways include and
490
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:58.960
in particular beat stocks. But yeah, I mean, like it's
491
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:03.039
it's it's another one of those fascinating areas I I I.
492
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:09.640
You know that there's an angle there, which is users
493
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:16.599
need exposure to these assets to either balance or uh
494
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:20.039
well yeah balance or or or or or hedge their
495
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:25.920
position somewhere else. It means you can use those assets
496
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:29.519
to do things like they're they're they're there, you can
497
00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:34.480
deploy them in defy, you can you have them available
498
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.599
in in perps. So there's that whole kind of world
499
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:45.920
that is accessible through crypto or cryptotechnology that's kind of
500
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.240
layered on top of the equities market. What I think
501
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:54.319
is going to be really interesting though, is how the
502
00:32:54.359 --> 00:33:00.480
crypto sector starts to to to to balance the users
503
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:06.519
appetite as the equities themselves start to become more and
504
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:10.640
more available. You know, you've got players in the market
505
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:17.440
that are experimenting with with exactly that that that they're
506
00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:23.599
they're they're taking a bet that actually uses want the
507
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:28.960
equity itself, not not the art of the way, Okay,
508
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:31.960
And and I think that's going to be really interesting
509
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.119
because the thesis with the Art of the Way is
510
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:38.960
the composibility that comes with it being a crypto asset
511
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:44.880
or token. Right. So yeah, that's that's one of those
512
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.720
kind of uh experiments that I like, you can't wait
513
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:50.880
to kind of see pan out.
514
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:52.519
Definitely.
515
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.799
I think it's h We've made it exist and now
516
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:59.799
we just need the volume, liquidity and the tokenization of
517
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:02.799
the entire stock market. To move that technology and upgrade
518
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.079
it and get make it faster and cheaper. We're on
519
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.640
the way, but it's it's something that's been, you know,
520
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:09.480
many years in the works.
521
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:15.199
Yeah, yeah, yes, it has. I mean I think I've
522
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:18.800
been looking at RWAs yeah for I'd say like almost
523
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:20.480
two years. It's been a while.
524
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:22.199
Yeah, definitely.
525
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:26.400
Well we're running out of time, but I would love
526
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:28.519
to give your closing thoughts on you know, I've learned
527
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:30.840
so much about trust while that I didn't even know.
528
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.119
I knew it's one of the top great wallets, but
529
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.800
there's so many functions that that are new, especially these
530
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.280
new integrations, and as you said that AI moves so
531
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:45.039
fast and keeping up is it's a lot of work.
532
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:48.199
But what what would you say to the users that
533
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.960
you know, they're like they already have their crypto stored.
534
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.239
In a wallet, or you know, they they don't.
535
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.559
Realize the potential of everything that you can actually do
536
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:00.440
and and trust wallet in why you think it's such
537
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:01.159
a great product.
538
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:06.639
I think I would I would encourage people to to
539
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:11.440
just play around with with crypto. I mean, that's that's
540
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:15.119
kind of how how I got involved. With it, and
541
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:19.239
I think that still remains the case. You know, it's
542
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:24.480
it's a sector unlike traditional finance. You can't really play
543
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:27.280
around with traditional finance, and and you know, I don't
544
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.480
mean to, I don't mean to kind of minimize things,
545
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:36.360
but there is something just in you know, staking something
546
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.880
and unstaking it, and and you know, just playing around
547
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:45.000
with the infrastructure, you start to understand why there's so
548
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:51.239
much noise around crypto and why people are evangelical about it.
549
00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:54.320
So yeah, I would, I would. I would encourage people
550
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:59.360
to use it, to just use crypto, and I think, trust, well,
551
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:03.960
it is a fantastic venue to do that, because our
552
00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:08.000
engineers are the best, the best of the best. I've
553
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.920
I've had the privilege of working in a few places
554
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:14.880
now and trust all the engineers are amazing and the
555
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:20.280
things that they ship are top notch quality quality first,
556
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.599
and so yeah, I would say that it's a it's
557
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:26.519
a pretty solid environment for you to you know, play around.
558
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.719
And definitely, well, I'm gonna retake a look at it.
559
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.039
I've I've had it on there and but there's so
560
00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:34.719
many new integrations. I'm excited to try out the hyper
561
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:37.599
liquid integration and take a look at the predictions and.
562
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:38.400
All of this stuff.
563
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:42.760
I appreciate your insights into everything going on internally and
564
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.800
globally and where the industry is shifting in your perspective.
565
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:52.239
Really wishing trust well all the best in integrating AI
566
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:57.400
as it AI and blockchain converge and add more value
567
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:59.960
to each other. And I would love to have you
568
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:01.400
back on in the near future. Share up.
569
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:03.760
Thank you, thank you. I'd love to be back on.
570
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:04.199
Thank you.
