S13E2: SHOT Show Shenanigans with John Correia, Adam Winch, and Brian Hill

WEBVTT
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And welcome to the Concealed Carry
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Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network, brought to you by HK.
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Today is Friday, January 23rd, 2026, as of the recording of this episode.
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And I'm your host, Riley Bowman.
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And today's a special episode, I'm happy to drop for you all.
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We actually are just at the tail end of SHOT Show, just wrapped up today,
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and we had a great time. So we're actually going to be releasing over the next
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few weeks some episodes recorded during SHOT Show.
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We did several episodes at the Heckler & Koch booth, as well as one in the CCW Safe booth.
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We have a bunch of great guests lined up, and today's episode actually features
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John Correa of Active Self-Protection, Adam Winch of Defenders USA,
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and Brian Hill of The Complete Combatant.
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Today's episode is sponsored by Heckler & Koch.
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Fine makers of the best guns. These are the guns we carry and trust to defend
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our lives with and those we love. And we hope you will too.
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We're thankful to HK for allowing us to make use quite a bit.
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We spent several hours in their booth over the course of the week recording podcast episodes.
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And I appreciate all their support of the Concealed Carry Podcast.
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And if you wouldn't mind, if you can, supporting them. That helps us out a lot.
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Thank you for tuning in to this episode today. I enjoyed a great chat over a
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variety of topics, actually, with John, Adam, and Brian.
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We are actually all brand ambassadors
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of HK and are honored to have that privilege of representing them.
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And it was a lot of fun to talk to these fine individuals whom I've enjoyed
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getting to know over the years and train with and share the range with.
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And they are all masters of their respective crafts.
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So I hope you'll enjoy tuning in and listening to this episode.
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And we'll catch you on the flip side.
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All right, everyone, we're here at SHOT Show 2026. I'm Riley Bowman,
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host of the Concealed Carry podcast, and I am thrilled to be surrounded by friends here.
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We've got John Correa from Active Self-Protection, and we've got Adam Winch from Defenders USA.
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Super excited to have them. And we've got Brian Hill of The Complete Combatant.
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And you guys have known you for a lot of years.
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The one thing that is bringing us together at this event is we're all HK Brand Ambassadors.
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You guys are spending time working in the booth and meeting and greeting and shaking hands.
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And I thought this would be a great opportunity to sit down and have a little
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roundtable discussion with you guys. So that's the context.
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It's only like two hours into the show. But real quick, anything you've seen?
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Well, you guys probably haven't gotten around too much. But I got a question for you guys.
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Anything you've seen just in the first two hours walking around the show that
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you're like, oh, that was kind of interesting?
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Well, not walking around the show floor yet. Yesterday at Range Day,
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I saw a really cool 3D-printed suppressor with a different way of doing things
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from ambient arms. I don't have any relationship with them.
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But as opposed to flow-through suppressors, theirs actually uses a Venturi effect
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and sucks external air in as the bullet passes.
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And I'm like, your suppressor literally sucks.
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It literally sucks. And it's cool to the touch. Like you can dump a whole mag through it.
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I saw your short or real on that. I was like, dude, this is amazing.
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And hearing safe with 5.56. And I was like, all right, that's pretty cool.
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So that to me feels, I mean, obviously, they've been developing it for a long time, but.
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The effects of the changes in the NFA registry is, I'm like, gives me.
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I will give you dollars, you give me that, and I will put the paperwork through today.
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I think from what I'm seeing and observing, we're seeing even more manufacturers,
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like normally just firearms manufacturers that are getting into that suppressor
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manufacturing game as well.
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I think we're just starting to see the year of the suppressor,
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perhaps. So we'll see as things continue on, and particularly as some court
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cases make their way through.
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I mean, it might even get more friendly for those of us that would like to add
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more cans to the collection.
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Well, and I think a lot of people's hesitancy is not only – I don't think the
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$200 stamp is the big thing, but I hate paying for it. I just hate it. It's just annoying.
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Yeah, it's annoying, yes. And the principle of the matter.
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And the principle of the matter. So that's gone, and the fact that you file
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them electronically and they come back now in a day or two.
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So it's not, you know, oh, I buy it and nine months from now I get it. Yes.
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It shows right up, and I can go pick it up, and that's great.
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That makes it a whole lot more accessible, I think.
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The concealedcarry.com crew went to dinner with a Norwegian friend of ours last
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night. We were having the conversation of suppressors last night.
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Yeah, but you buy suppressors in Norway over the counter at the hardware store.
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He made this comparison. He said, well, I just hand a couple hundred dollars
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to my six-year-old son, and he'd go down to the store and buy a suppressor for me.
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And I'm like, that's just not fair. More free than America.
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So hopefully that day is coming. Adam, you're really like, you and Brian too,
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killing it here, working in the HK booth and at the range day yesterday,
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which we really appreciate you guys representing the brand so well.
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So you're probably not getting around as much, but what would you like to say about,
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New stuff this year from HK. How about that VP9X?
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Yeah, I like it. It's really, to me, about the same size as the old VP9. Pretty much, yeah.
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I like it. I still like the F just because I like that extra length to it.
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But it ran like a VP9. It ran solid as can be.
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People seemed to love it yesterday. They seemed to, as I was at the table,
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they had a couple of the Ks out there. So for those of you who don't know, the Ks were the compact.
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It seemed like when they had the choice between the X and the K,
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they went to the X almost every time.
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So people liked it, and it worked well. And like you said, it's the OG.
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The OG form factor, just bringing all those A1s features across to that,
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which I think is – I mean, we expected that to come eventually.
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But I'm like you where I've got the F slide now on my K frame.
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So it's the opposite of what they're doing. It's the XL.
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Because I'm all about that. I like the longer slide, but carrying concealed,
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you know, the K just works so well in that context.
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And it shoots really well in that configuration.
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I don't know whether, you know, that's, like, okay to say as a brand ambassador,
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you know, mixing parts like you, you know. They work.
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I think we're all guilty of it. Yeah, I think so.
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I truly enjoy the finger grooves of the old VP9. Oh, yeah? I love those.
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They never, I mean, it wasn't an issue for me. Yeah. But it makes sense,
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I think. We've seen other brands that have,
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deleted finger grooves and things and they were the.
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Hotness for a bit
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It works yeah works for more shooters and more hands when
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we go to just a front yeah straight front strap so yeah
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good stuff brian anything you want to share but just kind
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of kicking off the show here uh we ran the rifles yesterday suppressed so we
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had the uh a4 and 556 and 762 and i gotta tell you i've never seen a 762 run
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for eight hours without lubrication with no failures yeah piston gun it was
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incredible It was just incredible.
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The suppressor was so hot, it burned a hole in the table.
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And the gun just kept running and running. And it's always been a problem in
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that platform to run 7.62.
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And that gun is exceptional. And it's got a really cool impulse to it.
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It's soft. It's shootable.
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It's soft. It's almost like a little bit hot 5.56 on a 7.62. That's awesome. Yeah.
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Thank you for that report. I didn't get the chance to get down there to the
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rifles or shoot any of those, including suppressed.
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But it looked like you had a great time. A lot of people were lining up to try
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the rifles yesterday, so good stuff.
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Well, let's shift gears a little bit. I'm going to dig back into your lives. Oh, boy.
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Yeah, we're going to go deep here.
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What would you say, John? I mean, because here now, how many years are you into
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active self-protection as a business?
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I incorporated the business in 2011. So I started teaching handgun classes just
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as an NRA certified instructor 15 years ago now.
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15 years, right? Cool.
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It's grown a little since then.
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Yeah, absolutely has. You've done fantastic. it's been wonderful to see my friends
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grow their businesses, grow their presence online, grow, you know,
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the, the, uh, impact that you guys are having on people out there,
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uh, in a variety of different capacities.
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What would you say is a defining moment for you in your life that kind of,
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that if you were to go back and go, yeah, defining moment that led me to where
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I am right now today, doing what you're doing.
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Oh gosh, I was going to go deep, didn't I?
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Yeah, there's, uh, there's several of them. I think, um,
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I didn't have that big thing where a lot of people get into self-defense because
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they got mugged or something bad happened to them, so then they,
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man, I'm not going to have that happen again.
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Me, it was more, I was actually working retail management and selling video
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games for a living, and the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 came out,
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and other managers were getting mugged, and I was like, not me, not me.
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So I started carrying because I was like, no, man, that's not going to happen to me.
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And then I bought the wrong gun, and I put it in the wrong holster,
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and I loaded it with the wrong ammo and carried it as a lucky rabbit's foot
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for a while and thankfully didn't have to use it.
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But, you know, there was a big thing that my wife was raised in,
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we were both raised in California.
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I was raised hunting. She was raised
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no guns. And so she wasn't real happy with a gun in the house at all.
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Any guns in the house. Like, you know, now my wife, she can out shoot probably
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90% of people. So, yeah, but yeah, literally when we left here,
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she's like, okay, is the shotgun loaded?
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Is this right? Is my gun in the safe? Blah, blah, blah, blah,
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blah. So she knows her things.
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And she's, but she said to me, she said, she said, I'm worried that the danger
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of that outweighs its value.
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And that was a big conversation we had. And I really honored that.
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And, you know, my wife, I don't know about you guys, but the Holy Spirit,
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unfortunately speaks in my wife's voice an awful lot. speaks.
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I get that.
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Sounds like her. Too dang much. Makes me mad. And so I was like,
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no, that's a valid concern. And so it's on me that the value of this has to
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exceed the cost, has to exceed the risk of it.
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And so that's why I started training. That's why I started training as a student.
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And so that was a watershed moment because I said, okay, I really value that,
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but I'm going to have to invest some time and some money in training then.
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I had started investing some time and money in martial arts with my son.
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At the time. And she was like, I understand, you know, we got to pay our bills.
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Okay, I get it. So that's honestly why I started active self-protection because
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I wanted to train, but I didn't have enough money to train.
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And so I started teaching a little bit so that I could make a few bucks so that
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I could go to class and write up my ammo. So that was that conversation with
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my wife. Very important.
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Wow. I appreciate you sharing that with me. I don't think you've gone into that
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level of detail, you know, with me personally sharing some of that story.
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So that's, That's awesome to hear.
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Same question for you, Adam. Defining moment that led you to where you are today,
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doing what you're doing right now.
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You know, there's a couple of
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defining moments. Really, it was a trickle effect that was my dad's fault.
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So my dad is a missionary, right? I grew up as a missionary kid in Africa.
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And I saw him start churches, start Bible schools, and just have a slow but
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consistent methodical life.
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Effect on people's lives, right? Changing lives. It was changing cultures,
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changing all sorts of things.
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And I admired how he had an educator's heart and his influence just made people's
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lives better and better and better, both from Africa.
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And then he went to the middle or to Russia and others after perestroika or the wall fell down.
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And then so later I thought I was going to be called into the ministry like
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my dad, went to Bible school.
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God made it very, very clear. You are not called to preach. You are definitely not called to preach.
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Oh, we're going to have some talk about the fact that you are in ministry.
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So, and I was so grateful, right?
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I was instantaneously happy and the Lord gave me something else.
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I won't say it on camera. He said, go do this. So I did.
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And then later, as I became a soldier and then later a police officer,
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I started seeing so many victims of crime to the point where I sat and watched
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over and over on some arrest or some violent scene where if these people had
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just known how to defend themselves, knowing the things I know,
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they would never be here in the first place, right?
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If they just knew some basic situation awareness, some basic self-defense mechanisms
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or some de-escalation, or even how to use a weapon to defend themselves as a tool.
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So I kept griping about it. People don't know what we know. And finally,
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somebody very important to me challenged me, why don't you do something about it?
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Huh? Watershed moment. Then as I started slowly began teaching,
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I too kept becoming, because I enjoyed fighting and I enjoyed going after bad people, right?
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They like to fight Sometimes I kept becoming involved in things that were a
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bit dangerous to the point of lethal type things, or I became the victim as
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they would attack, right?
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And I just kept going, okay, people need to know this. I need to grow my own defensiveness.
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Other people need to. And I suddenly realized I had unwittingly gone into the
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ministry of teaching people how to grow their own defensiveness.
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And so there was some watershed moments that built up to it.
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But then it became a ministry to where both as a business and ministry,
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help people learn how to defend themselves.
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It's far beyond the gun. It's much more than that. but you use the gun to now
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ultimately reach people and touch people's lives in bigger ways defensively
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than just shooting and so that's kind of where it came from yeah awesome i appreciate
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you sharing that as well brian your turn same question.
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I think for me, the big difference in my life was at about 13,
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I had a real choice growing up in a very abusive household.
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I could either become a perpetrator or a protector.
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And I needed some discipline. I needed some structure. I was in a lot of trouble,
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and it wasn't being applied at home.
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There was no real teaching in that. And I had a choice to make,
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and I could feel it very clearly.
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Luckily for me, I had three or four good men that set an example in my life
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and became mentors, and therefore saved my young life. and I realized that I
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never wanted to perpetrate that again, but I also had to do more than that.
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I had to save the next generation.
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I had to help the next group. And that was very important to me to teach and
00:14:49.476 --> 00:14:52.356
advocate for other people's success. I didn't realize it at the time.
00:14:52.356 --> 00:14:53.636
I chose a martial career.
00:14:53.916 --> 00:14:59.236
I taught all sorts of martial arts every generation, every decade from Wing
00:14:59.236 --> 00:15:04.656
Chun Kung Fu to Taekwondo to karate to kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, the whole thing.
00:15:05.776 --> 00:15:10.016
And that was my choice is to advocate for other people's success so that that
00:15:10.016 --> 00:15:13.796
young person or that older person that never had anybody in their corner,
00:15:13.976 --> 00:15:17.776
that didn't get a good mentor like mine, would have somebody that cared about
00:15:17.776 --> 00:15:18.996
them and could make a difference.
00:15:19.136 --> 00:15:22.696
And it's been my great joy, especially in this industry, to meet fine people.
00:15:23.396 --> 00:15:27.596
That's their only concern, is they want people to get better and they want them to grow.
00:15:27.616 --> 00:15:31.396
Because a lot of our clients are suffering from post-traumatic problems.
00:15:31.716 --> 00:15:32.936
They've already had the violence.
00:15:33.456 --> 00:15:36.816
They'd like to walk the world not only as a survivor, but
00:15:36.816 --> 00:15:39.616
as somebody who's gained their true strength back and they're
00:15:39.616 --> 00:15:42.436
they're free to do so and the work that
00:15:42.436 --> 00:15:47.236
we do helps them get to that point and it's very rewarding and I think we leave
00:15:47.236 --> 00:15:51.956
the world a better place if we do our jobs well so it's a humbling task and
00:15:51.956 --> 00:15:55.896
I often don't feel quite up to it but continue to grow continue to try to be
00:15:55.896 --> 00:15:59.616
a better person and it's always our quest yeah absolutely,
00:16:00.571 --> 00:16:03.831
Well, since I put you guys in the hot seat, here's my response as well.
00:16:03.931 --> 00:16:09.231
And that would be that kind of, I guess, the term has been well used here.
00:16:09.331 --> 00:16:14.371
The watershed moments in my life, I think of two. Not all that dissimilar from you.
00:16:15.131 --> 00:16:21.211
That I remember when we were expecting my first child, my son, my oldest son.
00:16:23.011 --> 00:16:27.031
And that was sort of the first time I was like, you know, up to that point in
00:16:27.031 --> 00:16:31.971
my life, we lived in a nice community. I mean, their crime was relatively low.
00:16:32.111 --> 00:16:36.351
It wasn't on my radar so much as, hey, I got to be prepared for something violent
00:16:36.351 --> 00:16:38.271
that potentially happened to me and my wife.
00:16:38.691 --> 00:16:41.111
But up to that point, it was like, you know, I could take care of myself.
00:16:41.311 --> 00:16:44.231
Okay. My wife can probably, I mean, she's no wimp.
00:16:44.471 --> 00:16:48.611
You know, she doesn't back down, you know, or, you know, she takes care of herself real well.
00:16:48.691 --> 00:16:53.311
And so, but now it's like, oh, we're bringing this person into the world.
00:16:54.291 --> 00:16:59.611
And he can't, you know, he can do nothing of his own, at least as a baby, right?
00:16:59.731 --> 00:17:04.231
So it was like, man, I would not be able to live with myself if something happened
00:17:04.231 --> 00:17:08.071
to him, you know, and I was unable to properly defend him.
00:17:08.351 --> 00:17:13.071
And so that was like the impetus for me to go and, you know,
00:17:13.171 --> 00:17:16.371
I owned a pistol at the time, but it was like, okay, well, I mean,
00:17:16.531 --> 00:17:17.471
I want to carry it legally.
00:17:17.531 --> 00:17:22.011
So I had to go do the class thing, get a permit, you know, all that.
00:17:22.843 --> 00:17:29.323
A few years later, and much like you, it was a lucky rabbit's foot. I grew up in a...
00:17:29.323 --> 00:17:33.043
Derpist day. The derp in me honors and recognizes the derp in me.
00:17:33.263 --> 00:17:37.683
Derp knows derp. We recognize one another. We've all probably been there at
00:17:37.683 --> 00:17:39.083
some point in one shape or form.
00:17:39.443 --> 00:17:45.263
But I grew up in a more rural type area and community and shooting and hunting
00:17:45.263 --> 00:17:46.303
and all that was very common.
00:17:46.463 --> 00:17:50.883
So, of course, like other people we've probably interacted with over the years,
00:17:51.043 --> 00:17:54.883
like, oh, I know how to shoot. So I thought I knew what I needed to know.
00:17:55.323 --> 00:17:59.083
But it wasn't until a few years later when I decided to become a reserve cop
00:17:59.083 --> 00:18:07.183
that I attended my first post-LE Academy pistol training experience.
00:18:07.303 --> 00:18:14.643
And going through 80 hours of handgun training, even though that was post-LE
00:18:14.643 --> 00:18:18.463
standard fair stuff, it was still like, whoa.
00:18:18.583 --> 00:18:20.243
Still way better than most people get.
00:18:20.743 --> 00:18:25.863
So that opened my eyes. And it was shortly after that that I started pursuing additional training.
00:18:26.043 --> 00:18:29.023
And then, of course, became an instructor and doing much like you,
00:18:29.143 --> 00:18:31.103
teaching classes and stuff.
00:18:31.283 --> 00:18:34.803
And so that was kind of the two things was that initial recognition of I got
00:18:34.803 --> 00:18:39.923
a little one to defend. And then, oh, there's a whole world of things I thought
00:18:39.923 --> 00:18:42.383
I knew and I don't and getting that training.
00:18:42.603 --> 00:18:47.463
So that's kind of what I wanted to shift to next is what was the first training
00:18:47.463 --> 00:18:48.363
class you ever took, John?
00:18:49.223 --> 00:18:53.823
Well, I mean, the first firearms training class I ever took was my Arizona concealed
00:18:53.823 --> 00:18:55.383
carry class. I grew up hunting.
00:18:55.643 --> 00:18:58.423
I grew up shooting a little bit. So I knew the rules of safe firearms handling.
00:18:58.523 --> 00:19:00.043
My grandpa beat those into me when I was a kid.
00:19:01.383 --> 00:19:03.643
And then I did –
00:19:05.145 --> 00:19:09.245
There was a local company to me in Phoenix. So the crazy part of Phoenix,
00:19:09.325 --> 00:19:11.565
Arizona is you could shoot competition shooting.
00:19:11.565 --> 00:19:12.665
Seven days a week. Yeah.
00:19:13.005 --> 00:19:13.345
Every day.
00:19:13.625 --> 00:19:18.725
Every day. Yeah. I didn't know that at the time. Right. So, but because of my
00:19:18.725 --> 00:19:22.165
martial arts connections, you know, it's six degrees of Kevin Bacon.
00:19:22.385 --> 00:19:24.705
You know, like, you know, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy.
00:19:25.185 --> 00:19:29.525
That there was a company, it's a local company that was putting on like basically
00:19:29.525 --> 00:19:31.525
a defensive 150 handgun class.
00:19:32.125 --> 00:19:34.305
And uh i still catch facebook
00:19:34.305 --> 00:19:38.765
Memories from that now that i think my my that was my first serious class which
00:19:38.765 --> 00:19:44.405
was uh well and i talk about that that's after like i took my nra instructor
00:19:44.405 --> 00:19:47.385
certifications in 2011 those things and those were good classes.
00:19:47.385 --> 00:19:52.165
Actually my nra training counselor mike abramovich was really fantastic set
00:19:52.165 --> 00:19:55.805
me on a good course to be a learner and not everybody has that experience you
00:19:55.805 --> 00:19:59.045
know a lot of a lot of folks in their nra training classes are like you know Now it's Fudville.
00:19:59.605 --> 00:20:02.165
Now, Mike Abramovich was a great dude. He's retired now.
00:20:03.085 --> 00:20:04.925
I know that name. I've seen him pop up.
00:20:04.965 --> 00:20:11.285
Yeah, man. He's a really good TC. He was regional for a long time and just really
00:20:11.285 --> 00:20:13.445
big on teaching and teaching well. Yeah.
00:20:14.057 --> 00:20:17.017
And teaching teachers so uh then this
00:20:17.017 --> 00:20:19.897
company called latent force did this basically defensive 150 and
00:20:19.897 --> 00:20:23.197
that was probably the first time that i had stood on a line and
00:20:23.197 --> 00:20:26.077
wasn't one of the better
00:20:26.077 --> 00:20:31.277
shooters around like i had some real things to learn because some of those dudes
00:20:31.277 --> 00:20:36.177
could shoot um now i look back at it today and i go you know if i stood on that
00:20:36.177 --> 00:20:39.997
same line i would be probably head and shoulders better than than everyone else
00:20:39.997 --> 00:20:42.577
but i sure wasn't at the time And that really taught me, oh,
00:20:42.977 --> 00:20:44.057
well, there's a lot more here.
00:20:44.237 --> 00:20:46.757
Okay, let's get after that. I can do that.
00:20:47.337 --> 00:20:51.677
Had the same thing happen 2017. I took Mike Seeklander's firearms instructor
00:20:51.677 --> 00:20:56.377
development class, FIDC in 17 with him and Rich Brown.
00:20:56.637 --> 00:20:59.357
That's a good foundation to further build upon.
00:20:59.597 --> 00:21:03.437
Well, and it wasn't, I mean, okay, Mike Seeklander's a world champion, right?
00:21:03.557 --> 00:21:07.117
Like, dude's a crazy shooter and Rich is no slouch. but
00:21:07.117 --> 00:21:10.057
the the cops that was being hosted by las cruces
00:21:10.057 --> 00:21:16.777
pd and those we stood on the line and um yeah so their training sergeant is
00:21:16.777 --> 00:21:23.357
a beretta is a wilson combat sponsored shooter yeah uh pat doyle yeah and so
00:21:23.357 --> 00:21:27.757
and pat you know these dudes step up and pat's about this wide across the shoulders
00:21:27.757 --> 00:21:29.917
first of all he's built like you know and only
00:21:29.917 --> 00:21:30.737
A tall yeah.
00:21:30.737 --> 00:21:35.777
But dude can and he had his dudes out there on the line and i get out there
00:21:35.777 --> 00:21:39.957
and these dudes start burning it down they can shoot like and all of a sudden
00:21:39.957 --> 00:21:43.577
i'm looking around going i thought i was a pretty good shooter holy heck man
00:21:43.577 --> 00:21:47.877
these guys i i got some work to do here so those have been there's been a couple of those yeah
00:21:47.877 --> 00:21:52.717
That's awesome i appreciate you sharing that i you know i i've taken a class
00:21:52.717 --> 00:21:56.997
or two with mike over the years and uh and that's how i got to meet pat he came
00:21:56.997 --> 00:21:59.157
to help with the class and i'm like oh.
00:21:59.157 --> 00:22:02.897
I consider pat a friend and he's just a great guy the funny the funny part pat
00:22:02.897 --> 00:22:08.317
doyle story is they do some teach backs and Aspen had grown a little bit from
00:22:08.317 --> 00:22:10.377
there, but it wasn't my full-time gig yet.
00:22:11.402 --> 00:22:14.262
And then they were doing some teach backs. And, well, what do you do,
00:22:14.342 --> 00:22:16.482
John? Oh, okay, well, this is what I do, blah, blah, blah.
00:22:16.842 --> 00:22:21.622
And then the next day, Pat Doyle, this wide across his shoulders,
00:22:21.682 --> 00:22:24.122
comes in and he goes, I got a bone to pick with you, buddy.
00:22:24.382 --> 00:22:29.782
And I was like, uh-oh, I'm about to get murdered, you know, because Pat Doyle could rip my arms off.
00:22:30.002 --> 00:22:30.202
Yeah.
00:22:30.422 --> 00:22:33.642
And he goes, man, I went and looked at your YouTube channels.
00:22:33.682 --> 00:22:37.682
I was up until 3 o'clock in the morning watching videos. And I got problems with you, buddy.
00:22:38.402 --> 00:22:41.702
And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. And he goes, man, there's a lot of good stuff
00:22:41.702 --> 00:22:43.822
there, blah, blah, blah. And then he tells all his dudes, like,
00:22:44.002 --> 00:22:46.382
we had done a badge cam out of Las Cruces that had happened.
00:22:46.642 --> 00:22:49.042
And he was like, oh, hey, man, he did Jimmy's shooting.
00:22:49.502 --> 00:22:53.162
And everybody's like, oh, my gosh, that guy. And so then it was his big to-do.
00:22:53.842 --> 00:22:56.022
Had that guy. He goes, I called him. He's on ship later today.
00:22:56.042 --> 00:22:57.182
He's going to come by and say hi.
00:22:58.062 --> 00:22:59.622
So I was like, please don't kill me, Pat.
00:23:02.122 --> 00:23:04.182
And now he's like, you know, whenever I'm in town over there,
00:23:04.202 --> 00:23:07.742
he comes into Phoenix, which he does occasionally. We'll grab a meal. He's just a great dude.
00:23:08.562 --> 00:23:13.362
How about you, Adam? I mean, if your first class is like a concealed carry class,
00:23:13.462 --> 00:23:17.902
fine, but first real class, whatever you want to share. You know,
00:23:18.042 --> 00:23:20.922
I started out in the military, then I went straight to the police world.
00:23:21.262 --> 00:23:29.562
I didn't even get a concealed carry permit until probably 10 or so years as being a cop, right?
00:23:29.582 --> 00:23:32.362
You had a concealed carry permit as a cop, but I finally went,
00:23:32.462 --> 00:23:35.242
ah, go take this thing. That's pretty good. Yeah, you don't need it, right?
00:23:36.182 --> 00:23:38.702
So I had a ton of training through there, right? The SWAT team,
00:23:38.822 --> 00:23:42.622
you name it. Tons of training there. And then I just started teaching on the side. Yeah.
00:23:43.225 --> 00:23:46.185
And at some point later when I was turning Defenders full time,
00:23:46.425 --> 00:23:49.185
somebody said, why don't you go ahead and get some real training out somewhere?
00:23:49.325 --> 00:23:53.005
And I'm like, why? I can teach this anyways. So I ran off eventually.
00:23:53.185 --> 00:23:55.825
I figured I needed at least an instructor certification. So I went off to an
00:23:55.825 --> 00:23:57.905
NRA course to get the instructor.
00:23:58.105 --> 00:24:00.625
It was awful. It was horrible.
00:24:01.005 --> 00:24:04.305
Oh, it was terrible, right? And there was 64 of us in there.
00:24:04.425 --> 00:24:07.425
Oh, wow. There was only two of us that were coming from the LE background.
00:24:08.965 --> 00:24:11.845
Three or four people in the whole class could shoot. We could shoot.
00:24:11.845 --> 00:24:13.105
I thought I was pretty good.
00:24:14.185 --> 00:24:17.425
So we did well in the class, but it was just a basic NRA class.
00:24:19.045 --> 00:24:21.205
Later, somebody said, well, maybe you should get some more training.
00:24:21.325 --> 00:24:22.105
I thought, I don't need it.
00:24:22.565 --> 00:24:26.605
A buddy of mine just kept pushing me. So I went off and not knowing a single
00:24:26.605 --> 00:24:28.745
thing, knowing nothing about the civilian training world.
00:24:28.905 --> 00:24:31.145
Somebody said, go to this guy. Who is it? Ah, go to this guy.
00:24:31.645 --> 00:24:32.425
Ended up being Rob Pincus.
00:24:33.345 --> 00:24:38.005
So went to several of his classes. And at the time, what he was teaching was
00:24:38.005 --> 00:24:42.265
very similar to what I'd learned on the SWAT team as a cop. So I figured this
00:24:42.265 --> 00:24:46.465
is the way. Well, for the era, that probably makes sense. So I figured this is the way. Yeah.
00:24:46.705 --> 00:24:53.565
And later I began learning, you know, and started going to other places.
00:24:54.625 --> 00:24:59.105
But what was interesting was I walked into the first Pincus class I'd ever been
00:24:59.105 --> 00:25:03.065
to, and I was always one of the top shooters at RPD, one of the better ones.
00:25:03.185 --> 00:25:06.105
And I walked in thinking, SWAT dog, I got this. Mm-hmm.
00:25:07.486 --> 00:25:10.886
I did not realize as a cop, I was not that good of a shooter. I had no idea.
00:25:11.266 --> 00:25:14.126
And in the first 10 minutes of that class, I was so humbled.
00:25:14.506 --> 00:25:19.306
I was being outshot by like some 16-year-old girl and some accountant down here
00:25:19.306 --> 00:25:21.846
and some California CSP guy down here.
00:25:22.006 --> 00:25:25.286
They were just burning it down. And here I thought, SWAT dog.
00:25:25.866 --> 00:25:27.226
And I can't shoot compared to
00:25:27.226 --> 00:25:30.246
these people. It was one of those humbling things I've ever gone through.
00:25:30.446 --> 00:25:33.626
And that began my training journey. And I started looking more and more and
00:25:33.626 --> 00:25:39.146
more and Seek Lander and Pat Doyle and others. and everybody here,
00:25:39.326 --> 00:25:40.646
right? Learn from everybody here.
00:25:41.226 --> 00:25:44.946
That's where it changed for me. And it seems like it's a constant, ongoing process.
00:25:45.326 --> 00:25:49.086
Competition, that's an incredible place to go train. I'm shooting competition
00:25:49.086 --> 00:25:52.046
almost every week now, and I've learned so much doing that.
00:25:53.086 --> 00:25:56.806
And it feels like I'm just at the beginning of starting to really learn.
00:26:00.786 --> 00:26:05.446
That's a sign of someone that's truly, I think, on the right path.
00:26:05.446 --> 00:26:11.806
I mean, it's so easy to be like, I've arrived and I know all the things, you know.
00:26:12.026 --> 00:26:16.866
And I remember I got a shirt from Jeff Gonzalez a number of years ago.
00:26:17.686 --> 00:26:24.506
And it says on the back of it something like to the effect of knowing nothing
00:26:24.506 --> 00:26:26.966
is like true knowledge or something like that.
00:26:27.166 --> 00:26:32.846
And I remember when I first read that, I was like, I'm trying to make sense of this, you know.
00:26:33.566 --> 00:26:37.066
But it makes a lot of sense now. That was the case.
00:26:37.226 --> 00:26:40.886
I walked in my first formal class thinking, I know what I'm doing here.
00:26:41.006 --> 00:26:42.546
I'm going to probably beat everybody here.
00:26:43.726 --> 00:26:47.006
Boy, that was probably one of the best lessons I've ever had in my life.
00:26:47.246 --> 00:26:54.686
And now it's just, it seems like the learning journey is, it's constantly uphill.
00:26:54.906 --> 00:26:56.446
And it feels like it's still just beginning.
00:26:57.710 --> 00:27:00.530
Brian. God, mine's shady compared to y'all.
00:27:03.730 --> 00:27:07.750
I started shooting very young, and I read every magazine. There's a thing called
00:27:07.750 --> 00:27:09.970
magazines. They had pages in it. You could read articles.
00:27:10.270 --> 00:27:12.750
And that was really all the gun information that was available.
00:27:13.330 --> 00:27:17.750
So I read everything, and it was a guy that trained martial arts with me who
00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:20.830
was a long-range reconnaissance patrol in Vietnam.
00:27:21.510 --> 00:27:25.090
I don't know how true his life was, but he was a mess.
00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:30.250
And he proceeded to teach us to shoot a 22 with no sights on it,
00:27:30.790 --> 00:27:34.090
jungle walks, all sorts of crazy shooting.
00:27:34.210 --> 00:27:37.810
It all came from that side, and it was very informative.
00:27:38.010 --> 00:27:40.710
I don't know if it was good informative, but we learned a lot of shooting.
00:27:40.930 --> 00:27:44.690
And then I saw an ad in the back of the magazine from Masada Youb,
00:27:45.110 --> 00:27:49.570
and I sent a check off to an unknown address with no correspondence backwards,
00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:54.310
and I never knew if the class was on, and I took a map out and went and found that class,
00:27:54.330 --> 00:27:57.090
and I realized that there was depth to this
00:27:57.090 --> 00:28:00.710
training now and I'd read all his articles you know and it
00:28:00.710 --> 00:28:03.610
was very interesting and then later as my martial arts career
00:28:03.610 --> 00:28:06.390
continued another guy came in he had a gun shirt on and I said
00:28:06.390 --> 00:28:10.170
hey do you shoot and he said yeah you know I adjunct instructor
00:28:10.170 --> 00:28:13.370
for a large company and I said you think about running a class for us and I
00:28:13.370 --> 00:28:16.810
proceeded to make him run a business for four years so I could be his apprentice
00:28:16.810 --> 00:28:22.390
and then I was able to move into the real professional area of shooting and
00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:26.330
got to learn the ins and outs my real first professional class anybody would
00:28:26.330 --> 00:28:28.210
recognize outside Moss was Rangemaster.
00:28:28.430 --> 00:28:32.110
Went to the instructor program and shot. And I've always had a love for it.
00:28:32.310 --> 00:28:35.730
And now I've been exposed to some of the greatest instructors and shooters.
00:28:36.090 --> 00:28:41.270
And you've heard it several times, but there's really no difference in the tactical
00:28:41.270 --> 00:28:44.770
and the competition shooting. It's just shooting, guys.
00:28:45.368 --> 00:28:48.668
It's making good decisions. It's learning to be better. It's learning to be competent.
00:28:48.908 --> 00:28:53.628
And we all want to build a reservoir of skill that allows us to understand who
00:28:53.628 --> 00:28:56.868
we truly are so that we can shoot well and shoot at our highest level.
00:28:57.028 --> 00:28:59.648
You live in the greatest generation of accessible knowledge.
00:28:59.828 --> 00:29:01.128
I know the filter is very hard.
00:29:01.488 --> 00:29:04.988
You've got to find good people to do it with. But you're able to look now and
00:29:04.988 --> 00:29:06.328
see what good shooting looks like.
00:29:06.428 --> 00:29:11.348
And it's very hard to run that long-range reconnaissance class that I went through
00:29:11.348 --> 00:29:13.908
now because there's a comparison metric now.
00:29:14.128 --> 00:29:17.868
And I'm rather envious of people starting shooting because they can just tune
00:29:17.868 --> 00:29:21.108
in to his channel, train with guys like this, train with you,
00:29:21.228 --> 00:29:23.728
and be able to get good really quick.
00:29:23.868 --> 00:29:27.268
You're still going to make mistakes, but there are going to be better mistakes that you learn from.
00:29:27.548 --> 00:29:32.268
We are in a day and age where, speaking on the competition side,
00:29:33.448 --> 00:29:38.668
where in recent years there have been shooters that have gone from not being
00:29:38.668 --> 00:29:45.108
shooters to winning national championships in a couple of years, which is madness.
00:29:45.568 --> 00:29:50.588
We have had several times now where we've had students show up to their first
00:29:50.588 --> 00:29:53.068
formal firearms class that was one of our classes.
00:29:54.268 --> 00:29:57.748
We always ask, what's your background and all these things? Oh,
00:29:57.788 --> 00:29:59.888
I've never taken a firearms class, my very first one.
00:30:00.627 --> 00:30:06.867
And yet they've been training via YouTube and TikTok for a couple of years.
00:30:06.867 --> 00:30:09.987
And they come in as very competent shooters.
00:30:10.347 --> 00:30:14.167
Yeah. Like, well, I just watched what you said. Or I watched one of these guys
00:30:14.167 --> 00:30:17.487
and what they said. And I did the thing. And I did the dry practice. And I did the stuff.
00:30:18.267 --> 00:30:22.187
And so, you know, I don't know if it worked or not. Shooter ready.
00:30:22.327 --> 00:30:23.747
Standby. Beep. Yeah, it worked.
00:30:24.167 --> 00:30:27.567
And then it becomes a matter of cleaning up nuance because they got there far
00:30:27.567 --> 00:30:29.387
faster than we ever could have. Yes.
00:30:29.687 --> 00:30:32.587
So fast. I've seen that as well, and it's pretty remarkable.
00:30:32.927 --> 00:30:37.087
We are in a special time, just building off what you left us with,
00:30:37.147 --> 00:30:39.927
Brian, of just the amount of information.
00:30:40.167 --> 00:30:46.427
And, again, like you, I remember my grandfather owned a little mercantile store
00:30:46.427 --> 00:30:48.647
in the middle of nowhere in a small farming community.
00:30:48.847 --> 00:30:53.207
And I spent a lot of my summers there just working in a store,
00:30:53.547 --> 00:30:58.447
sweeping floors, taking garbage out, that kind of thing. And he had stacks of
00:30:58.447 --> 00:31:03.547
guns and ammo, handguns magazine, American Rifleman, you know, all the usual stuff.
00:31:04.381 --> 00:31:07.861
And so, I mean, I would just pour over those pages and like,
00:31:07.981 --> 00:31:09.341
that's, that's what we had.
00:31:09.981 --> 00:31:13.181
Or you could order some VHS tapes, you know, online, you know,
00:31:13.781 --> 00:31:17.761
advertised in the magazines. Some Betamax. The burner coming to you shortly.
00:31:18.141 --> 00:31:22.561
Right, you know, and so, you know, but now there's just so much,
00:31:22.741 --> 00:31:26.981
not just the written material, but the visual aspect that you can go on YouTube
00:31:26.981 --> 00:31:31.781
and see and you watch, you can slow it down in slow motion and what is he doing there?
00:31:31.841 --> 00:31:35.101
How is he doing that? You know, like, it's remarkable.
00:31:35.761 --> 00:31:38.441
It kind of reminds me a little bit of my own experience. So,
00:31:38.701 --> 00:31:41.821
you know, my first real training was going to cop school.
00:31:43.581 --> 00:31:47.801
And that opened my eyes. My first real course, like, that, you know,
00:31:47.821 --> 00:31:50.401
people would recognize was actually with Kyle Lamb.
00:31:51.321 --> 00:31:53.861
And that was kind of fun. And, I mean, that also further, like,
00:31:53.961 --> 00:31:55.361
opened my eyes. I was just like, whoa, you know.
00:31:55.941 --> 00:31:57.101
He maybe knows a thing or two.
00:31:57.181 --> 00:32:03.601
Yeah, you know. And so, but I remember literally like the couple of days before
00:32:03.601 --> 00:32:09.421
I knew I was going to this post academy that I had acquired the gear.
00:32:09.581 --> 00:32:11.921
I had a gun, had a duty holster.
00:32:12.101 --> 00:32:14.541
I mean, they basically gave us like, this is what you need. Bring it,
00:32:14.701 --> 00:32:15.781
you know, go buy it, whatever.
00:32:16.849 --> 00:32:23.329
And I remember a couple of nights before the beginning of that school that I'm
00:32:23.329 --> 00:32:26.329
looking at my gun, I'm looking at my holster, you know, got all this stuff.
00:32:26.489 --> 00:32:29.089
And I'm like, I'm not completely stupid to it, but I just knew,
00:32:29.229 --> 00:32:32.609
I'm like, maybe I should like figure this out a little bit.
00:32:33.229 --> 00:32:36.709
And nobody had ever talked to me before about dry fire.
00:32:36.829 --> 00:32:40.149
I'd read about it a little bit in some of the magazines, but I had never done
00:32:40.149 --> 00:32:46.009
it and didn't know what I was doing. But I will say that for a couple of hours,
00:32:46.149 --> 00:32:51.329
for a couple of evenings before beginning that academy, I started doing dry fire.
00:32:51.469 --> 00:32:54.009
I didn't really even know truly like what I was doing.
00:32:54.349 --> 00:32:57.309
But it made a world of difference because here I got in, I mean,
00:32:57.409 --> 00:32:58.189
just those couple of days.
00:32:58.309 --> 00:33:02.409
And it was amazing to me. And that's sort of like how I discovered the power of dry fire.
00:33:02.589 --> 00:33:05.589
It was just like, okay, like, you know, I went through that.
00:33:05.709 --> 00:33:09.289
And there were people in the academy that, you know, the first time they're
00:33:09.289 --> 00:33:12.629
on the line, they're teaching us how to draw a holster. or step one,
00:33:12.809 --> 00:33:16.529
step two, step three, and so on, like that's the first time they're ever doing it.
00:33:16.649 --> 00:33:20.129
And I at least had the advantage of, oh, I've done this a few times now.
00:33:20.489 --> 00:33:24.469
So, you know, and it was just amazing that that little bit of dry fire I did
00:33:24.469 --> 00:33:28.529
for a couple of days actually showed quite a bit of a difference.
00:33:29.569 --> 00:33:34.309
So I know all of you, I mean, wouldn't be probably where you are either skill-wise
00:33:34.309 --> 00:33:36.609
if it weren't for dry practice.
00:33:38.169 --> 00:33:41.489
Anyway, we could go down a rabbit hole and talk about that. But the question
00:33:41.489 --> 00:33:45.789
I wanted to ask now at this point was, what's something that you wish you knew
00:33:45.789 --> 00:33:47.529
when you were just getting started?
00:33:47.869 --> 00:33:51.129
Like if you could just go back and give yourself one piece of advice.
00:33:51.349 --> 00:33:55.609
And I'm going to put the rule on us too that if John says, no,
00:33:55.729 --> 00:33:58.929
we'll reverse course. We'll start with Brian this time. Let's mix it up.
00:33:59.389 --> 00:34:02.889
If Brian says something, you can't give the same response, even if you're already
00:34:02.889 --> 00:34:04.289
thinking it. How about that?
00:34:05.381 --> 00:34:10.581
I would say the most important thing to learn in any of this is that you must pursue the failure.
00:34:11.021 --> 00:34:13.401
You must learn from it. You're not failing, you're learning.
00:34:13.781 --> 00:34:15.501
And don't be so hard on yourself.
00:34:15.641 --> 00:34:20.641
Without those times of you missing or working harder, you're not going to improve.
00:34:21.301 --> 00:34:24.441
I always wanted to be the best at anything I do, and I get that,
00:34:24.501 --> 00:34:26.081
and it probably drives a lot of you too.
00:34:26.481 --> 00:34:30.221
But you're going to fail, and it's a chance to learn. So I always tell everybody
00:34:30.221 --> 00:34:32.641
in class, you're either doing one thing or the other. You're either shooting
00:34:32.641 --> 00:34:33.721
well or you're about to learn.
00:34:34.261 --> 00:34:37.401
And it you know it's well emphasized in
00:34:37.401 --> 00:34:40.501
the industry now that we should pursue that but especially in
00:34:40.501 --> 00:34:43.281
law enforcement you should never miss that's what they taught
00:34:43.281 --> 00:34:46.081
us in post you can't ever miss a target we talked about
00:34:46.081 --> 00:34:49.401
the size of our groups but guys try new things you
00:34:49.401 --> 00:34:52.561
may waste a bit of time but there's experience with that time and
00:34:52.561 --> 00:34:55.681
you'll get better and you'll have an appreciation and no matter how
00:34:55.681 --> 00:34:58.541
good your instruction how good your start you will make a mistake
00:34:58.541 --> 00:35:01.201
and you must relish those mistakes because it
00:35:01.201 --> 00:35:04.201
will make you who you are and it'll give you a bit of compassion for
00:35:04.201 --> 00:35:07.181
what what you have to go through to learn because if you
00:35:07.181 --> 00:35:10.041
really want to be good at something you're going to pursue a couple dead ends but
00:35:10.041 --> 00:35:12.981
you're also going to learn magnificently from them each time
00:35:12.981 --> 00:35:17.701
so I would be a bit easier on myself than I was driven myself pretty hard on
00:35:17.701 --> 00:35:22.221
some of those things and it it will burn you out and we see that we see good
00:35:22.221 --> 00:35:25.921
students come that just disappear because they burn themselves out because they
00:35:25.921 --> 00:35:30.181
never want to fail they never want to miss they avoid it it's taught as an avoidance.
00:35:30.521 --> 00:35:32.761
Just enjoy the process and learn from the shooting.
00:35:34.062 --> 00:35:37.502
Awesome. Well, I don't like your rule because I was going to talk about failing forward.
00:35:38.582 --> 00:35:42.282
Because failing forward is the way to go, the secret sauce, right?
00:35:42.542 --> 00:35:46.942
So if we're going to put that rule in place, I'd tell you the one thing I wish
00:35:46.942 --> 00:35:53.102
I'd known, I'd encourage others to have, is have an internal curiosity,
00:35:53.482 --> 00:35:55.462
right? Be curious about it.
00:35:56.002 --> 00:35:58.942
If you have a curiosity about it, I'm talking not just technique,
00:35:59.122 --> 00:36:00.162
but everything about it.
00:36:00.942 --> 00:36:03.122
You're going to be the person who's going to do the research.
00:36:03.122 --> 00:36:06.542
You're going to try to listen to the people who are either experts or supposed
00:36:06.542 --> 00:36:10.982
experts, but also in that curiosity, not to just accept what the experts say.
00:36:11.082 --> 00:36:14.222
Just because somebody says to do it this way and they're fantastic,
00:36:14.442 --> 00:36:18.702
maybe even world class, doesn't mean it's the right way nor the right way for you, right?
00:36:18.902 --> 00:36:23.302
And I'd be willing, I'd suggest being willing to constantly go test and evaluate
00:36:23.302 --> 00:36:25.742
what somebody else showed you that is good, right?
00:36:25.962 --> 00:36:30.602
I was teaching a certain way of doing something once and it was an active self-protection conference.
00:36:30.602 --> 00:36:33.482
I got roped into teaching that I wasn't expecting to teach at,
00:36:33.542 --> 00:36:38.122
and so I taught a certain way and a certain thing that I no longer teach,
00:36:38.242 --> 00:36:42.522
and it was a very interesting lesson to me that later, I watched somebody who
00:36:42.522 --> 00:36:44.262
was in the class, I won't say who.
00:36:44.922 --> 00:36:48.142
Okay, somebody who was in that class for a little bit was stepping off to the
00:36:48.142 --> 00:36:52.902
side completely by themselves, facing wherever else, practicing a certain technique I'd shown.
00:36:53.507 --> 00:36:57.787
And I saw him watch. We'll say it's you. Okay. I saw him from the back shaking
00:36:57.787 --> 00:37:00.607
his head, like kind of like, and I could almost read his mind like,
00:37:00.687 --> 00:37:03.507
that's bullcrap, right? That's not working for him.
00:37:03.847 --> 00:37:07.027
And I thought that was so interesting. That was actually a lesson to me at that
00:37:07.027 --> 00:37:11.527
point of always question what somebody else might be saying and go test it for yourself.
00:37:11.767 --> 00:37:16.507
And that intellectual curiosity will usually lead you towards the right thing, right?
00:37:16.647 --> 00:37:20.307
Or at least you'll start growing and understanding it deeper and better.
00:37:20.487 --> 00:37:23.927
And mastery is always in the nuance. And if you have that internal curiosity,
00:37:24.247 --> 00:37:26.207
you'll start finding more and more of the nuance.
00:37:26.447 --> 00:37:30.167
And therefore, probably your skills will grow. Certainly, your understanding
00:37:30.167 --> 00:37:31.167
of the concepts will grow.
00:37:31.247 --> 00:37:35.347
And if you understand the concepts, the technical side of the mechanical side
00:37:35.347 --> 00:37:37.687
becomes a lot easier if it's based upon the concept.
00:37:37.887 --> 00:37:42.047
And knowing those concepts come from your own curiosity. So I wish I'd had more
00:37:42.047 --> 00:37:45.547
curiosity and less acceptance of what the experts told me at the very beginning.
00:37:45.707 --> 00:37:46.887
You remember the police academy.
00:37:47.087 --> 00:37:50.367
We got taught a certain way. And you find out later that's the inefficient,
00:37:50.367 --> 00:37:53.867
quick way to train a mask. not to train expertise, right?
00:37:54.127 --> 00:37:58.307
So by developing that curiosity later and being willing to question the experts
00:37:58.307 --> 00:38:03.667
and test them out, I think is one of the best keys after failing forward. Awesome.
00:38:04.387 --> 00:38:10.187
So if I was going to riff off that, I always, an important thing to me is that
00:38:10.187 --> 00:38:12.707
principles are universal, but applications are personal.
00:38:13.267 --> 00:38:16.807
And so I remember sitting in a firearms class with a nationally known trainer,
00:38:17.027 --> 00:38:21.127
paid really, really good money and standing there struggling like,
00:38:21.187 --> 00:38:24.927
wait a minute, I'm not seeing what you're saying I should be seeing in my recoil control here.
00:38:26.023 --> 00:38:31.863
I don't know what i'm doing wrong and that trainer's answer was we'll just grip the gun better
00:38:32.803 --> 00:38:38.663
and i'm like can you can you give me more than that i don't know what i'm doing wrong
00:38:39.183 --> 00:38:42.543
we'll just grip the gun harder now this particular national
00:38:42.543 --> 00:38:45.423
level trainer has hands that make mine look like little bitty
00:38:45.423 --> 00:38:48.623
children's hands you guys know some of these big monster
00:38:48.623 --> 00:38:52.063
mitts you know what i mean and it takes a full-size gun and just envelops
00:38:52.063 --> 00:38:54.923
it and and i'm like look i got pretty big hands with
00:38:54.923 --> 00:38:57.703
pretty good size grip and i don't know what i am screwing this up and
00:38:57.703 --> 00:39:00.523
so can you help me with this just grip it better and
00:39:00.523 --> 00:39:04.163
i that frustrated me because that particular
00:39:04.163 --> 00:39:08.943
instructor was struggling that day or at least in my mind to personalize this
00:39:08.943 --> 00:39:13.543
to me right yeah and so you know we've all seen this you've had a student show
00:39:13.543 --> 00:39:17.163
up in class that you're like here's the technique that i think tends to work
00:39:17.163 --> 00:39:23.623
best in most cases but they've got an anatomical thing uh a an experience thing, the way they see,
00:39:23.743 --> 00:39:26.763
the way they feel, the way they do things. So I've really started
00:39:27.968 --> 00:39:32.928
Telling students here's this idea to play with but i want you to stand on the line and experience
00:39:33.328 --> 00:39:36.088
and the way that that works for you might be
00:39:36.088 --> 00:39:39.768
different than the way it works for me so my hands
00:39:39.768 --> 00:39:42.668
fit my gun this way and this is the way i want to do things and
00:39:42.668 --> 00:39:45.388
so the principle is here's the principles of how we want to do
00:39:45.388 --> 00:39:48.108
that you're going to have to figure it out and that
00:39:48.108 --> 00:39:50.828
works in my world too so when i'm looking at a technique and somebody
00:39:50.828 --> 00:39:53.828
goes oh do this thing and i go okay cool like
00:39:53.828 --> 00:39:57.448
maybe that worked really well when i was when
00:39:57.448 --> 00:40:00.228
i had really strong grip but it works less well that my you
00:40:00.228 --> 00:40:03.668
know i'm having this grip problem in this hand or something like that so so
00:40:03.668 --> 00:40:06.868
the idea that the principles are universal right but
00:40:06.868 --> 00:40:12.588
applications are incredibly personal yep um and and that's okay because you
00:40:12.588 --> 00:40:15.408
know somebody goes well jerry mitralek does that and i go yeah but he's not
00:40:15.408 --> 00:40:21.308
human and the way that he applies that principle is with his ridiculous level
00:40:21.308 --> 00:40:24.328
of fast twitch muscle fibers I can't do because I'm mortal.
00:40:25.348 --> 00:40:31.748
And I wish I could because then I'd be Jerry Michalik. But I can't do that. Or the way that you see
00:40:32.865 --> 00:40:38.025
Max Michel and the way he grips his pistol, to me, in my way of thinking, is weird.
00:40:38.445 --> 00:40:41.765
Like I watch him grip a pistol and I go, it's not how I would do it.
00:40:41.865 --> 00:40:43.085
And it's not how I'd recommend it.
00:40:43.685 --> 00:40:46.845
And yet, maybe Max could teach us a thing or two.
00:40:46.965 --> 00:40:49.785
And he knows maybe a thing or two about shooting fast and accurately because,
00:40:49.825 --> 00:40:51.705
you know, national champion and all that.
00:40:52.105 --> 00:40:55.045
So that individualized application is super important.
00:40:55.245 --> 00:40:59.485
So I've tried to put my hands in my pocket a little bit and not tell a student
00:40:59.485 --> 00:41:02.045
that technique is not right.
00:41:02.045 --> 00:41:04.825
Yeah but rather ask tell me about
00:41:04.825 --> 00:41:07.505
that and is it working for you yeah and if it's
00:41:07.505 --> 00:41:11.885
not working for you you're not getting the results you want have you tried something
00:41:11.885 --> 00:41:15.205
else is this might this work a little bit better it's just like with your dry
00:41:15.205 --> 00:41:18.385
practice right so you start working in dry practice and there's maybe nobody
00:41:18.385 --> 00:41:20.765
else standing there to tell you you're doing it right you're doing it wrong
00:41:20.765 --> 00:41:24.965
but the timer don't lie and so then you start experimenting and start playing a little
00:41:25.025 --> 00:41:31.485
bit and like oh okay wow i really got faster when i did this thing uh and whether
00:41:31.485 --> 00:41:35.945
or not it's right well the timer don't lie so you know it is what it is yeah
00:41:35.945 --> 00:41:42.745
Yeah excellent advice gentlemen uh lots of lots of good things i mean i i would echo all of that i uh,
00:41:45.450 --> 00:41:50.310
You know, you've been through my class as well, and you've attended a block of mine years ago.
00:41:50.470 --> 00:41:54.310
And I'm real big, especially with grip, especially with grip,
00:41:54.490 --> 00:41:56.150
of teaching principles of grip.
00:41:56.290 --> 00:42:01.450
Because I remember when I was, we'll call myself a baby instructor at that time,
00:42:01.730 --> 00:42:05.370
that I was like, you know, this is how you should grip a gun.
00:42:05.470 --> 00:42:10.350
Because I didn't know any other way, really. So, and I knew it worked and yeah,
00:42:10.510 --> 00:42:16.150
probably nine, 80 to 90% of people can probably do pretty well doing what I was showing them to do.
00:42:17.270 --> 00:42:21.610
But, uh, it, what happened for me is noticing, like you just pointed out,
00:42:21.690 --> 00:42:28.310
like Max or Mike Seeklander or Rob Latham or, you know, name, name the dude.
00:42:28.470 --> 00:42:30.970
And you look at and analyze their grips and it's like, well,
00:42:31.010 --> 00:42:32.830
that's different. That's different. That's different.
00:42:32.990 --> 00:42:37.310
That's different. They're all unique in their respective ways and paying attention
00:42:37.310 --> 00:42:41.890
to all of that, but then trying to distill it down to, well,
00:42:41.990 --> 00:42:43.870
what's similar? What are they all doing?
00:42:44.370 --> 00:42:51.310
And that was a really profound moment for me to kind of recognize that,
00:42:51.370 --> 00:42:55.950
to go, okay, there's something more to this and identifying those principles.
00:42:56.490 --> 00:43:03.070
So very, very good stuff. I wanted to ask you guys a question of who is somebody, a name?
00:43:03.450 --> 00:43:08.070
Give me a name of, and I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be in the firearm
00:43:08.070 --> 00:43:12.630
space, but I mean, we are probably talking in that context, but someone that
00:43:12.630 --> 00:43:17.130
you would give credit to, to get you to where you are. Let's go, Brian.
00:43:18.282 --> 00:43:23.342
I would have to say that Moss had a big influence on me, especially on the legal side.
00:43:23.722 --> 00:43:28.442
And his logics of how he approached that, that had a big influence early in it.
00:43:29.602 --> 00:43:34.082
And there's been so many after that, it's hard to say. You'd be coming out an
00:43:34.082 --> 00:43:35.942
agglomation of all instructors.
00:43:36.342 --> 00:43:37.982
And we always want to give credit.
00:43:38.542 --> 00:43:42.482
Everybody in this room has influenced me in a way. And I try to give attribution to that.
00:43:42.622 --> 00:43:46.482
But I'd have to say that it was a very early time, too. and reading his books,
00:43:46.682 --> 00:43:50.982
I realized that I had a lot of things wrong early in my approach.
00:43:51.122 --> 00:43:54.382
Even in law enforcement, I had never thought about two sides of it.
00:43:54.522 --> 00:43:56.522
And then I got to sit in court and watch it all the time.
00:43:56.782 --> 00:44:02.182
And it changed my approach that maybe I can't be 100% right in all my decisions.
00:44:02.422 --> 00:44:05.162
Maybe I have to do the best job I can and I can move forward.
00:44:05.242 --> 00:44:07.022
And I thought that was very instrumental with him.
00:44:07.622 --> 00:44:10.882
And John hosted him and we went to his class.
00:44:11.022 --> 00:44:13.802
And it was interesting to see, you know, nearly 30 years later,
00:44:13.982 --> 00:44:16.942
the same approach to it, but I found him to be a dynamic speaker too.
00:44:17.502 --> 00:44:19.582
He's very good at the presentation on that.
00:44:20.282 --> 00:44:25.802
On the pure shooting side of it, it's really interesting how many people have
00:44:25.802 --> 00:44:31.282
influenced it, how to do things, how to improve it, because everybody offers
00:44:31.282 --> 00:44:33.862
some principle, something that really does it.
00:44:34.402 --> 00:44:38.782
I will tell you, Eric Grafell had a big influence on me because of his grip.
00:44:38.982 --> 00:44:41.182
We were talking about grip. His is don't grip the gun.
00:44:41.982 --> 00:44:44.922
Coming from a martial arts background, I like to apply a lot of pressure and
00:44:44.922 --> 00:44:47.602
in fact I learned I was gripping the gun too hard you know
00:44:47.602 --> 00:44:50.282
it was squealing a little bit while I did it it was
00:44:50.282 --> 00:44:53.522
affecting my sights you know and for
00:44:53.522 --> 00:44:58.702
somebody to say to me hey why don't you relax let go you know that was a profound
00:44:58.702 --> 00:45:03.462
influence and the way Max Michelle looks at vision you too you helped me with
00:45:03.462 --> 00:45:06.902
vision even in that small block the way you talked about opening your vision
00:45:06.902 --> 00:45:11.702
and making it larger was a big influence in that you know Trigger presses,
00:45:11.882 --> 00:45:15.982
I still use Tom Gibbons quickly, carefully and precisely. I find it very useful in that way.
00:45:20.025 --> 00:45:22.685
Mike Sieklander talked about posture a lot, how to move well,
00:45:23.005 --> 00:45:27.345
how you're not going to stand. We both share a martial arts background that was interesting.
00:45:27.565 --> 00:45:32.545
So it's hard to say one, but I would thank all of you who have ever invested
00:45:32.545 --> 00:45:36.865
in me in any small, significant way. It's a lesson that's well cherished.
00:45:36.965 --> 00:45:39.345
And, you know, the problem is the longer you do this, you kind of forget.
00:45:39.845 --> 00:45:43.105
You forget who influenced you. You know, it's hard to remember.
00:45:43.105 --> 00:45:46.505
It's hard to attribute this is where it came from or this. and then you look
00:45:46.505 --> 00:45:49.725
at the industry and you realize three or four people came up with same similar
00:45:49.725 --> 00:45:53.665
ideas which we see in all aspects of life and they're all sharing a bit of it
00:45:53.665 --> 00:45:58.905
it's a great way to learn and improve so i'm grateful thank you to all the teachers
00:45:58.905 --> 00:46:01.825
out there always yeah adam.
00:46:03.168 --> 00:46:07.448
Thinking through the question, I have a hard time pointing out one person in particular.
00:46:08.468 --> 00:46:16.508
I had a college professor, Greg Mazak, who was so curious about things and so
00:46:16.508 --> 00:46:19.388
driven and just so honestly,
00:46:19.668 --> 00:46:23.708
intellectually honest about things that it seemed to influence a lot of the things in my life.
00:46:24.088 --> 00:46:29.508
My dad's, same type of deep dive into the scriptures, the Bible, into people.
00:46:29.968 --> 00:46:33.388
That seemed to oddly influence my shooting, my shooting journey.
00:46:34.508 --> 00:46:37.848
I've learned from everybody in this room so many things. And if I went down
00:46:37.848 --> 00:46:40.468
the list, I'd leave too many people out.
00:46:40.668 --> 00:46:43.968
And I think the same way, the giving the credit to or the attribution,
00:46:45.108 --> 00:46:48.448
it seems like I've become a sponge of so many different things.
00:46:48.868 --> 00:46:53.888
And then back to personalizing what they've taught to me.
00:46:54.368 --> 00:46:57.728
I have a hard time putting it down to one person. It's almost like we've become
00:46:57.728 --> 00:47:00.968
a kleptomaniac of what somebody else has taught, and I don't even remember who
00:47:00.968 --> 00:47:03.388
all it came from in some cases.
00:47:05.908 --> 00:47:10.968
And what's been so interesting to me is as I've watched these people in our
00:47:10.968 --> 00:47:12.528
world, the firearms world,
00:47:12.708 --> 00:47:18.948
and I've come to know them, I learn who I can learn a lot of very solid technical
00:47:18.948 --> 00:47:23.808
things from, and also those who I deeply respect too, right?
00:47:24.768 --> 00:47:29.188
And what's been so interesting to me is I know in a couple of years here, I'll get some skill.
00:47:29.408 --> 00:47:31.928
A couple of years, I'll get a lot of skill and heart. And to me,
00:47:31.968 --> 00:47:33.548
the heart's always the most important part, right?
00:47:34.448 --> 00:47:37.688
And it's been so interesting to find that the vast majority of the gun world
00:47:37.688 --> 00:47:40.328
that at least I've been able to associate with, their hearts are good.
00:47:41.048 --> 00:47:44.328
Their intentions are good. What they're trying to do is they're on the same
00:47:44.328 --> 00:47:47.188
type of mission I think all of us are on to make people better.
00:47:48.628 --> 00:47:49.928
And that has...
00:47:50.564 --> 00:47:55.364
That has sparked a deeper interest in just the shooting side because as my skills
00:47:55.364 --> 00:47:59.764
grow and really my teaching skills grow, I can now affect more people in the
00:47:59.764 --> 00:48:02.244
way they need to. Just like you were talking about a mentor, right?
00:48:02.424 --> 00:48:04.924
It seems like we've now moved into the mentor space.
00:48:05.444 --> 00:48:11.684
And if that's the case, I want to grow the mentorship side as much as I do the skill side.
00:48:11.824 --> 00:48:15.104
And I'm pulling from the best of the best, it seems like, all the time.
00:48:15.104 --> 00:48:21.224
And the massive amount of role models and examples that I can pull from and
00:48:21.224 --> 00:48:24.944
mirror from and then personalize from has been amazing to me.
00:48:24.984 --> 00:48:27.184
And I don't honestly know how to dial it down to one person.
00:48:27.704 --> 00:48:29.704
All right. All right. John?
00:48:30.224 --> 00:48:36.064
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I think I get the distinction of the only guy sitting
00:48:36.064 --> 00:48:39.084
at the table who's actually paid to sit in the class of everybody else at the
00:48:39.084 --> 00:48:41.704
table today. I think I'm that guy.
00:48:43.064 --> 00:48:46.304
And so learn from all of you guys for sure I think
00:48:47.024 --> 00:48:51.124
I mean I certainly couldn't say no to Masada you but you know I mean reading his books and
00:48:51.644 --> 00:48:57.064
listening to him you know you gotta have moss that's definitely in there on
00:48:57.064 --> 00:49:01.164
the shooting skill I would absolutely be remiss there's a lot of range master
00:49:01.164 --> 00:49:04.984
DNA in what active self protection doesn't there some things that I would be distinct from
00:49:05.424 --> 00:49:08.864
Tom Givens today but super fundamental and
00:49:08.864 --> 00:49:12.364
super you know uh instrumental in
00:49:12.364 --> 00:49:15.104
what in in my growth uh as a
00:49:15.104 --> 00:49:18.304
firearms instructor as a shooter um so
00:49:18.304 --> 00:49:25.364
certainly some of that um in the kind of decision making and performance space
00:49:25.364 --> 00:49:29.884
i i would be remiss if i didn't mention bill lewinski dr lewinski at force science
00:49:29.884 --> 00:49:35.324
has been not only instrumental in knowledge in you know here are the books you
00:49:35.324 --> 00:49:38.264
need to read but in providing the time
00:49:39.784 --> 00:49:42.464
I'll never forget the first time I emailed him and said, Hey, Dr.
00:49:42.564 --> 00:49:45.804
Lewinsky, can I ask you a question about this? And my phone rang.
00:49:47.045 --> 00:49:50.105
Heck is bill winsky calling me for hey john
00:49:50.105 --> 00:49:52.905
it's bill hi dr winsky no can we
00:49:52.905 --> 00:49:55.765
stop it's bill like you know i need you know you asked this question
00:49:55.765 --> 00:49:58.405
let me i talked to you about it that's been an incredible resource for me
00:49:58.405 --> 00:50:03.605
i mean the guy's a highly regarded phd and probably the nation not the nation's
00:50:03.605 --> 00:50:07.085
one of the world's leading experts in performance in human performance under
00:50:07.085 --> 00:50:13.585
deadly stress yeah so bill has been ridiculously generous and kind uh in his
00:50:13.585 --> 00:50:16.505
time So Moss on that legal side, super important.
00:50:17.405 --> 00:50:21.585
Tom, for sure. Pure shooting skills, no. Tom's not that guy that's like the
00:50:21.585 --> 00:50:22.705
pure shooting skills guy.
00:50:23.005 --> 00:50:29.405
But in terms of the application of deadly force, he's the one. I quote him all the time.
00:50:29.945 --> 00:50:32.245
Man, the bad guy gets to set the time and the place of the attack.
00:50:32.245 --> 00:50:34.045
He's only going to tell you about it at the last minute.
00:50:36.425 --> 00:50:42.405
And Tom will say that in a grumpy way. He'll say that with a little gruffness
00:50:42.405 --> 00:50:45.185
to it. So there's, I guess though that as a guy that, you know,
00:50:45.185 --> 00:50:49.405
I'm a Gen Xer, but raised by boomers, like certain, that certain amount of boomer
00:50:49.405 --> 00:50:51.045
tough love is what I grew up with.
00:50:51.085 --> 00:50:54.445
And so it's, it reminds me of my grandpa, you know? Yeah.
00:50:55.545 --> 00:51:01.445
And, and from afar, I, I didn't get to train with him formally,
00:51:01.445 --> 00:51:06.085
but I, I would also be remiss on that side from mindset if I didn't mention Pat Rogers.
00:51:06.445 --> 00:51:06.765
Yeah.
00:51:08.005 --> 00:51:14.565
I got to train with a lot of Pat's guys and gals, and got to interact with Pat
00:51:14.565 --> 00:51:16.705
several times before his untimely passing.
00:51:17.365 --> 00:51:24.665
And so those are some big influences, and honestly, from a shooting skills perspective,
00:51:24.865 --> 00:51:26.685
it's the guys at this table, probably more than anybody.
00:51:26.965 --> 00:51:30.565
I appreciate that. I've learned a lot from each of you, too, I want you to know.
00:51:32.425 --> 00:51:35.485
I was just gonna give two names myself, but that was gonna be,
00:51:36.927 --> 00:51:42.387
Who's influenced me the most in my understanding is probably Brian Enos,
00:51:42.587 --> 00:51:43.947
even though I have not actually.
00:51:43.947 --> 00:51:44.587
That's a heck of a name.
00:51:44.767 --> 00:51:48.607
I have never met him, and I hope to have that opportunity one day.
00:51:48.687 --> 00:51:51.187
But, I mean, he's been out of the firearm space for so long.
00:51:52.127 --> 00:51:56.387
But just his book. He's influenced me through his book, and I've read it more than any other.
00:51:56.767 --> 00:52:01.107
I think I've read it more than any other book besides, well,
00:52:01.207 --> 00:52:02.407
Bible, you know, Scripture.
00:52:04.267 --> 00:52:09.787
And so yeah it's been hugely influential on me and the other one is Rob Latham
00:52:09.787 --> 00:52:13.247
who is Brian's like right they were buddies back in the day right,
00:52:14.007 --> 00:52:19.807
and I'm going to give one specific example of this just that he helped me to
00:52:19.807 --> 00:52:24.987
believe in myself more and it was the recognition I'll tell you this story I
00:52:24.987 --> 00:52:26.667
came down to shoot Area 2 Championship,
00:52:28.707 --> 00:52:32.647
this was actually in Prescott Arizona that year because of COVID but this was 2020.
00:52:32.987 --> 00:52:37.767
They couldn't hold it at the usual place in Rio Salado. So they held it at the range in Prescott.
00:52:38.747 --> 00:52:41.347
And I come down. I was actually squatted with Rob.
00:52:43.347 --> 00:52:48.087
And I remember that morning, a stage I got done shooting. I turned around.
00:52:48.087 --> 00:52:52.347
I'm walking back away from the stage. And he's back there. And he just does this.
00:52:52.747 --> 00:52:56.627
And it gives me a thumbs up. And I was like, one of the greatest.
00:52:56.927 --> 00:52:58.627
The great one gave me a thumbs up.
00:52:58.627 --> 00:53:01.747
Gave me a thumbs up. I mean, there's been a few other things.
00:53:01.747 --> 00:53:04.987
But in that moment, I was like, oh, really?
00:53:07.007 --> 00:53:11.367
Just having somebody else who I respect and who should be respected for his
00:53:11.367 --> 00:53:14.867
accomplishments to then just basically be like, good job.
00:53:15.847 --> 00:53:20.487
It just gave me a boost of confidence and sort of helped me continue to progress on my own.
00:53:20.567 --> 00:53:25.227
Because there's times where you're just like, am I really cut out for this?
00:53:25.727 --> 00:53:29.407
You just kind of maybe get stuck or on a plateau or whatever.
00:53:29.407 --> 00:53:31.627
And that was just a huge boost of,
00:53:33.335 --> 00:53:36.295
Just confidence, yeah. And so that's been hugely influential on me.
00:53:36.475 --> 00:53:39.195
Anyway, we've actually gone a little bit longer than I intended,
00:53:39.335 --> 00:53:42.255
and I appreciate all of you guys' sharing with us.
00:53:43.055 --> 00:53:46.835
Folks, thank you for joining and watching or listening, whichever one you're doing.
00:53:47.235 --> 00:53:50.575
I hope that you'll see more content from us from SHOT Show 2026,
00:53:50.575 --> 00:53:52.395
more content from us, HK.
00:53:53.175 --> 00:53:56.075
And, guys, make sure you go check out each of these guys, Active Self Protection.
00:53:56.095 --> 00:53:59.975
If you're not already, well, you should be. Tons of content they can put out.
00:54:00.755 --> 00:54:03.915
Adam, Defenders USA, you guys also put out fantastic content.
00:54:04.135 --> 00:54:06.375
I always love seeing your videos. Thank you. Same with you, Brian.
00:54:06.595 --> 00:54:07.535
You're doing great work.
00:54:08.775 --> 00:54:12.975
The Complete Combatant. And I see you pop up on the Philster channel as well
00:54:12.975 --> 00:54:14.695
with some great content too.
00:54:14.935 --> 00:54:18.595
So that's where you guys can check out some of their stuff. Anything else you
00:54:18.595 --> 00:54:19.635
want to throw out there or plug?
00:54:20.635 --> 00:54:21.595
You know where to find me.
00:54:21.955 --> 00:54:24.935
All righty. Guys, thanks for watching or listening.
00:54:25.195 --> 00:54:28.915
And thank you, John, Adam, Brian, for your time today joining me on the Concealed
00:54:28.915 --> 00:54:30.275
Carry Podcast. We'll see you next time.
00:54:31.055 --> 00:54:35.975
All righty. I hope you enjoyed listening to this interview I had the privilege
00:54:35.975 --> 00:54:38.375
of doing together with these guys, the great guys.
00:54:38.575 --> 00:54:42.535
And we had a great time. I hope there was a lot of value that you could find
00:54:42.535 --> 00:54:46.495
in words of wisdom and lessons shared in this episode today.
00:54:46.955 --> 00:54:50.475
A reminder, this episode was sponsored by H&K.
00:54:51.175 --> 00:54:57.495
We appreciate them again so much for all they do for us at concealedcarry.com, for the podcast,
00:54:57.995 --> 00:55:03.935
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Check them out, support them, and we appreciate your support of us as we continue
00:55:11.855 --> 00:55:15.675
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00:55:16.335 --> 00:55:20.715
With that, I'm going to sign off and let you all go. We'll be back next time
00:55:20.715 --> 00:55:24.075
with more great content for the podcast.
00:55:24.235 --> 00:55:27.775
Until next time, a reminder to train right, train often, and train safe so you
00:55:27.775 --> 00:55:31.095
can fight hard, fight fast, and fight true. Take care.
00:55:44.732 --> 00:55:46.992
A reminder that laws vary from place to place, and we encourage listeners to
00:55:46.992 --> 00:55:48.932
seek local legal advice to understand applicable laws.
00:55:49.292 --> 00:55:51.392
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00:55:53.312 --> 00:55:55.632
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00:55:55.632 --> 00:55:57.752
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00:55:57.952 --> 00:55:59.232
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00:55:59.512 --> 00:56:01.772
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00:56:05.612 --> 00:56:07.632
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00:56:10.472 --> 00:56:14.812
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