Conversations with John Savage and Chip Hale

dani: Welcome back to the CODCA. I'm your host, Danny Wexelman. This week I sat down with two influential and impactful college coaches. The first up is UCLA's head coach, John Savage. He's been leading the charge for the Bruins for the last 22 seasons and seen his program produce more than 30 big leaguers. You'll love hearing John talk about what makes Cape Cod baseball so special and why the word compete. Is woven into the fabric of his program. And then we hear from Chip Hale. He's the head coach at Arizona. He played for the Orleans Cardinals in 1984 and 1985. His stories are incredible from his time on the Cape. And those moments and memories are still impactful to Chip Hale and in his program to this day. Let's start things off with the reigning 2026 Big Ten coach of the year, John Savage. It is a treat, it is an honor to get a chance to catch up with John Savage, head coach of the UCLA Bruins. And I have been fortunate enough, coach, to get to know you over the past few years and beyond that throughout my journeys and adventures through amateur baseball and college baseball. And I so appreciate you giving us some time for the CODCA.
John Savage: my pleasure. Thanks. Thanks for having me, Danny.
dani: Yeah. So here's what's cool is right now you are on the Cape and you're you've got players out there. The season has wrapped up and so we're kind of looking ahead. I know how busy it is for coaching staffs, for college coaches, and just trying to get yourselves ready for the next season. It never really ends, but kind of give us a little update. I know the season did not end the way that you had hoped with UCLA, but what kind of what kind of season summary do you have for me?
John Savage: Well, the season summary, I mean, I could not ask anything more from from our guys. I mean, we were fifty two and eight. We were preseason number one. We were number one the entire year. We we didn't lose a weekend. We won three out of four or four out of four every weekend. every week and for that you know, for sixteen weeks. So it it you know, i i it came to a really hard we we won the big ten, we won the the big ten tournament, and then, you know, we just didn't play very well, is what I would say. I mean We had some injuries. Redman never came back. We lost him for the last six weeks. That really took a big effect, I think, during the postseason. you know, we lost Gasparino kind of on a weird suspension play. thought that was un un you know, really unfortunate. but you know, between Rock and Roman and and Vi and and you know Logan and and Will and Dean and course cash, I mean just a great group of guys, a great group of Bruins, loyal guys have been pro in our program for three years, other than Logan and Will, obviously. And they had as good a season as UCLA's ever seen. And and it came to a you know the playoffs or the playoffs. There's no guarantees and St. Mary's played very well and we didn't. And to their credit they you know beat us. so you know I I all I can say is it was a it was a magical year. I've never seen a team s stay there or or put there and stay there the entire year. And unfortunately, you know, we didn't we didn't finish it. So, but you know, we're excited about the draft. we're excited about next year. We are c reconstructing our our roster as we speak. we're right in the middle of the portal. The portal's from June 1 to June 30th now, as everybody knows. So there's madness in in college baseball. the market has gone nuts. in terms of players and people jumping here or there. And it's, you know, I don't wanna sit here and complain. that's that's not my style, but I I wish it would, you know, have some guardrails to it at the end of the day and get back to some normalcy. But, you know, you gotta you gotta play the cards that's been given to you and and we're doing that and and we're building for the future.
dani: There's a couple of things I want to touch on that that you just hit there, which I think is really important. Like number one, you know, if you go back to Rock's freshman season that was disappointing and lopsided. And ultimately
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: he and that freshman class, they stayed, John.
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: And I I got to cover your regional at home that that next year. Why
John Savage: Right. Twenty five yeah. Yeah.
dani: what does that tell you, number one, about his class, and number two, Like that's very rare. That that
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: is almost an anomaly in college baseball. What does that mean to you that they wanted to stay and build with your program?
John Savage: Well, the first off, the the the the way you say it, it should not feel abnormal. It should be normal, number one.
dani: Yeah, yeah.
John Savage: but you're right. It it's it's unique. it's it's just real real bruins, real people, real people that wanna be developed, that wanna play in a winning program, winning culture, great university, great schedule, great weather. and then, you know, get their payday in the draft. I mean, I still believe NIL is should be you know bonus money should be should be major league money. we believe in NIL, we we believe in the players being compensated in every way. we believe in a fair market, but it's it's clearly been abused. and it's it's you know it's it's it's been abused. And now the the rich are are paying players. you know that that part of it is is a little off but at the end at the end of the day I think it it it to answer your question, it's it's guys that wanted to be coached. Coach Ward, Coach Barnes, Coach Palmer did a terrific job with our players this season or the or the last three years. Coach Gallego was with us. you know, those guys did a tremendous job of of building these guys. everybody saw them as freshmen. You don't want to be young in the world of college baseball today.
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: it's an older man's game. it that that kind of sounds crazy, but it's true. 18 year olds you know really have to be good to play and and even 19 year olds. So we're still on that cycle. I'm still fighting the fight of of a of a three year cycle, three year progression of development. I I believe if if you're in our program for three years, you're gonna get paid not only with you know with the with the potential degree from UCLA friendships
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: for forever, but a major league path. And we still believe in that. I still believe in that. Not nothing's gonna change that. What's going on around us is not gonna change that belief. and a credit to all those guys for believing in themselves, believing in the program, believing in the coaches, believing in that that you know what, let's we can do this. we won over a hundred games. We went over the most, we won, you know, the most games the last two years. in college baseball the highest winning percentage, didn't
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: finish the the season we way we wanted, but if in terms of the bulk of the work, nobody did it better than than these guys. And I I I I can't say enough about their makeup, their character, their tools. I thought their tools met their makeup. And yeah, any coach or any organization wants that. They they want that combination of tools and and makeup and winning players. anybody that doesn't want that, doesn't understand the industry, that doesn't understand the, you know, baseball at at the highest level. I just think at the end of the day, you know, these guys were so determined, so so together. you know, we got kicked out of the ballpark a year ago.
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: we were on a bus every day during the fall to Harvard West Lake and Notre Dame and LA Valley and Birmingham High and those guys were so generous to to let us play. And it was cool. I mean, we we we came together. It was a traveling band and they they stuck together through through the through the summer and and ultimately came out on the back end and a lot of them were gonna get paid on on July eleventh and twelfth.
dani: Yeah. And and this is why you're the perfect guest for our podcast here. Because I think what I appreciate about what you and your staff have done and just getting that closer look during regionals is Just this foundation of baseball and teaching fundamentals and teaching guys how to play, not how to throw, how to
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: pitch, how to compete, how to stay when things get hard. Right. You you have some kids who had to wait their turn and they waited because they've bought in
John Savage: Yeah. Yeah.
dani: to what you're selling. And and I think that goes hand in hand with what happens here on the Cape and with the Cape Cod League and going out for a summer and staying with a host family and playing with guys that you don't know and Buying in to Cape Cod baseball. What what do you
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: love? Like when was the first time you became aware of the Cape and just the prestige and what it meant for college players to go?
John Savage: Yeah. I mean it was early nineties. I've been sending guys there for thirty four years. I mean, to all over the place. had a lot of relationships with general managers, head coaches. they come and go. Some have stayed a long time. I just love the it's the highest level of of of summer baseball as an amateur, period. it matches a lot of Different players from from all over the country. I've I've watched Angel Cervantes pitch on on Tuesday night. Georgia lead noff, Georgia Tech in two, Florida State in
dani: Ha ha
John Savage: three, Vanderbilt in four. I mean, hello. I mean, it's you know, it's it's a real lineup. it's it's of of future professionals. it's all wood bat. You know, we all, you know, so it's it's so real. to the pro game. and you know, I just think the i they come back different. They come back from the Cape different in in every every shape. I've had guys really struggle in the Cape and come back better. I've had guys you know had really a lot of success in the Cape. They can't come back better. I I really think the whole experience just makes them better, like you're saying the the the adversity, the ups and downs, the streaks The slumps, the you know, getting a hitting around, pitching in a different role, hitting in a different spot in the lineup, possibly playing a different position, building your versatility. I can go on and on about the the advantages of playing in the cape. And you're coached by some real good baseball people. you play six nights a week in front of a unbelievable fan base. Each each community has an individual fan base that
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: Some are there throughout the whole summer. Some are c you know, vacationers that come and go through the Cape, lawn chairs, you know, grass berms. It's it's it's America, man. It it's so cool and so so fun to watch. And, you know, there's no you don't pay to get in. There's no you know, nobody pays to get in. There's a little snack bar there set up you know, for the games and a little gift shop, a tent gift shop and it's just You know, and you look back at the history, the history of the league. I mean you can go back to all these major leaguers. I mean, for every, every major league roster, half of them play in the Cape or three quarters and play in the Cape and potentially Team USA, obviously a lot of them. So it's just it's a collection that I I like to throw in freshmen, and see them combat. I did it with, I can list the names, Brandon Crawford,
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: you know, Ryan Kreidler, Matt McClain, Rock Chalowski, Pat Volaka, James Caprillian, Jake Byrd, Michael Toglia, Sean Bouchard, Kyle Karos, Max Rajik, Roman Martin, Dean West, you know, some some older guys and some future guys. And it's you know, a lot of the host families. I've had families that have hosted UCLA guys for the last 15 years. so they we know them. They know our players. They they know what type of kid they're getting. it's just a really cool, Now I would like the league to make some adjustments, but that's probably,
dani: Okay.
John Savage: you know, I think that's for another time or maybe today. But I I love the
dani: Mm-hmm.
John Savage: cape. I love the competition. I love you know, throwing an 18 year old or a 19 year old into this thing. the the draft being where the draft is makes it the rosters very difficult on these guys. There's a lot of guys coming
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: and going. Team USA just started up, so they lose a couple team USA guys. So it's really havoc, I would say, in terms of rosters building for the Kate. But I would like to see all true freshmen and all true sophomores and no draft eligible players.
dani: Okay.
John Savage: You know, now well obviously they're draft eligible players for the following year, right? and
dani: Course. Yeah.
John Savage: they're all prospects. I don't know if that's realistic. you know, I think it you know, it's cool that some juniors come up before the draft and get looked at. I I'm okay with that, but I think the the foundation of the league really should be elite sophomores. That's really the foundation. Elite sophomores and only, forty top freshmen or fifty top freshmen in the country in the league. I think that would be ideal. That way the roster construction would be very consistent. you'd only lose guys potentially to USA baseball for a couple weeks. I like to see the USA guys come back to the Cape after they're done. I think that's always a good message to the the Major League Baseball that you love the game and you want to get better and You know, it it's none of this stuff I'm tired and I need to go home and you know, all that,
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: Rigamaro. I I just think at the end of the day, the cape's built the right way. The foundation is there, it just needs to be tweaked a little bit in some aspects. And they would agree. This isn't something that they're they're they haven't been throwing around for the last couple of years.
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: I mean, with the draft being in July, it really, you know, it makes it challenging in terms of the roster, July eleventh and twelfth,
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: right? That's right.
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: basically in the middle of the summer. So, but the cape itself, I can go on and on about how it's developed, people and how guys come back differently and how they, you know, build friendships with other players throughout the country. And it's just a a really good brand of baseball. it's the last level before they go into a professional game.
dani: I love it. I there's so many great things you just touched on. And there's two details. Like number one, the host family aspect that you mentioned and staying in touch
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: with those families. You know, we talked to Billy Wagner, Buck Show Walter,
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: we talked to Lou Merlone, all of these guys
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: who are alums of the Cape and and were impactful guys, right? Batting titles, MVP honors,
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: like things of that nature. Not not just because Billy Wagner is a Hall of Famer, but what they did there and spending a whole summer, but Learning from their host family, staying in touch with their host family, things that are still important to them today. Why do you think that detail is important to you?
John Savage: it's it's just it's just builds character. It builds it builds awareness. It builds that there's you know, there's so much more outside of the thirty miles of Los Angeles. that you gotta grow, you gotta grow as a as a young player. and you then you gotta go really realize and see how many good players that are out there. that that's the one thing that they learn very, very quick, that there's arms. As we all know, arms are coming from everywhere. They're coming from the cave. They're coming from everywhere. Division
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: two, division three, NAIA, they're not all coming from, you know, North Carolina and USC and UCLA. I mean they're they're they're coming from all different shapes and forms. I would think arms would you would probably say that more arms are coming from everywhere. I think the bats
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: are still somewhat, you know, in a in a certain group throughout the country. but I just think that the the relationships they have with these host families, it's just they they bring in and and then they're like they they treat like their own sons. And it's such a cool I I went to dinner with a we had an off night here last night. I took everybody to dinner that that that are currently on our team and some of the host families, you know, brought them to the restaurant and they we talked for like twenty five minutes. And it was like, you know, I I've been taking care of players for the last thirteen years and chat them. and in in Katuet and in Orleans and these families brought these guys to this restaurant last night and you know they're not really Ubering or they're not you know they're they they're they care for and
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: they they you know they they cook for and they they they drive around and they they go to their games and and they build and they have a relationship with their moms and dads and which is cool. And then I I love I love being in the Cape I like Players that come here for two summers, their freshman summer
dani: Mm.
John Savage: and their sophomore summer. That's the I you know, junior year, our most of our juniors sign. they're not going to the Cape. they're just not doing that at UCLA. It's it's usually a it's a build-up through the Cape or through the Northwoods or West Coast League, or, you know, and then they go to the Cape and then possibly Team USA, and then they, you know, obviously go into Major League Baseball. That's the right cycle. I I nobody can tell me any differently. That is the right, it's 18, 19, 20. then you sign. Or 19, 20, 21, then you sign. you know, the twenty-two to twenty-four year old in in college baseball, they've already been scouted. They've already been picked apart. they could be good players, very productive college players, but they, you know, unfortunately, you know, you know, Danny, I mean the draft is is is minimizing and it's
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: shrinking. And the opportunity, I mean, look how many major leaguers are in the game today that have been drafted past the 15th round. I mean, those guys won't be coming around anymore. I know I'm going again and off on a little tangent, but I just think
dani: No, it's okay.
John Savage: at the end of the day the families, it's just a a cool rel I see it. I see the care
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: level between the player and and the family and the family and the player and maybe their, you know, their their sons or daughters are in, you know, build a relationship and and, you know, they have access to the beach and they have access to their bikes and, you know, they have access to the weight room somewhere, or, you know, they have a pool table or ping pong table and players are going over there and it's just it's just a cool environment that it's a long ways from Los Angeles. And I also like that, that that they're they're shipped across country and they it's, you know, they're on their own and and and they have
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: to build they have to build relationships that which I love. I love that that that's a big part of them growing up.
dani: and and along those lines too, I'm so curious. A little inside baseball here. We just had Scott Pickler on, who who's been on the Cape and managing for almost three decades for Whitey Red Sox and I how does that collaboration work with, you know, you're you're kind of giving your players up to a new group of leaders, right? You you
John Savage: Yeah. Yeah.
dani: entrust in them and you entrust in your players. How does the collaboration work?
John Savage: Well, i it's it's kind of a fine line, you know. You build relationships, you know these guys for a long, long time. I like spreading guys a around. I mean, I don't I don't I'm not married to one organization to Orleans or YD. I mean, you know, we we do have better relationships or maybe West Coast guys, Kelly Nicholson at Orleans, and of course you got Pick and you got Mitch Carricker at at Hyannis. So I mean there is you know, prior relationships that you build. But they're looking for the following summer like now. I mean, they're talking to me about guys that are incoming high school guys that can get through the draft that, you know, are potential guys now. Angel Cervantes and and Zach Strickland, we set up with Dennis Cook, you know, right about this time last year, before the draft almost. And then Angel goes the 50th pick. you know, he's not gonna make it there. Well, maybe he will make it. You never know. Matt McClain, right? He, you know, he didn't think he was gonna make it. Well, he made it. so I think it's it's they know you, you know them, you ask for their needs, everybody's looking for middle infielders, everybody's looking for bitching, everybody's looking for star player, everybody's
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: looking for that elite freshman. but you know, rosters change so rapidly now that I feel for these guys. I mean the roster changes is I mean you can go to Chatham on Tuesday. And then see a little bit of a different Chatham game team on Thursday. I mean, it's it's crazy. I mean, what they're dealing with, I feel for because guys are literally coming and going. There's agents involved. There's a lot of things going on. But I just like striking up, you know, new relationships, old relationships, knowing what what they how they coach. I don't want to have them be super coaches per se. I don't want them to be like, you know, over overhaul this guy per se. I want this guy to play. I want this guy to have the freedom to to learn on on his own. But you know, you can tweak his, you know, his stance and his path or his his hands or this. And that that's fine. It's baseball. But I think at the end of the day there's trust. You want to trust these guys that that they know what they're doing and they've been in a league a long time. but you know, some of them wanna win. so you gotta, you know, you gotta balance that part of it. because it is a development league. It should be a development league. you know, it it's for the future. It's not about now per se. you're not getting more people at the gate if you win. that that isn't how it works here. You're gonna draw regardless. It's free admission. There is pressure to win, I think, from their organizations per se, but in terms of development, I think they got a great group of coaches here and You know, I'd I'd have the the ability and and the faith to to send him anywhere in the league.
dani: it's it's gotta be such an interesting balance, especially as players evolve.
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: You mentioned there's a lot of people now who are in their ears. And ultimately though, like the the purity of the Cape Cod Baseball League is the compete factor and playing and
John Savage: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
dani: learning how to develop and again being out of your comfort zone. And like you said the word character when we began, and that's exactly what I was thinking too, because I think like as I get a chance to see the major league level more and up close and
John Savage: Yeah. Yeah.
dani: personal, and you you see guys who don't have their best stuff every day, right? Pitchers who don't have their best stuff, but they still have to go compete against major league hitters. And how do they do that? And and where in their background did they learn how to do it? And a lot of times when I get to talk to guys, it is the cape. And it is their time spent there. And you said when you get your guys back, you can tell maybe they stand up a little straighter, they've got more swag,
John Savage: Yeah. Yeah.
dani: their confidence is there. The cape, the cape like adds this compete factor to your guys. Like, can you just dive a little farther into what you get to see? Whether it's the guys you have there right now or guys who have come back in the past.
John Savage: Yeah, I mean maybe a maybe a a tool improves, you know, may maybe their clock improves, maybe their their defensive clock improves, maybe their their two strike improves, maybe their maybe their B game, like you're saying, their B game improves, their C game, maybe you know, you you're you're being ran out there. And and you gotta play and and you gotta it doesn't no one cares how you feel. You gotta give as much as you have on that given night. And and and that's why I always talk to Garrett Cole about those things. I mean, I wanna look at his box score maybe you know a role gets developed maybe they are a starter maybe they are a reliever maybe they are a true versatility everybody's everybody's looking for what's
dani: A leader, right?
John Savage: at it
dani: A leader. Like I feel like they find their voices
John Savage: A leader. Yeah.
dani: too.
John Savage: yeah. I mean, makeup and character, like you're saying. I mean, you, you know, you you hear about things and they'll tell you about guys. You know, you ask questions. Hey, you know, what what's this guy? How's he with his teammates? How is he with the game? How's he with failure? How's he with success? you know, how's what type of communicator? What type of learner? What kind of listener is this guy? I mean, there's so many things that go into a major league player and and we're talking about longevity. We're talking about a long career.
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: We're talking about not making the major leagues, but staying in the major leagues. And it's so cool when you look at a major league roster and you and you go and and dig in and they played in the Cape in in 2000, you know, 2016, and they played at Hyannis and they're an all-star. And I was like, there it is. You know, I mean I mean it's very common really. if you s if you went to college and if you're in the major leaguer, there's a good chance you play in the cape. you know, I don't know what that percentage. It'd be kind of interesting to see what that percentage is, but I I just think that you can learn so much about them. on the field, off the field, when a guy is uncomfortable. You used the word uncomfortable a little a little while ago.
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: That's the best time to evaluate a guy. It's not when he's feeling great and he's comfortable and it's, you know, he's going off. And it it that that for me, that's not the best time to evaluate. The best time to evaluate
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: is is when this guy is facing a roadblock and a little adversity and and a left on left or a right on right in a real tough matchup and or he's 0 for three and how's he playing defense in the eighth inning? what does that look like? You know, I mean there's so many observations that I I I've learned over the years that that mean so much, that really equate to a, you know, a pro player and and a sustainable, legit pro player. And what are the red flags? I mean, what are the red flags? I mean, there there's red flags that come up in players and players' history. And guys do change. you know, culture changes guys. misery loves company. you know, maybe they get in a wrong wrong environment. Maybe it's a losing environment, maybe it's a party environment, maybe it's a, you know, I don't know. It it's an environment that just doesn't allow them to grow as as professionals or even as as amateurs. you know so you get guys in the right environment and then all of a sudden you know their careers take off. you can observe so much and learn so much. and that capes are really good evaluation for me. I mean, I'm evaluating my players, obviously. I'm evaluating guys that are in the portal right now. everybody's doing that. you can still find guys and guys come from everywhere. they just don't come from, you know, certain programs anymore. Baseball is a universal deal and and you know, you see guys that are going off in college or going off in pro baseball and you look back at their baseball card and you're like, What? This guy's from where? And and you know, I mean, you know, that's
dani: Ha ha ha
John Savage: what makes the game so great.
dani: Do you have a favorite moment or a favorite summer that you came out to the Cape and watched a game or watched one of your players or somebody who wasn't on your team but you were wowed by a performance, anything?
John Savage: Caprillian w was fun to watch, at YD, Matt McClain was was fun to watch. Ryan Krylert, Wareham, they won a they won a a championship with with Coach Snedden, who rest in peace. Dun Don passed away. and he was a manager of that team in two thousand nineteen Wareham. I've watched a lot of games on stream. Obviously, you watch all the games a lot of times when you're back at home and you're on the road recruiting and you watch, you know, this outing or this at a at bat and you've you film it. If you're live, I filmed a bunch of at bats Tuesday and Wednesday and you know, so
dani: With your phone?
John Savage: yeah, my phone, yeah, my phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
dani: Вау
John Savage: yeah, I'm I'm high tech. High tech. It's yeah, yeah, doing doing it bats and I mean that's what you do, and then I send back to my coaching staff and and do that and the
dani: I love it.
John Savage: coaching staff and then Brian looks at the hitters and and we can look at the pitchers and deliveries and different things and everybody's doing that. That that's not unique, but it you know, I I would just say you know, there is some wow. You see some guys like, you know. Holy cow. You know, I I I was a USA assistant coach in 2000. We had Ryan Howard and Xavier Nady, Mark Tixera, you know, Mark Pryor, Dewan Brazelton, Bobby Crosby. and then I go back to 2017 when I had Nick Madrigal and Casey Mys and and you know, some real good players back then and a lot of those guys were in the Cape and Ryan Howard back in two thousand, way back in the day. but, you know, I I it it it it it blends together a little bit, I would say, but at the same time,
dani: Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.
John Savage: it just you know, seeing these guys and and and again, seeing what they can do against this sort of competition. They're facing ninety two to ninety five every night. I mean, it it it's no joke. I mean, it's you know, when you when you see eighty eight, you almost, you know, you almost perk up. you know, just so many unique experiences and you see these guys grow.
dani: I mean, I think that number one, you have been doing this for a really long time. Like your your coaching
John Savage: Mm.
dani: days date back to nineteen eighty-eight and Reno and you know,
John Savage: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
dani: watching your journey and your progression, but the pulse that you have on the sport and what makes a great major leaguer, you've done that for a very long time. I think like my last question really is, you know, we've mentioned some foundational things and the sport
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: sports evolve. Baseball has evolved. there there's
John Savage: yeah.
dani: potentially some some massive changes coming to the sport that will impact the college level and the collegiate level that you've
John Savage: Yeah. Yeah.
dani: that you've been in. But what are the things that when you started and to today still ring true to be a a great major leaguer? What do you think?
John Savage: Well, I I think tools. Tools now more than ever. It it's hard that little scrappy grinder guy to to survive. I still
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: think maybe a team maybe has one or two of those guys, maybe. but I I would think mental toughness still builds a major leaguer. The short memory, the long memory major leaguer, they gotta have short memories. They gotta have long memories of certain aspects of the game. they have to be productive players on both sides of the ball. you know that metric has been played out to where defensive metrics and outs and war and and and all those things in terms of you know, production slug. is is now looked at you know as at at a very high rate. OPS
dani: Yeah. King. it feels like. Slug and OPS feel like king.
John Savage: I mean it's it's it's unbelievable. And
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: but I think managers, if you still took a poll of managers, I I still think, you know, they're they're concerned about that nine inning game. They know what goes into a nine inning game, the quality of bats, you know, the the running the pitch count up. you know, it's so hard to hit in the major leagues today, as we all know. They're facing five or six different guys every every bat. I mean You're lucky to see one guy twice. And it's it's
dani: Yes.
John Savage: very rare to see a guy three times. I mean, you know, it's just that information you can get from that pitcher so much. And you know,
dani: Does that change how you coach? Does that change what you do at your level?
John Savage: it's changed a little bit. The usage has changed on on pitching. I would say my fastball percentage used to be, I mean, sixty-five to seventy percent. that's gone way down in in the in the fifties now. You know, the changeup is still a big part of our program. I love the change up. that you know, that helps fastballs and that that disrupts timing. Good pitching is disrupting timing of a hitter. That's for me, that's still the there's still so many foundational parts of the game that are still there. and I think every manager in baseball that they're fully aware of that. The people upstairs,
dani: Yes.
John Savage: I think they're aware of it, but they look at it from a different perspective a lot of times. But I I think there's still parts of the game that are still there. and and you gotta have balance. You gotta have balance between metrics and data and and and human you know confidence and non-confidence and and you know you know guys that can can play every night, guys that are literally backups, I mean, there's you gotta manage people. And I think if you can learn that aspect, you get a lot of help now from the front offices clearly with lineups and and matchups and good matchups and bad matchups. So there there's a lot that goes into winning. And but ultimately it is about winning. you know I I think I know what a winning player looks like. I know how to build a winning player. We know how to put a winning player into a culture of of sustainability. And, you know, it doesn't always pan out that way. But at the end of the day, you know, I think, you know, we're doing our part. And the last thing I would say is I still love
dani: Yeah.
John Savage: evaluation and I still love grading players out with their tools. the field, the throw, the run, the hit, the power. I mean, there's still that part of the game that you got to grade these guys out. And you gotta know what you're getting. And then ultimately you never know what you're getting until you get it. there's there's a lot of factors. There's no guarantees in this game. there's no you know 100% way to do things. There's a lot of different ways to go about it. But I think the history and experience of of dealing with players and dealing with teams I think is a big part of of ultimately winning. And you know there's a lot of factors,
dani: What I love and I can see it and and those who will watch this will see
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: is like I'm not gonna say you're giddy about the game coach, but you have this invigoration and passion for sport, for development, for teaching.
John Savage: Yeah.
dani: And coaching that I think is so important. And I think sometimes gets lost in kind of the there's a little more flash and bang in college baseball, right? And you're talking about NIL and Portal and all that stuff. But at
John Savage: Yeah. Yeah.
dani: the core of it is those who love baseball and love teaching and coaching and supporting
John Savage: Yeah. Yeah.
dani: young men in getting their degrees and becoming great people, great husbands, great sons, great friends, great teammates. And then you know, sending them off in hopes that they continue on that journey. So like I I knew when we got you that this would be fantastic and your your love and affinity and and also support of the Cape and the Cape Cod baseball league is exactly why we wanted to talk to you. So thank you for sharing and and chatting with me.
John Savage: thank you, Tammy. It's it's been a pleasure. It's been fun. you know, it's it's it's an unbelievable league and and it's it's it's it keeps on growing. I just hope that it could you know keep on improving.
dani: UCLA had a record season this year. They fell short of their ultimate goal, but they did see their shortstop, Rock Cholowski, drafted number one overall to the Chicago White Sox this past summer. Now let's get to Chip Hill. He's the head coach at Arizona. So he played on the Cape in 1984 and 1985 for Orleans. And he was coached by Mr. Cape Cod and the commissioner of Cape Cod Baseball League, John Castleberry. These were some of my favorite stories we've heard so far. From Chip's prized summers on the Cape. I'm always excited when I get a chance to see a familiar face, always excited to catch up with Chip Hale, the head coach at the University of Arizona, and also a part of Orleans in 1984 and 1985 on Cape Cod. And I am so excited, coach, to catch up with you and to have you a part of this podcast. How are you doing today?
chip Hale: Doing great. Doing great. Excited to talk about the Cape. And you know, every time I get a chance to get back there as a head coach now there's so many memories that flood, you know, flood through my my mind. And, you know, even being a in the major leagues, whether it was a player or a coach, and every time we'd be in Boston, have a day off, I'd try to get out there and and and enjoy our j enjoy our time, whether it's my wife or my kids.
dani: Well, we're gonna go all the way back and dive into it because I think some of my favorite stories I've heard are are way back and on Cape Cod, and and playing nineteen eighty four and nineteen eighty five. First of all, like bring us into how this came about for you. What what was that phone call like?
chip Hale: Yeah, when so first off, I you know, I came here as a freshman to the University of Arizona and you know, we're talking in the fall and and you know, you're starting to sort of get a feel for whether you're gonna be able to play significant innings and and or if your pitcher is significant, get on the mound. And you know, it looked like I've had a chance to play a little bit. So coach Jerry Stitt, who was our hitting coach at the time, was actually w one of the coaches for the Harwich Mariners. and that was back in the day when college coaches could actually co coach these summer teams, you know, and and things have changed a lot and and for good reasons. but but Coach Stitt was gonna go to Harwich, so he took Joe McGrean, who was a first round pick the next year, and you know, 84 he took him, eighty-five into being a first round pick with the the Cardinals, Garmalet, who's my roommate, and Tommy Henzo. was with him. and I think Jeff Gardner had had gone that that summer too, who was supposed to come and be part of our eighty five team, but ended up signing like the last day before school with the Mets. and so I and he got me a job in in Orleans with John Castleberry, of course, as the head coach. So and I was all alone. You know, I was the only U of A guy on that team. which y i it turned out to be great. You know, you you meet so many unbelievable people and coaches and still to this day I still talk to some of those guys.
dani: All right, so bring us in with you. So John Castleberry and going pretty far from Arizona to go play summer ball. So how did you get there? When you got
chip Hale: Yeah.
dani: there, where were you living?
chip Hale: Yeah. So that's a great Danny, that's a great one because I obviously I grew up in California and in in the Bay Area. and now all of a sudden, you know, I'm flying all the way back to Ball and and and there was no real I I don't know, I don't know how it is now, but I I just was sort of on my own. I got on a plane, got to Boston,
dani: Had you been on a plane before? Okay. You'd been on planes. You were flying.
chip Hale: yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We flew because even in the even in the Pac 10 at that time, we we flew. We I mean, to be frank with you, in college, we traveled way better than I did until I got to the big leagues. I mean,
dani: Ha ha.
chip Hale: it was we we we we were we were we were treated very well. So anyway, get on the
dani: Okay.
chip Hale: plane, get to Boston, and they said take a bus out to the Cape. So I get out of the airport and I'm trying to find this bus station. This Plymouth Brockton line or Brockton. I I I it was like I had no clue. It took me like five hours to figure out how to get on this bus. Got on the bus and finally made it out to Orleans.
dani: Ha ha
chip Hale: went to our little hotel there. and you know, the first night we were we were out and about, all the college kids, you know, we're I'm here I am, at that time 19. And remember at that time in Arizona. you were able to drink legally alcohol at nineteen. There was no twenty yeah, there was no there was no twenty-one
dani: No, I don't remember that.
chip Hale: rule. They they actually put it in when I was twenty and we were all grandfathered
dani: Wow.
chip Hale: in. and the reason why Arizona did it was because they were getting no money for to fix the roads and freeways and highways. So they had to kind of conform to the to the government. But anyway, so we're out there and we're we're having a great time and we and I ended up living out right out by NASA Beach, which is a great spot in a little inlet. with we had we had four guys and it was like in a the basement of a house. It was it was a little apartment with everything. So we we were all kind of on our own. And back then but there was no keys to the house. And we I and Dr. Copkins was the guy that that owned it and retired dentist, great guy. and he just says, you guys come and go as you want. You know, you're on your own. So we had Steve Rudis from Washington, who was a shortstop, Dave Otto, who ended up being a big league pitcher for the A's and you did Cubs games for a long time. and Walter Gillary was our f the third well, the fourth guy with me. and we each had two bunk beds and two bedrooms. and we had a great time, and it was it was car quite an education with with of what life was like, being on your own.
dani: Okay, I love that because you know, we've heard a lot of stories about host families, about having a
chip Hale: Yeah.
dani: job. Did you have a job?
chip Hale: yeah. yeah. We all worked. you know, the funny thing about that was I had obviously job my freshman year, job my sophomore year, and then my junior I didn't get drafted. And I said, I gotta make some money. So I went and played in Kenai, Alaska. I wish I would have come back for a third year in the Cape. I really do. I I was more of that type of person than I wasn't a big fisherman or hunter or You know, stuff like we did in the in mo more in Alaska. But anyway, freshman year I worked at worked at a hotel or motel, I guess, you know, right there on the main strip. and there was a place called the Pancake Maid. And so that was owned by the the the motel. And whenever there was an issue in the morning of a lot of people at the Pancake Maid, they had I think it was Steve and I, Steve Rudis and I We had to go bus tables at the pancake made until like ten or eleven until they were not busy anymore. But my job every morning had to I had to vacuum the pool out, you know, and clean the whole the pool area. And then we basically for the whole summer we painted that motel. So we ba and basically wore the same clothes every day. So I had a pair of five one jeans that was just covered in in like tan paint by the end of the summer. I got I only know what I smelled like when I went in that pancake made to to to bust it. But it was fun because you know there was a ton of at that time, you know, you're 19, you're you're you're on your own. there was a ton of girls from Bowdoin College that
dani: Ha ha.
chip Hale: were working there too. So we all got to be great friends, you know. And so you had a bunch of people you got to meet and and yeah. So then you go dead dog tired and w and go over to the ballpark and play a game or go travel and play a game. And I laugh all the time at my players that when I send them out to Somerville, I don't wanna go, I I'm tired, I need to train, I need to get bigger, I need to get stronger. I said, you're not even doing a job there. You just you have time in the morning to lift, you can eat great, and then go play baseball. If you I go, you want to play professionally, don't you? You know, this is kind of a the start to it. Yeah. So then, yeah, that was my freshman year. So
dani: I love that. I love that. Okay.
chip Hale: that was a blast. I mean, it was hard and it was a really hard job. And
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: we had a guy on the team at that time from Stanford, Pete Stanisak was our second baseman, and he worked for this law firm in town. In Orleans. And I said, man, if I come back next year, I'm getting that job. And sure enough, I did. I worked for the law, the law firm. I wish I could remember the name of it, but they did real estate. they just did title searches. And so I come from the West Coast where there's company title companies and all these different things. In the Cape, there was no such thing. Everything had to be searched by
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: by law firms. So people would, you know, bu go to buy a property, they go to this law firm. And basically I would just drive one of their nice cars from the law firm to Hyannesport to the registry and go to a guy that worked down in the bottom of the registry, give them the address of this place that was being they needed a title search. And then a week later I go back and pick it up. And it was, it would be like a th it was unbelievable. I'd read through them, they'd let me read all of it. And it went back to the pilgrim days of, you know, just searching the title of of all these different properties. So it was a blast. I mean, let me tell you, I was a much more rested person playing my sophomore year in eighty-five than
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: I was in the summer of eighty-four. Eighty-four was was definitely a learning process on how to take care of your
dani: This is incredible. This is exactly what I was hoping it would be, hearing these stories. And I think what's fascinating too is like even though it's changed a little bit, to your point, the kids who do go out there, who do become pros, everyone talks about the fact that you're playing every day, you're playing future big leaguers every single day. Like those things do matter in the big
chip Hale: Yeah.
dani: scheme of things. And there's this, there's this idea, I feel like right now, Chip, where kids need The kids think they need to go do X, Y, and Z. What they probably
chip Hale: yeah.
dani: need to do is just go play and and learn how to win and be
chip Hale: Yes. Yes.
dani: winners and compete with the best of the best. That feels like does that feel right?
chip Hale: Yeah, we we deal Danny, we deal with that on a daily basis here in the summer. I mean, I I don't know
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: how many times hey, I need to come home. You know, I gotta get back in the lab, I gotta get back in, you know, doing these things.
dani: Lamb.
chip Hale: I'm like, how about just watch a guy throw a pitch to you or or learn how to get a guy out, you know, you against him. so we deal with it and we we have to kind of you gotta do both both sides of it. It's tough. one of the great stories of of 84 working in the pancake made. I we the 84 Cape All-Stars played the 1984 Olympic baseball team, coached by
dani: No way.
chip Hale: Coach Dado from USC and all those great stars, McGuire, all those stars. And they stayed at that motel for the game in Chatham that year. And so the day I and I did not, obviously as a freshman, I did not make the All-Star team. So I went to the game, I watched it.
dani: Okay.
chip Hale: And my pa I grew up, my dad was a went to got he was in the he was a superintendent schools by the time he retired, but he was a dean of boys, you know, principal, vice principal, all those things. And he got his PhD in education at USC. So we knew Rod Dado since I was five years old in the in the early 70s, you know. and so Coach Dado knew who I was, and he used to call everybody Tiger. Anyway, so like of course the day they were they were leaving to go to their next spot, they were all eating at the pancake made. And here me Steve and I had to go bust their tables looking like Huckleberry Finn. You know, just just, you know, with a white T shirt and five ones that are all beat up. And so they were all like and I'm a bunch of those guys were in the Pac Ten at the time, so I'd I had played against them. And they were giving me a hard time as I'm as you know having to pick up their their dirty dishes. but it was awesome
dani: Ha ha ha.
chip Hale: because, you know, at the time, and I think that was a cool thing for me. And I think everybody there is I remember watching that game and and and watching, you know, Corey Snyder was playing for for us and just a McGrain pitch and just the great future major leaguers and Hall of Famers that that were on both teams. It was pretty cool.
dani: No, it's so cool.
chip Hale: Back then we used, you know, that university we used aluminum. My f sophomore year we switched to wood.
dani: Okay. And what w how was that?
chip Hale: It was just a that that was when everything started to change. And, you know, they wanted it to be more where scouts could come in and see you as a how how are you gonna compete with a wood bat? You know, you go I go to you know, junior college in Arizona, they use wood bats. I go to all these high school tournaments all summer, it's all wood bats. so that wasn't like that back in the day. I mean, why I played summer all we played American Legion baseball
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: in California, Northern California, and it was it was all aluminum and all the way went to Bordertown. Pennsylvania in the w to play in the Legion World Series one year in eighty two. And it was all it was all aluminum back then. Back now it's all s all summer stuff is wood.
dani: Right. Well, I think it kind of tells you that the Cape has led the way and has been forward thinking and has
chip Hale: Yes.
dani: has been the first to adapt and evolve, right?
chip Hale: Yeah.
dani: I think which is important because it is such a historic and prestigious league. But to your point, recognizing, hey, we probably should switch to the the what bats, things that guys
chip Hale: Yes.
dani: are using in the big leagues. But I want to go back, Chip, because you mentioned John Castleberry. He's the commissioner of the Cape now.
chip Hale: Okay. Right.
dani: He was your coach then. What kind of coach was he?
chip Hale: He was he was crazy, man. He was he was intense. you know, I think some guys, and I've had this said to me before about one our players, I love playing, you know, here or there because we just it was so relaxed and you know, it was summer ball. and we felt that way. John had fun, we had fun, but man, we played to win. I mean, we understood that it was important, it was important to the people of Orleans. To have a good team. You know, we never won the league, but we were very competitive and played hard. and and he he instilled that in us. And he was gonna fight for us. I mean, he got thrown out of numerous games. but he understood it with summer ball. And that's I think, you know, we talk I talked to John the other day about it. cause he he'll shoot things by me. Because it's hard now because kids stay until the draft and they go home. Or they stay until they get a portal deal done and then they go home. And there's way too much turnover in that league. You know, there's way t we had one team and that was it. We were all there the whole time. And it was like a band of brothers. You fought for each other and you went out at night and had fun. You know, you learned how to do that like you have to do in Pro Ball.
dani: Yeah. Yes.
chip Hale: It wasn't like a rotating roster. And I think that's where we're getting into trouble in all these different leagues. And even to the point where in some of the leagues they're get they're actually putting too many guys on the ri initial roster and guys aren't playing enough. I mean, we
dani: Yes.
chip Hale: played every single day. I played third, Stanisek played second, Rudis played sh short, Walter Gillary played center, you know, Dave Otto would hit and pitch.
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: I mean, it was they were awesome guys.
dani: I mean, I I think that they're missing out. I I think that experience, even if it's not what you think is gonna get you to the next level, The state of the game right now, right? There's there's a lot going on. But I think at the core of all of it, and what you've talked about, and what everybody that I've had the chance to talk to, is that at the core of it is like. Can you compete? Do you know how to win? Do you make your bed? Are you willing to get a job? Are you willing to make tough choices for your career? And I'm guessing today, like obviously you're still connected to the Cape and with John, but
chip Hale: Mm-hmm.
dani: like, do you still feel those things are at the core of the sport for you?
chip Hale: not as much. No, not
dani: Okay.
chip Hale: as much. I think, you know, advisors you know, you know, slash agents have become so involved and they and they are looking out which they that's their job. They're looking out for the kid, they're looking out for the best situation. You know,
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: we've been very lucky here. We've had very few guys 'cause we can't we can't compete financially like some of the schools can in the NIL world. But the kids that we bring out of high school, we've been, we've been, you know, knock on wood. We've been lucky of not a lot of them going into the portal. We've had guys we've got out of the portal that have gone back in the next year, which is fine. They're not really truly Wildcats. So we're losing that feel, I think. You know, and I talk to my alumni about it a lot. A lot of our, you know, the guys from the eighty national championship team, the seventy sixth, our eighty six team.
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: and they get upset and I said you can't get upset because it's the new it's the new way of of the world. I do think the successful major league teams are going to find a way to find the guys that you're talking about, Danny. That are the most that
dani: Well I'm seeing it.
chip Hale: that that that value winning, that value playing the just playing baseball and doing it, you know, at a at that level. because I think
dani: Yeah. I'm seeing it.
chip Hale: it's starting to it's starting to move back that way a little bit, right?
dani: Yeah. well I see it. I see it with the Milwaukee Brewers and Pat Murphy. And obviously Murph,
chip Hale: Yeah.
dani: right? Murph comes from college and and Murph
chip Hale: Yeah.
dani: has that background and Murph has people in and around on the field in the dugout who who have that mentality. But there's there's that's the thing about it, I think, and and and it is what the cape encapsulates is is this idea of team, right? I think the sport, there is an aspect of the sport, it's a little too much I. Right now. And it it needs to get back to team and this idea of I was talking to a player about what makes the Brewers so successful. And it is all these guys who are willing to hit a sacrifice fly. They are willing
chip Hale: Right, right.
dani: to take strike three if it means putting a runner in scoring position, knowing the guy behind them can move him over. Right. There's there's all those those little aspects of the game that you're seeing successful teams have, but it's it's tough to find those guys because that's not what the culture is telling kids to do, but but let me let me get back on track here 'cause we could talk talk about this forever. W what are your what when you get a chance to do you go back to the Cape? Have you been back?
chip Hale: Yeah, I went back. I w I actually went my assistant's been there three times this summer at different
dani: Okay.
chip Hale: times. I did haven't gotten back there because we have so many kids coming in on visits for the portal. I'm gonna
dani: Yeah. Okay.
chip Hale: try, I would love to go towards the end here,
dani: Okay.
chip Hale: but probably not gonna make it this year. But I made it my first year. It was a I took my wife, and we had a blast. We were there for a week and just going to all the different venues. I had never, you know, when I was there, there was no Brewster. There was no born. they weren't in the league yet. so and I always give guys a hard time 'cause we have guys playing in Wareham all the time and I'm like, You're not even on the Cape, you know, like I mean you know, the New York Yankees of the Cape always
dani: Well what is your n what
chip Hale: to me were like Orleans, but you it's become,
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: you know, Coach Pickler's done a great job at at
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: Yarmouth Dennis and and they've just dominated that that thing. So
dani: Yes.
chip Hale: Yeah, that part of it and that that's what guy and guys will get upset. They're like, there's no hitting backgrounds, there's no this. I go, You're playing at high schools and junior highs. I mean, that's the beauty of it.
dani: Yeah. Yeah. But what's your but what do you say? What is your response back to them? Because like you you couldn't be a better ringing endorsement for
chip Hale: Right.
dani: what that place can provide. Like what do you say back to them about the experience on the Cape?
chip Hale: Well, we had a player, Mason White, who ended up being a a pretty high pick, third round pick, I think, or yeah, third by the Red Sox. He's having a great year in in A ball. But he ne he played his freshman sophomore years in one in Brewster and then I think one in Hyannis. And he never played well. He never played great. His numbers were never good. But I told him, I said, listen, don't, don't even worry. Just as long as they if you're that bad, they'll get rid of you. Trust me.
dani: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
chip Hale: This is like Pro Bowl now. The th if you don't they don't like so just stick it out. You you know, play wherever
dani: go play.
chip Hale: they tell you to play. If they tell you to go play in the outfield, go have fun, do it. If you're playing second, you're playing third, who cares? And he stuck it out, man. He stuck it out. He struggled against and those are those are big time pitchers in that league. And he struggled against left handed pitchers. He struggled this and that, but he stuck it out. And I think it made him a better player, especially his junior year here. And I it showed scouts that hey he he he was willing to suck to to embrace as as Joe Matton used to say, embrace the suck. You know? And guys
dani: Yeah, yes, yes.
chip Hale: don't have they have if they start to struggle, like we have a kid there right now that's struggling, but he's sticking it out
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: and he's playing and he's trying to win games for the team. And that's that's more important to me than than being the best player in the league right now.
dani: I love it. I love it. The last one I want to ask you is about the people. You mentioned Pick. we had Pick and his son on for an episode here. And, you know, everyone who has come on either talks about him or or I know someone
chip Hale: Yeah.
dani: who knows him. what what do you think matters when it comes to the people who are caring for Cape Cod baseball and for that league? And, you know, John Castleberry and Scott Pickler and and all those people. What what do you think matters about them?
chip Hale: Yeah, I I you know, I'm so happy that Pix, you know, been able to stay this long and and who know who longs who knows how much longer. And that's scary to me because he understands what this league's about. And that's why it's cool that Castle that John's back and in the league because we talked, you know, when he was with the Giants, I'd see him every year at the Area Code games and he had talked about this being kind of a dream for him. And it's super important. And I know he's trying to get things back to what you were talking about, more team and And and having a group that stays the whole time. but that that's in it's it it's like co we talk about culture all the time, whether it's in a college clubhouse, MLB clubhouse, Meyer League Clubhouse. It's the people you put in that in that room. So the culture of the league is the coaches, the the the the host families, all the people that care for the Cape.
dani: Yeah.
chip Hale: and it's it's kind of the last of a of a dying breed, let's face it. And let's hope we can keep keep it that way. And yeah, I have people all the time like I'm gonna go watch, you know, I'm gonna go to the Cape and watch like a week of baseball. I go, it'll be the best week of your life. And they come home and say that. And we don't ever want to lose that.
dani: Yeah. Yeah.
chip Hale: and we don't want it to be, you know, too commercialized. I know we have to move on and and and do things to to raise more money and and all these things, but it's just grassroots baseball. And and you said it best, it's Let's see who wants to win. And and and pick has done a great job at that.
dani: Chipelle, you're awesome. Man, I could talk ball with you all day, but I I know you got a lot going on. There's so much
chip Hale: Ha ha
dani: going on in baseball right now. Thank you for sharing your stories and and your time there. Cause that matters and people hearing you share that and hearing your perspective matters. So thank you.
chip Hale: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
dani: A massive thank you to Arizona head coach Chip Hale and UCLA head coach John Savage for joining me on the CODCA. It is always a treat to get to hear from two of the best in college baseball. Massive congratulations goes out to the Harwich Mariners. They won the Cape Cod Baseball League Championship this summer. And don't forget, we've got brand new episodes for you from some of the most outstanding players from this summer on the Cape, including. UCLA pitcher Angel Cervantes. He played for the Chatham Anglers and he earned the BFC White House Most Outstanding Pitcher of the Year Award. And one more note: congratulations to our friend Scott Pickler. Pick joined us earlier this summer with his son, Jeff, to talk about his history with the Cape Cod League. And he has earned the 2026 Mike Kern Award for Manager of the Year. He's won that. five times now. So huge congratulations to our friend Pick. For my producer, Sarah Lang, I'm Danny Wexelman. Thanks for joining us on the CODCAS.