Speaker A
00:01:01
Foreign.
Speaker B
00:01:07
Welcome back to behind the Studio Door for another glorious episode.
Speaker B
00:01:11
I'm your host, Molly Darling.
Speaker B
00:01:13
And here with me I have my co host and partner, Christian Rivera.
Speaker A
00:01:18
That's me stumbling into the room.
Speaker B
00:01:20
Hey.
Speaker A
00:01:21
Hi, I'm here.
Speaker A
00:01:23
I'm Batman.
Speaker B
00:01:24
You're Batman.
Speaker A
00:01:25
I'm Batman.
Speaker B
00:01:26
Well, the secret's out.
Speaker B
00:01:28
And we also.
Speaker A
00:01:29
Oh, you said my identity are wonderful.
Speaker B
00:01:31
We're gonna move on.
Speaker B
00:01:32
So no one know knows.
Speaker B
00:01:33
Okay.
Speaker B
00:01:34
We have our wonderful producer, Jeromey Chris Lindstrom.
Speaker C
00:01:37
Hello.
Speaker C
00:01:37
Hello.
Speaker C
00:01:38
I'm feeling very gravelly today after The Explore Rochester 10th year retrospective last night.
Speaker B
00:01:44
Way to really get that word retrospective out.
Speaker B
00:01:46
I could tell.
Speaker C
00:01:47
Retrospective.
Speaker A
00:01:48
Wow.
Speaker A
00:01:49
That was a lot going on there.
Speaker A
00:01:50
And just that one statement.
Speaker A
00:01:51
Wow, 10 years and folded into one big thing.
Speaker A
00:01:55
That's fantastic.
Speaker B
00:01:55
And Batman and.
Speaker D
00:01:57
Oh, yeah, that's.
Speaker A
00:01:58
I'm Batman.
Speaker B
00:01:58
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:01:59
And we have two wonderful guests here with us today.
Speaker B
00:02:01
We have Abby Loopy and Derek Durizio.
Speaker B
00:02:04
Abby Loopy is a multidisciplinary resident artist at Mukduk Studio.
Speaker B
00:02:08
After studying physics at rit, Abby fell in love with the vibrant art community of Rochester.
Speaker B
00:02:13
Data analyst and AI safety reach researcher by day, which is super cool.
Speaker B
00:02:18
They spend their evenings exploring acrylic painting, poetry, photography, and whatever sparks their interest.
Speaker B
00:02:24
Abby recently created and ran a multi artist collaborative exhibition titled Positive Masculinity and mukduck Studio, which we're going to get into today.
Speaker B
00:02:32
And Derek Durizio is a men's work facilitator and social worker in the Rochester area.
Speaker B
00:02:37
He leads a bi weekly men's circle and recently co hosted the Positive Masculinity show with Abby and others.
Speaker B
00:02:43
So welcome to the show, you guys.
Speaker D
00:02:45
Thanks for having us.
Speaker E
00:02:46
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker B
00:02:47
Absolutely.
Speaker A
00:02:48
Welcome.
Speaker E
00:02:49
Excited to be here.
Speaker D
00:02:50
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:02:51
On a scale of 1 to 10, how nervous are you?
Speaker A
00:02:54
I feel nervous energy and I like when I feel nervous energy.
Speaker A
00:02:57
I want to erase that from the table.
Speaker A
00:02:59
So what's going on?
Speaker A
00:03:01
How are you feeling from a scale of 1 to 10?
Speaker A
00:03:03
Nervous wise?
Speaker D
00:03:04
Yeah, Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker D
00:03:05
I do feel a little nervous.
Speaker D
00:03:06
First time ever being on a podcast.
Speaker D
00:03:07
This is interesting.
Speaker D
00:03:08
And I also don't often hear my own voice in my headphones unless I'm recording music.
Speaker D
00:03:13
Right.
Speaker D
00:03:14
It's been a minute since then, so.
Speaker D
00:03:17
Yeah, I think just like first timer, I type energy.
Speaker D
00:03:20
Curious to see how this goes.
Speaker A
00:03:21
How about you?
Speaker B
00:03:21
You're doing great so far.
Speaker A
00:03:23
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:03:23
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:03:24
Nervous energy, I think is.
Speaker E
00:03:26
I think is best addressed head on and in public and reported on a podcast.
Speaker E
00:03:32
So thank you for mentioning Captured Forever.
Speaker E
00:03:35
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:03:35
Absolutely.
Speaker E
00:03:37
I'm feeling.
Speaker E
00:03:37
I'm feeling nervous, but I always feel nervous when I'm doing something that I care about.
Speaker E
00:03:42
So I.
Speaker E
00:03:43
Anytime I've been a performer since I could walk, basically, and I don't think I've ever been on stage and not been physically shaking a little bit from nervousness.
Speaker E
00:03:54
So it means I care a lot.
Speaker E
00:03:58
And I can't wait to dive into this conversation with you guys.
Speaker B
00:04:01
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:04:02
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:04:02
And someone.
Speaker B
00:04:03
Someone said that, like, nervous and excitement is the same in the body, too.
Speaker B
00:04:06
You're just like.
Speaker B
00:04:07
It's like your body preparing to make.
Speaker A
00:04:09
A very similar, you know, kind of depends on what it's laced with, but that's a whole different conversation.
Speaker A
00:04:15
I'm not going to go there, but it sounds like what you're talking about is excitement, which is great.
Speaker A
00:04:19
I mean, it's like performers anxiety.
Speaker A
00:04:21
Right?
Speaker A
00:04:21
Like, you're about to go on stage, you're about to talk, you're about to share something.
Speaker A
00:04:24
It's like, you know, I.
Speaker A
00:04:26
Yes.
Speaker A
00:04:27
There's concerns about how I'm going to do.
Speaker A
00:04:28
How I'm going to, you know, something's going to be captured, I want to do it right.
Speaker A
00:04:32
There's all these questions about that, but ultimately it is about excitement, and that's great.
Speaker A
00:04:36
So thank you guys for being here.
Speaker A
00:04:37
Hell, yeah.
Speaker B
00:04:37
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:04:38
And speaking of excitement, I'm.
Speaker B
00:04:39
I'm really excited to talk to you guys about this show, Positive Masculinity, because, number one, like, there's so much we can unpack with just that phrase.
Speaker B
00:04:47
Right.
Speaker B
00:04:47
But also because was it, like, a year ago?
Speaker B
00:04:51
How long ago was it, Abby, that you had this idea?
Speaker B
00:04:54
Because I feel like you mentioned it to me when I had the studio at Mukduck, and it was a really exciting, like, seed of an idea, and to see it come to fruition is really cool.
Speaker B
00:05:03
So tell me about, like, what inspired positive masculinity, the show, and what that means to you.
Speaker E
00:05:09
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker E
00:05:11
One of the reasons.
Speaker E
00:05:12
One of the many reasons I was super excited to join the podcast today is because you, too, are some of the very first people who I talked to about this idea.
Speaker E
00:05:24
And, yeah, it was over a year ago when I was thinking about, you know, I actually.
Speaker E
00:05:30
It might even go a level deeper because part of the thought of this exhibition was when I attended Curves, and.
Speaker B
00:05:41
For everyone who doesn't know, Curves is a group show that I put together two years ago now, I think, yeah, 22.
Speaker B
00:05:49
That's wild.
Speaker B
00:05:50
And it just was an exploration of the female body through the gaze of the female, which was really, really cool.
Speaker E
00:05:59
And all of the glorious forms that it takes.
Speaker E
00:06:01
Yeah, I've struggled a lot growing up, raised as a girl, right.
Speaker E
00:06:06
With my own perception of myself and perception of my body and different body parts too.
Speaker E
00:06:15
And seeing so many different forms not only being discussed and visualized, but loved and celebrated and on a gallery wall blew me away.
Speaker E
00:06:27
It.
Speaker E
00:06:28
I attended one of the, one of the conversations about it too.
Speaker E
00:06:32
And it really struck me how powerful it was to see physical form representations of myself in art and the conversations that it provokes.
Speaker E
00:06:45
And so that was part of the initial idea because I was sitting with all of those amazing feelings and thoughts and was asking myself, well, when was the last time I saw a male form or male figure on a wall?
Speaker E
00:07:02
When was the last time I saw a male model for a figure drawing?
Speaker E
00:07:10
And in my own experience, you know, I'm very involved in the Rochester community.
Speaker E
00:07:15
I can't remember a time.
Speaker E
00:07:17
And that struck me and I started to think about that a little bit more and how it related to my own self perception because I'm non binary, I'm more transmasculine.
Speaker E
00:07:29
And I notice a disconnect between, especially in the queer community, about the championing of loving oneself in all one's flaws and all one's identities and this friction with the idea of masculinity as an entire concept.
Speaker E
00:07:54
And because of that, I found it very difficult to reconcile my identity and my love for myself with the idea that there is a strong component of masculinity present inside me.
Speaker E
00:08:10
And I wanted to see representations and celebrations of masculinity in ways that were not negative, harmful, toxic.
Speaker E
00:08:23
Because a conversation culturally that we have about masculinity, regardless of your background, where, you know, politically or otherwise, it is very rare you hear the word masculinity outside of toxic masculinity.
Speaker E
00:08:38
And I want to change that.
Speaker E
00:08:40
So that's a little bit of where it came from.
Speaker E
00:08:44
Obviously, so many things have informed it and shaped it and evolved it over the time.
Speaker E
00:08:48
But let's start with that.
Speaker A
00:08:50
Yeah, well, and to take that a little further, when you were talking about that initial idea with us, I do remember what stuck out to me is how much you were curious about that experience, like not only tapping into what's within for you and your life experience, but curious about the experience of others.
Speaker A
00:09:09
You know, masculinity in general is a concept, you know, within everybody, but within men and what that looks like in today's society.
Speaker A
00:09:18
So I'm curious about, I guess, like I'm trying to highlight your curiosity about all of that and really asking you to see if there's more you can dive into around, like, your.
Speaker A
00:09:31
Your curiosity about this topic more than anything.
Speaker E
00:09:34
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker E
00:09:37
I think curiosity is the starting point for asking deeper questions.
Speaker E
00:09:43
And I know there's a difference.
Speaker E
00:09:50
Okay, let me start here.
Speaker E
00:09:51
There's a difference between different manifestations of masculinity.
Speaker E
00:09:56
You have different perceptions of it.
Speaker E
00:09:58
There's the relation and relationships.
Speaker E
00:09:59
You have a relationship to masculinity within yourself and how you perceive yourself and how you express masculinity.
Speaker E
00:10:05
You have a relationship to it interpersonally.
Speaker E
00:10:09
Right.
Speaker E
00:10:09
With how you experience and navigate masculinity within other people, especially friend groups or, you know, friends or foes, you know, all these different perceptions.
Speaker E
00:10:21
And then you also have a relationship to it in a broader sense, culturally, societally, globally.
Speaker E
00:10:27
And there are.
Speaker E
00:10:29
There's so much that contributes to what we define it as and how we perceive it.
Speaker E
00:10:36
And I know that being raised as a girl, being broadly perceived as a girl, I don't experience a vast amount of masculinity that other people perceive or impose upon me.
Speaker E
00:10:52
I do in some ways, but not in a lot of ways.
Speaker E
00:10:55
And I was listening a lot to people, especially in the queer community, especially for my partners, how they felt a strong sense of shame about themselves, especially.
Speaker E
00:11:12
Especially in queer spaces, especially amongst people who were not male or not cisgender male to.
Speaker E
00:11:21
Because they embodied this figure, this kind of figurehead, this scariness that other people perceive to be masculine.
Speaker E
00:11:30
And I don't have that experience.
Speaker E
00:11:33
I don't walk down the street and worry that people are gonna be afraid of me just because I look a certain way.
Speaker E
00:11:39
You know, sometimes it's the opposite, but it all sort of ties together in this.
Speaker E
00:11:45
Like, how do people.
Speaker E
00:11:51
How do people conceptualize masculinity?
Speaker E
00:11:53
And also what are the negative effects that are byproducts of what we're doing, which is essentially generalizing about an entire group of people.
Speaker E
00:12:03
And, you know, hey, history shows that's never been a positive thing.
Speaker E
00:12:09
So I'm really curious about how.
Speaker E
00:12:14
How men and boys grow up experiencing masculinity and what that causes within oneself to suppress, to resist, and to ultimately, you know, hide and feel shame about as they try to navigate the world, because that shit's got to be unblocked, right?
Speaker E
00:12:38
We are here collectively as a society, and we cannot show up for each other fully if we are not healed ourselves.
Speaker E
00:12:46
So beautiful.
Speaker A
00:12:48
Cut and print.
Speaker A
00:12:49
We're done.
Speaker E
00:12:50
All right.
Speaker A
00:12:50
Hey, great work.
Speaker B
00:12:52
It's really beautiful, and I really.
Speaker B
00:12:54
I appreciate it.
Speaker B
00:12:55
Like when we were first talking about this idea of the positive masculinity show, I really appreciated the.
Speaker B
00:13:02
The interesting perspective, like, into it being a non binary person, as I am also, and having that thing of like, oh, well, if we're.
Speaker B
00:13:12
I feel like the gift of people who are non binary ultimately is like bringing the feminine and masculine together and not excluding either of those things and really noticing how that is present in all of us.
Speaker B
00:13:25
And then also, like you're saying, asking questions about what the other person across the table from us, what their experience actually is.
Speaker B
00:13:33
And so with that, I'm curious, like, Derek, how was your experience of working with Abby like, coming into this, this show?
Speaker B
00:13:41
Collaboration?
Speaker B
00:13:42
Like, what was that like for you?
Speaker D
00:13:44
Yeah, thanks for asking, Molly.
Speaker D
00:13:46
It was, it was honestly a nice surprise.
Speaker D
00:13:49
Right, because I had only just returned to mukduck back in June and I think you had started talking about it with me maybe in like the fall at some point, something like that.
Speaker D
00:13:58
And, and so coming from the men's work background, I had intended to bring something like this to mukduck, but then to hear that it was already being worked on, it was like, awesome.
Speaker B
00:14:08
Cool.
Speaker D
00:14:08
There are other people in this space that are interested in this and I'm not the only cornerstone of the topic, so to speak.
Speaker D
00:14:15
So.
Speaker D
00:14:15
So the fact that Abby already had a.
Speaker D
00:14:18
What's the word?
Speaker D
00:14:19
Like a launchpad for us to.
Speaker D
00:14:21
To jump off with, it was.
Speaker D
00:14:23
It was nice to collaborate on, and I've also had a lot going on the past few months.
Speaker D
00:14:27
And so it was nice to kind of take a back seat instead and watch somebody else show their colors and really dig into making something happen.
Speaker B
00:14:35
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A
00:14:36
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:14:36
I'm.
Speaker A
00:14:36
I'm really curious about, you know, the theme that I'm seeing between you two and putting this show on and the work that you're doing is that it's.
Speaker A
00:14:47
It's starting to look at the internal world of the masculine experience, the male experience.
Speaker A
00:14:52
And so I'm curious about unpacking a little bit more of what men's work means and what you've been doing relating to that.
Speaker D
00:14:59
For sure.
Speaker D
00:14:59
That's a great question, Christian.
Speaker D
00:15:01
Honestly, my definition of.
Speaker D
00:15:03
My definition of men's work does tend to change year over year.
Speaker D
00:15:07
Right now.
Speaker D
00:15:08
I.
Speaker D
00:15:08
I've been simplifying it down to men doing the internal work to better understand themselves, show up fully and authentically express their best selves and, and become better, whatever that means to the man involved.
Speaker D
00:15:21
And, and so, yeah, it's.
Speaker D
00:15:26
It's a, A mind, body, spiritual, emotional, Field of looking at where our lies and, and where it needs to be corrected.
Speaker A
00:15:38
Yeah, right.
Speaker D
00:15:40
And.
Speaker D
00:15:41
And so with that, it's.
Speaker D
00:15:42
It's like, you know, to quote Daft Punk, our work is never over.
Speaker D
00:15:46
It never quite ends.
Speaker D
00:15:47
And I think that's part of the beauty of the work, is that there's always something more to learn, there's always more growth to be had.
Speaker D
00:15:55
And with that, that's to say that people that have just discovered men's work or self development of really any kind are not necessarily less than.
Speaker D
00:16:05
They're just maybe further back on the path.
Speaker D
00:16:08
And that's where we need elders.
Speaker D
00:16:09
We need people who've been doing it for a while to bring others forward.
Speaker A
00:16:14
And there's an interesting component, like in my mind, I'm thinking of the person who's listening to this that is maybe wrestling with their own internal objections about the idea in general of like, why do we bother celebrating men?
Speaker A
00:16:28
They've only ruined everything.
Speaker A
00:16:30
You know, all of that stuff.
Speaker A
00:16:31
Right.
Speaker A
00:16:32
And I don't necessarily want to take the conversation in that direction, but I want to at least take a moment to try to understand from your perspectives, like how you're approaching something like that in terms of, you know, this two things.
Speaker A
00:16:50
One, there's the cultural notion that if you do something, there must be an opposite.
Speaker A
00:16:55
Right.
Speaker A
00:16:55
So this sort of weird childhood thing that manifests into this adult thing of like, boys and girls are on opposite sides and they're against each other.
Speaker A
00:17:04
And this sort of thing, if you're for men, you must be against women.
Speaker A
00:17:07
If you're for women, you must be against men.
Speaker A
00:17:09
Like, that's, that's a story.
Speaker A
00:17:11
That's, that's a.
Speaker A
00:17:12
That's an assumption, first of all.
Speaker A
00:17:14
And then the second of all, anytime I say that I have a second thing, I forget the second thing.
Speaker E
00:17:19
There's your second thing.
Speaker A
00:17:20
That's my.
Speaker A
00:17:24
Yeah, that's just a thing that happens all the time.
Speaker B
00:17:26
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:17:26
But I can kind of feel where you're going with that.
Speaker B
00:17:29
Like, kind of massaging into that conversation of what is it?
Speaker B
00:17:34
I mean, masculinity in this conversation.
Speaker B
00:17:37
I feel like it's almost like a litmus test in my mind for thinking about the larger cultural scope of like, the conversations that we're having now.
Speaker B
00:17:45
And it's like, oh, well, is it actually about masculinity?
Speaker B
00:17:48
Or like, are we stuck in a very binary us versus them conversation still?
Speaker B
00:17:55
Like, as someone who is non binary, like, you're nodding to Abby, like, it's like, you know, even in queer spaces, even in non queer space, like all these spaces, there's still that like essence of an us versus them that really isn't serving us, especially in the, the world that we're in right now and the things that we're facing.
Speaker B
00:18:14
It's like community is the most important thing.
Speaker B
00:18:16
So then it's like, how do we bring that into the conversation?
Speaker A
00:18:21
And from a meta perspective, I do remember the second thing now.
Speaker A
00:18:24
It was, it was, it was the idea that, that when you're, I mean, when you're going through life, this is like sort of my preachy Mr.
Speaker A
00:18:31
Rogers moment.
Speaker A
00:18:32
But I'm gonna get through it because I think we just need to do.
Speaker A
00:18:36
It's like when you're going through life and you're having your challenges and situations, your life story, whatever it is, like ultimately you end up picking a thing to focus on, at least for periods of time, whatever it may be.
Speaker A
00:18:49
And I think for some people, again, trying to just get through the objection in my head of the person listening potentially is like whatever the person listening has might be their thing that they feel like they need to champion.
Speaker A
00:19:02
And it feels like you both are feeling like this is something important for you personally for very different reasons that you need to champion.
Speaker A
00:19:12
And I'm, I don't have a sense of where to go with that, but, but it feels like this is an important like foundation to lay so that we can talk about other stuff and just get it out of the way.
Speaker D
00:19:25
Sure, sure.
Speaker A
00:19:26
Does that make sense?
Speaker E
00:19:27
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker D
00:19:28
This is, this is great stuff.
Speaker D
00:19:29
I'd love to respond to that first question you had.
Speaker B
00:19:31
Yes, please do.
Speaker D
00:19:31
I think your question was how do we manage this kind of divisiveness?
Speaker D
00:19:36
To paraphrase, in a way, that's a really good question.
Speaker D
00:19:39
And it's, it's near and dear to me because, you know, kind of.
Speaker D
00:19:44
With your second point, I found my way to men's work because back in, what, 2017 or 2018, I, I happen to be seeing online a lot of general criticisms around men.
Speaker D
00:19:55
A lot of it justified.
Speaker D
00:19:57
And being what, 19 at the time, I went through a sort of existential crisis around what does this mean?
Speaker D
00:20:04
I was in pain, I was scared and wondering, like, oh my God, like, I don't feel like I had a ton of guidance growing up around what masculinity is supposed to be and now maybe is the time to figure it out.
Speaker D
00:20:15
And so, and so to the point on, on divisiveness and like, how do we get people to talk to each other again is an ever growing conversation, especially In a world which is super divisive, and to me, it seems increasingly violent in some ways.
Speaker D
00:20:32
And I think off the bat, patience and a willingness to put the ego and the defensiveness at the door, I think is a great place to start.
Speaker D
00:20:44
I won't go off on a huge tangent, but recently I was sitting at the bonfire at one of my favorite bars, and I started talking with this.
Speaker D
00:20:53
This lady in her older 30s.
Speaker D
00:20:54
And to me, it kind of seemed like there was some, like, some standoffishness, which is fine.
Speaker D
00:21:00
And, you know, I was just trying to be friendly.
Speaker D
00:21:01
We ended up having a conversation, and maybe due to the alcohol, she divulged a lot to me around stuff that she has been through with men and how that makes her feel about men and then even about me.
Speaker D
00:21:15
And this became like a pointed, directed thing at me.
Speaker D
00:21:19
And I've never had that in my in person life.
Speaker D
00:21:22
You know, I've witnessed conversations online, y'all.
Speaker D
00:21:24
Sure, sure, we have.
Speaker D
00:21:25
But we're sitting there at the fire, and I'm right next to her, and.
Speaker D
00:21:31
And in one breath she was saying that she doesn't trust me, but then in the other breath, she was allowing herself to open up emotionally and share all this terrible stuff that had happened.
Speaker D
00:21:41
Right.
Speaker D
00:21:42
And I'm glad that I'm at a place in my journey with men's work where I was able to just.
Speaker D
00:21:50
And breathe and just hold it and not be defensive.
Speaker D
00:21:54
And.
Speaker D
00:21:56
And so I think part of the solution here is getting really, you know, both sides, quote, unquote, to be considerate of who they're talking to and really to hold empathy for what they've been through.
Speaker D
00:22:11
Right.
Speaker A
00:22:12
It also feels like in that moment, did you get an opportunity to feel like, oh, she's not actually talking about me.
Speaker D
00:22:20
Exactly.
Speaker D
00:22:21
It wasn't personal.
Speaker D
00:22:22
Eight years ago, I would have felt it as kind of personal.
Speaker D
00:22:24
I would have been defensive or scared or hurt.
Speaker A
00:22:26
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:22:27
But at this point in my journey, I just was like, wow.
Speaker D
00:22:29
Especially with the stuff she was sharing, I was like, no, I mean, this is not about me.
Speaker A
00:22:34
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:22:34
So to.
Speaker A
00:22:35
To kind of hit the.
Speaker A
00:22:37
The.
Speaker A
00:22:37
The potential deep part of the cave and then start to come back out a little bit.
Speaker D
00:22:43
Sure.
Speaker A
00:22:43
Like you mentioned shame, Abby, and shame.
Speaker A
00:22:47
A lot of roads lead to shame for a lot of people, regardless of the topic.
Speaker A
00:22:51
Masculinity is just one of those topics that you double click into, and there's a million things that come out just as you would with any other topic.
Speaker A
00:22:59
Right.
Speaker A
00:22:59
So I'm curious as.
Speaker A
00:23:02
As far as you're willing to go or whatever.
Speaker A
00:23:05
You're, you know, a surface level, whatever comes out for you around this concept of shame related to the masculine topic.
Speaker A
00:23:12
Like what.
Speaker A
00:23:13
What comes up for you, either personally or what you've seen?
Speaker E
00:23:16
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E
00:23:17
I'm willing to dive.
Speaker E
00:23:19
Deep dive.
Speaker E
00:23:20
So something that I have been thinking a whole lot about is masculinity as it relates to adolescence and growing up.
Speaker E
00:23:36
If the only time we discuss masculinity culturally within families, within friends, is its association to the toxic, the harmful, the dangerous, then boys will grow up to believe that that is what they are, and they'll internalize that.
Speaker E
00:23:56
And that brings me great sadness, because when you are inundated with that kind of shame and that kind of belief and no one's really telling you otherwise, then you.
Speaker E
00:24:16
It is very easy to close off, to isolate, to look for community in other harmful manuscripts, festations of masculinity.
Speaker E
00:24:29
Because that was only.
Speaker E
00:24:30
That was the only option, right, that was provided to you.
Speaker E
00:24:33
This idea of, all right, you can either be this kind of man, you know, macho, dominant, powerful, rich, or you cannot exist.
Speaker E
00:24:47
You need to hide.
Speaker E
00:24:49
Of course, that is going to pave the way for boys to seek the option that gives them at least some agency, right?
Speaker E
00:24:59
And I think something that.
Speaker E
00:25:04
Something that comes up as a topic I've seen is this idea of male loneliness.
Speaker E
00:25:09
And they're like, oh, wow, man.
Speaker E
00:25:12
Man are.
Speaker E
00:25:13
Men are lonely.
Speaker E
00:25:14
And it's like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker E
00:25:17
Why, of course they are.
Speaker E
00:25:19
Of course they are.
Speaker E
00:25:21
Of course they are.
Speaker E
00:25:21
Because we're not.
Speaker E
00:25:23
We're not creating the space for them to be part of the conversation.
Speaker E
00:25:27
We're not creating the space to bring them in.
Speaker E
00:25:31
If we only ever describe men as the problem, how can they be part of the solution?
Speaker A
00:25:40
Hell, yeah.
Speaker B
00:25:42
That's a really great place to take a break.
Speaker B
00:25:44
And then we're going to dive right back.
Speaker B
00:25:46
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker C
00:26:25
All right, so I'm going to bring us back from break today because that topic we were hitting on right before was something that resonated with me from, you know, from my past.
Speaker C
00:26:40
You know, that.
Speaker C
00:26:41
That isolation.
Speaker C
00:26:42
When you're younger, you feel like you're the one who's all alone.
Speaker C
00:26:46
You're not understood.
Speaker C
00:26:48
And there's this, you know, the culture of not talking about feelings and things.
Speaker C
00:26:53
So when I was in college, the first.
Speaker C
00:26:58
The first start of the men's rights movement was starting online.
Speaker C
00:27:03
So the first people writing about it were when I was in college.
Speaker C
00:27:06
And most miserable and most alone.
Speaker C
00:27:10
And I think back on that time, not a lot, but I think back on that time.
Speaker C
00:27:16
Because it only would have taken one or two things not happening for me to potentially go down the other road.
Speaker C
00:27:25
And not, not, not in a way where I say that this is inevitable if somebody goes down the thing.
Speaker C
00:27:32
But if you're primed for it, if you're terminally lonely and you're looking for a community that gives you clear, direct answers and people to blame for your loneliness, for all your issues, I look back and I see the proximity that I had to it.
Speaker C
00:27:56
And that was before it was the deluge of it that it is now, where it's constantly pushed at you.
Speaker C
00:28:06
There's these monsters like Andrew Tate out there polluting the younger generations that also feel desperate and they feel even more.
Speaker C
00:28:19
They feel demonized.
Speaker C
00:28:20
They feel like this is the only way out.
Speaker C
00:28:24
I'm not sure I have a clear question, but it's something I really have thought about because it's.
Speaker C
00:28:32
I think there's so many, so many of us that feel like we're much better people now.
Speaker C
00:28:39
But when you're that young, you don't know who you are, you want somebody to tell you that it's okay.
Speaker E
00:28:45
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:28:47
And when fear is the thing you have the most, fear of talking to somebody, fear of putting yourself out there, fear of somebody seeing you for not being a competent person.
Speaker C
00:28:59
How do we help people get to not being afraid when you don't know who you are yet?
Speaker A
00:29:06
Right.
Speaker A
00:29:07
And that's one of the interesting challenges, right, is that we can look back on our past and us growing up and what that meant, especially now.
Speaker A
00:29:15
We're in such a unique time period that we have the Internet and we have these influencers that can encourage us to think a certain way or go a certain direction.
Speaker A
00:29:24
But ultimately, the only thing we can do is, is deal with now and how we go forward.
Speaker A
00:29:31
Which is why I'm really eager to learn more about what's starting to manifest in this show.
Speaker A
00:29:37
Like, what's really unfolding as, you know, one thing we could go back and do and say is just like, our father screwed up, or our mother screwed us up, or society screwed us up or whatever.
Speaker A
00:29:49
Like, those are things that happened.
Speaker E
00:29:51
We can always say that.
Speaker A
00:29:52
We could always say that.
Speaker A
00:29:55
And those are themes that can apply to any of those double click themes that you start into.
Speaker A
00:30:00
Not just masculinity, right?
Speaker A
00:30:01
So.
Speaker A
00:30:02
But it starts to awaken.
Speaker A
00:30:04
Like, what is happening now?
Speaker A
00:30:06
What are the expressions you're starting to see?
Speaker A
00:30:08
How can you communicate?
Speaker A
00:30:10
I would ask you, Derek, first, like, what are some of the stories you're starting to see come out of the.
Speaker A
00:30:15
Of.
Speaker A
00:30:16
Of the event, of the opening, of.
Speaker A
00:30:18
Of what's unfolding in regards to this.
Speaker A
00:30:22
This show, this movement that you're both a part of.
Speaker A
00:30:25
Does that make sense as a question?
Speaker D
00:30:27
Give me a little more specific, a little more succinct.
Speaker B
00:30:31
Like, I can take it.
Speaker B
00:30:32
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker B
00:30:34
What are the ways that this show, positive masculinity, has really evolved and maybe brought some unexpected things, because obviously you worked together and then there were two more collaborators.
Speaker B
00:30:46
Right.
Speaker B
00:30:46
So you guys work together to bring.
Speaker B
00:30:48
It's a group show like Curves was.
Speaker B
00:30:50
So there's all kinds of different voices, and I'm curious if there were surprising threads and conversations that have come out of this show so far that's still ongoing.
Speaker D
00:31:03
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:31:03
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:31:04
So I think Abby might be better able to speak to this in general, but I think, you know, after the opening reception, I was amazed at one.
Speaker D
00:31:13
The turnout.
Speaker D
00:31:15
Right.
Speaker D
00:31:15
Like, we had dozens of people coming out to see this.
Speaker E
00:31:18
Over 40.
Speaker D
00:31:19
Over 40 people.
Speaker D
00:31:20
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:31:21
On a Sunday afternoon, which, like, sure, people tend to be free, but, yeah, the enthusiasm was great.
Speaker D
00:31:28
People were inquisitive and curious and asking questions and, like, actually looking at the art and.
Speaker D
00:31:34
And so, yeah, the interest was already super cool to see.
Speaker D
00:31:38
Apart from that, I had some really interesting conversations with people that had shown up for the event to the point where, like, take, for example, with.
Speaker D
00:31:46
With one of these guys who actually had already shown up to the men's circle a couple weeks prior.
Speaker D
00:31:53
He and I got into this deep conversation about the linguistics of masculine and feminine, those two words, and.
Speaker D
00:32:00
And where they come from and whether or not they're needed.
Speaker D
00:32:02
And it was funny because at least in person, I've had these conversations online in person.
Speaker D
00:32:07
I don't think I had tapped into somebody that is thinking in those ways or having those conversations in their own mind here in Rochester.
Speaker D
00:32:16
And so for me, it was like, whoa.
Speaker D
00:32:17
Like, I've been doing this work online and with my guys out in Colorado at Uncivilized for going on five years, but there are also people here in Rochester talking about this.
Speaker D
00:32:28
So, you know, to bring it local was, like, mind blowing, maybe.
Speaker D
00:32:31
Abby, do you have any more to add?
Speaker B
00:32:33
In person show sparks, conversations and relationships.
Speaker E
00:32:36
It's really, who knew?
Speaker B
00:32:38
Who knew Headline.
Speaker E
00:32:42
And that's something that.
Speaker E
00:32:46
That's something that's so, so important to me.
Speaker E
00:32:49
And I think the value of in person, face to face, not zoom interactions, cannot be underst.
Speaker E
00:32:59
Overstated, because we.
Speaker E
00:33:05
And it's not just men, too.
Speaker E
00:33:07
Like, people everywhere feel isolated, and it's by design.
Speaker E
00:33:15
Right.
Speaker E
00:33:16
Our institutions are.
Speaker E
00:33:18
And I could go down a rabbit hole here, right?
Speaker E
00:33:19
But our institutions, we're really designed, like, from our neighborhoods to our schools to our workplaces, they're all designed to keep everybody, you know, in their cubicle doing.
Speaker B
00:33:29
They're still very industrial world when we are, as humans, in a totally different place.
Speaker B
00:33:34
And so there's a mismatch between what we actually need and what's happening.
Speaker E
00:33:38
What we need.
Speaker A
00:33:39
We're a transition.
Speaker E
00:33:40
What we actually need is more human to human connection, contact, conversation.
Speaker E
00:33:47
Just somebody looking at you, smiling, makes your whole day.
Speaker E
00:33:52
That makes your whole day.
Speaker E
00:33:53
That changes everything.
Speaker E
00:33:54
And beyond that, somebody who looks at you, who really sees you, who wants to hear what you have to say, and engages in a conversation that can change your whole life.
Speaker E
00:34:05
And I am so humbled that the opening reception was a vehicle for some of that, because we saw incredible.
Speaker E
00:34:16
Like, if you look around the room, we have photos from the event.
Speaker E
00:34:19
There are just groups of people that I think they grew.
Speaker E
00:34:23
Like, there was a little circle, and then they expanded throughout the night, just having conversations, really getting to know each other, you know, sharing their thoughts, their experiences, and their compassionate understanding of one another and of the idea of masculinity and just really, really happy to talk about it.
Speaker E
00:34:43
This is something that people have been itching to talk about, and I felt that every single time I brought it up to somebody, right?
Speaker E
00:34:50
I'd say, hey, I'm doing the show.
Speaker E
00:34:51
It's called positive masculinity.
Speaker E
00:34:53
They'd go, huh.
Speaker B
00:34:55
Interesting, right?
Speaker E
00:34:56
Because have you.
Speaker E
00:34:58
When was the last time you heard that phrase?
Speaker E
00:35:00
Right, right.
Speaker A
00:35:00
It's funny to.
Speaker B
00:35:02
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:35:02
And that's art, right?
Speaker B
00:35:03
Like, to me, to bring it to the show itself, like, that's.
Speaker B
00:35:07
That's what good art does, is it evokes a conversation or a reaction, any conversation, and more connection.
Speaker B
00:35:14
And I feel like that's what positive masculinity as a show has done really well.
Speaker B
00:35:19
It's like you are sparking conversation that, like, you mentioned Derek, like, oh, you're surprised to hear that someone was thinking this.
Speaker B
00:35:25
And I think my theory is that the longer that this goes on and the more that we talk about these things, the more surprised we're all going to be to be like, oh, actually, a lot of people are thinking about these things, and because of maybe the Internet rhetoric or the separation or the things that we're used to kind of silencing ourselves, that there's a lot that needs to blossom that's happening internally.
Speaker B
00:35:47
And this show is really allowing that.
Speaker B
00:35:49
To come forward.
Speaker B
00:35:50
So I'm curious about what the process was of putting together the art exhibition itself.
Speaker B
00:35:55
And, like, how did you guys.
Speaker B
00:35:56
How did you.
Speaker B
00:35:57
How did you choose?
Speaker B
00:35:58
And.
Speaker B
00:35:59
And what was that process like?
Speaker B
00:36:01
And I haven't seen the show yet, but it looks, based on the pictures, like, there's a beautiful range of expression and types of people.
Speaker B
00:36:11
So tell me about that process.
Speaker E
00:36:13
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E
00:36:14
And I.
Speaker E
00:36:16
One of my favorite parts about collecting submissions and talking to people about it was the reaction of, oh, I don't know, what would I submit?
Speaker E
00:36:32
Right.
Speaker E
00:36:32
Like, what?
Speaker E
00:36:33
Hmm.
Speaker E
00:36:33
And it really.
Speaker E
00:36:34
It made them think.
Speaker E
00:36:35
Like, that's a challenging question.
Speaker E
00:36:37
But then it made them think, why is that a challenging question?
Speaker E
00:36:40
Right?
Speaker E
00:36:41
So.
Speaker E
00:36:41
And that's exactly the.
Speaker E
00:36:42
Right.
Speaker E
00:36:43
I.
Speaker B
00:36:44
It was the whole thing.
Speaker E
00:36:45
This show would have been a success if I just had the title, right?
Speaker E
00:36:48
Because all I wanted was for people to think about it a little bit more.
Speaker E
00:36:52
And the selection process.
Speaker E
00:36:57
It was a juried exhibition, so we had a panel of four.
Speaker E
00:36:59
It was myself, Derek, Casey, and Carson.
Speaker E
00:37:03
And the.
Speaker E
00:37:05
Really, the.
Speaker E
00:37:06
The philosophy of our selection was, does this person have something to say?
Speaker E
00:37:14
And really, it came down to the.
Speaker E
00:37:18
The question, why does this.
Speaker E
00:37:20
Why does this piece connect to the theme?
Speaker E
00:37:21
Or how does it connect to the theme?
Speaker E
00:37:23
And if they had something to say about their own experience, you know, a take that resonated with the theme, then they're in.
Speaker E
00:37:31
If the art looks good, then, hey, that's a cherry on top.
Speaker B
00:37:34
Right?
Speaker E
00:37:34
Right.
Speaker E
00:37:35
Because you know this.
Speaker E
00:37:37
That's not what it's about.
Speaker E
00:37:38
Right.
Speaker E
00:37:38
At the end of the day, art.
Speaker B
00:37:39
Is the conversation and the question that you sparked in the beginning.
Speaker E
00:37:42
The art is just.
Speaker E
00:37:44
Look, the pieces are the vehicle.
Speaker E
00:37:45
Right?
Speaker E
00:37:46
Like, the real art is what happened at the opening reception and what's happening now, opening up this conversation, bringing more people in.
Speaker E
00:37:56
And it was really fascinating to see all the different manifestations of positive masculinity.
Speaker E
00:38:02
I.
Speaker E
00:38:02
I don't know about you, Derek, but I loved seeing how differently everyone sort of interpreted it.
Speaker E
00:38:10
One piece was an abstract fiber art of a person that they thought embodied positive masculinity to its fullest.
Speaker E
00:38:21
One was a.
Speaker E
00:38:25
A digital art piece of how body horror can evoke feel like strong feelings, and how gore and horror is used to illustrate systems of oppression or, you know, shame, and how, you know, an alternative perspective on that can illustrate just as strong of a feeling of positivity or hope or joy.
Speaker E
00:38:57
And the fact that everyone had so many different interpretations of it just speaks to the idea that there is so much to uncover and to talk about when people are offered the space and the attention.
Speaker E
00:39:15
But yeah, I want to see.
Speaker E
00:39:17
Derek, if you have any other thoughts to add too.
Speaker D
00:39:19
Sure.
Speaker D
00:39:20
Refresh the question for me, if you could.
Speaker B
00:39:21
Yeah, just like the process of putting the show together and actually doing that curation process of.
Speaker B
00:39:27
Of what came up for.
Speaker B
00:39:29
Is this the first time you've co curated a show or have you done this before?
Speaker A
00:39:32
Okay.
Speaker D
00:39:32
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:39:32
No first time entirely.
Speaker D
00:39:34
Well, I guess I did have my own art show years ago at Starry Nights Cafe, but a group show is.
Speaker B
00:39:40
A whole different thing.
Speaker D
00:39:41
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:39:41
Because you're seeing all these perspectives from all these people.
Speaker B
00:39:44
So I'm wondering, like, what stood out to you in that process.
Speaker D
00:39:47
Sure.
Speaker D
00:39:48
So I think initially for me, it was the sensation of, like, male or masculine voices are already so quiet and shut down often that I would like to bring in everybody.
Speaker D
00:40:02
But with the curated art show, we couldn't have everybody.
Speaker D
00:40:05
How many did we have total submit?
Speaker E
00:40:08
I believe it was 15 local artists.
Speaker D
00:40:10
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker D
00:40:11
So we got pretty close to that number anyway, but we don't have unlimited space on the walls.
Speaker B
00:40:15
Right.
Speaker D
00:40:15
And so, yeah, I think that was a potent realization that, like, wow, I.
Speaker D
00:40:20
I don't want to have to shut anybody down.
Speaker D
00:40:21
I'm sure everybody has something decent enough to say and.
Speaker D
00:40:25
And we'll be a vehicle for good conversation.
Speaker A
00:40:28
Apart from that, when you say male and masculine voices are shut down, you mean from, like, internal expression, to be specific?
Speaker D
00:40:36
Yeah, Yeah, I think kind of like we were saying earlier at one point, it's.
Speaker D
00:40:43
I think with the online rhetoric, since maybe 2017 or 18, society has shifted toward asking men to not speak, do not share what's on your mind.
Speaker D
00:40:53
We don't want to hear your thoughts.
Speaker D
00:40:54
And that happens to be damaging, especially when it's coming in droves.
Speaker D
00:41:00
Especially when it's coming from the headlines or from celebrities or these gigantic influencers like Andrew.
Speaker D
00:41:06
Well, not Andrew Tate.
Speaker C
00:41:08
Yeah, the opposite.
Speaker D
00:41:10
The opposite of Andrew Tate.
Speaker C
00:41:11
Well, I think for me, he's top.
Speaker D
00:41:12
Of mind right now.
Speaker C
00:41:13
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:41:14
Tying back to what I mentioned earlier is, I think it's the.
Speaker C
00:41:19
The, you know, expressing yourself with that the macho attitude is accepted, but the vulnerability, speaking vulnerably, speaking honestly, speaking of fears and the other things, fear and pain and, you know, growth and those things, that's the thing that seems to be most repressed and the thing people most need to get out to feel better or try to feel better.
Speaker D
00:41:48
Yeah, that was well said.
Speaker A
00:41:49
Right.
Speaker A
00:41:49
And so throughout the show and the submissions and selections you guys have made, like, what.
Speaker A
00:41:56
What Maybe are some patterns or themes of.
Speaker A
00:41:59
Of some of those expressions that are starting to.
Speaker A
00:42:02
That have come through.
Speaker A
00:42:03
It's not just the conversations, but, like, some of the topics.
Speaker D
00:42:07
A word just came to mind.
Speaker D
00:42:08
It's exactly what I want to talk about.
Speaker D
00:42:10
Freedom.
Speaker D
00:42:11
Freedom.
Speaker D
00:42:11
I think men and masculine folk are craving freedom right now.
Speaker D
00:42:16
There's one piece in the art show.
Speaker D
00:42:18
Maybe you'll remember the name of this person.
Speaker D
00:42:21
It's a yellow painting of sorts with a lot of, like, things coming out of the heart type region.
Speaker E
00:42:27
Yes, yes.
Speaker E
00:42:27
That is a Smith's piece.
Speaker D
00:42:29
Yeah, Smith.
Speaker E
00:42:31
That's the digital piece I was talking about, actually.
Speaker D
00:42:34
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker D
00:42:34
Like, the visual of that, like having this kind of explosive energy coming outward and there's a lot of emotion to it and dripping net it.
Speaker D
00:42:43
You know, the painting itself felt like an expression of what this person has been dying to express and maybe hadn't expressed until they made this painting.
Speaker D
00:42:50
Right, right.
Speaker D
00:42:51
And that visual also, for me, because, you know, I'm not remembering a ton of pieces off the top of my head right now, also resonated with my piece around freedom and going against the powers that be that want to keep us silenced or.
Speaker D
00:43:03
Or subservient.
Speaker A
00:43:05
Right.
Speaker D
00:43:05
So.
Speaker D
00:43:06
So, yeah, I think freedom is something that.
Speaker D
00:43:08
That men and masculine folk crave, especially these past seven, eight years, that the.
Speaker D
00:43:13
The needle really shifted toward men stop talking.
Speaker A
00:43:17
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:43:17
So as a result of the show and.
Speaker A
00:43:19
And maybe some of the.
Speaker A
00:43:21
The direction this is going, like, where do you feel like, what do you want to see more of?
Speaker E
00:43:32
I want to see more of.
Speaker E
00:43:38
I want to see more imperfect activism.
Speaker E
00:43:42
I think that there can be.
Speaker E
00:43:46
There is an obsession with calling people out.
Speaker E
00:43:52
And, you know, we talk about cancel culture a lot.
Speaker E
00:43:56
We talk about, all right, somebody does something wrong, they must be condemned.
Speaker E
00:44:00
They do this thing, then they're unforgivable.
Speaker B
00:44:02
They're not human.
Speaker B
00:44:03
They just must be fucked up.
Speaker E
00:44:04
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:44:05
As if we don't all make mistakes.
Speaker E
00:44:07
As if we don't fuck up every single day constantly.
Speaker E
00:44:09
Right.
Speaker E
00:44:10
And I think.
Speaker E
00:44:12
I think people are desperate to be validated as an imperfect person showing up with a good intention.
Speaker E
00:44:23
Right.
Speaker E
00:44:24
And I think men are very frequently shut out of conversations, especially in the social justice movement or in, you know, community betterment, that kind of thing, because we're like, oh, we've heard enough from you.
Speaker E
00:44:36
You know, you take up space in all these other areas, which men's voices do take up a lot of space in a lot of areas.
Speaker E
00:44:43
But again, solution oriented.
Speaker E
00:44:47
Right.
Speaker E
00:44:48
If we want men to come in, enter the conversation, be Part of the solution then we gotta talk to them.
Speaker E
00:44:54
Right.
Speaker E
00:44:54
And we gotta be imperfect.
Speaker E
00:44:56
We gotta show up just as they're showing up.
Speaker E
00:45:01
So, yeah, I'm really, I want to see more of like, compassionate, understanding.
Speaker E
00:45:10
People are not going to say the right things all the time.
Speaker E
00:45:13
And that's okay.
Speaker E
00:45:15
I use they.
Speaker E
00:45:16
Them pronouns.
Speaker E
00:45:17
If I am in the street and somebody says, oh, excuse me, ma'am, you know, great.
Speaker E
00:45:22
Like they're being polite, you know, if they listen, like, just as we hope other people will understand how best to interact with and respect us, we need to understand from a humble and empathetic perspective how to respect and understand other people.
Speaker E
00:45:42
So I want to see more authentic, fearless conversation, regardless of your preconceived notions of another person, because that's the only way.
Speaker E
00:45:52
That's the only way we're going to move forward.
Speaker E
00:45:54
Community.
Speaker C
00:45:55
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:45:55
And that, that intent, right.
Speaker C
00:45:57
I think intent is hard to judge when you feel vulnerable because like, hey, I would have, I would have made the same mistake.
Speaker D
00:46:04
Yeah, right, right.
Speaker C
00:46:06
I probably would have used a different pronouns and you would have said other ones.
Speaker C
00:46:09
I'm like, oh, cool, thanks.
Speaker B
00:46:11
And that's all it takes really, is that connective moment of.
Speaker B
00:46:14
Because I feel the same way as a non binary person.
Speaker B
00:46:16
I'm like, I don't understand why we're so up in arms about languaging in a moment when it's like, it could be a moment for connection.
Speaker B
00:46:23
Right.
Speaker B
00:46:23
It's like, oh, actually, you know, it's not, it's not a personal thing, you.
Speaker A
00:46:27
Know, and it's something that's really important as we start to kind of land the plane here that we, we didn't really get into.
Speaker A
00:46:35
But this is my last abstract question, so we don't get too crazy deep.
Speaker A
00:46:39
But you know, we've, we've sort of conflated as the, A lot of people do, this idea of male and masculine and female and feminine, but they are all separate ideas.
Speaker A
00:46:51
Feminine masculine is more of like this abstraction.
Speaker A
00:46:54
Right.
Speaker A
00:46:55
And you talked about it at the top of the show, Abby.
Speaker A
00:46:57
Like, you are trying to understand your inner masculine experience, feeling that naturally and wanting to bring that out and express that.
Speaker A
00:47:06
So how has the process of this show helped you tap into that inner masculine?
Speaker A
00:47:11
What are you learning about that inner masculine?
Speaker A
00:47:13
And I'll ask you the same question, Derek.
Speaker A
00:47:14
Like, how has this supported your, your, your growth in your understanding of masculinity?
Speaker A
00:47:23
Either one of you want to go first?
Speaker D
00:47:25
Sure.
Speaker D
00:47:26
So, yeah, I think I felt it most at the opening reception being on the stage and Witnessing everybody listening to what was being said on stage, whether it was me talking or the other, like, five or six people talking about their art or Carson and I talking about the show, just to have people intently listening and then sometimes responding or asking questions showed to me that, wow, what we are doing is cultivating my own leadership skills.
Speaker D
00:47:59
And it's this interesting thing where when somebody steps up to lead a conversation, it also plants a nugget or seed in everybody else's minds that, like, whoa, I can also be having those conversations or maybe even leading them.
Speaker D
00:48:15
Right.
Speaker D
00:48:15
So, yeah, I think it.
Speaker D
00:48:17
It spurred a little bit of growth in me in the leadership aspect.
Speaker D
00:48:21
Like, I'll pause there.
Speaker B
00:48:22
I don't know.
Speaker B
00:48:23
That's beautiful.
Speaker D
00:48:24
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:48:24
Yeah, Abby, that's fantastic.
Speaker E
00:48:28
Something.
Speaker E
00:48:28
Something that you said earlier stood out to me, too.
Speaker E
00:48:31
It was about how we aren't really shown what it is to be a positively masculine person.
Speaker E
00:48:46
And I think it's always valuable to understand, you know, the inverse.
Speaker E
00:48:53
Right.
Speaker E
00:48:53
What.
Speaker E
00:48:53
What do I not want to embody?
Speaker E
00:48:55
What do I not want to be?
Speaker E
00:48:58
But it is.
Speaker E
00:49:02
I think we're.
Speaker E
00:49:04
We don't have as much of a focus on, oh, well, what are the positive examples?
Speaker E
00:49:10
Like, what example do I follow?
Speaker E
00:49:12
Who is somebody I do want to be like?
Speaker E
00:49:15
And how can I express myself and my masculinity in a way?
Speaker E
00:49:19
What does healthy masculinity look like?
Speaker E
00:49:23
And speaking of, we have a workshop coming up on March 17th that actually discusses what is healthy masculinity.
Speaker E
00:49:33
And so the foundation of this conversation is going to be input from our community members of what masculinity means to you, or what does a masculine person.
Speaker E
00:49:44
Who's a masculine person you look up to and why?
Speaker E
00:49:48
And we're really excited to just host this dialogue to understand, hey, how do we embody what we want?
Speaker E
00:49:58
How do we redefine masculinity to be something that we aspire to as opposed to shield away from?
Speaker E
00:50:07
And I think really engaging in this type of conversation brings people hope.
Speaker B
00:50:14
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:50:16
Because it's like opening.
Speaker B
00:50:18
Opening doors as opposed to closing them.
Speaker E
00:50:20
Yes.
Speaker B
00:50:20
You know, and.
Speaker B
00:50:22
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:50:23
And as we're closing out, I would love for you guys to talk more about, because you've got, like, a month long full of themed events that go with the positive masculinity show.
Speaker B
00:50:33
So tell us a little bit about that and what folks can expect and where they can find you all that good stuff.
Speaker E
00:50:38
Sure.
Speaker E
00:50:39
So first of all, let's see.
Speaker E
00:50:42
Yeah, we have a whole month of events, Positive Masculinity month.
Speaker E
00:50:45
We also have A fundraiser going on.
Speaker E
00:50:47
So if you'd like to donate anything to support our projects and our planning.
Speaker E
00:50:51
But we have a whole bunch of events, including a few themed creative mixers where you can stop by the studio, walk around, meet up fellow creatives, engage in some of the discussions, see the art, and then some music events.
Speaker E
00:51:10
There's one going on tonight called Dude Music.
Speaker E
00:51:12
Definitely don't miss that.
Speaker B
00:51:14
What a great title.
Speaker D
00:51:15
Little jam session.
Speaker E
00:51:16
Little jam session.
Speaker E
00:51:17
And Derek, you want to share about some men's groups going on?
Speaker D
00:51:21
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:51:21
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:51:22
So like I mentioned earlier, I.
Speaker D
00:51:24
I lead and facilitate bi weekly Men's Circle.
Speaker D
00:51:27
You might also hear the term men's group thrown around.
Speaker D
00:51:30
There's a few of them in the Rochester area.
Speaker D
00:51:31
Some of them are spread out, but.
Speaker D
00:51:34
So, yeah, I recently restarted this chapter of Men's circle back in July.
Speaker D
00:51:39
I work with an organization called Uncivilized out in Colorado.
Speaker D
00:51:42
And our basic concept is that society and the powers that be have conditioned us into a civilized paradigm, which is not serving us very well as men.
Speaker D
00:51:56
Whether it's the macho man paradigm or the nice guy paradigm, which kind of get bucketed into the civilized paradigm, neither of those things are serving us.
Speaker D
00:52:06
And so the alternative to that is the uncivilized paradigm where men, like I mentioned earlier with the men's work definition, are living full, authentic, freely expressed lives which are raw, real, and relational.
Speaker D
00:52:20
And so I've been working with those guys out in Colorado for close to five years now.
Speaker D
00:52:25
And so my version of a men's circle is at a base level, a general support group.
Speaker D
00:52:31
Right.
Speaker D
00:52:32
Come in, check in about your life.
Speaker D
00:52:34
What's going on?
Speaker D
00:52:35
What do you want to talk about?
Speaker D
00:52:36
What do you want to vent about?
Speaker D
00:52:37
What can we celebrate together?
Speaker D
00:52:39
What can we hold each other accountable to?
Speaker D
00:52:41
Let's all bring it here.
Speaker D
00:52:42
And it's a confidential, private space over at mukduck Studio.
Speaker B
00:52:45
That's awesome.
Speaker D
00:52:46
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:52:47
And where can folks go to find all the information about this stuff?
Speaker E
00:52:51
Yes, Please check out Mukduck Studio on Instagram.
Speaker E
00:52:56
You can also go to mukdukstudio.org we have a calendar of events there.
Speaker E
00:53:00
And then we'll be posting any upcoming events on our Instagram as they come up.
Speaker B
00:53:06
Amazing.
Speaker B
00:53:07
Well, this has been awesome.
Speaker B
00:53:08
Thank you guys both so much for coming on the show today.
Speaker E
00:53:11
Thank you.
Speaker A
00:53:12
Thank you so much.
Speaker A
00:53:12
All this sounds really good to be Batman.
Speaker A
00:53:14
I mean, Batman talking about being a man, because I think I'm a man and I like to think people look up to me as a man.
Speaker A
00:53:22
But, you know, I'D like freedom.
Speaker A
00:53:24
I like the freedom to fly around.
Speaker A
00:53:26
And I like to go do things.
Speaker A
00:53:27
I win my Bat Signal.
Speaker A
00:53:31
This has been a presentation of the Lunchadore Podcast Network.
Speaker C
00:53:41
Macho.
Speaker C
00:53:42
Macho man.
Speaker C
00:53:43
What does it mean, a macho man?
Speaker C
00:53:45
Anger, fear and shame.
Speaker C
00:53:47
I don't want to be a macho.
Speaker C
00:53:49
You can tell a real man, he has a funky walk.
Speaker C
00:53:52
His western shirts or streetwear always look so sharp.
Speaker C
00:53:57
Funky with his vibes, still vulnerable.
Speaker C
00:53:59
Call him Mr.
Speaker C
00:54:00
Confident.
Speaker C
00:54:01
Really himself.
00:01:01
Foreign.
Speaker B
00:01:07
Welcome back to behind the Studio Door for another glorious episode.
Speaker B
00:01:11
I'm your host, Molly Darling.
Speaker B
00:01:13
And here with me I have my co host and partner, Christian Rivera.
Speaker A
00:01:18
That's me stumbling into the room.
Speaker B
00:01:20
Hey.
Speaker A
00:01:21
Hi, I'm here.
Speaker A
00:01:23
I'm Batman.
Speaker B
00:01:24
You're Batman.
Speaker A
00:01:25
I'm Batman.
Speaker B
00:01:26
Well, the secret's out.
Speaker B
00:01:28
And we also.
Speaker A
00:01:29
Oh, you said my identity are wonderful.
Speaker B
00:01:31
We're gonna move on.
Speaker B
00:01:32
So no one know knows.
Speaker B
00:01:33
Okay.
Speaker B
00:01:34
We have our wonderful producer, Jeromey Chris Lindstrom.
Speaker C
00:01:37
Hello.
Speaker C
00:01:37
Hello.
Speaker C
00:01:38
I'm feeling very gravelly today after The Explore Rochester 10th year retrospective last night.
Speaker B
00:01:44
Way to really get that word retrospective out.
Speaker B
00:01:46
I could tell.
Speaker C
00:01:47
Retrospective.
Speaker A
00:01:48
Wow.
Speaker A
00:01:49
That was a lot going on there.
Speaker A
00:01:50
And just that one statement.
Speaker A
00:01:51
Wow, 10 years and folded into one big thing.
Speaker A
00:01:55
That's fantastic.
Speaker B
00:01:55
And Batman and.
Speaker D
00:01:57
Oh, yeah, that's.
Speaker A
00:01:58
I'm Batman.
Speaker B
00:01:58
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:01:59
And we have two wonderful guests here with us today.
Speaker B
00:02:01
We have Abby Loopy and Derek Durizio.
Speaker B
00:02:04
Abby Loopy is a multidisciplinary resident artist at Mukduk Studio.
Speaker B
00:02:08
After studying physics at rit, Abby fell in love with the vibrant art community of Rochester.
Speaker B
00:02:13
Data analyst and AI safety reach researcher by day, which is super cool.
Speaker B
00:02:18
They spend their evenings exploring acrylic painting, poetry, photography, and whatever sparks their interest.
Speaker B
00:02:24
Abby recently created and ran a multi artist collaborative exhibition titled Positive Masculinity and mukduck Studio, which we're going to get into today.
Speaker B
00:02:32
And Derek Durizio is a men's work facilitator and social worker in the Rochester area.
Speaker B
00:02:37
He leads a bi weekly men's circle and recently co hosted the Positive Masculinity show with Abby and others.
Speaker B
00:02:43
So welcome to the show, you guys.
Speaker D
00:02:45
Thanks for having us.
Speaker E
00:02:46
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker B
00:02:47
Absolutely.
Speaker A
00:02:48
Welcome.
Speaker E
00:02:49
Excited to be here.
Speaker D
00:02:50
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:02:51
On a scale of 1 to 10, how nervous are you?
Speaker A
00:02:54
I feel nervous energy and I like when I feel nervous energy.
Speaker A
00:02:57
I want to erase that from the table.
Speaker A
00:02:59
So what's going on?
Speaker A
00:03:01
How are you feeling from a scale of 1 to 10?
Speaker A
00:03:03
Nervous wise?
Speaker D
00:03:04
Yeah, Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker D
00:03:05
I do feel a little nervous.
Speaker D
00:03:06
First time ever being on a podcast.
Speaker D
00:03:07
This is interesting.
Speaker D
00:03:08
And I also don't often hear my own voice in my headphones unless I'm recording music.
Speaker D
00:03:13
Right.
Speaker D
00:03:14
It's been a minute since then, so.
Speaker D
00:03:17
Yeah, I think just like first timer, I type energy.
Speaker D
00:03:20
Curious to see how this goes.
Speaker A
00:03:21
How about you?
Speaker B
00:03:21
You're doing great so far.
Speaker A
00:03:23
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:03:23
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:03:24
Nervous energy, I think is.
Speaker E
00:03:26
I think is best addressed head on and in public and reported on a podcast.
Speaker E
00:03:32
So thank you for mentioning Captured Forever.
Speaker E
00:03:35
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:03:35
Absolutely.
Speaker E
00:03:37
I'm feeling.
Speaker E
00:03:37
I'm feeling nervous, but I always feel nervous when I'm doing something that I care about.
Speaker E
00:03:42
So I.
Speaker E
00:03:43
Anytime I've been a performer since I could walk, basically, and I don't think I've ever been on stage and not been physically shaking a little bit from nervousness.
Speaker E
00:03:54
So it means I care a lot.
Speaker E
00:03:58
And I can't wait to dive into this conversation with you guys.
Speaker B
00:04:01
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:04:02
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:04:02
And someone.
Speaker B
00:04:03
Someone said that, like, nervous and excitement is the same in the body, too.
Speaker B
00:04:06
You're just like.
Speaker B
00:04:07
It's like your body preparing to make.
Speaker A
00:04:09
A very similar, you know, kind of depends on what it's laced with, but that's a whole different conversation.
Speaker A
00:04:15
I'm not going to go there, but it sounds like what you're talking about is excitement, which is great.
Speaker A
00:04:19
I mean, it's like performers anxiety.
Speaker A
00:04:21
Right?
Speaker A
00:04:21
Like, you're about to go on stage, you're about to talk, you're about to share something.
Speaker A
00:04:24
It's like, you know, I.
Speaker A
00:04:26
Yes.
Speaker A
00:04:27
There's concerns about how I'm going to do.
Speaker A
00:04:28
How I'm going to, you know, something's going to be captured, I want to do it right.
Speaker A
00:04:32
There's all these questions about that, but ultimately it is about excitement, and that's great.
Speaker A
00:04:36
So thank you guys for being here.
Speaker A
00:04:37
Hell, yeah.
Speaker B
00:04:37
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:04:38
And speaking of excitement, I'm.
Speaker B
00:04:39
I'm really excited to talk to you guys about this show, Positive Masculinity, because, number one, like, there's so much we can unpack with just that phrase.
Speaker B
00:04:47
Right.
Speaker B
00:04:47
But also because was it, like, a year ago?
Speaker B
00:04:51
How long ago was it, Abby, that you had this idea?
Speaker B
00:04:54
Because I feel like you mentioned it to me when I had the studio at Mukduck, and it was a really exciting, like, seed of an idea, and to see it come to fruition is really cool.
Speaker B
00:05:03
So tell me about, like, what inspired positive masculinity, the show, and what that means to you.
Speaker E
00:05:09
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker E
00:05:11
One of the reasons.
Speaker E
00:05:12
One of the many reasons I was super excited to join the podcast today is because you, too, are some of the very first people who I talked to about this idea.
Speaker E
00:05:24
And, yeah, it was over a year ago when I was thinking about, you know, I actually.
Speaker E
00:05:30
It might even go a level deeper because part of the thought of this exhibition was when I attended Curves, and.
Speaker B
00:05:41
For everyone who doesn't know, Curves is a group show that I put together two years ago now, I think, yeah, 22.
Speaker B
00:05:49
That's wild.
Speaker B
00:05:50
And it just was an exploration of the female body through the gaze of the female, which was really, really cool.
Speaker E
00:05:59
And all of the glorious forms that it takes.
Speaker E
00:06:01
Yeah, I've struggled a lot growing up, raised as a girl, right.
Speaker E
00:06:06
With my own perception of myself and perception of my body and different body parts too.
Speaker E
00:06:15
And seeing so many different forms not only being discussed and visualized, but loved and celebrated and on a gallery wall blew me away.
Speaker E
00:06:27
It.
Speaker E
00:06:28
I attended one of the, one of the conversations about it too.
Speaker E
00:06:32
And it really struck me how powerful it was to see physical form representations of myself in art and the conversations that it provokes.
Speaker E
00:06:45
And so that was part of the initial idea because I was sitting with all of those amazing feelings and thoughts and was asking myself, well, when was the last time I saw a male form or male figure on a wall?
Speaker E
00:07:02
When was the last time I saw a male model for a figure drawing?
Speaker E
00:07:10
And in my own experience, you know, I'm very involved in the Rochester community.
Speaker E
00:07:15
I can't remember a time.
Speaker E
00:07:17
And that struck me and I started to think about that a little bit more and how it related to my own self perception because I'm non binary, I'm more transmasculine.
Speaker E
00:07:29
And I notice a disconnect between, especially in the queer community, about the championing of loving oneself in all one's flaws and all one's identities and this friction with the idea of masculinity as an entire concept.
Speaker E
00:07:54
And because of that, I found it very difficult to reconcile my identity and my love for myself with the idea that there is a strong component of masculinity present inside me.
Speaker E
00:08:10
And I wanted to see representations and celebrations of masculinity in ways that were not negative, harmful, toxic.
Speaker E
00:08:23
Because a conversation culturally that we have about masculinity, regardless of your background, where, you know, politically or otherwise, it is very rare you hear the word masculinity outside of toxic masculinity.
Speaker E
00:08:38
And I want to change that.
Speaker E
00:08:40
So that's a little bit of where it came from.
Speaker E
00:08:44
Obviously, so many things have informed it and shaped it and evolved it over the time.
Speaker E
00:08:48
But let's start with that.
Speaker A
00:08:50
Yeah, well, and to take that a little further, when you were talking about that initial idea with us, I do remember what stuck out to me is how much you were curious about that experience, like not only tapping into what's within for you and your life experience, but curious about the experience of others.
Speaker A
00:09:09
You know, masculinity in general is a concept, you know, within everybody, but within men and what that looks like in today's society.
Speaker A
00:09:18
So I'm curious about, I guess, like I'm trying to highlight your curiosity about all of that and really asking you to see if there's more you can dive into around, like, your.
Speaker A
00:09:31
Your curiosity about this topic more than anything.
Speaker E
00:09:34
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker E
00:09:37
I think curiosity is the starting point for asking deeper questions.
Speaker E
00:09:43
And I know there's a difference.
Speaker E
00:09:50
Okay, let me start here.
Speaker E
00:09:51
There's a difference between different manifestations of masculinity.
Speaker E
00:09:56
You have different perceptions of it.
Speaker E
00:09:58
There's the relation and relationships.
Speaker E
00:09:59
You have a relationship to masculinity within yourself and how you perceive yourself and how you express masculinity.
Speaker E
00:10:05
You have a relationship to it interpersonally.
Speaker E
00:10:09
Right.
Speaker E
00:10:09
With how you experience and navigate masculinity within other people, especially friend groups or, you know, friends or foes, you know, all these different perceptions.
Speaker E
00:10:21
And then you also have a relationship to it in a broader sense, culturally, societally, globally.
Speaker E
00:10:27
And there are.
Speaker E
00:10:29
There's so much that contributes to what we define it as and how we perceive it.
Speaker E
00:10:36
And I know that being raised as a girl, being broadly perceived as a girl, I don't experience a vast amount of masculinity that other people perceive or impose upon me.
Speaker E
00:10:52
I do in some ways, but not in a lot of ways.
Speaker E
00:10:55
And I was listening a lot to people, especially in the queer community, especially for my partners, how they felt a strong sense of shame about themselves, especially.
Speaker E
00:11:12
Especially in queer spaces, especially amongst people who were not male or not cisgender male to.
Speaker E
00:11:21
Because they embodied this figure, this kind of figurehead, this scariness that other people perceive to be masculine.
Speaker E
00:11:30
And I don't have that experience.
Speaker E
00:11:33
I don't walk down the street and worry that people are gonna be afraid of me just because I look a certain way.
Speaker E
00:11:39
You know, sometimes it's the opposite, but it all sort of ties together in this.
Speaker E
00:11:45
Like, how do people.
Speaker E
00:11:51
How do people conceptualize masculinity?
Speaker E
00:11:53
And also what are the negative effects that are byproducts of what we're doing, which is essentially generalizing about an entire group of people.
Speaker E
00:12:03
And, you know, hey, history shows that's never been a positive thing.
Speaker E
00:12:09
So I'm really curious about how.
Speaker E
00:12:14
How men and boys grow up experiencing masculinity and what that causes within oneself to suppress, to resist, and to ultimately, you know, hide and feel shame about as they try to navigate the world, because that shit's got to be unblocked, right?
Speaker E
00:12:38
We are here collectively as a society, and we cannot show up for each other fully if we are not healed ourselves.
Speaker E
00:12:46
So beautiful.
Speaker A
00:12:48
Cut and print.
Speaker A
00:12:49
We're done.
Speaker E
00:12:50
All right.
Speaker A
00:12:50
Hey, great work.
Speaker B
00:12:52
It's really beautiful, and I really.
Speaker B
00:12:54
I appreciate it.
Speaker B
00:12:55
Like when we were first talking about this idea of the positive masculinity show, I really appreciated the.
Speaker B
00:13:02
The interesting perspective, like, into it being a non binary person, as I am also, and having that thing of like, oh, well, if we're.
Speaker B
00:13:12
I feel like the gift of people who are non binary ultimately is like bringing the feminine and masculine together and not excluding either of those things and really noticing how that is present in all of us.
Speaker B
00:13:25
And then also, like you're saying, asking questions about what the other person across the table from us, what their experience actually is.
Speaker B
00:13:33
And so with that, I'm curious, like, Derek, how was your experience of working with Abby like, coming into this, this show?
Speaker B
00:13:41
Collaboration?
Speaker B
00:13:42
Like, what was that like for you?
Speaker D
00:13:44
Yeah, thanks for asking, Molly.
Speaker D
00:13:46
It was, it was honestly a nice surprise.
Speaker D
00:13:49
Right, because I had only just returned to mukduck back in June and I think you had started talking about it with me maybe in like the fall at some point, something like that.
Speaker D
00:13:58
And, and so coming from the men's work background, I had intended to bring something like this to mukduck, but then to hear that it was already being worked on, it was like, awesome.
Speaker B
00:14:08
Cool.
Speaker D
00:14:08
There are other people in this space that are interested in this and I'm not the only cornerstone of the topic, so to speak.
Speaker D
00:14:15
So.
Speaker D
00:14:15
So the fact that Abby already had a.
Speaker D
00:14:18
What's the word?
Speaker D
00:14:19
Like a launchpad for us to.
Speaker D
00:14:21
To jump off with, it was.
Speaker D
00:14:23
It was nice to collaborate on, and I've also had a lot going on the past few months.
Speaker D
00:14:27
And so it was nice to kind of take a back seat instead and watch somebody else show their colors and really dig into making something happen.
Speaker B
00:14:35
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A
00:14:36
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:14:36
I'm.
Speaker A
00:14:36
I'm really curious about, you know, the theme that I'm seeing between you two and putting this show on and the work that you're doing is that it's.
Speaker A
00:14:47
It's starting to look at the internal world of the masculine experience, the male experience.
Speaker A
00:14:52
And so I'm curious about unpacking a little bit more of what men's work means and what you've been doing relating to that.
Speaker D
00:14:59
For sure.
Speaker D
00:14:59
That's a great question, Christian.
Speaker D
00:15:01
Honestly, my definition of.
Speaker D
00:15:03
My definition of men's work does tend to change year over year.
Speaker D
00:15:07
Right now.
Speaker D
00:15:08
I.
Speaker D
00:15:08
I've been simplifying it down to men doing the internal work to better understand themselves, show up fully and authentically express their best selves and, and become better, whatever that means to the man involved.
Speaker D
00:15:21
And, and so, yeah, it's.
Speaker D
00:15:26
It's a, A mind, body, spiritual, emotional, Field of looking at where our lies and, and where it needs to be corrected.
Speaker A
00:15:38
Yeah, right.
Speaker D
00:15:40
And.
Speaker D
00:15:41
And so with that, it's.
Speaker D
00:15:42
It's like, you know, to quote Daft Punk, our work is never over.
Speaker D
00:15:46
It never quite ends.
Speaker D
00:15:47
And I think that's part of the beauty of the work, is that there's always something more to learn, there's always more growth to be had.
Speaker D
00:15:55
And with that, that's to say that people that have just discovered men's work or self development of really any kind are not necessarily less than.
Speaker D
00:16:05
They're just maybe further back on the path.
Speaker D
00:16:08
And that's where we need elders.
Speaker D
00:16:09
We need people who've been doing it for a while to bring others forward.
Speaker A
00:16:14
And there's an interesting component, like in my mind, I'm thinking of the person who's listening to this that is maybe wrestling with their own internal objections about the idea in general of like, why do we bother celebrating men?
Speaker A
00:16:28
They've only ruined everything.
Speaker A
00:16:30
You know, all of that stuff.
Speaker A
00:16:31
Right.
Speaker A
00:16:32
And I don't necessarily want to take the conversation in that direction, but I want to at least take a moment to try to understand from your perspectives, like how you're approaching something like that in terms of, you know, this two things.
Speaker A
00:16:50
One, there's the cultural notion that if you do something, there must be an opposite.
Speaker A
00:16:55
Right.
Speaker A
00:16:55
So this sort of weird childhood thing that manifests into this adult thing of like, boys and girls are on opposite sides and they're against each other.
Speaker A
00:17:04
And this sort of thing, if you're for men, you must be against women.
Speaker A
00:17:07
If you're for women, you must be against men.
Speaker A
00:17:09
Like, that's, that's a story.
Speaker A
00:17:11
That's, that's a.
Speaker A
00:17:12
That's an assumption, first of all.
Speaker A
00:17:14
And then the second of all, anytime I say that I have a second thing, I forget the second thing.
Speaker E
00:17:19
There's your second thing.
Speaker A
00:17:20
That's my.
Speaker A
00:17:24
Yeah, that's just a thing that happens all the time.
Speaker B
00:17:26
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:17:26
But I can kind of feel where you're going with that.
Speaker B
00:17:29
Like, kind of massaging into that conversation of what is it?
Speaker B
00:17:34
I mean, masculinity in this conversation.
Speaker B
00:17:37
I feel like it's almost like a litmus test in my mind for thinking about the larger cultural scope of like, the conversations that we're having now.
Speaker B
00:17:45
And it's like, oh, well, is it actually about masculinity?
Speaker B
00:17:48
Or like, are we stuck in a very binary us versus them conversation still?
Speaker B
00:17:55
Like, as someone who is non binary, like, you're nodding to Abby, like, it's like, you know, even in queer spaces, even in non queer space, like all these spaces, there's still that like essence of an us versus them that really isn't serving us, especially in the, the world that we're in right now and the things that we're facing.
Speaker B
00:18:14
It's like community is the most important thing.
Speaker B
00:18:16
So then it's like, how do we bring that into the conversation?
Speaker A
00:18:21
And from a meta perspective, I do remember the second thing now.
Speaker A
00:18:24
It was, it was, it was the idea that, that when you're, I mean, when you're going through life, this is like sort of my preachy Mr.
Speaker A
00:18:31
Rogers moment.
Speaker A
00:18:32
But I'm gonna get through it because I think we just need to do.
Speaker A
00:18:36
It's like when you're going through life and you're having your challenges and situations, your life story, whatever it is, like ultimately you end up picking a thing to focus on, at least for periods of time, whatever it may be.
Speaker A
00:18:49
And I think for some people, again, trying to just get through the objection in my head of the person listening potentially is like whatever the person listening has might be their thing that they feel like they need to champion.
Speaker A
00:19:02
And it feels like you both are feeling like this is something important for you personally for very different reasons that you need to champion.
Speaker A
00:19:12
And I'm, I don't have a sense of where to go with that, but, but it feels like this is an important like foundation to lay so that we can talk about other stuff and just get it out of the way.
Speaker D
00:19:25
Sure, sure.
Speaker A
00:19:26
Does that make sense?
Speaker E
00:19:27
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker D
00:19:28
This is, this is great stuff.
Speaker D
00:19:29
I'd love to respond to that first question you had.
Speaker B
00:19:31
Yes, please do.
Speaker D
00:19:31
I think your question was how do we manage this kind of divisiveness?
Speaker D
00:19:36
To paraphrase, in a way, that's a really good question.
Speaker D
00:19:39
And it's, it's near and dear to me because, you know, kind of.
Speaker D
00:19:44
With your second point, I found my way to men's work because back in, what, 2017 or 2018, I, I happen to be seeing online a lot of general criticisms around men.
Speaker D
00:19:55
A lot of it justified.
Speaker D
00:19:57
And being what, 19 at the time, I went through a sort of existential crisis around what does this mean?
Speaker D
00:20:04
I was in pain, I was scared and wondering, like, oh my God, like, I don't feel like I had a ton of guidance growing up around what masculinity is supposed to be and now maybe is the time to figure it out.
Speaker D
00:20:15
And so, and so to the point on, on divisiveness and like, how do we get people to talk to each other again is an ever growing conversation, especially In a world which is super divisive, and to me, it seems increasingly violent in some ways.
Speaker D
00:20:32
And I think off the bat, patience and a willingness to put the ego and the defensiveness at the door, I think is a great place to start.
Speaker D
00:20:44
I won't go off on a huge tangent, but recently I was sitting at the bonfire at one of my favorite bars, and I started talking with this.
Speaker D
00:20:53
This lady in her older 30s.
Speaker D
00:20:54
And to me, it kind of seemed like there was some, like, some standoffishness, which is fine.
Speaker D
00:21:00
And, you know, I was just trying to be friendly.
Speaker D
00:21:01
We ended up having a conversation, and maybe due to the alcohol, she divulged a lot to me around stuff that she has been through with men and how that makes her feel about men and then even about me.
Speaker D
00:21:15
And this became like a pointed, directed thing at me.
Speaker D
00:21:19
And I've never had that in my in person life.
Speaker D
00:21:22
You know, I've witnessed conversations online, y'all.
Speaker D
00:21:24
Sure, sure, we have.
Speaker D
00:21:25
But we're sitting there at the fire, and I'm right next to her, and.
Speaker D
00:21:31
And in one breath she was saying that she doesn't trust me, but then in the other breath, she was allowing herself to open up emotionally and share all this terrible stuff that had happened.
Speaker D
00:21:41
Right.
Speaker D
00:21:42
And I'm glad that I'm at a place in my journey with men's work where I was able to just.
Speaker D
00:21:50
And breathe and just hold it and not be defensive.
Speaker D
00:21:54
And.
Speaker D
00:21:56
And so I think part of the solution here is getting really, you know, both sides, quote, unquote, to be considerate of who they're talking to and really to hold empathy for what they've been through.
Speaker D
00:22:11
Right.
Speaker A
00:22:12
It also feels like in that moment, did you get an opportunity to feel like, oh, she's not actually talking about me.
Speaker D
00:22:20
Exactly.
Speaker D
00:22:21
It wasn't personal.
Speaker D
00:22:22
Eight years ago, I would have felt it as kind of personal.
Speaker D
00:22:24
I would have been defensive or scared or hurt.
Speaker A
00:22:26
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:22:27
But at this point in my journey, I just was like, wow.
Speaker D
00:22:29
Especially with the stuff she was sharing, I was like, no, I mean, this is not about me.
Speaker A
00:22:34
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:22:34
So to.
Speaker A
00:22:35
To kind of hit the.
Speaker A
00:22:37
The.
Speaker A
00:22:37
The potential deep part of the cave and then start to come back out a little bit.
Speaker D
00:22:43
Sure.
Speaker A
00:22:43
Like you mentioned shame, Abby, and shame.
Speaker A
00:22:47
A lot of roads lead to shame for a lot of people, regardless of the topic.
Speaker A
00:22:51
Masculinity is just one of those topics that you double click into, and there's a million things that come out just as you would with any other topic.
Speaker A
00:22:59
Right.
Speaker A
00:22:59
So I'm curious as.
Speaker A
00:23:02
As far as you're willing to go or whatever.
Speaker A
00:23:05
You're, you know, a surface level, whatever comes out for you around this concept of shame related to the masculine topic.
Speaker A
00:23:12
Like what.
Speaker A
00:23:13
What comes up for you, either personally or what you've seen?
Speaker E
00:23:16
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E
00:23:17
I'm willing to dive.
Speaker E
00:23:19
Deep dive.
Speaker E
00:23:20
So something that I have been thinking a whole lot about is masculinity as it relates to adolescence and growing up.
Speaker E
00:23:36
If the only time we discuss masculinity culturally within families, within friends, is its association to the toxic, the harmful, the dangerous, then boys will grow up to believe that that is what they are, and they'll internalize that.
Speaker E
00:23:56
And that brings me great sadness, because when you are inundated with that kind of shame and that kind of belief and no one's really telling you otherwise, then you.
Speaker E
00:24:16
It is very easy to close off, to isolate, to look for community in other harmful manuscripts, festations of masculinity.
Speaker E
00:24:29
Because that was only.
Speaker E
00:24:30
That was the only option, right, that was provided to you.
Speaker E
00:24:33
This idea of, all right, you can either be this kind of man, you know, macho, dominant, powerful, rich, or you cannot exist.
Speaker E
00:24:47
You need to hide.
Speaker E
00:24:49
Of course, that is going to pave the way for boys to seek the option that gives them at least some agency, right?
Speaker E
00:24:59
And I think something that.
Speaker E
00:25:04
Something that comes up as a topic I've seen is this idea of male loneliness.
Speaker E
00:25:09
And they're like, oh, wow, man.
Speaker E
00:25:12
Man are.
Speaker E
00:25:13
Men are lonely.
Speaker E
00:25:14
And it's like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker E
00:25:17
Why, of course they are.
Speaker E
00:25:19
Of course they are.
Speaker E
00:25:21
Of course they are.
Speaker E
00:25:21
Because we're not.
Speaker E
00:25:23
We're not creating the space for them to be part of the conversation.
Speaker E
00:25:27
We're not creating the space to bring them in.
Speaker E
00:25:31
If we only ever describe men as the problem, how can they be part of the solution?
Speaker A
00:25:40
Hell, yeah.
Speaker B
00:25:42
That's a really great place to take a break.
Speaker B
00:25:44
And then we're going to dive right back.
Speaker B
00:25:46
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker C
00:26:25
All right, so I'm going to bring us back from break today because that topic we were hitting on right before was something that resonated with me from, you know, from my past.
Speaker C
00:26:40
You know, that.
Speaker C
00:26:41
That isolation.
Speaker C
00:26:42
When you're younger, you feel like you're the one who's all alone.
Speaker C
00:26:46
You're not understood.
Speaker C
00:26:48
And there's this, you know, the culture of not talking about feelings and things.
Speaker C
00:26:53
So when I was in college, the first.
Speaker C
00:26:58
The first start of the men's rights movement was starting online.
Speaker C
00:27:03
So the first people writing about it were when I was in college.
Speaker C
00:27:06
And most miserable and most alone.
Speaker C
00:27:10
And I think back on that time, not a lot, but I think back on that time.
Speaker C
00:27:16
Because it only would have taken one or two things not happening for me to potentially go down the other road.
Speaker C
00:27:25
And not, not, not in a way where I say that this is inevitable if somebody goes down the thing.
Speaker C
00:27:32
But if you're primed for it, if you're terminally lonely and you're looking for a community that gives you clear, direct answers and people to blame for your loneliness, for all your issues, I look back and I see the proximity that I had to it.
Speaker C
00:27:56
And that was before it was the deluge of it that it is now, where it's constantly pushed at you.
Speaker C
00:28:06
There's these monsters like Andrew Tate out there polluting the younger generations that also feel desperate and they feel even more.
Speaker C
00:28:19
They feel demonized.
Speaker C
00:28:20
They feel like this is the only way out.
Speaker C
00:28:24
I'm not sure I have a clear question, but it's something I really have thought about because it's.
Speaker C
00:28:32
I think there's so many, so many of us that feel like we're much better people now.
Speaker C
00:28:39
But when you're that young, you don't know who you are, you want somebody to tell you that it's okay.
Speaker E
00:28:45
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:28:47
And when fear is the thing you have the most, fear of talking to somebody, fear of putting yourself out there, fear of somebody seeing you for not being a competent person.
Speaker C
00:28:59
How do we help people get to not being afraid when you don't know who you are yet?
Speaker A
00:29:06
Right.
Speaker A
00:29:07
And that's one of the interesting challenges, right, is that we can look back on our past and us growing up and what that meant, especially now.
Speaker A
00:29:15
We're in such a unique time period that we have the Internet and we have these influencers that can encourage us to think a certain way or go a certain direction.
Speaker A
00:29:24
But ultimately, the only thing we can do is, is deal with now and how we go forward.
Speaker A
00:29:31
Which is why I'm really eager to learn more about what's starting to manifest in this show.
Speaker A
00:29:37
Like, what's really unfolding as, you know, one thing we could go back and do and say is just like, our father screwed up, or our mother screwed us up, or society screwed us up or whatever.
Speaker A
00:29:49
Like, those are things that happened.
Speaker E
00:29:51
We can always say that.
Speaker A
00:29:52
We could always say that.
Speaker A
00:29:55
And those are themes that can apply to any of those double click themes that you start into.
Speaker A
00:30:00
Not just masculinity, right?
Speaker A
00:30:01
So.
Speaker A
00:30:02
But it starts to awaken.
Speaker A
00:30:04
Like, what is happening now?
Speaker A
00:30:06
What are the expressions you're starting to see?
Speaker A
00:30:08
How can you communicate?
Speaker A
00:30:10
I would ask you, Derek, first, like, what are some of the stories you're starting to see come out of the.
Speaker A
00:30:15
Of.
Speaker A
00:30:16
Of the event, of the opening, of.
Speaker A
00:30:18
Of what's unfolding in regards to this.
Speaker A
00:30:22
This show, this movement that you're both a part of.
Speaker A
00:30:25
Does that make sense as a question?
Speaker D
00:30:27
Give me a little more specific, a little more succinct.
Speaker B
00:30:31
Like, I can take it.
Speaker B
00:30:32
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker B
00:30:34
What are the ways that this show, positive masculinity, has really evolved and maybe brought some unexpected things, because obviously you worked together and then there were two more collaborators.
Speaker B
00:30:46
Right.
Speaker B
00:30:46
So you guys work together to bring.
Speaker B
00:30:48
It's a group show like Curves was.
Speaker B
00:30:50
So there's all kinds of different voices, and I'm curious if there were surprising threads and conversations that have come out of this show so far that's still ongoing.
Speaker D
00:31:03
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:31:03
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:31:04
So I think Abby might be better able to speak to this in general, but I think, you know, after the opening reception, I was amazed at one.
Speaker D
00:31:13
The turnout.
Speaker D
00:31:15
Right.
Speaker D
00:31:15
Like, we had dozens of people coming out to see this.
Speaker E
00:31:18
Over 40.
Speaker D
00:31:19
Over 40 people.
Speaker D
00:31:20
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:31:21
On a Sunday afternoon, which, like, sure, people tend to be free, but, yeah, the enthusiasm was great.
Speaker D
00:31:28
People were inquisitive and curious and asking questions and, like, actually looking at the art and.
Speaker D
00:31:34
And so, yeah, the interest was already super cool to see.
Speaker D
00:31:38
Apart from that, I had some really interesting conversations with people that had shown up for the event to the point where, like, take, for example, with.
Speaker D
00:31:46
With one of these guys who actually had already shown up to the men's circle a couple weeks prior.
Speaker D
00:31:53
He and I got into this deep conversation about the linguistics of masculine and feminine, those two words, and.
Speaker D
00:32:00
And where they come from and whether or not they're needed.
Speaker D
00:32:02
And it was funny because at least in person, I've had these conversations online in person.
Speaker D
00:32:07
I don't think I had tapped into somebody that is thinking in those ways or having those conversations in their own mind here in Rochester.
Speaker D
00:32:16
And so for me, it was like, whoa.
Speaker D
00:32:17
Like, I've been doing this work online and with my guys out in Colorado at Uncivilized for going on five years, but there are also people here in Rochester talking about this.
Speaker D
00:32:28
So, you know, to bring it local was, like, mind blowing, maybe.
Speaker D
00:32:31
Abby, do you have any more to add?
Speaker B
00:32:33
In person show sparks, conversations and relationships.
Speaker E
00:32:36
It's really, who knew?
Speaker B
00:32:38
Who knew Headline.
Speaker E
00:32:42
And that's something that.
Speaker E
00:32:46
That's something that's so, so important to me.
Speaker E
00:32:49
And I think the value of in person, face to face, not zoom interactions, cannot be underst.
Speaker E
00:32:59
Overstated, because we.
Speaker E
00:33:05
And it's not just men, too.
Speaker E
00:33:07
Like, people everywhere feel isolated, and it's by design.
Speaker E
00:33:15
Right.
Speaker E
00:33:16
Our institutions are.
Speaker E
00:33:18
And I could go down a rabbit hole here, right?
Speaker E
00:33:19
But our institutions, we're really designed, like, from our neighborhoods to our schools to our workplaces, they're all designed to keep everybody, you know, in their cubicle doing.
Speaker B
00:33:29
They're still very industrial world when we are, as humans, in a totally different place.
Speaker B
00:33:34
And so there's a mismatch between what we actually need and what's happening.
Speaker E
00:33:38
What we need.
Speaker A
00:33:39
We're a transition.
Speaker E
00:33:40
What we actually need is more human to human connection, contact, conversation.
Speaker E
00:33:47
Just somebody looking at you, smiling, makes your whole day.
Speaker E
00:33:52
That makes your whole day.
Speaker E
00:33:53
That changes everything.
Speaker E
00:33:54
And beyond that, somebody who looks at you, who really sees you, who wants to hear what you have to say, and engages in a conversation that can change your whole life.
Speaker E
00:34:05
And I am so humbled that the opening reception was a vehicle for some of that, because we saw incredible.
Speaker E
00:34:16
Like, if you look around the room, we have photos from the event.
Speaker E
00:34:19
There are just groups of people that I think they grew.
Speaker E
00:34:23
Like, there was a little circle, and then they expanded throughout the night, just having conversations, really getting to know each other, you know, sharing their thoughts, their experiences, and their compassionate understanding of one another and of the idea of masculinity and just really, really happy to talk about it.
Speaker E
00:34:43
This is something that people have been itching to talk about, and I felt that every single time I brought it up to somebody, right?
Speaker E
00:34:50
I'd say, hey, I'm doing the show.
Speaker E
00:34:51
It's called positive masculinity.
Speaker E
00:34:53
They'd go, huh.
Speaker B
00:34:55
Interesting, right?
Speaker E
00:34:56
Because have you.
Speaker E
00:34:58
When was the last time you heard that phrase?
Speaker E
00:35:00
Right, right.
Speaker A
00:35:00
It's funny to.
Speaker B
00:35:02
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:35:02
And that's art, right?
Speaker B
00:35:03
Like, to me, to bring it to the show itself, like, that's.
Speaker B
00:35:07
That's what good art does, is it evokes a conversation or a reaction, any conversation, and more connection.
Speaker B
00:35:14
And I feel like that's what positive masculinity as a show has done really well.
Speaker B
00:35:19
It's like you are sparking conversation that, like, you mentioned Derek, like, oh, you're surprised to hear that someone was thinking this.
Speaker B
00:35:25
And I think my theory is that the longer that this goes on and the more that we talk about these things, the more surprised we're all going to be to be like, oh, actually, a lot of people are thinking about these things, and because of maybe the Internet rhetoric or the separation or the things that we're used to kind of silencing ourselves, that there's a lot that needs to blossom that's happening internally.
Speaker B
00:35:47
And this show is really allowing that.
Speaker B
00:35:49
To come forward.
Speaker B
00:35:50
So I'm curious about what the process was of putting together the art exhibition itself.
Speaker B
00:35:55
And, like, how did you guys.
Speaker B
00:35:56
How did you.
Speaker B
00:35:57
How did you choose?
Speaker B
00:35:58
And.
Speaker B
00:35:59
And what was that process like?
Speaker B
00:36:01
And I haven't seen the show yet, but it looks, based on the pictures, like, there's a beautiful range of expression and types of people.
Speaker B
00:36:11
So tell me about that process.
Speaker E
00:36:13
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E
00:36:14
And I.
Speaker E
00:36:16
One of my favorite parts about collecting submissions and talking to people about it was the reaction of, oh, I don't know, what would I submit?
Speaker E
00:36:32
Right.
Speaker E
00:36:32
Like, what?
Speaker E
00:36:33
Hmm.
Speaker E
00:36:33
And it really.
Speaker E
00:36:34
It made them think.
Speaker E
00:36:35
Like, that's a challenging question.
Speaker E
00:36:37
But then it made them think, why is that a challenging question?
Speaker E
00:36:40
Right?
Speaker E
00:36:41
So.
Speaker E
00:36:41
And that's exactly the.
Speaker E
00:36:42
Right.
Speaker E
00:36:43
I.
Speaker B
00:36:44
It was the whole thing.
Speaker E
00:36:45
This show would have been a success if I just had the title, right?
Speaker E
00:36:48
Because all I wanted was for people to think about it a little bit more.
Speaker E
00:36:52
And the selection process.
Speaker E
00:36:57
It was a juried exhibition, so we had a panel of four.
Speaker E
00:36:59
It was myself, Derek, Casey, and Carson.
Speaker E
00:37:03
And the.
Speaker E
00:37:05
Really, the.
Speaker E
00:37:06
The philosophy of our selection was, does this person have something to say?
Speaker E
00:37:14
And really, it came down to the.
Speaker E
00:37:18
The question, why does this.
Speaker E
00:37:20
Why does this piece connect to the theme?
Speaker E
00:37:21
Or how does it connect to the theme?
Speaker E
00:37:23
And if they had something to say about their own experience, you know, a take that resonated with the theme, then they're in.
Speaker E
00:37:31
If the art looks good, then, hey, that's a cherry on top.
Speaker B
00:37:34
Right?
Speaker E
00:37:34
Right.
Speaker E
00:37:35
Because you know this.
Speaker E
00:37:37
That's not what it's about.
Speaker E
00:37:38
Right.
Speaker E
00:37:38
At the end of the day, art.
Speaker B
00:37:39
Is the conversation and the question that you sparked in the beginning.
Speaker E
00:37:42
The art is just.
Speaker E
00:37:44
Look, the pieces are the vehicle.
Speaker E
00:37:45
Right?
Speaker E
00:37:46
Like, the real art is what happened at the opening reception and what's happening now, opening up this conversation, bringing more people in.
Speaker E
00:37:56
And it was really fascinating to see all the different manifestations of positive masculinity.
Speaker E
00:38:02
I.
Speaker E
00:38:02
I don't know about you, Derek, but I loved seeing how differently everyone sort of interpreted it.
Speaker E
00:38:10
One piece was an abstract fiber art of a person that they thought embodied positive masculinity to its fullest.
Speaker E
00:38:21
One was a.
Speaker E
00:38:25
A digital art piece of how body horror can evoke feel like strong feelings, and how gore and horror is used to illustrate systems of oppression or, you know, shame, and how, you know, an alternative perspective on that can illustrate just as strong of a feeling of positivity or hope or joy.
Speaker E
00:38:57
And the fact that everyone had so many different interpretations of it just speaks to the idea that there is so much to uncover and to talk about when people are offered the space and the attention.
Speaker E
00:39:15
But yeah, I want to see.
Speaker E
00:39:17
Derek, if you have any other thoughts to add too.
Speaker D
00:39:19
Sure.
Speaker D
00:39:20
Refresh the question for me, if you could.
Speaker B
00:39:21
Yeah, just like the process of putting the show together and actually doing that curation process of.
Speaker B
00:39:27
Of what came up for.
Speaker B
00:39:29
Is this the first time you've co curated a show or have you done this before?
Speaker A
00:39:32
Okay.
Speaker D
00:39:32
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:39:32
No first time entirely.
Speaker D
00:39:34
Well, I guess I did have my own art show years ago at Starry Nights Cafe, but a group show is.
Speaker B
00:39:40
A whole different thing.
Speaker D
00:39:41
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:39:41
Because you're seeing all these perspectives from all these people.
Speaker B
00:39:44
So I'm wondering, like, what stood out to you in that process.
Speaker D
00:39:47
Sure.
Speaker D
00:39:48
So I think initially for me, it was the sensation of, like, male or masculine voices are already so quiet and shut down often that I would like to bring in everybody.
Speaker D
00:40:02
But with the curated art show, we couldn't have everybody.
Speaker D
00:40:05
How many did we have total submit?
Speaker E
00:40:08
I believe it was 15 local artists.
Speaker D
00:40:10
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker D
00:40:11
So we got pretty close to that number anyway, but we don't have unlimited space on the walls.
Speaker B
00:40:15
Right.
Speaker D
00:40:15
And so, yeah, I think that was a potent realization that, like, wow, I.
Speaker D
00:40:20
I don't want to have to shut anybody down.
Speaker D
00:40:21
I'm sure everybody has something decent enough to say and.
Speaker D
00:40:25
And we'll be a vehicle for good conversation.
Speaker A
00:40:28
Apart from that, when you say male and masculine voices are shut down, you mean from, like, internal expression, to be specific?
Speaker D
00:40:36
Yeah, Yeah, I think kind of like we were saying earlier at one point, it's.
Speaker D
00:40:43
I think with the online rhetoric, since maybe 2017 or 18, society has shifted toward asking men to not speak, do not share what's on your mind.
Speaker D
00:40:53
We don't want to hear your thoughts.
Speaker D
00:40:54
And that happens to be damaging, especially when it's coming in droves.
Speaker D
00:41:00
Especially when it's coming from the headlines or from celebrities or these gigantic influencers like Andrew.
Speaker D
00:41:06
Well, not Andrew Tate.
Speaker C
00:41:08
Yeah, the opposite.
Speaker D
00:41:10
The opposite of Andrew Tate.
Speaker C
00:41:11
Well, I think for me, he's top.
Speaker D
00:41:12
Of mind right now.
Speaker C
00:41:13
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:41:14
Tying back to what I mentioned earlier is, I think it's the.
Speaker C
00:41:19
The, you know, expressing yourself with that the macho attitude is accepted, but the vulnerability, speaking vulnerably, speaking honestly, speaking of fears and the other things, fear and pain and, you know, growth and those things, that's the thing that seems to be most repressed and the thing people most need to get out to feel better or try to feel better.
Speaker D
00:41:48
Yeah, that was well said.
Speaker A
00:41:49
Right.
Speaker A
00:41:49
And so throughout the show and the submissions and selections you guys have made, like, what.
Speaker A
00:41:56
What Maybe are some patterns or themes of.
Speaker A
00:41:59
Of some of those expressions that are starting to.
Speaker A
00:42:02
That have come through.
Speaker A
00:42:03
It's not just the conversations, but, like, some of the topics.
Speaker D
00:42:07
A word just came to mind.
Speaker D
00:42:08
It's exactly what I want to talk about.
Speaker D
00:42:10
Freedom.
Speaker D
00:42:11
Freedom.
Speaker D
00:42:11
I think men and masculine folk are craving freedom right now.
Speaker D
00:42:16
There's one piece in the art show.
Speaker D
00:42:18
Maybe you'll remember the name of this person.
Speaker D
00:42:21
It's a yellow painting of sorts with a lot of, like, things coming out of the heart type region.
Speaker E
00:42:27
Yes, yes.
Speaker E
00:42:27
That is a Smith's piece.
Speaker D
00:42:29
Yeah, Smith.
Speaker E
00:42:31
That's the digital piece I was talking about, actually.
Speaker D
00:42:34
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker D
00:42:34
Like, the visual of that, like having this kind of explosive energy coming outward and there's a lot of emotion to it and dripping net it.
Speaker D
00:42:43
You know, the painting itself felt like an expression of what this person has been dying to express and maybe hadn't expressed until they made this painting.
Speaker D
00:42:50
Right, right.
Speaker D
00:42:51
And that visual also, for me, because, you know, I'm not remembering a ton of pieces off the top of my head right now, also resonated with my piece around freedom and going against the powers that be that want to keep us silenced or.
Speaker D
00:43:03
Or subservient.
Speaker A
00:43:05
Right.
Speaker D
00:43:05
So.
Speaker D
00:43:06
So, yeah, I think freedom is something that.
Speaker D
00:43:08
That men and masculine folk crave, especially these past seven, eight years, that the.
Speaker D
00:43:13
The needle really shifted toward men stop talking.
Speaker A
00:43:17
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:43:17
So as a result of the show and.
Speaker A
00:43:19
And maybe some of the.
Speaker A
00:43:21
The direction this is going, like, where do you feel like, what do you want to see more of?
Speaker E
00:43:32
I want to see more of.
Speaker E
00:43:38
I want to see more imperfect activism.
Speaker E
00:43:42
I think that there can be.
Speaker E
00:43:46
There is an obsession with calling people out.
Speaker E
00:43:52
And, you know, we talk about cancel culture a lot.
Speaker E
00:43:56
We talk about, all right, somebody does something wrong, they must be condemned.
Speaker E
00:44:00
They do this thing, then they're unforgivable.
Speaker B
00:44:02
They're not human.
Speaker B
00:44:03
They just must be fucked up.
Speaker E
00:44:04
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:44:05
As if we don't all make mistakes.
Speaker E
00:44:07
As if we don't fuck up every single day constantly.
Speaker E
00:44:09
Right.
Speaker E
00:44:10
And I think.
Speaker E
00:44:12
I think people are desperate to be validated as an imperfect person showing up with a good intention.
Speaker E
00:44:23
Right.
Speaker E
00:44:24
And I think men are very frequently shut out of conversations, especially in the social justice movement or in, you know, community betterment, that kind of thing, because we're like, oh, we've heard enough from you.
Speaker E
00:44:36
You know, you take up space in all these other areas, which men's voices do take up a lot of space in a lot of areas.
Speaker E
00:44:43
But again, solution oriented.
Speaker E
00:44:47
Right.
Speaker E
00:44:48
If we want men to come in, enter the conversation, be Part of the solution then we gotta talk to them.
Speaker E
00:44:54
Right.
Speaker E
00:44:54
And we gotta be imperfect.
Speaker E
00:44:56
We gotta show up just as they're showing up.
Speaker E
00:45:01
So, yeah, I'm really, I want to see more of like, compassionate, understanding.
Speaker E
00:45:10
People are not going to say the right things all the time.
Speaker E
00:45:13
And that's okay.
Speaker E
00:45:15
I use they.
Speaker E
00:45:16
Them pronouns.
Speaker E
00:45:17
If I am in the street and somebody says, oh, excuse me, ma'am, you know, great.
Speaker E
00:45:22
Like they're being polite, you know, if they listen, like, just as we hope other people will understand how best to interact with and respect us, we need to understand from a humble and empathetic perspective how to respect and understand other people.
Speaker E
00:45:42
So I want to see more authentic, fearless conversation, regardless of your preconceived notions of another person, because that's the only way.
Speaker E
00:45:52
That's the only way we're going to move forward.
Speaker E
00:45:54
Community.
Speaker C
00:45:55
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:45:55
And that, that intent, right.
Speaker C
00:45:57
I think intent is hard to judge when you feel vulnerable because like, hey, I would have, I would have made the same mistake.
Speaker D
00:46:04
Yeah, right, right.
Speaker C
00:46:06
I probably would have used a different pronouns and you would have said other ones.
Speaker C
00:46:09
I'm like, oh, cool, thanks.
Speaker B
00:46:11
And that's all it takes really, is that connective moment of.
Speaker B
00:46:14
Because I feel the same way as a non binary person.
Speaker B
00:46:16
I'm like, I don't understand why we're so up in arms about languaging in a moment when it's like, it could be a moment for connection.
Speaker B
00:46:23
Right.
Speaker B
00:46:23
It's like, oh, actually, you know, it's not, it's not a personal thing, you.
Speaker A
00:46:27
Know, and it's something that's really important as we start to kind of land the plane here that we, we didn't really get into.
Speaker A
00:46:35
But this is my last abstract question, so we don't get too crazy deep.
Speaker A
00:46:39
But you know, we've, we've sort of conflated as the, A lot of people do, this idea of male and masculine and female and feminine, but they are all separate ideas.
Speaker A
00:46:51
Feminine masculine is more of like this abstraction.
Speaker A
00:46:54
Right.
Speaker A
00:46:55
And you talked about it at the top of the show, Abby.
Speaker A
00:46:57
Like, you are trying to understand your inner masculine experience, feeling that naturally and wanting to bring that out and express that.
Speaker A
00:47:06
So how has the process of this show helped you tap into that inner masculine?
Speaker A
00:47:11
What are you learning about that inner masculine?
Speaker A
00:47:13
And I'll ask you the same question, Derek.
Speaker A
00:47:14
Like, how has this supported your, your, your growth in your understanding of masculinity?
Speaker A
00:47:23
Either one of you want to go first?
Speaker D
00:47:25
Sure.
Speaker D
00:47:26
So, yeah, I think I felt it most at the opening reception being on the stage and Witnessing everybody listening to what was being said on stage, whether it was me talking or the other, like, five or six people talking about their art or Carson and I talking about the show, just to have people intently listening and then sometimes responding or asking questions showed to me that, wow, what we are doing is cultivating my own leadership skills.
Speaker D
00:47:59
And it's this interesting thing where when somebody steps up to lead a conversation, it also plants a nugget or seed in everybody else's minds that, like, whoa, I can also be having those conversations or maybe even leading them.
Speaker D
00:48:15
Right.
Speaker D
00:48:15
So, yeah, I think it.
Speaker D
00:48:17
It spurred a little bit of growth in me in the leadership aspect.
Speaker D
00:48:21
Like, I'll pause there.
Speaker B
00:48:22
I don't know.
Speaker B
00:48:23
That's beautiful.
Speaker D
00:48:24
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:48:24
Yeah, Abby, that's fantastic.
Speaker E
00:48:28
Something.
Speaker E
00:48:28
Something that you said earlier stood out to me, too.
Speaker E
00:48:31
It was about how we aren't really shown what it is to be a positively masculine person.
Speaker E
00:48:46
And I think it's always valuable to understand, you know, the inverse.
Speaker E
00:48:53
Right.
Speaker E
00:48:53
What.
Speaker E
00:48:53
What do I not want to embody?
Speaker E
00:48:55
What do I not want to be?
Speaker E
00:48:58
But it is.
Speaker E
00:49:02
I think we're.
Speaker E
00:49:04
We don't have as much of a focus on, oh, well, what are the positive examples?
Speaker E
00:49:10
Like, what example do I follow?
Speaker E
00:49:12
Who is somebody I do want to be like?
Speaker E
00:49:15
And how can I express myself and my masculinity in a way?
Speaker E
00:49:19
What does healthy masculinity look like?
Speaker E
00:49:23
And speaking of, we have a workshop coming up on March 17th that actually discusses what is healthy masculinity.
Speaker E
00:49:33
And so the foundation of this conversation is going to be input from our community members of what masculinity means to you, or what does a masculine person.
Speaker E
00:49:44
Who's a masculine person you look up to and why?
Speaker E
00:49:48
And we're really excited to just host this dialogue to understand, hey, how do we embody what we want?
Speaker E
00:49:58
How do we redefine masculinity to be something that we aspire to as opposed to shield away from?
Speaker E
00:50:07
And I think really engaging in this type of conversation brings people hope.
Speaker B
00:50:14
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:50:16
Because it's like opening.
Speaker B
00:50:18
Opening doors as opposed to closing them.
Speaker E
00:50:20
Yes.
Speaker B
00:50:20
You know, and.
Speaker B
00:50:22
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:50:23
And as we're closing out, I would love for you guys to talk more about, because you've got, like, a month long full of themed events that go with the positive masculinity show.
Speaker B
00:50:33
So tell us a little bit about that and what folks can expect and where they can find you all that good stuff.
Speaker E
00:50:38
Sure.
Speaker E
00:50:39
So first of all, let's see.
Speaker E
00:50:42
Yeah, we have a whole month of events, Positive Masculinity month.
Speaker E
00:50:45
We also have A fundraiser going on.
Speaker E
00:50:47
So if you'd like to donate anything to support our projects and our planning.
Speaker E
00:50:51
But we have a whole bunch of events, including a few themed creative mixers where you can stop by the studio, walk around, meet up fellow creatives, engage in some of the discussions, see the art, and then some music events.
Speaker E
00:51:10
There's one going on tonight called Dude Music.
Speaker E
00:51:12
Definitely don't miss that.
Speaker B
00:51:14
What a great title.
Speaker D
00:51:15
Little jam session.
Speaker E
00:51:16
Little jam session.
Speaker E
00:51:17
And Derek, you want to share about some men's groups going on?
Speaker D
00:51:21
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:51:21
Yeah.
Speaker D
00:51:22
So like I mentioned earlier, I.
Speaker D
00:51:24
I lead and facilitate bi weekly Men's Circle.
Speaker D
00:51:27
You might also hear the term men's group thrown around.
Speaker D
00:51:30
There's a few of them in the Rochester area.
Speaker D
00:51:31
Some of them are spread out, but.
Speaker D
00:51:34
So, yeah, I recently restarted this chapter of Men's circle back in July.
Speaker D
00:51:39
I work with an organization called Uncivilized out in Colorado.
Speaker D
00:51:42
And our basic concept is that society and the powers that be have conditioned us into a civilized paradigm, which is not serving us very well as men.
Speaker D
00:51:56
Whether it's the macho man paradigm or the nice guy paradigm, which kind of get bucketed into the civilized paradigm, neither of those things are serving us.
Speaker D
00:52:06
And so the alternative to that is the uncivilized paradigm where men, like I mentioned earlier with the men's work definition, are living full, authentic, freely expressed lives which are raw, real, and relational.
Speaker D
00:52:20
And so I've been working with those guys out in Colorado for close to five years now.
Speaker D
00:52:25
And so my version of a men's circle is at a base level, a general support group.
Speaker D
00:52:31
Right.
Speaker D
00:52:32
Come in, check in about your life.
Speaker D
00:52:34
What's going on?
Speaker D
00:52:35
What do you want to talk about?
Speaker D
00:52:36
What do you want to vent about?
Speaker D
00:52:37
What can we celebrate together?
Speaker D
00:52:39
What can we hold each other accountable to?
Speaker D
00:52:41
Let's all bring it here.
Speaker D
00:52:42
And it's a confidential, private space over at mukduck Studio.
Speaker B
00:52:45
That's awesome.
Speaker D
00:52:46
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:52:47
And where can folks go to find all the information about this stuff?
Speaker E
00:52:51
Yes, Please check out Mukduck Studio on Instagram.
Speaker E
00:52:56
You can also go to mukdukstudio.org we have a calendar of events there.
Speaker E
00:53:00
And then we'll be posting any upcoming events on our Instagram as they come up.
Speaker B
00:53:06
Amazing.
Speaker B
00:53:07
Well, this has been awesome.
Speaker B
00:53:08
Thank you guys both so much for coming on the show today.
Speaker E
00:53:11
Thank you.
Speaker A
00:53:12
Thank you so much.
Speaker A
00:53:12
All this sounds really good to be Batman.
Speaker A
00:53:14
I mean, Batman talking about being a man, because I think I'm a man and I like to think people look up to me as a man.
Speaker A
00:53:22
But, you know, I'D like freedom.
Speaker A
00:53:24
I like the freedom to fly around.
Speaker A
00:53:26
And I like to go do things.
Speaker A
00:53:27
I win my Bat Signal.
Speaker A
00:53:31
This has been a presentation of the Lunchadore Podcast Network.
Speaker C
00:53:41
Macho.
Speaker C
00:53:42
Macho man.
Speaker C
00:53:43
What does it mean, a macho man?
Speaker C
00:53:45
Anger, fear and shame.
Speaker C
00:53:47
I don't want to be a macho.
Speaker C
00:53:49
You can tell a real man, he has a funky walk.
Speaker C
00:53:52
His western shirts or streetwear always look so sharp.
Speaker C
00:53:57
Funky with his vibes, still vulnerable.
Speaker C
00:53:59
Call him Mr.
Speaker C
00:54:00
Confident.
Speaker C
00:54:01
Really himself.
