When Does Healthy Eating Become Disordered Eating? (Featuring Rachel Hobbs Tremain)

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Today we're joined by Rachel Hobbes Tremain, clinical and counseling dietitian and personal trainer.
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Her training spans sports nutrition through the International Olympic Committee, as well as further study in the neurobiology of eating disorders, trauma-informed care, and more.
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She is registered with the Health and Care Professions Council, is a member of the British Dietetic Association, and consults for the NHS.
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I am extremely excited to have you here with us to talk about diet culture, food, a healthy relationship with food, and more.
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So thank you for being here.
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Thank you so much for inviting me.
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I'm so looking forward to this conversation.
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Yeah, I mean, I have to be fully honest, I didn't think we'd be able to get you on.
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And I She literally said, I want to invite her.
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She's so good.
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She's so I think she's too busy for us.
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She's too busy.
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I thought she'd be interested.
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I feel pressured to find out.
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No, but I'm especially excited because we are almost 40, maybe at more past this point by the time this comes out, 40-ish episodes into our podcast, and we have yet to have a dedicated episode talking about disordered eating and all of these topics that I'm very interested in.
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And we talk about these a lot.
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We we we talk about fat loss a lot and weight loss a lot, predominantly because that's a topic that really interests lots of people.
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So a lot of people are looking for that advice.
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But we always tend to approach it through the lens of we don't think it's a benign endeavor for everyone.
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There are risks involved.
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Be careful of those risks and pitfalls.
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Try and make sure you don't stand in them.
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So we're often doing it with caveats and things, but I think a lot of people will be very interested in hearing about the sometimes blurry line that can happen to your relationship with food as collateral to dieting approaches.
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Yeah.
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And that actually takes us to our first question, which is you describe yourself as being anti-diet culture, but not anti-diet.
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What is the difference and where is the line?
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So I love this question.
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I think when we're talking about diet culture, there's lots of different definitions.
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And I think the easiest way for us to explain it, it's a set of beliefs or values that a lot of us has grown up with in Western culture, where smaller is seen as morally more virtuous and hunger is something to be celebrated.
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And if you are in a thinner body or more worthy or lovable, and even if we've not explicitly or consciously recognized that we have those values, they often sit underneath the surface for many of us.
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And so I completely challenge that.
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And I hope would hope a most healthcare professionals would challenge that belief.
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But as a dietitian, I'm not, I'm a huge advocate of body autonomy.
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So I'm not going to say to someone what they should or should not do with their bodies.
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I think that's something that is up to them to decide.
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And as healthcare professionals, we can support them to understand why that might be important to them and what those costs are, because any decision we make about our body does come at some cost.
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And I think it is important to be transparent about that so that they can make that decision themselves.
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I love that.
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And I think this is a big part of why I said we have to get Rachel on if we can, because so many of your Instagram posts, I read them and I say, we're very aligned on this on this view.
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Can I give a little bit of a kind of side context?
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So I think that there are a lot of people that listen to a podcast like ours and we will talk about things like weight loss.
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We will occasionally talk about calories, even though we're not very calorie-counting pro people.
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And some people see, especially because I have books with the word fat loss in the title.
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And some people think that that's very pro fat loss culture.
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Or then they also see what you look like, and then they assume, oh, you're a jacked personal trainer, you're gonna put everyone on a meal plan or something.
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Yeah, they think there's going to be a lot of um food morality, for example, and very judgy about what you eat, etc.
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And then the counter to that is some people hate anything to do with dieting full stop.
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Right.
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So even if you talk about uh losing weight, losing body fat, sometimes even exercising, they view that so aggressively through a diet culture lens that they hate it.
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And when you say I'm very pro-body autonomy, that is actually a perfect explanation for how I approach it, which is I'm not actually very pro-dieting.
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I'm more of a lots of people ask me about dieting.
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Here is what I think the research says.
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But I don't care whether you diet or not, it's about trying to help people make the best decisions for themselves rather than yes, I want everyone to lose weight, or no, I don't want anyone to try and lose weight, if that makes sense.
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Yeah.
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But I think Rachel does a really great job of covering the side of dieting or maybe the benefits of not intentionally dieting that we don't talk about enough.
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Like the number of times you've done posts about here's everything I gained in my life by by fueling enough.
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Yeah.
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I'm more present as a mother.
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I have more energy, I can do all of these things.
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And I read that and I think more moms need to read this.
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More, more people in general need to know this information.
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That way, if they do decide to diet intentionally, they know what they're getting into and they know what the cost is.
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They can go in with eyes wide open.
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That's kind of how I view it.
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And if I was to work out whether I could support someone or not to go on a fat loss journey, I would look at can pursuing fat loss coexist with this individual maintaining being nourished, maintaining their psychological flexibility around food, maintaining their physiological health.
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Are they, if they're a female, are they still going to be menstruating regularly?
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Because it's it's people will choose to pursue weight loss.
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So let's find a way where we can reduce the harm involved with that.
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Yeah.
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And that harm might to start with, if someone's, you know, not eating regular meals, actually, it might not mean let's go into an energy deficit to begin with, but let's have predictable meal patterns.
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Let's make sure there's no um nutrient deficiencies.
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Let's look at this from a wider lens.
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And whilst we're doing that, let's work out what do you think weight loss is going to give to you?
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Is it from a diet culture lens, do you feel like you will be more worthy, more valuable?
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Because if that's the case, you know, if we feel not worthy in a bigger body, we're not going to feel really worthy in a smaller body either.
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You know, that comes, that comes with us and needs a different psychological input.
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Um, so that's probably my stance and things.
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Are there any other, not to put you on the spot, this can be an open conversation, but are there any other examples of diet culture things that we could condemn?
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So listeners or viewers might be like, oh, that's me.
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So, as an example, just because you you said that.
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So I first started exercising.
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I think, looking back, because there was a gym near me, so it's very convenient, but I think I did it because I wanted to be more attractive to the opposite sex.
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And when I started exercising more, I started getting compliments.
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And that is a very, it's not necessarily about how my body changes.
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It's me thinking it's going to make me more confident, it's going to make me happy, it's going to make me more attractive.
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And those are more diet cultury-y messages because I could be more confident in my skin and never change the way I look.
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A lot happens with confidence in your brain, not via whether I've got a six-pack or not.
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Um, so I thought maybe there'd be some other examples of diet culture messages that we could give where listeners or viewers might be like, that sounds like before before Rachel answers a really funny side note with regards to what you said is that he said, you know, he wants to be more attractive to the opposite sex.
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The funniest thing about this is that he is complimented and hit on by men.
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Always.
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Almost exclusively men.
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Even yesterday we're walking down the street.
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There was a guy.
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What did he say?
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Complimenting your biceps.
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That's just what you say.
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Men saying, I like your body.
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Yeah.
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What's your bicep routine?
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Yes.
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Can I take a photo of you to send to my wife?
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Genuinely happened.
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But anyway, side tangent.
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So examples of diet culture.
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Yeah.
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The examples that come to mind for me, especially when you were talking about how a diet culture is not always, you know, readily obvious, is and not a lot of it is indirect, where people say, even to children, young girls, especially, oh, you've lost so weight, you look so pretty.
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Yes.
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Oh, you look, you you've lost, I can see you look you're thinner now.
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You look great.
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Yeah.
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And you can see how those beliefs system.
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The implication is, oh, I didn't look great before.
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It's because I'm 20 pounds lighter that you think I'm more attractive now.
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Therefore, I have to either maintain this weight, or maybe if I'm even thinner, I will be even prettier.
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So that's the point of view.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think that's I think that is huge.
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I also think the messaging that sometimes children get from the TV shows they watch.
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Generally, women in bigger bodies are pursued as kind of the villain.
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Um, whereas princesses, you know, they're the chosen ones that will get, you know, married.
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I mean, there's a whole nother thing about being chosen and being married that we won't go into, but um it it does put these subconscious messages in.
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Yeah.
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But I don't want to dismiss the reality that I think that we do live in a society that does have an element of unfortunately pretty privilege.
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100%.
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And I think I have never navigated the world in a body that is seen as any of those negative connotations.
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So I can't speak from this from lived experience.
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But from the individuals that I've had the honour of working with, that's how they feel sometimes.
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Is that if someone were to see me speaking about this and not living it, I can't tell the whole truth, the whole lived experience of that.
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Um but I mean, there is a thing called the halo effect.
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Whether I don't know whether you're familiar with with it, whereas if we see someone that is in a smaller body, we almost automatically think, oh, they're successful, they're financially successful, they've got a husband, they've got a family, whatever that is.
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And again, that is through this belief system that that we have grown up within that we think, oh, if if they're thin, that means they have everything they want.
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And maybe that's a driving force for us to become thinner because we think then we'll get everything we want.
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Yeah.
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We gave examples of it on the media, but I think just to reiterate, yeah, the idea that someone, if they lose weight, they're automatically happier, healthier, more attractive, et cetera.
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But an example we gave through the lens of the media is characters in TV shows are often, if someone has more body fat, they tend to be often portrayed as clumsy, lazy, stupid, unattractive, unsuccessful, et cetera.
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Yeah.
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And if we are absorbing them all day, every day, we're, you know, you hear it, don't you, as you walk down the street, people talking about diet culture or the next diet, it almost like becomes this, you know, we're reinforcing those neural pathways that thinner is better.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think it's really sad to me how early on in our lives we can absorb those messages and not even realize, oh, I've accepted this as my truth, as my reality.
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And it's not until maybe you're older and you you listen to these kinds of conversations and you realize, oh my God, I had all these assumptions that I accepted as true, that actually I don't have to live by those, by those thoughts and ideas.
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So I think ideally, people are going to listen to this episode.
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And there might be some things that we say that challenge them on pre-existing beliefs that they have.
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But ideally, we're trying to promote everyone who has a healthy relationship with food and their body.
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So I think it would be a good idea to set some foundation definitions.
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What is the difference between disordered eating and a true eating disorder?
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So officially, an eating, if you've got an eating disorder, you have to fit into a certain box that is determined by the DSM, which is like a statistical manual of psychiatric disorders.
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I think there are pros and cons to having this because especially in the UK, if you fit into one of these boxes, say, for example, anorexia nevosa, bulimia nervosa, it opens you up to more treatment pathways.
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And if someone feels like eating disorders and disordered eatings, I view them as adaptations.
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So at some point they helped you survive something that you wouldn't have ordinarily been able to survive.
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And that could have been something you might not have been aware that that was happening.
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And they're very complicated.
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And my concern is if someone doesn't feel like they fit into an eating disorder box, they don't feel like they deserve support or they deserve treatment.
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Because disordered eating runs on quite a spectrum of from having a really neutral relationship with food to perhaps having a relationship with food that takes over your entire life and causes a huge amount of psychological and physiological problems.
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But you don't have to fit into a box to be deserving of that support.
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And I think that's sometimes where I find it challenging when we're working with eating disorders versus disordered eating.
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Would would it be possible to give some examples of things that you would say those might be not necessarily red flags, but yellow flags for, you know, be careful if you notice this or this or this, for example?
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Yeah, of course.
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So the first thing that comes to mind would be around, I think you mentioned earlier, like calorie counting.
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I think when you're starting to understand food, learning about the energy content of food can be really useful.
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When you're trying to understand about how much your body needs and what you're currently taking in, it can be a useful tool if you're then able to put it down and move on with your life in a way that you take that information.
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But if calorie counting becomes something that, if you weren't able to do it, it brings up anxiety or distress, then that's something that we have to be careful of.
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If we things like if we cannot go out to eat, if we cannot be cooked for, again, these are all kind of like you said, like amber flags that perhaps my relationship with food just needs a little bit of tender care.
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Yeah.
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I can think of two anecdotes to illustrate this.
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One would be from my own life, back when I was in college, and I was on the very strict meal plan from my fitness coach at the time.
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But I'm I'm living on campus as a college freshman, which is when I'm 18 years old.
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And that's when you have a lot of parties on campus where you socialize and things.
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I became a hermit because I didn't know to how to go to these parties where they were serving snacks and food, and it wasn't on my meal plan, and I don't know how to navigate these things, so I'm just not gonna go.
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Yes.
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And that happened to the point where all of a sudden the invite stopped coming.
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All of a sudden, it was the end of my freshman year, and I had no friends because I would keep myself isolated all the time.
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Like that would be obviously not a great thing.
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The other example I can think of is if someone were to take their pre-measured, weighed, portioned-out food in a Tupperware to a posh restaurant.
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Yes, and sit there, open up their Tupperware.
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That was gonna be what I said there and then, or insist that they microwave their chicken and broccoli or their fish and broccoli at the restaurant because they refuse to eat anything else.
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Even if I was gonna say they're not, they're not even prepping for a bodybuilding competition, but that's a whole other can of worms.
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Which we are going to get to.
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Regardless of that, or regardless of the reason, the actual behavior itself, you would say, is that something that we should be a little bit worried about?
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Absolutely.
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I've I've made numerous videos in the past where I think, especially in bodybuilding culture, there are a lot of things where if I gave a list of habits that I know people have done, you would say that is a warning sign, that is a warning sign, that is a warning sign.
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But especially in hardcore physique culture, they are often viewed as the cost you have to pay to get to that level of leanness.
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And that's part of the reason why.
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Yeah, well, I'm dedicated and you're not.
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It's discipline.
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Yeah, it's almost celebrated within the fitness industry.
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And I did the same thing where I would take food in Tupperware to places because I was sticking to my meal plan, which is something that we should should celebrate.
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But then it got to the point where I was nervous to eat at restaurants or nervous to eat at a friend's house, or if a friend cooked for me, I wanted to know everything that was in there because was it cooked with the right oil, or I wanted to know the calorie count and blah, blah, blah.
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Anyway, we will um go towards more of that later.
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One question that we have talked about in the past is does dieting directly cause eating disorders?
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Which I know is a big question.
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It's a big question.
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And I think if dieting in isolation directly caused eating disorders, then that would mean everyone that pursues fat loss would exhibit disorders eating or an eating disorder.
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And that's not true.
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Eating disorders are incredibly complex.
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And when I start to work with an individual, we will always look at this as something called a formulation.
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Like, what are all the things that has happened in the past and all the things that are happening in the present that are maintaining these behaviours?
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And these formulations are vast and they develop over time, but we know now there is a genetic link.
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So it could be for some individuals, if they are genetically predisposed to having an eating disorder, something like going into an energy deficit, and that doesn't have to be purposely dieting to lose weight.
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It could be that their training volumes increased and they've not quite managed that or they've been poorly turned.
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I don't like it, it's very complex, but turns on those eating disorder genes.
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And in that way, dieting can be a contributor to developing an eating disorder, but it's not the cause of eating disorders.
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Would be my response.
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I like that.
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I think the all also the other thing to remember is that when I think of binge eating, for example, a lot of people think binge eating is a willpower deficiency.
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And I know you've done posts on this as well, but in in reality, often sometimes it's the case that eating disorders or those kinds of behaviors have nothing to do with calories or your body.
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:08.640
Sometimes binge eating is the manifestation of poor stress coping mechanisms or a need for control in your life or you know, something like that.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.200
There's something else, and it's not always about food.
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:14.000
It's not always about calories and things like that.
00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:18.160
I think the psychology thing is actually something that I found really interesting.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:25.599
I remember when I was reading some research papers on a lot, a lot of my research stems from bodybuilding culture, because that's what I grew up in.
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:30.319
And also I realized that my relationship with food was horrific at times.
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:36.640
And there are some research papers that talk about the risks of hardcore dieting and eating disorders.
00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:48.559
And I remember reading that some of the uh the things that might predispose you are things like perfectionism, or, like you say, people that want a certain degree of control.
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:51.759
So meticulous calorie tracking sounds very controlled.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.880
I'm doing things precisely, I like that degree of control.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:06.000
But that could, in theory, make someone more susceptible to stress when they lose control and something when it deviates from their perfect path, so to speak.
00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:06.720
Yeah.
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.880
Um, have you bodybuild yourself?
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:16.160
So I I mean, essentially, yes, but I wasn't a stand on stage in budgie smugglers kind of bodybuilder.
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:17.039
Why have I not?
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:17.519
Yeah.
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:19.279
I'm I mean, I'm too shy for that.
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:26.640
But I did I basically did the the kind of natural non-steroid equivalent, but I would just do photo shoots.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:26.799
Yeah.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:32.720
So I would diet to very, very low levels of body fat, and all I cared about was muscularity and body fat percentage.
00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:36.640
But I would never stand on stage with other people because that's like my hell.
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:37.519
Yeah.
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:39.440
All that attention and wearing very little attention.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:40.559
Have you done it?
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.160
I did a couple bikini competitions.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:43.759
I think you did two as well, right?
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:44.160
Yeah.
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:45.200
Long, long time ago.
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:52.880
But I think a lot of people within the fitness space who have been through that come out the other side and they're like, oh wow, I didn't expect that.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:55.759
I'm actually quite scared of carbohydrates now.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:00.000
And I find myself having caffeine and not eating food.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:04.480
And I find myself chewing nicotine gum instead of eating meals.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:18.240
And a lot of things, I know a very successful fitness competitor, I won't name them in case I haven't spoken about it for a while, who said that at the peak of their when they were winning shows, would uh smell food or chew food and spit it out.
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.000
Food and spit it out is a very common one.
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:20.319
Yeah.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.839
And if you were in an eating disorder clinic, you would be like, that's an issue.
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:32.559
But for them, they were talking about it openly on social media because that was the cost that they thought was necessary to get to the top of their industry.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:35.359
And that it comes back down to that cost, isn't it?
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:45.599
And like we all probably went into it quite naively because I mean, for me, it was 15 years ago, about 15 years ago, probably.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:46.000
Yeah.
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:49.119
And you don't you just don't know what you don't know.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:53.839
I remember going into the supermarket when I'd finished and being like, what do I even eat?
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:54.799
Like, what do I eat?
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:56.720
Because I've been following this plan for so long.
00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:57.039
Yeah.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.839
Like it takes away that sense of autonomy and body training.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:05.680
And I mean, that extreme level of leanness is obviously going to impact the brain.
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:15.599
And I think that's what I'm really passionate about that whenever we do with our food in the hopes that it does something with our body, it doesn't, it's never just a weight loss diet.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.440
It's always going to affect our brain.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:18.880
It's going to affect our focus.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:23.359
It's going to affect our ability to regulate, our ability to be present with our children.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:23.839
Yeah.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:32.319
So whenever we're thinking, and no one ever goes into a diet thinking, gosh, this might create an eating disorder, but we have to consider that as one of those costs.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:33.279
Yeah.
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:39.039
I think a big part of it too, in that time, early 2010s, maybe mid-2000s.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.240
I'm sure obviously before then as well, but that's about when it sounds like we would take it.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:45.119
All of us were into that, into that era.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.920
There wasn't, I didn't see any discussion about what we're talking about now.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:58.960
There wasn't anyone that I saw saying, here's how you can diet, but also by the way, here are some warning signs to look out for.
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.200
And here are some ways that it can actually negatively impact your life.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:07.119
Because to me, it was all about, well, the leaner you are, the better everything is in your life.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.720
So what are the downsides?
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:11.759
The first time I talked about it, some people got really angry.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:16.720
And all I said was uh it was like a photos of me, and I said, I wasn't healthy.
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:27.119
Here are some things I noticed, like drop in libido, irritability, uh, sleep disturbance, appetite was through the roof, like weaker in the gym, lots of these things.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:38.240
And all I was talking about was be careful of downsides because a lot of people don't talk about downsides, they talk about they show the romanticized photo without going, oh, by the way, actually really mess me up elsewhere.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.079
And some people got really mad at me.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:40.400
Yeah.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:42.799
And I was like, I'm just telling you what sometimes happens.
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:44.720
And what that's your experience.
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:49.839
I think because when you're in it, everyone around you is also in it.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:52.240
And then it becomes so, so normalized.
00:23:52.559 --> 00:24:00.000
And in any other situation that you'd be in, it would be picked up as a disordered eating behavior.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.200
But because everyone around you is doing it, you don't notice that.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:06.319
It just becomes this is something we have to do to get what we want.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:06.880
Yeah.
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:16.559
The one example I think of with that is at the end of a bodybuilding competition, how often do people then brag about, oh, I then I then I ate a whole box of donuts after my show.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.720
And people are like, oh my God, that's so great.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.200
I saw a video of-and we're like crying.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:22.000
I don't know about that.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.640
I saw a video of someone crying after they had their, they they came off stage.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.000
I think their partner was waiting for them with the foods that they had been craving.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:39.440
And they were literally crying because they were so excited, they'd been looking forward to these whatever it was, donuts for how many months, that they were literally in tears eating the donut.
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:54.160
And I think when people pair the idea of extreme calorie deprivation with heightened appetite, I think that's an easy explanation for some people to understand how dieting could predict binge eating, for example.
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:54.720
Absolutely.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:25:02.480
Which leads us neatly to the next question, which is what are things that people misunderstand about binge eating?
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:05.599
About binge eating, per se, or binge eating disorder.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.519
Go with either, whatever you want.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:07.839
Yeah.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:14.400
So to reach, or again, this is about the um the diagnosis of binge eating disorder.
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:18.240
Someone has to reach X amount of times binging per week, causing distress.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:21.119
But any binge eating is distressing.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:28.880
It's something that someone doesn't want to do, and it can completely take over an individual's life.
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:33.039
And it's not about being glatinous, it's not about having no willpower.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.839
At some point, perhaps it developed through, like you said, restriction.
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.000
That's a really common trigger for a binge.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:47.039
So often someone might come to me and talk to me lots and lots about the binge, but I'm more interested in what's happening before that.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:48.400
Was eating regular?
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:50.400
Has there been a constant restriction?
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:53.119
Has carbohydrates been restricted?
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:58.559
Have um, you know, what else is going on in that individual's life?
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:12.480
Uh, because a binge or eating a lot of food is a very predictable response to psychological restraint if there are certain foods avoided, and physiological restriction where we where we don't eat enough to meet our body's needs.
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:15.039
So it makes complete sense.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:19.119
The body and brain are doing exactly what they're designed to do, and that's to keep us alive.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.839
But it's like any eating disorder, it's very complex in terms of it's not just led by restriction.
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:32.559
Sometimes it starts off with restriction and then the neural patterns are developed and it becomes a coping strategy.
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:36.720
Sometimes it starts off as, oh, I feel sad.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:44.000
And that chocolate or that food made me feel a little bit better for a temporary amount of time.
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:50.720
But then the next time we go to that when we feel sad, it doesn't quite feel as good.
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:51.599
So we need a bit more.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.079
And then we meet a bit more and a bit more.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.880
And suddenly we're engaging in behaviors that we don't we just find ourselves in.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.200
We don't even link I feel sad to I'm eating.
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:13.599
It just has now become a distressing event in itself, and is what started as like a just a way to try and regulate because food is sensory, it helps, it does help us to regulate.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.759
Also, we've got things like trauma history, neurodivergence.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:27.200
You know, if we are if we experience ADHD, for example, we may have more impulsive behaviors, we may have different sensory needs.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:36.000
So we have to look at binge eating holistically rather than seeing it as a lack of willpower.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.400
And it's something that absolutely deserves support.
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:38.720
Yeah.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:42.640
Can I ask a question that's completely not in our notes anywhere?
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:46.319
But I feel like it's the type of question that a lot of people would resonate with.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:50.880
So I have made video responses to some people who talk about food addiction.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:51.359
Okay.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:56.799
And I don't necessarily know if that's a too slippery slope to go down if we're not doing it properly.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:03.119
But say someone describes themselves as I've been struggling with my body fat.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.799
People keep telling me to eat less, but I feel like I'm addicted to food.
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.680
I can't stop myself binge eating.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:32.000
And one of our responses to that, or one of my responses to that, is it's a good example of why telling people to just eat less food isn't actually very helpful because there are often very complicated emotional or neurobiological reasons why some people just don't seem to be able to implement that for whatever reason.
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:33.200
Absolutely.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:41.680
Food is so much more than energy and nutrients, it is memories, it has, you know, we are supposed to like food.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:44.000
If we didn't like food, we wouldn't be alive.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:50.000
It's it's a way, you know, it's supposed to activate those reward pathways as a survival mechanism.
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:52.720
If we didn't like food, probably our species wouldn't still be here.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:54.960
So it makes complete sense.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:02.079
And then if you add to it the human condition that actually food does make us feel good.
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:04.640
So if we're feeling bad, we will turn to food.
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:16.799
And if it's our only joy, if it's our only space where we have a moment of peace, then we will utilize that and it will become our coping mechanism to the world.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:24.240
And you know, by saying to someone, just eat less, if they feel that addiction to food.
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:29.680
And even though I would argue that clinically that might not be food addiction, isn't necessarily true.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.200
If it's true, if it feels true for them, it's important to meet them where they're at.
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:36.960
It's like saying to someone that's experiencing depression, just don't be so depressed.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.200
Like it's it's that's unhelpful and it just pushes shame onto someone.
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:42.160
Yeah.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:56.160
The other thing too, I would say about not only binge eating, but maybe other forms of red flag behaviors is that I think there's this assumption that only people in bigger bodies struggle with binge eating.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:08.720
Whereas there are people who are, I put this in heavy quotations, who are perfectly normal weight who might have very, very high frequent, you know, binge eating episodes.
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:12.240
And you wouldn't necessarily know that from looking at them.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:14.079
So there's that too.
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:15.839
Or, you know, but you look healthy.
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:16.720
There's there's that, of course.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:19.759
I don't want to open that kind of worms of like, you look healthy, you're not struggling.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.000
Yeah.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:21.519
You're a normal weight, you're not struggling.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:22.240
What do you mean?
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.599
So I think that is that can be very dismissive as well.
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:25.920
Yeah.
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.079
And an obstacle to getting support, I think, as well.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:28.480
Absolutely.
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:38.240
I think that was also part of the reason why I didn't take my own food psychology issues seriously because I was doing well physically.
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:38.480
Yeah.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:47.839
So I was like, no, I'm just doing what it takes and not realizing that psychology is a not necessary or not mandatory piece of collateral damage.
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:57.039
If someone was struggling with adhering to calorie targets or a strict meal plan, are they at fault?
00:30:57.359 --> 00:30:57.680
No.
00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:03.359
So I'm I suppose we're talking about this a little bit earlier, weren't we?
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:09.359
When I think back to me 15 years ago as a personal trainer before I became a dietitian.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:16.720
And like if I gave someone a meal plan, I, you know, you almost cringe at your previous professional things.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:23.519
That's something that I have completely changed my view of as I've been working with more and more people.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:30.799
And that's I would never give someone a meal plan now because nutrition is so much more than nutrients.
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:38.960
When, you know, a meal plan could look amazing on paper, but if someone can't follow it, there's no point to it.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:45.920
It doesn't take into account things like family life, executive function, time constraints, financial constraints.
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:53.200
Um, I think a lot of people that follow meal plans think that their food should be all cooked from scratch.
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:56.000
And that's not a reality that many of us live.
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:03.759
And convenient, convenience foods can absolutely have a place within our daily diets.
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:06.000
Um, and they can be a really helpful bridge.
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:12.160
And I always say fed is best, and that could be for babies and it could be for adults as well.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:24.000
But a meal that somebody has capacity to eat is going to be way more nutritious than this idolized meal plan that they have stuck on their fridge.
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:24.480
Yeah.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:27.680
I I get pushback whenever I talk about why I don't love meal plans.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:42.799
My my best example of that that I've used on the podcast before, but I I really detest the stereotypical personal trainer or fitness professional pointy finger of blame when someone can't stick to a diet.
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:54.319
And my example, the best example I can come up with to try and reframe that is a personal trainer came to me once and said, I've got a client who I'm just not having success with.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.000
They are very non-compliant.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.000
She won't stick with what I'm telling her.
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.039
I've given her dietary advice, I'm giving her exercise routine.
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:09.759
She is, and I don't think he used these words, but he was kind of implying that she was lazy.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:18.400
And when I sat down with her, just a very casual, like, I want to see if I can help before you hire me, before you pay me any money, or whatever.
00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:21.200
And I said, you know, tell me about your history.
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:24.960
And after a little while, I could feel that she was starting to open up.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:30.079
And she said, To be honest, the last personal trainer, he kept trying to get me to think, do things I didn't like doing.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:34.960
So he was trying to get me to count calories and I didn't like counting calories.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:41.759
And he tried me, tried to get me doing things like getting on the treadmill because it was best for calorie burning and I don't like going on the treadmill.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:42.160
Yes.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:46.240
And when I started working with her, I was very, very lax.
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:53.119
Her program on paper was not very um optimal, so to speak, but she loved it.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:58.000
And she was the most compliant in terms of exercise sessions that she had ever been.
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:00.880
So she was becoming more regular with her workouts.
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:07.039
She was happier with her overall nutrition, even though I basically told her very lax things.
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:14.480
And it was the fact that she thought she was at fault, and the personal trainer thought she was at fault because he prescribed something that was shit.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:15.039
Yes.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:15.519
Yeah.
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.360
And I think that's so common, unfortunately, in our industry.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:26.559
I cut, you know, I see individuals and they bring to me the plans that previous people have written for them.
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:38.239
And it's kind of like no wonder you can't follow that because they're asking you to cook all this fresh meals, and you know, you've got three kids and you work a job and you're up all night with a baby, you don't have capacity.
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:47.519
And it's, I think the best way that you can support someone is to meet them where they're at.
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.320
And it doesn't mean that that's where they're always going to be.
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:59.039
But if I can teach someone how to feed themselves on their worst days, then that's what my goal will always be.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.519
Because it's so easy to just print out.
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:04.400
And you can do it on like Google now, you can do it on AI.
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:07.360
You can get all these plans that can perfectly fit.
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:08.000
Yeah.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:11.599
But what's the point if you cannot follow them?
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:17.679
I love the idea what you said about making sure someone is eating on their worst days.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:26.719
And the reason I love that is because I always used to notice with clients and with myself that diet plans are often written with max motivation in mind.
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:26.960
Yeah.
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:33.360
And the moment that someone has a long day of work or a bad day of sleep or whatever, everything goes out the window.
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:36.719
So we've had a couple of days of sleep deprivation with baby.
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:36.960
Yeah.
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:42.480
And last night, for what ended up being half of my dinner was a box of cereal.
00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:42.639
Yeah.
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:46.800
Or like half a box of cereal, which I would never have written for myself.
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:49.519
But at the time, that felt like the best decision.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:49.840
Absolutely.
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.920
The best lay plans dwindled quickly when life throws shit at you.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:56.800
And ultimately, it was still giving you calories that your body needed.
00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:57.920
Yeah.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:04.960
And I think there is a massive difference between telling someone what to eat and teaching someone how to feed themselves.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:11.119
Because when you teach someone how to feed themselves, you they learn how to be flexible, like you did last night.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.840
That actually not everything has to always be optimal.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:21.840
You know, just sometimes getting something in me that is within my capacity, that is fine and that is okay.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:22.320
Yeah.
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:22.800
Yeah.
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:34.880
I think the other thing that rigid meal plans can inadvertently encourage is the all-or-nothing mentality, where if I'm not adhering and weighing up my food to the gram, I'm off plan.
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:35.199
Yeah.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:37.519
Yes.
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:38.159
Yeah.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:39.599
So that's another thing.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.559
Did you say it inadvertently?
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:44.320
Inadvertently.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:44.880
Okay.
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:46.719
I didn't know if it was an American English thing anyway.
00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:49.280
I didn't struggle to say the words so I was trying to be slow with it.
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:54.320
I thought for a moment, I thought for a moment it was one of those words that we said differently, like controversy and controversy.
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:56.480
Anyway, that doesn't matter.
00:36:56.719 --> 00:37:01.039
Um, you have worked with the British Army and competed in powerlifting.
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:01.599
Yeah.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:17.360
Where do you feel there's a separate blurred line, if you will, between dedicated athlete and disordered eating practices or obsessive exercise practices?
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:19.199
I think it's very, very blurred.
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:32.079
And like we were talking about earlier in terms of the fitness industry, I think the behaviors that are celebrated still, I think it's got less, but still with athletes in terms of training through exhaustion and illness.
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:43.679
Yeah, in in terms of, you know, even things like a female menstrual cycle, sometimes that scene, when we lose that, that's like the epitome of dedication as an athlete.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:45.840
And again, I hope that's changing.
00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:48.880
Um, but it is very, very blurred.
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:59.119
And I think when we're talking about weight making, sometimes it's a little bit different in terms of there's lots of factors that contribute to the way we eat.
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:02.960
And often a big factor in the fitness industry would be body image.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.440
But I would say probably in weight making, that's a smaller factor.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:15.679
So I think the behaviors can be similar in terms of restriction, but the reason why those behaviors are happening are perhaps slightly different.
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:22.000
There's not, doesn't, from my experience, there's not as a bigger factor of body image when it comes to weight making sports.
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:22.800
That's interesting.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:23.920
I love, I love that question.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:28.079
I really feel like, you know, that reminds me of uh in the world of bodybuilding.
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:46.000
I can't remember who said this, but there was someone, a colleague in the industry said basically bodybuilding, which some would argue is a sport, is the willingness to dip in and out of mental unhealthiness because they acknowledge there is no way to get to contest levels of lean in a way that is actually still healthy.
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:51.119
Because it's not, you know, we I used to believe that that was pro-health.
00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:51.440
Yeah.
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:53.440
We now know that it's very much not the case.
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:56.800
But if you're willing to do it, you have to know what you're getting into.
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:06.719
I was actually surprised that we got so much pushback when we first started talking about things like poor body image in the fitness industry or eating disorders in the fitness industry.
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:13.920
And part of the reason I was surprised was right back when I was probably a teenager and I was doing bicep curls in my bedroom.
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.679
I remember seeing a documentary.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:19.360
He went to bodybuilding gyms, like proper bodybuilders.
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.280
And I remember him saying, talking about body dysmorphia.
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:25.280
And it was a very casual conversation.
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:27.920
We don't need to get into the definitions and things.
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:34.159
Uh and he said to the guy, How many people in this bodybuilding gym do you think have body dysmorphia?
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:36.559
And he laughed and said, Well, everyone, that's why we're here.
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.079
And I found it funny because it wasn't something that he was defensive about.
00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:41.440
He's like, That's literally why we're here.
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:51.119
A lot of people turn to the gym and changing the way they look aesthetically to hopefully solve some things they're feeling inside.
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.159
So I think for me when I was young, it was probably insecurity.
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.760
I was like, I don't get that much interest from other people.
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:59.920
Maybe if I had a six-pack, I might be good looking.
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:01.119
Like, do you know what I mean?
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:02.880
That that's where it stems from.
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:05.599
And now you get all the attention from them from the guys.
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:13.519
And then I think it becomes it becomes a safety net and it becomes obsessive in in some individuals.
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:14.400
I think.
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:20.639
And then when you're in it, you don't see it because it is the nervous system that moves towards what's familiar.
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:33.920
And if we are around people that look similar to us or behave in a similar way to us, starting to then do something different that's perhaps looked down upon can feel like a threat.
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:45.119
And you know, that's that anxiety coming up if we try to move away or step back from those things because the nervous system is saying, Whoa, this is not that it's wrong, but it's unfamiliar for us.
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:53.679
I think this is a good reminder that what we see in the mirror doesn't always reflect the reality or what we perceive, the subjective experience.
00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:00.400
And I like to remind people that body image is not actually tied to how you actually look.
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:06.239
A lot of people assume that being in a bigger body size means your body image will necessarily be worse.
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:11.519
And if you are thin or quote unquote normal size or straight size, you don't have body image issues.
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:13.360
And that's all sometimes it's the opposite.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:13.599
Yeah.
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:20.719
That was actually one of the examples earlier on when I said, can we give examples of uh like diet culture messages?
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:21.599
That's a great one.
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:30.880
So a bot a body image thing for me, I remember really vividly, was an old friend of mine was literally one of the best in the world at fitness modeling.
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:34.800
In his federation, he was a competition winning numerous times.
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:40.880
In the tiniest percentile of most muscular, leanest men on the planet.
00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:43.360
And I was with him at a fitness expo.
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:45.760
And at fitness expo, it's very common to take photos.
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:51.440
And he actually said to me quietly, I'm not doing any photos with my top off because I've gained a few pounds.
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:55.760
But we're talking a few pounds of body fat from stage condition.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:56.239
Wow.
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:04.639
He was still in the tiniest, like the 99.999 percentile of most muscular, leanest dudes on the planet.
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.599
But at the time he felt too nervous about taking his top off.
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:18.639
And to me, that's a really great way of explaining the dichotomy of your own perceptions of your own body image don't always reflect what the mirror says.
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.800
So sometimes someone who's very thin can still look in the mirror and be really unhappy.
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:27.440
Whereas someone who isn't thin might say, Well, actually, I feel really confident.
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:28.480
I don't care about dieting.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:29.199
That's amazing.
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:29.519
Yeah.
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:29.840
Yeah.
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:44.400
And there is some um neurobiology around that because the part of our brain that picks up on body image when we are in or have been in a long-term chronic restriction, it doesn't see the body accurately.
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:49.039
The messages are mixed, it's not picking up accurately our body in space.
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:56.639
So I do always say to people that are in recovery from low weight eating disorders, your body image will often be the last thing to recover.
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.079
So, and that can be really, really challenging.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:00.559
Yeah.
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:08.159
Um, but that makes complete sense for individuals that are chronically restricted to get to a stage lean level as well.
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:11.199
Why they and I think I remember that as well.
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:19.440
You're still very, very lean, but because you've put on a little bit and that's perceived as a negative, yeah, it becomes all-encompassing.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:26.880
And especially when leanness equates to success, when the individual you're talking about is no longer lean, what does that mean for him?
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:29.119
Especially if it's been his everything.
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:29.920
Yeah.
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:36.719
Earlier you mentioned losing your period in sports and how sometimes it's actually celebrated or seeing as a, oh, well, good.
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:38.800
Now it's that's one inconvenience out of the way.
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:39.599
Yeah.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:45.360
What are what are some of the early warning signs of hypothalamic amenromea in women who train hard?
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:52.239
And do you think it's oftentimes dismissed that, oh, well, this is kind of what happens when you work out a lot and when you're very dedicated?
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:59.760
So I think that there has been more awareness of it over the past few years, which I think is amazing.
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:08.079
And there has been a more awareness of the costs of it that if a woman is experiencing that beyond fertility implications.
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:13.039
And I think what's also really important to say that it's not just experienced by lean individuals.
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:17.840
Women of any size body can experience it.
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:29.440
Because the hypothalamus is always looking at our internal environment in terms of energy availability, how hard we're training, the external environment in terms of stresses that are happening.
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.000
Is this an environment that I can reproduce in?
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:36.400
And if there's not enough energy availability, it doesn't matter what size body you're in.
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:38.559
You can still experience it.
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:50.159
But again, I think because we associate it so much with lean women, it's often mistreated in women of different body sizes.
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:50.880
I see.
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:58.480
But I would say symptoms are just to start with periods changing before losing them completely.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:04.800
Maybe your luteal phase getting shorter, ovulation maybe being missed or changing slightly.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:09.119
And then things like libido changing, fatigue, losing energy.
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:10.800
I think mood is a massive one.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.000
But we often don't relate it.
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:18.559
We often think, oh, we're just tired, you know, things are stressful.
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:21.440
Often it's not one of the first things that come to mind.
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:22.880
Like, am I eating enough food?
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:23.519
Yeah.
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:30.960
And how many cycles would you have to miss to say, oh, now that's H A.
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:31.199
Yeah.
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:32.079
Three cycles.
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:33.039
Three consecutive cycles.
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:34.239
Three consecutive cycles.
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:37.440
But often before that, cycles may lengthen.
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:41.280
Some people shorten, but luteal face tends to have the most impact on.
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:42.079
Interesting.
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:42.559
Yeah.
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:47.360
I think when uh 20 plus years ago I went through a bout of anorexia.
00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:54.000
And I would say to your point about mood disturbances, I was the moodiest I have ever been in my life.
00:45:54.159 --> 00:45:54.480
Yeah.
00:45:54.639 --> 00:46:01.920
If I, and again, I I was a perfectionist and I feel I feel like I still am in a lot of ways, but if things didn't go exactly so good at recovering.
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:08.000
But if things don't go exact if things didn't go exactly to my plan, I would throw an absolute tantrum.
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.000
I would get so angry.
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:19.440
And I think people don't, a lot of people, I don't think a lot of people realize that's actually a side effect of what happens of not eating enough.
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:25.599
Yeah, you develop those obsessive tendencies, psychological flexibility becomes so, so narrow.
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.480
So rigid.
00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:26.719
Yeah.
00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:42.880
And it makes complete sense that from an evolutionary perspective, if you are not having the one thing that keeps us alive, then everything else shuts down our ability for compression, play, presence, and our fuse becomes very, very short.
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:47.519
But that this isn't just within eating disorder or low-weight eating disorders.
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:50.480
You know, it can happen on a day-to-day basis with us.
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:59.039
You know, if I'm noticing, oh, I'm a bit ratty, or, you know, my patients isn't great with the kids today, then I'm like, oh, probably need a snack.
00:46:59.199 --> 00:46:59.440
Yeah.
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:08.480
So our body is very intelligent at making us focus on what the body needs in order to survive.
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:08.960
Yeah.
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:09.280
Yeah.
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:16.480
The other thing that happened to me too was that when I started recovering, one of my friends later said, it's nice to have your personality back.
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:18.159
You became a robot for a while.
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:20.960
And I think that that reminds me like you lose your personality.
00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:22.880
You can lose your sense of humor.
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:24.719
You can lose what makes you you.
00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:25.679
Yeah.
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:29.519
Because you're constantly, your body is constantly in a threat state.
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:30.000
Yes.
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:36.639
So if we're thinking of like nervous system regulation, polyvagal theory, we're constantly either in that fight, flight, or freeze.
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:39.039
Yes, because our blood sugars are all over the place.
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:42.480
We don't have enough energy available to perform basic functions.
00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:48.559
So it's not safe for us to be playful, be present, have fun.
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:49.039
Yeah.
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:50.159
Why would you relax?
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:51.760
And there is a there is a theory.
00:47:51.840 --> 00:48:02.400
I can't remember the title of the theory, where that's why some individuals develop a obsession with walking and steps as part of their disorder.
00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:16.159
In terms of back in when we were like caveman days and we had to move from place to place to find food, there'll be certain individuals that, when they didn't have enough food, were able to walk and walk and walk and walk and find food to create safety.
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:26.159
But only in this environment, there's never that end point of eating the food because they have the pressure of diet culture, body and rate, those types of things.
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:27.199
I never thought about that.
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:28.000
So it's interesting.
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:29.760
Migration theory, I want to say.
00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:31.199
Maybe it's migration.
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:32.000
Yeah.
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:43.039
We've um talked a lot about examples of people dieting for shows, etc., because it's easy to discuss relationship with food in the context of extreme dieting.
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:48.239
But most people listening to this, those are just examples that won't apply to them.
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:58.719
For the bigger audience, the mass audience, if someone just wanted to stop thinking about food so much, what would you recommend?
00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:05.840
So the first thing that I would look at if anyone told me that they're getting a lot of food noise, is we would look at are you eating enough food?
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:13.920
Because again, evolutionary, it serves a purpose for us to think about food if we're not eating enough of it because it wants us to eat it.
00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:17.280
Um so we'd look at are they eating enough energy overall?
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:25.679
Is that energy pretty evenly balanced across the day in terms of there's no troughs and dips in um blood glucose regulation?
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:30.079
We because the body and nervous system like predictability.
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:42.000
So if they know that food is coming every three to four hours, it's gonna be a meal that is satisfying, enjoyable, contains mixed macronutrients, then it can turn off the vigilance.
00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:49.840
It doesn't have to keep shouting, feed me, or that looks delicious, or you need to meal plan or you need to do this, because it knows in three or four hours you're gonna eat.
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:55.440
So I think that is primarily the thing that I would always ensure is happening.
00:49:55.679 --> 00:50:10.960
And that there's no cognitive restraint in terms of if we are eating chocolate, but then immediately saying, I shouldn't have eaten that, I'm never gonna eat that again, of course the noise is going to increase because we always want what we can't have.
00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:17.360
So I always say there's there's importance in having those foods that you get food noise about in regularly.
00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:19.519
And I would say typically it's sweet foods.
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:23.840
So if you are having some chocolate, put it in alongside lunch.
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.719
Because when we take those foods off a pedestal, they don't seem to have as much power over us.
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:32.559
Yes, that you know, that brings to mind the term food habituation.
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:47.679
And I think for me, the pushback that I get from a lot of people who have these food fears, let's say a brownie or, you know, a full-fat brownie or something like that, or a cookie, is well, every time I do try to eat it, I eat it in exorbitant quantities.
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:49.199
Therefore, I can't eat it.
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:54.880
And I'm saying, but what's happening is then you're perpetuating that same cycle that you're stuck in.
00:50:55.119 --> 00:51:03.679
So you have to go through the discomfort of you are going to probably feel a little bit out of control around that food for a while.
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:09.360
But once you get past the, and I don't feel like I'm ex explaining it in a way probably as eloquently as you could.
00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:13.920
Get past the hump, yeah, the excitement dies down.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:15.119
Yeah, absolutely.
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:15.440
Yeah.
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:16.559
And we see that a lot.
00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:23.199
And there's a lot of fear around that losing control when we start to introduce a food that perhaps we haven't allowed.
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:36.960
So, one way around this is say I'm just using the example chocolate, is that to start with, we would introduce it and they would have to, if possible, go to the shop every day to buy a single bar and then come back to their eating environment and have it.
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:44.800
Because you're there's no or there's limited risk, then we're reducing the triggers to continuing to eat that in a way that feels distressing.
00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:50.880
And then the next thing would be, for example, to buy a multi-pack where all the bars are wrapped up.
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:52.719
And again, putting them out of sight.
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:54.639
So we're reducing the triggers.
00:51:54.880 --> 00:52:04.000
And once that's done and that feels safe, we could then think of like buying uh more like a family pack of, say, chocolate buttons and separating that ourselves.
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:11.679
And so we're slowly exposing to more and more and more in different ways to eventually find this place of safety.
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:12.480
And it takes time.
00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:19.360
And for some people it will be a month, and for some people it might be a year, and there might be setbacks because food is regulatory.
00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:25.119
And if at one time it did make us feel soothed, then we're more likely to lean on that again.
00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:25.599
Yeah.
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:34.239
And eventually, hopefully, you can get to a point where you can have it around the house in your pantry for months, and you're you feel it, you feel like it doesn't control you.
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:34.639
Yes.
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:35.039
Finally.
00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:38.960
And you know that you don't need to eat it all right now because it's because it's always there.
00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:39.440
Yeah.
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:50.000
This might be a terrible question, but just in my head, as you were talking about that, I was going to say maybe it would be good to almost try to define.
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:57.360
I know it's not necessarily the kind of thing you would pinpoint, but what a healthy relationship with food would look like if someone was aspiring to that.
00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:06.239
Because the idea that someone would have a piece of chocolate and not eat the rest is actually quite unfathomable for some people.
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:11.360
So Sohi, as an example, has done a lot of amazing work with her own relationship with food.
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:18.639
And when we first started dating, I was blown away that she could eat half an apple and put and put the other half in the fridge.
00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:23.440
And I put it on my Instagram stories tongue in cheek.
00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:29.039
But to me, it was unfathomable that someone could eat half of something instead of finishing it off.
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:29.280
Yeah.
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:32.559
And so many people replied being like she must be a serial killer.
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:43.360
But it made me realize that a lot of people don't necessarily understand that eating to fullness and genuine satiety often means that you don't have to finish the whole thing.
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:43.599
Yeah.
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:54.079
So maybe it'd be good to give examples of what a healthier relationship with food might look like for some people who aren't quite sure what that might be.
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:54.400
Yeah.
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:54.880
Yeah.
00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:57.039
So I would say it looks pretty ordinary.
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:02.159
And I did a um, I did some CPD around the neurobiology of eating disorders.
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:11.840
And the the psychiatrist that led that, he said, and they stuck in my mind that food thoughts of around 15 to 20 percent are that's normal.
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:14.320
Anything above that feels like too much.
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:19.360
So we want to be paying attention to our nutrition, but it not be like our full-time job.
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:21.440
Do you mean of all of your thoughts?
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:22.239
Our free thoughts.
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:22.639
Okay.
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:22.800
Yeah.
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:32.079
So for example, if we're just randomly thinking for it to be like that's very normal to dedicate some time into planning and those types of things and shopping lists.
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:39.599
But I would say from a practical eating perspective, it would a healthy relationship looks like having a flexible rhythm.
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:44.239
So you'd probably have three meals, a couple of snacks each day, evenly spread throughout the day.
00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:54.559
It would mean that you are okay to eat out when it comes to it, but maybe you're looking at what you've had that day and realize you're a little bit low on protein.
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:58.320
So you'll just make sure that you're prioritizing protein in that meal.
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:04.239
It might look like that you enjoy an ice cream on the beach with your kids and you don't feel guilty about that.
00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:12.480
It might look like you've had a really stressful day and you can account for that and choose a ready meal that you've got in your freezer.
00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:26.000
I'd say it looks like nothing spectacular, but something that you can repeat on a daily basis, making sure that most of your meals contain mixed macronutrients and a couple of different colours, but not feeling alarmed if it does if it doesn't.
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:30.559
You mentioned kids uh during that.
00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:36.480
What about things that we can do to encourage our children to have a healthy relationship with food?
00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:48.159
So I think the most important thing here is us, and it's about how you know kids they hardly ever listen to us, but they will always watch us.
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:57.840
So I think it's so important to let them see you eat, let them see you sit at the table and you know, eat until you are satisfied.
00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:03.760
Let them see your belly blow as it fills with nourishment and not make a comment about it.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:10.320
Let them see you eating vegetables and lentils and chicken, and also let them see you eating chocolate.
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:21.119
And try not to moralize foods, good and bad, or even healthy or unhealthy, and just help them understand what food can do for your body and for your brain.
00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:27.440
I think there's so much pressure on children to try new foods all the time.
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:39.199
And I think it's really important that when you're sat down and having a meal, your focus is on the connection and how food aids connection rather than being something that they have to try every element of their plate.
00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:40.000
Yes.
00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:41.119
I really love that.
00:56:41.199 --> 00:56:54.159
That reminds me of another dietitian shared this tip that really stuck with me is serve the dessert at the same time as the main meal because it helps neutralize the food.
00:56:54.400 --> 00:57:04.000
And I don't know that it has to be literal, because not everyone's gonna do that, it's fine, but I think it's really to discourage this idea that you have to earn your dessert by eating your broccoli first.
00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:05.760
And I really love that.
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:06.480
Yeah.
00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:08.400
That reminded me of two things.
00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:12.320
The first one is very silly, but I think it's so people understand what you said.
00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:14.480
You said that children are always watching.
00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:19.679
We have recently talked about a funny video that we saw when the mum and the dad were having a drink.
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:20.000
Yes.
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:27.039
And they both did it on purpose when they were panning the camera and had a drink and went, ah, and then the dad did the same thing.
00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:33.760
And then the child, who was probably one, maybe not even that, finished a drink and went, and it was so funny.
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:39.440
It's funny that they didn't even necessarily know it wasn't an intentional thing, but the children are observing.
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:49.039
And I recently, or I'm not sure how recent it is now, but I remember you saying you would never want your child to see you skipping a meal.
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:49.440
Yeah.
00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:56.800
Are there any other examples of things you would you would not want a child to see in terms of food behavior or things you might do, for example?
00:57:57.039 --> 00:58:00.800
Um, I think weighing food, unless I'm making like a cake, yeah, would be a huge one.
00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:02.000
That's a great example.
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:06.719
Um I think eating something different from the rest of my family.
00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:12.880
I think I think there's nuance around like things like eating an ice cream on the beach, like eating an ice cream if I want one.
00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:13.280
Yeah.
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:27.039
Um, but allowing my, I think I think my goal for my children would be not to eat like the healthiest diet, but to feel safe in their body, to feel safe around food, to try things and to trust their body and to trust their appetite.
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:34.800
I think it's very common and very easy for us to say, if a child says to us, Oh, I'm really hungry, no, you're not, you can't be hungry.
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:35.039
Yeah.
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:43.199
Or to, or for them to be like, I don't really want my dinner, and for us to be like, come on, because feeding is emotional, because we've put our time and energy into that.
00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:43.679
Yeah.
00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:50.239
So I think really trying, again, it as much of parenting, it makes us confront a lot of ourselves, doesn't it?
00:58:50.800 --> 00:59:04.480
To um to sit with some of the things that we say and just to understand, like with compassion, where we've learned them from, so that we're not passing some of that generational diet trauma down the line.
00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:04.880
Yeah.
00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:13.679
Another one that I think of is not commenting on the quantity of food that even not only to your child, but to another, even to another adult.
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:27.519
Because even if if you're the mom and you're talking, you're making comments about what someone else at the table is eating, the child is observing this and saying, Oh, should she be self-conscious about how much she's eating?
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:30.480
Therefore, should I be self-conscious about how much I'm eating?
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:36.880
And even as adults, I found that when we get those comments, it does make me feel a bit more, why are you paying attention to that?
00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:39.519
Like I have a big appetite, I know that, and I'm fine with that.
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:42.400
But now you've made me feel like there's something wrong with that.
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:55.679
I know that we've talked about this recently, but for example, I uh if I had been doing a lot of running and I was especially hungry in the evening, I remember being with someone, it doesn't matter who it is, that said, like, wow, he's eating a lot.
00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:59.280
And I remember having this we'll put their headshot on the video to talk about.
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:11.840
I remember having this slightly defensive feeling, and that's that's actually kind of odd because I am uh I don't really like using it, but let's say I'm a stereotypically healthy looking guy.
01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:15.119
I have no reason to be worried about the number of calories I'm eating.
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:22.480
Yes, but all of a sudden, I actually felt like, oh, I wanted to go and get seconds, and I'm now a little bit nervous too.
01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:22.719
Yes.
01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:28.559
And it reminded me of how easy it is to pick those things up, especially if you're a child.
01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:29.119
Yes.
01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:32.400
And this is obviously especially pertinent for us now.
01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:37.039
We have a daughter and we want to teach her healthy habits around food.
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:46.480
But whenever I've talked about this online, I've had a lot of people message me saying things like, I remember starting a diet because of something I heard when I was five.
01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:58.480
Someone who told me that whether it was a doctor who said I was overweight, or a parent who said I was looking chubby, or a grandparent who said maybe I should try eating salad or whatever.
01:00:58.639 --> 01:01:11.280
And I think it's amazing how many people have picked up on tiny things or what might seem tiny things when they're younger that have stuck with them for literal decades and they might not even realize that that is where it started from.
01:01:11.519 --> 01:01:11.760
Yeah.
01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:37.760
In a clinic, the amount of people, one of the questions that I'll ask on an initial consultation will be from the day you were born to now, let's go through a timeline and the amount of focus that goes on to those early years around things that they've picked up as children, a mother's relationship with food is so important.
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:44.480
So as mothers, I know it's like another additional pressure for us, amongst everything else.
01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:54.320
That the best thing we can do for our children is to try and be compassionate around our relationship with food.
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:55.519
I think.
01:01:55.760 --> 01:01:56.159
Yeah.
01:01:58.079 --> 01:02:04.960
One more thing I'm gonna add is and I I thought it was really insightful when someone shared this.
01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:10.800
They said don't praise people, don't praise your kids for finishing their plate.
01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:19.280
And the reasoning was then you teach them that they have to finish their plate every time, and it teaches them not to honor their satiety cues.
01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:32.960
There's gonna be times when maybe you serve them too much food for what they need at that meal, and it should be okay for them to stop and leave a few mouthfuls left without being forced to say, well, there's still food, so I have to keep eating.
01:02:33.039 --> 01:02:35.039
Because then that's something they're gonna have to unlearn as adults.
01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:35.519
Absolutely.
01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:38.159
And I think that goes even beyond that.
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:44.559
If we're talking about body autonomy, if your child is saying to you, I don't want this in my body, and you're saying, But you have to have it in your body.
01:02:44.800 --> 01:02:51.599
We learn them at an early, we teach them at an early age that we other people can override the control of your body.
01:02:51.679 --> 01:02:51.920
Yes.
01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:58.960
And I think that's it's something that you don't think of, but that happens later on in life that's actually really, really important.
01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:23.440
Speaking of boundaries, the one hard boundary I do draw with our daughter with other people, actually, is you do not comment on her body, you do not praise her body size in any way, you don't critique it in any way, you do not comment on her what what or how much she's eating, other than to say things like, that looks really good.
01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:24.320
That looks delicious.
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:26.480
How did you make that?
01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:28.960
What are the what are the seasonings in this?
01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:29.519
Yeah.
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:35.199
And uh because we understand deeply how much it can impact them in a negative way.
01:03:35.360 --> 01:03:35.519
Yeah.
01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:43.920
And I think that will be powerful so powerful for her to not be in be a recipient of everyone else's judgment.
01:03:44.559 --> 01:03:47.599
You know, even if people are saying it in a positive way, right?
01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:48.800
Even if they mean well.
01:03:50.320 --> 01:03:53.440
Can I use an example that we've talked about recently?
01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:54.960
If I remove all names.
01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:55.519
Okay.
01:03:56.159 --> 01:04:04.000
So uh we know someone whose child, male, female, otherwise doesn't matter.
01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:09.920
They thought that she was perhaps a little bit too chubby for her age.
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:14.559
And they said, What should we do about their stomach?
01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:15.599
She's two.
01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:20.000
I was being I was deliberately being so vague that no one would know who it is.
01:04:20.239 --> 01:04:21.360
But if you say she, that's fine.
01:04:21.440 --> 01:04:22.639
Okay, so she yeah, she's two.
01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:25.760
But she said, What are we gonna do about her stomach?
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:27.360
Her pudgy belly, basically.
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:42.639
And apparently she you could tell she'd registered it and was a bit like and I thought, Imagine, I'm not necessarily sure if she'd remember that, but the idea that a two-year-old is already thinking, Oh, I didn't realize that was something I had to yeah, yeah.
01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:43.280
Is that wrong?
01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:45.440
Is that I'm don't get wrong, like babies are squidgy.
01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:47.280
Our baby is gloriously squidgy.
01:04:47.519 --> 01:04:48.000
Very squidgy.
01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:48.480
Yeah.
01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:53.679
Um, but the idea that there's this tiny child that all of a sudden is like, is there something wrong with me?
01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:54.960
Do I need to change that?
01:04:55.679 --> 01:04:56.559
Heartbreaking to me.
01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:56.960
Yeah.
01:04:57.039 --> 01:05:02.320
And but that shows how diet culture trauma moves through generations.
01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:02.800
Yes.
01:05:03.039 --> 01:05:07.440
And it will continue to move through generations until some generations removed.
01:05:07.599 --> 01:05:07.840
Yeah.
01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:09.199
Until someone is pretty much.
01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:18.639
If if that were if that were if we were in that situation, that would have been enough for me to directly confront the person recognized.
01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:19.440
Yeah, we weren't there.
01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:20.320
This was relate to us.
01:05:20.559 --> 01:05:26.000
And then probably draw the line of if this happens again, we will not actually have you around.
01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:26.320
Yes.
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:28.400
This person anymore.
01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:34.320
It's very especially when it is family, or especially if it's someone that you're otherwise very close with.
01:05:35.039 --> 01:05:36.800
So I know it can be really tough.
01:05:37.119 --> 01:05:46.079
So let's say your everyday person who's listening to this who wants to improve their health, but they detest the idea of traditional dieting.
01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:54.320
What kind of strategies would you recommend they might want to adopt or avoid if they were one of those people?
01:05:54.800 --> 01:05:58.079
So a lot of my work surrounds being well fed.
01:05:58.239 --> 01:06:11.599
So I am really Really passionate about the brain and the nervous system as well as the body, because I think there's a lot of focus on the body in the nutrition space, and we often forget that it has such a monumental impact on our brain.
01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:18.800
So I want nutrition to support individuals to have capacity for living life and it to play a smaller part.
01:06:19.039 --> 01:06:21.840
So they have lots of energy and focus.
01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:25.760
And so that primarily focuses, I would say, on two things to begin with.
01:06:26.000 --> 01:06:31.440
One is to create a stable and regular eating pattern because the brain and the body love predictability.
01:06:31.519 --> 01:06:37.760
They like knowing when food is coming, and that creates a sense of safety that they don't have to keep thinking about food anymore.
01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:42.000
And then the other thing would be to make sure that there was no deficiencies present.
01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:51.679
Things like iron, omega-3, vitamin D, these can all have such a massive impact if you are deficient without even realizing it.
01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:56.960
So I would say testing is really important just to see where your levels are initially.
01:06:57.119 --> 01:07:04.320
And then if there are deficiencies or depletions present, ideally a food-first approach, but often supplementation is needed.
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:08.639
But working with a nutrition professional is really important when we're thinking about supplements.
01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:09.119
Yeah.
01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:24.079
If someone was terrified by the idea of the cost of a nutrition panel, for example, are there any general pieces of healthy dietary advice that you think are safe to I'm not saying prescribe, obviously.
01:07:24.400 --> 01:07:26.639
Recommend for recommend to a kind of wider audience.
01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:32.639
It's like, yeah, here are some healthy eating tips that I feel safe putting out to an audience without knowing anything about them.
01:07:32.960 --> 01:07:38.400
So firstly, in the UK, you should be able to go to the GP and request a nutrient panel, and that shouldn't cost you anything.
01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:40.239
They should just add it onto a standard blood panel.
01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:41.920
In America, it's probably only a million dollars.
01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:45.280
So how much would that cost in America?
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:46.000
I don't even know.
01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:50.000
I don't know, but my health insurance is something like$500 a month.
01:07:50.239 --> 01:07:50.480
Wow.
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:50.800
Yeah.
01:07:51.039 --> 01:07:51.280
Okay.
01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:51.920
So different.
01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:52.079
Yeah.
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:53.440
Okay.
01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:57.920
So so is that because you're a woman or I don't know.
01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:01.280
I think maybe it's because of the premiums that I'm paying for and stuff.
01:08:01.360 --> 01:08:06.800
But even as a side tangent, real quick, um, our hospital bill for childbirth, 20 grand.
01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:07.840
Wow.
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:10.320
With insurance down to seven to eight.
01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:10.639
Wow.
01:08:10.800 --> 01:08:14.960
When I told my UK friends who live here, I said, Oh, it's now at seven to eight.
01:08:15.039 --> 01:08:16.800
And they said, Oh, but insurance will take care of that, right?
01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:17.680
And I'm like, no, no, no.
01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:18.640
This is after insurance.
01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:21.840
And she it took about three back and forths for her to understand.
01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:23.439
No, this is what I still owe.
01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:24.479
And she was floored.
01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:24.800
Yeah.
01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:25.760
So anyway, yeah.
01:08:25.920 --> 01:08:27.039
Great for the NHS.
01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:27.279
Yes.
01:08:28.159 --> 01:08:29.840
So um health eating tips.
01:08:29.920 --> 01:08:42.640
So things like regular eating, mixed meals, making sure as much as possible within capacity, there's some sort of um fibrous carbohydrate in there, a protein source, a healthy fat, and two colours.
01:08:42.880 --> 01:08:43.920
And that is repeated.
01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:47.439
Yeah, and that is repeated three times throughout the day.
01:08:47.760 --> 01:09:03.920
In between, some delicious and nutritious snacks often helps, making sure that you're you're putting some energy around workouts to support performance and recovery, making sure that you're eating oily fish, so things like salmon, mackerel, a couple of times a week.
01:09:04.159 --> 01:09:26.079
And that if you're not eating things like red meat, then you can try and keep your iron stores steady by cooking in a cast iron pan, making sure that any foods that contain iron you have away from things like coffee and tea, and that you have them alongside things vitamin that contain vitamin C, like orange juice.
01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:31.920
Often, if people don't eat meat and need iron, then fortified cereals can play a role here.
01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:34.800
Wow, processed food.
01:09:35.359 --> 01:09:35.760
That's a joke.
01:09:35.920 --> 01:09:36.239
That's a joke.
01:09:36.399 --> 01:09:37.119
Right, we've talked about that.
01:09:37.439 --> 01:09:40.079
To clarify, the thing with coffee and tea is the caffeine, correct?
01:09:40.239 --> 01:09:41.119
The tannins in it.
01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:46.159
So even a decaf, you'd still want to have away as much as possible.
01:09:46.479 --> 01:09:48.880
It's not this is like idealized.
01:09:49.680 --> 01:09:50.239
I like that.
01:09:50.399 --> 01:09:51.520
Thanks for correcting me.
01:09:51.760 --> 01:09:52.640
That was really good.
01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:55.680
Uh, we're gonna move on to our final two questions that we ask every guest.
01:09:55.840 --> 01:09:59.039
The first one is what is something you've changed your mind on?
01:09:59.439 --> 01:10:21.119
So, as someone that has lived through diet culture, it would definitely be the notion that health is looks a certain way or is in a particular body size, or that nutrition has a right and a wrong, and that, you know, even things like processed foods, convenience foods have a certain role to play in our nutrition.
01:10:21.359 --> 01:10:23.680
Actually, there's so much that I've changed my mind on.
01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:26.640
We would agree with you on that.
01:10:27.119 --> 01:10:30.560
And final question is what is a hill you are willing to die on?
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:36.079
A hill that I'm willing to die on is that nutrition isn't just nutrients.
01:10:36.399 --> 01:10:40.159
And food should never just be about macronutrients.
01:10:40.479 --> 01:10:43.199
It is about so much more.
01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:57.920
It creates memories, it supports connection, it is sensory, it is playful, it such plays such an important role in our lives, other than just the macronutrients and the micronutrients that it brings our bodies and brains.
01:10:58.079 --> 01:10:58.239
Yeah.
01:10:58.560 --> 01:11:06.399
That reminds me of those parody videos where you have a bodybuilder who is scanning the aisles in a supermarket and it says, This is how I see food now.
01:11:06.479 --> 01:11:10.000
And it's literally just calories, protein, carbs, fat, calories, protein, carbs, fat.
01:11:10.239 --> 01:11:16.319
I mean, we've all been through that phase a lot, but it sounds like thankfully we're the three of us are are all out of it.
01:11:16.479 --> 01:11:29.520
But that reminds me that a lot of people like to talk about emotional eating as if it's always a bad thing, or that you should never derive joy from food, but it should be a source of joy.
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But as you were saying earlier, it shouldn't be your only source of joy.
01:11:34.159 --> 01:11:44.079
And so I think it's a good reminder that we're allowed to actually have food make us feel better or use food as a way of connection or celebration, and that's okay.
01:11:44.239 --> 01:11:45.520
We don't have to feel bad about that.
01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:56.079
Yeah, and I think that's um so important, but I think that relationship that women have with pleasure in general is complex, but a conversation for another day.
01:11:56.319 --> 01:11:56.640
Yeah.
01:11:57.520 --> 01:11:59.039
True, true, true, true.
01:11:59.279 --> 01:12:00.079
Thank you so much.
01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:05.760
I have learned so much during this episode, and I feel like I could have gone on for another three hours.
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I'm so happy that we got to pin you down for today.
01:12:09.439 --> 01:12:11.840
I've so great here.
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:12.640
I'm so glad.
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Thank you so much.
01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:14.479
We've enjoyed this chat.
01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:15.279
Me too.
01:12:15.359 --> 01:12:16.800
Thank you so much for having me.