Why Human Masculinity?

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Hello and welcome to the Why Humans Podcast, where we explore the very human reasons people are turning to AI.
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My name is Adam Dodge, and I am the founder of NTAB.
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My name is Sloane Thompson, and I'm the director of education and AI initiatives at NTAB.
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And I'm Dr.
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Said D.
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Hill, and I'm an independent consultant in the field of men and masculinities.
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Very on point for this episode, Saeed.
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Since we're talking about masculinity today, Barry, y'all are in for a treat.
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If you're listening in, obviously you are if you're hearing me talking, because I always learn something from Saeed when we when we explore this topic.
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And I'm excited to do this one because I think we're going to approach this from the impact of AI on masculinity from a direction that many aren't thinking about.
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And there's there's a lot to explore here.
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One of the things that we all talk about, and this is all thanks to Saeed, is this idea of restrictive masculinity.
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You know, Sloane and I and Saeed, we all give talks, we all talk about these issues with folks.
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And Saeed framed this idea of instead of talking about toxic masculinity, talking about this through the lens of restrictive masculinity.
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Because as a man, if someone said, Hey, I want to talk to you about toxic masculinity, I have a little bit of an aversion to that Saeed.
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And it doesn't really make me want to come to the table or play ball.
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And you introduced us to this reframing by just changing one word from toxic to restrictive.
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Could you just, in case folks don't know what that is, could you talk a little bit about what that means?
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Sure.
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So a little bit of background as a psychologist that does this work, I have found similar to what you just said, Adam, so many people, when I try to talk to men about masculinity, it's always an eye roll.
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And it was always like, oh, you're gonna call me toxic.
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And personally, on one hand, I didn't want to use a toxic word anymore because of responses like that.
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But also, it doesn't really give me any information.
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You know, even as a researcher in this, how do you define or operationally quote unquote define toxicity?
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Like, what does that really mean?
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It's a nice pop culture word, but it has no real meaning to it.
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And so I really started to think, well, what does what am I talking about when it comes to this version of masculinity?
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When people are really saying toxic, what does that really look like?
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I mean, I think for me, honestly, I was just in my room one day and I was like, it really feels restrictive.
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I feel like masculinity, taken to its like dialed up to 100, is often like you always have to show up one way of being a man at all times.
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And if you aren't those one or two or three ways of being a man at all times, then you're less than a man, right?
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You always have to be in control.
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You always have to be the breadwinner, you always have to want sex or achieve sex, like all of these very rigid ways of being.
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And so to me, restrictive masculinity is sort of a more of an exclusionary like form of masculinity that really offers a very narrow definition of what it means to be a man or masculine.
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So it really restricts men to being to what is acceptable to be a man, to being very restrictive around things like appearance.
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Men look a certain way, behaviors, men act a certain way.
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Men have certain beliefs and attitudes and pressures.
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And so you have to act and behave and embody all of those traditional forms of masculinity, or you risk being sort of ostracized from masculine spaces and discussions and those sorts of things.
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So the in in when we really break it down, restrictive masculinity gets at how a real man, quote unquote, thinks, acts, and feels.
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And if you deviate from those things, then you are deemed less than a man, and there's some social consequences for you because of that.
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And so that's what I'm sort of getting at.
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Wow.
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I so much is coming up for me right now, even though I've heard you talk about this a lot.
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And I just feel like the significance of AI as relative to this idea of restrictive masculinity and why someone might feel like why a man or boy might feel compelled to try to find some kind of escape hatch from the pressures that restrictive masculinity places on them and why AI might be talking to a chatbot or an AI companion or an AI therapist or whatever it whatever it is might be just like an oasis in the desert, right?
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When it comes to this.
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Well, let me give you this example.
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So often when we talk about masculinity, we talk about this context of what we call the man box, meaning that the all of that restrictive stuff I just talked about exists within this box or framework of being a man.
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So you always have to be in the box, right?
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Always in control, always the brand breadwinner, always achieving sex and those sorts of uh thoughts, right?
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I'm always tough, always strong, always stoic and those sorts of things.
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So I and I often ask this, and I'll ask you, maybe Adam, as a as another man here, right?
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If I were to quite literally trap you inside of a box, how might that feel to you?
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Yeah.
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I mean, it would feel it would be anxiety inducing, it would be f hopelessness, right?
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Feel like I have no way out and just generally uncomfortable, right?
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Like just jump as jump out of my want to jump out of my skin uncomfortably.
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Yeah.
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Well, absolutely, right?
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You would feel all of these, these things about that.
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But then if I were to offer you sort of a safety valve to that or escape from that box, you would probably be really excited.
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But then what if I gave you all the tools to get out of the box?
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But then I said, hey, you know what?
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Getting out of that box though, you can get out.
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But what I'm gonna do is then make fun of you for it.
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I'm gonna tell you that you're less than a man because you use those tools.
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You should just be able to get out on your own, right?
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Do it on your own.
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And you asked for help and you got that help from me.
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So you're less than a man now.
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Like, and making fun of you or mocking you for that.
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That's a horrible exchange, I feel like.
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And I feel like that's what is going on in a lot of the masculinity dynamics when it comes to restrictive, is that I want to sort of unrestrict masculinity, but what does that involve?
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It involves things like maybe being a little bit more vulnerable with people in your life.
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It involves maybe going to therapy or coping differently.
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And so if I take those abilities away from you because I'm gonna ostracize you and make fun of you for it, what are men turning to?
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Well, they're turning to like substances potentially.
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Or it gets, it surfaces as like anger and hostility and maybe even violence for some men, not just to others, but to themselves as well.
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And I think that's where AI really comes in here is I think AI sort of offers you all of the humanity, quote unquote, that you really want deep down.
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Because to be in the box at all times means to deny your humanity, right?
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And I think AI kind of comes along that says, hey, I'm gonna give you all of that significance, all of that validation, that identity that you're sort of looking for, that you really crave, but you don't have to really ask for from other human beings.
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Like I here's AI to just help provide the space for that.
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And it makes, it simulates men feeling that humanity that they really deep down want, but don't feel like is achievable for them because of the shame and guilt and and all of that that comes along with it, the anxiety that comes along with it.
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So I take notes while we're doing these podcasts.
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I like I'm literally just writing things down.
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And so I am a nerd.
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I love this is my shower lemons.
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So Saeed, while you were talking about all of these different masculine traits that put you squarely inside the man box in a really recognizably awesome masculine way.
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What I just did was I sort of made like AI at the center of it.
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And then in all of these different directions, arrows out to all the different qualities of a really great, successful man.
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And so it's like being strong, being desired, being correct and competent, being the breadwinner, belonging to a really valuable, worthy man group.
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And I've I, you know, you were talking about AI being able to meet all of those needs for men who don't necessarily feel like they can meet them in their in-person, offline lives.
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And I was almost kind of matching up a specific type of AI app or an online space that's gonna fill that need.
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And so I'm like, okay, the this sort of masculine desire to be confidently correct and competent.
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Well, now you've got Chat GPT.
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Be correct all the time, have every answer that you need at your fingertips.
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Being desired AI girlfriend or an AI wingman who's gonna get you a human girlfriend, being strong, being in control.
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Okay, well, you now have this like this escape space where you can share all of your deepest thoughts with no vulnerability.
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You can be strong because you're never gonna be hurt when you share with your AI companion or you know, with Chat GPT all of your thoughts that you really need to get off your chest.
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And then in terms of belonging, social media, the manosphere, gaming spaces.
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There are all sorts of spaces where, as our social infrastructures in the offline world have collapsed and men don't necessarily feel like they have those places to go, now there's a place to go.
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There's an online space to go for male bonding and male companionship.
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And then Breadwinner, you know, we've got a whole online economy where people who are underemployed in the offline world can like make a quick buck.
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They can trade in crypto, they can, you know, pimp out an AI woman on Omic fans.
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And so it's like literally every single need, every single like masculine unmet need for somebody, there's now an AI app where you can go and you can be the man you want to be.
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Yeah.
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And and just to add on to the breadwinner piece, you know, there are these like vibe coding, AI-assisted coding, where it's like build now, you don't need an engineer.
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AI can be your engineer.
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Go build, go forth and build something.
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And I we're at NTAB, we're doing work in this space, and we go into the Discord servers and the communities around vibe coding, and they are like 90%.
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I mean, this is unscientific, but I would argue like 95% plus men and boys doing this.
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Like it is definitely this draw.
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And they're not so much so that one of the mainstream AI coding, vibe coding companies has a separate hackathon called She Builds just to incentivize women to, because like the regular hackathon is just like dominated by men that are building, you know, crypto apps and and find, you know, finance forward apps and and to to make money and do these things.
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Like, well, we have to have a space where people are building for good or for social connection or things like that.
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And so, yeah, it's playing into, I think, all these, yeah, it's a great framing, Sloan, that each sort of piece of the pie restrictive masculinity pie that Said was citing has its corresponding point in AI.
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And it's just Yeah, I think something to consider too when it comes to the restrictive aspects of masculinity is also what restrictive masculinity teaches you about your relationships.
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And I think if you take restrictive masculinity to its logical conclusion around relationships, it's that you should be in charge and in control of your relationships.
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You see it all the time with men that are deeply entrenched in misogynistic thinking or the manosphere and things like that, is that to even consider the needs of another human being, especially women in your life, is to be weak, right?
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To negotiate is to be weak.
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You should be in control at all times, right?
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And so I think in some ways, AI sort of delivers on this original restrictive masculinity or even manosphere promise that relationships really require nothing of you.
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It demands nothing of you and it rewards everything for you, right?
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That's sort of the ideal relationship.
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It's perfectly responsive to you, it's always available to you, and it's incapable of having its own needs because to contend with others' needs is to mean that you're less than a man, right?
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And I don't think that that's a coincidence that these products are largely designed by men for men, and they have a particular version of what this ideal relational male relationship sort of looks like, restrictive one at that, where the other party is just kind of there to serve you, to make you feel powerful.
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And so understanding the design intentions behind that and why AI companionship is sort of disproportionately sort of this like male phenomenon, I think is a really important.
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There's important lines to be drawn there.
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Yeah.
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We talk about this all the time in our trainings around AI is the that the sort of go-to marketing playbook for companions, AI therapy apps, it's like this is a judgment-free space, right?
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This is you're not going to be judged here.
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So come on in, right?
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And the more I listen to you talk and the more I think about this, I think that market, who is that marketing for?
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Right.
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Because it is everywhere.
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And I think it's for men, right?
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I think this is the idea of like who's going to resonate most with that messaging, that marketing, that that copy, right?
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Where what's going to catch my attention?
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Where I can basically shortcut getting myself out of the manbox, right?
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I don't have and we talk Solan and I talk about this a lot about AI being shortcuts for a lot of things.
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And I think it's a shortcut for getting out of like using tools to get out of the man box.
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And do all these things, sort of like what the men who cause harm, the work you work with men who cause harm, Saeed, and they you might be as not to like speak for you, but I think it's fair to say that I've heard you say that you might, you're probably the only man in their life where they're having these with that they're having these conversations with, right?
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But now AI is sort of this outlet for them to use it.
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And so that I wonder if this is going to allow people to sort of main basically remain in the manbox by using this shortcut to sort of get everything out or you know, simulate vulnerability and all these things, but actually not go anywhere.
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Yeah.
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And I think that like one thing that's coming up for me in like sort of some some dots that I'm connecting is that in terms of those interactions and those spaces that are going to be simulated by AI into the equation is not just like does this relationship exist for you or not?
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No, then we're gonna have it with AI.
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It's the the quality of the relationship.
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And by that I don't mean the way that we think about quality with all the like healthy relationships traits, and you know, is this a relationship that's reciprocal and based on intimacy and trust and all those things?
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But quality, as in like in the alpha male points system, how many points does this space get you or does this relationship get you?
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And you know, thinking about like an AI girlfriend, okay, is it more man by this restrictive masculinity definition to have a super A plus 10 out of 10 fantasy woman that you're interacting with or a compromise into the real world, not as many points in the hotness, sexiness, submissiveness scale human woman.
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Like, you know, if if you're faced with this fantasy versus reality, do I retreat into my online world and be the man that I want to be with the super hot AI girlfriend that I think I deserve but can't get in the real world versus like entering into the real world and being confronted with reality and not being able to rack up those points?
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What what is the what is the better solution for that sort of fragile male space, rewarding fantasy or fall short reality?
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Because yeah, when you when you enter into that sort of like points system, you know, masculinity identity, I I don't, I'm not sure people can tolerate failure and fantasy is better.
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I think absolutely fantasy feels better for people because I think ultimately it feels it it depends on how you feel sort of internally about yourself.
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I think, for example, I think a lot of men might look at men who are, I don't know, the top one or two percent of men who are getting whatever, whoever they want to romantically, right?
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Like these are your men who are six foot two and like really chiseled jawlines, right?
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Like and look really hot or something like that.
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And they get women and all these other things.
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And I think a lot of men look at that and say, like, well, I'll never be able to achieve those sorts of things.
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And so how can I achieve the feeling maybe that those men might have without the realistic aspect of being able to go out and just like land women and stuff like that?
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Well, I'm going to retreat in and still feel that power and still feel that validation, even if I can't get that in this like waking real world outside of there.
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And I think like there, there's there's something to that for folks.
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It's just like I feel I can get entrenched in this fantasy because I don't have to live with the reality of what might be coming up for me.
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Because I also think, though, that there's also not going back to the other male dynamic of it, how many times do you have other men in your life though also saying, like, hey man, it's actually okay that you're like, you don't have the hottest like girlfriend in the world?
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And you know, like that's really cool that you're just in a long-term committed relationship with someone and someone's there for you.
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Or like, how did you work out that argument that you had and stuff like that, as opposed to hearing from men, like, oh, like, why are you even like arguing with someone?
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Like you should just like be dominant in that conversation or whatever.
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Like, that's my point is like, I just don't feel like a lot of men are even having realistic or any real conversations with each other about like the messiness of these relationships and stuff.
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And I think a lot of men don't go to other men to have those sorts of conversations.
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And so men are assuming that other men will judge them for the messiness or judge them for not having a handle on their relationships, or judge them for not having as hot, quote unquote, of a girlfriend or a partner as they would like.
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And so this almost feels like an easier way of just like being lost in this sort of fantasy because again, you get to shield yourself from the wounds and judgments that may not even be real.
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Like that might not be a real thing you you experience, but I think there's so many messages in the restrictive man-box sort of lane of things that says like you can't even like bring this to other men because they'll make fun of you for it.
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I I heard a phrase that I absolutely loved the other day, which was the vulnerability paradox.
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It's people think that being vulnerable is the worst possible thing.
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People think, you know, I'm gonna get hurt, I'm gonna get mocked, I'm gonna get ashamed, I'm gonna, you know, people are gonna reject me.
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But actually being vulnerable is so great, and it brings you closer to other people.
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Like being vulnerable in an in an appropriate way almost always is a positive thing with other people.
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So it's just one of those, like it's just a misperception of what people think is gonna happen when they're vulnerable.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Said you said something.
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So we we've we're we're right now we're talking about like men, like heterosexual men and hot AI girlfriends versus who they're dating in real life.
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But something that you touched on when we were talking about this earlier was this idea that AI is a stand-in for what men are looking for from other men, or that it could be a stand-in for what men are they that I mean, you are in conversation and community with men, men who cause harm all the time.
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So you have a really unique perspective on this.
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And I was wondering if you could share a little bit more about because I just I've never heard anybody say it that before.
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And I was just curious if you could sort of expand on that a little bit about how you see AI operating as that stand-in.
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I feel like in almost all of the work that I do with men, almost every man or boy, even that I've worked with have always ended up talking to me way more kind of about men in their lives than women in their lives, to be honest.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:36.000
And I think like a lot of men sort of talk about like, hey, it's really cool to be able to talk about these vulnerabilities or these failures or even the harm that I might have caused, or even the harm that I might have received from somebody with another man to work that out with you, because that feels way more healing because I'm just afraid of bringing this to other men in my life.
00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:40.400
I'm afraid that I can't connect to other men around these things because I'll be mocked.
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.920
I'll maybe, I'll be made fun of, I'll be ridiculed.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:56.640
And I've been sort of taught, and a lot of men have been taught, that other men are sort of competition or sizing them up or ready to judge them on a hierarchy of masculinity and manhood.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.759
And I think AI sort of comes in and allows.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:22.240
Allows space to provide men sort of community and understanding and acknowledgement and allows men to explore without that possibility, I guess, of being judged and ridiculed and ostracized, and the pain that comes along with like losing community because of your vulnerabilities.
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:34.960
And I think that AI to me is sort of like, you know, here to be helpful for like loneliness and all these other things when it's like, well, I just think men really struggle connecting to other men, period.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.680
And I've given this example, and Sloan has brought this up before.
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:41.519
I give this example of like how even men are conditioned to like communicate with each other.
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:48.480
It's often doing something else because it's hard to like have men just talk to each other one-on-one, face to face.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:57.759
So you always have to be drinking or playing video games or doing something else that distracts you from the actual vulnerability of what you're doing and how you're doing it.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:58.880
Even bars, right?
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:00.079
I give the example of bars.
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:06.720
Bars are set up to where you have to sit shoulder to shoulder as opposed to across from somebody and look them in the eye.
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:13.680
I give the example of a barber shops where a lot of men talk about some of the most intimate relationships they have are with barbers in their lives.
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:23.839
And one of the reasons for that is that barbers are often doing something, talking to them about life day to day, but they're also like usually behind them, you know, and and cutting their hair and stuff like that.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:33.440
There's always like some sort of like stand-in for actually having to just like face somebody one-on-one and really get into insecurities with people.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:38.720
And I think AI sort of helps replace men who are just struggling, period.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:43.519
We always talk about like, oh, men struggling with making relationships or established relationships with women.
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:51.359
But I don't think what we're talking about nearly enough is the struggles that men are having connecting and being in communities with other men in person.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:24:09.039
And I think that that's what AI is sort of providing is a space to now do this online and do this virtually without the in-person part of the messiness of what it means to connect around masculinity with each other, because men aren't really like being taught how to do that.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.559
And they're being taught to kind of be fearful of that with other men.
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:16.160
And I think that there's a real issue with that as I see it.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.000
I disagree with you.
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:37.599
Tell me, I'm gonna push back because I'm thinking about sort of the the typical social structure, like the life infrastructure of the sort of standard heterosexual, cisgendered man historically in in the last hundred years.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:57.359
And so if you think about all of the different major relationships and places for bonding and intimacy that that man would assume that they would have or that they would expect to have, it would be you know organized into home life.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:05.200
You have the woman in your life, and that's sort of the only like vessel for all of your intimacy and emotional needs.
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:14.240
And then you've got your workplace, which is where you have your like comrades, you know, your like your your sense of purpose comes from your workplace.
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:20.160
And then you've maybe got like clubs and hobbies and sports teams, and like that, you know, Said, you you had this phrase that I absolutely loved.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:23.519
It's like women bond face to face and men bond shoulder to shoulder.
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:32.079
So it's like you go and like you play your sport or you do your thing, and like those are your like guy friends, and you know, to what you to the point you just made about the sort of task-oriented friendship.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:38.640
And so I'm thinking about a 20s, 26, you know, 21-year-old guy.
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:52.079
And he's all of those different sites for bonding have collapsed because he maybe doesn't have a job, or it's not the sort of job that would give him a sense of purpose and like a social network of coworkers.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:53.119
So that's gone.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:26:03.200
And then you've got, you know, the the intimate relationship that he doesn't have, the like romantic and sexual relationship that he doesn't have, and that woman who's serving all of those emotional needs.
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:03.759
That's gone.
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:11.839
And then the there's, you know, to we all know this about America bowling alone, Robert Putnam, like there's no more clubs, there's no more sports teams.
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.640
There's no, you know, so where is that?
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:19.440
So suddenly where all these bonds should be, there's just like a desert.
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:20.160
There's just nothing.
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:22.880
So where does AI fit in?
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:25.039
This is my point of disagreement with you.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:34.880
I think AI, in terms of like the freedom that you were talking about before, I think things like Chat GPT, I think there's a lot of space for like intellectual exploration.
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:44.160
But in terms of the bonding, I actually think that most AI in the way that we're talking about is gonna fill the role of a woman.
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:55.759
And I mean, that there's like the sexual AI girlfriend stuff, but it's like where would a man expect to be able to just put all of their thoughts, all of their feelings and get love and get safety back?
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:56.720
A woman.
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:59.759
Then where is the missing male bonding?
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:15.680
I'm gonna go with like gaming spaces, social media, comment sections, like a, you know, a signal or telegram form, like all those places where men come together and share their thoughts and ideas and like have a sense of purpose and rally around a cause and do all these things together.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.839
But now they can be, they can hide behind their username.
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.680
They can hide behind their avatar in the game.
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:31.039
Like they can be the version of themselves that they want to be in that space and get all of that attention and connection with all those other men who also can share the idealized version of themselves.
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:31.759
Yes.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.880
Okay, so I totally, I totally get your point.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:36.240
And I kind of give this example.
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:39.039
I'm watching this show off campus right now.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:49.200
And so in that show, there is a scene where a man is sort of really struggling and he has a girlfriend, and his girlfriend's like, You should really talk to your guy friends about this.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:51.200
And he's like, I why would I do that?
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:52.960
I have you for that, right?
00:27:53.039 --> 00:28:00.240
And I know historically for generations, you know, men have really leaned on the women in their lives for this very thing, right?
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:09.680
And so your point is really well taken with AI sort of being that sort of replacement of the breakdown of the real romantic relationship dynamics and stuff.
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:16.960
I think my point is sort of I think men aren't allowed to sort of admit this to a certain extent.
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:26.799
I think it's much like easier for and understandable for a man to admit that he's longing for a romantic partner who's like maybe a woman, talking in the heterosexual sense, right?
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:29.680
Are are longing for women in their lives, right?
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.160
Wanting more sex, wanting relationships with women.
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:41.440
And I think that's actually much safer to admit than a man being willing to admit that he's really longing for much more intimacy and connection to other men in his life.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:57.119
And I would argue that when men are leaning on women in their lives for these things, it's because we've been sort of conditioned to say, to, to understand that not only are women sort of living these lives that are much more vulnerable and safer emotionally.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:02.880
So like they're uh safer people to go to with these sorts of things, but we also witness them doing it.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:04.640
And so we know that they can do it.
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:07.839
They do it with other women all the time and and stuff like that.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.640
But I think men are sort of longing.
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:24.319
When I say replacement for like some of the male friends, I think it's sort of a a way for men to not have to sort of admit that they are really longing actually for to do those things with men.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:33.599
I think the other example in that example I just gave about the TV show is that that man actually wants to connect to those men in his life, but he just doesn't feel like he can.
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:39.920
And so I think women are sort of there to sort of say, like, hey, this is a safer, easier way to do that sort of thing.
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:45.119
But I think that those men who are turning to AI, I think aren't doing those just to replace women.
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:51.599
I think it's it's because they cannot acknowledge that really they're like looking to connect to like more men in their lives.
00:29:51.759 --> 00:30:03.359
I think men actually want to connect more intimately with men in their lives day to day and don't feel like they know how to or have the opportunity to, or that even other men will want to do that with them.
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:16.880
And so it's not that like I don't agree with you that men are certainly leaning on women and have historically leaned on women, but I think they historically lean on women also because they've just been taught that men, uh other men will not do that with them.
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:21.279
I think we're also conditioned to be fearful of trying to do that with other men.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:30.960
There's uh whether it be homophobia, right, and that sort of dynamic, or that we also understand men to be sort of like sometimes more violent as well and things.
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:37.359
Like I give the example of like a lot of men, some of our first socializations with other men is with our fathers.
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:42.960
You know, this idea fearing your father, wait until your father comes home, you know, that sort of dynamic.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:50.559
And so I I think in the end, AI is sort of a replacement for a lot of these relationships that we're sort of talking about.
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:58.480
But I think it's sort of a glaring example of men longing to connect.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:07.200
And I think personally that men are actually wanting, longing to connect way more to other men in their lives than they're able to really put out there.
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:12.079
And so I think that that's where sort of AI, the messiness of AI sort of comes in.
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:13.039
Okay.
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:14.319
I'm open.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:15.599
You've opened my mind.
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:16.559
I'm just curious.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:25.839
Like, I wanna, I wanna put an AI to this concept because, you know, you're talking about like AI in general, but there's a million different versions of AI.
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:30.559
There's, you know, are we with the companion apps, the general purpose chatbots, the AI agents.
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:43.839
Ooh, oh, we haven't talked about AI agents, but like, because I'm thinking about who, like, if you're a man and and you are longing for that sort of like platonic comrade, teammate, like male best friend.
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.440
And I think you're absolutely right.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:52.160
I think that like male best friend is is a role that a lot of men are just really craving.
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:53.200
Like, who's my guy?
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:57.279
Who's my like in the trenches with me guy that I can really open up to?
00:31:58.160 --> 00:31:59.200
Who's AI?
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:06.640
Like, what what is the specific AI app or function or you know, what fills that?
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.200
Because I honestly, I kind of want it to be like Jarvis.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:16.720
Like, as I'm talking about it, AI agents, like I want it to be like your buddy that like you deploy across the internet and he makes money for you and he helps find things for you.
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:17.920
Like, maybe that's it.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:24.319
Maybe like a chat bot is your female stand-in because it's sycophantic, right?
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:26.240
And it just tells you how great you are all the time.
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:33.279
And isn't that the isn't that the dream for a lot of guys that there'll just be a woman who's there, like in their corner, just being like, yeah, babe, you're the best.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:35.519
Oh, that that ideal was fantastic.
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.359
But then, like, who's your buddy?
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.200
Your AI agent who like helps you like figure out the stock market.
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:42.799
Like, maybe that's it.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:54.319
Cause it's, I don't know, because it maybe it's like, and and I I'm penning all men with a brush, but it's, you know, to your point about like the the dream romantic relationship is not based on reciprocity.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.000
It's a hierarchical relationship.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:00.640
So chatbots fit below you in the hierarchy.
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:03.119
But who's your equal?
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:05.599
Your agent, your Jarvis.
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:17.759
I think I think the question for me is and when I'm thinking about what's how Said's framing this is like men maybe don't recognize they have this need to connect with other men.
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:18.799
Exactly.
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:25.839
So they're not using a going to use AI in that way because they don't recognize that need in themselves.
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:34.559
And so they're using it in a way that they would use like a a woman, a romantic partner in their life to unburden themselves, right?
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:40.160
And would they use AI differently, right, if they actually recognize this need in themselves?
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:41.599
And would they prompt it differently?
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:43.680
Would they use it in different ways?
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:44.480
Yeah.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:47.200
I think also you see, you kind of see it caught up.
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:50.079
I think that's the messiness of AI because it's playing the role of all of this, right?
00:33:50.240 --> 00:34:07.519
Because I agree with Sloan 100% that it's playing this sort of role of this like the collapse of like dating and women and leaning on the uh emotional labor of women to like always be there and support you in this way, but also sort of has this like sexual role for you as well, you know, at the same time.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:16.320
But then, like, can you separate that from like an AI companion that's just like a friend or something, you know, that you're a best friend of yours or an agent or something like that.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:23.280
But I think that's also like how like men are often conditioned that like sex and intimacy go hand in hand with each other as well.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:31.280
And I think that's where the the breakdown sort of happens, is like a lot of men are conditioned to not be able to separate those sorts of things.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:44.400
And so I think because sex and intimacy is so tied together for men, I think that makes it create sort of this barrier for men to really be intimate with other men in their lives.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.400
Because like of I think there's overarching homophobia there, right?
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:49.840
And how we're conditioned.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:35:02.159
And also, like, well, I even if I'm a straight man that's not necessarily homophobic, I might just be also thinking to myself, like, well, I don't, I thought I only do that with like people I also have sex with, I guess.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:12.159
You know, like I think that there's something to this connection of sex and intimacy that is made much messier with with the existence of AI too, for a lot of men.
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:12.800
Yeah.
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:17.519
I mean, when you think about intimacy, I think about vulnerability, right?
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:48.000
And if there's a a resistance to being like intimate with other men or vulnerable with other other men, like AI is an amazing option for you because like you can just completely, and maybe that's how, you know, maybe there's something to that with how people maybe men who are seeking connection with other men are using AI is when they are being intimate or vulnerable.
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:51.199
And I think it's more vulnerable because it's like, hey, it's judgment free.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:58.880
Oh, well, then I can say anything I want, which is means I'm being vulnerable, which we all know it's not because you need another human being in the on the other end of being vulnerable.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:02.480
And so unburdening yourself with AI is not vulnerability.
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:29.280
But and I wonder if there's a thread to pull on here, because thus far I think we've done a pretty good job of really walking a pretty interesting line through this intersection of masculinity, like full stop, but then also how restrictive masculinity, healthy masculinity can operate, can thrive in a world sort of dominated by AI.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:46.960
And I want to talk a little bit, and we don't have to do it now, we could do it later, but I do I am curious from you both, like what we're clearly not in a good like we're not in a great natural resting point for healthy masculinity.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:56.079
We're not at a great natural resting point for men connecting with other men, men having the tools to connect with other men, men being intimate or vulnerable with other men in their lives.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:08.239
Is and I just wonder, is I think if some if we were asked somebody listening to this, is the takeaway that AI is exacerbating that, or does AI offer a path forward?
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:14.320
And I just would love to talk about, you know, where is AI showing up?
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:19.920
Can AI show up in a positive way, in a connective way when we're talking about these issues?
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:30.960
Because I think I have a pretty good handle on the challenges and why somebody might turn to it in a way that is sort of shortcutting connecting with other men in their lives, right?
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:32.800
But Said, you're doing this work.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.760
Sloane, you're on college campuses and in communities giving talks on AI and healthy masculinity.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:48.960
Like, do we see paths forward, positive use cases, ways that the the work can intersect with AI in an additive way?
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:51.360
I'm I'm really curious what you both think about that.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:38:06.960
So in a lot of these episodes, when we talk about a really beneficial use of AI or a very healthy use of AI, it's turning AI into a tool to help you do something in the world with other people.
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:14.079
You know, we have these sort of core questions, like North Star questions, about how how what is the beneficial use of AI here?
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:20.960
And it's questions like does it help you understand yourself more deeply, or does it alienate you from yourself?
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:25.599
Or does it bring you closer to other people, or does it push you away from other people?
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:52.159
So everything that we've talked about so far, like all of these places where AI is stepping into the world of a sort of cishet man's life, and where every single thing we've been talking about is replacement, is AI allowing somebody to retreat into a virtual life, and then AI fills a role for them that traditionally would be filled or like ideally would be filled by another person or people.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:59.840
I just don't think there's a healthy version of substituting AI in for humanity full stop.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:12.639
Um, because you know, what like regardless of the app that you're using, like uh is it a slightly more pro-social app, or is it is it a slightly more like antisocial app?
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:23.360
Is it something like pretty misogynistic, like candy AI for your girlfriend versus replica that's a much more like balanced, less like overtly sexual, porny thing?
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:27.599
Like it's still supplanting the human connection.
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:51.840
And to everything that Saeed's talking about, about like finding ways out of this restrictive masculinity, finding ways to bond with other people, challenge and accountability and vulnerability are the only things that are gonna help somebody down that path towards a more like healthy version of masculinity and a and a freer, more complete, healthier identity for themselves.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:40:00.800
I just don't think AI is capable of providing that challenge and accountability and that space for actual genuine vulnerability.
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:02.480
Like you can't be vulnerable with AI.
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:07.599
Just def like by definition, you cannot be vulnerable with AI, and AI can't hold you accountable.
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:14.480
So, how do you grow if AI is just filling every single unmet need in your life in that way?
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:29.679
Well, I mean, this is why like I'm like, well, what it would be like to have like clinicians, violence prevention experts, de-radicalization workers in in in Silicon Valley with the engineers optimizing the engagement, right?
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:38.400
I mean, the truth is that like can we build technology that makes men more capable of love, connection, accountability?
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:42.559
I I maybe, probably, but who's putting their mind to that?
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:48.239
Like, I mean, that's that's the thing, is that I, you know, if we that's the other thing.
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:50.480
This technology is designed to be profitable.
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:58.000
And I think to keep, you know, to, you know, to be profitable, you have to have men using the technology.
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:07.599
And to have men using this technology, it has to fill these voids, you know, and not really put itself out of business by like helping men improve human relationships.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:14.079
Like, that's not what it probably wants, because then it would be off the technology, like in communities without it, you know.
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:16.320
So I I don't I don't really know.
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:20.320
I think that there's ways, I think in so many ways, and Sloan will really appreciate this.
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:25.840
I mean, is that maybe there's just ways to make AI less harmful, harm reduction.
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:32.079
You know, maybe it's like harm reduction at this point, as opposed to like overt prevention of some kind, right?
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:35.360
I mean, you know, can we tweak something?
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.840
You know, can we have different people in the room in the space?
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:44.320
You know, Adam's had fun ideas of like creating AI versions of us to kind of like pop up and be like, hey.
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:49.360
Listen, believe me, AI Saeed has been on my mind for about the last 20 minutes.
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:51.360
I'm just full disclosure.
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:51.840
Yeah.
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:53.280
Dude, I have an idea.
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:57.920
Why don't we use like an AI matchmaker, but for your man best friend?
00:41:58.159 --> 00:41:58.480
Yes.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:41:59.440
Things like that.
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.679
Like honest your human man best friend.
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:13.840
Yeah, I think I think that's a big thing too, because one of the things we didn't touch on so much here already is that also remembering that AI sort of like there's these studies coming out now that people are trusting AI a lot more, right?
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:16.000
People think AI is smarter than us.
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:28.559
And I think that that is sort of an interesting issue to think about, where like if if we think AI is inherently smarter than us and we trust it because of that, but it's just like reflecting back how we sort of feel.
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:46.320
I think in a way, it's sort of like giving us this situation where we're sort of feeling validated that something that we perceive to be much more like smarter than us is like agreeing with us or something and supports us in a way, right?
00:42:46.480 --> 00:43:04.960
And I think that can be directly, there's a direct line from that to like even Manosphere stuff, where we kind of like a lot of these guys who are influencing men are deemed very trustworthy because they sort of like care about me and we perceive them to be smarter than me, but they like are giving me a frame of reference.
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:07.360
They're giving me something to believe in, you know?
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:13.360
And I do think that, you know, we're not, but but none of that is being challenged, right?
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.920
That Manosphere stuff is never really challenged.
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:20.320
They never have people on there that's capable to really challenge the ideology.
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:26.400
And similarly with AI, who's ever in the space with you to really challenge the dynamic in the room and in the space?
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:34.719
You need people that you can really trust humanly to help you grow and like to challenge some of these dynamics at play.
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:37.199
Or else it's really easy to just be swallowed by this.
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:46.639
And so I think personally, uh, the big masculinity conversation around AI needs to come back to like why like human masculinity.
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:54.960
It's sort of like, well, what does that mean for human relationships, men in relationships with other men, men in relationships with their communities?
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:59.519
And I think AI sort of is is designed now to be kind of taking away from that.
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:03.920
And I'm hopeful that in the future, if this is going to exist, there's ways to interrupt that.
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:12.800
But I'm not holding my breath for that unless folks like us or other people doing this sort of work are really out there sort of pushing that.
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:15.360
But I don't know what that sort of looks like long term.
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:17.840
I've already been beta testing AI Said.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.159
I just didn't tell you about it, and it's going great.
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:22.960
No, I I don't disagree with you.
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:36.159
I think you know, one thing I was like an elegant solution for me is just, you know, mail code the chatbot you're talking to, voice whatever text.
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:51.840
And if you're gonna be unburdening yourself or looking to be quote unquote vulnerable with the chatbot, just have it mail coded and that will help them experience what it's like to be vulnerable or share something personal with another man.
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:53.760
Just make a make a small tweak there.
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.800
Well, I think this is a good point to wrap up.
00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:00.559
I uh I I see the challenges ahead, but I'm hopeful for the future.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:05.760
I think that that this technology is powerful and we can harness it for in ways.
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:07.760
But first we have to be centering these conversations.
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:09.679
And I don't think many people are having these conversations.
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:13.840
So I really appreciate you both bringing your A game to this conversation.
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:18.559
And I'm already thinking about all the ways I'm gonna pull from this conversation, other talks.
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.320
So this was Rad.
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:21.920
You're both amazing, as usual.
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:23.199
Thank you all for joining us.
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:31.440
If you have any, you know, questions, feedback, thoughts, criticisms about this episode or the work that we're doing here, feel free to reach out.
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:38.079
And if you have thoughts for a mailbag or questions, we would love to hear from you because we're dying to do a mailbag episode.
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:40.559
And maybe we've already done one by the time this airs.
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:42.159
But thank you for being here.