Imprecatory Prayers

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[SPEAKER_04]: What do you got for me?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do
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[SPEAKER_04]: As long as I'm not for me, we could have had the benediction right there, that was so good.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's going on, everyone?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And welcome to the reformatory podcast for the local church.
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[SPEAKER_02]: By the local church, we are your local church.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My name is Josh, and I'm here as always with the man that needs no introduction.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But we'll introduce them anyway, the captain, Jack.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Barry Jack, it is good to be with you this morning.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Shot an 89 on the golf course the other day, Jack, for me is pretty pretty big deal for me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Second best score in my life.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Josh, we both had we both had golf on our minds yesterday.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Did was I watched Shia LeBuff's masterpiece called the greatest game ever.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He's yesterday on Disney with my brother and sister-in-law.
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[SPEAKER_03]: All right, okay, I will say great movie to be quite honest.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Pretty good, pretty good golf movie.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so anyway, well like golf on our minds yesterday.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's, what's the one with, so speaking of golf movies, what's the one with Jim Kaveezol?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm gonna look it up right now because Alistair Bayg isn't it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Bobby Jones stroke of genius what did the get that the the movie Bobby Jones stroke of genius came out in 2004 It's a movie It's a golf movie and Jim Kaveezle is the main actor, but Alister big
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[SPEAKER_02]: has a bit part in it as a golf trainer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And he's a whiskey drinky.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, swearing, golf trowel.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What?
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[SPEAKER_01]: He steps off the nerve.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not, I'm not trolling.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not trolling.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He steps off the bus.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm looking, I remember the first time I'm like,
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's that's Alistair big and yeah, he's he's he's he's in that film don't know how he got in I think it was something like I think Alistair big son had like
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[SPEAKER_02]: like a stint where he was trying to do like the Hollywood thing if I remember correctly and I don't know how, okay, I don't know how Alistar Begot hooked up with this with this move, but Alistar Beg is in the most, and I mean Bobby Jones-Stirk of Gene is actually, there's actually a pretty, like the film's pretty solid.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Jim Koviesel is great in it, but you watch it, watch it for the Alistar Beg scene.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He's in a couple scenes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's, it's, it's pretty awesome.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's, it's, it's pretty great.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So little, little, little known golf trivia there for you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But, um, uh, yeah, no good times good times all around going to try to get out golfing tonight if possible.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the one cool evening that we have this week and Jack, I got to tell you this coming Friday.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing something that I've never done before.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I am in a golf tournament.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have been asked to be the fourth man in a baseball scramble at a golf tournament.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a charity tournament for cops and firefighters.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the businesses that we do stuff with asked if I would join.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I'll be chopping it up on the golf course Friday.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So,
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[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see what happens.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully that energy that I had last Saturday can can stay with me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully it wasn't a one and done.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The last time I was in a baseball scramble was like after I came back from Afghanistan, our army unit had like a golf tournament and it was like me and like three other guys from my troop or company.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We were going against the whole squadron and it's fun.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's a fun time.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you that much.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So you get that out of it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, absolutely, man.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: All right, we're going to, um, we got, we got stuff talked about today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah, it's going to be interesting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of be interesting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But before we get into any of that nonsense, slaves in general, and you do know what time it is at his time for everyone's favorite segment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget to eat your instant grams.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And those are the tiny, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is, don't forget to eat your Instagrams and remember kids, it's not here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: See if you believe it hard enough.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That is how it works these days.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Jack got some crazy clips, crazy clips to cover today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just gonna hop right in, hop right in right here, boy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let us facilitate extravagant worship.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know, the spend too much money on production.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was Judas that complained about things that were poured on Jesus' feet.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, no, we will, there is no money that is wasted when it is facilitating extravagant worship.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, pardon me, we're sticking with buildings, we're sticking with large production budgets because it's poured out on the feet of Jesus.
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[SPEAKER_00]: To take your fake outrage and go be Judas somewhere else.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
05:55.973 --> 05:56.453
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
05:56.473 --> 05:56.913
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that say?
05:56.933 --> 05:57.334
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that say?
05:57.354 --> 05:57.934
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that say?
05:58.074 --> 05:58.935
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that say?
05:59.175 --> 05:59.735
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that say?
05:59.755 --> 06:00.135
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
06:05.058 --> 06:05.578
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
06:07.539 --> 06:08.239
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that say?
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[SPEAKER_02]: That is me being the equivalent of the man that sold our saviour for 30 pieces of silver.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I am Judas at that point.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That is a wild take.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry, but everything by, um, I think their last name is Fonocio.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The Fanocio brothers, I'm sorry.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I can't get behind any of what they do.
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[SPEAKER_03]: They just, their takes are really scrambled.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And just like this, they're really inconsistent.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like one clip I'll see of them is like that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And the other clip is just ridiculous.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like this, like get out of here, you can get out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Judas, Judas was the comparison.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, Jack, I, this next one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh, I don't even know if I'm allowed to give any commentary to this next one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just gonna play it, gosh, and we're gonna enjoy it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Here we go.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken, love and chicken
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[SPEAKER_02]: all right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm speechless.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm speechless.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm speechless.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I can.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Am I allowed to commentate on that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Dude, that is one absolutely wild.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Two.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, why is it
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[SPEAKER_02]: do it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He made it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He made it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He made it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it, he made it,
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[SPEAKER_02]: with fast food theme songs in church.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we have a send it to another plane.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We've ascended, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about a send it, but yeah, we need a little tags on the end of one of our hymns.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm loving it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, no.
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[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we're going to, we're going
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[SPEAKER_02]: uh... jack um... you you asked uh... about doing this topic i was hesitant share because sure for multiple reasons uh... but uh... we're gonna we're gonna at least we're gonna least just have a casual conversation about it uh... we're talking about imprecatory prayers uh... personal usage use within the church
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because apparently, that's kind of going around the reforms that I start right now is, how do we utilize them?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Should we utilize them as their context to the utilization of in-precatory prayers?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have my personal convictions.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have, I think, what I would be comfortable with, especially utilizing them in the context of the local church on the Lord's Day.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I am in no means a, in authority on this, it's not something that I, I'll be the first to admit, I have not done a lot of research or look into in predatory prayers, the theology behind at the usage of them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I know they're there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I know why they're there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think they can and should be used in contexts, but also I think it can be unhelpful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: in others.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a conversation between a couple churchmen, what our relationships are with imprecatory prayers, specifically those that I think, I think, I think classically they go to the Psalms, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Where you, you have some, some very violent prayers given by David, break the teeth of my
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[SPEAKER_02]: and response to some of the very difficult situations that he isn't and you see him pleading to the Lord to end suffering, to break his enemies, to bring his persecution to an end to let
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'll throw it over to you first, Jack, just because like I said, I've got some thoughts on it, but why was this a topic you wanted to cover today, my man?
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think one part of it is this.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's just going around the bend.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this is kind of what we talk about is somewhat when things come up in the reformed world, we want to talk about what this might look like in your local church.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because not every local church is going to do the exact same thing when it comes to this and we're also coming at it from a church historical perspective of reform baptists and particular baptists across church history as well too and really like I don't know if it's.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I guess the thing that I go back to in this whole situation with imprecatory prayers, it was brought up by a couple people that straight out came out the gate on X saying, we're doing imprecatory prayers.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And there was a lot of people in the reformed world that kind of went back on it and then there was back and forth saying, you're not stick, no, you're really
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think really just honestly like taking a step back on this and just looking at the whole picture and just leaving it because there's a time, there's a time for everything.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think that Ecclesiastes makes that specific.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There is a time for everything.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes there is a time to pray earnestly against evil.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes there is a time to pray earnestly for unity and peace and bonds between countrymen and everything along those lines.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I think sometimes when we do this niche thing to where somebody wants to bring it up in their church service,
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[SPEAKER_03]: uh... in their lords day service i think you always have to go back to what is scripture say about this and then also what do we know about it from tradition and church history and so really when i look at it when i look at imprecatory prayers yeah there's there's there's a if you are to pray and imprecatory prayer in your church service there is no slot
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[SPEAKER_03]: for an imprecatory prayer to happen.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe Josh and I talked about this beforehand in the pastoral prayer that might happen in certain other times when you're praying as a congregation, about certain evils that are happening.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I would say that our imprecatory prayers, can you pray them?
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[SPEAKER_03]: I would say both, no in yes at the same time, and it would really depend upon the words that you're using and the posture that you're using these imprecatory prayers in.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's why I really brought it up.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Is it just for us to kind of like wait into these waters a little bit like we always do and then using scripture as our backdrop but also balancing it out between There's a time for everything and sometimes there's a time to and we we also know this
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[SPEAKER_03]: that we live in a day and age to where if something is said in the scriptures, people will take that and elaborate on that a little bit more than the text allows.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's kind of where my thinking was at when I started to think about this topic for today and why we wanted to wait into it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, and I think I think it is a good thing to talk about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think when I when I like my relationship, I guess you could say with in Precantory prayers is something that I always understood in Precantory because when you So I'm some starting like three sentences as once let me back up.
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[SPEAKER_02]: When I hear individuals making a case for the usage of imprecatory prayers, both in personal and in ecclesiastical life, the vast majority of the time, it is predicated upon what we see in the Psalms, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: and we've already talked about, you know, those, those types of Psalms will, you know, why they're there and things that sort.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think, I don't think that that automatically just stops the argument because, I mean, the Psalms, obviously, just like all of scripture is breath out by God.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I think we also need to understand context of the Psalms.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we also
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[SPEAKER_02]: what is the purpose of poetry?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What is it describing?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Why is it the language being utilized in that way?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Scott, I never know how to say his last name.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Anoli, is that, is that how you say it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Scott, Scott, I'm not sure.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't, I don't know, I'll just say the last name.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But he actually wrote an article on in Precitori saw, Precitori prayers that I thought was actually pretty balanced.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One of the quotes he says in here is he says, the in Precitori prayers in the Psalms are not expressions of unbridled rage and vengeance, made in a moment of passion.
17:23.852 --> 17:30.581
[SPEAKER_02]: They are carefully and crafted expressions of trust in what God had already promised He would do.
17:31.061 --> 17:34.726
[SPEAKER_02]: And by singing these expressions, they form a heart of trust.
17:35.286 --> 17:37.589
[SPEAKER_02]: And He goes on to say, so in Psalm 1 3 7,
17:40.473 --> 17:48.941
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the poet recreates for us artistically, the historical events such that we can experience it for ourselves.
17:49.001 --> 17:51.683
[SPEAKER_02]: So this leads us to the question everyone wants to ask.
17:52.324 --> 17:57.369
[SPEAKER_02]: Should we pray and pray in prayer, in prayer questions?
17:59.150 --> 18:06.357
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the ones at the end of Psalm 137, does God really want us to pray for the children of our enemies to be dashed upon the rocks?
18:06.936 --> 18:11.838
[SPEAKER_02]: we read the final three verses of this song and we are disgusted, we pull back and horror, right?
18:12.478 --> 18:15.019
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is exactly the point is what he goes on to say.
18:15.059 --> 18:17.741
[SPEAKER_02]: This is exactly what God wants us to feel.
18:18.141 --> 18:22.583
[SPEAKER_02]: We should feel horror and disgust at the notion of rebellion against God.
18:23.283 --> 18:23.423
[SPEAKER_02]: The
18:26.246 --> 18:37.969
[SPEAKER_02]: adulteration of his worship and destruction of his people, the author uses this language to artistically capture the emotions of the experience of injustice violence in exile.
18:38.409 --> 18:51.713
[SPEAKER_02]: In other words, the songs of lament and even in Precatory Psalms remind us that all of Yahweh's enemies have not yet been destroyed, and we must still battle sin even within ourselves.
18:52.666 --> 18:59.527
[SPEAKER_02]: as we see throughout the Psalms, this reminders what prevents our trust from being baseless and our praise from being cheap and trivial.
19:00.228 --> 19:04.868
[SPEAKER_02]: So I, I like that kind of understanding of in predatory Psalms.
19:04.908 --> 19:16.091
[SPEAKER_02]: And the ways that I've always understood, and I'm open to be wrong, and I would love to hear from, you know, men who have been in ministry much longer than me, who have maybe dealt with this issue on a more personal level,
19:19.913 --> 19:34.760
[SPEAKER_02]: we we hold things in balance right because even the disciples when they asked Christ how should we pray right which is the ultimate uh not not the only way that we should pray but Christ gives us the template of of prayer.
19:35.180 --> 19:39.963
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't see that prayer being in Precitoria nature.
19:39.983 --> 19:48.047
[SPEAKER_02]: The closest that you could get to and I have heard some people argue this is in in in the phrasing uh that kingdom come your will be done
19:49.053 --> 19:58.697
[SPEAKER_02]: If we understand the implications of what that means, there is an imprecatory nature of that, I understand what they mean, but it is not explicit, it is implicit, right?
19:58.757 --> 20:06.121
[SPEAKER_02]: It's inferred, it's not, it's not something that is explicitly imprecatory, right?
20:07.481 --> 20:10.563
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have to hold all things in balance, I think.
20:10.803 --> 20:15.425
[SPEAKER_02]: And what often happens with these types of arguments is you have a lot of guys who,
20:18.846 --> 20:29.311
[SPEAKER_02]: anger, which it always, it always interests me to see again, because I think maybe it's just the counselor and me, but you connect the dots, you notice patterns, right?
20:30.812 --> 20:50.291
[SPEAKER_02]: the vast majority of individuals that I see, either on social media or on podcast or whatever, advocating for the strong uses usage of in predatory prayers, are also very embalanced in terms of how they express themselves, particularly their anger or frustration over things, right?
20:50.591 --> 20:51.412
[SPEAKER_02]: Those dots connect.
20:52.053 --> 20:52.233
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
20:52.693 --> 20:58.616
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have a concern with someone who wants to play such a large emphasis on imprecatory prayers.
20:59.176 --> 21:07.600
[SPEAKER_02]: When I do think we can't have end emphasis, but these often, the ones that advocate for the usage of it.
21:09.445 --> 21:31.655
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say have an over emphasis on the cursing on the on the asking the Lord to to break the teeth right so this is this is this is how I have you to I'll throw it over to you Jack and you can tell me if you think I'm off you can tell me if you think it's balanced like I said I'm I'm open to it and this is without doing an extensive amount of study on a predatory prayers.
21:33.129 --> 21:37.033
[SPEAKER_02]: I have used imprecatory language in my pastoral prayers before.
21:37.473 --> 21:43.459
[SPEAKER_02]: I've prayed for the Lord to put an end to the injustice of abortion, right?
21:44.020 --> 21:45.561
[SPEAKER_02]: I pray that the Lord would...
21:46.606 --> 21:51.348
[SPEAKER_02]: uh, you know, put an end to the injustice that we see in the world, right?
21:51.388 --> 21:53.229
[SPEAKER_02]: The enslavery that we see in the world.
21:53.529 --> 21:59.132
[SPEAKER_02]: I have asked the Lord to put to death sin in the world because I believe he will.
21:59.492 --> 22:02.474
[SPEAKER_02]: And I believe that is something he promises to do, right?
22:02.514 --> 22:05.915
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also asked the Lord to put to death sin in our own hearts, right?
22:05.955 --> 22:10.097
[SPEAKER_02]: So there is an aspect of imprecatory prayer that is directed inward as well.
22:12.399 --> 22:17.042
[SPEAKER_02]: I see there being a balance between because you always have the two sides, right?
22:17.162 --> 22:27.408
[SPEAKER_02]: You one side, you know, the Lord, everyone that is against the Lord, like Lord, please crush them, grind them into dust, damn them, right?
22:28.249 --> 22:30.430
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you have the other side in response to that.
22:30.490 --> 22:33.893
[SPEAKER_02]: I think as a pendulum swing is like, well, no, we're called to love our enemies.
22:33.953 --> 22:34.813
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't act, you know.
22:36.114 --> 22:37.094
[SPEAKER_02]: I think both are true.
22:37.854 --> 22:47.097
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we can on one side pray that the Lord would end in justice that he would cause the sinful to see the error of their ways and repent.
22:48.397 --> 22:57.279
[SPEAKER_02]: Without going so far in and I think applying the verses incorrectly do not do I not hate those that hate you, O Lord.
22:57.979 --> 22:59.000
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we're called by Christ
23:01.843 --> 23:07.524
[SPEAKER_02]: But we also love our enemies in a way of calling them to repent and to believe the gospel, right?
23:07.884 --> 23:29.408
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we can pray in Precuitory occurs very effectively that God would indeed end in justice and end the sin that is plaguing our world, the sin that is in us while at the same time, being careful not to use that language or that excuse to then vent and to, to, to, to, to,
23:31.508 --> 23:37.851
[SPEAKER_02]: a biblical understanding of asking the Lord to put evil to rest.
23:38.972 --> 23:48.637
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it goes, it steps over that line and, well, now you're just, now you just want the Lord to destroy everyone that you disagree with, which sadly,
23:49.925 --> 23:58.453
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we see a lot of that emotion with a lot of guys that advocate for in Precategory prayers is it's very emotion based.
23:59.014 --> 24:06.181
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of desire for justice, but just an observation on my on my side and I'll throw it over to you.
24:07.254 --> 24:07.414
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:08.415 --> 24:11.457
[SPEAKER_02]: I see all of that in the in predatory nature.
24:11.897 --> 24:12.738
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all outward.
24:13.459 --> 24:14.679
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all the world.
24:15.320 --> 24:17.762
[SPEAKER_02]: I see none of it directed inward at your own sin.
24:18.702 --> 24:20.824
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I think we need to be balanced in that.
24:21.004 --> 24:23.506
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's just those are some thoughts I've had on it.
24:24.280 --> 24:26.901
[SPEAKER_03]: No, that's, that's a good balance that you're striking Josh.
24:26.961 --> 24:29.161
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I would, I would say this.
24:29.541 --> 24:36.943
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say what I've seen on social media when people are saying or these are the words that I use for imprecatory prayers.
24:37.083 --> 24:41.043
[SPEAKER_03]: And then it's immediately followed up by an abortionist drop dead the next day.
24:41.083 --> 24:42.084
[SPEAKER_03]: So praise God for that.
24:42.104 --> 24:51.005
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, okay, um, so it's like, listen, I don't rejoice.
24:52.346 --> 24:53.566
[SPEAKER_03]: I, I guess you can look at
24:55.323 --> 25:07.269
[SPEAKER_03]: the relationship that David had with Saul, and David wanting so much for Saul to be redeemed, even though Saul was coming in and David so much in his life.
25:08.189 --> 25:08.609
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
25:08.769 --> 25:19.735
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess I have that posture in my life as well, too, where, yes, there may be people who, in by nature right now are rebelling against God.
25:21.075 --> 25:27.418
[SPEAKER_03]: By not trusting in Christ and by also not obeying His Word and doing what His Word says, right?
25:28.059 --> 25:36.383
[SPEAKER_03]: But that doesn't give a wedge for me to stick my foot in to say, okay, smite them now, God.
25:36.623 --> 25:38.404
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, do your worst.
25:39.464 --> 25:40.905
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that is really...
25:42.378 --> 25:43.279
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a difference.
25:43.700 --> 25:48.186
[SPEAKER_03]: There is a balance, like we talked about, and where you have to strike a balance in what's happening.
25:50.489 --> 25:54.354
[SPEAKER_03]: In both, I guess in my own life, I've seen this a little bit more intently.
25:55.856 --> 25:59.020
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess this is more of a personal anecdote, but
25:59.921 --> 26:07.427
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, when I was in Afghanistan, one of my team leaders was killed by the Taliban in an attack on my unit.
26:08.168 --> 26:09.289
[SPEAKER_03]: I was there when it happened.
26:09.489 --> 26:10.210
[SPEAKER_03]: It was not fun.
26:11.290 --> 26:15.314
[SPEAKER_03]: Was I mad at the Taliban and wanted revenge for the evil that they've done?
26:15.654 --> 26:15.914
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: did I also want them to repent of that evil and lay down their weapons and surrender not only to the fact that they were committing atrocities but also rebelling against God.
26:29.365 --> 26:29.606
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
26:30.907 --> 26:36.331
[SPEAKER_03]: So it can be both yes and no's when you're talking about situations like that as well too.
26:38.313 --> 26:45.577
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the biggest thing is like, what is the end goal in that imprecatory prayer in your local church?
26:46.777 --> 26:50.759
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it to see the kingdom of God work more intently in your community?
26:52.280 --> 26:54.601
[SPEAKER_03]: So for example, like, is there, so
26:55.782 --> 26:57.223
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll give you an example from Tacoma.
26:57.743 --> 26:58.564
[SPEAKER_03]: There are gangs.
26:59.845 --> 27:05.968
[SPEAKER_03]: There are gangs and killings that happen pretty much almost on the weekend week out here in Tacoma, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Do I want to see that evil end?
27:08.970 --> 27:09.811
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I do.
27:10.371 --> 27:12.392
[SPEAKER_03]: Do I want justice to happen for that?
27:12.532 --> 27:13.333
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I do.
27:14.263 --> 27:16.825
[SPEAKER_03]: would you call that necessarily imprecatory?
27:17.685 --> 27:18.746
[SPEAKER_03]: Or would you call that biblable?
27:19.907 --> 27:22.348
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's the more interesting.
27:22.468 --> 27:23.329
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:23.369 --> 27:26.051
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, I think it can be both.
27:26.751 --> 27:35.777
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, I think they're, you know, like asking the Lord to end the evil in our world and the evil in our hearts is imprecatory.
27:36.177 --> 27:37.338
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's nothing wrong with that.
27:38.040 --> 27:38.380
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
27:38.761 --> 27:58.478
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a good and right and biblical thing to do, but I think the line the lot of these guys cross because they're immature and they don't know how to hold multiple things as true is they will go beyond that and and and actually take joy and I think vitriol
27:59.574 --> 28:12.721
[SPEAKER_02]: in the Lord sending, sending souls to judgment, and I don't, yeah, and their own will almost be like making, like making light of that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
28:14.473 --> 28:18.535
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the thing that that causes me pause because I think we're losing the point.
28:19.116 --> 28:19.296
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
28:19.376 --> 28:25.660
[SPEAKER_02]: We want the Lord to bring justice to evil that the evil would see the error of their ways and repent.
28:26.661 --> 28:26.881
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
28:26.901 --> 28:29.362
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we know hell is real.
28:29.403 --> 28:30.363
[SPEAKER_02]: We know hell is hot.
28:30.403 --> 28:31.824
[SPEAKER_02]: And we know that people go there.
28:32.264 --> 28:33.665
[SPEAKER_02]: But that should not be our desire.
28:34.386 --> 28:35.807
[SPEAKER_02]: We shouldn't have a desire.
28:35.847 --> 28:37.228
[SPEAKER_02]: We should have a desire that God's
28:42.280 --> 28:47.124
[SPEAKER_02]: that anyone should die without having the mediation of Jesus Christ.
28:48.286 --> 29:07.203
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where I think a lot of these guys that call and the way they go about engaging in predatory prayers to me is unbalanced because it goes beyond simply asking the Lord to bring justice to defend the weak, to uphold his statutes and to bring forth his promises.
29:08.563 --> 29:17.512
[SPEAKER_02]: it goes beyond that and to almost this, this eagerness to see suffering amongst the evil.
29:17.833 --> 29:21.697
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and look, yeah, they don't need that from you.
29:22.057 --> 29:23.919
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to suffer enough, right?
29:25.060 --> 29:28.364
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Evan in our in our in our in Precatory prayers, there should be
29:29.823 --> 29:46.623
[SPEAKER_02]: like that should lead us to have a fervent seat to see the ones that are engaging in that evil, the ones that are propagating that evil, we should we should want to see them saved so that that evil is no longer done because they have come to an understanding of the gospel.
29:46.644 --> 29:49.026
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's at least in my experience.
29:49.924 --> 29:51.325
[SPEAKER_02]: I never hear that side of it.
29:52.025 --> 30:00.228
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always hearing about how they want the Lord to, again, it's the language, I'm crush the teeth of my enemies, crush them, Lord, bring them low.
30:00.909 --> 30:05.971
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's, yeah, that's what's going to happen if they die without Christ.
30:07.531 --> 30:08.992
[SPEAKER_02]: But you shouldn't want that.
30:11.133 --> 30:15.335
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the concern that I have with a lot of these guys is it almost seems like,
30:16.364 --> 30:21.267
[SPEAKER_02]: they take pleasure in souls dying without Christ.
30:21.487 --> 30:24.689
[SPEAKER_02]: At least outwardly, I'm not judging their heart motives.
30:25.029 --> 30:30.492
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying from what I hear and what I see, I see so much more hatred for the lost than love.
30:31.752 --> 30:33.693
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is a concern to me.
30:35.194 --> 30:45.140
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I just saw it recently this past week where the Department of War actually put out some posters like recruiting posters that said send me
30:46.195 --> 31:13.169
[SPEAKER_03]: in this very prophetic Isaiah kind of language and I'm like oh that's not what it means guys that's not what it means so I think there's this blurring there's a blurring that's happening right now that's conflating I mean this is the constant theme that we're seeing within last I would say 10 years is the blurring of law and gospel and now it's the blurring of I think
31:14.690 --> 31:25.954
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a distinction between physical enemies and spiritual, and if you fall, if you say something that's a little bit sounding more spiritual, you're called anostic.
31:26.955 --> 31:32.797
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're leaning one way, if you're sounding a little bit more human-focused, you're called like a crusader.
31:33.817 --> 31:43.264
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, we just need to strike a balance here, like, can we say without a doubt that certain regimes across the world are doing evil?
31:43.364 --> 31:44.724
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, we can say that without a doubt.
31:45.305 --> 31:47.466
[SPEAKER_03]: Can we pray that justice would happen?
31:47.867 --> 31:48.947
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, we could.
31:49.668 --> 31:50.768
[SPEAKER_03]: Should I rejoice?
31:51.089 --> 31:55.492
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this goes back to even when I was in the military, when Osom bin Laden was killed.
31:56.893 --> 32:00.395
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, a lot of people were out in the streets rejoicing for that.
32:01.455 --> 32:02.776
[SPEAKER_03]: I really didn't have that posture.
32:03.116 --> 32:06.418
[SPEAKER_03]: I really had more of like a, that's an ending to the chapter.
32:07.479 --> 32:12.202
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a new chapter beginning where there's consequences to that sometimes.
32:12.262 --> 32:14.723
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's tertiary things that happen.
32:14.843 --> 32:19.666
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, now I'm not saying we should a Christian should be pacifist straight up.
32:19.786 --> 32:20.827
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying that at all.
32:21.387 --> 32:25.470
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I do think that there is, like I said, in Ecclesiastes, there is a time for everything.
32:26.010 --> 32:27.531
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a time for you to turn the cheek.
32:27.891 --> 32:30.153
[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes there's a time for you to throw a punch.
32:31.253 --> 32:40.875
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so here me when I say that because I know some people will take me out of context and say Jack's just a pacifist and he just wants people to lie down in the street and take it.
32:41.015 --> 32:41.695
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't.
32:42.415 --> 32:52.697
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we need to be wise with what we're saying because yet again, I think it is so important for us that our witness is being heard correctly.
32:53.477 --> 32:58.578
[SPEAKER_03]: When you conflate the words of scripture into something else, that should make you tremble.
32:59.748 --> 33:21.828
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the reformers were so picky about what they said in the pulpit because they trembled at the idea that they could misconstru what God said and they were so focused on making sure that they were saying the right things, what scripture said about the certain things that God was saying about.
33:22.628 --> 33:25.031
[SPEAKER_03]: So that should make us tremble a little bit.
33:25.891 --> 33:29.634
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's a good thing to feel a healthy fear of God.
33:30.014 --> 33:39.762
[SPEAKER_03]: I think for us because we should be the ones ensuring that our witness is in step with the step of Scripture and within step with our Lord Jesus Christ.
33:41.083 --> 33:51.811
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's the thing that I'm worried about the most is that when we see an opening in Scripture sometimes we go for the we go for the head and we don't step back and go,
33:54.498 --> 33:57.702
[SPEAKER_03]: how is there more dimension to this than just what I want it to be?
33:58.183 --> 33:59.545
[SPEAKER_03]: Send, right?
34:00.046 --> 34:04.492
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's kind of where I'm at with empirical coordinates.
34:04.952 --> 34:07.015
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think there's a time for everything.
34:07.055 --> 34:08.738
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a time to say those words.
34:09.859 --> 34:11.201
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sure like,
34:12.002 --> 34:35.376
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure if there was a shooting that happened in Tacoma with one of our churches that's down here, I'm sure I would say something imprecatory like because I would want justice, but what I want the person who committed that crime, if they got away with it, to just be tortured to death,
34:36.336 --> 34:43.344
[SPEAKER_03]: or do I want a deeper thing to happen to them to where they have a time in which they can respond to the gospel first?
34:44.185 --> 34:44.425
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
34:45.826 --> 34:47.308
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we can't forget to.
34:47.528 --> 34:49.030
[SPEAKER_03]: When you're saying that,
34:50.782 --> 34:51.663
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I agree.
34:51.683 --> 34:58.249
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we can't forget the gospel when when we are in our prayers, whether they are in Precutary in nature or not, right?
34:59.390 --> 35:08.679
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think when when we like we have to hold things in balance, there has to be nuance in our Christian walk.
35:09.159 --> 35:14.244
[SPEAKER_02]: We believe and call for justice, but we are also believers of grace and mercy.
35:15.183 --> 35:17.664
[SPEAKER_02]: and we need to understand how to utilize both.
35:18.524 --> 35:31.348
[SPEAKER_02]: So yes, we pray for the destruction of evil that the Lord would even in our prayers, Jesus, you know, we will say it flippantly.
35:31.928 --> 35:49.960
[SPEAKER_02]: right and then a Lord Jesus come quickly, you know, I come quickly, Lord Jesus, but in that there's there's a there's an understanding of of of of in precutoryness, if you will, it in that prayer, because we know what that means when Jesus decides to come again, right, it like there will be judgment.
35:50.261 --> 35:56.405
[SPEAKER_02]: There will be wrath, but I also even in that prayer, I desire that the gospel would go forth.
35:57.523 --> 36:06.648
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a lack of balance with a lot of these guys because like it or not, outrage sells, right?
36:06.708 --> 36:08.869
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not grace that gets the clicks and the shares.
36:08.989 --> 36:19.755
[SPEAKER_02]: It's outrage and if you can utilize scripture and spiritualize your outrage, if that's something you struggle with, you're going to have a temptation to do that.
36:19.815 --> 36:21.876
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what a lot of these guys do, sadly.
36:21.976 --> 36:23.737
[SPEAKER_02]: And in that, we forget the gospel.
36:23.837 --> 36:24.437
[SPEAKER_02]: We forget that
36:25.218 --> 36:44.171
[SPEAKER_02]: At the same time calling for justice and praying for evil to be destroyed, we must also have such a deep love for those that need Jesus, because they are only acting in and out of their sin nature, the exact same way you were before Jesus decided to save you.
36:44.971 --> 37:02.819
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have to hold things in balance, and unfortunately, one social media is not the place where that to happen, and two, in my experience, the vast majority of individuals that I see putting great emphasis on the utilization of the predatory songs or prayers are usually not the most balanced people.
37:03.656 --> 37:09.337
[SPEAKER_02]: because whenever you put an over emphasis on something, you're in balance, you just are.
37:09.738 --> 37:11.258
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's just kind of the nature of it.
37:11.318 --> 37:14.339
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's just been my experience with them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We hold all things, we hold all things in balance.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think when you do that, you're usually right where you need to be.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Jack, my man, um, want you, uh, want you to get us out of here, brother.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, um, if you appreciate Josh and I trying to take a stab at some big time controversies in the reformed world that happened every once in a while and trying to put him down to a local level to try and take him down to your local church level and to see what that looks like on a practical application level.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's what we want to do here at the repository.
37:50.845 --> 37:53.167
[SPEAKER_03]: We want to make the local church central to the baby's life.
37:53.727 --> 37:59.491
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you want to engage with us some more, you can do that on the sociables if you want.
37:59.931 --> 38:02.453
[SPEAKER_03]: The meta, the Facebook, the Instagram.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's a little bit of chocolate, marshmallows, sprinkle with heresy on top of it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Or even the sociable formerly known as Twitter X, and we are at the tag at Reformatory Pod, across all those sociable platforms.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Josh, you can tell lovely people how they might support us further here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: in our endeavours.
38:21.487 --> 38:24.789
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, what you can do is you can head on over to YouTube if you like watching.
38:24.809 --> 38:31.595
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to watch this as well as listen to it, you can give us a like and a follow or hit the little bell for notifications as the kids say.
38:31.635 --> 38:35.959
[SPEAKER_02]: That definitely makes the Instagrams a lot, a lot fun, especially that poppies video.
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[SPEAKER_02]: absolutely wild and it was a fun watch.
38:39.361 --> 38:41.861
[SPEAKER_02]: You can head on over there and do that.
38:41.941 --> 38:44.782
[SPEAKER_02]: You can like this podcast and rate to this podcast.
38:44.822 --> 38:48.243
[SPEAKER_02]: Review this podcast on Apple and Spotify does help get the podcast at the more people.
38:48.763 --> 38:52.044
[SPEAKER_02]: Last but not least, we have Patreon for $5 a month.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's all it is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can head on over there and you get to a couple of bonus episodes every month or excuse me every week.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's more than a month.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Every week.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Ladies and gentlemen, you get this episode early and you get fun things like we're gonna go do right now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to go watch Alistair Bay in his two-minal which is only his own, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, it's going to be, it's going to be, but you got to head over to Patreon for that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you choose to do so, our pledge to use the show name, Shabby Hallowed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hallowed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hallowed through the halls of the podcast.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That is our pledge to you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you all for listening and we will catch you on the next step of the reformatory.