Exploring Antisemitism's Roots with Magda Teter

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This file was generated by Descript
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Avi: We are two historians trying
to understand antisemitism,
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one question at a time.
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I'm your co-host, Avi Patt with Lila
Berman, and our plan is to discover
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the stories and scholars to help
make sense of antisemitism, today.
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Lila: We start with a theory that
the answer to understanding and maybe
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fighting antisemitism, is only as
good as the questions that one asks.
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Avi: And then we search far and wide
for the best questions and the best
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people who can ask and answer them.
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Spoiler, the two of us and
our guests don't always agree.
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Lila: In fact, that's more of the plot,
or at least part of it: how scholars and
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other people can passionately disagree
while remaining curious about one another
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and the world, one question at a time.
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Avi: Thank you for joining us for
this episode of the Jewish Question.
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Okay, We're very excited
to welcome our guest today.
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Our guest today is Magda Teter,
who is Professor of History and
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the Schidler Chair of Judaic
Studies at Fordham University.
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She's the author of Jews and Heretics in
Catholic Poland, published by Cambridge
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in 2006, Centers on Trial, published in
2011, which was a finalist for the Jordan
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Schnitzer Prize Blood Libel on the Trail
of an Antisemitic Myth, published in 2020,
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and Christian Supremacy Reckoning with the
Roots of Antisemitism and Racism published
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in 2023, as well as dozens of articles
in English, Hebrew, Italian, and Polish.
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Her essays have also appeared in the New
York Review of Books, Public Seminar,
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the JTA and others Blood Libel won the
2020 National Jewish Book Award as well
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as the George Al Mossy Prize from the
American Historical Association and the
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Beton Prize from the 16th Century Society.
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Teter is the recipient of prestigious
fellowships, including from the John
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Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation,
the Harry Frank Guggenheim Foundation,
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the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced
Studies at Harvard University, the Coleman
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Center for Scholars and Writers at the
New York Public Library and the NEH.
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Teter has curated or co-curated numerous
exhibits from contemporary Jewish art to
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topics such as censorship, antisemitism,
and racism, citizenship and belonging.
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She has served as the co-editor of the
Association for Jewish Studies Review,
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and as Vice President for Publications
of the Association for Jewish Studies.
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Teter is currently the president of the
American Academy for Jewish Research.
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Welcome Magda Teter.
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Magda: Thank you for having me.
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Lila: I have no idea how
you have time to be here.
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I feel like you should be being the
president of something or getting a
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fellowship as we speak, and I bet you are.
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So we're excited to talk to you in part
because you're such a luminary in the
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field of Jewish history and without a
doubt you're going to be able to enlighten
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us on all sorts of different topics
related to what we're interested in.
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But very specifically, when Avi and I
were talking about some of the driving
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questions we have about understanding
antisemitism now and what scholars and
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scholarship can help us understand,
it's clear that there's something about
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kind of the medieval world and medieval
times that is both a usable past and
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also very, very different from today.
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And your work seems to have had
this ability to think about the
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medieval past and think about how
to link it to forces that continue
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to be really important today.
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And really, I think as we drill
down, we're gonna be very, very
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interested in how you think
about the role of Christianity.
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What continuities you see that that
the Church has had in terms of how
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we think about antisemitism and what
vast differences there might be.
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so all of that is why you're here and
we're gonna try to get to all those
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different pieces, but really very
specifically thinking about the role
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of Christianity in antisemitism and
how Christianity kind of opens up
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to thinking about broader forms of
entangled hatreds with antisemitism.
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But we wanted you to start us with a story
because otherwise there's just too much
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in too many languages and we wouldn't know
how to kind of get a handle on all that
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you've done to really research the history
of antisemitism, and very, very important
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book you wrote, recently, although not
your most recent was about blood libel.
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and we're wondering if you can really
tell us and tell our listeners about
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an incident, an instance of a blood
libel, and what that means, how it
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spread and why it became such an
important kind of piece of thinking
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about the history of antisemitism.
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Magda: So, first of all, not everybody
may know what a blood libel is.
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I find that certainly with my students,
that they don't know what it means,
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and it's the, false accusation,
a lie that, just grew into, into
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trials and persecution of Jews and
myths and conspiracies that emerged
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in the medieval period and, that
Jews killed Christian children.
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It emerges, first as a murder libel.
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And I prefer that better than
the ritual murder phrase, and we
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can talk about it if we want to.
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And then there was this blood,
element that Jews do it in order
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to take blood and consume the
blood of these, of these children.
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And it became this very powerful lie.
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There were a lot of lies about Jews, a
lot of spurious accusations that emerged
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in the medieval period, such as the
poisoning of wells, which also kind of
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percolated up, um, during the pandemic.
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So there are certain things that
come, come up again and again.
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But this one sort of persisted.
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Persisted and, it's currently with us both
as a motif motivating white supremacists
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who are attacking synagogues as, was
the case in Poway [California], as well
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as in anti-Israeli iconography and, and
tropes that emerge from the anti-Israeli,
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discourse and opposition to, to Israel.
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So, so these motifs, emerged,
but the, libel emerges in a very
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specific, everything emerges
in a very specific moment.
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And I actually, even though my scholarship
really spans millennia, I also am
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resistant to this idea of this longest
hatred that it always has been like that.
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So this, this accusation emerges in the
medieval period out of internal disputes
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and, and concerns with Christianity.
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Liturgy changes focus on Jesus's,
crucifixion, and then it just grows.
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And one of the story that really
encompasses that, that really moment
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from legends and ideas and thoughts
and, and, and tales to when it
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becomes really a powerful story is
the trial of Jews in, in Trento, which
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is now in Northern Italy in 1472.
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And that is when a 26 month old boy
is found dead or first disappears
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and this is Easter/Passover coinciding.
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And, Jews are initially actually not
accused at all, but then are accused
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that they are the murderers of this boy.
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And what happens in that moment is
that 1492 is a moment where we have
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new media that is the printing press.
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So these other tales from the medieval
period, which were very local, which
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were just one line accusations, becomes
weaponized by the bishop, local bishop
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to accuse Jews to spread the call
because he wants people to come to
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Trenta to promote the town, the little
martyr and uses the visual culture.
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Poems, songs, tales.
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So it, really helps disseminate the story
and for the first time puts an image,
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visualization to these tales where people
may have said, oh, I heard you just killed
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a child in Norwich or somewhere else.
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Suddenly there's a whole
narrative there and it developed
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narrative with visual culture.
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Avi: If I can jump in there, Magda,
I'm just curious, I want you to,
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to explain this a little bit more,
that what you're saying is that this
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image, this idea that the Jews used,
the blood of Christian children for
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the rituals had existed beforehand.
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That there were cases in England, for
example, in the, in the 1100s, I believe,
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a case in, in Norwich, for example, but
that it, it didn't necessarily spread
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far beyond sort of these local examples,
but something happens in the late 15th
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century that gives this idea of, in Trent
in in Italy, greater, greater resonance.
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So just tell us sort of how is it that
this idea spread so far and wide at that
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moment in time in the late 15th century?
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What's the, the key
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Magda: So correction, the
Norwich, the 1144 is a tale.
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There was a dead, tween, 12-year-old
boy, but Jews are actually not tried.
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Not that the, the legend emerges,
years later after a monk comes in
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and starts spreading the story.
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So there's actually nothing directly
connecting Jews to that story.
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That is a later story.
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And it's just a murder story.
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The, blood libel emerges in 13th century
out of transubstantiation connection.
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I can go into that because that
connects my two books, actually, about
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Host desecration and, and the ritual.
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But what happens in the, in the, 15th
century or in that case in Trento,
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that you have a convergence of
political and media and other personal
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aspects, that not every child who
died in March or April around Easter,
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or Passover led to a trial of Jews.
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That's, I think, something really
important to remember because we,
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when we think about that, it seems
like every time Jews are accused.
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And that's not necessarily true, that's
the kind of memory that came with that.
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But here, and that, I think this is
something for us to remember, that these
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kinds of, in incidents, these kinds of
ruptures happen in specific context.
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When there are individuals
that are driving it.
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And in this particular case, there
is a bishop who has an agenda and
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he is using this moment to drive
his political agenda against Pope.
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He's in conflict with the Pope,
to rise the, the town's profile
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during a jubilee year when pilgrims
are going to Rome, he wants them
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to stop there and not go through
another route from Northern Europe.
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He wants to rise his own, own profile.
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and he commits resources.
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He funds propaganda, really, that we see.
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And, and he funds it and he does it
at a time when he can spread it widely
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with this new technology of print.
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Lila: So, so it sounds like you're
telling us like a few pieces that
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we need to understand this, right?
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So one is that there was this
personal motivation, this
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political motivation, right?
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And that at other moments when you
might have had similar events happen
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and even perhaps, you know, some sense
of suspicion without that like personal
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motive, without that political goal,
it wouldn't have necessarily become
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something that, spread in this way.
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But the second piece is the
technology of spreading it, right?
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So the instruments, the printing press,
the greater connectivity, the imagery
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that you talked about to spread it.
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And I guess I'm curious, was there
anything from the side of the
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Jewish community and their response
that either mitigated some of
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this or amplified some of this?
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Like was there a role that,
that they were playing.
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Magda: So the Jewish community in
the town of, of, of Trento was tiny.
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30, maybe at most 30
people, three households.
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They were just living their lives.
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They were, um, Trent is on the border
between German speaking and Italian
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speaking communities, so the town was
kind of divided, so the Jewish community,
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we actually don't have anything.
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We have one poem commemorating
the Jewish martyrs.
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So what we have is we have,
evidence that is collected by
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the bishop who has the agenda.
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And that is something for
us as historians as well.
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To think very deeply about where
our historical sources are and what
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stories we're telling, how they are
created, and why they are created.
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So, this, what we really literally have
is what the Bishop wanted us to have.
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and there are, the other
evidence has, disappeared.
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the other sources have disappeared.
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There's actually a mystery about this
one set of trial records that were
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sealed, that no longer, that were not
edited, that were, are no longer with us.
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so, So that that is something that is, for
us, very, important, to, to think about.
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There is the personal and there is the,
but it, it grafts onto something, right?
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So you have, that's why you have a,
a, this cultural or knowledge that
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be, that allowed him to graft on
something that was floating around,
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to make his agenda and his, you know,
his actions, credible and believable.
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Otherwise, people would say like,
what, what are you talking about?
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Jews never do such things.
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And the whole, the whole libel, whether
initially the murder libel or later
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on the blood libel, Is able to spread
because it begins to fit into the story
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of crucifixion and the troops of Jews that
emerged from the New Testament and from
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the vignettes in the, in the, Christian,
Bible of, of Jews responsible for, for
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killing Jesus of Jews, being enemies
of Jesus and therefore of Christians.
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so, so that, that begins
to, to, to graft onto it.
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And one thing that, that is important
to, to know these stories as they emerge
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in the medieval period sounds very
familiar, but because they are told
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through that lens of the crucifixion
of the story, it's not that they
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invent this language, is that they
graft onto the existing language.
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Of liturgy within, within Christianity.
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And then they develop into something
tangible in, in the, in this moment.
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And what is very powerful about
this, this story is, you know, the,
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the accusations that Jews stole, the
Communion waiver, who believes in it now?
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Nobody would believe in it now.
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That goes away.
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This one is so powerful.
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Everybody can imagine their child being
attacked or, of, of some sort of, so, so
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that really helps, sort of crystallized
that image of Jews as killers that was
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already there through the Christian story
of, of Jesus and his, his crucifixion.
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Avi: Yeah.
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And you know, one of the things that you
mentioned before is the ways in which this
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motif of the Jews as being blood thirsty
murderers who use the blood of Christian
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children, it, it crops up at different
places in different moments in time.
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Right.
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So you can talk about, this case in 1475,
but one of the things, and I'll just a
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plug for something that I think is amazing
that you do with this project is you have
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this website that's called On the Trail
of the Blood lipor of Blood Libel Trail,
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which maps the ways in which this motif
and this imagery crops up at different
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places and different moments in time.
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So it's quite fascinating to map
it in this way and to see that.
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It spreads, and as you suggest, it spreads
through the use of new technologies.
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But it also has a, a quality that is so
powerful because of the imagery that's
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associated with it, that we see it not
just in the 15th and the 16th and the
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17th, the 18th centuries, but, but up
until, you know, in, Julius Streicher
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uses it in Der Stürmer these famous covers
of Der Stürmer images of Jews using the
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blood of Christian children and up to the
21st century in, in the United States.
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Right.
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We see it.
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So what do you think accounts for that
powerful resonance in the fact that
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it, this, this is one of these tropes
that does sort of transcend time and
00:17:31.365 --> 00:17:36.645
place and continues to emerge around,
around the world, up to the present day?
00:17:37.300 --> 00:17:41.740
Magda: I think, I'm glad you
brought up the maps because the
00:17:41.740 --> 00:17:44.150
maps were, actually an afterthought.
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:47.930
When I was sending the book to press,
I needed to create a map, and I hated
00:17:47.930 --> 00:17:53.870
the map because it showed the dots as
if all my stories were facts were Jews
00:17:53.870 --> 00:17:56.260
were all, you know, accused and, and.
00:17:57.015 --> 00:17:58.575
Convicted and maybe killed.
00:17:58.875 --> 00:18:00.525
And I didn't like the map.
00:18:00.585 --> 00:18:07.215
And one of the thing is that the maps
on the website show where, where these
00:18:07.215 --> 00:18:11.145
stories are fictitious, where they
are actually, we have no evidence.
00:18:11.625 --> 00:18:16.815
They, they, they become facts in
the way they are told, whether
00:18:16.875 --> 00:18:24.285
either by antisemites or in certain
chronicles that like Norwich, you
00:18:24.285 --> 00:18:26.295
know, Jews were not killed in Norwich.
00:18:26.295 --> 00:18:27.255
There's no accusation.
00:18:27.255 --> 00:18:29.805
It's a legend that comes in decades later.
00:18:30.265 --> 00:18:35.275
Many of them are just one line
sentences in some chronicles.
00:18:35.275 --> 00:18:36.475
We have no other evidence.
00:18:36.475 --> 00:18:41.585
We don't know that if anything happened
at all or if this is just, just a, a
00:18:41.585 --> 00:18:44.435
lie and a rumor that becomes accurate.
00:18:44.465 --> 00:18:48.175
So Non-Jews don't always
accept the stories.
00:18:48.895 --> 00:18:53.065
And this is something that is often
forgotten when we talk about these
00:18:53.065 --> 00:18:59.555
anti-Jewish accusations because we see
on how this story, actually is spreads.
00:18:59.585 --> 00:19:04.805
And this is important to remember and
it leads to the deaths on of many Jews.
00:19:05.165 --> 00:19:11.295
But it is also important to remember that
not everywhere where such accusation or
00:19:11.295 --> 00:19:14.700
even rumor emerges this goes anywhere.
00:19:15.270 --> 00:19:20.760
So that is the kind of unpacking
of historical evidence of, to, to
00:19:20.760 --> 00:19:23.490
understand how these rumors become.
00:19:23.490 --> 00:19:30.190
And I think this is very powerful for
our times because, things people believe
00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:35.910
spread online were the ones that were
in fact, these rumors, these tales that
00:19:35.910 --> 00:19:42.070
were carried by word of mouth, from place
to place that had no necessary basis of
00:19:42.070 --> 00:19:48.260
that, except that it spread much more
slowly than what we see, see today.
00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:51.110
But they nonetheless become facts.
00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:57.890
And the, the, the, the story of Trento
is different because it, it becomes a, a
00:19:57.890 --> 00:20:00.350
kind of embodiment of all these stories.
00:20:00.725 --> 00:20:05.885
And then it gets put into all
these learned books and chronicles
00:20:06.425 --> 00:20:09.025
and, develops the imagery.
00:20:09.025 --> 00:20:09.265
Right.
00:20:09.322 --> 00:20:11.542
Just a iconographic vocabulary.
00:20:11.782 --> 00:20:15.413
You mentioned the, chronicle from 1475.
00:20:15.413 --> 00:20:18.533
This is an interesting,
another cautionary tale.
00:20:18.893 --> 00:20:25.863
It's a powerful image showing Jews
killing, Simon, the, the boy from Trenta.
00:20:26.943 --> 00:20:28.443
This image was forgotten.
00:20:29.443 --> 00:20:36.713
It only emerged in one book in the early,
20th century, I think 1911 on the sort
00:20:36.713 --> 00:20:39.233
of representations of Jews in print.
00:20:39.923 --> 00:20:46.443
And then it really enters the
mainstream, when a facsimile copy
00:20:46.443 --> 00:20:52.273
is of this chronicle in, the German
edition is published in Leipzig 1933.
00:20:52.618 --> 00:20:59.398
After Hitler comes to power, and then
the Nazis begin to include it in their
00:20:59.398 --> 00:21:01.678
application, in their propaganda.
00:21:01.678 --> 00:21:06.448
So it enters then Der
Stürmer in May, 1934.
00:21:06.808 --> 00:21:09.798
And then other Nazi propaganda, thing.
00:21:09.888 --> 00:21:11.958
So this is another one of those.
00:21:12.438 --> 00:21:18.078
It doesn't, there's no indirect
through line and we have to be
00:21:18.078 --> 00:21:23.148
very careful to make those claims
about an indirect through line.
00:21:23.598 --> 00:21:28.848
because what it, it did these, this
story and these stories, do, they
00:21:28.848 --> 00:21:36.208
create a reservoir of, of material
that is then used and abused in
00:21:36.208 --> 00:21:38.308
very specific moments of time.
00:21:39.313 --> 00:21:42.613
Lila: So it's, it's interesting
because one of your preliminary remarks
00:21:42.613 --> 00:21:46.243
was that you are very resistant to
the idea of describing antisemitism
00:21:46.243 --> 00:21:48.493
as the eternal or longest hatred.
00:21:48.883 --> 00:21:53.113
and I see your real sort of
prudence and, and the care with
00:21:53.113 --> 00:21:56.893
which you take to talk about the
sources and this mapping project.
00:21:56.973 --> 00:21:59.973
our listeners absolutely
should check out these maps.
00:22:00.123 --> 00:22:04.623
You know, it's really an extraordinary
resource to use to, to look at
00:22:04.653 --> 00:22:08.583
empirically speaking how these
different blood, blood libels worked.
00:22:08.583 --> 00:22:11.713
What kinds of sources, were
they legal, were they literary?
00:22:11.713 --> 00:22:12.883
All of these questions.
00:22:13.093 --> 00:22:18.823
So you're, you're being so, so careful
about that, and yet there's a little piece
00:22:18.823 --> 00:22:22.633
of what you're doing that also is sort
of pushing back against that because.
00:22:22.948 --> 00:22:27.738
All of this, you talk about this case
with, with Simon and the bishop who has
00:22:27.738 --> 00:22:32.178
this political motivation, but it's also
couched in the rise of the Christian
00:22:32.178 --> 00:22:37.728
Church and we know at least from theories
that are promulgated by folks like David
00:22:37.728 --> 00:22:43.338
Nirenberg and other scholars that part of
the basis of Christianity is superseding
00:22:43.578 --> 00:22:50.508
Judaism and creating this kind of figure
of the Jew as obderate as that which
00:22:50.508 --> 00:22:52.848
needs to be supplanted or overcome.
00:22:53.228 --> 00:22:56.318
and these blood libels
are not unrelated to that.
00:22:56.588 --> 00:23:00.488
So that would sort of suggest that
there is some kind of through line.
00:23:00.488 --> 00:23:03.368
So I'm really curious
about that kind of tension.
00:23:03.913 --> 00:23:06.703
Magda: Yes, there is a, there's
definitely a through line, right?
00:23:06.703 --> 00:23:07.963
And, and, and historians.
00:23:08.988 --> 00:23:15.138
And scholars of antisemitism have
been debating that whole question.
00:23:15.168 --> 00:23:21.338
How do we, distinguish is, what,
what, what the church fathers say
00:23:21.338 --> 00:23:27.458
in the second century of the Common
Era antisemitism, same as what the
00:23:27.458 --> 00:23:31.148
Nazis are doing in 1930s, 1940s.
00:23:31.658 --> 00:23:35.658
And of course, it's a very, it's a
very difficult, difficult question.
00:23:35.658 --> 00:23:38.898
And people have approached it
from theological, perspective,
00:23:38.898 --> 00:23:41.218
from, psychological perspective.
00:23:41.218 --> 00:23:45.638
There were all these kinds of
explanations, trying to historicize it.
00:23:46.148 --> 00:23:50.048
And, and I think we need to
historicize it, but we also need
00:23:50.048 --> 00:23:55.418
to think about these continuities
and understand how they function,
00:23:55.468 --> 00:23:57.628
socially and, and, and in that way.
00:23:57.838 --> 00:24:02.738
And I, and I really want, Urge
people to get away from the, from
00:24:03.128 --> 00:24:06.998
the idea of the longest hatred
from the emo history of emotion.
00:24:06.998 --> 00:24:12.458
Obviously there are emotions
in this process, but what we're
00:24:12.698 --> 00:24:15.518
seeing is not always hatred.
00:24:15.608 --> 00:24:18.623
And I'm not talking here about the
blood libel because that's a, a,
00:24:18.623 --> 00:24:21.668
a, a different, aspect, of that.
00:24:21.758 --> 00:24:28.508
But what we are seeing is the
development of power dynamics of,
00:24:28.558 --> 00:24:34.388
if there is an emotion, it's an
emotion of contempt initially, in
00:24:34.388 --> 00:24:36.938
that kind of displacement of Jews.
00:24:36.938 --> 00:24:41.708
From there and the superiority of
Christianity and the assignment
00:24:41.708 --> 00:24:45.908
of the inferior position within
Judaism, then within legal structures.
00:24:46.488 --> 00:24:51.488
this is implemented of putting
Jews legally and socially on a
00:24:51.488 --> 00:24:56.958
lower position and stigmatizing
them as figures in society, right?
00:24:56.988 --> 00:25:02.908
Not just in terms of ideas and
emotions and, so we have to sort of
00:25:02.998 --> 00:25:08.758
think about what this does and how it
functions rather than explain things
00:25:09.028 --> 00:25:11.428
in terms of, in terms of emotions.
00:25:11.428 --> 00:25:14.968
Because although there is a history
of emotion, it's very difficult
00:25:14.968 --> 00:25:16.858
to kind of historicize hatred.
00:25:17.378 --> 00:25:18.998
you can historicize.
00:25:19.613 --> 00:25:24.053
The transmission of knowledge,
the transmission of ideas, right?
00:25:24.053 --> 00:25:29.353
You can, map it like Nirenberg does
it in his book of anti-Judaism, or
00:25:29.353 --> 00:25:33.493
as I do with the blood libel, where
I really unpack it and I explain that
00:25:33.493 --> 00:25:35.593
this is not a medieval phenomenon.
00:25:35.593 --> 00:25:41.923
It emerges in the medieval period,
but it really takes off in this, after
00:25:41.923 --> 00:25:48.103
the trial of Jews of Trent in 1475,
in the 16th century and beyond, right?
00:25:48.263 --> 00:25:53.723
the largest number of anti-Jewish
persecution around the topic of
00:25:53.723 --> 00:25:58.240
accusations that they killed Christian
children is actually, second half of the
00:25:58.306 --> 00:26:02.236
16th century and until the 19th century.
00:26:02.416 --> 00:26:04.516
It's not in the medieval period, right?
00:26:04.516 --> 00:26:07.246
This is something that people
may not realize, but when you
00:26:07.246 --> 00:26:11.476
look at that evidence, and that's
the impact of this one story.
00:26:12.251 --> 00:26:16.891
that's where we, we have to be kind of
careful, to not necessarily make that
00:26:16.891 --> 00:26:19.811
connection from Norwich to Der Stürmer.
00:26:20.201 --> 00:26:21.101
try to understand.
00:26:21.101 --> 00:26:28.141
and the reason why it becomes such
a, such a embedded idea about Jews is
00:26:28.141 --> 00:26:34.261
because it enters this reservoir of
knowledge and of authorized knowledge
00:26:34.291 --> 00:26:40.901
of really high brow chronicles of high
brow histories, that are authoritative.
00:26:41.511 --> 00:26:46.541
as one of my, 17th century or 18th
century writers said, who do you trust?
00:26:46.541 --> 00:26:47.471
The Rabbis?
00:26:47.591 --> 00:26:51.221
Obviously Jews were trying
to mobilize defenses.
00:26:51.651 --> 00:26:55.931
Do you trust the Fathers of
the Church and it, enters these
00:26:56.561 --> 00:26:59.511
authorized, authoritative books?
00:26:59.751 --> 00:27:00.531
And of course.
00:27:01.536 --> 00:27:05.346
When you're reading them, you are going
to believe those who are believing it.
00:27:05.396 --> 00:27:07.856
Who are, who you consider authoritative.
00:27:08.856 --> 00:27:09.036
Avi: Yeah.
00:27:09.036 --> 00:27:14.093
One of the things that I find fascinating
about this is thinking about, sort of
00:27:14.153 --> 00:27:18.323
your, your approach as someone who studies
not just medieval history, but these
00:27:18.323 --> 00:27:25.403
longer stretches of history and how that
informs sort of what we, we may have
00:27:25.403 --> 00:27:29.513
preconceived notions about what happens
in the, in the Modern Era, and that
00:27:29.513 --> 00:27:34.973
there's this sort of constant movement
towards progress and enlightenment and
00:27:34.973 --> 00:27:37.313
greater integration and acceptance.
00:27:37.838 --> 00:27:42.608
But I think what you might be suggesting
is that there are certain modes of thought
00:27:42.638 --> 00:27:47.498
about the Jew, and here I'm saying in
quotation marks the Jew or what the Jew
00:27:47.498 --> 00:27:53.648
is imagined to be and the place of the
Jew in society that might condition,
00:27:53.698 --> 00:27:58.138
sort of the way in which the Jew is
imagined, or the way in which the image
00:27:58.138 --> 00:28:03.988
of the Jew is utilized by other forces,
be it the church or other forces that
00:28:03.988 --> 00:28:08.098
then influence, you know, the possibility
of the Jews to either successfully
00:28:08.098 --> 00:28:13.698
integrate or to even respond to different
forms of anti-Jewish hate that, you
00:28:13.698 --> 00:28:17.208
know, not that Jews would be completely
powerless to respond, but it might limit
00:28:17.208 --> 00:28:19.338
the ability of, of the Jew to respond.
00:28:19.338 --> 00:28:24.208
But that also sort of looking at these
longer periods of history, it allows
00:28:24.208 --> 00:28:28.468
you to sort of see how these structures
of thought influence the place of
00:28:28.468 --> 00:28:31.948
the Jew in, in different ways that we
might not appreciate if we just focus
00:28:31.948 --> 00:28:33.808
on a very specific moment in time.
00:28:35.038 --> 00:28:35.608
Magda: That's right.
00:28:35.608 --> 00:28:38.608
And one of the things I think
that we haven't yet talked
00:28:38.608 --> 00:28:40.678
about, but as why Jews, right.
00:28:41.728 --> 00:28:46.518
and one of the reasons it's not, of
course when you look at the, you know,
00:28:46.548 --> 00:28:51.288
ancient literature, including some
biblical look at the Book of Esther,
00:28:51.288 --> 00:28:56.778
obviously there is evidence of anti-Jewish
persecution or persecution of Israelites.
00:28:57.148 --> 00:28:57.928
before that.
00:28:58.348 --> 00:29:02.268
What is, and, and scholars like
Peter Schäfer have shown it, you
00:29:02.268 --> 00:29:07.258
know, in antiquity, in Egypt, in
in, in Elephantine and other places.
00:29:07.858 --> 00:29:12.298
But what is, what is interesting with
Christianity, and I think this is the
00:29:12.298 --> 00:29:20.518
very key moment why Jews, is that the
early Christianity embeds this idea of
00:29:20.518 --> 00:29:26.698
the Jew as a contrast figure for its own
identity for its own kind of debates.
00:29:26.698 --> 00:29:29.698
When Paul is writing, he's not
necessarily addressing Jews.
00:29:29.698 --> 00:29:31.078
I mean he's Jewish himself.
00:29:31.498 --> 00:29:36.478
All these other Christian writers then
draw on Paul's writing and his idea of
00:29:36.478 --> 00:29:39.268
Jews and Judaism, how he conceptualize it.
00:29:39.868 --> 00:29:48.118
So Jews become these kind of hermeneutical
tools, to create and define and finesse
00:29:48.118 --> 00:29:50.578
the Christian identity of what they are.
00:29:51.248 --> 00:29:54.968
There are communities all over
the Roman Empire, obviously and
00:29:54.968 --> 00:29:57.938
beyond, but they're really small.
00:29:58.448 --> 00:30:05.468
So what happens is that as Christianity
expands and becomes the universal
00:30:05.468 --> 00:30:12.578
religion, it takes with itself these
texts in which Jews are so embedded.
00:30:13.178 --> 00:30:21.068
So it universalizes its own problem
with Jews on a larger level.
00:30:21.758 --> 00:30:26.198
So Christians who might begin
to be believing Christians are
00:30:26.198 --> 00:30:27.668
suddenly hearing about Jews.
00:30:27.668 --> 00:30:31.208
They may not have encountered
Jews in their entire lives,
00:30:31.508 --> 00:30:33.488
but they know of Jews, right?
00:30:33.488 --> 00:30:38.258
So then when real Jews show up and
where, when they encounter real
00:30:38.258 --> 00:30:43.658
Jews, they might have a certain,
oh, you are the ones who are.
00:30:44.153 --> 00:30:50.513
You know, materialistic and carnal and
concerned only with money and Jesus
00:30:50.513 --> 00:30:54.953
is done and you are dangerous and you
are enemies of us in that kind of way.
00:30:54.953 --> 00:31:02.723
So the, the, the, the hermeneutical
idea of the Jew then has an effect on
00:31:02.783 --> 00:31:09.923
real Jews, and then this theological
idea that Jews are this lesser than,
00:31:09.923 --> 00:31:15.563
and Christians are the ones who have
replaced them, gets embedded in law,
00:31:15.563 --> 00:31:18.413
which affects real Jews as well.
00:31:18.503 --> 00:31:19.013
Right?
00:31:19.073 --> 00:31:24.423
So, the idea that Jews, the elder shall
serve the younger, a biblical text from
00:31:24.423 --> 00:31:30.633
the Torah, from the book of Genesis, from
Jewish Scriptures, gets reinterpreted
00:31:31.053 --> 00:31:36.663
in Christian writings to the fa, the
point where in the Roman Empire and says,
00:31:36.663 --> 00:31:38.463
oh yeah, they should be serving, they.
00:31:38.763 --> 00:31:42.453
We shouldn't allow them to
own Christian slaves, right?
00:31:42.753 --> 00:31:45.423
They shouldn't be under Jewish authority.
00:31:45.723 --> 00:31:53.513
And that begins to emerge into real legal,
social structures that, that, that then
00:31:53.513 --> 00:31:56.753
reflect that, that theological thinking.
00:31:57.673 --> 00:32:00.693
Lila: So, I mean, this is
like you just offered a really
00:32:00.818 --> 00:32:02.378
wonderful encapsulation of.
00:32:02.753 --> 00:32:06.293
The book Christian Supremacy
that you published in 20, is
00:32:06.293 --> 00:32:07.673
it 23 that you published it?
00:32:08.213 --> 00:32:13.133
which is such a bold book, but also
a book that in a sense only you could
00:32:13.133 --> 00:32:19.163
write because it's talking about that
bridge between the kind of hermeneutical
00:32:19.163 --> 00:32:24.053
Jew and the reality of experience,
but it's doing something else as well,
00:32:24.053 --> 00:32:28.313
which is saying it's, it's not just
the Jew that is the hermeneutic, it's,
00:32:28.343 --> 00:32:34.313
it becomes this idea of supremacy tied
to ideas of the invention of race.
00:32:34.763 --> 00:32:41.223
and in that book you really show this
kind of entanglement of, antisemitism and
00:32:41.223 --> 00:32:45.513
anti-Black racism and how the kind of.
00:32:46.143 --> 00:32:51.423
Premise of Christian supremacy is at
the heart of both of these, right?
00:32:51.423 --> 00:32:56.433
And so in a way that, that kind of returns
us to this big question we have about
00:32:56.913 --> 00:32:59.793
the role of Christianity in all of this.
00:32:59.793 --> 00:33:00.153
Right.
00:33:00.153 --> 00:33:03.873
And I guess like one thing I'm kind
of curious about is, in addition to
00:33:03.873 --> 00:33:10.293
being a bold book is a bold title,
and I am curious, and maybe it
00:33:10.293 --> 00:33:13.563
wasn't as much of the reality when
you were thinking of the title.
00:33:13.563 --> 00:33:19.143
Like, I am curious if you got
pushback, if people were upset about
00:33:19.953 --> 00:33:21.873
a book titled Christian Supremacy.
00:33:21.933 --> 00:33:24.368
and kind of what, what
you were saying with it.
00:33:25.233 --> 00:33:30.083
Magda: So, none of my books for the
record have appeared under the titles
00:33:30.083 --> 00:33:35.138
that I have submitted to press,
so, it's usually the, the marketing
00:33:35.138 --> 00:33:37.598
department, people who intervene in that.
00:33:37.598 --> 00:33:40.508
I usually have some, wordier, titles.
00:33:40.508 --> 00:33:44.708
Usually I usually like to use the
word, the, the words from the primary
00:33:44.708 --> 00:33:49.278
sources to, to kind of make the
statement, but they never like the
00:33:49.308 --> 00:33:51.758
that, so they always, change the title.
00:33:51.758 --> 00:33:53.498
So I'm like, okay, I write books.
00:33:53.498 --> 00:33:55.658
You sell books, let's we have a deal.
00:33:56.438 --> 00:34:04.158
it is a, a a a, a provocative title and
but it does, sum up something and I make,
00:34:04.188 --> 00:34:10.458
make it very clear that I use the word
supremacy in a very technical sense.
00:34:10.458 --> 00:34:14.578
I don't use it in that sort
of, general vague sense that
00:34:14.578 --> 00:34:17.478
is often used in, in, today's,
00:34:17.533 --> 00:34:18.493
The discourse.
00:34:18.553 --> 00:34:23.853
And what I mean by it is the, the
power of the state, the supremacy
00:34:23.853 --> 00:34:26.193
as the, as, as authority and power.
00:34:26.703 --> 00:34:32.663
And what I am trying to do, is I, I
wrote this book for a number of reasons,
00:34:32.663 --> 00:34:38.233
but one of them in emerge from my utter
dissatisfaction with this, scholarship
00:34:38.233 --> 00:34:45.103
on antisemitism, I have not found an
explanation about the longevity of it.
00:34:45.103 --> 00:34:47.533
And hatred was not just doing it for me.
00:34:48.073 --> 00:34:53.863
so, I wanted to understand this, this
longevity, and I wanted to understand
00:34:53.863 --> 00:34:57.443
how, how people kind of, are absorbing.
00:34:57.773 --> 00:35:00.293
These ideas about Jews and their position.
00:35:00.293 --> 00:35:05.463
And what, what helped me, was
actually engaging with and reading
00:35:05.463 --> 00:35:08.263
about, Black, history in America.
00:35:08.733 --> 00:35:13.833
and I noticed that as I was reading,
I kept like jotting, I'm like,
00:35:13.833 --> 00:35:18.693
this is, this is the same language
that was used earlier about Jews.
00:35:18.693 --> 00:35:20.283
And I started noticing things.
00:35:20.403 --> 00:35:24.573
And that's what made me think about that.
00:35:24.573 --> 00:35:28.353
We, we have to move away from the
question of emotion and we need to
00:35:28.563 --> 00:35:30.783
understand the dynamics of power.
00:35:30.783 --> 00:35:35.283
And of course this is power and Jews
is one of the sort of things that
00:35:35.283 --> 00:35:39.693
people don't want to engage because
it's such an antisemitic trope.
00:35:40.323 --> 00:35:45.003
but I had sort of been, I mean,
I've been interested in law.
00:35:45.528 --> 00:35:49.828
As, Avi and I were talking
earlier already, my dissertation,
00:35:50.078 --> 00:35:52.568
that's law was, was of interest.
00:35:53.028 --> 00:35:57.798
but I realized that then in the, all
these histories of antisemitism we've
00:35:57.798 --> 00:36:02.848
been talking about, as I said, theology,
psychology, sociology, all these things,
00:36:03.418 --> 00:36:09.208
but no one really looked deeply at the
role of the law and legal structures.
00:36:09.538 --> 00:36:14.728
And the, the, the conversations and
the scholarship on structural racism
00:36:15.268 --> 00:36:20.878
made me really, see is much more
clearly that there is much more going
00:36:20.878 --> 00:36:23.638
on than just the discourse about Jews.
00:36:23.638 --> 00:36:29.038
That there are actual legal
structures that embody this, this
00:36:29.038 --> 00:36:32.188
discourse and, and, in, in real life.
00:36:32.708 --> 00:36:38.168
and that then leads to a rejection of
Jews from equality in the modern period.
00:36:38.513 --> 00:36:44.183
And the rise of political antisemitism
that is really emerges as a reaction
00:36:44.183 --> 00:36:48.773
to Jewish equality or Jewish equal
citizenship, and the rejection of
00:36:48.773 --> 00:36:51.203
that premise that Jews could be equal.
00:36:51.413 --> 00:36:56.273
So I began to see these, these
similarities, these sort of parallels.
00:36:56.733 --> 00:36:59.193
and, and it needed an explanation.
00:36:59.193 --> 00:37:03.123
I didn't want, just like a trite thing,
oh, there are these similarities.
00:37:03.123 --> 00:37:07.293
I, I, I had a feeling that there's
something going deeper going
00:37:07.293 --> 00:37:11.073
on, and this was the dynamics of
power and the legal frameworks.
00:37:11.193 --> 00:37:18.063
And in fact, many of the anti-Black laws
are echoing the Roman laws against Jews
00:37:18.063 --> 00:37:24.093
that are, that were promulgated in the
fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries about
00:37:24.483 --> 00:37:30.433
witnesses, about, intermarriage, about,
prohibition from, of public, holding
00:37:30.433 --> 00:37:32.593
public office and all kinds of things.
00:37:33.008 --> 00:37:33.638
like that.
00:37:33.638 --> 00:37:40.688
And it's from that subjugation of Jews
from that idea that they are in inferior,
00:37:40.868 --> 00:37:46.398
but because they are theologically
punished, emerges this idea of Jewish
00:37:46.398 --> 00:37:52.878
power whenever Jews having more than
Christians think that they deserve.
00:37:53.278 --> 00:37:58.738
so it's that kind of interaction
between law and culture that I think
00:37:59.218 --> 00:38:06.698
helps us explain better, this, this,
longevity of those of those ideas.
00:38:06.728 --> 00:38:08.173
And also, white Jews.
00:38:09.173 --> 00:38:14.063
Avi: So if, if, if I'm understanding
this, this argument, correct me and
00:38:14.063 --> 00:38:18.353
correct me if I'm wrong, but it's that
it's not just that when you put the
00:38:18.353 --> 00:38:24.483
two side by side sort of understanding
antisemitism and, anti-Black racism,
00:38:24.843 --> 00:38:30.543
that there is sort of a, a form of
hatred or even, racial thinking, that
00:38:30.543 --> 00:38:32.193
that exists, that unites the two.
00:38:32.193 --> 00:38:38.943
But there's actually this usage of
sort of creating an image of the
00:38:38.943 --> 00:38:46.263
Jew or an image of the black as an
other, as a, as a proverbial other.
00:38:46.533 --> 00:38:51.408
That helps to then structure sort of
these hierarchies of, in this case.
00:38:52.148 --> 00:38:56.318
White supremacy or Christian supremacy
so that it's, it's not just about sort
00:38:56.318 --> 00:39:01.118
of the invented racial categories that
Jews or blacks inhabit, but it's about
00:39:01.418 --> 00:39:09.788
using those invented categories to justify
the supremacy of one group over another.
00:39:09.908 --> 00:39:11.168
Is that accurate?
00:39:11.318 --> 00:39:15.338
Magda: And it's not that they are just
other, but they are explicitly and
00:39:15.338 --> 00:39:22.658
inferior as other, and that I think is
really important to, to do with Jews.
00:39:22.928 --> 00:39:26.828
They're in inferior because
they are punished theologically
00:39:26.828 --> 00:39:28.148
for their sins, right?
00:39:28.148 --> 00:39:30.578
This is the, this is sort
of the eternal punishment.
00:39:30.578 --> 00:39:31.508
That's where it's coming.
00:39:31.508 --> 00:39:37.488
And they should be subjugated, in
perpetuity or un until they convert to
00:39:37.488 --> 00:39:44.118
Christianity and accept the truth with so
that inferiorities and impose inferiority,
00:39:44.578 --> 00:39:49.108
for, but, but what it did, and, and I'll
switch to the anti-Black racism in a
00:39:49.108 --> 00:39:54.868
moment, but what it did, it created that
identity of superiority among Christians.
00:39:55.228 --> 00:40:01.458
And then as Christianity, really embedded
itself on the European continent, right?
00:40:01.458 --> 00:40:05.638
Christianity emerges in the
Middle East, but becomes, sort of
00:40:05.638 --> 00:40:07.708
embedded in the European identity.
00:40:08.188 --> 00:40:15.248
when Europe expands to colonial,
new starts colonizing the world and
00:40:15.248 --> 00:40:22.088
starts engaging with other continents,
that tr transforms into a racialized
00:40:22.088 --> 00:40:25.898
up European Christian superiority.
00:40:25.898 --> 00:40:32.338
But that Christian identity never
ceases to, to which, which is why, that,
00:40:32.488 --> 00:40:36.538
you know, when I heard this, oh, it's
white supremacy, white supremacy here,
00:40:36.958 --> 00:40:40.768
I kept saying like, no, no, no, you
are forgetting the Christian aspect.
00:40:40.768 --> 00:40:42.118
That was never gone.
00:40:42.688 --> 00:40:47.408
You know, some Jews might identify with
some of the white supremacist id, ideas,
00:40:47.448 --> 00:40:52.368
but without maybe perhaps understanding
or taking seriously that there is also
00:40:52.368 --> 00:40:54.628
this Christian, Christian, element.
00:40:54.698 --> 00:41:00.098
but, so with the enlightenment era,
you see this kind of racialization
00:41:00.128 --> 00:41:01.868
of both Jews and Black people.
00:41:01.868 --> 00:41:07.388
But the, again, the, the, the way
it emerges is Jewish inferiority
00:41:07.388 --> 00:41:12.308
emerges out of the theology, and
the idea of black inferiority
00:41:12.338 --> 00:41:17.538
emerges out of the need to justify
the enslavement of, Black Africans.
00:41:17.928 --> 00:41:23.868
so it's, it's a different motivation,
which is, which is why Jews, Jews
00:41:23.928 --> 00:41:25.848
intellect is never questioned.
00:41:26.478 --> 00:41:29.058
It's their position
that's always questioned.
00:41:29.138 --> 00:41:33.398
they are to be punished and
subjugated because they deserve it.
00:41:33.398 --> 00:41:34.988
They don't deserve to be equal.
00:41:34.988 --> 00:41:40.008
They don't deserve to be in position of
authority, and that's legally, grounded.
00:41:40.068 --> 00:41:44.908
Whereas, Black Africans were
racialized as inferior, as deserving
00:41:44.908 --> 00:41:48.118
to be enslaved because they're
in, intellectually inferior.
00:41:48.238 --> 00:41:56.368
And these tropes of inferiority and
rejection of both as equal deserving
00:41:56.368 --> 00:42:01.848
to be in places, a social places
where they are is, is at play,
00:42:01.848 --> 00:42:03.763
but it plays itself differently.
00:42:04.598 --> 00:42:04.958
right.
00:42:04.958 --> 00:42:10.468
That's why Jews are the sort of,
cunning, trying to get, get, control.
00:42:10.468 --> 00:42:11.788
They're smart, right?
00:42:11.788 --> 00:42:12.478
They're smart.
00:42:12.478 --> 00:42:12.898
They are.
00:42:13.108 --> 00:42:16.908
They're trying to get out of those,
those structures of inferiority
00:42:16.908 --> 00:42:18.168
that have been imposed on them.
00:42:18.573 --> 00:42:23.253
Whereas Black people are just not able,
so then Jews come to the aid and you have
00:42:23.253 --> 00:42:30.543
that trope of, George Soros, bringing
immigrants or doing, this or promoting
00:42:30.543 --> 00:42:32.463
racial justice and things like that.
00:42:32.463 --> 00:42:38.073
You have that sort of melange of these
two groups that are marginalized deemed as
00:42:38.073 --> 00:42:44.583
inferior who are trying to break through,
through these structures of, of power.
00:42:45.218 --> 00:42:48.728
Lila: So, I mean, that, that extends
the point that you were making earlier
00:42:48.728 --> 00:42:50.678
about the kind of hermeneutics of this.
00:42:50.708 --> 00:42:56.228
It, it's not about the reality of
Jews being superior or smart, or
00:42:56.498 --> 00:42:59.048
Africans being inferior or not smart.
00:42:59.048 --> 00:42:59.318
Right?
00:42:59.318 --> 00:43:01.958
It's, it's a hermeneutical tool about.
00:43:02.913 --> 00:43:09.213
Pushing forward a kind of worldview
of power and trying to protect power.
00:43:09.273 --> 00:43:09.543
Right.
00:43:09.543 --> 00:43:10.653
If, if I'm hearing correctly.
00:43:10.653 --> 00:43:15.173
So, I mean, it's interesting because I
know you talk about George Fredrickson's
00:43:15.193 --> 00:43:21.163
scholarship in, in Christian supremacy,
and he, he makes this point, in one of
00:43:21.163 --> 00:43:25.363
his books that's always stuck with me,
which is that as you get the rise of
00:43:25.363 --> 00:43:29.773
these kinds of liberal and enlightened
governments that are at least in theory
00:43:29.773 --> 00:43:35.493
not meant to be, faithful to Christianity,
but are sort of secularized, there has to
00:43:35.493 --> 00:43:39.303
be this sort of creation or the invention
of these special reasons for exclusion.
00:43:39.423 --> 00:43:43.323
And this is the sort of like
engulfment or, or transposition
00:43:43.353 --> 00:43:48.693
of these theological ideas into
law, into the power of the state.
00:43:48.693 --> 00:43:52.833
And so my, my question to you as
we're sort of starting to, to think
00:43:52.833 --> 00:43:56.713
about, where this conversation leaves
us and, and what we learn from it.
00:43:57.208 --> 00:44:00.248
It's probably an unfair question,
because we're all historians,
00:44:00.248 --> 00:44:01.898
but we have to do this anyway.
00:44:02.268 --> 00:44:07.218
we're living in a moment when there
seems to be indication that Christianity
00:44:07.218 --> 00:44:12.768
is gaining new public prominence,
that it's not just sort of engulfed
00:44:12.768 --> 00:44:17.418
by those secular structures of the
state or denuded in certain ways,
00:44:17.418 --> 00:44:19.098
but it is sort of loud and proud.
00:44:19.098 --> 00:44:19.488
Right.
00:44:19.698 --> 00:44:24.918
And I'm curious, given the history that
you have studied and your expertise,
00:44:25.278 --> 00:44:30.918
how, how you respond to that moment
when it appears as if more elected
00:44:30.918 --> 00:44:35.928
officials, more people in the public
realm are not interested even in
00:44:35.928 --> 00:44:38.118
the pretense of that separation.
00:44:38.448 --> 00:44:42.948
should that change anything in terms of
how we're thinking about what the future
00:44:42.948 --> 00:44:46.338
might be when it comes to anti-Black
racism, when it comes to anti-Semitism?
00:44:46.818 --> 00:44:50.688
Or is it just sort of saying out
loud what has always been the case?
00:44:51.688 --> 00:44:56.338
Magda: You know, it's, it's
interesting because I finished the
00:44:56.338 --> 00:45:05.008
book, Christian Supremacy on the
inauguration day of Joe Biden in 2021.
00:45:06.178 --> 00:45:11.188
And, it took a while for it to go through
the press for, all kinds of reasons.
00:45:11.698 --> 00:45:16.768
But, but then I was like, okay,
whatever, it's gone, came out in 2023
00:45:18.118 --> 00:45:22.458
and suddenly I think my argument kind of.
00:45:22.838 --> 00:45:30.678
Holds that these, dynamics continue
and, in, in ways that they've never,
00:45:31.218 --> 00:45:32.988
they, they haven't disappeared.
00:45:33.018 --> 00:45:38.848
That, that, resistance to,
to, to change and to liberals.
00:45:38.848 --> 00:45:42.088
And liberals was really pushing
back against that, right?
00:45:42.088 --> 00:45:44.518
This was a radical idea
that people were equal.
00:45:44.608 --> 00:45:49.468
We know it was, it took time
before this was implemented in law.
00:45:49.498 --> 00:45:55.528
But when you have literally millennia
in case of Jews and hundreds of
00:45:55.528 --> 00:46:01.318
years in terms of, in case of, Black
Americans, being not just thought
00:46:01.348 --> 00:46:08.668
about as inferior, but actually living
within legal structures of inferiority,
00:46:09.268 --> 00:46:14.158
it's very radical to now claim that
they, they belong to the equal.
00:46:14.543 --> 00:46:18.523
to be equals and that
backlash, continued, right?
00:46:18.523 --> 00:46:22.753
And, and, and I think that the sort
of the rise of liberal democracies
00:46:22.753 --> 00:46:25.033
was like, okay, well we're done.
00:46:25.183 --> 00:46:32.503
Our job is done, but these forces of
backlash never kind of stopped working
00:46:32.503 --> 00:46:38.233
against those, what we might consider,
and I'm unapologetic about, liberal
00:46:38.233 --> 00:46:44.563
democracy, even if it may not be a
perfect, system in that, in, in that way.
00:46:45.223 --> 00:46:52.293
so, so I think where we now are is
that these, these, fissures and those
00:46:52.323 --> 00:46:56.523
groups who are ideologically aligned,
who had been ideologically aligned,
00:46:57.093 --> 00:47:00.033
are coming again to the, to the fore.
00:47:00.033 --> 00:47:03.153
I don't know whether it's just
one of those waves as they
00:47:03.153 --> 00:47:05.318
weave in and weave back, out.
00:47:05.318 --> 00:47:05.918
I don't know.
00:47:06.401 --> 00:47:11.381
What the book Blood Libel actually taught
me, and that left me very depressed.
00:47:11.481 --> 00:47:17.961
but I think it also helps explain these,
these proponents of, of liberal democracy
00:47:17.961 --> 00:47:23.031
versus proponents of that supremacy,
right, of that particular supremacy.
00:47:23.031 --> 00:47:25.131
I mean, we can talk about
different supremacies.
00:47:25.131 --> 00:47:30.411
I think it's actually good, analytical
tool to think about power and supremacy
00:47:30.411 --> 00:47:35.931
as an an analytical category will allow
you to be much more, I think, historical.
00:47:36.311 --> 00:47:38.651
and it can translate to other things.
00:47:39.091 --> 00:47:44.431
but, but that in Blood Libel, I, I
conclude that people essentially are
00:47:44.971 --> 00:47:49.351
reading, they live in these epistemic
communities where they're reading,
00:47:49.661 --> 00:47:54.521
what they agree with and they reject
what they disagree with, which kind
00:47:54.521 --> 00:47:59.291
of resonates with our echo chamber
world of media and social media that
00:47:59.351 --> 00:48:01.691
we are not listening to other views.
00:48:02.291 --> 00:48:06.461
and, and therefore they're kind of
perpetuating or creating and perpetuating
00:48:06.461 --> 00:48:08.591
these co these epistemic communities.
00:48:09.311 --> 00:48:14.381
And at some level you see it in, in
the, in the Christian Supremacy book
00:48:14.381 --> 00:48:20.291
because they are these two voices,
those proponent liberal democracy, and
00:48:20.291 --> 00:48:25.031
they are also living in their own kind
of epistemic communities and promoting
00:48:25.031 --> 00:48:29.831
and, arguing for, for equality and
human rights, equal rights, and so on.
00:48:30.291 --> 00:48:35.571
but also the, the, the forces that are
protecting that supremacy and they live
00:48:35.571 --> 00:48:37.688
in their own sort of epistemic world.
00:48:37.688 --> 00:48:42.848
They write, they create, they, they
continue and that's where we are, right?
00:48:42.848 --> 00:48:46.298
The legal history in the United States,
you read those cases and there are
00:48:46.298 --> 00:48:51.768
these voices that are side by side,
and they resonate today to us because.
00:48:52.518 --> 00:48:56.658
These ideas still continue to work
there because we haven't worked
00:48:56.658 --> 00:48:58.938
out some of these questions.
00:48:58.998 --> 00:49:02.388
I think on the deeper level,
which is why I end, we need to
00:49:02.388 --> 00:49:06.468
talk about this, the, the, this
history has to be dealt with, so.
00:49:07.468 --> 00:49:10.528
Avi: Yeah, no, I think, I think you
raise, I mean the, the, there are all
00:49:10.528 --> 00:49:14.008
these fascinating points that you raised
through in this through line, through the
00:49:14.008 --> 00:49:17.343
different, through the different projects,
but you also point to the value of.
00:49:18.148 --> 00:49:24.208
Taking this sort of longer perspective
on history and understanding that
00:49:24.568 --> 00:49:28.018
while we might be operating under
the illusion that sort of we're in
00:49:28.018 --> 00:49:32.408
2025 and that, we're in this specific
moment in time, that we're, we're part
00:49:32.408 --> 00:49:37.688
of a much longer stretch of sort of
structures of thought, modes of thought.
00:49:37.988 --> 00:49:42.218
And that if you do zoom out and look
over the course of millennia, you can
00:49:42.218 --> 00:49:45.458
see how difficult it can be to change.
00:49:45.758 --> 00:49:48.968
Not that it's impossible, but that
there are these powerful forces
00:49:48.968 --> 00:49:52.328
that make it difficult to change
these structures and these, and
00:49:52.328 --> 00:49:54.038
these modes, these modes of thought.
00:49:54.388 --> 00:49:57.178
and I, and I'll say one of the other
things that's really so fascinating
00:49:57.178 --> 00:50:01.538
that you point to is that, both in
Blood Libel where you, where you look
00:50:01.538 --> 00:50:06.518
at sort of how new technologies can be
used, not just to spread information,
00:50:06.518 --> 00:50:08.228
but to spread misinformation.
00:50:08.558 --> 00:50:11.258
And when you're pointing to this
present moment where again, we have
00:50:11.258 --> 00:50:15.308
this illusion of, oh, new technology,
it's gonna be an information age.
00:50:15.648 --> 00:50:19.728
And yet maybe we shouldn't be surprised
that it's a disinformation age.
00:50:19.728 --> 00:50:20.028
Right.
00:50:20.028 --> 00:50:23.988
And that you point out like that's
not necessarily a new thing.
00:50:24.398 --> 00:50:27.578
so, but it's important to
take that longer perspective.
00:50:28.578 --> 00:50:34.988
Lila: So when we end these podcasts,
we sort of throw back our motif at
00:50:35.108 --> 00:50:36.398
the guests that we've invited on.
00:50:36.398 --> 00:50:39.128
So Avi and I sort of sit around
thinking like, what are our big
00:50:39.128 --> 00:50:44.168
questions about this sort of crazy
topic now of antisemitism and how to
00:50:44.168 --> 00:50:45.878
understand it and who can help us.
00:50:45.928 --> 00:50:51.778
and you certainly has have helped us think
about the role of Christianity in creating
00:50:51.778 --> 00:50:56.458
these kinds of hermeneutics and as you
say, these sort of epistemic communities.
00:50:56.758 --> 00:51:01.288
but we're curious what your big,
sort of Jewish question is right now.
00:51:01.288 --> 00:51:05.638
Like what, what is propelling you either
as a scholar or a professor, or a human
00:51:05.638 --> 00:51:11.338
being, to, to kind of think about some
of these big questions about Jewishness,
00:51:11.438 --> 00:51:13.148
in, in your work, in your world?
00:51:13.928 --> 00:51:16.958
Magda: one of the things that
I've been really thinking
00:51:16.958 --> 00:51:21.368
about since October 7th, was.
00:51:21.663 --> 00:51:25.143
I wrote a short piece about
it, for the public seminar.
00:51:25.143 --> 00:51:31.163
And that then, came longer and
more, revised in the JTA was that
00:51:31.253 --> 00:51:36.593
about our role as historians of
antisemitism that we actually failed.
00:51:37.793 --> 00:51:45.363
And I say that we failed, is that for
about a hundred years now, when you
00:51:45.363 --> 00:51:51.763
look back at maybe, at, the earnest
1930s, historians of antisemitism have
00:51:51.763 --> 00:51:58.363
focused on the antisemites and trying
to study, analyze, explain, dissect anti
00:51:58.453 --> 00:52:04.843
antisemites, their thought, they, their
ideas and what has been really missing.
00:52:04.963 --> 00:52:09.793
And I think to me, it came very
clear after October 7th and the
00:52:09.793 --> 00:52:13.283
kind of automatic, lack of empathy.
00:52:13.683 --> 00:52:17.543
for those who suffered violence
on that day, the various Kibbutzim
00:52:17.563 --> 00:52:23.183
in Israel, that it was always
explained, it's, in this case it was
00:52:23.183 --> 00:52:28.013
explained because they deserved it,
because Israel of Israel's actions.
00:52:28.043 --> 00:52:33.923
And it made me think about why there's
this automatic reaction about that Jews
00:52:33.923 --> 00:52:36.923
deserve to be in a certain position.
00:52:37.473 --> 00:52:42.093
and one of the thing that is missing,
and again, this sort of thinking and
00:52:42.093 --> 00:52:49.278
writing and teaching about, anti-Black
racism made me realize that we as
00:52:49.278 --> 00:52:54.478
scholars of antisemitism, focus on
antisemites, scholars of racism, never
00:52:54.478 --> 00:52:59.208
lose sight of the victims of racism,
of how racism impacts what we have
00:52:59.208 --> 00:53:01.668
not done as scholars of antisemitism.
00:53:02.163 --> 00:53:08.043
Is focused on Jews as people on
the receiving end of these ideas.
00:53:08.043 --> 00:53:09.603
And what happens in that way?
00:53:10.053 --> 00:53:14.753
So the earlier, the book on law
kind of gestures to it because law
00:53:14.753 --> 00:53:17.343
has legal, has social implications.
00:53:17.933 --> 00:53:23.543
but my book that just came out a couple
of months ago, on also Blood Libels
00:53:23.543 --> 00:53:29.033
and Hostile Archives is trying to
retrieve the experience of Jews in these
00:53:29.033 --> 00:53:33.323
moments, the lives of Jews, rather than
the narratives of the blood libels.
00:53:33.473 --> 00:53:37.343
And I think we need to, as scholars of
antisemitism, I think we need to do a
00:53:37.343 --> 00:53:43.733
little bit more of that, of integrating
and of not separating Jewish experience
00:53:43.733 --> 00:53:46.793
to Jewish history and antisemitism.
00:53:47.123 --> 00:53:52.393
To a different thing, but these two
have to be integrated into that story.
00:53:52.793 --> 00:53:54.143
I think it's quite effective.
00:53:54.143 --> 00:53:56.093
I've tried it in the classroom.
00:53:57.233 --> 00:54:02.303
And the other thing is that I've been
thinking about, obviously what we're
00:54:02.573 --> 00:54:07.948
thinking about in terms of the, the
situation anti-Zionism and the connection
00:54:07.948 --> 00:54:09.808
with anti-Zionism, antisemitism.
00:54:10.468 --> 00:54:15.288
But I take a longer lens and
I'm, I'm thinking about the role,
00:54:15.304 --> 00:54:22.254
theology, the question of the
Jewish exile as punishment, plays in
00:54:22.254 --> 00:54:26.944
this sort of special, reaction to,
00:54:27.064 --> 00:54:31.594
Israeli policies that maybe other
countries are not getting as much, as
00:54:31.594 --> 00:54:33.694
much flack, emotional flack as this.
00:54:34.024 --> 00:54:40.404
So I'm thinking about those things, about
the kind of the theological discourse.
00:54:40.554 --> 00:54:46.924
Again, that's millennia long and
and I think it has an impact on,
00:54:46.994 --> 00:54:51.894
people, even people who seem to
be really, removed from theology.
00:54:51.894 --> 00:54:56.914
when I have students who know nothing
about when I have them, what comes
00:54:56.914 --> 00:54:59.434
to mind when you think about days?
00:54:59.434 --> 00:55:03.814
And they say law and rules, even though
they know, don't know anything else,
00:55:03.814 --> 00:55:08.254
but when they think about Christianity,
it's faith, it's love, right?
00:55:08.254 --> 00:55:14.044
These are deeply embedded ideas
that are not just bookish ideas that
00:55:14.044 --> 00:55:16.204
are kind of cultural constructions.
00:55:16.564 --> 00:55:19.954
So I am sort of thinking
and trying to work.
00:55:20.544 --> 00:55:22.494
through, in my future research.
00:55:23.494 --> 00:55:28.114
Avi: Well, I think you've just pointed out
two topics for us for future conversation.
00:55:28.164 --> 00:55:32.934
one is on sort of the Jewish responses
and the impact that, persecution and
00:55:32.934 --> 00:55:36.804
hate can have on Jews and how Jews
respond to it, which really resonates
00:55:36.804 --> 00:55:39.764
with me in terms of the type of work
that I do in the field of Holocaust
00:55:39.764 --> 00:55:43.634
studies, which is very much focused on
how Jews respond to persecution, but
00:55:43.634 --> 00:55:45.554
also thinking on the longer term impact.
00:55:46.084 --> 00:55:49.804
And this other project that you've just
mentioned, which is to think about sort
00:55:49.804 --> 00:55:55.344
of the idea of Jewish exile and notions
of Jewish exile and how and Jews living
00:55:55.344 --> 00:55:59.604
in dispersion and diaspora and how
that might affect thinking about Israel
00:55:59.604 --> 00:56:01.014
and the place of the Jew in the world.
00:56:01.014 --> 00:56:05.364
Anyway, two really interesting
questions and projects for us.
00:56:05.364 --> 00:56:09.594
I think Lila, a future episode,
which will be, this conversation
00:56:09.594 --> 00:56:13.254
continued with Magda, but this has
really been fascinating, so thank you.
00:56:14.064 --> 00:56:15.324
Magda: Thank you so much for having me.
00:56:16.929 --> 00:56:18.009
Avi: Thanks for tuning in.
00:56:18.099 --> 00:56:21.729
This was a production of the NYU
Center for the Study of Antisemitism.
00:56:21.774 --> 00:56:23.619
Your presenters were Avinoam Patt
00:56:23.638 --> 00:56:24.518
Lila: and Lila Berman.
00:56:24.548 --> 00:56:27.528
Your producers were William
Pimlott and Caitlyn Madara,
00:56:27.551 --> 00:56:30.491
Avi: and production provided
by Bivins Brothers Creative.