Curiosity Is a Leadership Skill, Not a Personality Trait

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If you ask many leaders, they know everything.
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Oh yes they do.
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They are experts in all of it.
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Masters of none.
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Correct.
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We have found that great leaders are curious and ask for help.
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Oh my gosh! Clutch my pearls! Perish the thought.
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Oh my goodness.
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This week we are talking about how you can use curiosity as a leadership skill.
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And if you aren't, you really need to be curious about this episode.
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Stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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I remember a time when I first got into leadership and the like.
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The people supporting me, the leaders above me We're the most like, untrusting, accusatory, like.
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And so yeah, for me, like as the leader, I had zero curiosity because I had to know everything.
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Yes.
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Because the people above me assumed that they knew everything.
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Mhm.
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And the downward just pressure on that.
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Oh, yeah.
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Was ridiculous.
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Um, therefore, my employees had to know everything also.
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Yes.
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And at that point, we had a business of a bunch of know it alls who knew absolutely nothing.
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Oh, that's not fun.
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No, it was, it was, uh, I got like to tell you how ridiculous this place was.
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I got yelled at once.
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I was on my way back to my desk.
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Um, they're like, come into our office real quick.
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And I'm like, oh, what, what?
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And they're like, if you're going to go to the bathroom, you need to walk with authority.
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Josh.
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Walk with intention.
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Excuse me.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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I didn't walk to the bathroom with as much.
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With enough intention.
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Intentional urination.
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Right.
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Well, it was intentional urination because I waited until I got to the bathroom.
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Even though I very much thought about doing it in their office is, uh.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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These are the stories that I love telling because once again, and I know you see you, you see things from a different lens coming in on the clarity HR side, um, you get a different perspective on it, but you having worked primarily in one place through.
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Yeah.
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And my career being scattered all over the place.
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I have a sample size.
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I have a large sample size.
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You do, you do.
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And I think some of these things for me is I get to observe a lot, but then I also have deep appreciation for what, what we have really worked on building.
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Yes, it's not perfect, but there are moments where we have conversations.
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I'm like, I, I don't have that frame of reference.
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No, no, no, I'm really glad.
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I don't know.
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I, I am very glad you do not.
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Also, um, those were some stressful, stressful times.
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Yeah.
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Um, yeah, it was interesting because like, if you're going to get yelled at for not walking to the bathroom fast enough, that's not okay.
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Like what else?
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What else?
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I mean, you just knew that no matter what you did.
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Yeah.
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You're always wrong.
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You're always wrong.
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And, uh, they were not curious about anything because they were always right.
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Yeah.
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Or people are just defensive.
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You get feedback and someone's immediately, oh my gosh, yes, yes.
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And it's just terrible, terrible, terrible environment to exist in.
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Mhm.
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Unless you're that owner and you, I mean, it's still terrible, but they just, they, they seem to find their groove with that, with that.
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I mean, so many especially, especially founders.
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Yeah.
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Many in leadership, they default to that defensive posture.
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They, they or they just want that ironclad control.
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Yeah.
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Um, when bad news hits the desk or the fan.
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Whether the bad news is the desk or the fan.
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Bad news?
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They're just.
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They freak out.
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Yeah.
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So from that HR visionary standpoint of it, like, how does that lack of leadership curiosity lead to the catastrophizing and just destroy the safety of the team?
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Did I, did I, did I ask that dramatically enough?
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I think you really did.
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And I think we can define curiosity first as like what we're looking for is when instead of things being it happens and someone is reacting immediately, we're asking questions.
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We're not asking questions as an interrogation.
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We're just asking questions.
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It's a help me understand.
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I think that curiosity is truly a leadership skill.
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It is not a personality trait.
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I think sometimes people are like, oh, that's just your personality.
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No, trust me, it is not.
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I had to build this as a skill.
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So I think when the bad news hits, a lot of founders do not respond to the facts.
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First, they respond to fear.
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It's that immediate gut reaction.
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Yes, one thing goes wrong and immediately your brain is saying, we are going to lose the client.
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No one cares.
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No one is taking this issue seriously.
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I'm the only person that loves this business.
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I'm the only one who sees the problem.
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Me me me me me me me me me.
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And then, of course, I'm going to be homeless.
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We're going to lose everything.
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I can't believe this is.
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I mean, and suddenly that mistake turns into a full documentary about how the business is falling apart.
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And that is not curiosity.
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That is catastrophizing.
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And listen, every business owner has that moment.
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Sometimes you have those moments like once a week or once a day.
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I mean, catastrophizing is just part of being an entrepreneur.
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You're going to do it.
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The issue is not having the thoughts.
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The issue is when you lead from it.
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Oh that's terrible.
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When we lead from catastrophe instead of curiosity.
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So I've got to go back to something real quick.
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As soon as you said full documentary.
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Yes, I started in my head narrating your business like David Attenborough.
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Yes, yes.
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We come to the conference room, right?
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Right where we see the owner watching the unsuspecting employee.
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Right.
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Right.
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So we combat catastrophizing.
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We combat having that documentary by building our resilience, right?
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So the framework for this episode and how to navigate and build curiosity is building our resilience skills.
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And we do that through regulate, reflect and respond.
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So we've got three R's.
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We are not a pirate today.
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We are not doing C's.
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We're in R's.
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I don't want to be a pirate.
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Well too bad.
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So regulate reflect, respond.
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So regulate before you react.
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So we do not let our first emotional surge become everyone else's emergency.
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And we've talked a little about this.
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When we cover transparency a tiny bit.
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Don't transfer your anxiety to your employees.
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Right.
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Regulate yourself.
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Don't transfer your anxiety to your employees.
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Move through your own emotions first and ride that wave before you open your mouth.
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Before.
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Before.
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Oh. Go through the emotions first.
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Then you can open your mouth.
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So regulate.
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Next is reflect before you decide.
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So ask yourself questions.
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This is where your curiosity is really important.
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You know what actually happened.
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And ask yourself in that type of tone, not what actually happened, what actually happened, right?
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Don't, don't ask it like your mother.
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Don't ask.
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That would not be my mother.
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She listens to this podcast.
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So my mother asked, what happened here?
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Happened here?
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No. What do we know?
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What don't we know?
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Is this a people issue?
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Is it a process issue?
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Is this a communication issue?
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What type of issue is this?
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Or am or or am or am I just triggered because it feels personal?
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Ooh, that's the that's the tough one to get over is this communication.
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Is this people is this a systems issue or is this just because, you know, they triggered me because they did the thing that just makes me lose my ever loving mind.
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Yeah.
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And that's that's it.
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So and then as you figure some of that out, that's the data gathering exercise.
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That's where you're going to be curious.
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And then you're going to respond that third R with clarity instead of control.
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All right.
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So when leaders skip those steps psychological safety disappears.
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Employees learn not to bring you bad news.
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Early employees learn not to bring you bad news.
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Period.
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Period.
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They just yes, they stop admitting uncertainty and they stop asking those clarifying questions.
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They're hiding the issues until everything gets too big to be ignored.
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They are shoving it under their bed like you did in junior high until your mom was like, your room looks clean.
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And then they look under your bed and you're like, your whole room is underneath mine went in the closet.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Both.
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I mean, and so when we talk about this, we know that curiosity interrupts.
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It destroys that catastrophizing.
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Yes.
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So instead of asking who let this happen, curious leaders are going to ask, what do we need to understand before we decide what happened?
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And that one shift Yes, keep that standard high, but it lowers the threat.
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Oh the threat the the threat is the big piece there.
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Absolutely.
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Like this should not feel threatening.
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Know we've talked about the curiosity over ego before because it is it's it's a thing to put aside.
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You really hit it when you said this feels personal, especially if you're the founder.
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When someone screws up in your business, you're like, they're attacking me.
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Yeah, they're taking my baby.
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Right?
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Trying to shank it.
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Right, right.
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Yeah.
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They're they're honestly not no.
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Like they really aren't.
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So to me, like the curiosity over ego, like non-negotiable state for healthy cultures, how does a leader like cultivate that culture where employees feel safe enough, where they can bring the bad news early rather than like, once again, shoving all the bad news in the closet until eventually you see the closet door bulging, bulging open?
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Yeah.
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Well, I think that the story that leaders tell themselves sometimes is that leaders are the people that they work with.
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Love, chaos.
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No, no. People do not hide mistakes because they love chaos.
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They don't know.
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They hide mistakes because they're calculating the cost of what that honesty is.
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Ding ding ding.
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Exactly.
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So in some workplaces, honesty is expensive.
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Oh, that's a great way to put it.
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Yeah.
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Because if every if some every time someone brings forward a problem, they get blamed, they get embarrassed, they get drug into an office for a dramatic lecture.
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They get told that they need to walk with more intention as they're going to the bathroom.
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They learn really quickly that I'm not going to talk to anybody.
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I'm going to say a word.
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Silence is safer.
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Yes.
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Right.
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And that's not a character flaw.
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That's a culture lesson.
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So if leaders want employees to bring them bad news early, they have to prove that the truth is survivable, that it's not going to kill that employee.
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They're not going to be miserable by telling them the truth.
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So before some of you freak out because I know you're going to and you're going to say that I'm allowing organizations to have no standards or consequences.
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That's not true.
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That's not what I'm saying.
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Calm down.
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All right.
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Some of you might be brilliant jerks, because sometimes in our Facebook, we get these comments about like, oh, you just don't believe in standards.
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No, I believe in a lot of standards.
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Okay.
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I am not saying that that that needs to happen.
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I'm also not saying that we need to celebrate mistakes like their wins.
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Okay?
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We're not going to throw a party.
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Every time somebody makes a mistake, we're going to talk about it.
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All right?
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We are running a business.
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Don't be dumb.
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So I simply mean the first response that you have to someone when they bring you a problem or an issue cannot be punishment.
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The first response has to be curiosity.
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Yes.
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That's it.
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What happened?
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What do we know?
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What don't we know?
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What's the next right step?
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Those questions and again, set it in the last question.
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Tone is important.
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Help me understand how this went where it did.
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You may be in your mind.
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You may have a lot of words.
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Hold those in.
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That's why we regulate first, right?
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So leaders, you have to use the right tone.
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And the fewer adjectives the better.
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Yes.
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We do not treat this like an interrogation.
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We do not treat this like a deposition.
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All right.
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You are not going to get what you want if you do those things.
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When you use regulate, reflect and respond proper tone, you get dialogue.
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So that's how you get that curiosity over ego.
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Ego wants to be right.
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Curiosity wants to get it right.
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Well put, well put.
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I think it's funny when you say do not treat this like a deposition or interrogation.
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To me, like every deposition, I do not recall, I don't remember.
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You really want me to do.
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Yeah.
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I do not recall.
00:14:17.993 --> 00:14:19.926
If you need me to have certainty.
00:14:19.926 --> 00:14:25.926
We've had this conversation in in our family because we have someone in our house that absolutely wants certainty.
00:14:25.926 --> 00:14:30.160
Well, if you want certainty, one hundred percent, the only thing I can give you, Josh, is uncertainty.
00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:36.893
So you are always going to go, I think I did, I'm not sure if and then that person gets really frustrated because it's it's never a straight answer.
00:14:36.893 --> 00:14:38.326
I'm like, because that's what you've demanded.
00:14:38.326 --> 00:14:39.493
Because you want certainty.
00:14:39.493 --> 00:14:42.493
To have certainty is to have uncertainty.
00:14:42.493 --> 00:14:47.826
So I would say to something else that I would say, when you talk about ego wants to be right, curiosity wants to get it right.
00:14:47.826 --> 00:14:52.460
I would say that when if a leader practices ego, their team is practicing protection.
00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:52.960
Yep.
00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:57.460
And if the leader practices curiosity, the team practices honesty.
00:14:57.460 --> 00:14:58.793
So think about it that way.
00:14:58.793 --> 00:14:59.192
Yes.
00:14:59.192 --> 00:15:01.126
You want you want honesty.
00:15:01.126 --> 00:15:02.926
You got to practice curiosity.
00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:09.526
It truly is the the, the right way to look at that.
00:15:09.526 --> 00:15:27.326
But how do you model that curiosity like, let's say during an interpersonal conflict or let's say performance reviews, where like the employee wants to see this feedback as an investment in their growth rather than an attack on their identity.
00:15:27.326 --> 00:15:33.192
Because let's face it, sometimes we've talked about how you and I both like one, two, three.
00:15:33.192 --> 00:15:37.493
If you got to give someone a one, you need to approach that one with some curiosity.
00:15:37.493 --> 00:15:38.493
Yes.
00:15:38.493 --> 00:15:40.126
How do you how do you do that?
00:15:40.126 --> 00:15:42.725
So we tie feedback to behavior.
00:15:42.725 --> 00:15:47.126
So the what the action not the who or their identity.
00:15:47.126 --> 00:15:47.626
Right.
00:15:47.626 --> 00:15:49.259
So we tie it to behavior.
00:15:49.259 --> 00:15:56.360
So I think one of the simplest phrases a leader can use when someone brings something up is saying, thank you for bringing this up early.
00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:01.293
Because what that tells the individual is that you are not in trouble for telling the truth, right?
00:16:01.293 --> 00:16:04.493
Yeah, you could be in trouble for screwing it up, but you're not in trouble for telling me.
00:16:04.493 --> 00:16:08.460
Yeah, because feedback gets messy when leaders make it about identity instead of behavior.
00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:10.493
So here's what I will say to you.
00:16:10.493 --> 00:16:13.326
And this is something that we've talked about a lot in clarity.
00:16:13.326 --> 00:16:18.259
And we talk about too in our family because sometimes, you know, business, family, it all kind of meshes together.
00:16:18.259 --> 00:16:22.626
There is a huge difference between tying things to a behavior and tying things to identity.
00:16:22.626 --> 00:16:34.826
So if you say you're careless, you are immediately assaulting that person's identity and character as opposed to saying, you know, the report that you gave me had ten mistakes and we had to rework it.
00:16:34.826 --> 00:16:38.093
So I mean, one attacks the person, the other addresses the work.
00:16:38.093 --> 00:16:43.993
So curiosity, when we really use that as a leadership skill, it separates identity from performance.
00:16:43.993 --> 00:16:48.960
So and that matters because if someone feels attacked they are naturally going to defend.
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:59.626
And so when I deal with managers, not in my company, but in other companies, because my managers are really good at doing this, um, they're like I said this and then all of a sudden this person got so defensive.
00:16:59.626 --> 00:17:01.893
I'm like, how did you say it?
00:17:01.893 --> 00:17:03.259
I told them they're unreliable.
00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:11.625
I'm like, when you tell someone they're unreliable, you are naturally going to get a defense because they're going to give you all of the times that they are reliable.
00:17:11.625 --> 00:17:19.292
And I realize that by definition, they may be unreliable, but you've got to say, you know, over the last six weeks, you've been late four times.
00:17:19.292 --> 00:17:22.292
That makes it difficult for us to make sure that we can get things done on time.
00:17:22.292 --> 00:17:24.826
Like that's you can't just say you're unreliable.
00:17:24.826 --> 00:17:34.725
I mean, the other thing I would say too, when you're reviewing conversations, you have to make sure that you walk in regulated, right?
00:17:34.725 --> 00:17:38.992
I mean, I talk about being regulated again, so do not walk into a meeting hot.
00:17:38.992 --> 00:17:43.859
We do not unload six weeks of performance frustration in one meeting.
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:47.925
Don't make the employee pay interest on every conversation you didn't have.
00:17:49.625 --> 00:17:52.359
I have been there so many times.
00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:53.026
We're regulating.
00:17:53.026 --> 00:17:57.660
Then we're going to reflect and we're going to ask ourselves as we're being curious, what's the actual issue here?
00:17:57.660 --> 00:18:04.160
Because often when something has built up over time, the the problem is not the problem.
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:04.526
Correct?
00:18:04.526 --> 00:18:10.925
The problem is five, ten, fifteen, five thousand other things that have made this one.
00:18:10.925 --> 00:18:12.225
The explosion.
00:18:12.225 --> 00:18:12.559
All right.
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:13.559
So you got to think about that.
00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:14.625
And then you're going to respond.
00:18:14.625 --> 00:18:18.326
And the curious might hear me say, you know, I want to talk about a pattern I'm seeing.
00:18:18.326 --> 00:18:23.326
That's a great way to bring something up as opposed to saying you are blank.
00:18:23.326 --> 00:18:25.192
I'd like to talk about a pattern.
00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:30.960
The last three client updates that you were assigned went out late.
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.059
We need timeliness to be something that you focus on.
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:40.759
There is a difference between you're an idiot and you've done poorly on the last four things.
00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:41.960
Exactly.
00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:42.326
Yeah.
00:18:42.326 --> 00:18:48.960
And when you give people an explanation, when you give them context, we've talked about this I think in our episode on feedback.
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:53.960
It's really easy for them to understand where they need to go, as opposed to just looking at somebody saying, you need to be more proactive.
00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:58.492
Like that's tell me how you got to be.
00:18:58.492 --> 00:19:00.360
You got to give them the information.
00:19:00.360 --> 00:19:09.526
So, you know, curiosity forces clarity because I think that when we talk about like, be more proactive, it's often code for I'm frustrated, but I haven't clearly defined the behavior.
00:19:09.526 --> 00:19:16.992
So you've got to be able to define the behavior, which again, if you don't know what you're trying to coach around, this is really where curiosity is important.
00:19:16.992 --> 00:19:21.160
Like you've got to be able to diagnose it and be able to, you know, what exactly needs to change?
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:22.160
What does good look like?
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:23.093
What support is needed?
00:19:23.093 --> 00:19:25.860
Those are questions that you can ask and continue to be curious.
00:19:25.860 --> 00:19:35.860
I mean, and for those of you who don't believe in feedback, I will tell you giving feedback the proper way, it becomes an investment, not because it's soft, but because it's specific.
00:19:35.860 --> 00:19:36.293
Yes.
00:19:36.293 --> 00:19:47.526
And for those of you who want more resources and don't aren't good at these conversations, I would encourage you to go back to some of our other episodes, like the sweaty ten minute conversation, the employee review episode, maybe our resilience episode.
00:19:47.526 --> 00:19:50.160
I mean, it's kind of something we talk about a lot.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:52.460
We, we have a whole library of this.
00:19:52.460 --> 00:19:53.360
We do.
00:19:53.360 --> 00:19:54.526
There's a theme to our.
00:19:54.526 --> 00:19:56.326
There truly is a theme to our podcast.
00:19:56.326 --> 00:19:57.125
There is.
00:19:57.125 --> 00:20:01.492
We talk about a lot of different subjects, but they all kind of center around this, this theme.
00:20:01.492 --> 00:20:01.893
Yes.
00:20:01.893 --> 00:20:09.460
About how to be a good leader, how clarity, consistency and care, how not to be a jerk and get people to do stuff for you.
00:20:09.460 --> 00:20:09.692
Yeah.
00:20:09.692 --> 00:20:16.759
So as we're talking about curiosity, I think it's really easy for visionaries to say to people, you know, be curious.
00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:18.293
Be curious.
00:20:18.293 --> 00:20:20.125
What should I do in my in my role?
00:20:20.125 --> 00:20:21.160
I need you to be curious.
00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:21.460
Yeah.
00:20:21.460 --> 00:20:22.425
That's great.
00:20:22.425 --> 00:20:23.460
Thanks, Chrissy.
00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:28.059
Um, but when deadlines are crashing, the CEO is asking questions.
00:20:28.059 --> 00:20:29.726
Curiosity feels like a luxury.
00:20:29.726 --> 00:20:30.360
It does.
00:20:30.360 --> 00:20:31.059
It's like, really?
00:20:31.059 --> 00:20:32.793
I need time to be freaking curious.
00:20:32.793 --> 00:20:34.293
How so?
00:20:34.293 --> 00:20:40.526
How does an operator make time for that diagnostic curiosity without slowing down execution?
00:20:40.526 --> 00:20:42.425
That is the balancing act.
00:20:42.425 --> 00:20:53.226
Because the problem is too is operators we like, as soon as you say, here's where I need to go and you say go, I just want to execute one hundred percent.
00:20:53.226 --> 00:20:54.826
Like, let's go, let's go, let's go.
00:20:54.826 --> 00:21:01.793
I mean, like, and this is where the good operators take that time to have that plan to have that.
00:21:01.793 --> 00:21:08.960
Okay, let's sit back like the best operations people I know are typically very, very, very calm.
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:13.160
And you can tell them the sky is falling and they'll look first.
00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:14.593
Yeah.
00:21:14.593 --> 00:21:19.860
Um, so to me, there's, there's the five whys operational audit.
00:21:19.860 --> 00:21:27.593
So when the, as I like to say, when the fan needs a pressure washing because the someone threw a large bucket of poo at it.
00:21:27.593 --> 00:21:28.393
Yes.
00:21:28.393 --> 00:21:30.293
Lazy management will stop it.
00:21:30.293 --> 00:21:31.526
Bob screwed up.
00:21:31.526 --> 00:21:40.093
Um, I want you to go to assume Bob is working within the system that you, the leader, have provided to, said Bob.
00:21:40.093 --> 00:21:42.593
Oh, that sounds very ouchy.
00:21:42.593 --> 00:21:43.793
It is.
00:21:43.793 --> 00:21:44.893
It is.
00:21:44.893 --> 00:21:50.425
This is what's funny is, is we find that so much of leadership is looking in a mirror.
00:21:50.425 --> 00:21:50.992
Yeah.
00:21:50.992 --> 00:21:57.026
Um, so like, first off, like I, I call this the toddler method.
00:21:57.026 --> 00:22:06.192
You being a parent to two children, you went through the why, why, why at varying yes times in their lives, right?
00:22:06.192 --> 00:22:08.259
I got a teenager and a young adult.
00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:08.593
Now.
00:22:08.593 --> 00:22:09.593
Why still?
00:22:09.593 --> 00:22:09.893
Yes.
00:22:09.893 --> 00:22:10.992
Still a thing.
00:22:10.992 --> 00:22:11.393
Uh huh.
00:22:11.393 --> 00:22:12.226
Be more like.
00:22:12.226 --> 00:22:13.460
Be more like a teenager.
00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:13.692
Yeah.
00:22:13.692 --> 00:22:15.492
How often are we going to tell you to do that?
00:22:15.492 --> 00:22:17.160
Um. Why was the.
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:18.726
Why was the order on?
00:22:18.726 --> 00:22:19.860
Was the order late?
00:22:19.860 --> 00:22:22.059
Well, it's because Bob didn't ship it on time.
00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:24.093
So now I have to ask why.
00:22:24.093 --> 00:22:26.492
Why did Bob ship it on time?
00:22:26.492 --> 00:22:28.960
Because he didn't receive the handoff from sales.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:30.625
This isn't a Bob problem.
00:22:30.625 --> 00:22:32.192
This is a sales problem.
00:22:32.192 --> 00:22:34.125
Well, why was the handoff delayed?
00:22:34.125 --> 00:22:36.660
Because the CRM field wasn't mandatory.
00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:37.425
Uh oh.
00:22:37.425 --> 00:22:39.393
This is an SOP problem.
00:22:39.393 --> 00:22:42.425
So now we're actually figuring it out.
00:22:42.425 --> 00:22:44.526
Why wasn't the CRM field mandatory?
00:22:44.526 --> 00:22:46.625
Because SOP wasn't updated.
00:22:46.625 --> 00:22:48.393
Why wasn't the SOP updated?
00:22:48.393 --> 00:22:52.259
Because leadership didn't run a downstream debt check.
00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:53.793
Once again, guess what?
00:22:53.793 --> 00:22:55.460
Look in the mirror people.
00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:55.759
This.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.160
This is the type of thing that I like when I see these.
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.192
Asking the whys.
00:23:01.192 --> 00:23:05.625
The example that I always want to give to people is it's a headache.
00:23:05.625 --> 00:23:06.026
Yeah.
00:23:06.026 --> 00:23:08.192
Why are you having a headache?
00:23:08.192 --> 00:23:15.059
Because there is a big difference between I'm stressed and dehydrated and I'm having a stroke.
00:23:16.059 --> 00:23:18.160
You don't do the same things for those.
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:21.960
No. Figure out what's causing the headache.
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:24.860
Don't just try and solve for the headache.
00:23:24.860 --> 00:23:25.726
So that's.
00:23:25.726 --> 00:23:27.992
But too many people are just like, I'm popping Tylenol.
00:23:27.992 --> 00:23:29.925
I'm yelling at Bob, and I'm going about my business.
00:23:29.925 --> 00:23:30.160
Yeah.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:32.326
And Bob's been here for thirty years, so it's Bob's fault?
00:23:32.326 --> 00:23:33.593
No. Not necessarily.
00:23:33.593 --> 00:23:34.360
Bob can take it.
00:23:34.360 --> 00:23:39.726
No. Um, to me, it's once again, it's figuring out where that problem was.
00:23:39.726 --> 00:23:45.093
Now, this is the piece where you have to look at continuous improvement on this.
00:23:45.093 --> 00:23:49.160
Because if you are not curious, you're never going to get any better.
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:53.893
Um, this is where the we've always done it this way comes into play.
00:23:53.893 --> 00:23:58.593
I don't hear we've always done it this way out of curious people.
00:23:58.593 --> 00:23:59.793
I truly don't know.
00:23:59.793 --> 00:24:01.460
That's change resistant people.
00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:02.226
Correct.
00:24:02.226 --> 00:24:05.992
So as leaders we have to look to improve things every step of the way.
00:24:05.992 --> 00:24:17.925
If your operational processes aren't actively getting smoother, easier and or faster, your machines falling behind because someone on the street, they are doing this.
00:24:17.925 --> 00:24:20.360
So you need to like you need to get on this.
00:24:20.360 --> 00:24:22.992
So start asking the right questions.
00:24:22.992 --> 00:24:30.726
Stop asking the binary or passive check, checking questions like did you finish the task?
00:24:30.726 --> 00:24:36.826
This is where I'm going to go into my background on podcasting and getting people to like, ask the right questions.
00:24:36.826 --> 00:24:37.860
Oh, okay.
00:24:37.860 --> 00:24:41.726
It's the I, I, I give the same, like same thing.
00:24:41.726 --> 00:24:42.826
How's your day?
00:24:42.826 --> 00:24:45.093
You're going to get a crap answer.
00:24:45.093 --> 00:24:45.660
Yeah.
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:46.826
Fine.
00:24:46.826 --> 00:24:48.160
Or living the dream.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:48.925
The dream.
00:24:48.925 --> 00:24:50.660
Living the dream.
00:24:50.660 --> 00:24:57.226
So I want you to start asking these questions, carrying around on your phone, like on a piece of paper or whatever.
00:24:57.226 --> 00:25:01.059
Um, what is currently getting in the way of you doing your job cleanly?
00:25:01.059 --> 00:25:04.226
If you've got a decent culture, someone will have an answer.
00:25:04.226 --> 00:25:04.559
Yeah.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:05.960
They will have an answer to this.
00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:10.660
What step in your workflow felt harder or took longer today than it needed to?
00:25:11.826 --> 00:25:12.826
That's a good one.
00:25:12.826 --> 00:25:15.160
Ask people these questions occasionally.
00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:16.125
Where am I dragging you?
00:25:16.125 --> 00:25:17.925
Or as a leader, where am I dragging you down?
00:25:17.925 --> 00:25:20.226
Where am I preventing you from doing your job efficiently?
00:25:20.226 --> 00:25:26.960
If you could eliminate one repetitive manual workaround or annoyance this week, what would it be?
00:25:28.059 --> 00:25:31.692
That's another really good one People are gonna have answers to these questions.
00:25:31.692 --> 00:25:35.826
And even if they don't say if they don't, right off the bat be like, hey, I'm coming back.
00:25:35.826 --> 00:25:37.593
I'm coming back a week from today.
00:25:37.593 --> 00:25:37.960
Yeah.
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:43.192
And I want you to have something for me to have a checklist of a couple questions that you continue to ask people.
00:25:43.192 --> 00:25:44.259
Oh, you should.
00:25:44.259 --> 00:25:46.360
These are questions you should ask routinely.
00:25:46.360 --> 00:25:47.960
Not like one and done not.
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:49.192
Oh, well, we fixed the problem.
00:25:49.192 --> 00:25:50.860
Like that question can be asked again.
00:25:50.860 --> 00:25:51.860
It's evergreen.
00:25:51.860 --> 00:25:52.826
And this is why too.
00:25:52.826 --> 00:26:03.826
I talk with operators about asking this because if you tell the CEO this, they're going to come up with typically from a CEO perspective, they're going to come up with this grand plan.
00:26:03.826 --> 00:26:04.059
Yeah.
00:26:04.059 --> 00:26:05.625
You don't always want my grand plan.
00:26:05.625 --> 00:26:08.893
No, no, no. I may just need to write.
00:26:08.893 --> 00:26:12.860
Like I may need to move something in between step thirteen and step fourteen.
00:26:12.860 --> 00:26:13.692
And we're good.
00:26:13.692 --> 00:26:16.160
It may be six words may take care of this.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:16.526
Yes.
00:26:16.526 --> 00:26:19.793
And that's why I typically like to have operations in that.
00:26:19.793 --> 00:26:29.660
Now, the other thing that I want to talk about this is there was someone that Simon Sinek talked about this, and I've experienced this to the how we talk about leadership?
00:26:29.660 --> 00:26:34.860
And I talk about leadership from the the servant leadership perspective.
00:26:34.860 --> 00:26:35.925
Here's where we're going.
00:26:35.925 --> 00:26:37.425
How can I help?
00:26:37.425 --> 00:26:38.925
The thing that I don't like about.
00:26:38.925 --> 00:26:40.593
How can I help and what I want to.
00:26:40.593 --> 00:26:49.160
We say this, but what I want to dive into on this is think about the last time you had a friend that was going through something or a need.
00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:53.759
My default personally has always been let me know how I can help.
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:57.526
Which inevitably is met with a polite thanks.
00:26:57.526 --> 00:27:02.026
And then there's zero response, zero requests.
00:27:02.026 --> 00:27:06.593
The same thing happens in your business when you go to an employee that says, let me know how I can help.
00:27:06.593 --> 00:27:10.559
They're going to be like, I'm not putting any more load on him.
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.960
So nobody reaches out.
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:16.593
Now, what would happen if I asked someone how I could help?
00:27:16.593 --> 00:27:23.793
Like, get how I can help you get a very specific result once again, like the questions that I asked earlier.
00:27:23.793 --> 00:27:28.660
What, where in our handoff process are you experiencing confusion?
00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:30.526
Yeah, totally.
00:27:30.526 --> 00:27:31.793
Totally different.
00:27:31.793 --> 00:27:34.925
And once again, you're being curious about this.
00:27:34.925 --> 00:27:35.360
Yes.
00:27:35.360 --> 00:27:37.860
Rather than how can I help?
00:27:37.860 --> 00:27:40.526
How can I help is overused enough.
00:27:40.526 --> 00:27:43.860
It's kind of an automated automatic response in our brains.
00:27:43.860 --> 00:27:48.759
When you ask what tool, shortcut or SOP would make a difference in your execution?
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.360
Yeah, I'm asking for something very specific.
00:27:52.360 --> 00:27:54.492
I'm no longer asking how your day was.
00:27:54.492 --> 00:27:56.893
I'm asking one of my favorite networking questions.
00:27:56.893 --> 00:27:58.960
What's something you're working on that you're excited about?
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:01.759
Yeah, that people have an answer to it.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:03.992
They do that.
00:28:03.992 --> 00:28:15.026
Asking for something very clear is, is that is how as a leader, curiosity helps you move your business, your business section forward.
00:28:15.026 --> 00:28:20.692
Um, the, the asking the right questions, you are eliminating friction.
00:28:20.692 --> 00:28:25.125
It may be the smallest thing, but small things add up to big things.
00:28:25.125 --> 00:28:31.293
You'll gain velocity from this because once again, you're asking the team, where is this screwed up?
00:28:31.293 --> 00:28:36.960
And you're actually showing how you're not asking how I can help.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.660
You're showing them, here's how I can help.
00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:46.125
You're giving them an example of follow through to show that how can I help is not just fluff.
00:28:46.125 --> 00:28:50.860
The other thing with that is too, is we work from defense to problem solving.
00:28:50.860 --> 00:28:55.860
Like you talked about, the, the defensive mindset is one that kills businesses.
00:28:55.860 --> 00:28:57.026
Oh, always.
00:28:57.026 --> 00:28:59.026
It just it kills businesses.
00:28:59.026 --> 00:28:59.526
Yeah.
00:28:59.526 --> 00:29:03.293
Um, if we go to problem solving, like, hey, we got to fix this guys.
00:29:03.293 --> 00:29:06.559
Um, this, this is our machine.
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:10.625
It's, I mean, my name may be on the outside of the building, but it's our machine.
00:29:10.625 --> 00:29:12.492
And if it's broken, it's broken for all of us.
00:29:12.492 --> 00:29:18.093
So let's, let's make this, let's make this machine work great for all of us.
00:29:18.093 --> 00:29:28.093
Um, the other thing, whether it's fifteen seconds, fifteen minutes, like you said that, that reset that just take some time, Take some time away.
00:29:28.093 --> 00:29:29.492
Regulate yourself.
00:29:29.492 --> 00:29:30.059
Yes.
00:29:30.059 --> 00:29:32.992
Before you check yourself, check yourself before you wreck yourself.
00:29:32.992 --> 00:29:36.059
Yes, we regulate our emotions.
00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:41.960
I feel like we need that as a clip to Christie saying, check yourself before you wreck yourself.
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:51.660
Um, so yeah, and I mean, to me, it we move from, we move away from reactionary and we become intentional about what we're doing.
00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:52.293
Yeah.
00:29:52.293 --> 00:30:03.393
Um, once again, I'm going to go to the first thing that they teach rescue swimmers in the Coast Guard how to subdue someone that you're rescuing, because those people are flailing because they are desperate.
00:30:03.393 --> 00:30:04.192
They are emotional.
00:30:04.192 --> 00:30:04.360
Yes.
00:30:04.360 --> 00:30:05.192
They're going to drown you.
00:30:05.192 --> 00:30:06.692
If you don't, they're gonna drown both of you.
00:30:06.692 --> 00:30:08.226
So that is the thing.
00:30:08.226 --> 00:30:11.093
Um, ask questions to find the answer.
00:30:11.093 --> 00:30:12.793
Don't ask questions that have the answer.
00:30:12.793 --> 00:30:16.893
Like I said, there's, there's, I as soon as you said the what happened here?
00:30:16.893 --> 00:30:18.660
I heard my mother in my head.
00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:20.425
What happened here?
00:30:20.425 --> 00:30:24.593
Like, yeah, she knows she knows what happened.
00:30:24.593 --> 00:30:27.393
She's there's zero zero curiosity.
00:30:27.393 --> 00:30:27.759
Your first.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:27.960
Yeah.
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:30.393
Your first job at a fast food restaurant where you broke something.
00:30:30.393 --> 00:30:32.226
Right, right, right, right.
00:30:32.226 --> 00:30:36.559
This is there is zero curiosity in what happened here.
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.226
She may as well just be.
00:30:38.226 --> 00:30:39.259
Go to your room.
00:30:39.259 --> 00:30:39.925
Exactly.
00:30:39.925 --> 00:30:42.326
I mean, there's there's you're in trouble.
00:30:42.326 --> 00:30:43.360
You're in time out.
00:30:43.360 --> 00:30:45.460
Correct, correct.
00:30:45.460 --> 00:30:53.960
Um, so to me, like the, the goal of this really, it's to offer a buffer to strip that emotional charge out of it.
00:30:53.960 --> 00:31:41.889
And that way you can ask those open neutral questions like, like the ones I listed earlier that are going to expose the process flaw rather than blaming pop. Yeah.
00:31:41.889 --> 00:31:43.855
We've talked about Bob a lot recently.
00:31:43.855 --> 00:31:49.089
There's going to be someone in our comments that's that's a Bob who feel very attacked.
00:31:49.089 --> 00:31:50.289
Bob is sorry Bob.
00:31:50.289 --> 00:31:51.556
Right.
00:31:51.556 --> 00:31:52.690
You've been here for thirty years.
00:31:52.690 --> 00:31:54.490
You've found all the things we haven't called you, the brilliant jerks.
00:31:54.490 --> 00:31:56.155
But just know you're not so right.
00:31:56.155 --> 00:31:56.522
Right.
00:31:56.522 --> 00:32:01.190
If you are a bob that is under the age of thirty, um, let us know.
00:32:01.190 --> 00:32:04.855
So that way we, To me.
00:32:04.855 --> 00:32:09.355
What I really want to get with this is you are protecting the machine through curiosity.
00:32:09.355 --> 00:32:10.690
You're trying to get it better.
00:32:10.690 --> 00:32:11.255
You're looking.
00:32:11.255 --> 00:32:14.355
You're looking for destinations, not clicks.
00:32:14.355 --> 00:32:22.789
We're trying to figure out what what done looks like, and we're trying to find the most efficient path to done.
00:32:22.789 --> 00:32:26.889
And asking the right questions are what will get you there?
00:32:26.889 --> 00:32:30.123
Because you've hired a bunch of people that are experts to do stuff like this.
00:32:30.123 --> 00:32:31.289
Yeah.
00:32:31.289 --> 00:32:38.423
Where is where's the boundary between curious versus nosy?
00:32:38.423 --> 00:32:46.089
Because how does it how does a leader stay curious about operations without making the employees feel like micromanaged?
00:32:46.089 --> 00:32:47.889
Because I I've seen it too.
00:32:47.889 --> 00:32:49.423
What are you doing?
00:32:49.423 --> 00:32:50.655
What are you doing?
00:32:50.655 --> 00:32:52.123
Why do you do it that way?
00:32:53.855 --> 00:32:55.289
Yeah.
00:32:55.289 --> 00:32:55.655
Yeah.
00:32:55.655 --> 00:33:01.822
And I think the difference between, you know, curious and noses, whether the employees feel supported or scrutinized.
00:33:01.822 --> 00:33:02.889
Oh, One hundred percent.
00:33:02.889 --> 00:33:03.255
Curious.
00:33:03.255 --> 00:33:07.255
Sounds like help me understand where this happened or how this like, help me understand.
00:33:07.255 --> 00:33:10.789
And then, I mean, nosy is like, let me see if I can catch you doing something wrong.
00:33:10.789 --> 00:33:11.289
Yeah.
00:33:11.289 --> 00:33:13.490
Curious is I want you to succeed.
00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:14.155
Yes.
00:33:14.155 --> 00:33:15.222
Nosy is.
00:33:15.222 --> 00:33:16.690
I'm trying to catch you failing.
00:33:16.690 --> 00:33:17.755
Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:17.755 --> 00:33:24.222
I mean, I would say to if your questions make people feel like they're on trial, that's not curiosity.
00:33:24.222 --> 00:33:26.255
Oh, yeah.
00:33:26.255 --> 00:33:26.623
That's.
00:33:26.623 --> 00:33:27.490
Yeah.
00:33:27.490 --> 00:33:28.355
Yeah.
00:33:28.355 --> 00:33:35.955
How do you handle like that team member that has zero interest in learning the why and just wants to execute mindless clicks.
00:33:35.955 --> 00:33:39.955
So I don't think it's wrong that not everybody wants to be wildly curious all the time.
00:33:39.955 --> 00:33:41.190
I think that's perfectly fine.
00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:50.222
I think that some people are excellent when the lane is clear and when they've got a clear definition of what that task is, and they've got good expectations that things are going to stay stable.
00:33:50.222 --> 00:33:51.822
I mean, there's value in that.
00:33:51.822 --> 00:33:55.755
So I would say let's not shame someone for being task oriented.
00:33:55.755 --> 00:34:00.190
But I mean, you don't promote them into a role that requires them to ask questions.
00:34:00.190 --> 00:34:01.022
That's the other part.
00:34:01.022 --> 00:34:06.389
If they're really good at that, don't promote them to a space where they're going to fail.
00:34:06.389 --> 00:34:06.990
What about you?
00:34:06.990 --> 00:34:19.023
I look at it the same way, because there are hundreds of thousands of jobs that require that repetitive nature that like, here's exactly what you are supposed to do over and over and over again.
00:34:19.023 --> 00:34:24.023
And you probably like, I don't really want my mailman being all that curious.
00:34:24.023 --> 00:34:26.990
No, I do not.
00:34:29.190 --> 00:34:33.822
Like, I don't really want curiosity in some in some areas.
00:34:33.822 --> 00:34:39.755
So once again, there's thousands, hundreds of thousands of jobs like that.
00:34:39.755 --> 00:34:47.690
Just like you want these people in your organization and applaud those people for doing the role and how it's how it's defined.
00:34:47.690 --> 00:34:48.355
That's the other thing.
00:34:48.355 --> 00:34:49.623
Give them good feedback about that.
00:34:49.623 --> 00:34:51.489
It's okay that they're not curious.
00:34:51.489 --> 00:35:00.022
So how do you figure out if you're curious, if you're leading with the curiosity or leading with the iron fist?
00:35:00.022 --> 00:35:01.889
Oh, okay.
00:35:01.889 --> 00:35:04.955
So we're talking kind of like curiosity audit.
00:35:04.955 --> 00:35:08.255
How do we do that look like, like, like how do you look in the mirror?
00:35:08.255 --> 00:35:10.255
Like without it being a funhouse mirror?
00:35:10.255 --> 00:35:11.755
Like I look great.
00:35:11.755 --> 00:35:12.190
Yeah.
00:35:12.190 --> 00:35:12.522
Okay.
00:35:12.522 --> 00:35:13.722
So a couple things.
00:35:13.722 --> 00:35:14.155
All right.
00:35:14.155 --> 00:35:18.589
So I would say first we start with your first reaction under stress, right?
00:35:18.589 --> 00:35:26.889
When something goes wrong, do you ask a question or make a declaration and make sure your question is not a declaration?
00:35:26.889 --> 00:35:32.255
Exactly like, do you seek to understand or do you seek to prove like those are two very different things?
00:35:32.255 --> 00:35:37.489
Do people bring you bad news early, or do they only bring you bad news when they have absolutely no choice?
00:35:37.489 --> 00:35:40.690
Like the building is literally on fire and you're in the fire proof room.
00:35:40.690 --> 00:35:43.455
You're like, hey, building's on fire.
00:35:43.455 --> 00:35:45.789
I mean, I ran someone over in the parking lot.
00:35:45.789 --> 00:35:47.389
Yeah, that's gonna tell you a lot.
00:35:47.389 --> 00:35:48.722
So that's, that's the first one.
00:35:48.722 --> 00:35:51.455
Like when something goes wrong, how does that work?
00:35:51.455 --> 00:35:53.589
Like how does what's your first reaction under stress?
00:35:53.589 --> 00:36:04.922
And then I would say the uncomfortable mirror test is to ask your team when I ask questions, do they feel helpful or do they feel like a cross-examination?
00:36:04.922 --> 00:36:06.889
Literally ask that question to people.
00:36:06.889 --> 00:36:08.589
Where were you on the night of?
00:36:10.255 --> 00:36:10.522
Yeah.
00:36:10.522 --> 00:36:11.055
Do I ask?
00:36:11.055 --> 00:36:14.922
I mean, do my questions feel helpful or do they feel like a cross-examination?
00:36:14.922 --> 00:36:15.922
And that may sting.
00:36:15.922 --> 00:36:17.889
The reaction that you get from people.
00:36:17.889 --> 00:36:20.289
Just be prepared and it's okay.
00:36:20.289 --> 00:36:22.522
I mean, but because it's going to tell you the truth.
00:36:22.522 --> 00:36:22.755
Yeah.
00:36:22.755 --> 00:36:23.189
Right.
00:36:23.189 --> 00:36:26.855
You can also ask yourself, but I think you should ask your team instead.
00:36:26.855 --> 00:36:33.189
AM I asking this question to find an answer, or am I asking because I already have an answer and I want them to admit it?
00:36:33.189 --> 00:36:34.122
That's the worst.
00:36:34.122 --> 00:36:36.589
That's the that's the difference between curiosity and control.
00:36:36.589 --> 00:36:38.922
Why do you ask me a question that you already know the answer to?
00:36:38.922 --> 00:36:39.655
Exactly.
00:36:39.655 --> 00:36:44.955
Because curiosity says I may not have the full picture, but control says, I already decided what happened.
00:36:44.955 --> 00:36:47.489
And, you know, we've talked about how nobody wants to work anymore.
00:36:47.489 --> 00:36:49.189
That's why nobody wants to work for you.
00:36:49.189 --> 00:36:55.955
Because if you've already decided what's happened and you're coming from a place of control, it's not going to work.
00:36:55.955 --> 00:36:57.955
If you want people to be honest with you.
00:36:57.955 --> 00:37:02.422
They have to believe there is room for the truth to change your mind.
00:37:02.422 --> 00:37:04.255
Not the story that you have decided.
00:37:04.255 --> 00:37:05.355
It's.
00:37:05.355 --> 00:37:07.822
I love all the things that you've put here.
00:37:07.822 --> 00:37:14.255
I have put mine to a simple like formula on something I love because I had to operationalize this.
00:37:15.355 --> 00:37:18.922
It. Count your question to statement ratio in meetings.
00:37:18.922 --> 00:37:26.689
If you spend ninety percent of the time making statements and ten percent of the time asking questions, you're controlling, not leading.
00:37:26.689 --> 00:37:28.022
That's yes.
00:37:28.022 --> 00:37:37.789
If you are, if that's flipped, if you spend ninety percent of the time asking questions and ten percent of the time making statements, congratulations.
00:37:37.789 --> 00:37:38.822
You're leading.
00:37:38.822 --> 00:37:41.089
That's I to me, it's that simple.
00:37:41.089 --> 00:37:43.955
Like, and once again, I had to find a way to put it in a spreadsheet.
00:37:45.789 --> 00:37:47.122
Nice.
00:37:47.122 --> 00:37:48.355
Good job.
00:37:48.355 --> 00:37:49.822
Actionable stuff.
00:37:49.822 --> 00:37:50.122
Yeah.
00:37:50.122 --> 00:37:52.222
For me, the five whys.
00:37:52.222 --> 00:37:52.889
Ask why?
00:37:52.889 --> 00:37:53.822
Like a toddler.
00:37:53.822 --> 00:37:54.122
Yeah.
00:37:54.122 --> 00:37:56.255
And I would say shift your first question under stress.
00:37:56.255 --> 00:37:59.155
Replace who let this happen with.
00:37:59.155 --> 00:38:00.389
Help me understand.
00:38:00.389 --> 00:38:00.889
Yeah.
00:38:00.889 --> 00:38:04.789
I mean, similarly asked to find the answer, not trap the answer.
00:38:05.822 --> 00:38:09.489
And I would say we really need to practice getting it right over being right.
00:38:09.489 --> 00:38:12.555
So we model what we mandate humility, right.
00:38:12.555 --> 00:38:17.889
We publicly acknowledge when a curious question disproval I mean, when it disproved our initial assumption.
00:38:17.889 --> 00:38:19.022
Yay! Yeah.
00:38:19.022 --> 00:38:20.622
Thank you for explaining this to me.
00:38:20.622 --> 00:38:22.355
I, I had it wrong in my head.
00:38:22.355 --> 00:38:23.289
I learned something today.
00:38:23.289 --> 00:38:24.789
Yeah.
00:38:24.789 --> 00:38:29.089
Can you teach curiosity to Bob who's been there for thirty years?
00:38:30.655 --> 00:38:36.689
Yeah, I think I think there's hesitation there because you put this caveat with thirty years.
00:38:36.689 --> 00:38:38.089
Yes you can.
00:38:39.089 --> 00:38:40.089
I had to think for a second.
00:38:40.089 --> 00:38:41.022
I'm like, wait a second.
00:38:41.022 --> 00:38:44.755
Like we're the, um, I was wondering if I was being set up for failure.
00:38:44.755 --> 00:38:48.889
Like, was this, is this, are we not learning from our questions that we talked to this episode?
00:38:48.889 --> 00:38:52.089
So I think people repeat what gets rewarded.
00:38:52.089 --> 00:38:56.489
So yeah, so if curiosity gets punished, silence has become going to become the strategy.
00:38:56.489 --> 00:39:00.555
But even if you make that shift, like maybe Bob's been there in the first thirty years.
00:39:00.555 --> 00:39:01.622
This is what's happened.
00:39:01.622 --> 00:39:02.755
You can make that change.
00:39:02.755 --> 00:39:04.289
You got to reward, though.
00:39:04.289 --> 00:39:05.589
I totally agree.
00:39:05.589 --> 00:39:09.389
Like make incentivize people wanting to know more.
00:39:09.389 --> 00:39:15.322
If you incentivize that in some way, shape or another, you will be just, just fine.
00:39:15.322 --> 00:39:17.822
What like to you?
00:39:17.822 --> 00:39:29.289
What is the big red flag that an organization has lost or never had any curiosity whatsoever for me?
00:39:29.289 --> 00:39:32.989
Yeah, because we've always done it that way.
00:39:32.989 --> 00:39:38.789
Like as soon as I hear that, I'm like, I start the turn to turn in my head.
00:39:40.555 --> 00:39:42.789
There's no point having this conversation.
00:39:42.789 --> 00:39:44.022
Right, right, right.
00:39:44.022 --> 00:39:45.155
I'll just show myself out.
00:39:45.155 --> 00:39:45.322
Yeah.
00:39:45.322 --> 00:39:46.222
I would say it's for me.
00:39:46.222 --> 00:39:48.589
It's, it's like we've tried that before.
00:39:48.589 --> 00:39:49.722
They'll never go for it.
00:39:49.722 --> 00:39:50.822
It's too complicated.
00:39:50.822 --> 00:39:57.089
When I hear those three things, especially when we're in an HR space, I'm like, oh, we've got resignation around things.
00:39:57.089 --> 00:39:58.589
There's no curiosity.
00:39:58.589 --> 00:40:00.522
Oh, so the resignation.
00:40:00.522 --> 00:40:02.389
Yeah, that's a great way to look at it.
00:40:02.389 --> 00:40:06.955
I mean, when when an organization loses curiosity, people stop asking, could this be better?
00:40:06.955 --> 00:40:07.289
Yeah.
00:40:07.289 --> 00:40:08.389
So they've just resigned.
00:40:08.389 --> 00:40:09.789
This is this as good as it's gonna get?
00:40:09.789 --> 00:40:13.089
In many ways, that is because leadership is completely squashed.
00:40:13.089 --> 00:40:13.322
It.
00:40:13.322 --> 00:40:13.522
Yeah.
00:40:13.522 --> 00:40:14.889
And so they're just being survivors.
00:40:14.889 --> 00:40:19.155
They've learned to survive what's broken such a great time.
00:40:19.155 --> 00:40:21.489
Once again, we have the hostage situation.
00:40:21.489 --> 00:40:21.922
Yeah.
00:40:21.922 --> 00:40:33.122
Where and I joked about this before, but I'm going to joke about it again, where you walk in and you see the people that are blinking in a way that you're like, are they blinking?
00:40:33.122 --> 00:40:34.489
Help me in Morse code.
00:40:34.489 --> 00:40:35.522
Yeah.
00:40:35.522 --> 00:40:36.655
Or it's a staring contest.
00:40:36.655 --> 00:40:40.589
You're in the conference room with, you've got the manager and you've got the, the subordinate.
00:40:40.589 --> 00:40:42.489
And they're just, you know, they're just staring at each other.
00:40:42.489 --> 00:40:45.589
You're like, okay, how do we how can we have a conversation about this?
00:40:45.589 --> 00:40:50.522
And they're just like, no, no, we can't have a conversation about this.
00:40:50.522 --> 00:40:57.789
Speaking of which, if you'd like to hear more conversations about leadership, go to the business Fix podcast.
00:40:57.789 --> 00:41:00.589
It's actually business fix podcast dot com.
00:41:00.589 --> 00:41:01.689
No, the at the front of it.
00:41:01.689 --> 00:41:04.322
We we wanted to save time.
00:41:04.322 --> 00:41:06.489
We have no idea what we're talking about next week.
00:41:06.489 --> 00:41:09.789
No. And we need to really sit down and look at stuff.
00:41:09.789 --> 00:41:11.622
We've got a list of really cool things.
00:41:11.622 --> 00:41:11.922
Yeah.
00:41:11.922 --> 00:41:14.189
Look at our fan mail too, because we've had some requests.
00:41:14.189 --> 00:41:19.089
I think we're probably going to take a. We have had some really good requests that we need to.
00:41:19.089 --> 00:41:22.189
If you have a request, by all means let us know.
00:41:22.189 --> 00:41:26.722
Put it in the comments, whether it be on one of the platforms or on the website, send us an email.
00:41:26.722 --> 00:41:29.055
We would love to get email from you.
00:41:29.055 --> 00:41:30.689
That all being said, do us a favor.
00:41:30.689 --> 00:41:31.589
Take care of yourself.
00:41:31.589 --> 00:41:33.589
If you can take care of someone else too.
00:41:33.589 --> 00:41:36.455
We will see you very, very soon.