Techgrumps 3.41: The KardashElons of AI

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Welcome to Tech Grumps 3 .41. It is Sunday, the
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17th of June, and we are here once again to grump
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about tech. And with us tonight is Wendy. Hi,
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I'm Wendy Grossman. I'm based in London, and
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you can find me at pelicancrossing .net. David.
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I'm David Eastman. I'm based in West London,
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let me be more specific. And you can find me
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in Blue Sky, East Mad, and some other places
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too. Ian. Hi, I'm Ian and I am Cubic Garden everywhere.
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And I am in Manchester, but I did just pass through
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London. So there you go. Nice. And I am Ryan
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Alexander. You can find me as RN Alexander on
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most places, including Blue Sky. And don't forget
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the Tech Grumps hashtag is hashtag Tech Grumps.
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Okay, we are going to start off as we have made
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the tradition at Tech Grumps with our big AI
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roundup. We've got a bunch of stories that we've
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all collected together in the kind of the what
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on earth is going on with AI since we last spoke
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to you. And we're just going to kind of run through
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them real quick. We've got a story from 404 Media
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about podcast elites not getting AI. We've got
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a story from Ars Technica about mathematicians
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warning of AI threats to their profession. Another
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one from uh the atlantic talking about artificial
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intelligence is not consciousness the pope's
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encyclical which is a pretty big thing that happened
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with ai this year that in the last couple of
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weeks uh we've got a dead economic theory from
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owen mcgrann we've got open claw has 800 000
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lines of code which is from an interview that
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is done by our very own david which is great
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um and I've got a couple of links about racist
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AI hiring tools. As it turns out, AI isn't removing
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the biases, it's increasing them. So one from
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Fortune, one from the BBC, and a related one
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from Yahoo about a specific subset of the hiring
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process called Pymetrics, which may actually
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be... using the same thing over and over again
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for your thing. So does any of these mush together?
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What do people want to talk about first? Yes.
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Yes. I, well, I definitely get to the racist
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one because I mean, let's get racist. How many
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people, how many people of color, how many people,
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how many women, how many, you know, non -binary.
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I mean, it's just like, this, this is, I don't
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know. what it takes for anyone to to like listen
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i but before that i want to go to the one about
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the elites um i'm sure because most people have
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seen the videos of um the graduations standing
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up talking about how great ai is going to be
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and and the kind of the the the booze you know
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the booze and they kind of like and just I don't
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understand how they can literally stand up. Ian
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is referring to how many commencement speakers
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have been booed at talking not about some brand
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of alcohol that has come out of AI. That too.
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I'm sure most people have seen it and it's a
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little bit old now but I just wanted to get a
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feel for what everyone else felt. I'm sure you
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probably feel the same as what I do but I just
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kind of like I can't understand how tone deaf
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these people are. I think it's particularly notable
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because especially as it's American now, we're
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used to absolute straightforward fan cheering
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on any sort of speaker, especially at an event
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like that. So it's a graduation, obviously. And
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again, the opposite, you're getting direct boos,
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which, I mean, that is very notable. These people
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are not happy about AI. Well, I think it's also
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important to note that it's not just American,
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it's young people. And I think that's important
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because these are commencement and graduation
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speeches. And this is the next generation. And
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I want to say that I'm saying this with all respect
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and actually hope that they are having by none
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of this. And I am pleased. Having managed younger
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people, I continue to be astonished at the emotional
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intelligence that is coming up. And I am not
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grumpified by this. I am hopeful because I think
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that's going to be one of the things that might
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save us is an entire generation of people who
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are smarter than us emotionally. Has anybody
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looked into what particular aspect of AI they're
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booing about? I mean, the younger people that
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I know are so upset about climate change that
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that's actually a big reason why they're against
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the current version of AI, which is very energy
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and water intensive. But is that what's motivating
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it, or is it just the fear for their jobs? I
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think there's a fear for the... You know what
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it is for me? It's what I read from it. It's
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that... these commencement speeches are meant
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to be like pos not positive but like i like an
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outlook of like something to take with you as
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you're leaving the door and and and it just screams
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you know ai you need to be what in one with ai
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it's going to be great it's going to be your
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future you're going to love it and it's just
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like no i don't love it it's a real pain in the
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ass right now and and why why are you do bring
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this up right now it just feels really tone deaf
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i i think that i think that the climate change
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is an aspect of it but keep in mind that yeah
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very smart and they are capable of holding many
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different reasonable grudges against it in their
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head at once and i think a big grudge they get
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is they're quite legitimately terrified and worried
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about the future that's being presented to them
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and then the tone deafness of a commencement
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speaker coming out and telling this thing that
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they reasonably and in a fairly well -informed
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way look at and go no this is this is threatening
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to us and this is not a good thing and you're
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coming out and telling us that we have to be
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having you know near orgasmic pleasure at what
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this represents and we're not buying it at all.
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And we, and we hate that you're trying to persuade
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us of this in this moment. I think one generation
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is sweeping because it's not like, and we've
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all had to put up with AI. No, we made this stuff.
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We, the people speaking, we haven't put up with
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it, but we're just sweeping it towards you. Yeah.
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You're really going to like this. I'm like, well,
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they say, you don't know what you're talking
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about. You don't have to live with it. They do.
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And I think that's partly why they say we don't
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want this slop. I mean, I feel like it's a similar
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reaction they'd get if they came up and did like,
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you know, this commencement speech brought to
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you by Nestle, you know, like it's, it's, it,
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they, they almost, they recognize it as a callous
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endorsement and they don't want it in their space.
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I think that's, sorry, that's, I think that is
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key. I think you're right that there's this,
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this is endorsement and it's not the time to
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do that. And it just screams like, Yeah, it just
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is completely wrong time. I think it's distasteful,
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and I just wonder... I know they believe this
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shit, I'll be frank, but this is not a time to
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bring up what you think. I'm not certain how
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much of this is based in what I would call genuine
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belief. I think that there is a very strong...
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professional drive to not right now and i perceive
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this as kind of what i've been going through
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with you know trying to find my next job and
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everything else and this sense of like it was
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very clear to me going into these professional
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spaces like linkedin and reading the room going
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i don't get to be critical of ai in this space
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i have to i have to be seen as being supportive
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of it and being down to use it and not in any
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way wary because everyone's going to be using
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it. And this has been backed up by stuff that
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I've been seeing recently. I was at the LDX3
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conference. I'm going to give them a shout out
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in AOB. And it's like there are people who would
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know. And one of the people who spoke was a company
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called DX. They do developer experience. And
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they have lots of ways to see what's going on.
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And they're hired to do that. And tech industry
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is sitting at 90 % adoption. And they think that
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number is low. And that's in like two years.
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Whoever got any industry to do 90 % adoption
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in two years. I would, I'm not going to debate,
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but I think that is, I think obviously the figures
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are right, but I wonder about the fear of missing
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out and all those kind of mechanics that are
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going on that drive that kind of 90 % adoption.
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Oh, yeah. No, no, no. I'm not saying that. I'm
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in no way saying that that is a coming from a
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place of genuine enthusiasm. Right. Okay. I am
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saying that that is the pressure. That's the
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reality. Yeah, that's the pressure people feel.
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And it's not just in that. Like, you know, Wendy,
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you've got an article about mathematicians warning
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of AI threats to their profession. I think there's
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a declaration called the Leiden Declaration that
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a whole bunch of them have been signing. And
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it has something to do with AI generating mathematical
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proofs that are so complicated that they're impossible
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to check, and they may or may not be right. That's
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interesting. And they're sort of seeing it undermining...
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the work of junior mathematicians and destroying
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the pipeline going into the future i mean it's
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like a lot of professions are you know the way
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people are trying to use ai it cuts out junior
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staff and then there's nobody to become senior
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staff because you didn't have any juniors yeah
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there's this fear in in open source um software
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development the same thing ai pushes uh some
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sort of pr changes And there are so many of them
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that a lot of open source maintainers go, we
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can't check all these. Some of these might be
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bollocks. We don't even know if they're really
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fixing any actual changes, but they're getting
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swamped by these. And some projects are just
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saying, we're not accepting any more AI changes.
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In some cases, they're going, we're not accepting
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any more changes at all because we don't have,
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you know, we don't have. We were both at container
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days, David, and there was a talk about that,
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like a number, like the kind of the classic bug
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bounties program that a lot of open source things
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do. to encourage people to contribute, they had
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to shut down because they were getting orders
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of magnitude more submissions that were being
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AI slop generated, which meant that out of 100
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submissions, because normally without pre -AI
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code slop, the amount of the bug bounty wasn't
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worth someone putting in the time to try to submit
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code for it. No, it was just people who were
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on that there anyway. But now people can, you
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know... tell ai hey come up with 100 different
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proofs maybe one of these will stick submit all
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of them yes and and without with and without
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thinking that oh by the way i'm making an enormous
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amount of work for the people on the other end
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and if anything i think mythos is now specializing
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in that so hey it's getting worse um do we want
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to talk about the uh the the racism uh or do
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i even need to say anything they're like they
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have numbers on the fortune article and from
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the bbc and they're both very clear they've got
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i mean the the i'm going to say the nice thing
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and i'm going to i hope you hear the massive
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the nice thing about this is that we've known
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we know these problems for a long time we've
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been examining examining these problems for a
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long time and so we know mathematically pretty
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clearly when something is wonky And they've been
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looking at the math on this and going, yeah,
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you shouldn't. And the nice thing about it is
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it doesn't have to be blatant anymore. It can
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be just statistically significant. And they go,
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yeah, that is also racism. And it's good because
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when you're dealing with things like systemic
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racism. you need to be looking at it in a systemic
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way. And when you're looking at things in a systemic
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way, you're not going to have a binary yes, no.
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You're going to have, like, we're going to be
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hiring 10 % less black people now for some reason.
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The some reason is your AI hiring system is also
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racist. You know, like, that's what's going on.
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And even better, on top of that... No, no, Ryan,
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Ryan, no, no, Ryan, Ryan, sorry, sorry. I heard
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that, obviously, the reason why you're hiring
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10 % less is because the others are obviously
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better, right? That's what I would say. You can
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make that joke, Ian. I'm not going to make that
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joke. Sorry. I hope everyone heard the sarcasm
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of that, because we're all on the sarcasm with
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that. I mean, we're going back to the meritocracy,
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but we've moved on from that. Another interesting
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part for me, the part that made me want to put
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this in, was reading about... So, this is...
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Oh, God, this is a subtle point to make, which
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means that you don't need the whole system to
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be racist. You just need a part of the system
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to be racist and no other part of the system
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to give a crap. Yeah. Or to even be watching.
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And the reason why that's important is because
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this other chunk, which is this company called
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Pymetrics, and it turns out that one of the things
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that they're doing, they're not just looking
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at your CV. They're just doing a keyword search
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for the CV. But then they also go and do this.
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evaluation of you based on stuff that no one's
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even clear about with a company called Pymetrics.
00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.419
And apparently lots of these. So what you've
00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:20.919
got is you've got this whole ecosystem of applicant
00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:23.340
tracking systems and HR hiring systems that everyone's
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:24.620
outsourcing because they don't want to touch
00:14:24.620 --> 00:14:27.720
it and because it's big and messy. And now there's
00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.600
a hundred times more applicants because everyone's
00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:34.159
using AI to apply as well. And so this whole
00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:37.620
thing feeds into itself. But as part of this,
00:14:37.659 --> 00:14:39.620
they don't just do the CV processing. They do
00:14:39.620 --> 00:14:43.080
this. thing that is for all the world like a
00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.019
credit score, but it's an employability score.
00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:48.799
And that's what Pymetrics does. And they're not
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.000
even clear about how they do this. They bring
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.100
in the hand wavy, all kinds of stuff. They might
00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:55.179
be looking at your socials. I don't know. But
00:14:55.179 --> 00:14:57.639
the important thing is they don't reevaluate
00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:04.059
you every time. It's not like credit scores then,
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:05.860
because a credit score goes up and down depending
00:15:05.860 --> 00:15:10.480
on what charges you make. What you're saying
00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:12.919
is that this thing assigns you a score once and
00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:15.200
then never looks at it again? Apparently they
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.379
can endure for up to 330 days. That's a shit
00:15:18.379 --> 00:15:20.759
credit score, basically. And here's the thing.
00:15:22.649 --> 00:15:24.750
I'm pretty sure that each company is supposed
00:15:24.750 --> 00:15:27.269
to be doing independent evaluation of you. That's
00:15:27.269 --> 00:15:29.549
kind of almost like a legal requirement. Otherwise,
00:15:29.850 --> 00:15:31.669
what you're getting is this weird kind of colluding.
00:15:32.090 --> 00:15:35.549
And if all of these companies are outsourcing
00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:41.509
to these ATS systems, but the ATS systems are
00:15:41.509 --> 00:15:44.350
all using Pymetrics, and Pymetrics is giving
00:15:44.350 --> 00:15:45.889
them back the same score every time, going, oh
00:15:45.889 --> 00:15:47.610
yeah, we already evaluated that guy. He's horrible.
00:15:47.769 --> 00:15:49.990
Don't hire him. Yeah, don't look at him. Then
00:15:49.990 --> 00:15:54.139
here's the problem. Because that is an inherent,
00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:56.399
that is, that is an existing bias and that is
00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:58.860
shared. And it's like, that's really, really
00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:02.620
bad. Yeah. It's my point. Yeah. I'm hoping like
00:16:02.620 --> 00:16:03.940
that, that is actually what, that is actually
00:16:03.940 --> 00:16:06.200
what they say about an article saying, if, if
00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:08.340
you don't get a good rating from this company,
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.220
it will not. And what happens is your first application
00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:13.960
will go and that's when it triggers it. And then
00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:16.399
if you don't apply, if that chunk of that process
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.759
doesn't like you, the next 10 places you apply
00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:21.000
to, you're probably screwed out as well. Great.
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:27.100
Great time to be looking for a job. Well, all
00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:30.919
I'm going to say, sorry, is that you can understand
00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:34.539
why all the students were booing. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:41.340
Okay, next up on Tech Grumps is talking about
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:45.860
Kindles. Old Kindles, David? Well, obviously
00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:49.100
my Kindle must be old because I was just looking
00:16:49.100 --> 00:16:51.059
to buy a book. I think I'm going to mention it
00:16:51.059 --> 00:16:54.720
at the AOB. It's a very good one. It's about
00:16:54.720 --> 00:17:02.279
John Donne, the very old British lyricist, poet
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:07.660
and multi -person. Anyway, I bought this. I bought
00:17:07.660 --> 00:17:11.019
the book over on Amazon. So it appeared on my
00:17:11.019 --> 00:17:13.359
Kindle and I was allowed to buy it. And then
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.660
I think, I can't remember which device told me,
00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.460
I'm sorry, no, this Kindle can't feature any,
00:17:18.500 --> 00:17:22.740
it's no longer, we no longer support this Kindle.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.500
Now, the Kindle is one of the original paper
00:17:25.500 --> 00:17:29.539
whites, so it's not, it is old. But the problem
00:17:29.539 --> 00:17:32.339
is, they're making it sound like, oh, I can't,
00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:34.759
we can't support this because some of our third
00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:37.660
parties aren't in alignment. Like, this is your
00:17:37.660 --> 00:17:39.660
device. What do you mean you're not supporting
00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:42.309
your device? No one else is going to do it. And
00:17:42.309 --> 00:17:44.190
I was thinking, why did you allow me to buy a
00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:45.769
book and then tell me, oh, the device you're
00:17:45.769 --> 00:17:48.329
going to read it on? Nah, no, no, you can't do
00:17:48.329 --> 00:17:50.529
anything. So I thought, let me look up, see how
00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:53.170
I get around it. And their idea of getting around
00:17:53.170 --> 00:17:55.849
it is, yeah, just use another device. I thought,
00:17:55.869 --> 00:17:58.549
no, no, I bought a Kindle to read books. I know
00:17:58.549 --> 00:18:00.569
I can read a book. I can read a book. Fuck's
00:18:00.569 --> 00:18:02.829
sake, I can buy a book. I don't need a Kindle.
00:18:03.130 --> 00:18:06.029
So I was a bit upset to say, no, it's just, you
00:18:06.029 --> 00:18:09.250
know, the Kindle is now wrong. The Kindle isn't
00:18:09.250 --> 00:18:13.000
wrong. I think I read about this a couple of
00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.819
months ago. It's, it's some new thing that the,
00:18:15.940 --> 00:18:19.519
the, the older Kindles are, are no longer allowed
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.680
to buy books or, um, I mean, obviously there
00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:25.480
has to be a reason because it's, because it's
00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.240
dumb. It's like, I tell you what the reason is.
00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:31.259
We're very clear about what the reason is. The
00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:34.980
reason is end shitification and maximizing their
00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:40.440
profit. And, you know, I'm, it really, pisses
00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.299
me off when this thing happens whereas like you
00:18:43.299 --> 00:18:47.519
have a perfectly good device to be able to to
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.079
read books yeah they promoted it heavily you
00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.779
bought into it And your Paperwhite, I thought
00:18:53.779 --> 00:18:56.119
you had one of the even older ones. I have a
00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:57.720
Paperwhite, one of the early Paperwhites. Yeah,
00:18:57.720 --> 00:18:59.759
but it's not, I mean, the Paperwhites are still,
00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.140
they're still not, but the really old one, I
00:19:03.140 --> 00:19:05.720
had a really, really old one. The old Kindle
00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:07.359
or really old Paperwhite? Yeah, the really old
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:09.660
Kindle. Oh, yeah, they can be very old, yeah.
00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:13.539
Yeah. They decided to stop supporting Kindles
00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:17.180
that were made before 2012. And why? It's a question.
00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:23.650
Because they decided. yeah exactly is it a security
00:19:23.650 --> 00:19:26.289
problem for somebody it's like that's like yes
00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:28.170
for windows you could do that because they might
00:19:28.170 --> 00:19:30.710
the problem is that they can't they've reached
00:19:30.710 --> 00:19:32.470
the limits of how much they can monetize that
00:19:32.470 --> 00:19:35.430
old hardware yeah exactly exactly i mean what
00:19:35.430 --> 00:19:39.309
what one expects them to do is say look the devices
00:19:39.309 --> 00:19:44.470
we've made now are much better you know weirdly
00:19:44.470 --> 00:19:47.470
this is like the same problem that we hear from
00:19:47.470 --> 00:19:49.369
people talking about of course they're never
00:19:49.369 --> 00:19:50.650
going to make a cure they want to sell you the
00:19:50.650 --> 00:19:53.690
treatment for the rest of your life and it's
00:19:53.690 --> 00:19:57.190
this thing of like how to how to read a book
00:19:57.190 --> 00:20:01.029
on an electronic device is a problem that we
00:20:01.029 --> 00:20:03.970
solved and solved pretty comprehensively well
00:20:03.970 --> 00:20:07.230
over a decade ago it's not that hard it's text
00:20:08.299 --> 00:20:10.779
and maybe some formatting and we've known how
00:20:10.779 --> 00:20:13.339
to do that for decades and we figured out a nice
00:20:13.339 --> 00:20:15.759
way to do it on a on an electronic book like
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:17.740
device and we figured that out over a decade
00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:21.440
ago and there's not a whole lot more to do there
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.559
yeah in terms of in terms of the actual service
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.740
being offered digital book onto a digital reader
00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:32.690
boom sorted But in terms of the money they want
00:20:32.690 --> 00:20:34.269
to make, I'd be willing to bet you almost anything
00:20:34.269 --> 00:20:36.769
that what they want for the newer Kindles is
00:20:36.769 --> 00:20:40.150
the ability to have more processing power, to
00:20:40.150 --> 00:20:42.390
give them more metrics on what you're reading,
00:20:42.430 --> 00:20:45.450
probably to do things like put ads into books
00:20:45.450 --> 00:20:46.690
when you don't pay enough for them. I'm fairly
00:20:46.690 --> 00:20:49.390
certain you've just hit the actual reason they
00:20:49.390 --> 00:20:51.029
want to turn it into an advertising platform.
00:20:51.369 --> 00:20:54.609
Now, I don't have any problem with that. This
00:20:54.609 --> 00:20:58.470
is why you should buy a Kobo. No, no, no, no,
00:20:58.470 --> 00:21:00.930
no, no. This is why you should buy an e -ink
00:21:00.930 --> 00:21:08.009
Android device. Or that. Yes. Ian, you are being
00:21:08.009 --> 00:21:13.130
so Ian right now. Okay, but the point is that
00:21:13.130 --> 00:21:19.809
at least that no one's going to come and go,
00:21:19.869 --> 00:21:23.900
right. Is Kobo not an e -ink device? It is an
00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:26.819
e -ink device, but the operating system is not
00:21:26.819 --> 00:21:30.740
open enough for you to... That's the difference
00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:34.559
I'm trying to say. No, I don't know. What openness
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:37.319
do you think it doesn't have? I mean, there are
00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.440
people who... You can actually break into it
00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:43.339
and put in apps and all sorts of things. So I
00:21:43.339 --> 00:21:46.019
think there's a difference between breaking into
00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:49.400
it, and this is what the link that I had. It's
00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:54.119
about jailbreaking the Kindle. there's this thing
00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:56.400
about doing that and then there's a an operating
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:58.740
system that you can like actually build applications
00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:01.619
for that that that's a good point so you have
00:22:01.619 --> 00:22:03.460
the second article you have here that we put
00:22:03.460 --> 00:22:06.420
in the story is about people defying the situation
00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:09.299
that david just talked about and going no and
00:22:09.299 --> 00:22:11.380
so they're they're basically jailbreaking their
00:22:11.380 --> 00:22:14.450
kindles talk Tell them about that. Yeah, so you
00:22:14.450 --> 00:22:16.690
can jailbreak the Kindle. This has been well
00:22:16.690 --> 00:22:19.890
known. And obviously, because people are so frustrated,
00:22:20.029 --> 00:22:23.170
like David, and they bought these books, and
00:22:23.170 --> 00:22:26.329
they just want to use it to read books. That
00:22:26.329 --> 00:22:29.210
they've forced. And these are people that normally
00:22:29.210 --> 00:22:33.549
would never even consider jailbreaking, hacking,
00:22:33.809 --> 00:22:36.670
anything like that. But they're forced to because
00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:38.410
Amazon made this decision. Forced isn't the right
00:22:38.410 --> 00:22:39.829
word. I have a different opinion. It's still
00:22:39.829 --> 00:22:41.710
very positive. I like that they're doing this.
00:22:41.789 --> 00:22:46.130
But the thing that I find almost silver lining
00:22:46.130 --> 00:22:48.769
happy making about this is that. They're not
00:22:48.769 --> 00:22:51.829
being forced to. It's just that Amazon's removing
00:22:51.829 --> 00:22:56.569
any threat they have for them to not do it. Yeah,
00:22:56.589 --> 00:22:58.450
okay, that's true. Once Amazon says, we're not
00:22:58.450 --> 00:23:00.410
going to support the Kindle, then the people
00:23:00.410 --> 00:23:01.849
are like, well, it's not like this is going to
00:23:01.849 --> 00:23:04.130
fucking work for me going forward. So what are
00:23:04.130 --> 00:23:06.210
you going to do, brick it? You've already fucking
00:23:06.210 --> 00:23:11.250
bricked it. So why wouldn't I? You've now made
00:23:11.250 --> 00:23:15.450
this device useless to me. So you have removed,
00:23:15.670 --> 00:23:18.190
like, are you going to come after me and sue
00:23:18.190 --> 00:23:20.690
me if I make this work again? I don't think so.
00:23:21.769 --> 00:23:25.029
You can actually go on reading the books that
00:23:25.029 --> 00:23:28.769
are already on it. This is the thing. It's not
00:23:28.769 --> 00:23:31.130
exactly, but that's the point. It's like, if
00:23:31.130 --> 00:23:33.049
they said, oh, we can't support this anymore.
00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:35.549
You go, I don't know why, but fair enough. They
00:23:35.549 --> 00:23:37.450
are supporting it. Oh, yes, you can carry on
00:23:37.450 --> 00:23:38.829
reading the books you have. You just can't buy
00:23:38.829 --> 00:23:40.730
any new ones. You can come into this library,
00:23:40.809 --> 00:23:43.029
but you can't get any new books. And that's them
00:23:43.029 --> 00:23:45.430
just wanting to have it both ways. They don't
00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:49.089
want to lose you as a customer, but they want
00:23:49.089 --> 00:23:51.710
to force you to buy a new object that they can
00:23:51.710 --> 00:23:55.630
monetize better. And even just forcing you to,
00:23:55.650 --> 00:23:58.029
by the way, just forcing you to buy a new piece
00:23:58.029 --> 00:24:00.690
of tech from them is also them monetizing it
00:24:00.690 --> 00:24:03.910
better. Yeah. I mean, I consider that capitalism.
00:24:03.990 --> 00:24:05.990
That's cool. I know they want to have an ad platform
00:24:05.990 --> 00:24:07.549
and I know they want the newest ones to have
00:24:07.549 --> 00:24:10.089
an ad platform. And the solution is they just
00:24:10.089 --> 00:24:12.490
sell them cheaper and a slight loss like they
00:24:12.490 --> 00:24:14.509
did initially. And I'd, yeah, okay, I'll get
00:24:14.509 --> 00:24:18.190
a new one, but not by like kicking me from behind
00:24:18.190 --> 00:24:19.349
and saying, no, we're going to make sure you
00:24:19.349 --> 00:24:23.569
can't use your old one. They can't make the ads
00:24:23.569 --> 00:24:25.990
well enough. They can't make the ads perform
00:24:25.990 --> 00:24:27.410
well enough on that platform. And that's why
00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:28.940
they don't want to sell it anymore. yeah yeah
00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:31.440
oh yes i mean that is the actual reason it's
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:32.960
because they want to make an ad platform and
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.380
they don't want but yeah but i love but this
00:24:35.380 --> 00:24:39.880
part of it this thing that i like is that i want
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:43.259
more companies like amazon to realize that if
00:24:43.259 --> 00:24:45.259
you like the moment you say we're not going to
00:24:45.259 --> 00:24:48.440
like we've seen this before like we've seen other
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:50.779
plat like ian you you've had all these smart
00:24:50.779 --> 00:24:53.259
watches and these smart devices that they just
00:24:53.259 --> 00:24:55.920
lose all of their tech support and then there's
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.240
a company like you might as well you might as
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:00.500
well freaking open source and try to root them
00:25:00.500 --> 00:25:02.920
because the company's not even around to kick
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:04.359
your ass for it you don't have any more yeah
00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:08.019
this is literally the only way forward with you
00:25:08.019 --> 00:25:11.039
continuing to use this piece of technology in
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:15.680
any useful way whatsoever the force the force
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:20.269
against The force against rooting and jailbreaking
00:25:20.269 --> 00:25:23.250
devices is this threat of, if we find out that
00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:25.130
you've done it, we're going to trash the device
00:25:25.130 --> 00:25:26.690
and we're not going to support it anymore and
00:25:26.690 --> 00:25:27.950
we're not going to be able to use it anymore.
00:25:28.210 --> 00:25:30.410
And it's like, you've just done that yourself.
00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:36.400
So where's your threat? you know so yeah and
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.680
carrying the situation of windows in which you
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:41.039
know microsoft go okay we've got a new version
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:43.599
of windows and very few people go oh but i like
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:45.400
the old one because you don't like any version
00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:46.980
of windows that well the new one will be slightly
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:49.279
better than the older one but that's bad too
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.660
but it's a different situation because everyone's
00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:53.819
saying yes you the old one is shit the new one
00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:55.339
will probably be shit in a different way but
00:25:55.339 --> 00:25:57.460
it'll be you know slight upgrade in the shit
00:25:57.950 --> 00:26:01.230
This is actually a lot of people don't want to
00:26:01.230 --> 00:26:03.470
upgrade windows because they don't want the interface
00:26:03.470 --> 00:26:09.009
to change. And also, yeah, people go, well, I've,
00:26:09.009 --> 00:26:11.089
I've got used to this crap. I don't want more
00:26:11.089 --> 00:26:13.349
crap. I've got to get used to the new errors.
00:26:14.149 --> 00:26:16.890
But also Windows 11, the upgrade from 10 to 11
00:26:16.890 --> 00:26:19.650
is having some very weird, strict hardware requirements
00:26:19.650 --> 00:26:21.390
that were never present in older ones. There's
00:26:21.390 --> 00:26:23.369
lots of people who have Windows 10 and they're
00:26:23.369 --> 00:26:25.349
going, you have to upgrade, but by the way, this
00:26:25.349 --> 00:26:27.369
machine is crap. And like, I bought this machine
00:26:27.369 --> 00:26:29.250
two years ago. And like, that's still crap. You
00:26:29.250 --> 00:26:31.089
have to upgrade, but you can't do it on this
00:26:31.089 --> 00:26:33.069
one. It's quite ridiculous because it's not even,
00:26:33.089 --> 00:26:35.029
it's a TPN chip. It's completely ridiculous.
00:26:35.150 --> 00:26:37.109
And they should never have done all that, but
00:26:37.109 --> 00:26:41.930
they did. Can I justify, do I justify the comment
00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:46.579
about The Android E -Ink. Because I want to make
00:26:46.579 --> 00:26:48.920
that clear because... Because you're Ian. So
00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:52.220
right now, there's a lot of people who want,
00:26:52.460 --> 00:26:56.720
who are, as you've all said, they're kind of
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:04.019
encouraged by this bought this device to jailbreak
00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:07.769
it. And so that means there's a large community
00:27:07.769 --> 00:27:10.250
of people, including people who could develop
00:27:10.250 --> 00:27:14.750
applications for it, that could do some amazing
00:27:14.750 --> 00:27:17.630
stuff with these old Kindles. That's one thing.
00:27:18.130 --> 00:27:20.569
I think the problem you'll get is that you'll
00:27:20.569 --> 00:27:22.730
be able to do what you want it to do. You want
00:27:22.730 --> 00:27:26.369
it to read books. But the reason why I was saying
00:27:26.369 --> 00:27:30.849
about the Android -based e -ink displays, because
00:27:30.849 --> 00:27:33.970
I'm starting to see... applications which are
00:27:33.970 --> 00:27:37.410
specifically for e -ink they're yeah they're
00:27:37.410 --> 00:27:39.609
made in that way the developers are building
00:27:39.609 --> 00:27:42.089
stuff because there's enough people who are starting
00:27:42.089 --> 00:27:44.869
to buy them because they're so they they've kind
00:27:44.869 --> 00:27:47.630
of had the kindle they've had the kobo and kind
00:27:47.630 --> 00:27:51.650
of got a little bit annoyed so i'd say one of
00:27:51.650 --> 00:27:52.950
the things i'm trying to say ultimately is that
00:27:52.950 --> 00:27:59.349
if you if you like ink and you do want to and
00:27:59.349 --> 00:28:01.849
you really recognize that format or recognize
00:28:01.849 --> 00:28:05.750
that that um that way of reading books then there
00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:10.289
is a lot more variety on the android um system
00:28:10.289 --> 00:28:14.349
and yes you should well i'm sorry i'm not saying
00:28:14.349 --> 00:28:16.730
you should jailbreak it but if you do that's
00:28:16.730 --> 00:28:20.529
one thing as and um as ryan said then no one's
00:28:20.529 --> 00:28:23.420
going to come after you i don't think but i think
00:28:23.420 --> 00:28:25.700
generally people will move to something which
00:28:25.700 --> 00:28:29.180
is they once bitten you know can don't want that
00:28:29.180 --> 00:28:32.519
again and so i feel that that's why these android
00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:35.660
e -ink displays are starting to become very popular
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.700
Or listeners at home who are wondering why Ian
00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:40.900
is talking about e -ink in the way that he is,
00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:43.680
e -ink is a different kind of display with much
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.279
slower refresh rates. And so you have to code
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:48.779
for it specifically and make applications with
00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:50.740
that in mind. You can't just port anything over.
00:28:50.819 --> 00:28:52.660
It's a great platform. It's a low energy platform.
00:28:52.779 --> 00:28:55.759
And I believe it has the really cool aspect that
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:57.859
when you turn it off, it stays in the state that
00:28:57.859 --> 00:28:59.940
you turn it off. It certainly does. Leave it
00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:02.220
in that state and it can be. unpowered and still
00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:05.079
be reading stuff. It's a neat platform, but you
00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:06.900
need to think about the app slightly differently.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:13.400
Yeah, absolutely. Next up on Tech Grumps, we
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:16.559
have a story from Wendy about OpenAI beats Musk.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:22.339
Well, Elon Musk was, I guess, involved in some
00:29:22.339 --> 00:29:26.170
way in founding OpenAI. And if you recall, the
00:29:26.170 --> 00:29:28.789
original idea behind OpenAI was going to do something,
00:29:28.849 --> 00:29:31.069
it was going to build AI in the interest of humanity,
00:29:31.269 --> 00:29:33.089
it was going to be non -profit, and it was going
00:29:33.089 --> 00:29:37.410
to be a bunch of other things. And they now have
00:29:37.410 --> 00:29:40.150
a for -profit arm they're talking about, and
00:29:40.150 --> 00:29:42.650
they're probably talking about an IPO, everybody
00:29:42.650 --> 00:29:46.809
else seems to be. And Musk decided to sue them
00:29:46.809 --> 00:29:49.710
for some sort of breach of contract for not sticking
00:29:49.710 --> 00:29:54.880
with the original non -profit plan. And he lost
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.900
the case. But the reason he lost the case is
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:01.019
the jury felt it took him too long to sue. So
00:30:01.019 --> 00:30:05.579
he lost on a technicality. And I don't know what
00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:07.619
that says about anything except that, you know,
00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:09.740
some very unpleasant people yelled at each other
00:30:09.740 --> 00:30:12.359
in a courtroom. Yeah, that's about it. I still
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:17.119
have trouble believing that Musk took the side
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:20.329
that he did. Like, it's like that. That could
00:30:20.329 --> 00:30:24.009
only be born out of pettiness. I cannot believe
00:30:24.009 --> 00:30:26.470
there was a core morality behind it in any way
00:30:26.470 --> 00:30:32.390
as regards Musk. Yeah. Sorry, I tuned out of
00:30:32.390 --> 00:30:34.589
all of this because I just saw it as one massive
00:30:34.589 --> 00:30:38.269
soap opera. And I was like, sorry, this is not
00:30:38.269 --> 00:30:44.869
to kind of diss the story because it is important,
00:30:45.089 --> 00:30:49.059
but I also... I just was like, there seems to
00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:51.119
be a load of other things which are sneaking
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:56.759
by because of this court case. It is impactful
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.380
on us. And it is significant to the economy.
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:02.759
But I kind of get what you're saying, Ian, because
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:05.980
Sam Altman and Musk are kind of like the tech
00:31:05.980 --> 00:31:10.119
people's Kardashians. Yes. We know they're fighting.
00:31:10.339 --> 00:31:12.779
At a certain level, we're just like, are they
00:31:12.779 --> 00:31:15.420
still fighting? Are they focusing on each other
00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:18.579
and not making our lives extra shit? Fine. Yeah.
00:31:19.939 --> 00:31:22.660
To be fair, they are actually doing that, and
00:31:22.660 --> 00:31:24.960
this is probably impactful, but I get that instinct
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:27.440
of like, oh, the famous people we pay too much
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.819
attention to are doing more dramatic shit, whatever.
00:31:30.579 --> 00:31:37.519
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was slightly blindsided.
00:31:38.019 --> 00:31:40.640
Sam Altman was probably a bit smarter than I
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:43.220
think we thought. Musk was slightly blindsided
00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:44.640
because, of course, he came out with Grok and
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:48.190
then didn't realize that. that OpenAI would do
00:31:48.190 --> 00:31:51.890
what they did, but I think... I honestly... When
00:31:51.890 --> 00:31:53.690
I said I don't think the moral's behind it, I
00:31:53.690 --> 00:31:58.950
think his... This feels like... This almost just
00:31:58.950 --> 00:32:01.849
feels like, what can I hit Sam Altman with because
00:32:01.849 --> 00:32:05.000
I'm feeling frustrated that Grok didn't... succeed
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.599
as well as this other stuff yeah absolutely pretend
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:10.180
they had some contract it's like no he's as shitty
00:32:10.180 --> 00:32:12.140
as you are he's just actually a little bit brighter
00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:14.599
at being shitty and that's just like oh get out
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:18.339
of it it's not a court case and yeah and and
00:32:18.339 --> 00:32:22.920
that for me there's a sense of like i don't i
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:26.140
don't think that you actually care about anything
00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:28.579
moralistically about the situation so i don't
00:32:28.579 --> 00:32:30.220
want to give you credit for fighting for open
00:32:30.220 --> 00:32:33.390
source and helping humanity because Anyone who's
00:32:33.390 --> 00:32:35.009
watched you for five minutes knows you don't
00:32:35.009 --> 00:32:38.250
give a flying fuck about that. Yeah. There's
00:32:38.250 --> 00:32:41.650
that feeling of, oh, someone who must doesn't
00:32:41.650 --> 00:32:43.869
like must be good. But in this case, no, Sam
00:32:43.869 --> 00:32:47.269
isn't good at all. So we have no winners here.
00:32:47.710 --> 00:32:51.349
Yeah, it's that Godzilla meme. Let them fight.
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:55.319
I do think that the significant thing is what
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:59.019
Wendy said, that, you know, and lots of people
00:32:59.019 --> 00:33:02.400
have said, you know, how did the lawyers not
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:04.859
kind of go, hold on a minute, this has been a
00:33:04.859 --> 00:33:09.019
long time, you know, and they must have said
00:33:09.019 --> 00:33:11.579
that, and he was just like, I don't care, I'm
00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:14.259
still going ahead with it. Yeah, but a lot of
00:33:14.259 --> 00:33:16.200
people find loopholes. They're just hoping that
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:18.920
they'd loophole through and it didn't. It might
00:33:18.920 --> 00:33:22.640
not even have been loophole. Literally, he might
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:25.640
have just been doing it in the hopes to eye up
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:27.920
Sam Altman and slow him down for a chance for
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:32.000
his own AI stuff to get some advantage. The number
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:34.119
of ways that this can benefit people when they're
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:36.559
wealthy at the scale these people are is... Beyond
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.279
comprehension. Because of the amount of money
00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:41.259
involved, you know, a slight share price wobble
00:33:41.259 --> 00:33:43.619
could be millions. So, yeah, of course. Yeah,
00:33:43.619 --> 00:33:50.099
true. All right. Next up is David with an article
00:33:50.099 --> 00:33:53.619
from James O'Malley talking about the National
00:33:53.619 --> 00:33:58.930
Data Library. Yeah, so this is effectively a
00:33:58.930 --> 00:34:01.450
British thing, but I think it extends a bit more
00:34:01.450 --> 00:34:04.190
than that. So when the latest Labour administration
00:34:04.190 --> 00:34:08.570
came in, they airily said, not unlike other administrations,
00:34:08.570 --> 00:34:09.989
to be honest, said, oh, we're going to introduce
00:34:09.989 --> 00:34:12.230
this thing called the National Data Library.
00:34:12.570 --> 00:34:14.510
And when people ask, what is that going to do?
00:34:14.630 --> 00:34:17.309
They sort of said, it's going to federate lots
00:34:17.309 --> 00:34:20.289
of data sets. And of course, they couldn't ask
00:34:20.289 --> 00:34:21.969
more than that because the person involved probably
00:34:21.969 --> 00:34:23.630
didn't know what any of those words meant. But
00:34:23.630 --> 00:34:26.239
there was a sort of... Bit of excitement because
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:29.199
of this sort of old days of GDS, trying to get
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.139
departments to share data. I think the problem
00:34:32.139 --> 00:34:34.539
is sort of tech nerds got excited because I think,
00:34:34.539 --> 00:34:37.199
well, the possibilities there are quite wide.
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:39.420
And of course, nothing happened at all for quite
00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:42.760
a couple of years. But James O'Malley, in an
00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:45.780
article that we've linked to, managed to find
00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:52.090
a minister. I think it's... I think it's just
00:34:52.090 --> 00:34:54.869
the minister. I'm just trying to get his name.
00:34:55.510 --> 00:34:59.309
That's it. I think it's Ian Murray. And they
00:34:59.309 --> 00:35:02.630
are, in fact, sort of reusing this National Data
00:35:02.630 --> 00:35:07.309
Library. Now, they have a specific reason. First
00:35:07.309 --> 00:35:10.170
of all, what the National Data Library is currently,
00:35:10.369 --> 00:35:14.530
it's just a re -skinned site called data .gov
00:35:14.530 --> 00:35:17.369
.uk. So, in fact, if you go to data .gov .uk,
00:35:17.530 --> 00:35:21.170
you'll see about... Six data sets or something,
00:35:21.269 --> 00:35:24.010
or six or seven, or a handful of data sets of
00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:27.170
vague, obviously, public government data, which
00:35:27.170 --> 00:35:32.369
is great. Now, that's it. And what they've done
00:35:32.369 --> 00:35:37.190
is they've got one specific scheme that they're
00:35:37.190 --> 00:35:39.570
going to try. In fact, they're connecting health,
00:35:39.630 --> 00:35:43.150
information, education, childcare data in three
00:35:43.150 --> 00:35:45.929
local authorities. But listen to this. Hammersmith,
00:35:46.090 --> 00:35:49.260
Leeds and Liverpool, which have no... connection
00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:51.579
whatsoever. I assure you the connection between
00:35:51.579 --> 00:35:54.079
Hammersmith, which is pretty well off, and Liverpool
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:56.739
probably quite low actually. But the point is
00:35:56.739 --> 00:35:58.719
that they've got a scheme and they're trying
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.280
to sort of breach these two things together.
00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:05.920
So if I just read out the... the sort of mission
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:08.199
statement for the national data library we will
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:10.800
create a national data library to bring together
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:14.239
existing research programs and help deliver data
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:17.599
-driven public services whilst maintaining strong
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:21.539
safeguards and ensuring all of the public benefit
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:24.519
now of course since they made that statement
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:26.659
that was a few years ago of course we've walked
00:36:26.659 --> 00:36:29.019
into all the other problems of social media and
00:36:29.019 --> 00:36:31.760
wanting to stop kids actually looking at social
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:35.559
media or in fact their phones so understandably,
00:36:35.619 --> 00:36:39.300
they've gone a bit quiet on this. But this is
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:41.659
quite an interesting change in which they are
00:36:41.659 --> 00:36:45.920
making an attempt. They also want to try and
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.699
move forward with this on anonymized data, which
00:36:49.699 --> 00:36:51.739
is like large sets, but, you know, no names on
00:36:51.739 --> 00:36:55.039
them. And also they mentioned they do want to
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:57.559
maybe move towards sort of one patient record
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:00.579
for the NHS. But that's a bit odd because that
00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:03.289
would need an awful lot of security. And they
00:37:03.289 --> 00:37:05.230
have mentioned other sort of department sharing
00:37:05.230 --> 00:37:08.090
ideas. But again, they haven't really moved forward
00:37:08.090 --> 00:37:12.130
with that. So the bottom line is that they are
00:37:12.130 --> 00:37:18.809
trying to sort of reconnect with what was something
00:37:18.809 --> 00:37:22.929
they promised to do. But maybe it's sort of I
00:37:22.929 --> 00:37:25.090
don't want to blame this administration, which
00:37:25.090 --> 00:37:26.730
I mean, everyone said is a bit dull and falling
00:37:26.730 --> 00:37:29.590
to pieces. that they are making a vague attempt
00:37:29.590 --> 00:37:33.469
to hold on to the sort of promise of GDS and
00:37:33.469 --> 00:37:38.510
sort of data use, but kind of still falling in
00:37:38.510 --> 00:37:41.289
the way. I don't know whether this is typical
00:37:41.289 --> 00:37:45.829
of other governments attempting to do good on
00:37:45.829 --> 00:37:48.889
the promise of federated data sets, but I do
00:37:48.889 --> 00:37:51.710
feel it's a little weak. I don't know what other
00:37:51.710 --> 00:37:54.360
people think, but it's a bit like, yeah. but
00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:56.039
then the more you read about it you think no
00:37:56.039 --> 00:38:02.619
that there's still very little happening i wonder
00:38:02.619 --> 00:38:06.980
i i keep remembering about how we used to have
00:38:06.980 --> 00:38:10.280
these open weather sources this is the big talk
00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:12.860
both in the us and the uk about these open data
00:38:12.860 --> 00:38:15.639
sources that other people companies built on
00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:18.719
like weather apps and then eventually they got
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:21.119
using they used them enough that they went we
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.099
need you to shut down other people's free access
00:38:23.099 --> 00:38:25.099
to this because it represents an unfair competition
00:38:25.099 --> 00:38:28.760
to us using the free access to make money and
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:34.199
as a as a shadow of that that the the the real
00:38:35.369 --> 00:38:37.829
kind of sad thing that happened is that people
00:38:37.829 --> 00:38:40.949
now don't trust open data sets to, or they lost
00:38:40.949 --> 00:38:43.789
faith that the open data sets will stay open
00:38:43.789 --> 00:38:47.469
and available. It's now like, well, the worst
00:38:47.469 --> 00:38:49.030
thing that can happen to these open data sets
00:38:49.030 --> 00:38:51.630
is that they become commercially useful because
00:38:51.630 --> 00:38:55.789
then the commercial sources that use them have
00:38:55.789 --> 00:38:57.769
a reasonable chance of taking action to shut
00:38:57.769 --> 00:38:59.530
down other people's open access to them because
00:38:59.530 --> 00:39:02.230
they don't want the competition anymore. When
00:39:02.230 --> 00:39:05.630
Charles Arthur was the technology editor at The
00:39:05.630 --> 00:39:08.210
Guardian, getting these data sets open was a
00:39:08.210 --> 00:39:13.130
big campaign that he led. I remember, yeah. It's
00:39:13.130 --> 00:39:15.530
slightly ironic because James O'Malley is very
00:39:15.530 --> 00:39:18.550
much into the post office address file, which
00:39:18.550 --> 00:39:21.349
is the famous thing in Britain. I wrote about
00:39:21.349 --> 00:39:24.510
that in 1992, I think. Nobody has written about
00:39:24.510 --> 00:39:27.969
this. I mean, just very briefly, this is the
00:39:27.969 --> 00:39:31.840
famous file that has... basically the connection
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:34.639
between where each house is and the connection
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.340
between the postcode. And what happened was when
00:39:37.340 --> 00:39:39.320
they sold the post office off, instead of making
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:41.599
this data set public, which would have allowed
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:43.420
loads of people to do lots of interesting innovation,
00:39:43.619 --> 00:39:46.579
innovative media, when they sold it off to the
00:39:46.579 --> 00:39:48.559
post office, they said, oh, you can keep that
00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:52.219
and charge it. So for you to use that data, even
00:39:52.219 --> 00:39:54.789
for a short period. Even for a startup, it's
00:39:54.789 --> 00:39:56.210
some stupid amount of money that doesn't make
00:39:56.210 --> 00:39:59.869
any sense. So for years and years, people have
00:39:59.869 --> 00:40:02.449
been trying to add exactly in the manner that
00:40:02.449 --> 00:40:04.090
Ryan just said. People have been saying, can
00:40:04.090 --> 00:40:06.110
we use this commercially available data? No,
00:40:06.170 --> 00:40:08.949
because it's commercial. So no, you can't. There
00:40:08.949 --> 00:40:14.630
was a project for a while to build a competitor,
00:40:14.710 --> 00:40:18.989
basically the open street map to Google Maps.
00:40:19.660 --> 00:40:27.079
an open postal address file so that people could
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.420
actually have access to the data. And it turned
00:40:29.420 --> 00:40:33.519
out they called it digital cholera with the idea
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:36.119
that the upstream is poisoned and so nothing
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:39.420
you do will fix it. And no matter what they did,
00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:41.500
they had all sorts of techniques for generating
00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:44.920
addresses without consulting the postal office
00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:46.900
address file. But in the end, they just couldn't
00:40:46.900 --> 00:40:52.389
do it. Digital cholera, what a concept. Yeah,
00:40:52.389 --> 00:40:54.510
that's lovely. I think we've covered that. I
00:40:54.510 --> 00:40:57.570
thought it was a brilliant analogy. Oh, that's
00:40:57.570 --> 00:41:04.329
good. And for the last full story of the evening,
00:41:04.369 --> 00:41:07.190
we have Ian with a story about meeting the sad
00:41:07.190 --> 00:41:14.090
wives of AI. So I actually read this from Wired.
00:41:14.190 --> 00:41:16.630
I could say Wired's doing a great job recently,
00:41:16.929 --> 00:41:20.530
but I read it and I also... kind of comment on
00:41:20.530 --> 00:41:24.210
about it i commented on it um to be clear is
00:41:24.210 --> 00:41:27.510
it even they themselves say it's not not just
00:41:27.510 --> 00:41:29.469
wives but it's part you need to tell them what
00:41:29.469 --> 00:41:32.550
it is first yeah i'm about to i'm about to right
00:41:32.550 --> 00:41:36.710
so it's partners so what it is is that um someone
00:41:36.710 --> 00:41:41.869
in the relationship is um using ai or what usually
00:41:41.869 --> 00:41:46.000
programming ai so they're doing it um in their
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:48.880
work or they're doing it as a startup or they're
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:53.840
using it in some way and are using it a lot and
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:57.639
what they've noticed is that the conversations
00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:00.599
that they have with them the partner with the
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:05.179
the person who's who's using ai a lot tends to
00:42:05.179 --> 00:42:10.500
end up always about ai and it just becomes this
00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:16.349
kind of like endless drivel about ai and sometimes
00:42:16.349 --> 00:42:19.090
they're excited sometimes they're like frustrated
00:42:19.090 --> 00:42:21.929
but it's always about ai and then that's what's
00:42:21.929 --> 00:42:25.369
happening is that that's starting to also friends
00:42:25.369 --> 00:42:30.050
who are maybe you see for example the the couple
00:42:30.050 --> 00:42:34.289
go out for a meal with friends uh or for pint
00:42:34.289 --> 00:42:37.869
or something like that it always ends up talking
00:42:37.869 --> 00:42:42.159
about ai also because generally the friends also
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:46.420
their partner also is also involved in AI. And
00:42:46.420 --> 00:42:50.920
it just becomes this kind of like ongoing AI,
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:57.000
AI, AI. And it's a really interesting insight
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:00.420
into the partner who has to listen to this all
00:43:00.420 --> 00:43:04.659
the time and has to respond and just noticing
00:43:04.659 --> 00:43:10.329
how much AI is just... the words or any conversation
00:43:10.329 --> 00:43:13.809
just ends up in ai and i even i've noticed it
00:43:13.809 --> 00:43:16.849
with some of my friends uh who are just like
00:43:16.849 --> 00:43:19.949
within five minutes we start talking about ai
00:43:19.949 --> 00:43:22.789
and it's not it's not my i'm not deliberately
00:43:22.789 --> 00:43:25.130
doing it but i know other people are so i find
00:43:25.130 --> 00:43:28.550
it really really powerful um and really interesting
00:43:28.550 --> 00:43:31.469
and i think what i think also is that this is
00:43:31.469 --> 00:43:36.590
really I'll leave it at that. I got thoughts
00:43:36.590 --> 00:43:38.230
about it. I already have us making this point
00:43:38.230 --> 00:43:40.150
when we start off every one of our podcasts with
00:43:40.150 --> 00:43:43.349
the discussion of AI. The problem is, I'm not
00:43:43.349 --> 00:43:46.869
sure that this is unprecedented. As I recall,
00:43:46.949 --> 00:43:51.449
in the late 1970s, there was a coffee shop in
00:43:51.449 --> 00:43:53.250
Ithaca, New York, where everybody sat around
00:43:53.250 --> 00:43:56.170
and sang folk songs. And gradually, over about
00:43:56.170 --> 00:43:58.889
a year, the conversation shifted from singing
00:43:58.889 --> 00:44:03.530
folk songs to talking about computers. The people
00:44:03.530 --> 00:44:05.570
who wanted to sing were really frustrated because
00:44:05.570 --> 00:44:07.670
all the conversation kept being about computers,
00:44:07.889 --> 00:44:10.530
you know, or video games. You know, somebody
00:44:10.530 --> 00:44:12.489
discovers a new video game and that's the only
00:44:12.489 --> 00:44:14.929
thing they want to talk about. I mean, we've
00:44:14.929 --> 00:44:18.409
had obsessive people before. Anyway, a friend
00:44:18.409 --> 00:44:23.530
of mine says that the Wired article is not really
00:44:23.530 --> 00:44:25.809
surprising to people who read advice columns.
00:44:28.940 --> 00:44:31.599
I mean, okay, I do hear what you're saying. And
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:37.099
maybe I'm wrong, but it definitely, what I'm
00:44:37.099 --> 00:44:40.500
noticing is that, like, for example, I just sat
00:44:40.500 --> 00:44:43.179
and listened to kind of random conversations
00:44:43.179 --> 00:44:47.480
in other countries. So I was in Germany. And
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:49.300
to be fair, I was at Republica. So yes, that
00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:53.739
was a bit more technical. But even at public
00:44:53.739 --> 00:44:59.019
spaces, within five minutes. the conversation
00:44:59.019 --> 00:45:03.460
starts to talk about AI and starts to, or someone
00:45:03.460 --> 00:45:06.900
brings it up and it just won't leave. And I feel
00:45:06.900 --> 00:45:10.840
like it's a little bit different than, hey, maybe
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:13.340
the internet was probably, maybe a conversation
00:45:13.340 --> 00:45:15.460
that was something that people talked about a
00:45:15.460 --> 00:45:19.280
lot. But I've noticed that even people who have
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.960
almost like no connection to this because it's
00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:26.619
such a, it's just a thing that's... omnipresent
00:45:26.619 --> 00:45:34.280
in the ecosystem of human society. It just seems
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:36.860
to be, everything seems to center around AI.
00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:39.940
And it's kind of scary that it has got that.
00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:45.900
I have a folder of images that I use for meme
00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:47.599
stuff. And when I'm talking with people in shorthand,
00:45:47.619 --> 00:45:49.300
it's called Fun Randoms. And one of the oldest
00:45:49.300 --> 00:45:51.860
ones I have in there is a quote from this comedian
00:45:51.860 --> 00:45:55.619
called Nathan Anderson. And I think it proves
00:45:55.619 --> 00:45:57.760
Wendy right. And I'm just going to read this
00:45:57.760 --> 00:45:59.000
out real quick, and you're going to see where
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.389
it's going. And the quote is this. I have a level
00:46:02.389 --> 00:46:04.889
85 Dwarven Paladin and an 82 Shadow Priest, and
00:46:04.889 --> 00:46:06.769
I'm currently leveling a Warrior through Northrend,
00:46:06.829 --> 00:46:08.750
although I spend most of my time tanking instances
00:46:08.750 --> 00:46:11.130
in Dungeon Finder. I've held off getting the
00:46:11.130 --> 00:46:13.030
Mists of Pandaria because I got burnt out on
00:46:13.030 --> 00:46:14.690
endgame progression after Wrath of the Lich King,
00:46:14.750 --> 00:46:16.409
and the Cataclysm content is still new to me.
00:46:16.510 --> 00:46:19.269
Plus, Monks seem redundant to me in an era of
00:46:19.269 --> 00:46:21.590
dual specialization and viable hybrid DPS, and
00:46:21.590 --> 00:46:23.190
while I know they're well -established in the
00:46:23.190 --> 00:46:25.849
lore, Pandaren don't appeal to me. So I'm wrapping
00:46:25.849 --> 00:46:28.510
up a Tanooka questline in the Borean Trundra,
00:46:28.650 --> 00:46:30.869
trying to determine if I should go to Dragonbite
00:46:30.869 --> 00:46:33.389
or... Grizzly Hills, and now you know how I feel
00:46:33.389 --> 00:46:35.929
when you won't shut up about sports. Yeah, I
00:46:35.929 --> 00:46:39.590
totally get that. I've said that myself. Like,
00:46:39.590 --> 00:46:45.269
I think this is, as Wendy has said, I think this
00:46:45.269 --> 00:46:47.750
is an old problem. I just think that there are
00:46:47.750 --> 00:46:50.010
people who are going, I married a geek to never
00:46:50.010 --> 00:46:51.929
have to experience this, and then people are
00:46:51.929 --> 00:46:56.230
going, you've met geeks, haven't you? Right,
00:46:56.309 --> 00:47:01.409
okay. I've got a pushback on this. Okay. um the
00:47:01.409 --> 00:47:05.170
the one thing i would say okay so it's the wives
00:47:05.170 --> 00:47:10.610
of the partners of people who are using ai and
00:47:10.610 --> 00:47:15.010
the difference is that because of the push from
00:47:15.010 --> 00:47:19.309
like companies even when you're in you know if
00:47:19.309 --> 00:47:22.610
you're writing stuff with ai or you're just using
00:47:22.610 --> 00:47:25.389
it at work you're using copilot all these things
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:30.039
Everyone has an opinion where if, if you talk
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:33.900
about sports, you do get a number of people who
00:47:33.900 --> 00:47:36.760
do talk about sports a lot, but you don't get
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:40.679
like, everybody is different because man United
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:43.360
was never going to take your job away or kill
00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:47.760
your entire industry. Yes. Yes. I think, yeah,
00:47:47.860 --> 00:47:50.219
that's, that's, I think that's the, that's the
00:47:50.219 --> 00:47:51.840
thing where people are talking about, even people
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.280
who, who have like no connection to this stuff
00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:56.670
are like, oh they're worried they're hearing
00:47:56.670 --> 00:47:58.429
this stuff and they're worried and then they're
00:47:58.429 --> 00:48:01.809
forced to they're yeah there's leaderboards at
00:48:01.809 --> 00:48:04.010
work and stuff like that you know so i feel like
00:48:04.010 --> 00:48:06.489
there's something happening and i think like
00:48:06.489 --> 00:48:11.110
it's great marketing from the ai industry but
00:48:11.110 --> 00:48:13.610
i really hate it well i also think that there's
00:48:13.610 --> 00:48:17.090
a point here about how we basically make one
00:48:17.090 --> 00:48:19.730
responsible for the emotional labor and support
00:48:19.730 --> 00:48:23.059
of people in industries by default anyway so
00:48:23.059 --> 00:48:25.380
you could have a situation because most couples
00:48:25.380 --> 00:48:29.320
are working both because very few very few relationship
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.960
partners situations are ones where only the man
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:33.920
is working anymore like that's a really old stereotype
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:36.880
usually so the woman would be or you know the
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:39.039
partner would be at work all day probably having
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:41.659
to deal with emotional labor for people dealing
00:48:41.659 --> 00:48:43.780
with ai angst and then they come home and they're
00:48:43.780 --> 00:48:45.960
doing emotional labor for someone suffering from
00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:51.070
ai angst right yeah okay i mean i mean what interesting
00:48:51.070 --> 00:48:53.869
okay so this is the interesting point um based
00:48:53.869 --> 00:48:56.190
on what you just said so we already know that
00:48:56.190 --> 00:48:59.969
when a football when football's happening and
00:48:59.969 --> 00:49:05.010
the team loses the i'm going to use these stereotypes
00:49:05.010 --> 00:49:08.690
because it's easier for now that the the man
00:49:08.690 --> 00:49:11.250
gets domestic you don't have to do it that way
00:49:11.250 --> 00:49:13.070
you can just say domestic violence incidences
00:49:13.070 --> 00:49:15.630
increase right on the tail end of the sports
00:49:15.630 --> 00:49:18.449
victory So I'm wondering about... Or even a sports
00:49:18.449 --> 00:49:20.949
loss. Yeah, are we going to see something similar?
00:49:22.829 --> 00:49:25.409
I think it's already happening. Oh, yeah. World
00:49:25.409 --> 00:49:29.449
Cup's coming up, so probably. Great thing about
00:49:29.449 --> 00:49:31.190
the World Cup is you can... For some value of
00:49:31.190 --> 00:49:33.530
World Cup. The great thing about the World Cup
00:49:33.530 --> 00:49:35.750
is you can go out and bike because the streets
00:49:35.750 --> 00:49:39.789
are empty. Yeah, except no one can afford to
00:49:39.789 --> 00:49:42.909
actually go to the matches. No, but they're all
00:49:42.909 --> 00:49:45.329
home watching it on television. Oh, yeah, sure.
00:49:45.489 --> 00:49:47.690
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Wendy is right. I
00:49:47.690 --> 00:49:49.969
have literally seen TikToks from women talking
00:49:49.969 --> 00:49:52.130
about this great couple of hours during the day
00:49:52.130 --> 00:49:53.590
when they can just walk along the streets and
00:49:53.590 --> 00:49:56.789
like every and they and it's this point about
00:49:56.789 --> 00:50:01.760
it's not just that there's fewer people. It's
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:03.800
that the people who have been pulled off are
00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:06.539
the statistically higher likelihood of people
00:50:06.539 --> 00:50:08.400
to give them shit in the first place. That's
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:10.659
not what I was saying. I was talking about the
00:50:10.659 --> 00:50:12.920
roads being empty so you could bicycle places.
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:15.360
I think that's a valid thing that Ryan says.
00:50:16.820 --> 00:50:25.440
I spent some time with a friend. He was a man.
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:29.949
I wasn't watching. Yeah, we couldn't help but
00:50:29.949 --> 00:50:32.530
watch because he was shouting and screaming in
00:50:32.530 --> 00:50:35.090
front of the TV to watch Man United. And I was
00:50:35.090 --> 00:50:37.730
just like, holy shit, I actually feel a bit scared
00:50:37.730 --> 00:50:40.530
here. Have you seen Man United recently? I mean,
00:50:40.550 --> 00:50:42.610
that would make most people scream. I don't think
00:50:42.610 --> 00:50:49.190
there's a problem. I have not. All right. And
00:50:49.190 --> 00:50:52.670
last up for the podcast this time around is Any
00:50:52.670 --> 00:50:55.500
Other Business. Let's kick it off with Ian. Okay,
00:50:55.519 --> 00:50:58.079
so I just came back from public spaces in the
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:02.300
Netherlands. And you all get these kind of protocol
00:51:02.300 --> 00:51:07.599
wars and stuff like that. And this group got
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:11.159
together and they've called it the Open Social
00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:13.760
Platforms. And what they've done is that they've
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:18.940
kind of defined the protocols that... makes sense
00:51:18.940 --> 00:51:22.980
for an open social platform, for open social
00:51:22.980 --> 00:51:26.639
platforms. And it includes Activity Pub and it
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:29.579
includes AT Proto. So they can finally get on
00:51:29.579 --> 00:51:32.300
and not have these fights. But also the interesting
00:51:32.300 --> 00:51:35.480
part, it includes private messaging. And the
00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:38.900
recommendation there is Matrix, which makes a
00:51:38.900 --> 00:51:41.900
ton of sense. So I would definitely, I'll put
00:51:41.900 --> 00:51:46.619
a link to the whole thing and you should have
00:51:46.619 --> 00:51:52.179
a little look. That's it. I have two AOBs just
00:51:52.179 --> 00:51:53.880
from interesting things for this last month,
00:51:53.900 --> 00:51:56.559
little bits of delight. I attended last week
00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:58.940
the LDX3 conference, the Lead Dev Conference,
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:02.280
and it was just really good to see my peers again.
00:52:02.699 --> 00:52:06.059
And I know I talk a lot of negative stuff and
00:52:06.059 --> 00:52:07.380
I talk a lot of stuff about the industry, but
00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:09.420
being able to have a community of folks I can
00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:11.599
talk to has been one of the most valuable things
00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:13.320
for me. And it was just nice to be back. And
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:16.079
yes. Everyone was talking about AI. And the other
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:18.000
thing I want to point out is the Hugo nominees.
00:52:18.219 --> 00:52:22.420
The Hugo nominees have come out. And I am currently
00:52:22.420 --> 00:52:24.800
reading through them and enjoying them, except
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:27.320
that I have discovered that a classic, I have
00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:30.300
lost my tolerance for one of the all -time classic
00:52:30.300 --> 00:52:32.820
sci -fi tropes, which is utilized in this year's
00:52:32.820 --> 00:52:35.579
Hugo nominee, Drought by Adrian Tchaikovsky,
00:52:35.699 --> 00:52:38.739
which is the corporate dystopian future. Turns
00:52:38.739 --> 00:52:42.380
out I don't want to read that. because I feel
00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:44.579
like we're all living it right now. But the Hugo
00:52:44.579 --> 00:52:46.420
nominees are out, and I've read a bunch of them,
00:52:46.460 --> 00:52:47.780
and they're all really good. So if you want to
00:52:47.780 --> 00:52:49.300
go check them out, that's usually a fun way to
00:52:49.300 --> 00:52:52.880
indicate your reading records. David? Yeah, just
00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:55.579
the book I was talking about when my Kindle refused
00:52:55.579 --> 00:52:58.800
to load. It was called Super Infinite, Transformations
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:02.380
of John Donne. Just as a note, when you read
00:53:02.380 --> 00:53:05.489
that, it's spelled... D -O -N -N -E, but it's
00:53:05.489 --> 00:53:08.409
John Donne. So he's a sort of famous writer -poet
00:53:08.409 --> 00:53:11.889
from the 17th century. The book's by Catherine
00:53:11.889 --> 00:53:15.269
Rundle, and John Donne is considered the greatest
00:53:15.269 --> 00:53:18.030
writer of desire in the English language. What's
00:53:18.030 --> 00:53:20.110
interesting is it is pretty fresh -looking. I
00:53:20.110 --> 00:53:22.130
mean, it's sort of strangely sexual. You think,
00:53:22.190 --> 00:53:24.010
they didn't write that. Then did they? And the
00:53:24.010 --> 00:53:26.090
answer is, they did. And he had quite an interesting
00:53:26.090 --> 00:53:28.989
life. Great book. That's it. One more from Ian.
00:53:29.590 --> 00:53:32.869
Okay, so I literally just finished this on...
00:53:33.449 --> 00:53:38.769
a very long train journey um from that from well
00:53:38.769 --> 00:53:41.929
from manchester to amsterdam um which went on
00:53:41.929 --> 00:53:44.269
for like 11 hours but that's less about that
00:53:44.269 --> 00:53:46.949
but within that i also listened to an audio book
00:53:46.949 --> 00:53:49.909
um and the audio book is called moral ambition
00:53:49.909 --> 00:53:53.210
by i'm going to say try to say his name root
00:53:53.210 --> 00:53:59.219
rootker brigman okay there you go thank you very
00:53:59.219 --> 00:54:02.659
much um i actually was quite blown away by this
00:54:02.659 --> 00:54:05.219
because it talks a lot about it's a lot of things
00:54:05.219 --> 00:54:08.000
that i kind of be thinking about about you we're
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:12.239
measuring the wrong things and he he's talking
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:15.579
about like our lives you know like what are we
00:54:15.579 --> 00:54:17.920
you know he's trying to get more people to to
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:20.320
like actually give a shit about what they're
00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:23.369
doing and it's really hard right now people just
00:54:23.369 --> 00:54:26.269
taking a job that they can but like trying to
00:54:26.269 --> 00:54:28.809
find jobs that actually mean something rather
00:54:28.809 --> 00:54:33.369
than um what's that phrase jobs you know so i
00:54:33.369 --> 00:54:35.449
thought it's really powerful and i've i would
00:54:35.449 --> 00:54:39.170
recommend it that's it And that's it for another
00:54:39.170 --> 00:54:41.489
Tech Grumps. Just your friendly reminder before
00:54:41.489 --> 00:54:44.469
we say goodbye that you can find us at the hashtag
00:54:44.469 --> 00:54:47.590
Tech Grumps on pretty much all of the socials.
00:54:47.670 --> 00:54:50.750
And please do come and find us. We are always
00:54:50.750 --> 00:54:53.570
looking for people to join us to be grumpy about
00:54:53.570 --> 00:54:56.289
tech. And we would love to hear from you. And
00:54:56.289 --> 00:54:59.250
until we do, it's goodbye from Ryan. Goodbye.
00:55:00.269 --> 00:55:03.750
And from me, Wendy. And from me, David. And bye
00:55:03.750 --> 00:55:07.750
from me. Bye. Bye. Bye.