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Today on shared security, we're talking about flock cameras and automated license plate readers
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and how a system sold as a way to find stolen cars or serious suspects
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can quietly become everyday traffic enforcement and vehicle surveillance.
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Now the hook here is a recent story about police allegedly using a flock camera image to
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give a man a traffic ticket. Now that may sound minor compared with a serious crime investigation
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but that is exactly why it matters. Once communities install searchable camera networks the temptation
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is always to expand how they are used. So we'll look at how local camera networks can become
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regional or national surveillance tools, why policy promises like we don't use this for
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traffic enforcement can be fragile and what city residents and listeners should be asking
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before approving or renewing these systems in their own community. So joining me as always
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for this fun and exciting topic are my co-host Scott Wright and Kevin Tackett.
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Sorry for laughing like that. Right as we started I thought of the worst marketing slug possible
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for Scott's digital legacy stuff. Oh we're back on that again.
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Why because I'm fascinated by this digital legacy thing and I think it's awesome you're doing it
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right but you know what we could do like right in the middle of this episode we could say
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well you know the flock cameras that keep all this data and what happens that data
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when after you're dead let's ask Scott about your oh okay I like it not a tangent perfect
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yeah this one is this one not the tangent but yes for me this is a really interesting topic
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and I want to be very clear I was actually just talking about Brittany enough this is I struggle
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with the entirety of flock cameras both from I hate you and want to burn your buildings down
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to a I love what you're doing and I think it's amazing that you're helping
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right like it's this spectrum of you know emotional whatever I'm very very very I think
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everybody everybody who pays attention to me which most of you shouldn't but um anybody who
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pays attention to me knows I hate when we we do something because it protects children or
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you know we're trying to make you safer because my those words trigger this opinion of mine
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that it's just like no you're not right like like the minute you say I'm doing this to protect
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people in my my gut even if you're you really are my gut is you're a liar you're talking
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people I hate the government whatever you know whatever the rule is this has been one of the
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sins where you know we have if I may right we have this collection of cameras that have been
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spread out across at least the United States my understanding is they have they are elsewhere
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and we talk about flock cameras but it's very important to realize there are other companies
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doing this like for example everybody's ranting about flock cameras and a number of cities
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my understanding is this is a number of cities and towns have canceled their flock contract and
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then immediately signed a contract with I think it's axon axon or or another company like
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them and it's like wait you same thing politicians do right we solved the problem no you didn't
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you moved the problem right that's it um the problem here is we've spread out these cameras
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we've given a collection of private companies the right to monitor and video the public
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and I hope you heard the quotes and italics around that because we've all heard the story about the
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flock cameras aren't private property they're facing schools whatever um and then we trust them
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does that sound like experience to you um uh I have an issue with this now I want to preface
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all this with in the US I'm not speaking about anywhere else in the US we have no expectation
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of privacy in punk yep and two everybody talks about well you got your cell phone tracking you
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yes it does I think personally I think those are the key issues this guy being misidentified
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is awful and horrible and a natural issue with this type of behavior but it is not the issue
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the issue is the system was there to make the mistake in my opinion does that make like it
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like yeah that makes yeah and and and just one thing to just clarify the the case when I
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opened the podcast with that what we're talking about is a the Georgia State Patrol used its flock
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cameras to issue a motorcyclist a ticket because the flock camera saw him with his cell phone in
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his left hand while he was riding his motorcycle and in the community they clearly state that
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flock cameras will not be used for track traffic enforcement so it is a now we're seeing flock
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cameras used for more than what they originally said that flock says they're used for which is
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finding somebody that just murdered somebody drive away from a crime scene or very serious
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things but it's important to note that flock cameras are advertised not for traffic enforcement
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track enforcement is a totally there are cameras licensed plate plate cameras for traffic enforcement
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however those are typically disclosed to the citizens right that there's a sign on it that says
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automatic license plate detection or whatever and so this is a and we're seeing now flock
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cameras used for well police are using it to stalk their ex-girlfriends they're using it for all
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these other things that it was not intended for and no one's really holding our local governments
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or flock accountable for these types of things so I think the core issue here is lying it's always
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lying of course I like I get the biggest kick out of when you talk out of both sides of your
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face right and and we see this both by politicians by police officers and flock themselves
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and bluntly also by the people who are anti-flock right we see the same thing with them but it's
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like hey the only thing that this does is track license plate numbers that's it oh by the way
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we found 2000 missing people in july alone that's a quote the flocks website yes yes well yeah
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and when you look at those 2000 people that were missing a very large number of them were
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not found because they detected their license plate and they weren't wearing a license plate on them so
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right they were laundering down the side of the road and and my answer is
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I I love the idea you know I know people with dementia I dealt with that type of thing
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um I love the idea of hey grandma wandered out of the house we don't know where she is
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and having some way to turn that on we talked about that with ring and protect the puppies
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right I love that idea but if you start the discussion with a lie I can't trust anything
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that comes out your mouth after that and if if what we were discussing was whether or not
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you stopped the shelves at Publix with tomatoes I'm less concerned but when what we're talking about is
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we're monitoring every single thing that happens around the country yeah but trust us we're really
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honest except those times we're not that's where I have an issue with this that and that's
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going to get into constitutionality uh the lack of warrants and all that kind of stuff
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I the focus for me is you lie to start the conversation there is no reason to me to
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continue the conversation with you because you're a liar so and I'm not calling the politicians
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liars I mean we all know you have to tell politicians lying is is their mouth moving but
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flock is lying at the start and then everybody after that is either lying because they know better
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or just too dumb to catch the mistake and they're repeating it both would be bad yeah and and just
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so everyone's aware like this is a major major issue right now in this country and in fact like
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and based on the media I'm seeing reported about flock cameras like people are actually going
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to their city councils they're going to the mayor because there are sites now and we'll link
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them in our in our show notes of you know the deflux sites right that will tell you in your city
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where these flock cameras are and what they're being used for and like there is a lot of
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citizen revolts type of activity happening and in fact there's there's some cases already that
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people are taking sledgehammers to flock cameras they're destroying them physically because this
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has become a major major privacy issue for people because it is beyond just looking for criminals
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it is now being used in I mean we've talked about ice potentially using flock cameras we've seen
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you know this is the slippery slope that we always like to talk about of how maybe good
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intentions start but then enter into you know very very dangerous territory of now they're
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recording everything and police are going to use it for whatever they want or police will
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abuse it to use for like stalking ex-girlfriend say on you know these very serious types of
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privacy concerns so yeah and it goes on and on and on in fact there was another story
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that came out that flock wants to start adding phone tracking cell phone tracking to flock cameras
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that pick up you know not only the cell phones that are near or in your car or your air pods or
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you know any wireless signal it was a bluetooth and yeah wide right right tune yeah yeah one of
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the things that I think is important and and I I feel like I have to say this I have a a friend
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I met him my wife is was a good family friend of hers and then after I'm married obviously
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and they're great people and and I love these people and and and one of them is a cop okay and
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so I post on facebook about hey you know flock is bad and here's why and blah blah blah
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and and and he came back and he he gave a very good response of hey what about all of this
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and this and this and this and this and you know I think you're absolutely right but here's the thing
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that I'm concerned about and I actually watched a video of some city council meeting and I can't
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remember which one it was I apologize and and the sheriff was up on the you know the the
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tables and everything else like that and he was pissed and I understand why he was so angry
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right and he ranted about the fact that he had bled for the city and he had you know 20 or 30 years as
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the sheriff and he gave up holidays and family time and all this kind of stuff and now he's being
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attacked now he was being attacked my understanding is is because he bought the cameras through his
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budget without getting approval I'm not gonna comment on that because I don't know enough
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about their processes and stuff like that to say yay nay whatever but I think it's important
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for us to understand that the vast majority of people on the law enforcement side that are using this
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are using it with the idea that they're doing good like this guy can say like look I'm just trying
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to keep you safe I'm just trying to help you right so you want to attack me cool so next week
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when your car's stolen don't ask me to find it when your mom wanders out don't ask me to look
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for her right like he he was running and it's he felt personally and and I get that right because in
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his mind he's not this ogre that is telling people and doing bad things he's just trying to find the
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tools that enable him to do what he thinks is his job and that's where I go back to the
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yeah cool did you have a warrant did you wrestling yeah you don't mean that we have to
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don't lose sight and a lot of the people protesting flock cameras have lost sight of this right don't
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lose sight of the fact that the majority of the people here and thinking they're doing the right
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thing they're just using those words we all we all worry about what we're just trying to protect
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should yes for protecting the children or protecting yes you
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mobile apps are just part of everyday life now banking healthcare shopping entertainment
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you name it and with that comes a lot of trust because users are putting their personal data
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directly into your app but here's the reality mobile apps are a growing target a recent survey
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found that 72 percent of organizations experienced a mobile app security incident last year and 92
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percent say threats are only increasing and the way attackers are going after apps is pretty
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sophisticated they're reverse engineering them modifying them and redistributing fake versions
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through phishing campaigns side loading and even third-party app stores so from a user's
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perspective everything can look completely legitimate that's why taking a proactive
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approach to mobile app security really matters you want to stay ahead of these threats not react
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after the damage is done this is where guard square comes in they provide advanced protection for both
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android and ios apps along with automated security testing to catch vulnerabilities early
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and real-time threat monitoring so you can actually see what's happening out there if your mobile
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app is critical to your business and it probably is this is something worth paying attention to
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you can learn more at guard square dot com that's guard square dot com and i think that is the big
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debate because i you know i struggle with this too because like you mentioned earlier kevin like
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there are you know i want criminals to be caught like i do like i am not pro criminal like i got
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it right but i see the benefit right of especially in situations and there have been
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you know lost kids and you know all these things found through flock cameras there but there's also
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given the power that this technology has and the surveillance implications there also a lot
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of negative things i mean this is the big debate and so where as a society where do we go with
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this from this point forward because flock keep in mind these guys are a business they
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are here to make as much money as possible and they will continue to add features and functions and
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more surveillance tech to these things because law enforcement is buying them and and we could
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talk about the debate of how these things are being purchased because that's a whole other
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story oftentimes police are using discretionary budgets and things that don't have to go
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through a city council for approval which is also very dangerous because that's
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happening in a lot of communities today is like police want these cameras but yet the community
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doesn't and then now there is a friction point of well we don't want these in our community and
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it's getting heated it's getting very very heated so you know we don't have the answers
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to this but i think it is an important debate that we should all have and i think one of
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the things of you know i encourage people to look on these maps to you know like these
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deflox sites to see where these cameras are and if this is something concerning to you you should
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speak up you should speak up to your local representative and your governments and express
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your concerns about this because it is going beyond the original intent and i think this is
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kind of a turning point that we're seeing right now at least in the united states but
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but uh scott what's your opinion from the canadian perspective i was just gonna say you
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know i've seen more city council videos on youtube of uh between this and and data center
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yeah debates right welcome to the united states how do you decide you know what's the priority here
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right um but i think you're you're right there's certainly there's the good side and the bad
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side i guess the question is is there a balance you know is are the the promise and intent of
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the good motivations uh just a thinly veiled cover for you know somebody like mr. burns
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sitting in the back room and envisioning all the things that they might do with the data from
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these cameras and it also makes me think you know in the uk they they don't have notifications i don't
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think at least according to the all the bbc detective shows you know every every 20 meters
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there's uh everywhere yards there's there's a ccdv camera that will get get the anpr
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and uh and the face of who's driving it right i don't know if that's real or or not but i
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certainly don't get notifications uh in that context so i i don't know for sure but i i think
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i suspect that the malicious or selfish motivations are far far away the the good intent of the
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people that are trying to do good things so we do have to kind of hold those companies
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and the governments that are procuring those things accountable i would also point out just to
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throw another wrench into this whole thing is the disparity of how the cameras are rolled out
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i've seen a significant number of maps including of my local area where and and i will acknowledge
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the fact that the three middle-aged white guys are the ones talking about this but the fact that
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largely minority areas are where the the the majority of the cameras are rolled out
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and i've heard the racist trope well yeah but that's where the crime is yeah you're right if you
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monitor one section that's where you're gonna find crime because you're monitoring it but
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that to me is another aspect that has to be addressed here is if we're gonna roll out
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something like this and like i said like you said earlier we're not pro criminal if we have a legitimate
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good way to monitor for things and help prevent crime um that's awesome but let's not just target
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certain areas of town right right yeah yeah it's a really really good point so yeah so finally if
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i may not finally finally haha we're done um the last thing i wanted and i reserve the
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right to throw other things out there you know flock did update a lot of stuff and and while they
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don't claim the matter of fact they outright say that it's not because of all the uproar it's funny
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that it happened right after the uproar they have updated their public stance on things including
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uh their default was 30 days of retention of data their default and their recommendation to
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departments is now seven which oh that's cool right uh they also threw out they they put out a
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number of updates about um hey uh we're not gonna let people just abuse this uh but of course the
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way they're preventing that is still rife with abuse it's kind of like one of the things they
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talked about is you know data accuracy and and their answer about data accuracy is like well
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look it's up to the cop to really look at the data and see if it's right and it's like but but it's a
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tech right like yeah yeah no i and then and then like their idea of transparency is hey we have a
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transparency site but but it's up to the local area to determine whether or not they they use it
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right it's like guys you're basically just distracting this this doesn't actually solve any
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of the actual problems we're talking about um and that was my shade is that was released this
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morning i know that we're this isn't released until next monday so we're recording on the 13th
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if that helps oh yeah is one that happens and i say that because it because it's important except
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i expect flock to update and edit this response because it it really is a crappy response yeah
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wanted to just add another quick note while we're talking i was looking on uh just doing a search
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to see about if there are any flock cameras here in Ottawa where i am and um found the
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in the Ottawa reddit um it was only a couple months ago somebody posted that it's actually
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not just Ottawa that they're they're not using it specifically they're they're considering it
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but they do already have cruiser mounted license plate recognition stuff so as you said alternative
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ways oh yeah but an interesting comment on the post thread was that in the in different cities
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hundreds of cops are being suspended like yeah Toronto Toronto has like a total population
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i think around 3 million people 600 cops suspended from misuse wow just just according to some unofficial
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numbers posted in reddit right that's a lot and three or four other uh smaller cities with a hundred
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or more cops suspended which is pretty shocking that's that's incredible um now one of the things
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you commented earlier tom a little bit was the the people that are going around and
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destroying flock cameras and i want to caution everybody that based on my read and conversations
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with people who are very very pro flock destruction of cameras are 100 not allowed even if you're
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protesting unless you're in boston and you throw the flock cameras into the harbor that is the
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only place you're allowed to to destroy uh things in protest is boston and you have to
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throw them in the harbor okay huzzah huzzah just like uh you know just like the tea party yeah yeah
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if it's taxation without representation or flock cameras video recording without something yeah
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something or another yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and as you know this is we're just parroting here so
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don't listen to whatever kevin's going on for too long yeah yeah i think that's a great time to end
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the podcast so uh so yeah we will keep updated on this story this is a large large large topic
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obviously and we have only really just scratched the surface but if you are interested in in
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learning more about what's happening with flock cameras we'll link everything in the show notes
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for you really good like the 404 media podcast is covering this pretty much almost every episode
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and definitely check those guys out there they're kind of the leading reporters of what's going on
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flock right now and and we'll we'll link some other resources like the deflock website which
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you definitely should check out but uh but yeah with that i think that's all we have time for
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and until next time stay safe stay secure and stay private thank you for listening or watching
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if you like this episode hit subscribe share it with your friends and colleagues or jump
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into our community at sharedsecurity.net slash supporter to keep the conversation going thanks
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again and we'll see you next week for another episode of shared security
