Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
0:04
Welcome to Queer Devotions from rainbow faith and freedom. I'm Brigitt Pawliw-Fry. In season two, we a e releasing our most popular a d favorite episodes. Today s decolonizing gender guided y Hazim Ismail, a queer Musl m, non binary anth opologist who takes us thro gh the histories of how colo ization has imposed strict and iolent definitions on gend r, and sexuality. And Islam show us that there is this incr dible rich history of gend r fluidity and expression in o her contexts, and shows the ways in which religion and quee ness are not so at odds as they are often painted to be. This is such a core episode for me. nd I have just so deeply appr ciated learning from his team and their work and I'm exci ed for you to listen. Okay, welcome to the podcast today. His name How's it going?
Hazim Ismail:
1:02
I'm well, I am a little malnourished this morning. But I am well know,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:09
we can do it. We can break for a snack if you need.
Hazim Ismail:
1:13
Oh, no, I, I've got I'm gonna make myself a big meal after this, though. Okay, very good.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:19
Glad to hear it. So first, just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hazim Ismail:
1:24
I am a recent graduate from the University of Toronto. I graduated with a Master of Arts in anthropology, with a collaborative Master's in contemporary East and Southeast Asian Studies. I so I don't know what's the threshold when you start to consider yourself an anthropologist. But that is that has been my field for a while now. And I'm continuing my research, hopefully to PhD in anthropology as well. My prior research was a lot on Queer Studies and colonization, queer anthropology, and trying to shift that and apply what I learn in your studies to discard studies. So a little bit of a change from studying sexual sex, sexuality and gender but I'm really excited because now I get to combine Queer Studies with something more ecological environmental. Yeah, and I'm I didn't identify as non binary and queer and I use they them pronouns or dia we can talk about or not usage later, outside of English. And I am a former refugee, I am currently stateless. And what else? Yeah, I'm I'm, I'm bogus bouquets on my mother's side, and bouquets, Javanese and my mother's side and my father's side is Chinese. So between Malaysia and Indonesia, so yeah, thank you.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:00
So just turning to our discussion about spirituality, what faith traditions were part of your childhood and your coming of age?
Hazim Ismail:
3:11
I definitely grew up in a Muslim family. Very, my mother's very, I mean, she would continuously say she's not religious, but she is very religious. She used to say I'm a Muslim first, and then mother second. That's one of her that will go on her tombstone. Well, I Well, we don't really have any stones but but the Islam that we actually practice that we like, if you asked a lot of people in my communities, some were Muslim, Muslim, but the way materializes is very, and this word is very overused, but it does apply syncretic with pre colonial practices, for example, we would leave bones out after meals for gins, right. And people understand that as Oh, this is an Islamic thing because the jinns right, but that was prior to the arrival of Islam to the region and the 14th to 16th century depending on where in Southeast Asia these sort of things are really interesting because they kind of meld with our understanding of Islam. Right. And so that's so when I say I'm Muslim, I there's a lot of overlap with, with like, the Arab Muslim, but there's also a lot of things specific to to our community cultures of it's why you can't always tease culture away from religion, right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
4:48
And for those who don't know what is Socratic?
Hazim Ismail:
4:51
Socratic is basically like a combo a combination of different it is usually applied to religion. So a famous example is here in Canada with indigenous spiritualities. And religions. Combining with Christianity is typically Christianity here, but it could be other other faiths. And that's a form of syncretism as well. Thank you,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
5:25
thanks for defining that. That's, that's so fascinating. So early on, you witnessed and we're part of a very, very rich tradition that combined and was responsive to many different contacts Is that fair to say?
Hazim Ismail:
5:42
Mm hmm. And different, different ways of approaching Islam. Like my mother was very rigid, I will say like, she was very, very, like, rigid in what she followed. But my grandmother was. So like, in stark contrast, she was very, she really kept to our roots or Sulawesi bouquets roots. In her conceptualization of gender, she still held on to the idea that we had multiple genders, whereas my mother was very binary, the different, but they were both very, they were both very strong Muslims, right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
6:21
Very cool. So do you remember, in, in growing up or coming of age or whenever it was, Do you remember the first time you felt that your faith or spirituality was in conflict with your sexuality, or gender expression?
Hazim Ismail:
6:39
There were I don't think there was like, one moment or anything, it just sort of chipped away at how I made sense in the world over time, you know, teenage years, definitely wear trips to the city. And I would sort of, oh, wow, like, look at those people. They're dressed like that, I want to dress like that. And my mother would say, No, you're, you're a man, you can't dress like that, right. And then I would, in my head, it would be like, but when I was a kid, but when my grandmother, let me wear her clothes, you know, like, just sort of Hawaii, I don't understand, you know, and questioning these things. And then starting, I went to business school, back home. And that's when I did a lot of like, exploring, going to the clubs, and then having that and everybody there was like, screw, religion, screw whatever. Like, we, like, their conceptualization of those spaces of gender and sexuality were very much closer to like a Western framework, which is, for me, in that kind of space is neither good nor bad. It's just having the autonomy to decide, right? And that, but for me, also, like, but I am I still a Muslim, if I do this, you know, like that kind of kind of questioning. And I did go through a phase where I was like, I'm an atheist. And, and I didn't really gel on me, because I felt like I was discarding a lot of pieces of me in the process. So yeah, so that was, that was, it's still a lot of work to do. Nobody's a complete human, everybody's still working on themselves. And I'm enjoying adulthood more, because I'm realizing that now I have more time and more headspace, especially in a pandemic, actually to, to consolidate whatever misgivings I had about these different parts of myself, right. So.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
8:50
So you've described already multiple conceptions of gender and sexuality you witnessed growing up, including differences between your grandmother and your mother. And we often talk about gender and sexuality, as if there's one understanding or there's a universal understanding. So what does it mean to say that there are multiple definitions and understandings of gender and sexuality across the world?
Hazim Ismail:
9:17
Well, gender and sexuality First of all, we often pair the two together, they're not always together, right? So they can be detached from one another. So I think when we say that they're different in different places, we are referencing the fact that colonization and imperialism impose the hegemonic understanding of the beast, you know, that is prevalent today of man, this woman heteronormativity. And even when we talk about queerness, it's, it's it's centered in a Western framework, right? So when we say there are different conceptualizations, we're, we're referencing a point in time, that there were different conceptualizations. And due to the processes of colonization and imperialism, they were either enforce or coerce or institutionally kind of snuffed out. To become this binary that we know today, right? That's for gender and for sexuality. It's, it's heteronormativity, right? Yeah, so it's sort of like it's a callback basically. So when we say like it when, when we, when we do that, we're referencing that point in time, but it's also a call to action for autonomy to decide, construct things outside of a Western framework. So there, if you go online, it's a very simplistic map, and this will be on the RF website. Because it's a resource I submitted. It's a map of gender diversity around the world. And again, be cautious with the map because some of the things are still at Colonial terms, but it does give you a glimpse as to how different communities around the world conceptualize gender beyond man and woman. Right. A really good example, and I'll give her I don't know whether I should talk about this now. But a really good example of how colonization really took out gender diversity from the community would be far off in a in Samoa, and how its associated with Margaret Meads destructive work and some and how that informed the colonial government to, to kind of impose heteronormativity right. But for FEMA, in the MOA be sued for my communities. Were Buddhist communities. You have warrior outs in Java, you have Qatari in Thailand to spirit communities here. You have or in Navajo you have Natalie. And there aren't, I think I there are a lot of there are more examples in Europe, but I think because your has long been it's, it's also sad, like, been subject to head on maternity for longer, even prior to colonization of the rest of the world. It's a little hard to trace. But a good recent one would be bernetta in Albania. So there's a lot of there's so much around the world. And the stories are there. I talked to my friend in Nigeria. And I was like, You have something like, even similar or something that's not ignoring Western and then, you know, my friends were like, yeah, my grandfather used to talk about this, you know, these people this this is, their, their their stories are there is we don't make space for it. Right. So. Yeah. I don't know where I'm going. It's a topic that I have so much to say about, but I'll stop there for now. Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
13:14
Thank you. So there are organizations that are working to help gender non conforming people, but how do they kind of make sure that they're validating non Western gender expressions and identities?
Hazim Ismail:
13:30
I think the first thing is to not assume and to make space. And people will not always have a terms for it, because some things are not translatable. But if you're making this space, it can be articulated, I think, when you have a rigid, I see this with the immigration system, for example, where they're trying to, in a way make the the refugee claims process for queer migrants more inclusive, but the categories and the way they decide whether someone's a valid, you know, like, queer or not, because they do try to validate your queerness is really rigid accord, like rigid and alignment with Western frameworks, because there's no they're not providing space is there's no like, short prompt here to tell us your story. And people have different ways of telling stories, right? Or articulating their sexuality, their gender. So that's the first thing. And two is to focus on material supports over this idea that you have to educate people. Because that's imperialism at work, right? This idea that you have the knowledge and then you you're going to, that's its imperialism and Savior ism, and then you're going to impart that knowledge, right? Like somebody who is a toy in Thailand, the word ladyboy is often used as derogatory. So a lot of people try to use cutaway in Thailand. So people know who they are. Right? People know, their own subjectivity. They know what their lives are, they know what it means to be cowboy. Some NGO comes along and says, Wait, I don't understand, are you trans? Are you like, Are you gay, like, you're a ladyboy, you know, like, you're not making space and this and then furthermore, you're, you know, like, some NGOs, or some whoever's working will say, I want to help you, but like, here's a human rights framework, you gotta be either gay, or lesbian or like, so that they can, like, you know, properly ascertain that you're queer, right? So this sort of this expression of, of Thai cutaway does not map accurate, accurately on to a Western framework. And that means that you can have, like, you know, you can be denied a refugee claim or access to certain things and support that you need. So that's why to say, don't focus on China, like say, oh, you're this or you're that or telling people who they are, focus in providing material support. So material is money, space, housing, you know, these sort of things. Because that's, that's building on my primary thing, which is providing space space isn't just space to talk spaces, sort of the headspace, the material needs being met, you're not hungry, you're not poor, because a lot of people who work here are going to be more susceptible to poverty and homelessness, and, you know, medical supports these, the focus on these things over this idea that you have to educate. That's, that's a, that's a big thing is I to fight NGO imperialism is to just just, you know, like, give them money, like, give them what they need to live, and then you can start after that, you know?
Unknown:
17:07
Mm hmm. Because
Hazim Ismail:
17:20
when you're financially and materially grounded, and and stable, you're more capable of asserting yourself. That's, that's a, that's a big thing as I fight NGO imperialism is to just just, you know, like, give them money, like, give them what they need to live, and then you can start after that, you
Unknown:
17:46
know. Mm hmm.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
17:54
And, to my mind it, it also recalls, it's sort of, like on the NGOs, charms, and there is a weird permission structure, it seems to be at work. And I'm curious, and this is sort of, a little bit further afield from what we're going to talk about, but why there's such a hesitancy I mean, obviously, there's, we're talking about the, you know, imperialism of the NGOs, but the hesitancy to sort of believe, and grant material support, versus first get this kind of assurance that they're granting it to the right people, like there's such a, and then that hesitancy, of course, as is, you know, mired in this all of this context, but it's just, you know, we've seen it time and time again, and I guess, what are what are some radical models that you've been that you've observed, that are doing this work that are first granting that material? support, rather than asking for a kind of Western? You know, identity?
Hazim Ismail:
19:04
Well, it's, it's, it's hard, because a lot of things will, you know, have to abide by the nation state apparatus, right, like, the immigration system is one of one of those tools. So, partly, like, you kind of have to navigate how to like, you know, get people through these sort of systems, but also give autonomy. A good example would be when I was living in Winnipeg treaty one, there's quite a bit of really cool to spirit kind of cooperation and coordination with Muslim communities and like a lot of like newcomer communities, so there was a support group that used to function. I don't know whether they're still doing it. But for a while they work because there was an increase in asylum seekers and They were operating out of sunshine house. And they were just, they didn't do any questioning whenever they're like, What do you need? Like? That's the first question, what do you need, and then next thing you want, right? And people have different needs people everyone wants. And there's a whole team of people, these are volunteers, community, providing community. And it's grounded in to spirit organization, right? sunshine house. And so one of the things that would often be needed was a letter of support for your refugee claim. And so there would be this whole network of people of like, Okay, I'm gonna write your letter, I'm gonna write a letter, I'm gonna write a letter, there was no like, are you really gay? Or you're not like, because the immigration system is already doing that, right? In a not so great way, but I think that's one of the ways people are trying to, like, sidestep or navigate the limitations of, of like, okay, we want to provide as much space as possible, but then you have to get through the the systems where there is immigration or some sort of healthcare, you know, system where they're not maybe understanding of trans non binary be su idre identities, and you want to help them get the things that they needed. Somebody needs hormones, how do you get them to hormones, right? Yeah, like, that's an example of memorization. in Winnipeg. So and there's a lot of, there's quite a number around the world where places, sanctuary cities often try to have this policy Toronto is technically one, but it's not the greatest of falling through on a sanctuary city policy. The reason why I mentioned that a sanctuary city policy means that you don't question somebody's immigration status. And part of that is also sort of the same philosophy of like, not questioning like somebody's, like gender or using this this man woman binary to determine whether someone's more Oh, yeah, you look like a woman. So you're more susceptible to this, you know, or were quoted as this or square? So? Oh, yeah. Must be, you probably have HIV, these sorts of things. Right. So yeah, I know, there's, in healthcare, there's a lot of examples of people doing that work, to just have this openness. So people can assert themselves without, without sacrificing the supports in a need. Right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
22:38
So what are some misconceptions about religion and gender diversity and how they work together?
Hazim Ismail:
22:44
I think the misconception is that they don't work together, right? Cuz people position religion as archaic and part of the path. And people position this often Western gender diversity as like a bastion of progress. And we were so happy. Like, I guess in terms of maybe in the States, it would be a democratic kind of here's, like, a liberal NDP, sort of we celebrate when. And it's reason to celebrate, obviously, like, we get a trans MP person, you know, things like this, or are non binary. In the US, you haven't now a non binary lawmaker, the first one, right? And these things are great. But I think people when they see this, like this non binary non binary lawmaker in the US, is also Muslim, right. And some media reporting do not mention a Muslim or some media reporting only mentioned the Muslim they don't mention the non binary. So that's a kudos to the ones that you mentioned both because I think it's really important because it does tackle this misconception that they're not compatible for my communities, who gives these two and the other genders like auto na macoun ry para la intellia by we've been practicing Islam as part of our specialization has gender for centuries now. And nothing is a utopian. You know, nothing is utopian in the world. So every community has a lot of things to work out. But there is a definitely a place for gender plurality right alongside Islam. And I think that's one conception where they don't, they don't gel together, right. And also texts, religious texts like the Quran. I don't know too much about the Bible or Torah. But at least for the Quran, there is quite a bit of space for interpretation and a lot of interpretation in the past. Muslim communities like dominantly have been very patriarchal and but now a lot of people like in the US, you know, the organization muslims for progressive while they identify as progressive Muslims, but it could be muslims for progressive voices, something like that, the that kind of advocate for a more open interpretation, right. So people can, like, have ease about being a Muslim and being non binary, for example. And I think that's really beautiful and, and really great direction and kind of conversation that wouldn't have happened in the past 10 years. So it's, it's always in development that lawyers are tackling this and I know RF is trying to do that as well and make space for that. And yeah, so I, I think that's one conception misconception that they don't go together. And or that religion is oppressive to gender diversity went from me, at least from an academic standpoint, and as a, like a former refugee and stateless person, it is a state apparatus, which is the obstruction and not the religion, right. Now,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
26:22
you described earlier on in this conversation, the difference in pronouns in English versus other languages, do you want to just talk about that briefly about how pronouns work for yourself when you're operating in different worlds or in different languages?
Hazim Ismail:
26:42
Well, so I speak Bahasa and bogans, in addition to English, and these two languages are Estonian languages, and most if not all, as region languages are genderless. So the way pronoun usage spans across the languages of the world, they trickle down to three basic forms for pronouns, one is grammatical gender, so English would be a grammatical gender language, so you do have he have seen, but they don't need to correspond to the verb, right? In a clinical proper way, France, French, and Spanish. They're what linguists call quote, unquote, I don't like this term, but it's called they call it natural gender. So the pronoun has to correspond with the verb, right? So you have masculine and feminine, there's a whole history around how masculine or feminine came about that isn't super tied to conceptualizations of gender, but this is how where we are today with those languages. And then you have gender lists, which do not have, so I use dia, to refer to anybody who's not a he's not a she is just, you know, a person and it could also be a nonhuman person, or like, non human being, that you're referring to. And most, over half of the world's languages are genderless. Right? So it really speaks to, to kind of, like, what is the dominant, you know, like, like forum for pronouns around the world is actually genderless that that is a dominant, but we are bound to binaries in a way and, um, but that's not to say that if you're using a language or your, your language is is, is very binary, like, if it was French, or Spanish, or hindi, hindi is technically a natural gender language, it doesn't mean that you can't assert your non gender conforming identities. Cujo, communities in India, have long been able to navigate, like the binary pneus of Hindi so that they are validating themselves, right? That could be tweaks that could be alterations here and there, whatever it is, in terms of syntax, so that you actually have a language that works for you, instead of you working to fit into a binary that's what I mean by pronouns. Like there's, there's some when I use like bei them, I'm also thinking like, Well, sometimes they don't feels like an other, like a third tender, just kind of want to be tender, less so like, yeah, in in Bahasa that I use, it just means like, you know, this is a sentient being, you know. And that's, that's nice. It's not I don't want to romanticize it, but it, it feels very, very nice to have that space, you know.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
29:57
Well, and it's interesting to hear people who Come at, like, they then pronouns in a Western context from this feeling like, Oh, this is how our language is. And that's a kind of destiny. So therefore, it cannot be changed. And, and like even said the way that French pronouns like the natural, it's very there, I think it sounds like sometimes people are wedded to this feeling like language is destiny, and it shows who we are. But I mean, we just know language changes, language is constantly evolving, it is this thing that we've created, to speak to one another. And it, of course, is, like, you know, the language I'm speaking today is because there was a Norman Conquest, and then it married, you know, two different Judah very different set of languages. And so, I think hearing here he described this, in my mind, just recalls the way that some people think of it is this very static, very naturalized thing that almost emerged out of nowhere to predict how we can talk to one another versus this thing that is always evolving and can always be made more expensive. And there's always I think there's what excites me too, is that there are always more words, like we're always making up new words. And there's no, there's no limit there. And so that, yeah, but that's really cool. Thanks for thanks for talking about pronouns and stuff.
Hazim Ismail:
31:25
Or you said it really nicely. And I'm very, like, I was just kind of ranting on. But I think you said it really perfectly. Like language is not static, right? And if not static, you have room to assert yourself if it's not working for you. And if enough people do that, then you have a language change. Right?
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
31:47
completely, totally. And also knowing to who are the Vanguard's of language? I mean, there's a lot I think they say teenage, like, female identifying people are often at the vanguard, we just have seen a lot of black women be at the vanguard of creating language that is, you know, suddenly very popular. So there is constant, I guess, creation.
Unknown:
32:15
happening all the time.
Hazim Ismail:
32:17
Yeah. That's exciting. It's nice, though. Like, maybe 10 years ago, they them would not have been as normalized as it is today. Right? Oh, so it's, it's, it's like, I think, earlier this year, Manitoba, now you can have them on your Manitoba IDs and your driver's license. And that's thanks to Zuma, who is black, and MP or MLA for Union Station. So really, really great person, and used to be part of that group that would function out of sunshine house to provide supports for newcomers, for queer asylum seekers? So yeah, like, you, you're right, like, that a lot of this comes from black communities and their innovations of language, right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
33:21
And not to get into the way that then it's, you know, people who make a profit off of it. We're not going to get into that combo today. But yeah, there's a lot there. There's a lot out there. So finally, I really like this final question, just because it, I think, can put into people's mind again, this opening the space of possibility, which is what does decolonizing gender mean to you?
Hazim Ismail:
33:47
It's a it is a big question. It's, it's decolonization is you so much, right? But I think because what is the what the the opposite of decolonization is common? Is it colonizing? So, colonization imposed binaries and oppose certain dominant understandings of gender and sexuality? So for me, it's, it's one, the first step is undoing that as much as you can, you'll never be able to undo everything. But I'm doing as much as you can, and then to having the autonomy to decide what to do then. Right. Where to move forward. So when I say I do, I mean, undo the damage, right? I don't mean like, okay, now that the West has introduced non binary units, oh, no, you can't be non binary anymore, because we're decolonizing. No, it means undoing the damage of like, Oh, no, I grew up being forced to either be a man or woman or being forced to be a man or being forced to be a woman. And now, okay, that's Don't try to work on Doing the damage that that has done. But then the next step is having the space to decide what to do after and having the supports not just space but support to go in a direction that you need to to do for healing, I think it was, Malcolm X was famously quoted, I'm gonna fumble the quote a bit, but the he mentioned about reparations for black women in in the North American context that, like, reparations isn't just pulling the knife out of the back, but also, like being a part of the healing of the wounds right. And so I think decolonization is that entire process from the pulling out of the knife, which means I'm doing the damage like that could be that. But then being part of the healing and making space, how do you want to heal? Which direction do you want to heal and that's for me, be colonization, because when you're able to dissenter yourself, at least on the part of like a settler person or colonizer whatever, somebody in a dominant power position, is to just be center and provide support and for people who are on the receiving Africanisation to, to have to assert yourself, and to have that autonomy, and you get to you get to decide for yourself and for your communities, what's needed to move forward, right, and a healthy way. And if that means, and it often does mean, taking concepts that are associated with being Western and what might be your own, like traditions, together, that's perfectly fine. As long as that's you being, you know, you right, you have a space to be used. So if you, a lot of people are trans and Two Spirit, try to transfer and be super non binary and be super trans and Hydra, you know, this, this is perfectly fine. They're not incompatible. It's, it's all about the cons, I think. decolonization is about having a space, taking space, making space, space, space, space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:18
space, space. And for those folks, such as myself, or settlers, you're like, like you said, decentering, kind of, it's like, and I'm trying to think of like a metaphor here. But when there is space for other people, that means taking a step back decentering oneself so that I mean, those two things have to go hand in hand for for others to to make space into. Yeah, like you said, for that for that healing to take place.
Unknown:
37:51
Mm hmm.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:53
Yeah, well, I really, I really, thank you his name. This has been such a lovely conversation. I've really learned a lot. I have really enjoyed talking to you about all of this. I want there to be so many more podcasts. And I really, I really appreciate your time today.
Hazim Ismail:
38:11
Thank you for taking time and making space. Space should just end we should just end by chanting space, space space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:25
shall we? We can, we can absolutely do that. That can be our our final offering one.
Unknown:
38:31
All right. space, space, space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:34
space, space, space, space, space. Thanks. which I feel is fun.
Unknown:
38:41
Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:43
Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
Unknown:
38:50
Thank you, as well.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:54
Thank you so much for listening. And thanks again to Xen for sharing this really valuable history that I think there's always so much more to understand and to learn about. So I've linked a few helpful resources in the show notes. Next week. Next Tuesday, we will be hearing from Sheldon weisbecker, or better known as Carmen del Rey, the superstar drag queen who is going to be talking about navigating Judaism alongside queerness. So the show is all about featuring personal stories about people navigating queerness alongside their spirituality and how that intersects with politics. And if you have a story you'd like to share, please give me an email. My email is be polu fry at rainbow faith and freedom.org. The as in Brigitte, PA w Li w hyphen fry at rainbow faith and freedom.org and I'd love to hear from you. Thanks so much. And please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
0:04
Welcome to Queer Devotions from rainbow faith and freedom. I'm Brigitt Pawliw-Fry. In season two, we a e releasing our most popular a d favorite episodes. Today s decolonizing gender guided y Hazim Ismail, a queer Musl m, non binary anth opologist who takes us thro gh the histories of how colo ization has imposed strict and iolent definitions on gend r, and sexuality. And Islam show us that there is this incr dible rich history of gend r fluidity and expression in o her contexts, and shows the ways in which religion and quee ness are not so at odds as they are often painted to be. This is such a core episode for me. nd I have just so deeply appr ciated learning from his team and their work and I'm exci ed for you to listen. Okay, welcome to the podcast today. His name How's it going?
Hazim Ismail:
1:02
I'm well, I am a little malnourished this morning. But I am well know,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:09
we can do it. We can break for a snack if you need.
Hazim Ismail:
1:13
Oh, no, I, I've got I'm gonna make myself a big meal after this, though. Okay, very good.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:19
Glad to hear it. So first, just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hazim Ismail:
1:24
I am a recent graduate from the University of Toronto. I graduated with a Master of Arts in anthropology, with a collaborative Master's in contemporary East and Southeast Asian Studies. I so I don't know what's the threshold when you start to consider yourself an anthropologist. But that is that has been my field for a while now. And I'm continuing my research, hopefully to PhD in anthropology as well. My prior research was a lot on Queer Studies and colonization, queer anthropology, and trying to shift that and apply what I learn in your studies to discard studies. So a little bit of a change from studying sexual sex, sexuality and gender but I'm really excited because now I get to combine Queer Studies with something more ecological environmental. Yeah, and I'm I didn't identify as non binary and queer and I use they them pronouns or dia we can talk about or not usage later, outside of English. And I am a former refugee, I am currently stateless. And what else? Yeah, I'm I'm, I'm bogus bouquets on my mother's side, and bouquets, Javanese and my mother's side and my father's side is Chinese. So between Malaysia and Indonesia, so yeah, thank you.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:00
So just turning to our discussion about spirituality, what faith traditions were part of your childhood and your coming of age?
Hazim Ismail:
3:11
I definitely grew up in a Muslim family. Very, my mother's very, I mean, she would continuously say she's not religious, but she is very religious. She used to say I'm a Muslim first, and then mother second. That's one of her that will go on her tombstone. Well, I Well, we don't really have any stones but but the Islam that we actually practice that we like, if you asked a lot of people in my communities, some were Muslim, Muslim, but the way materializes is very, and this word is very overused, but it does apply syncretic with pre colonial practices, for example, we would leave bones out after meals for gins, right. And people understand that as Oh, this is an Islamic thing because the jinns right, but that was prior to the arrival of Islam to the region and the 14th to 16th century depending on where in Southeast Asia these sort of things are really interesting because they kind of meld with our understanding of Islam. Right. And so that's so when I say I'm Muslim, I there's a lot of overlap with, with like, the Arab Muslim, but there's also a lot of things specific to to our community cultures of it's why you can't always tease culture away from religion, right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
4:48
And for those who don't know what is Socratic?
Hazim Ismail:
4:51
Socratic is basically like a combo a combination of different it is usually applied to religion. So a famous example is here in Canada with indigenous spiritualities. And religions. Combining with Christianity is typically Christianity here, but it could be other other faiths. And that's a form of syncretism as well. Thank you,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
5:25
thanks for defining that. That's, that's so fascinating. So early on, you witnessed and we're part of a very, very rich tradition that combined and was responsive to many different contacts Is that fair to say?
Hazim Ismail:
5:42
Mm hmm. And different, different ways of approaching Islam. Like my mother was very rigid, I will say like, she was very, very, like, rigid in what she followed. But my grandmother was. So like, in stark contrast, she was very, she really kept to our roots or Sulawesi bouquets roots. In her conceptualization of gender, she still held on to the idea that we had multiple genders, whereas my mother was very binary, the different, but they were both very, they were both very strong Muslims, right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
6:21
Very cool. So do you remember, in, in growing up or coming of age or whenever it was, Do you remember the first time you felt that your faith or spirituality was in conflict with your sexuality, or gender expression?
Hazim Ismail:
6:39
There were I don't think there was like, one moment or anything, it just sort of chipped away at how I made sense in the world over time, you know, teenage years, definitely wear trips to the city. And I would sort of, oh, wow, like, look at those people. They're dressed like that, I want to dress like that. And my mother would say, No, you're, you're a man, you can't dress like that, right. And then I would, in my head, it would be like, but when I was a kid, but when my grandmother, let me wear her clothes, you know, like, just sort of Hawaii, I don't understand, you know, and questioning these things. And then starting, I went to business school, back home. And that's when I did a lot of like, exploring, going to the clubs, and then having that and everybody there was like, screw, religion, screw whatever. Like, we, like, their conceptualization of those spaces of gender and sexuality were very much closer to like a Western framework, which is, for me, in that kind of space is neither good nor bad. It's just having the autonomy to decide, right? And that, but for me, also, like, but I am I still a Muslim, if I do this, you know, like that kind of kind of questioning. And I did go through a phase where I was like, I'm an atheist. And, and I didn't really gel on me, because I felt like I was discarding a lot of pieces of me in the process. So yeah, so that was, that was, it's still a lot of work to do. Nobody's a complete human, everybody's still working on themselves. And I'm enjoying adulthood more, because I'm realizing that now I have more time and more headspace, especially in a pandemic, actually to, to consolidate whatever misgivings I had about these different parts of myself, right. So.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
8:50
So you've described already multiple conceptions of gender and sexuality you witnessed growing up, including differences between your grandmother and your mother. And we often talk about gender and sexuality, as if there's one understanding or there's a universal understanding. So what does it mean to say that there are multiple definitions and understandings of gender and sexuality across the world?
Hazim Ismail:
9:17
Well, gender and sexuality First of all, we often pair the two together, they're not always together, right? So they can be detached from one another. So I think when we say that they're different in different places, we are referencing the fact that colonization and imperialism impose the hegemonic understanding of the beast, you know, that is prevalent today of man, this woman heteronormativity. And even when we talk about queerness, it's, it's it's centered in a Western framework, right? So when we say there are different conceptualizations, we're, we're referencing a point in time, that there were different conceptualizations. And due to the processes of colonization and imperialism, they were either enforce or coerce or institutionally kind of snuffed out. To become this binary that we know today, right? That's for gender and for sexuality. It's, it's heteronormativity, right? Yeah, so it's sort of like it's a callback basically. So when we say like it when, when we, when we do that, we're referencing that point in time, but it's also a call to action for autonomy to decide, construct things outside of a Western framework. So there, if you go online, it's a very simplistic map, and this will be on the RF website. Because it's a resource I submitted. It's a map of gender diversity around the world. And again, be cautious with the map because some of the things are still at Colonial terms, but it does give you a glimpse as to how different communities around the world conceptualize gender beyond man and woman. Right. A really good example, and I'll give her I don't know whether I should talk about this now. But a really good example of how colonization really took out gender diversity from the community would be far off in a in Samoa, and how its associated with Margaret Meads destructive work and some and how that informed the colonial government to, to kind of impose heteronormativity right. But for FEMA, in the MOA be sued for my communities. Were Buddhist communities. You have warrior outs in Java, you have Qatari in Thailand to spirit communities here. You have or in Navajo you have Natalie. And there aren't, I think I there are a lot of there are more examples in Europe, but I think because your has long been it's, it's also sad, like, been subject to head on maternity for longer, even prior to colonization of the rest of the world. It's a little hard to trace. But a good recent one would be bernetta in Albania. So there's a lot of there's so much around the world. And the stories are there. I talked to my friend in Nigeria. And I was like, You have something like, even similar or something that's not ignoring Western and then, you know, my friends were like, yeah, my grandfather used to talk about this, you know, these people this this is, their, their their stories are there is we don't make space for it. Right. So. Yeah. I don't know where I'm going. It's a topic that I have so much to say about, but I'll stop there for now. Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
13:14
Thank you. So there are organizations that are working to help gender non conforming people, but how do they kind of make sure that they're validating non Western gender expressions and identities?
Hazim Ismail:
13:30
I think the first thing is to not assume and to make space. And people will not always have a terms for it, because some things are not translatable. But if you're making this space, it can be articulated, I think, when you have a rigid, I see this with the immigration system, for example, where they're trying to, in a way make the the refugee claims process for queer migrants more inclusive, but the categories and the way they decide whether someone's a valid, you know, like, queer or not, because they do try to validate your queerness is really rigid accord, like rigid and alignment with Western frameworks, because there's no they're not providing space is there's no like, short prompt here to tell us your story. And people have different ways of telling stories, right? Or articulating their sexuality, their gender. So that's the first thing. And two is to focus on material supports over this idea that you have to educate people. Because that's imperialism at work, right? This idea that you have the knowledge and then you you're going to, that's its imperialism and Savior ism, and then you're going to impart that knowledge, right? Like somebody who is a toy in Thailand, the word ladyboy is often used as derogatory. So a lot of people try to use cutaway in Thailand. So people know who they are. Right? People know, their own subjectivity. They know what their lives are, they know what it means to be cowboy. Some NGO comes along and says, Wait, I don't understand, are you trans? Are you like, Are you gay, like, you're a ladyboy, you know, like, you're not making space and this and then furthermore, you're, you know, like, some NGOs, or some whoever's working will say, I want to help you, but like, here's a human rights framework, you gotta be either gay, or lesbian or like, so that they can, like, you know, properly ascertain that you're queer, right? So this sort of this expression of, of Thai cutaway does not map accurate, accurately on to a Western framework. And that means that you can have, like, you know, you can be denied a refugee claim or access to certain things and support that you need. So that's why to say, don't focus on China, like say, oh, you're this or you're that or telling people who they are, focus in providing material support. So material is money, space, housing, you know, these sort of things. Because that's, that's building on my primary thing, which is providing space space isn't just space to talk spaces, sort of the headspace, the material needs being met, you're not hungry, you're not poor, because a lot of people who work here are going to be more susceptible to poverty and homelessness, and, you know, medical supports these, the focus on these things over this idea that you have to educate. That's, that's a, that's a big thing is I to fight NGO imperialism is to just just, you know, like, give them money, like, give them what they need to live, and then you can start after that, you know?
Unknown:
17:07
Mm hmm. Because
Hazim Ismail:
17:20
when you're financially and materially grounded, and and stable, you're more capable of asserting yourself. That's, that's a, that's a big thing as I fight NGO imperialism is to just just, you know, like, give them money, like, give them what they need to live, and then you can start after that, you
Unknown:
17:46
know. Mm hmm.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
17:54
And, to my mind it, it also recalls, it's sort of, like on the NGOs, charms, and there is a weird permission structure, it seems to be at work. And I'm curious, and this is sort of, a little bit further afield from what we're going to talk about, but why there's such a hesitancy I mean, obviously, there's, we're talking about the, you know, imperialism of the NGOs, but the hesitancy to sort of believe, and grant material support, versus first get this kind of assurance that they're granting it to the right people, like there's such a, and then that hesitancy, of course, as is, you know, mired in this all of this context, but it's just, you know, we've seen it time and time again, and I guess, what are what are some radical models that you've been that you've observed, that are doing this work that are first granting that material? support, rather than asking for a kind of Western? You know, identity?
Hazim Ismail:
19:04
Well, it's, it's, it's hard, because a lot of things will, you know, have to abide by the nation state apparatus, right, like, the immigration system is one of one of those tools. So, partly, like, you kind of have to navigate how to like, you know, get people through these sort of systems, but also give autonomy. A good example would be when I was living in Winnipeg treaty one, there's quite a bit of really cool to spirit kind of cooperation and coordination with Muslim communities and like a lot of like newcomer communities, so there was a support group that used to function. I don't know whether they're still doing it. But for a while they work because there was an increase in asylum seekers and They were operating out of sunshine house. And they were just, they didn't do any questioning whenever they're like, What do you need? Like? That's the first question, what do you need, and then next thing you want, right? And people have different needs people everyone wants. And there's a whole team of people, these are volunteers, community, providing community. And it's grounded in to spirit organization, right? sunshine house. And so one of the things that would often be needed was a letter of support for your refugee claim. And so there would be this whole network of people of like, Okay, I'm gonna write your letter, I'm gonna write a letter, I'm gonna write a letter, there was no like, are you really gay? Or you're not like, because the immigration system is already doing that, right? In a not so great way, but I think that's one of the ways people are trying to, like, sidestep or navigate the limitations of, of like, okay, we want to provide as much space as possible, but then you have to get through the the systems where there is immigration or some sort of healthcare, you know, system where they're not maybe understanding of trans non binary be su idre identities, and you want to help them get the things that they needed. Somebody needs hormones, how do you get them to hormones, right? Yeah, like, that's an example of memorization. in Winnipeg. So and there's a lot of, there's quite a number around the world where places, sanctuary cities often try to have this policy Toronto is technically one, but it's not the greatest of falling through on a sanctuary city policy. The reason why I mentioned that a sanctuary city policy means that you don't question somebody's immigration status. And part of that is also sort of the same philosophy of like, not questioning like somebody's, like gender or using this this man woman binary to determine whether someone's more Oh, yeah, you look like a woman. So you're more susceptible to this, you know, or were quoted as this or square? So? Oh, yeah. Must be, you probably have HIV, these sorts of things. Right. So yeah, I know, there's, in healthcare, there's a lot of examples of people doing that work, to just have this openness. So people can assert themselves without, without sacrificing the supports in a need. Right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
22:38
So what are some misconceptions about religion and gender diversity and how they work together?
Hazim Ismail:
22:44
I think the misconception is that they don't work together, right? Cuz people position religion as archaic and part of the path. And people position this often Western gender diversity as like a bastion of progress. And we were so happy. Like, I guess in terms of maybe in the States, it would be a democratic kind of here's, like, a liberal NDP, sort of we celebrate when. And it's reason to celebrate, obviously, like, we get a trans MP person, you know, things like this, or are non binary. In the US, you haven't now a non binary lawmaker, the first one, right? And these things are great. But I think people when they see this, like this non binary non binary lawmaker in the US, is also Muslim, right. And some media reporting do not mention a Muslim or some media reporting only mentioned the Muslim they don't mention the non binary. So that's a kudos to the ones that you mentioned both because I think it's really important because it does tackle this misconception that they're not compatible for my communities, who gives these two and the other genders like auto na macoun ry para la intellia by we've been practicing Islam as part of our specialization has gender for centuries now. And nothing is a utopian. You know, nothing is utopian in the world. So every community has a lot of things to work out. But there is a definitely a place for gender plurality right alongside Islam. And I think that's one conception where they don't, they don't gel together, right. And also texts, religious texts like the Quran. I don't know too much about the Bible or Torah. But at least for the Quran, there is quite a bit of space for interpretation and a lot of interpretation in the past. Muslim communities like dominantly have been very patriarchal and but now a lot of people like in the US, you know, the organization muslims for progressive while they identify as progressive Muslims, but it could be muslims for progressive voices, something like that, the that kind of advocate for a more open interpretation, right. So people can, like, have ease about being a Muslim and being non binary, for example. And I think that's really beautiful and, and really great direction and kind of conversation that wouldn't have happened in the past 10 years. So it's, it's always in development that lawyers are tackling this and I know RF is trying to do that as well and make space for that. And yeah, so I, I think that's one conception misconception that they don't go together. And or that religion is oppressive to gender diversity went from me, at least from an academic standpoint, and as a, like a former refugee and stateless person, it is a state apparatus, which is the obstruction and not the religion, right. Now,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
26:22
you described earlier on in this conversation, the difference in pronouns in English versus other languages, do you want to just talk about that briefly about how pronouns work for yourself when you're operating in different worlds or in different languages?
Hazim Ismail:
26:42
Well, so I speak Bahasa and bogans, in addition to English, and these two languages are Estonian languages, and most if not all, as region languages are genderless. So the way pronoun usage spans across the languages of the world, they trickle down to three basic forms for pronouns, one is grammatical gender, so English would be a grammatical gender language, so you do have he have seen, but they don't need to correspond to the verb, right? In a clinical proper way, France, French, and Spanish. They're what linguists call quote, unquote, I don't like this term, but it's called they call it natural gender. So the pronoun has to correspond with the verb, right? So you have masculine and feminine, there's a whole history around how masculine or feminine came about that isn't super tied to conceptualizations of gender, but this is how where we are today with those languages. And then you have gender lists, which do not have, so I use dia, to refer to anybody who's not a he's not a she is just, you know, a person and it could also be a nonhuman person, or like, non human being, that you're referring to. And most, over half of the world's languages are genderless. Right? So it really speaks to, to kind of, like, what is the dominant, you know, like, like forum for pronouns around the world is actually genderless that that is a dominant, but we are bound to binaries in a way and, um, but that's not to say that if you're using a language or your, your language is is, is very binary, like, if it was French, or Spanish, or hindi, hindi is technically a natural gender language, it doesn't mean that you can't assert your non gender conforming identities. Cujo, communities in India, have long been able to navigate, like the binary pneus of Hindi so that they are validating themselves, right? That could be tweaks that could be alterations here and there, whatever it is, in terms of syntax, so that you actually have a language that works for you, instead of you working to fit into a binary that's what I mean by pronouns. Like there's, there's some when I use like bei them, I'm also thinking like, Well, sometimes they don't feels like an other, like a third tender, just kind of want to be tender, less so like, yeah, in in Bahasa that I use, it just means like, you know, this is a sentient being, you know. And that's, that's nice. It's not I don't want to romanticize it, but it, it feels very, very nice to have that space, you know.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
29:57
Well, and it's interesting to hear people who Come at, like, they then pronouns in a Western context from this feeling like, Oh, this is how our language is. And that's a kind of destiny. So therefore, it cannot be changed. And, and like even said the way that French pronouns like the natural, it's very there, I think it sounds like sometimes people are wedded to this feeling like language is destiny, and it shows who we are. But I mean, we just know language changes, language is constantly evolving, it is this thing that we've created, to speak to one another. And it, of course, is, like, you know, the language I'm speaking today is because there was a Norman Conquest, and then it married, you know, two different Judah very different set of languages. And so, I think hearing here he described this, in my mind, just recalls the way that some people think of it is this very static, very naturalized thing that almost emerged out of nowhere to predict how we can talk to one another versus this thing that is always evolving and can always be made more expensive. And there's always I think there's what excites me too, is that there are always more words, like we're always making up new words. And there's no, there's no limit there. And so that, yeah, but that's really cool. Thanks for thanks for talking about pronouns and stuff.
Hazim Ismail:
31:25
Or you said it really nicely. And I'm very, like, I was just kind of ranting on. But I think you said it really perfectly. Like language is not static, right? And if not static, you have room to assert yourself if it's not working for you. And if enough people do that, then you have a language change. Right?
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
31:47
completely, totally. And also knowing to who are the Vanguard's of language? I mean, there's a lot I think they say teenage, like, female identifying people are often at the vanguard, we just have seen a lot of black women be at the vanguard of creating language that is, you know, suddenly very popular. So there is constant, I guess, creation.
Unknown:
32:15
happening all the time.
Hazim Ismail:
32:17
Yeah. That's exciting. It's nice, though. Like, maybe 10 years ago, they them would not have been as normalized as it is today. Right? Oh, so it's, it's, it's like, I think, earlier this year, Manitoba, now you can have them on your Manitoba IDs and your driver's license. And that's thanks to Zuma, who is black, and MP or MLA for Union Station. So really, really great person, and used to be part of that group that would function out of sunshine house to provide supports for newcomers, for queer asylum seekers? So yeah, like, you, you're right, like, that a lot of this comes from black communities and their innovations of language, right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
33:21
And not to get into the way that then it's, you know, people who make a profit off of it. We're not going to get into that combo today. But yeah, there's a lot there. There's a lot out there. So finally, I really like this final question, just because it, I think, can put into people's mind again, this opening the space of possibility, which is what does decolonizing gender mean to you?
Hazim Ismail:
33:47
It's a it is a big question. It's, it's decolonization is you so much, right? But I think because what is the what the the opposite of decolonization is common? Is it colonizing? So, colonization imposed binaries and oppose certain dominant understandings of gender and sexuality? So for me, it's, it's one, the first step is undoing that as much as you can, you'll never be able to undo everything. But I'm doing as much as you can, and then to having the autonomy to decide what to do then. Right. Where to move forward. So when I say I do, I mean, undo the damage, right? I don't mean like, okay, now that the West has introduced non binary units, oh, no, you can't be non binary anymore, because we're decolonizing. No, it means undoing the damage of like, Oh, no, I grew up being forced to either be a man or woman or being forced to be a man or being forced to be a woman. And now, okay, that's Don't try to work on Doing the damage that that has done. But then the next step is having the space to decide what to do after and having the supports not just space but support to go in a direction that you need to to do for healing, I think it was, Malcolm X was famously quoted, I'm gonna fumble the quote a bit, but the he mentioned about reparations for black women in in the North American context that, like, reparations isn't just pulling the knife out of the back, but also, like being a part of the healing of the wounds right. And so I think decolonization is that entire process from the pulling out of the knife, which means I'm doing the damage like that could be that. But then being part of the healing and making space, how do you want to heal? Which direction do you want to heal and that's for me, be colonization, because when you're able to dissenter yourself, at least on the part of like a settler person or colonizer whatever, somebody in a dominant power position, is to just be center and provide support and for people who are on the receiving Africanisation to, to have to assert yourself, and to have that autonomy, and you get to you get to decide for yourself and for your communities, what's needed to move forward, right, and a healthy way. And if that means, and it often does mean, taking concepts that are associated with being Western and what might be your own, like traditions, together, that's perfectly fine. As long as that's you being, you know, you right, you have a space to be used. So if you, a lot of people are trans and Two Spirit, try to transfer and be super non binary and be super trans and Hydra, you know, this, this is perfectly fine. They're not incompatible. It's, it's all about the cons, I think. decolonization is about having a space, taking space, making space, space, space, space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:18
space, space. And for those folks, such as myself, or settlers, you're like, like you said, decentering, kind of, it's like, and I'm trying to think of like a metaphor here. But when there is space for other people, that means taking a step back decentering oneself so that I mean, those two things have to go hand in hand for for others to to make space into. Yeah, like you said, for that for that healing to take place.
Unknown:
37:51
Mm hmm.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:53
Yeah, well, I really, I really, thank you his name. This has been such a lovely conversation. I've really learned a lot. I have really enjoyed talking to you about all of this. I want there to be so many more podcasts. And I really, I really appreciate your time today.
Hazim Ismail:
38:11
Thank you for taking time and making space. Space should just end we should just end by chanting space, space space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:25
shall we? We can, we can absolutely do that. That can be our our final offering one.
Unknown:
38:31
All right. space, space, space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:34
space, space, space, space, space. Thanks. which I feel is fun.
Unknown:
38:41
Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:43
Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
Unknown:
38:50
Thank you, as well.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:54
Thank you so much for listening. And thanks again to Xen for sharing this really valuable history that I think there's always so much more to understand and to learn about. So I've linked a few helpful resources in the show notes. Next week. Next Tuesday, we will be hearing from Sheldon weisbecker, or better known as Carmen del Rey, the superstar drag queen who is going to be talking about navigating Judaism alongside queerness. So the show is all about featuring personal stories about people navigating queerness alongside their spirituality and how that intersects with politics. And if you have a story you'd like to share, please give me an email. My email is be polu fry at rainbow faith and freedom.org. The as in Brigitte, PA w Li w hyphen fry at rainbow faith and freedom.org and I'd love to hear from you. Thanks so much. And please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
