#209 JITing Python with .NET, no irons in sight

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Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds.
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This is episode 209, recorded on November 18th, 2020. I'm Michael Kennedy.
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And I'm Brian Okken.
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And this episode is brought to you by us and all the things we're offering to the Python community.
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But I kind of want to take a step back in my whole career and start back where I spent a little bit of time in .NET.
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Isn't that a weird thing for me to do on a Python podcast?
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Yeah, but you're kind of a .NET kind of guy in your past.
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I like C#, all right. Like if I wasn't doing Python, that's probably what I would be doing.
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But look.
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Well, thank God for Python.
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Yes, I know. Well, also, I just want to point out, this is not my fault. This is Anthony Shaw's fault.
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Oh, okay.
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Yeah. So, Anthony Shaw wrote an article showing you how to use one of the more exciting inventions, evolution, something like that,
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with regard to Python and how it's actually executed.
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And it has to do with .NET.
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So, he wrote an article called Running Python on .NET 5.
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So, there's a couple of layers we got to unpack here to finally put this together for everyone.
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So, way back on episode 49, like when I was living in Germany type way back, I talked about this thing called Pigeon, P-Y-J-I-O-N with Brett Cannon.
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Okay.
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So, what this was is a way to like shim into CPython, something that would intercept when a frame, a function frame was being executed and, you know, hand over the Python bytecode.
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When you run Python, it gets compiled to those P-Y-C files into bytecode.
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But then, unlike, say, .NET and Java, which compiles that to machine instruction, it just jams that through the big C eval.c loop, like the 3,000 line switch statement.
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That is Python's runtime, right?
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So, it gets like mixed into that workflow and it can actually take that.
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And there was talk about maybe compiling to the JavaScript Chromium engine, potentially, or to .NET, right?
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Those are like, it could be, so the idea was you could plug in some alternative JIT compiler to be given segments of Python and said, run this block of Python.
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Cool, right?
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Okay.
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So, you know, obviously, compiled code has at least the potential to be a lot faster if it really understands what it's compiling than interpreted code.
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Okay.
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So, that's thing one.
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Thing two is .NET traditionally used to be this thing that ran on Windows and it only ran on Windows.
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And that was a problem for a lot of people.
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So, Microsoft came up with this thing called .NET Core, which was the open source version, a multi-platform open source version of .NET.
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And just recently, they said, it's really silly to have these two things.
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So, let's just come up with this thing called .NET 5 that is the new cross-platform open source replacement that puts those things together.
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Okay?
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Okay.
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And I'm leaking to like some of the announcements.
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They just did a conference over there.
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People can check it out if they want to go deep.
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Number three, things that run in .NET often are faster than Python.
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Like, you can debate that.
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But like, especially the numerical types of bits because they work with, you know, integers and floats, not PyObject long pointers and so on.
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And so, I just ran across a Stack Overflow post where someone was complaining that their Python implementation of something was 31 times slower than C#.
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Like, that's outside the margin of error probably.
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It's not good.
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I mean, we can debate about whether or not Python is fast or slow.
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And I think that's a really interesting conversation because developing it is faster.
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If you bring in things like NumPy, all of a sudden you're down to C++, which is probably flat out faster.
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And there's just all these variations, right?
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Yeah.
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So, not to put too much of a point on it, but it is a place where code runs pretty quickly.
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So, if you could get some Python code to run on that place as well, that would be pretty sweet.
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So, what people have traditionally done to make their code faster, as many people know, is compile, like, write it in C and compile it as a C extension.
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You know, things like NumPy might do that.
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Or use something like Cython, which basically takes sort of write it in C, you write it in Python, but then it just compiles it to C, which then is compiled to machine instructions.
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So, there's like this sort of escape hatch, right?
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Yeah.
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So, .NET has this JIT compiler that comes with it.
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Pigeon is this project that allows you to plug a JIT compiler into the Python execution.
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So, the people over at Microsoft, Brett Cannon and Dino Veland, hopefully I got that right, the people involved, have been actually working on this for the last four years.
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And they're now, you can now use this Pigeon project in Python 3.9.
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And the reason is, back in 3.7, there was a PEP called PEP523, which was basically an API for swapping out frame execution with a replacement implementation.
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And that's where you might take out Interpreter and inject JIT compiler.
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So, basically, they've just, you know, now that 3.7 came out with that, they've been building on that.
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And he's got some really cool examples.
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Like, all you go over there is you pip install Pigeon, you know, import Pigeon, Pigeon.enable, or like something like that to say start.
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And that's it.
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There's no other changes to your code.
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And now it's running JIT compiled on .NET 5 cross-platform.
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That's pretty cool.
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It's got some real interesting possibilities there, right?
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Yes.
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And it uses the, so there's been other things where you could like plug in Python into alternate runtimes and VMs like JITON and IronPython and so on.
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This is not that.
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This literally uses the same standard library.
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Your C extensions are supposed to still work, right?
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So, what they did is they actually said, they actually went and they tested the entire CPython test suite on all platforms with this.
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And this is actually the first JIT implementation to ever pass the test suite.
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Oh, that's pretty cool.
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Yeah?
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Right?
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Because so we've got things like PyPy, but it's like 94% or whatever, like some, you know, mostly, mostly Python, but it's not all Python, right?
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So, this is really cool that they've got this high-performance runtime cross-platform JIT compiler that they just seem to have successfully plugged into Python.
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Yeah.
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So, it's running which version of Python?
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3.9.
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Oh, okay.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah.
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So, it doesn't like, like a lot of these other things said, well, let's replace the Python runtime with X and then it'll be mostly the same.
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And so, what this does instead is it plugs in just at that PEP 5.2.3 frame execution layer and says, you want to run this part of a function.
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How do you do that?
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It's just that little bit that changes.
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So, other than that, it's the same old Python 3.9 that you know and love that I'm, as far as I can tell.
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Yeah.
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So, that's pretty awesome.
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Yeah.
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I'm pretty excited.
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It is pretty awesome.
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And then a little, like some extra news on this, unless you already mentioned it.
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This happened a couple days ago.
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Pigeon is unfortunately frozen in the Microsoft repo, but Anthony's fork is now the official fork.
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What?
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Yeah.
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He's doing so much interesting low-level stuff, Anthony is.
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Yeah.
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He's got his, like, CPython source code book and, yeah, so, yeah, that's cool you're linking over to it.
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So, all this stuff is very exciting and it has the possibility for code to run much faster.
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So, for example, given something that it can tell is here's a pi long object pointer thing.
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Could we convert that?
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And it's small.
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Could we convert that to just a, you know, four byte integer and do integer math instead of, like, complex math, right?
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Like, that would make a tremendous difference in speed.
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Yeah.
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That said, what they've done here so far is just let's make it run and not break.
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Yeah.
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And now they're going to start working on the optimization.
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So, this JIT compiler hasn't done any optimizations yet, but they're going to start teaching Pigeon how to understand the Python code.
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Say, could we restructure that to get the same outcome, but in a much more native to the machine way?
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So, is it faster?
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A little bit.
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Not a ton yet.
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But it opens the door for huge improvements by working specifically on the JIT compiler, understanding how to take code that it gets and turn it into something.
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Yeah.
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And this sort of cross work and stuff is interesting.
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Just interesting about, you know, working with languages, working with whether or not you're going to do interpreted versus JIT compiled and things like that.
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It's a very interesting story.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And that Stack Overflow thing I linked to, they also talk about PyPy, PYPy, and how it also made the example there go quite a bit faster.
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So, anyway, JIT seemed to be an interesting option here.
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So, from PEP 523 to 621, let's keep rolling on the PEP, man.
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The PEP 621 is, I guess, trying to standardize some of the metadata in PyProject.toml.
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So, we've talked about packaging in PyProject.toml a lot, I think.
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The different projects like Black and Flit and others have been using a loophole in the original spec that said, yeah, you can put extra stuff in there, but we don't recommend it to everybody who's putting extra stuff in it.
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Like, but are we forbidden?
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No, let's do it.
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No, yeah.
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So, they took out the recommendation to not do that.
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But there's motivation to sort of standardize on the things that are building packages and building wheels.
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It'd be really great if, like, we could kind of standardize on what is in there and what names.
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The big players are set up tools and poetry and Flit, of course.
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But there's others around that do this.
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And this PEP actually includes the authors of all of those in trying to get some of this together.
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Some of the motivation is to try to have some of the metadata statically defined so that other tools can read it quickly.
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And we can build an ecosystem around just a standard set of things.
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That makes a lot of sense.
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If you're going to put it there anyway, make it at least interchangeable and useful.
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Yeah, and just kind of define what it means to have these things in there.
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And one of the nice things I looked for because it kind of bugged me about the old packaging was whether or not email was required.
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And it's nice to see that both name and, I mean, usually you should put, like, an author or maintainer name.
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And email is encouraged, but I don't want to put my email in there.
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And it's optional, so that's cool.
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Yeah, exactly, because then it gets published up IPI.
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And, man, anytime you put your email on the internet, you just get communication.
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This is still in draft form officially, I think, but I think it'll go forward.
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It doesn't change any of the existing core metadata, and it doesn't attempt to standardize all things that you could put in there.
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But some of the common things like name, version, description, where the readme is, which Python version is required, what license you have.
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These are all sort of standard things that used to be other places, but having them in the PyProject.tom will be great.
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Yeah, it seems like they belong together in there.
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So, like, you know, what is the name of the project?
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What version of Python does it require?
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And so on, that's reasonable.
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Yeah.
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I'm actually surprised.
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I'm like, well, we haven't already standardized this stuff.
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Exactly.
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You know what else is reasonable?
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Is learning pytest.
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Yeah.
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That's a pretty reasonable thing.
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And often people do it with a book?
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They do.
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And I'm still getting some really great quotes from people, which would have been good for me to be ready with that.
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But people contact me.
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I get a message probably every other day saying, man, the Python Testing with pytest book that you wrote has helped me so much get up to speed really quickly.
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And I really love feedback like that.
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So if it's helped you, please let me know.
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It'd be great.
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Yeah.
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I'm about to release a FastAPI course.
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It may actually be out by the time people hear this because there's this time travel thing that we do with podcasting.
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Not that much, but a little bit.
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So people should definitely check that out over at Talk Python Training.
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And I've already started writing the next course.
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So that'll be fun.
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Big secret there.
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You're cranking them out.
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I'm really liking this stuff.
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And I'm really looking forward to the FastAPI course.
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Yeah.
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Thanks.
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It's all done, recorded.
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It just needs the final editing set on the videos.
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And it's going to be really fun.
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I think people will love that framework.
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I had a lot of fun exploring it.
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Cool.
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You know what's not a lot of fun?
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When you get a DMCA complaint from the Record Industry Association of America to take down your GitHub project.
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What?
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That happens?
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Apparently.
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It happens to me all the time on a really funny story.
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I did a webcast years ago when I first moved to Oregon.
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And there were some people who had dialed in.
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And it was so frustrating.
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Like there's all these hundreds of people.
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Somebody put the call on hold because they had someone come in their office.
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It started playing like the hold music to the whole organization.
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Everyone, like all hundred people were hearing this hold music.
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And we're like, how do we get rid of this one person without getting rid of the rest?
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It was really bad.
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But the reason I bring this up now is it was like a song, an actual copyrighted song.
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When I published the webcast to YouTube, it got taken down because the hold music that was interrupting the webcast got a DMCA complaint.
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So anyway, these things are super frustrating.
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You're like, why?
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This makes no sense.
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Anyway, so here's the story.
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GitHub had taken down YouTube-DL.
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YouTube-DL, I believe it's a Python project that allows, basically gives you a CLI for downloading content off of YouTube.
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So if you're like, oh, that video is really awesome.
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I wish I had it offline.
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YouTube-DL space URL-format or whatever, you know, you give it, you just run that and it downloads it.
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However, because the record industry puts a lot of songs and music videos and stuff up on YouTube, they said this theoretically could be used to download a song.
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Therefore, we hate it.
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And so we asked GitHub to take it down and get up dead.
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Interesting.
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Yeah.
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But here's the news.
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They revamped their copyright takedown policy, put a bunch of other policies in place, set up a legal defense fund, and restored YouTube download.
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And gave the middle finger to RIAA, basically.
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Yeah, because this tool, I mean, maybe this tool helps you do something you shouldn't, but it's not itself.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So also, you know, big shout out to the EFF, Electronic Frontier Foundation, in that they helped, like, critique and go through the actual legal bits of this and show GitHub, like, you know what?
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Actually, their main complaint is actually not even what's happening.
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So the RIAA argued that the tool ran afoul of Section 1201 of U.S. copyright law by giving people the means to circumvent YouTube's DRM, digital rights management.
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So that's the important part, right?
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Like, it's breaking this encryption prevention of copying that YouTube has.
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:11.920
But then the EFF looked at the claims and said, you know, what it actually does is it just grabs the video stream and saves it to a file.
00:15:11.920 --> 00:15:14.920
It doesn't decrypt it or re-encode it or anything.
00:15:15.420 --> 00:15:22.000
So for things like Netflix or Widevine or things like that that use DRM, this actually has no effect on it.
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:28.160
Only if the video is in an unprotected, like, MP4 format will it even work.
00:15:28.160 --> 00:15:34.220
So their main complaint that, oh, it breaks this DRM, it doesn't break DRM.
00:15:34.220 --> 00:15:36.460
So they said, we're putting it back.
00:15:36.460 --> 00:15:36.720
Okay.
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:37.100
Yeah?
00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:40.800
And as part of this, there's, like, a pretty big uproar, I believe.
00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:46.500
So GitHub is implementing new policies to avoid the repeat of such a situation moving forward.
00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:54.660
First, it says the team of technical and legal experts will manually evaluate every single section 1201 claim.
00:15:54.660 --> 00:15:55.740
That's cool.
00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:56.020
Yeah.
00:15:56.020 --> 00:16:04.580
And instead of just going, whoop, it goes down, they said if the company's team, technical and legal teams, ultimately find issues with the project,
00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:08.100
GitHub will give its owners a chance to address those problems before taking down their work.
00:16:08.100 --> 00:16:08.640
That's nice.
00:16:08.640 --> 00:16:09.400
Yeah, that's cool.
00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:17.100
And GitHub is establishing a $1 million legal defense fund for developers if somebody sues them about their GitHub project.
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:18.240
That's actually awesome.
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.020
Yeah, this is a feel-good story, right?
00:16:20.020 --> 00:16:20.400
I think.
00:16:20.400 --> 00:16:28.620
Well, yeah, because the individual developers sometimes are just, like, you know, a handful of people or even just one person making some cool tool that they think is neat.
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:30.560
You're giving this stuff away.
00:16:30.560 --> 00:16:33.740
You can't get a lawyer or whatever to defend yourself.
00:16:33.740 --> 00:16:38.440
And a lot of times it's published through GitHub under your personal name, right?
00:16:38.640 --> 00:16:48.740
So, like, Talk Python has an organization, and we pay GitHub, like, 50, 60 bucks a month to have our organization maintain repos on there, right?
00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:55.760
But a lot of people, it's just, you know, GitHub.com slash Brian Okken or slash Mike C. Kennedy or whatever.
00:16:55.760 --> 00:16:59.140
There's no, like, legal guards there, right?
00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:00.920
So, it's really cool that they're doing this.
00:17:00.920 --> 00:17:01.240
Yeah.
00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:02.300
I like it.
00:17:02.300 --> 00:17:07.720
And as I was researching this into my inbox, dropped a newsletter from the EFF.
00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:09.920
Apparently, I'm a subscriber to their newsletter.
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:19.500
And they said they just launched a podcast miniseries called How to Fix the Internet that examines potential solutions to six ills facing the modern digital landscape.
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:20.480
And this sounds like one of them.
00:17:20.560 --> 00:17:23.020
So, people are, like, really interested in this.
00:17:23.020 --> 00:17:25.340
They can actually listen to the EFF series there.
00:17:25.340 --> 00:17:25.740
Yeah.
00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:26.600
Nice.
00:17:26.600 --> 00:17:27.960
Anyway, that's a wild story, right?
00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:28.880
It is very wild.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:29.180
Yeah.
00:17:29.180 --> 00:17:29.820
All right.
00:17:29.820 --> 00:17:30.460
What you got next here?
00:17:30.460 --> 00:17:31.660
Another one of my favorite topics?
00:17:31.660 --> 00:17:32.660
Yeah.
00:17:32.660 --> 00:17:34.240
So, you like MongoDB, right?
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:34.640
I do.
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:35.020
I love it.
00:17:35.120 --> 00:17:40.200
So, I was actually thinking the other day, how small of a machine could I put MongoDB on?
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:48.040
And then Mark Smith comes out with an article that says that's how to install and configure MongoDB on a Raspberry Pi.
00:17:48.040 --> 00:17:48.420
Wow.
00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:48.840
That's awesome.
00:17:48.840 --> 00:17:49.960
Which is totally cool.
00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:53.180
So, it's a fairly comprehensive little guide.
00:17:53.180 --> 00:17:56.820
But I didn't know you could put Ubuntu server on a Raspberry Pi either.
00:17:56.820 --> 00:17:59.140
So, that's how he does it.
00:17:59.140 --> 00:18:05.100
He installs the Ubuntu server 64-bit on a Raspberry Pi, configures the Wi-Fi, installs MongoDB.
00:18:05.100 --> 00:18:11.320
But there's like a kind of a quirk on how you're supposed to install MongoDB on it.
00:18:11.320 --> 00:18:18.320
And then set up an account so that you can safely have a MongoDB server running in your house.
00:18:18.320 --> 00:18:23.760
He recommends this is like a local network thing, not even a company-wide thing.
00:18:23.760 --> 00:18:26.000
Just if you're using it yourself, go for it.
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:38.960
If you already have a Raspberry Pi and that's like your thing that is running, that is your sort of file server or whatever reason that you have it running for, and you want a database, it's cool that you can set this up here, right?
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.740
I mean, you probably wouldn't host like a professional website on it.
00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:43.460
But who knows?
00:18:43.460 --> 00:18:44.120
Maybe you would.
00:18:44.120 --> 00:18:45.540
I've got stories.
00:18:45.740 --> 00:18:51.240
One of the things I love about MongoDB is just the ease of like setting up storage areas for it and stuff.
00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:52.120
And you can just...
00:18:52.120 --> 00:18:52.280
Yeah.
00:18:52.280 --> 00:18:52.680
It's easy.
00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:56.100
You just talk to it like you expect it to be and it just becomes that way, right?
00:18:56.100 --> 00:18:58.380
You don't have to like run migration scripts and all that.
00:18:58.380 --> 00:18:58.600
Yeah.
00:18:58.600 --> 00:19:06.820
So, this would be, I mean, things like a home network to collect like, I don't know, temperature data from different places and some of that stuff.
00:19:07.560 --> 00:19:08.780
Or, you know, whatever.
00:19:08.780 --> 00:19:11.340
Things like that might be kind of a neat use for that.
00:19:11.340 --> 00:19:11.900
Definitely.
00:19:11.900 --> 00:19:15.680
If you've got like an IoT thing, smart home thing going on and you want to store it somewhere.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:16.540
Yeah.
00:19:16.540 --> 00:19:16.760
Yeah.
00:19:16.760 --> 00:19:17.140
Very cool.
00:19:17.140 --> 00:19:17.660
I love it.
00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:18.020
Nice.
00:19:18.020 --> 00:19:19.240
Good find there.
00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:25.920
So, this next one is like this new little section I've just invented just for this one time called Extra, Extra, Extra, Hear All About It.
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.620
So, normally we have our extras at the end, but I had so many extras this time.
00:19:29.620 --> 00:19:31.880
I'm like, this show is going to be super long if we just keep going.
00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:35.220
So, this is like all the other little tiny things grouped into one.
00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:38.240
So, four, at least four more little things, but all combined.
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:38.600
Okay.
00:19:38.600 --> 00:19:38.980
Okay.
00:19:38.980 --> 00:19:41.820
Let's start with some listener feedback.
00:19:41.820 --> 00:19:50.420
So, remember I went on a rant, I'm known to do that sometimes, about the Stack Overflow Survey and how they were comparing things that were like simply not comparable?
00:19:50.420 --> 00:19:51.420
Yes.
00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:54.180
And one of the things I picked on was SQL.
00:19:54.180 --> 00:20:01.180
And I said it doesn't make any sense to have SQL compared to the popularity of SQL compared to the popularity of Python or the popularity of C#.
00:20:01.180 --> 00:20:05.080
Because people who do C#, they got to use SQL.
00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:08.940
People who do Python, they got to use SQL, but not the other way around, right?
00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:10.000
It's like, I don't know.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:11.680
It's just, it didn't seem like they were right.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:17.380
Like the numbers for SQL were inflated because all the other people were also happening to use SQL.
00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:20.580
But if you ask them like, what kind of developer are you?
00:20:20.580 --> 00:20:22.040
They wouldn't say I'm a SQL developer.
00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:27.840
They would say I'm a Python developer or I'm a Java developer or .NET or whatever is not SQL, right?
00:20:27.840 --> 00:20:32.840
So, John Nickerson said, hey, I feel like you're saying that people just use SQL or not real developers.
00:20:32.840 --> 00:20:34.600
I just want to point out that, no, no, no.
00:20:34.600 --> 00:20:36.120
That's not at all how I felt about it.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:39.560
I think if like your job mainly is to use SQL, then you should check that box.
00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:40.440
You should say SQL.
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:50.740
I'm just criticizing that we've got these two things side by side in these surveys where one of them is standalone.
00:20:50.740 --> 00:20:57.000
And then one of them also adds to the other, but they're put together as if they're separate and being compared.
00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.120
And that just didn't feel right to me.
00:20:59.120 --> 00:20:59.380
Yeah.
00:20:59.380 --> 00:21:03.740
I mean, yeah, there's definitely people that specialize SQL queries.
00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:05.540
That's a cool thing.
00:21:05.540 --> 00:21:09.100
And there are people that do that as professionally.
00:21:09.100 --> 00:21:10.500
And I think that's super cool.
00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:17.160
But like you said, having SQL being used by your Python is not the same as being a SQL developer.
00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:17.660
Right.
00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:19.620
JavaScript has exactly the same problem.
00:21:19.620 --> 00:21:20.540
Yeah.
00:21:20.540 --> 00:21:25.080
All the web developers that use any technology whatsoever, they also use JavaScript.
00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:29.340
But that doesn't mean Node.js is massively more popular than everything else.
00:21:29.340 --> 00:21:31.500
Also, I just wanted to quickly follow up.
00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:35.440
When people fill out those surveys, they check anything that they've ever done.
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:36.380
Yes.
00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:38.800
Exactly.
00:21:38.800 --> 00:21:40.840
Have I touched CSS this year?
00:21:40.840 --> 00:21:42.140
Yes, I'm a CSS developer.
00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:42.820
All right.
00:21:42.820 --> 00:21:45.620
Next of the extra, this is extra number two.
00:21:45.620 --> 00:21:49.640
So remember we talked a little while ago about Peter Van Rassen,
00:21:49.860 --> 00:21:52.100
creator Python, retiring.
00:21:52.100 --> 00:21:56.160
We talked about him stepping down from the steering council and saying,
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:57.300
I'm just going to chill for a while.
00:21:57.300 --> 00:21:57.680
Yeah.
00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:58.180
Yeah.
00:21:58.180 --> 00:21:58.800
He's done chilling.
00:22:01.060 --> 00:22:07.100
So actually the big news, I think this is pretty big news, is that he joined, maybe as a technical fellow.
00:22:07.100 --> 00:22:10.520
I'm not sure exactly what the official role is, but he joined Microsoft now.
00:22:10.520 --> 00:22:12.020
That's pretty high up.
00:22:12.020 --> 00:22:12.100
That's awesome.
00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:12.420
Yeah.
00:22:12.520 --> 00:22:13.700
I think he should do call support.
00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:14.380
That'd be great.
00:22:14.380 --> 00:22:15.840
Yeah.
00:22:15.840 --> 00:22:17.440
So he said he decided to join.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:22.360
He said, I decided that retirement was boring and have joined developer division at Microsoft.
00:22:22.360 --> 00:22:23.520
To do what?
00:22:23.520 --> 00:22:26.840
Too many things to say, but it'll make using Python better for sure.
00:22:26.840 --> 00:22:27.820
And not just on Windows.
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:29.320
There's lots of open source here.
00:22:29.320 --> 00:22:30.220
Watch the space.
00:22:30.220 --> 00:22:35.380
And there are 5,000, no, 2,100 quoted tweets.
00:22:35.820 --> 00:22:42.860
And I'm not sure how to tell me how many conversations, but there's like an insane number of replies to it as well.
00:22:42.860 --> 00:22:47.580
And a bunch of familiar faces and listeners actually right there all replying to Guido.
00:22:47.580 --> 00:22:55.380
One in particular I'd like to point out is, I'll link to this in the show notes as well, is somebody said,
00:22:55.380 --> 00:23:00.320
I'm wondering, you know, at this point in your career, do they still ask you to submit a resume?
00:23:00.320 --> 00:23:02.140
Yes, they did.
00:23:02.140 --> 00:23:05.440
And I got interviewed by Kevin Scott and Andrew Salzberg and others.
00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:06.000
How cool is that?
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:09.480
They also asked for my diploma from university, exclamation marks.
00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:10.640
Says Guido.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:12.820
Oh my gosh.
00:23:12.820 --> 00:23:13.180
Yeah.
00:23:13.180 --> 00:23:17.640
I would think you're like, you just could walk up and say, hey, I created one of these languages.
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:18.580
I'm here.
00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:19.040
I'm ready.
00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:19.920
But nope.
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.500
I don't even know if I can find my diploma.
00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:24.620
I'd have to dig.
00:23:24.620 --> 00:23:29.980
I think I know where it is, but I know generally what part of the house it's in, but it's in boxes under boxes.
00:23:29.980 --> 00:23:32.900
Anyway, that's really interesting.
00:23:32.900 --> 00:23:33.600
Okay.
00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:34.460
That's two.
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:35.860
So extra, extra, extra.
00:23:35.860 --> 00:23:41.000
If you think about popular editors in the Python space, really these days, it feels like it's
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:43.640
narrowing down into VS Code and PyCharm.
00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:47.720
Like it used to be just completely all over the map when I asked that question on Talk Python.
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:51.720
And these days it's VS Code, PyCharm, VS Code, or I was on one and switched to the other.
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:53.000
And Vim.
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:53.340
Yeah.
00:23:53.340 --> 00:23:53.740
And Vim.
00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:55.440
They don't say something like that.
00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:56.640
It's either Vim or Emacs.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:56.900
Yeah.
00:23:56.900 --> 00:23:58.240
It's like one of those types.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:05.840
But right here in Portland, Oregon, roaming the streets, we now have a new editor called Nova from Panic.
00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:06.500
Yeah.
00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:07.340
Panic.
00:24:07.840 --> 00:24:08.040
Yeah.
00:24:08.040 --> 00:24:08.060
Yeah.
00:24:08.060 --> 00:24:14.200
Panic is a developer-oriented company that makes native Mac apps.
00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:17.500
And they are right downtown by Pal's Books.
00:24:17.660 --> 00:24:20.480
You can see their office from the coffee shop, I think.
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:20.740
Cool.
00:24:20.740 --> 00:24:21.100
Yeah.
00:24:21.100 --> 00:24:30.300
So anyway, they built this thing called Nova, which is like a reinterpretation of their interpretation of what a code developer editor should be.
00:24:30.300 --> 00:24:39.440
And it's got cool things like GitHub integration where it shows you, say, the issues around the code that you're working on and stuff like that as you're going through it.
00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:41.860
So I'm sticking with PyCharm.
00:24:41.860 --> 00:24:42.520
I looked at this.
00:24:42.520 --> 00:24:43.860
It looks neat and all, but I'm not using it.
00:24:43.860 --> 00:24:51.240
That said, I think it's worth pointing out that there's a new developer editor out there from a pretty reputable company that's putting a lot of energy into it.
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:51.820
So that's kind of cool.
00:24:51.820 --> 00:24:52.180
Yeah.
00:24:52.180 --> 00:24:53.160
It's got a Vim mode.
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:53.600
I'll try it.
00:24:53.600 --> 00:24:54.440
I think it does.
00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:55.360
I'm pretty sure I remember it.
00:24:55.360 --> 00:24:56.160
All right.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:56.700
Last thing.
00:24:56.700 --> 00:24:58.220
Extra, extra, extra, extra.
00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:02.600
I installed Big Sur on my Mac and it didn't die.
00:25:02.600 --> 00:25:04.540
And all the Python things seem to be working.
00:25:04.540 --> 00:25:05.980
All the websites run.
00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:07.180
The MongoDB stuff's working.
00:25:07.180 --> 00:25:09.220
So that's really pretty neat.
00:25:10.220 --> 00:25:14.180
Homebrew stopped working, which is very frustrating because that's how I manage things like Python.
00:25:14.180 --> 00:25:18.140
But I just had to upgrade Xcode to the latest edition and then it was good again.
00:25:18.140 --> 00:25:20.360
I don't think I put Homebrew on my computer.
00:25:20.360 --> 00:25:21.100
I love Homebrew.
00:25:21.100 --> 00:25:21.780
I probably do.
00:25:21.780 --> 00:25:22.080
Yeah.
00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:22.940
I like it.
00:25:22.940 --> 00:25:23.780
Install Python.
00:25:23.780 --> 00:25:24.480
Install MongoDB.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:25.760
Install a lot of things like that.
00:25:25.760 --> 00:25:26.480
Open SL.
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:27.160
SSL.
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:28.240
Seems always getting there somewhere.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:36.540
And also I said that I ordered a new MacBook Pro instead of the Apple Silicon thing.
00:25:36.700 --> 00:25:40.460
I actually canceled that and I'm getting a MacBook, a Mac mini, Apple one.
00:25:40.460 --> 00:25:41.140
Very exciting.
00:25:41.140 --> 00:25:41.880
I'll let you know how it goes.
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:42.760
Oh, I can't wait.
00:25:42.760 --> 00:25:45.240
Actually, I didn't know they were still making minis.
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:46.260
They revamped it.
00:25:46.260 --> 00:25:50.880
It is now faster than any mobile Mac.
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:55.460
And the only thing that will beat the Mac mini is the Mac, like the $5,000 Mac Pro.
00:25:56.260 --> 00:26:00.820
But sometimes the $600, $700 Mac mini will still beat the $5,000 Mac Pro.
00:26:00.820 --> 00:26:01.600
It's like ridiculous.
00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:03.260
I'm not going to get one of these.
00:26:03.260 --> 00:26:06.100
I already got like a really beefy monitor.
00:26:06.100 --> 00:26:06.860
Yeah, exactly.
00:26:06.860 --> 00:26:09.920
It'll do one 6K and one 4K monitor.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.180
So dual monitors, 6 and 4K.
00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:15.120
I'm telling you, man, this thing looks incredible.
00:26:15.120 --> 00:26:16.700
You look at the Geekbench scores.
00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:17.640
You look at the reviews.
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:18.960
It's really awesome.
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:19.840
And the price is like.
00:26:19.840 --> 00:26:20.200
Okay.
00:26:20.360 --> 00:26:25.300
So I got like $1,500 back by canceling my MacBook order and a faster computer.
00:26:25.300 --> 00:26:25.720
Nice.
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:27.380
So anyway, we'll follow up on that.
00:26:27.380 --> 00:26:28.120
Let's see how it goes.
00:26:28.120 --> 00:26:30.460
Anyway, that was extra, extra, extra, extra.
00:26:30.460 --> 00:26:31.440
You're all about it.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:31.920
Nice.
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:37.160
Well, so normally my spot would be number 6, but that'd be like, what are we at?
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:38.360
Like 9 now or something?
00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:38.940
Yeah, we're at 9, yeah.
00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:39.300
Okay.
00:26:39.300 --> 00:26:42.640
So actually, this is a cool article.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.060
I love this story.
00:26:44.060 --> 00:26:49.460
Dale Markowitz wrote an article called, I'm masquerading it right now.
00:26:49.460 --> 00:26:53.940
But it's a Python-driven AI stylist inspired by social media.
00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:55.420
No way.
00:26:55.420 --> 00:26:59.560
So it looks at like Instagram and like influencers and stuff and says, this is how we think you
00:26:59.560 --> 00:27:00.260
should dress and look?
00:27:00.260 --> 00:27:00.560
Yeah.
00:27:00.560 --> 00:27:03.720
So one of the cool ideas, and it's so cool.
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:05.360
So she works for Google.
00:27:05.360 --> 00:27:09.720
So she's using a whole bunch of Google tools that are available to everybody else too.
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:15.840
Things like Google Storage, Firebase, Cloud Vision API, Product Search API and stuff, which
00:27:15.840 --> 00:27:19.120
actually I've never played with any of these, but it's kind of neat that they're
00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:21.260
available to really anybody that they want.
00:27:21.260 --> 00:27:28.080
And so the idea is she took pictures of all of her, every item in her closet.
00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:34.800
And then has like folders for containing the pictures of her related.
00:27:34.800 --> 00:27:39.100
So like, let's say if you've got a shirt or jacket, a few angles of the shirt, and then
00:27:39.100 --> 00:27:42.880
threw those in a directory and then did that for everything in her closet.
00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:50.320
And then took influencers that she likes, like a couple of social media accounts that do fashion
00:27:50.320 --> 00:27:52.440
shots that she likes how they dress.
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.600
And then throws AI at it and scripts the whole thing with Python.
00:27:56.600 --> 00:28:03.520
So this thing will tell her for this particular person that this look for this from this photo,
00:28:03.520 --> 00:28:09.120
you can kind of do this look if you use this shirt and those pants and these shoes.
00:28:09.520 --> 00:28:13.120
So you've already like what you've already got, you can remix it this way.
00:28:13.120 --> 00:28:13.480
Yeah.
00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:20.440
And I think that's, it's probably more of an ad for Google AI products, but I think it's
00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:26.760
a cool, like you could do this, you know, with some free time and stuff and with some Python
00:28:26.760 --> 00:28:28.100
code to push it together.
00:28:28.100 --> 00:28:29.240
I love this idea.
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:29.880
It's pretty cool.
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:30.160
Yeah.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:30.460
It's pretty.
00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:30.840
All right.
00:28:30.840 --> 00:28:31.280
Two thoughts.
00:28:31.840 --> 00:28:36.140
So one, I remember my statistics class, they talked about, well, if you have like three
00:28:36.140 --> 00:28:42.680
shirts and two pants and five socks and two pairs of shoes, how many, you know, here's
00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:47.220
the combinatorics of how many like combinations you might have.
00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:47.420
Right.
00:28:47.420 --> 00:28:47.660
Yeah.
00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:49.960
So those numbers get enormous, like super quick.
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:55.000
So this just says like, there's these, these outfits that you didn't even know you could create
00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:00.160
out of like the a hundred million possible things from your closet, which is a combinations
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:00.740
from your closet.
00:29:00.820 --> 00:29:01.260
That's pretty cool.
00:29:01.260 --> 00:29:01.560
Yeah.
00:29:01.560 --> 00:29:03.620
And also like she had to put it in place.
00:29:03.620 --> 00:29:05.980
One of the things she had to do is put in place like a score.
00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:11.160
So if you like, for instance, if you've got like multiple gray shirts, they all might fit
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:16.500
picture with the gray shirt, but they, she made it so that there was scoring so that you'd
00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:20.000
get the, like the, you can pick the highest score outfit or something.
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:20.400
Nice.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:21.480
All right.
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:21.940
That's cool.
00:29:21.940 --> 00:29:26.400
My other one is somebody should do this, but just for hairstyles and like beard styles,
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.720
if you're a man, have it pick a style.
00:29:28.900 --> 00:29:31.000
And then that person has to get that cut.
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:33.100
Right.
00:29:33.100 --> 00:29:37.760
You're like, all right, this month I'm going to look like this.
00:29:37.760 --> 00:29:38.400
Oh my gosh.
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:38.840
All right.
00:29:38.840 --> 00:29:39.700
Here we go.
00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:41.100
Why not?
00:29:41.100 --> 00:29:41.820
Oh, okay.
00:29:42.340 --> 00:29:47.600
You'd have to like, sort of make it like short, long to short or something because you can't
00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:48.400
go backwards.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:48.880
Yeah.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:49.240
Yeah.
00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:53.440
I guess you'd have to like sort by a order because it takes, you got to wait longer to
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:54.540
get it to grow back out.
00:29:54.540 --> 00:29:55.420
Sort by handling.
00:29:55.420 --> 00:29:55.840
Yeah.
00:29:55.840 --> 00:29:56.280
There you go.
00:29:56.280 --> 00:29:56.720
Awesome.
00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:56.960
Yeah.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:01.920
But there's, there's some facial hairstyles that if we could get a tool that would tell people
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:08.680
to not try certain facial hairstyles based on what they, their face shape is, that would
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:08.940
be good.
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:14.320
That would be very, I did see a guy who had like a super big beard and decided to cut it
00:30:14.320 --> 00:30:14.500
off.
00:30:14.500 --> 00:30:18.300
But instead of just shaving it off, they were very careful and they came up with like 10
00:30:18.300 --> 00:30:19.500
or 11 different styles.
00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:22.600
They shave it to one, take a picture, shave it to the next, take a picture.
00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:23.880
It was actually pretty interesting.
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:24.380
Yeah.
00:30:24.540 --> 00:30:25.960
But yeah, there's some that shouldn't be done.
00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:27.680
All right.
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.620
Well, I already went off the, off the deep end on the extras.
00:30:30.620 --> 00:30:31.020
How about you?
00:30:31.020 --> 00:30:31.500
Yeah.
00:30:31.500 --> 00:30:33.720
Let's skip to the joke, man.
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:34.180
Oh man.
00:30:34.180 --> 00:30:35.300
Sounds good to me.
00:30:35.300 --> 00:30:36.340
All right.
00:30:36.340 --> 00:30:40.800
So this is a little bit of back to the future, Marty McFly and doc, all that stuff.
00:30:40.800 --> 00:30:46.820
So, you know, he's got that cool DeLorean, that stainless steel DeLorean and it's got
00:30:46.820 --> 00:30:47.740
the flux capacitor.
00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:53.280
So this is a little, little graphic from a dev humor from comic strip.com.
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:57.140
And it's set in January, 2006.
00:30:57.140 --> 00:30:57.980
All right.
00:30:57.980 --> 00:30:59.860
I'll be Marty and you can be doc.
00:30:59.860 --> 00:31:00.140
Okay.
00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:00.560
Okay.
00:31:00.560 --> 00:31:01.000
All right.
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:04.420
So sitting in the DeLorean about to take off this.
00:31:04.420 --> 00:31:06.260
So what's it like in the future doc?
00:31:06.260 --> 00:31:07.960
Is everyone using CSS three?
00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:09.580
Wait, wait, you'll see.
00:31:09.580 --> 00:31:11.420
We're heading to 2020.
00:31:11.420 --> 00:31:16.720
Knowing all the problems you have with IE6, I'll give you something to look forward to.
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:20.780
Then in May, 2020, there's a big billboard that says Microsoft edge.
00:31:20.900 --> 00:31:24.080
The IE successor based on Google Chromium engine is coming to Linux.
00:31:24.080 --> 00:31:25.420
Incredible.
00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:27.120
Why?
00:31:27.120 --> 00:31:27.880
Okay.
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:29.020
Yeah.
00:31:29.020 --> 00:31:30.580
Because it can.
00:31:30.580 --> 00:31:32.660
Just because it can.
00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:33.960
I have.
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:38.800
So I've got a work computer that's Windows and I still don't use Edge.
00:31:38.800 --> 00:31:40.080
And you're so far behind the times.
00:31:40.080 --> 00:31:41.380
I've got Edge installed on my Mac.
00:31:41.380 --> 00:31:42.000
You do?
00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:43.360
Apparently it installs on a Mac.
00:31:43.360 --> 00:31:43.560
Yeah.
00:31:43.560 --> 00:31:46.080
But do you, did you install it?
00:31:46.080 --> 00:31:46.600
I did.
00:31:46.600 --> 00:31:49.100
Now the question is, do I use it?
00:31:49.100 --> 00:31:52.060
I've got like several browsers that I just don't really use.
00:31:52.060 --> 00:31:53.420
I've got Edge.
00:31:53.420 --> 00:31:54.940
I've got Brave.
00:31:54.940 --> 00:31:56.840
And I've got Opera.
00:31:56.840 --> 00:31:58.400
And I don't really use any of those.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:31:59.960
I just basically use Firefox.
00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:01.720
Unless Firefox doesn't work, then I use Chrome.
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:02.040
Yeah.
00:32:02.040 --> 00:32:02.500
Okay.
00:32:02.560 --> 00:32:03.060
So, yeah.
00:32:03.060 --> 00:32:04.680
But I technically have it installed.
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:08.920
I get this big pop-up that has to update it about every three weeks.
00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:10.180
Like, there's an update for your computer.
00:32:10.180 --> 00:32:11.440
Click here to upgrade Edge.
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:13.000
I'm like, I don't even run this thing.
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:13.940
Why do I keep getting this?
00:32:13.940 --> 00:32:15.120
I know I get it.
00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:16.780
But like, why do I have to keep getting it, I guess?
00:32:16.780 --> 00:32:20.040
You know, there's still lots of people that don't know what browser they use.
00:32:20.040 --> 00:32:24.320
They just, they don't even know what, if you ask them what browser they use, they
00:32:24.320 --> 00:32:25.240
don't know what you're saying.
00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:25.560
Yeah.
00:32:25.560 --> 00:32:27.400
It's just the internet.
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:29.800
Well, what do you look on the websites for?
00:32:29.800 --> 00:32:30.720
I open the internet.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.480
You know, the internet is not an application.
00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:34.960
What?
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:35.480
It's not?
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:36.760
Awesome.
00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:37.020
Yeah.
00:32:37.020 --> 00:32:41.320
So, that's a pretty good little shoot to the future one.
00:32:41.320 --> 00:32:41.760
Yeah.
00:32:41.760 --> 00:32:42.960
So, link to that in the show notes.
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:44.100
People want to check out the graphics.
00:32:44.100 --> 00:32:45.460
Well, thanks a lot.
00:32:45.460 --> 00:32:45.960
Yeah, you bet.
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:46.580
Thanks for being here.
00:32:46.580 --> 00:32:47.760
And thanks to everyone for listening.
00:32:47.760 --> 00:32:48.140
See y'all.
00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:48.340
Bye.
00:32:48.340 --> 00:32:50.340
Thank you for listening to Python Bytes.
00:32:50.340 --> 00:32:52.860
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00:32:52.860 --> 00:32:55.720
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00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:58.960
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00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:03.160
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00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:05.860
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00:33:05.860 --> 00:33:08.980
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00:33:08.980 --> 00:33:12.400
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