Wicked Problem Solving with Tom Wujec

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Elizabeth: Everywhere we
look, problems surround us.

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Some are simple, like staring at
a to-do list that feels impossible

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to finish or even to start.

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Others are more complex like when a
team loses trust after a project failure

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and every decision turns into a battle,
and then there are wicked problems.

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Those tangled systemic
challenges with no clear answer.

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Think about ai.

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As we rely on it more, are we
strengthening our abilities

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or slowly eroding them for
industrial and systems engineers?

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Solving problems is at the very heart
of the profession, but here's the catch.

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The tools that work beautifully
on one kind of problem often

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fail miserably on another.

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So the real question is how
do we match the right approach

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to the right kind of problem?

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On this episode of Problem Solved,
Tom w Check walks us through a method

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called Wicked Problem Solving, using
visualization tools that equips you

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to tackle everything from the simplest
task to the most wicked problem.

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David : This episode is brought to
you by IISE's Performance Excellence

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Webinars helping you grow your
career with skills and leadership

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You can find the full
webinar library anytime at

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iise.org/performance-excellence.

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Elizabeth: Hi everyone, and welcome
to Problem Solved, the IISE Podcast.

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Today we're talking to Tom Wujec,
a designer technologist, TED

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speaker, and global authority
on creative collaboration.

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Tom has helped Fortune 500 companies
tackle some of their toughest challenges,

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guiding leaders in industries from
manufacturing, to healthcare to retail.

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He's the creator of Wicked Problem
Solving, founder of the Wujec Group

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and bestselling author whose books and
workshops have inspired teams worldwide.

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Tom, you are a professional problem
solver, so it's great to have you on.

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Problem Solved.

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Thank you for being here.

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Tom Wujec: It's my pleasure.

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Thank you so much for inviting me.

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Elizabeth: Well, many of our listeners
may know you from the TED Talk

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stage where you've shown how playful
tools like marshmallows, spaghetti

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and doodles on sticky notes can
help solve really serious problems.

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So I'm just curious what first sparked
your interest in using these tactile

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and visual tools for problem solving?

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Tom Wujec: I began my career, uh, studying
astrophysics and physiological psychology,

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and I found that, and in order for me
to understand, uh, how the world worked,

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I needed to create a, a picture or an
illustration, or a sketch or a doodle.

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And I found that, um, a really
powerful tool to make sense

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of the world that we live in.

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When I shifted from school to work,
I became creative director eventually

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of, uh, Canada's largest museum, the
Royal Ontario Museum, and we would

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have teams that would work together
to create exhibits to tell the stories

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of science, nature, and discovery.

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And as so often happens, everyone
had a different concept, a different

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mental model of what was important.

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The curator said this,
the educator said that.

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And so the usual way of talking.

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Didn't quite work because people
would go around in circles.

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And what we learned in the design
phase with the design group is that

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when we made ideas visible, when we
literally posted sticky notes on the

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wall, illustrating what people said.

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The meetings changed.

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People shifted from talking at each
other to building a shared framework,

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and so we moved from a, a, uh,
confrontational way of working to one

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in which we collectively built a common
shared picture that actually ended

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up being a, a, a powerful tool that I
ended up using in building software,

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helping organizations figure out how
to build faster, better cars and so on.

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Elizabeth: Yeah.

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And just a quick note for our listeners,
uh, we wanna invite you to check out the

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video of this episode on YouTube to really
see Tom's visualization method in action.

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Tom, can you tell us about the
technology that you're using today?

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I think you designed it.

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Tom Wujec: I did actually.

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So for those of you who are watching this,
um, I am, uh, in front of a large tablet.

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It's called a Cintiq tablet.

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And I will be do drawing and doodling,
doodling, um, and making simple

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sketches to help illustrate the points.

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Normally I have very rich, sophisticated,
interactive 3D graphics, but for

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today's conversation, I thought it
would be much more interesting to

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have loose, sketchy drawings because
that's kind of what we normally do

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when we solve problems visually.

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Getting up to a WA whiteboard,
you know what this is like?

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And starting to create lines,
boxes, circles, two by two

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diagrams to make our ideas visible.

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So those of you who are watching will
see an application called Sketchbook Pro.

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It was interesting 'cause we, we took a
$40,000 graphic application that required.

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The, um, the horsepower of a
Silicon Graphics workstation.

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Some of you know what that is.

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And then we par boiled it down into,
uh, a $200 application and eventually

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we've made it available for free.

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So at one point 40 million
people were using Sketchbook Pro.

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Elizabeth: Wow.

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That's amazing.

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So industrial and systems engineers
are trained to solve problems, but

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when uncertainty or scale or people
get added into the mix, those tried

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and true methods don't always hold up.

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And you've talked about how problems
fall along a spectrum and how

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our brains often struggle when we
treat all problems the same way.

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Can you talk a little bit about why old
problem solving methods fail us sometimes,

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especially when things get more complex.

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Tom Wujec: Sure.

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So problems fall along a certain spectrum,
and I think we all intuitively know this.

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There are simple problems that have
relatively few elements to them.

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Uh, few nodes, few connections.

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And then there are complicated problems
like figuring out tax code where we

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know all the elements, but there's lots
of them that kind of tax our brain.

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And then we have the complex problems.

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Uh, so these are problems where
we don't know all of the elements,

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and many of them are fluid.

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Or ambiguous, sometimes emotionally
charged, they're harder to solve.

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And then there are the wicked
problems, which are often vast.

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The grand challenges are
wicked, uh, climate change.

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Um, the impact of AI have
elements that we don't know about.

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And even different people frame
the problems in differing ways.

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So in order for us to be able to
tackle and tame these problems,

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we need to select the kinds of
thinking that suit the problems.

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Elizabeth: Okay?

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And so.

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When we're in a group, we
have some limitations on us.

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Um, you can't predict how
other people are gonna react.

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Uh, everybody's brains work
a little bit different.

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Can you talk us through
how to navigate that?

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Tom Wujec: Sure.

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I mean, there's lots of
problems with problem solving.

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Um, but they kind of can be boiled
down into three big buckets.

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The first is our limited brain power.

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Yeah.

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We all to be able to,
uh, attend to 2, 3, 7.

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I don't know if I can attend
to seven things at one time.

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Uh, at, and so our attention
is a limiting factor.

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We only can keep so much information
in our internal working memory.

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It's limited, it has a cap.

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Secondly, different people have
different working memories.

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They have different dynamics
of how things fit together.

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A lawyer sees a situation in one way.

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Um, a, a programmer will see a
situation in another, a systems

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engineer will see it in another.

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So we all have hammers to see the
nail, to address the nails that we see.

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And then thirdly, um, we
don't typically use a shared.

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Process of creative collaboration.

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So the combination of these three
factors, limited brain power, the

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differing dynamics of people, and
an ad hoc method of, um, problem

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solving prevents us from focusing and
getting the genius o out of the team.

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Elizabeth: Okay.

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So how do we tackle this?

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And you've talked about using
kind of sports, uh, as an analogy.

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Can you talk about that?

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Tom Wujec: Sure.

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So we use the concept called plays.

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So play is a time-bound structured
activity that guides people

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through a particular activity.

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When you think of a sporting event
or a sporting team, the team that

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has the best plays and runs them well
is typically the one that brings.

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Creates the goals.

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Um, so what plays do I in the, and
we'll explain what a wicked problem

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solving or a problem solving play
looks like in just a second, is they

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give us a sense of psychological
safety because there is a process

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and a method for us to move forward.

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Secondly, they help us see.

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Ideas so that we're not just talking,
but there's a visual component

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that allows us to make information
visible, persistent, and movable.

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That's really critical.

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And thirdly, it transfers
the way in which we interact.

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So rather than just.

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Um, argued debate, which
is an important factor.

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We are building a little systems model
of the problem at hand, different options

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and how we, um, uh, how we we solve them.

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So the interesting thing is that
system engineers are experts at this.

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And so what I'm here to share are
how to apply these innate skills that

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you've cultivated into other types of
problems that, um, you may not address

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or that you'd like to address better.

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So before we get to that, what I'd
love to do is to talk about the

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elements of a play in a sporting event.

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There are physical actions, mental
actions, psychomotor skills.

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In wicked problem solving.

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You can boil it down to three things.

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First is to use questions, lead
with questions, and use questions

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to focus and frame the topic.

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And by selectively.

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Strategically using questions
and asking them better, we become

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instantly better problem solvers.

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Second is to make ideas visible.

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The simple act of creating a visual
representation of the thing that

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you're working on, which can be a
doodle, a sticky note, a word, uh,

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a chart, a systems model, whatever.

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Is appropriate helps us externalize our
thought, take it out of our head and

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into a shared surface so that we can
expand and multiply our working memory.

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And then the third thing is to
think about what are the tasks

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that we can perform to solve the
question, to answer the question.

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Typically using, uh, some visuals.

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So posting, drawing, um, sorting.

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Rearranging voting, all of these very
simple actions lower the transaction

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cost of going through the problem.

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Okay?

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So three principles and
it's simple questions.

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Make them visible and then
have some clear tasks.

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So let's show some simple plays and
how you can, uh, work through them.

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Elizabeth: Okay, so how would we
run a play to tackle the problem?

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Kind of a simple problem of
somebody feeling overwhelmed, they

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have too much to do, what would
they, how would a play look like?

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Tom Wujec: Sure.

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So it's really simple.

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So the first thing that you
do, um, in, um, with a simple

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problem got too much to do.

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Elizabeth: I love your,
I love your drawings

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Tom Wujec: is, um, is to make some space.

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So, uh, so, so create a physical space or
digital, but physical space has a added

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benefit of engaging your physical body.

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Um, and it, it's.

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It's something that we remember as kids
and we've done as kids, but we forget,

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uh, forget as professional adults, but
the simple act of writing physically and

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using physical, sticky notes, changes,
um, how we interact with the information.

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So create a stage.

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Um, and so that can be, uh, a
whiteboard, a book, uh, some sticky

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notes, a laptop with some, uh, sticky
note software like mural or mural or

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one of the other great ones as well.

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And you frame the question, which is,
uh, how should I organize my day or week?

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So you begin with the question.

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And then you have a space within
which to, uh, run your play.

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The first step of the play
typically is to populate it.

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You write what is on your mind, and so
typically using a number of notes, you

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do what's called a mind dump, and you
exhaust, you get all of the ideas out,

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out of your head, down to a surface.

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That can take a minute, five
minutes, often, 10 minutes,

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um, sometimes even more.

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And that act, once you get to the
final thing, is remarkably lib

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liberating because you've exhausted
you've, you've performed a transaction

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in which you have systematically
created a data object for each of

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the elements that are on your mind.

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Then what?

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Um, you make sense of them.

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You arrange them into,
um, various structures.

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So by making it visible and adding a
visual structure, you add another element.

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So what kind of structure?

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Um, you can, uh, organize it from
non-urgent to, uh, or something that you

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can do now to something that you do later.

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So simple.

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Or you can arrange it
onto a two by two diagram.

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We're all familiar with the, um.

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The diagram of urgent and not important.

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And not important.

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And those diagrams, those, uh,
sticky notes can be arranged,

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uh, into the, the diagram.

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And there are others that you can
also choose, depending on what's the

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underlying thing that's bothering you.

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So maybe it's something
that you are ignoring.

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So what are the things that
you're ignoring and what are

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you, um, what are you addressing?

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So the, again, the act
of making visible the.

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Mental model that you have becomes a very
powerful tool to, uh, diffuse the power of

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it, but also to help you get to clarity,
um, and figure out what's important.

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Typically, people will then just do
a voting, uh, activity and then turn

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it into the actual execution plan.

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So the thing, if there's one thing
that I would love for, um, you and and

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your listeners to remember is the term
space to solve problems visually, you

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go through a process of making space.

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So this is both literal and figurative.

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It's literal in the sense that
you create physical space.

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Um.

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A place to think, um, to
communicate and to collaborate,

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but also a psychological space.

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You pause and, uh, figure, go through a
series of simple, easy to do steps, which

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support and reinforce your thinking.

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Each of the letters represent a
word, so s sense stands for stage.

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It's all about creating a physical
or digital place where you can,

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uh, make your ideas visible.

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The next, uh.

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Uh, word is populate and that means you,
within this stage that you've created,

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you place information, whatever it may
happen to be, from tooo items to customer

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needs to, uh, issues into that space.

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Super simple.

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Next is arrange the space,
the items within the space

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that correspond to a model.

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And we're gonna talk about
these in a second that supports

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the problem to be solved.

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If it's a timeline you need to
arrange, you arrange it in a timeline.

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If it's dilemmas that you need
to arrange, uh, and organize,

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it's within a two by two matrix.

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If it's some other model,
like what is hidden, what is

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surface, it's another drawing.

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If it's a, a root cause diagram, it's
another, so the, the visual structure

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supports and reinforces the mental model.

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That you use to solve the problem.

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Next you choose.

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So of the model that you have
chosen, um, you can select the

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elements that are relevant.

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And then finally, um, exit.

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Which is converting the
complexity into a task list.

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Um, complexity is the enemy of
execution, which is a term I, or a

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phrase I once heard, and I love it.

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So, um, so we, through this process
of making space, staging, populating,

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arranging, choosing, and exiting,
we have a kind of a universal

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model that can be applied to
simple and as we'll see to complex,

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complicated, and even wicked problems.

290
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Elizabeth: And it does
seem quite intuitive.

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00:16:20,850 --> 00:16:24,569
You know, you, you take a breath,
you do a brain dump, you sort of

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prioritize and you make a plan.

293
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Um, and it, once you see it all
laid out like that, it doesn't

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feel quite so overwhelming.

295
00:16:32,220 --> 00:16:37,860
Tom Wujec: So what I also wanna say about
space is that making the habit of taking.

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00:16:38,265 --> 00:16:43,245
10 minutes a week or a day,
uh, can be transformational.

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00:16:43,455 --> 00:16:47,444
Uh, I've worked with a very wide range
of organizations and one of the, the,

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um, practices that I'm seeing many
companies, companies that make footwear

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and large retailers and, uh, car
companies, AI companies, is that the,

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at the beginning of the week, um, the.

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Teams need to get together to
talk about what's important.

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And typically there's a structured
process of doing it, but often one

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of the most, um, simple and powerful
ways is to just create a group

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space, large whiteboard where people
simply share, uh, what's important.

305
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A weekly standup.

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00:17:15,170 --> 00:17:17,570
Everyone writes silently on sticky notes.

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00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,030
They place them up on the
wall in no particular order.

308
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Everyone can see what's
on everyone else's mind.

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It's happening in parallel.

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And then they go through a process
of what's called a silent sort,

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where anyone can move any note
anywhere, uh, to find common clusters.

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And what's powerful about this?

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00:17:37,850 --> 00:17:45,290
Is that you may begin with 15, uh,
different notes of differing points

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00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:51,710
of view, and then, uh, they can get
clustered into a few categories, which

315
00:17:51,710 --> 00:17:53,840
the grant group then decides upon.

316
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,100
So there can be hidden issues that are
surfaced or issues that then get targeted.

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Um.

318
00:17:59,375 --> 00:18:04,505
The difference here is that you've moved
from working, um, linearly, talking,

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talking, talking where one person might
command, and then you'll have 10 minutes

320
00:18:08,315 --> 00:18:13,655
of conversation to one, which you do a
three minute exercise where you get to

321
00:18:13,655 --> 00:18:18,290
see everyone's ideas all at once, not just
the one person who's talking, and then

322
00:18:18,395 --> 00:18:22,715
a collaborative activity where you bring
it all together into a common framework.

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00:18:23,015 --> 00:18:26,135
So that simple shift of
having a visual workspace.

324
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,439
The practice of populating ideas,
putting them up onto the wall,

325
00:18:30,830 --> 00:18:33,830
um, is something that can be
done for very simple activities.

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And then we train people to do this
for much more complex issues, such as

327
00:18:39,260 --> 00:18:43,730
their thought leadership strategies,
um, or, uh, building surgical

328
00:18:43,730 --> 00:18:45,770
playbooks in developing countries.

329
00:18:45,980 --> 00:18:47,510
So again, that simple.

330
00:18:48,145 --> 00:18:52,915
Transaction of making space can
be applied to increasingly deep

331
00:18:53,005 --> 00:18:54,985
and rich levels of conversation.

332
00:18:55,315 --> 00:18:59,965
So it's a great practice that you
may want to, um, explore and try.

333
00:19:00,265 --> 00:19:03,865
There's one, if there's a second thing
to do, get a really good whiteboard

334
00:19:03,865 --> 00:19:05,575
or a movable, uh, whiteboard.

335
00:19:06,415 --> 00:19:06,745
Elizabeth: Yeah.

336
00:19:06,745 --> 00:19:10,975
I would also imagine that in that
kind of exercise has to be a pretty.

337
00:19:11,365 --> 00:19:14,995
Kind of a safe culture for everyone to,
to feel safe and putting what they're

338
00:19:14,995 --> 00:19:17,379
thinking, just putting it out there
for everyone to see without judgment.

339
00:19:19,470 --> 00:19:20,280
Tom Wujec: Uh, it's true.

340
00:19:20,405 --> 00:19:24,750
And, and, uh, so people who lead this
practice are, are ones that make,

341
00:19:24,930 --> 00:19:27,420
um, make emotional space available.

342
00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:27,480
Yeah.

343
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:30,030
So there's no judgment will we?

344
00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:33,060
There are differing
phases of creative work.

345
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:35,970
Uh, Pixar uses a term called creative.

346
00:19:36,895 --> 00:19:37,825
Collaboration.

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00:19:37,975 --> 00:19:40,495
We'll talk a little bit about that in,
in a little bit more detail, but there

348
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are differing phases of creative work.

349
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One is, which, one of which
is called creative abrasion.

350
00:19:47,185 --> 00:19:48,625
Now there's creative agility.

351
00:19:48,625 --> 00:19:49,885
Now there's creative alignment.

352
00:19:50,185 --> 00:19:56,515
Creative abrasion is about, uh,
making space available to, uh, build

353
00:19:56,695 --> 00:19:58,885
a marketplace of diverse ideas.

354
00:19:59,095 --> 00:20:03,715
When the manager who needs
the skills of welcoming of.

355
00:20:04,105 --> 00:20:11,305
Inviting diversity of ideas
and of concepts and, um, and

356
00:20:11,305 --> 00:20:12,925
providing them with merit.

357
00:20:13,075 --> 00:20:16,465
So you're not immediately dismissing
the ideas, but you're incorporating

358
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them as part of the, the, the whole is,
is a really valuable and increasingly

359
00:20:22,945 --> 00:20:28,345
vital management skill, being able to,
uh, manage this marketplace of ideas.

360
00:20:29,145 --> 00:20:34,125
Is, uh, is a critical tool and
only one of the entire creative,

361
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uh, collaboration process.

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Elizabeth: We'll be back with more
right after a word from our sponsor.

363
00:20:42,450 --> 00:20:45,960
David : The season Premier of
Problem Solved is sponsored by IIS

364
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365
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366
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367
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368
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369
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370
00:21:14,025 --> 00:21:16,155
Elizabeth: Welcome back to
Problem Solved with Tom W. Check,

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00:21:16,635 --> 00:21:21,525
Tom Wujec: very often, uh, uh, we're
asked to, uh, solve a technical pipeline

372
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or improve how teams will work together.

373
00:21:25,545 --> 00:21:30,435
And what we found over the last decade
or so is increasingly organizations,

374
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um, struggle with the concept of trust.

375
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Not even the concept of trust, but the um.

376
00:21:37,575 --> 00:21:43,575
Um, the dynamic of trust, how when
a project is broken or if, uh, teams

377
00:21:43,575 --> 00:21:48,135
have differing values or they've
had some bad experiences, trust is

378
00:21:48,555 --> 00:21:52,545
broken, and as a result, the team
dynamics doesn't, doesn't really work.

379
00:21:52,965 --> 00:21:54,855
So engineering methods.

380
00:21:54,900 --> 00:22:01,830
Typically don't work so well to, um, deal
with these, um, uh, more nuanced issues.

381
00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:07,500
So we did a, a, a project for
a large, large games company.

382
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They one of the largest games company,
um, in the world, and they have a

383
00:22:11,730 --> 00:22:13,530
dozen and a half studios globally.

384
00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:19,534
And so they were looking to build a.
Uh, or integrate a common gaming engine

385
00:22:19,534 --> 00:22:22,205
between the studios and it wasn't working.

386
00:22:22,264 --> 00:22:24,215
And this was a problem that
they were struggling with

387
00:22:24,215 --> 00:22:26,105
for, uh, about 10 years or so.

388
00:22:26,405 --> 00:22:30,335
So they invited us in to help figure
out what are the technical dynamics.

389
00:22:30,365 --> 00:22:34,504
So we went through several meetings
to help frame and to explore what

390
00:22:34,504 --> 00:22:35,855
was the real problem underneath.

391
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,510
Fast forward after eight weeks.

392
00:22:38,540 --> 00:22:41,899
Finally, one of the group members
said, you know, I think it's a

393
00:22:41,899 --> 00:22:44,060
problem of trust, a lack of trust.

394
00:22:44,210 --> 00:22:49,129
So I'd like your listeners to think
about, uh, what plays would you run?

395
00:22:49,340 --> 00:22:53,330
How would you go through a
process of staging, populating,

396
00:22:53,389 --> 00:22:57,110
arranging, choosing, and executing?

397
00:22:57,470 --> 00:22:58,610
Um, trust.

398
00:23:00,014 --> 00:23:03,075
Then what I'll do is I'll
share some examples of how we

399
00:23:03,075 --> 00:23:04,875
would do, how we did do this.

400
00:23:05,445 --> 00:23:09,254
So we framed the question
of how do we rebuild trust?

401
00:23:09,345 --> 00:23:15,225
Even the act of saying that was a powerful
tonic because, um, um, folks would go,

402
00:23:15,284 --> 00:23:17,355
yeah, yeah, that's actually the problem.

403
00:23:17,355 --> 00:23:20,564
And then no one kind of really
made eye contact for a while,

404
00:23:20,804 --> 00:23:21,615
so how do you tackle it?

405
00:23:21,825 --> 00:23:22,034
So.

406
00:23:22,485 --> 00:23:29,595
Um, so here we went through several gentle
phases to make the transaction cost low,

407
00:23:29,805 --> 00:23:35,025
easy, and even fun to be able to dig
into the nature of this complex problem.

408
00:23:35,355 --> 00:23:40,365
So, uh, our first pass of going through
space was to frame the question and then

409
00:23:40,365 --> 00:23:43,095
ask people to define, uh, what is trust.

410
00:23:43,635 --> 00:23:48,135
And so people would begin talking
in small groups and go, no, no, no.

411
00:23:48,505 --> 00:23:51,235
Let's use sticky notes and
let's populate them on the wall.

412
00:23:51,235 --> 00:23:55,975
So people would, um, each person would
have six or eight different qualities

413
00:23:55,975 --> 00:24:02,125
of trust, empathy, understanding,
um, vision, um, trustworthiness.

414
00:24:02,215 --> 00:24:04,795
Chris, what does that mean
when you're defining trust?

415
00:24:05,095 --> 00:24:09,625
And so the, and so we would have many,
um, arrangements, uh, of them, and

416
00:24:09,625 --> 00:24:11,545
then we ask them to cluster those.

417
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,860
Into a, um, a single framework.

418
00:24:14,860 --> 00:24:17,860
So what are the common
clusters of, of trust?

419
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:19,870
So what do we, uh, align on?

420
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:27,159
And what we, um, then ended up having is
a visual structure, which is actually a.

421
00:24:27,555 --> 00:24:28,365
Equation.

422
00:24:28,485 --> 00:24:32,025
And, um, and since many of them were
engineers, this was just really up

423
00:24:32,025 --> 00:24:35,205
the alley to clarify what trust meant.

424
00:24:35,745 --> 00:24:41,355
And so this first learned this working
with, uh, the Chief Technical officer,

425
00:24:41,535 --> 00:24:47,295
uh, CTO of Lucasfilm, the 20, 25 years
ago when he was sharing his insights on

426
00:24:47,295 --> 00:24:49,935
how to, uh, make his teams more effective.

427
00:24:50,235 --> 00:24:54,555
And he said that his CTO
20 years ago did this.

428
00:24:54,935 --> 00:24:56,165
He made a napkin.

429
00:24:56,165 --> 00:24:58,565
I saw the napkin over there
in the back studio there.

430
00:24:58,865 --> 00:25:03,185
Um, and he wrote the, um, the, the
letters T, which stood for trust equals

431
00:25:03,185 --> 00:25:10,775
C times C times C, all over R. And um,
so you might ask the question, what

432
00:25:10,775 --> 00:25:12,875
do the, the, the letters stand for?

433
00:25:13,535 --> 00:25:18,425
And so in his framework, um,
C, the first C was capability,

434
00:25:18,875 --> 00:25:21,905
your ability to get things done.

435
00:25:21,935 --> 00:25:24,455
Are you able to do what
you say you're going to do?

436
00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:27,210
Next was character.

437
00:25:27,630 --> 00:25:29,100
Are you true to your word?

438
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,240
Will you follow up and will you do
what you say you're going to do?

439
00:25:34,260 --> 00:25:36,000
And the third was caring.

440
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,580
Um, do you give a flying?

441
00:25:39,180 --> 00:25:40,950
I use some colorful language there.

442
00:25:41,490 --> 00:25:43,260
Um, are you empathetic?

443
00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:48,540
Are you willing to put someone else's
needs at your level or even higher?

444
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,680
And so these qualities,
the higher they are.

445
00:25:53,325 --> 00:25:56,415
The higher the trust is on the
other side of the equation.

446
00:25:56,955 --> 00:26:03,165
And so what this did is externalized the
act of, um, uh, talking about a gnarly

447
00:26:03,165 --> 00:26:08,025
subject where we can get self-conscious
into something that becomes, uh,

448
00:26:08,055 --> 00:26:12,915
externalized and easy to, easier to
talk about and easier to, to measure.

449
00:26:13,305 --> 00:26:17,775
And so rather, so when a project
derailed, they can talk about.

450
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:20,110
Was this a problem of skills?

451
00:26:20,379 --> 00:26:22,480
Was this a problem of not following up?

452
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,879
Was this a problem that
you had other priorities?

453
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:28,840
And then by addressing those, you
didn't change the behavior and it,

454
00:26:29,439 --> 00:26:31,270
um, it changed how people worked.

455
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,330
R this is the one that I didn't get.

456
00:26:34,389 --> 00:26:35,470
So what does R stand for?

457
00:26:36,925 --> 00:26:39,445
Risk R stands for risk.

458
00:26:39,445 --> 00:26:40,225
You are correct.

459
00:26:40,225 --> 00:26:44,965
So the higher the risk or the
higher the impact of this issue or

460
00:26:45,265 --> 00:26:51,955
project, um, the higher the Cs need
to be in order to, uh, create, um.

461
00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:54,520
Uh, a, a trusting equation.

462
00:26:54,850 --> 00:26:56,950
So this is one, and it's works.

463
00:26:57,010 --> 00:27:00,670
It works really well, but it's even
better to have a group actually go and

464
00:27:00,670 --> 00:27:02,620
build their own equations for trust.

465
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,480
So I have dozens of these and they're all
variations and some of them have sigma

466
00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:10,270
and equations and all kind of, because.

467
00:27:10,540 --> 00:27:14,290
'cause we do them with engineers,
but they, they are accurate models

468
00:27:14,290 --> 00:27:16,540
of what people feel is important.

469
00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:20,500
Uh, the important elements that
underline and underpin trust.

470
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,300
Yeah, that makes so much sense.

471
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:22,930
It does.

472
00:27:22,930 --> 00:27:24,910
And so again, we take these plays.

473
00:27:24,910 --> 00:27:29,170
So each of this, these are a plays
that breaks down a complex problem

474
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:34,780
into smaller constituent parts that are
easier to follow and easier to get right.

475
00:27:34,990 --> 00:27:37,480
So, and each of them have
this visual component.

476
00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:40,000
So again, um, how do we build trust?

477
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:40,990
We have a blank spot.

478
00:27:41,050 --> 00:27:44,710
Then we have a space where everyone
has drawn, um, their sticky notes.

479
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,120
Um, then we have this equation and so
people generate their own equations or

480
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:53,230
they can use this one here, and then
they compare their equations and go, how

481
00:27:53,230 --> 00:27:55,570
does my equation fit with your equation?

482
00:27:55,570 --> 00:27:56,440
And so.

483
00:27:56,530 --> 00:28:01,629
Typically there is a, a delta, um, in
one, in one of the key groups there.

484
00:28:01,629 --> 00:28:04,810
When we visual, we've ended, ended up
visualizing trust as a bullseye what

485
00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:08,139
was the most important and, um, t um.

486
00:28:10,245 --> 00:28:16,425
Was, um, which was transparency for
one group was way off to the side and

487
00:28:16,425 --> 00:28:18,915
another, it was right in the middle.

488
00:28:18,975 --> 00:28:23,895
And that was the block that prevented
them from collaborating because one

489
00:28:23,895 --> 00:28:26,925
group felt that they were trying to
communicate and then the others were

490
00:28:26,925 --> 00:28:30,615
ignoring the acts of transparency.

491
00:28:30,615 --> 00:28:34,305
And then others were like, um, you
know, you're not giving it to me.

492
00:28:34,815 --> 00:28:37,455
Um, and so it created
an emotional dynamic.

493
00:28:37,995 --> 00:28:42,585
So, uh, again, here we're talking about
classes of problems that are, uh, that

494
00:28:42,585 --> 00:28:46,785
often drive the underlying, uh, behaviors
as opposed to the external problems.

495
00:28:46,785 --> 00:28:46,845
Yeah.

496
00:28:46,995 --> 00:28:52,275
And so when that got, um, uh, visible,
then there was an easy behavioral

497
00:28:52,275 --> 00:28:54,165
change to say that when you.

498
00:28:54,764 --> 00:28:59,294
Um, are making a change, make this
communication visible in this way,

499
00:28:59,504 --> 00:29:03,405
communicating in this particular
pattern, and it solved the problem.

500
00:29:03,885 --> 00:29:05,745
There's much more to it, much more depth.

501
00:29:05,745 --> 00:29:11,564
And of course, this is connected to, um,
metadata visualization and um, um, you

502
00:29:11,564 --> 00:29:15,945
know, emerging AI tools to be able to
swap assets back and forth and much more.

503
00:29:15,945 --> 00:29:22,155
But if the trust isn't there, then
the dynamic of teamwork is lost and.

504
00:29:22,409 --> 00:29:25,260
Um, projects derail and businesses fail.

505
00:29:25,649 --> 00:29:28,139
So problem solving happens
at all different levels.

506
00:29:28,139 --> 00:29:32,250
So this is one example of a
complicated problem, um, that

507
00:29:32,250 --> 00:29:33,600
we, we solved with plays.

508
00:29:34,169 --> 00:29:37,439
Elizabeth: Yeah, and again, you put
that all out there for people to see.

509
00:29:37,740 --> 00:29:41,895
They maybe weren't completely on different
p. Pages, but it was just some groups

510
00:29:41,895 --> 00:29:46,305
of people had more weight on a certain
characteristic than others, and putting

511
00:29:46,305 --> 00:29:49,605
it all out there kind of helps people come
together and, and make sense of things.

512
00:29:49,875 --> 00:29:49,995
Tom Wujec: Mm-hmm.

513
00:29:50,385 --> 00:29:54,945
And, and so again, um, it's interesting
that, um, so two things I would say is

514
00:29:55,155 --> 00:29:57,525
having the structure is really critical.

515
00:29:57,975 --> 00:29:59,640
Um, so we we're.

516
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,160
That's the visual structure
because we've created a simple

517
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:05,450
visual structure in this place.

518
00:30:05,450 --> 00:30:09,020
This is an equation, or it can
be a, a bullseye of some sort.

519
00:30:09,530 --> 00:30:14,090
Um, again, provides a kind of
context and psychological safety.

520
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,250
The question is really critical because
you know that you are breaking down the

521
00:30:19,250 --> 00:30:23,210
question into subparts that will move
you forward, and then the activity.

522
00:30:23,850 --> 00:30:29,430
That is, is critical, um, are
the actions that people take

523
00:30:29,550 --> 00:30:33,629
that create the psychological
shift in them to move forward.

524
00:30:33,899 --> 00:30:37,530
So the act of going up to a
wall with your colleagues.

525
00:30:38,175 --> 00:30:43,035
Making your equation of trust and then
seeing what their others' equation

526
00:30:43,455 --> 00:30:48,615
of trust are, it creates a kind of
empathy and understanding, um, in

527
00:30:48,615 --> 00:30:53,295
which they're, you know, you, you,
you find and feel common ground.

528
00:30:53,865 --> 00:30:56,655
That's one of the benefits of activity.

529
00:30:56,715 --> 00:31:00,375
So problem solving, as we know,
is not just a mental activity.

530
00:31:00,375 --> 00:31:02,145
It can be emotional as well.

531
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:07,120
And of course it can also be, we often
do workshops where none of this happens.

532
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,550
It's all about the technical activity
of, um, solving a, uh, a systems problem,

533
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,340
quantum sensors on spacecraft and uh,
or optimizing supply chains and so on.

534
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,310
But again, it's the same
method, but then expanding,

535
00:31:22,210 --> 00:31:22,570
Elizabeth: right?

536
00:31:22,570 --> 00:31:25,720
So as problems get more and more
complicated, you kind of run

537
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,870
through the same framework several
different times and sort of get

538
00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:30,340
more and more specific each time.

539
00:31:31,035 --> 00:31:31,695
Tom Wujec: Yeah, that's right.

540
00:31:31,695 --> 00:31:35,145
So, so, um, a couple things I would also
add to this, and, and again, I'm sure

541
00:31:35,145 --> 00:31:40,155
many of your listeners know of this and,
and have played, uh, with this as well.

542
00:31:40,575 --> 00:31:47,085
Um, so again, just building on the, the
Pixar model of, uh, creative abrasion,

543
00:31:47,685 --> 00:31:53,475
agility and creative alignment, um, in
the course of a problem solving session,

544
00:31:53,745 --> 00:31:57,945
which can be 60 seconds, two minutes.

545
00:31:58,590 --> 00:32:04,020
An hour, a day, a week, often
longer, uh, or sometimes longer.

546
00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:08,700
We often need to go through
three big, uh, phases.

547
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:13,650
So the first is to ha build a
shared understanding of context.

548
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,960
So what is actually the problem?

549
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,550
What's the data that tells us?

550
00:32:17,970 --> 00:32:19,200
What are the forces?

551
00:32:19,470 --> 00:32:23,639
How can we best articulate,
um, the problem?

552
00:32:23,639 --> 00:32:24,750
How can we.

553
00:32:25,155 --> 00:32:30,345
What is the right model, visual or
otherwise that can accurately and

554
00:32:30,345 --> 00:32:32,985
defensively illustrate the problem?

555
00:32:33,615 --> 00:32:37,275
And a lot of that is, is um, is
the act of creative abrasion.

556
00:32:38,055 --> 00:32:42,075
The second key phase that we also
need to move through is to, uh, is

557
00:32:42,075 --> 00:32:46,515
to systematically create options,
not just one or two options.

558
00:32:46,575 --> 00:32:52,755
People often, one of the great challenges
of problem solving is that, um, people.

559
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:57,225
I think they're problem solving,
but they're justifying the

560
00:32:57,225 --> 00:32:58,905
choices that they've already made.

561
00:32:58,905 --> 00:33:01,725
Psychologically it's
already locked in them.

562
00:33:01,995 --> 00:33:06,255
And psychologically, with the
50 some odd biases that we

563
00:33:06,255 --> 00:33:08,445
have, we have an anchoring bias.

564
00:33:08,445 --> 00:33:13,395
And if we don't surface them by making
them visible, uh, and not debate

565
00:33:13,395 --> 00:33:15,315
them, then we will default to them.

566
00:33:15,615 --> 00:33:17,265
And so we having the.

567
00:33:17,564 --> 00:33:21,915
Uh, the, the step of systematically
creating options that are clearly

568
00:33:21,915 --> 00:33:25,875
articulated and different from
each other is a powerful tool

569
00:33:25,875 --> 00:33:27,554
to actually solve the problem.

570
00:33:28,125 --> 00:33:31,635
Otherwise, if you've already, um, made
the decision, why go through this process?

571
00:33:31,635 --> 00:33:35,324
You're just spinning, extra
spinning cycles, needle, and

572
00:33:35,324 --> 00:33:37,365
then, um, making bold choices.

573
00:33:37,365 --> 00:33:38,155
Making choices that.

574
00:33:38,735 --> 00:33:39,845
Uh, that matter.

575
00:33:40,175 --> 00:33:43,565
And so there are a, a variety
of, of, um, methods to do that.

576
00:33:43,895 --> 00:33:46,385
Again, what's so interesting
that for each of these broad

577
00:33:46,385 --> 00:33:48,935
phases of, uh, problem solving.

578
00:33:49,875 --> 00:33:55,125
We can, uh, use visual methods to be able
to explore and, and, uh, understand these.

579
00:33:55,635 --> 00:33:58,635
We've simplified this and
put this, made this space.

580
00:33:59,054 --> 00:34:04,725
So, um, this whole act that I just talked
about, abrasion agility and alignment,

581
00:34:04,754 --> 00:34:07,514
context, creating options, making choice.

582
00:34:07,935 --> 00:34:12,824
The acronym is kind of, we, we kind of
stick it into space where you create

583
00:34:12,824 --> 00:34:15,014
the space, you populate it with context.

584
00:34:15,404 --> 00:34:17,114
You, um, uh.

585
00:34:17,855 --> 00:34:20,225
Create options within the arrange section.

586
00:34:20,284 --> 00:34:24,574
You make a choice within the C-section,
then you exit with a, with a plan.

587
00:34:25,384 --> 00:34:25,895
Elizabeth: Okay.

588
00:34:26,464 --> 00:34:30,395
So are we ready to move on to a
even more complicated problem?

589
00:34:30,725 --> 00:34:30,815
Sure.

590
00:34:30,815 --> 00:34:32,975
Or what you, what you
call wicked problems.

591
00:34:33,395 --> 00:34:36,514
So first, can you tell everybody
what a wicked problem is?

592
00:34:36,935 --> 00:34:37,174
Tom Wujec: Sure.

593
00:34:37,174 --> 00:34:41,105
The, the term was, was formulated
or coined in the early seventies

594
00:34:41,105 --> 00:34:44,055
by a couple of researchers,
uh, from the university of.

595
00:34:44,775 --> 00:34:48,315
From Berkeley actually, they were
landscape architects and they said

596
00:34:48,344 --> 00:34:54,074
that, you know, there's a class of
problems, um, where the solution is

597
00:34:54,074 --> 00:34:56,715
very hard or impossible to get to.

598
00:34:57,045 --> 00:35:00,435
And they characterize these
problems as wicked problems.

599
00:35:00,645 --> 00:35:04,965
They're problems that typically
engineering or, um, the, the general

600
00:35:04,965 --> 00:35:08,505
problem solving methods available
at the time just didn't work.

601
00:35:08,955 --> 00:35:11,250
And so they had a list of
the, the 10 qualities of, of.

602
00:35:11,625 --> 00:35:12,555
Wicked problems.

603
00:35:12,885 --> 00:35:14,355
It's kind of, it's kind of zen.

604
00:35:14,385 --> 00:35:16,785
'cause the first one is I think, um.

605
00:35:17,279 --> 00:35:20,160
Defining a a wicked problem
is itself a wicked problem.

606
00:35:21,359 --> 00:35:22,259
Self preferential.

607
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,190
But the way I, I, and a lot of other
people like to define wicked problems

608
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:32,370
as, um, situations that have qualities
of wickedness and what we don't mean evil

609
00:35:32,370 --> 00:35:33,810
or we don't mean that you're from Boston.

610
00:35:34,020 --> 00:35:37,410
It means that they, there's,
uh, properties of complexity.

611
00:35:37,785 --> 00:35:41,055
So there's a lot of different
elements, um, in it.

612
00:35:41,205 --> 00:35:43,125
Fluidity, it's changing.

613
00:35:43,125 --> 00:35:46,965
It's not something that you can put
your, uh, finger on very easily.

614
00:35:47,385 --> 00:35:49,365
They're often emotionally charged.

615
00:35:49,545 --> 00:35:53,325
So people have a strong
opinion, deeply biased.

616
00:35:53,355 --> 00:35:59,895
So your way of thinking of the situation
is, uh, um, filtered through your.

617
00:36:00,420 --> 00:36:06,150
Um, through your experiences, um,
there's dilemmas and, uh, trade-offs.

618
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:09,870
In fact, there's another sort of half
dozen quality, but qualities of, of

619
00:36:09,870 --> 00:36:12,720
these, but these are, uh, ambiguous.

620
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:16,320
I would also add to, to
this, so these qualities.

621
00:36:17,550 --> 00:36:23,010
Um, make it difficult for our brains,
our limited brains, to be able to

622
00:36:23,010 --> 00:36:24,660
process and make sense of them.

623
00:36:25,260 --> 00:36:28,920
So, uh, increasingly more and
more businesses and more and more

624
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,620
of us face more wicked problems.

625
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,950
Ai, um, you know, is.

626
00:36:34,335 --> 00:36:34,995
Complex.

627
00:36:34,995 --> 00:36:35,865
It's complicated.

628
00:36:35,925 --> 00:36:37,545
It's changing so fast.

629
00:36:37,845 --> 00:36:39,945
It's emotionally charged, it's biased.

630
00:36:39,975 --> 00:36:40,605
It's good.

631
00:36:40,605 --> 00:36:41,535
It's not so good.

632
00:36:41,775 --> 00:36:42,615
There are dilemmas.

633
00:36:42,675 --> 00:36:45,075
Are we reaching the limit
of the scaling law or are we

634
00:36:45,075 --> 00:36:47,385
just, uh, in a, a, a, a blimp?

635
00:36:47,685 --> 00:36:50,260
Um, I use the, I have several
large language models.

636
00:36:50,730 --> 00:36:56,220
Day, is it improving my cognition
or am I giving my, the, the thing

637
00:36:56,220 --> 00:37:00,630
that is most human about me with my
ability to imagine and to envision and

638
00:37:00,630 --> 00:37:08,760
to articulate and to, uh, feel a way
to a, um, cognitive, uh, prosthetic.

639
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:11,975
So yeah, these are
wicked problems, as are.

640
00:37:12,825 --> 00:37:14,835
Pick political situations, pick.

641
00:37:14,925 --> 00:37:15,015
Mm-hmm.

642
00:37:15,255 --> 00:37:17,025
Um, climate change.

643
00:37:17,325 --> 00:37:18,525
Climate change for sure.

644
00:37:18,555 --> 00:37:23,025
You know, um, human rights,
um, um, develop the issues

645
00:37:23,025 --> 00:37:24,375
that developing countries face.

646
00:37:24,825 --> 00:37:29,955
And so one of the, the earlier kind,
the original definitions of problems

647
00:37:29,955 --> 00:37:33,345
is that wicked problems is that you
can't actually solve a wicked problem.

648
00:37:33,405 --> 00:37:35,505
You can only tame a wicked problem.

649
00:37:35,715 --> 00:37:38,235
And, um, for.

650
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:45,419
Your values and the group that you
represent, um, you can, um, apply methods

651
00:37:45,419 --> 00:37:51,450
and tools to be able to, uh, steer the
outcome towards your particular values.

652
00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:55,049
Elizabeth: So we're not gonna solve
climate change on this podcast.

653
00:37:55,049 --> 00:37:55,080
I

654
00:37:56,129 --> 00:37:56,640
Tom Wujec: left,

655
00:37:58,680 --> 00:37:59,565
it's 10 minutes longer.

656
00:38:00,170 --> 00:38:01,850
We would, we would nail it.

657
00:38:02,270 --> 00:38:02,570
Um,

658
00:38:02,605 --> 00:38:05,360
Elizabeth: but, but you can give
us methods on how to begin thinking

659
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,660
about these things within our own
lives and with our own professions.

660
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:09,410
Tom Wujec: Sure.

661
00:38:09,410 --> 00:38:12,020
So there, there's a, there's
a great body of knowledge.

662
00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:15,950
We, we run courses on,
uh, this and there's.

663
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:22,110
Um, fantastic tools, design thinking tools
and others that will guide you and others

664
00:38:22,110 --> 00:38:24,420
to tackle your, your wicked problems.

665
00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:28,920
Um, but what I would, uh, suggest
is there, there are things that as

666
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:35,880
systems engineers, that we can do
to, um, extend, deepen, and widen the

667
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,920
capabilities that you use every day
to address a wider set of problems.

668
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:43,500
And they are what we've
already talked about.

669
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,450
So the, the first is to make it a habit
to, when it's important, externalize

670
00:38:48,450 --> 00:38:52,320
your thinking, and that that is,
um, expand your visual toolkit.

671
00:38:52,410 --> 00:38:57,450
Know how to use a line, a two by
two, a circle, uh, know, um, the

672
00:38:57,450 --> 00:38:59,970
dynamics of, uh, a, a systems model.

673
00:39:00,030 --> 00:39:00,240
Again, we.

674
00:39:01,230 --> 00:39:05,130
This is a short podcast, so we didn't
go through the 20 essential diagrams

675
00:39:05,130 --> 00:39:09,750
that, uh, help you arrange information,
but that's, that information can,

676
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,700
um, really help give you more
models and tools that you can bring

677
00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:16,620
to bear to the situation at hand.

678
00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:20,280
Number two, uh, is to facilitate.

679
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,840
Don't just solve problems.

680
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:28,950
That is to, uh, in the act of running a
play, also being a coach to help others

681
00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:34,500
on your team and your customers select
plays that are better and run them well.

682
00:39:34,620 --> 00:39:38,580
So, uh, some of that is quite, uh,
physical if you're doing sticky

683
00:39:38,580 --> 00:39:41,100
note making, making sure that
people write complete thoughts on

684
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:45,000
their sticky notes and that they
exhaust the, uh, potential of ideas.

685
00:39:45,569 --> 00:39:47,160
The, the ideas that they need to present.

686
00:39:47,879 --> 00:39:52,259
Um, and then also, uh, coach them
on the, uh, effectiveness and

687
00:39:52,259 --> 00:39:54,359
the efficacy of, of the plague.

688
00:39:54,359 --> 00:39:55,920
Did you really expand?

689
00:39:56,100 --> 00:39:58,890
Did you or, um, are there other
ways of looking at this, et cetera,

690
00:39:59,430 --> 00:40:03,390
facilitate, don't just solve,
um, think in terms of plays.

691
00:40:03,629 --> 00:40:08,370
And the purpose of that, again, is to
pause and select the kind of thinking

692
00:40:08,490 --> 00:40:10,980
that fits the problem that you're facing.

693
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:13,379
And so as a systems.

694
00:40:13,839 --> 00:40:17,290
Engineer, you've got incredible
set of resources to bring to

695
00:40:17,290 --> 00:40:19,089
bear, and it, they feel complete.

696
00:40:19,569 --> 00:40:21,640
But what would a lawyer
say to the problem?

697
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,830
What would, um, a physician say?

698
00:40:23,830 --> 00:40:29,560
What would a, an evolutionary biologist,
they have different questions which

699
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:30,975
they visualize in different ways.

700
00:40:32,095 --> 00:40:33,234
Which are also plays.

701
00:40:33,475 --> 00:40:38,455
So by, um, incorporating the questions
that others ask, the values that

702
00:40:38,455 --> 00:40:43,464
they embody and the actions that they
perform, you dramatically expand the

703
00:40:43,464 --> 00:40:48,355
range of, of ways in which you can
think and, um, I think dramatically

704
00:40:48,355 --> 00:40:52,524
improve your, um, your value within your
organization and with your customers.

705
00:40:52,794 --> 00:40:53,935
Elizabeth: Quick question on that one.

706
00:40:53,935 --> 00:40:56,154
Is there ever too much expansion?

707
00:40:56,154 --> 00:40:58,524
Do you ever get too many
thoughts and inputs?

708
00:40:59,010 --> 00:41:00,150
Does that cloud things up?

709
00:41:00,570 --> 00:41:00,900
Tom Wujec: You bet.

710
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:05,490
So, you know, it, it, a, a good
coach will know when to stop

711
00:41:05,490 --> 00:41:07,080
the creative abrasion phase.

712
00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:10,560
We've got enough ideas, we have
enough, uh, conflicting ideas.

713
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,420
We now need to go into the development of
them, testing them, creating prototypes

714
00:41:15,420 --> 00:41:18,990
of them, um, making sure that they're
aligned with the values or the, the

715
00:41:18,990 --> 00:41:21,930
needs of the organization and the
problem that we're trying to solve.

716
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:28,080
Um, so I think there's a little bit
of art and science, um, with that, uh.

717
00:41:28,359 --> 00:41:33,069
And different industries
face different challenges.

718
00:41:33,069 --> 00:41:38,859
I, uh, in, in some industries there's
just a rush to the first solution.

719
00:41:38,950 --> 00:41:46,540
The impulse to leap to a solution,
um, is generally a bigger problem

720
00:41:46,540 --> 00:41:51,580
to solve than, um, spinning around
trying, having too many solutions.

721
00:41:51,609 --> 00:41:53,140
The fourth element was, was, um.

722
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:54,690
Lead with questions.

723
00:41:54,750 --> 00:42:00,600
So, so the act of pausing and in advance
of every play get clear about what are

724
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:07,230
you trying to solve, um, what smaller
question can we untangle so that we

725
00:42:07,230 --> 00:42:09,570
can move to solve the bigger question?

726
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:10,620
Think of trust.

727
00:42:10,890 --> 00:42:16,230
Um, the big, uh, uh, question is, is
hard to take in one gulp necessarily,

728
00:42:16,380 --> 00:42:21,305
but by breaking it down, um, uh, in this
analytic approach, we can, uh, make.

729
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:25,504
Smaller chunks, smaller leaps that
certainly in a group are, are,

730
00:42:25,509 --> 00:42:28,990
are, are easier, become masters of
questions, use them strategically.

731
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,419
And then, and then finally,
um, just continue to, to

732
00:42:34,450 --> 00:42:36,160
cultivate a curious mindset.

733
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,569
I think curiosity.

734
00:42:37,569 --> 00:42:41,830
The curiosity of how the world works,
how we can solve problems, how good you

735
00:42:41,830 --> 00:42:46,149
are as a problem solver, how you can
become better, what are your blind spots.

736
00:42:46,435 --> 00:42:51,295
That, that visual and systems
mindset is the flywheel that

737
00:42:51,295 --> 00:42:53,815
keeps our skills growing.

738
00:42:53,875 --> 00:42:57,295
I'm kind of mixing metaphors there,
but it's the, uh, these are the

739
00:42:57,295 --> 00:43:02,215
five things I would suggest are, um,
great next steps to continue to get

740
00:43:02,215 --> 00:43:04,285
better in, in, in any profession.

741
00:43:05,020 --> 00:43:08,200
Elizabeth: So these steps may come
very naturally to some people.

742
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,440
They might find these, you know,
they have strength in getting through

743
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,480
these other people, maybe not so much.

744
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,980
So if you find that you're short in an
area, what, how do you recommend somebody

745
00:43:17,980 --> 00:43:19,569
kind of betters their skills at this?

746
00:43:20,529 --> 00:43:23,140
Tom Wujec: Uh, again, we have, we have
a whole series of training courses.

747
00:43:23,140 --> 00:43:26,200
We've licensed them to, uh,
many large organizations.

748
00:43:26,319 --> 00:43:30,279
They were used, uh, by PMI, the
Project Management Institute.

749
00:43:31,050 --> 00:43:34,770
I was say, on a practical level,
um, have a notebook that has

750
00:43:34,770 --> 00:43:36,750
no lines in it, or a grid dot.

751
00:43:36,750 --> 00:43:39,570
So externalize your thinking
and ask yourself, how do I

752
00:43:39,570 --> 00:43:40,740
turn this into a picture?

753
00:43:40,980 --> 00:43:44,610
There's a great book called Art
Before Breakfast, which is a, a little

754
00:43:44,610 --> 00:43:47,580
drawing book that is just a, a fun
little thing, a little five minute

755
00:43:47,610 --> 00:43:49,680
exercise to get your brain warmed up.

756
00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:52,590
And it's, um, uh, I've, I've enjoyed that.

757
00:43:52,620 --> 00:43:56,970
Uh, as, as well, facilitate, don't
just solve, I think is, is a, is

758
00:43:56,970 --> 00:43:58,650
really taking a leadership position.

759
00:43:58,650 --> 00:43:59,940
So rather than being.

760
00:44:00,155 --> 00:44:04,715
Um, the person who's on the stage that is
solving the problem, which you sometimes

761
00:44:04,715 --> 00:44:09,905
need to do sometimes, uh, a better
solution is, is to ask questions of the

762
00:44:09,905 --> 00:44:13,025
group, to coax them to a better solution.

763
00:44:13,925 --> 00:44:18,365
Elizabeth: With these visual models
they've shown to be so effective, why

764
00:44:18,365 --> 00:44:20,135
do you think that they're not used more?

765
00:44:22,145 --> 00:44:23,435
Tom Wujec: That's a good question.

766
00:44:23,585 --> 00:44:26,345
Uh, I think there is, um.

767
00:44:27,689 --> 00:44:29,279
You know, I, I, I think
there's a couple reasons.

768
00:44:29,279 --> 00:44:36,000
One is, uh, we, we stop, we think that
drawing is a child or childish activity.

769
00:44:36,479 --> 00:44:40,229
And so even though we have fun drawing,
there is an association often with

770
00:44:40,229 --> 00:44:46,589
very senior leaders, uh, that, uh, I
don't, I don't draw, um, because it is

771
00:44:46,620 --> 00:44:50,609
beneath my elevated skill level and.

772
00:44:52,110 --> 00:44:58,590
Flip side to that is that we often
value, um, eloquence and articulation

773
00:44:58,740 --> 00:45:01,470
over simplicity and, and clarity.

774
00:45:02,460 --> 00:45:07,890
Um, second is that it, it's just not
taught because it's not part of, um.

775
00:45:08,555 --> 00:45:14,345
Our culture, I'm kind of on a mission to
teach and educate people to draw more.

776
00:45:14,345 --> 00:45:18,785
And, uh, I'm not a particularly
good illustrator or draw, but I make

777
00:45:19,235 --> 00:45:24,605
hundreds of sketches a month, um, to
help our customers think about things.

778
00:45:24,605 --> 00:45:27,980
And it's, you don't, it's not about
the technical skill that's important.

779
00:45:28,385 --> 00:45:33,305
It's the, um, knowing the language
and that can be taught in a day.

780
00:45:33,405 --> 00:45:33,435
Okay.

781
00:45:33,885 --> 00:45:37,425
Elizabeth: Well, Tom, you've shared your
knowledge and expertise with corporations

782
00:45:37,425 --> 00:45:41,835
all over the world, and now you've shared
some with us today, and our listeners

783
00:45:41,955 --> 00:45:45,045
can learn more about everything that
we've talked about in our show notes.

784
00:45:45,315 --> 00:45:48,255
Is there anything else that we
wanted to say about any, anything

785
00:45:48,255 --> 00:45:49,575
else that, uh, that we've left out?

786
00:45:50,055 --> 00:45:53,775
Tom Wujec: Um, you know, I, I, we are
just, we are relaunching, we're launching

787
00:45:53,775 --> 00:45:55,260
a whole set of courses on January.

788
00:45:56,285 --> 00:46:01,294
Um, so these and other methods, so we
are, we are launching courses on how

789
00:46:01,294 --> 00:46:07,835
to use visual thinking, um, to address
simple, medium, and, and complex problems.

790
00:46:07,835 --> 00:46:10,265
And there's apps and
decks of cards and so on.

791
00:46:10,595 --> 00:46:14,044
We have another course on, um,
making meetings that don't suck,

792
00:46:14,075 --> 00:46:15,694
which use these methods and tools.

793
00:46:15,694 --> 00:46:18,484
And soon we'll have courses
on managing projects.

794
00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:24,170
You can go to tomwujec.com and that'll
be the master, uh, location for

795
00:46:24,260 --> 00:46:28,190
where to get courses and books and
other material that you, uh, might

796
00:46:28,190 --> 00:46:29,600
be interested in, in looking at.

797
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,730
To learn more about
these methods and tools,

798
00:46:32,009 --> 00:46:33,319
Elizabeth: tomwujec.com.

799
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,640
Alright, well Tom, thank you so much for
being with us today on Problem Solved.

800
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,020
I appreciate it so, so much.

801
00:46:39,885 --> 00:46:40,413
Tom Wujec: Totally my pleasure.

802
00:46:40,413 --> 00:46:40,965
Thanks for the invitation

803
00:46:40,965 --> 00:46:45,375
Elizabeth: Thanks for listening to
Problem Solved, the IISE podcast.

804
00:46:45,525 --> 00:46:49,465
Don't miss our next episode on October
7th where we share how ISE methods,

805
00:46:49,505 --> 00:46:52,695
solve everything from Global Food
Security to TaeKwonDo performance.

806
00:46:52,725 --> 00:46:55,935
Check out the show notes for resources
from today's conversation with Tom

807
00:46:55,935 --> 00:47:00,345
Wujec and a special thanks to Tom and
IISE's performance Excellence webinars.