Trusting God, Leading Worship, and Becoming and Entrepreneur with JPM Creative

Jessica Mouser: Listen, one of my all-time favorite things is seeing how God takes ordinary faithfulness and turns it time and time again into extraordinary impacts and stories. And in this episode, I get to sit down with Jonathan Miller, who is a worship leader, creative director, and entrepreneur, to talk about what it looks like to trust God with the next step, even when the path isn't clear. From years in ministry to launching JPM Creative, Jonathan shares with us the lessons he's learned over the years about obedience, risk, leadership, and even using his creativity to serve the mission of the church. So if you've ever wondered how God might use your gifts, your story, or even your uncertainty for something greater, then this conversation will definitely encourage you to keep saying yes to him, keep taking the next step, keep having the next conversation. I'm really pumped for this one, so let's get started. Welcome. I feel like you're one of those cool dudes that gets three names. I don't know how it happened. It started with my folks, I think, and then, you know, technically it did start with them. You're right. That's a yeah. I think. Yeah, that's the least profound thing we're going to say today. exactly. But yeah, Jonathan Paul Miller. You and I have gotten to each other the past few years, got to work together in several different capacities, which has been amazing and awesome. So as I thought a lot about, you know, passing the pulpit, this podcast, and ⁓ even talking about, you know, bringing in people who have wisdom and experience and understanding so that they can share that wisdom so that others who maybe want to gain some wisdom and understanding can listen and ⁓ maybe hear about some things that they've thought about. I've thought about you a lot because you have, you've done quite a few different things, which I, which I think is amazing. But I also want you to talk, and I hope we could talk about this, but you know, not only are you in a creative role in a church, but then you run a creative company. And so in my mind, you're a bit of this mix of a person that I think is becoming more normative, which is like a bi-vocational tent making type pastor, minister, leader who is. I'm going to say forced, but if who is forced to, ⁓ think about creating an income outside of the ministry to help support the ministry. like to think of it as like, yeah, I've got this, I've got this side gig that helps support my ministry problem. So yeah, anyway, that's a long winded, that's a long winded, ⁓ intro on my part. Why don't you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, you know, whatever you want us to know, and then we'll get going. Yeah. So. ⁓ as you said, Matt, my name's Jonathan. I have been probably in ministry since. I think we talked about it like about probably since 25 years ago. ⁓ but my ministry didn't start necessarily as a creative. I kind of started as what we back then at my youth group called them counselors and training. CITs is what they call them. ⁓ and we went on these like, singing tours. ⁓ that was kind of like our big thing that we did every year during the summer and all the youth group, whether people could sing or not or play instruments or not, they were all in the choir. and as you know, part of being a CIT, like basically just learning how to be a servant. learning how to ⁓ serve outside of yourself and our youth director, Min, who he was great. Like shout out to Min, if you're watching this dude, like it's been a long time, but you were crucial to my faith forming at such a younger age, but also teaching me about servant leadership. ⁓ And so yeah, we went on these singing tours and I had learned guitar back in eighth grade. This is 1999. Cause I had nothing better to do. had like zero social life. And, wait, were you, who is your favorite Christian band in 19? Oh man. Well, okay. I'll tell you, wasn't audio adrenaline or skill. Why was it or why wasn't it? Uh, no. So like, Back then, so my cousin gave me, she bought my first couple of Christian CDs. So she bought a CD for my brother, she bought one for me, and then she bought a one for both of us. ⁓ And I want to say that first CD for me was Jars of Clay. ⁓ yes. ⁓ yeah. With the Flood album. ⁓ yes. How's that song go, right? If I can't sing. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, so this is the album right there. That's the album, bro. That is the album. But then that and then collectively she gave us DC talk. So that was there. So to this day, I mean, I don't listen to him as nearly as much as I used to, obviously, but like to this day, if I put that on there and I'm I know, dude, jiving, bro. I'm dreaming. He to the Toby Mack concert on Friday night here in Seoul. Nice. Yeah. And, he did a mashup at the end and you better believe someone, someone in this mashup started rapping the Jesus line, you know, he stood in the back in the middle of the, I can't remember now, but yes. he played me had a dream. Well, dude, that was, that was the disc too. All right, cool. So we're on the same page. Yes. So, 1939, 1999 starts self guitar. then I got into the worship team at my church. ⁓ our lead pastor was like, basically like very encouraging. He's pretty close with my parents. And then he was like, yeah, come on in. Now my worship team, I was raised in the Lutheran church. ⁓ so. Our worship team was, yes, it was contemporary, but it didn't have drums. Probably the best it got was like congas. Yeah. Someone's slapping the body of the acoustic. Hand drums or that that'd be even cooler. Like guitar slapping, their guitar tapping these days. That'd be dope. But no, nobody did that. But we did have congas. And then I kind of learned alongside this veteran acoustic legend guitar player. ⁓ and he still lives in Sacramento and he teaches guitar. He's been doing that his whole life. ⁓ so kind of, you know, learned musically from them, but mostly self-taught. ⁓ and so I brought those gifts into the youth group. and I accompanied the, the choir during those singing tours with my acoustic playing. There's a couple other people that did instruments as well. And then I would lead a solo here and there and that sort of thing, but That was kind of my, that was like my start, I would say to like first exposure to learning how to lead like a servant. Wow. Like servant leadership. Yeah. And that, feel like that was such a buzz word back then. Sure. And even if our youth director didn't make mention of it, it's probably because he wanted us to figure it out. Yeah. You know, like this. Ministry is not about you. It's about the people you're serving and So, yeah, and then after that like basically got into ⁓ college-age young adults ministry and for eight years this was like Beginning of I started to co-lead alongside ⁓ My friend Ashley and then I had this older couple mentoring Randall and Nancy and they ran a church neutral young adults ministry out of their house. And you're probably like, what the heck is church neutral? Tell us more about church neutral. Church neutral is just basically saying this young adults group was not affiliated with any church. Like it wasn't, it wasn't birthed out of a specific church. was meant for young adults that ⁓ didn't have a place to go in their small church because their small church didn't offer young adults ministry. Yep. So for eight years I volunteered and I co-led alongside my friend Ashley under their Randall Nancy's mentorship. And, ⁓ and that was a wild ride, but yeah, I was, I did worship there. That was kind of one of my main roles, but I did a bunch of other stuff. I even taught. I taught several times and in my tenure there. And then, ⁓ yeah, we actually even started a band, ⁓ called renew. And we, the whole concept was, it's so basic, but the whole concept was we wanted to go around to the local churches and we wanted to alleviate the worship team and the tech teams every week. Cause we actually had tech people too that would serve in the back with us. And we would only go to churches and it wasn't meant to be this big old thing, but we actually did some really cool things. I wouldn't say it was very long period of time, but that ⁓ introduction I had to a small church in Elk Grove called Living Water still is existent to this day. It's moved location since, but ⁓ we had played at a church called Living Water. ⁓ and the, the worship leader was the pastor's wife at the time. And she, ⁓ she actually got called to serve as kind of like a ⁓ creative director role for a nonprofit called courage worldwide, who they, literally rescue girls out of sex trafficking. Wow. And, ⁓ So she was called to do that, start that, which would take her away from leading worship at that small church. And then I came with my team to lead. And then basically they were just like, Hey, actually that might've happened a while before. And then I might've come back. can't remember exactly. And then they were saying, Hey, we would, strongly want to consider you as our next worship leader at this church. And I'm not even giving you the full story, but that is one like story where I felt like God had his fingerprint all over that. And he showed up in a way that was like, basically at the time I was being, I was being head hunted to start as a worship leader at a church plant. But this church had already been existent for well over a decade. It probably was more than that. This other church that I my team led worship up. And then I basically prayed for a month. I was like, God, I'm going to head in this direction of this church plant unless you reveal otherwise. he revealed otherwise. ⁓ Basically in the 11th hour, as usually he does. Because I was about to drop my decision on the church plant and say, yeah, I'm all in with you guys. And they reached the, the church, the well established church reach out to me and said, Hey, ⁓ we, we want to strongly consider you to at least interview for this position for the next worship leader at living water. that was kind of your answer to kind of lay in that quote unquote fleece out there was this church intervened. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. No, it was. It, as soon as I got that text, I was like, Oh my gosh, like God, this is you. There's no, it's probably seems small to everybody else, but it was so big to me. And no, listen, got it. I got to interject there. Cause you, yeah. Um, you know, in getting to have enough conversations like this with people, what I, what I hear over and over again is, um, is just faithful pursuits of God. You know, which we, to your point of what you just said, you know, this seems like a little thing or maybe this seems like not a big thing to others, but this big, huge God, this cosmic creator of the universe who intervenes in these little beautiful ways in our lives and kind of moves things as we faithfully pursue, you know, what we, I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, but I know for a lot of us, it's like, in my own naivety, I didn't even, know, did I fully even know what I was doing? Not really. Not really. I was just showing up serving, ⁓ you know, in your case, you started this kind of quasi ministry that helps to support other worship ministries and you know, it's just such a beautiful, it's just beautiful the way God works. So, so yeah, I don't think there's any small things with this big God that we serve, but. These stories, as much as they feel so unique, they're like beautifully, beautifully regular. Yeah. know, God so beautifully, regularly works in these really specific, tender, compassionate ways. I think as you might expect the father would, but yeah, that stands out. Yeah. Story that you're sharing, like, ⁓ I just got so, so tenderly working with you and through you. Yeah, and I, yeah, it's like unexpected, you know, even though we, talk about how. we want to be expected. Like even in worship, it's like you're having this desire to kind of pastor the congregation a little bit through musical worship. And you don't have a whole lot of moments to do that. then so through the little snippets in between a song or in the middle of an interlude or something, you can say, you know, things like that. ⁓ that helped like move the congregation along ⁓ and move them really to the reality of Christ and the Lord's sovereignty over the entire situation, over their lives, over this church service, over whatever. ⁓ And so yeah. Yeah, that's a beautiful... Yeah, I hope that... You know, in either in this conversation or future ones, but you can even talk to us more about what your experience with what you just said has been, you know, how does a worship leader, how does a worship leader navigate that worship time? I mean, that alone is like, could be a, well, I'm sure it is, but a college level course of, know, Hey, this is how we, this is how we minister through worship and all those things. But yeah. So at what point did you. I know you and I have talked many times over the years, but I know your journey ended up, bounced around, I say bounce, but you, moved around a bit, some different things. At what point would you say you felt kind of settled into like the role that you now occupy? Or maybe you're not. mean, And what is that role? Like how do you, how do you serve? Yeah. So I am the, official job title is the director of production at Redemption Gilbert. However, our worship pastor left in August and he's serving at another church now as an associate pastor. And naturally I came to our lead pastor and said, Hey, I'm willing to help in any way possible. And so I just started to ⁓ basically facilitate that worship side of things. So production and worship pretty much go hand in hand. And I was hired initially to be in that role of heading up the production department. But because I have experience with worship, I served back at that church and outside of Sacramento for five and a half years at small churches where I was at before I moved down here. And then I helped start a church plant in a rural town called Red Rocks, about 30 minutes north of Tucson. ⁓ helped I was on the launch team for that before I ended up in the, in the valley, East Valley. ⁓ but in between the church plant and where I'm at now, I was at an AV job. managing and directing at a hotel in Phoenix for four years. mean, the total between me becoming a technician and be promoted to a Navy manager to being promoted to a director was probably four to four and a half years. And then COVID hit. So basically all that to say is I got on staff at redemption Gilbert after COVID. ⁓ and then Fast forward to last August where I basically was like, lead pastor, like I'm willing to help in any way possible. I'm willing to serve. And so I just got to work. and I used all the tools in my tool belt that I knew how for worship administration, for, ⁓ communication, for scheduling teams for, I mean, all, all that kind of stuff. It's cool thinking about how that's. you're reaching back into your roots in a way. this, this, I say quasi ministry, but this kind of ministry you created to help support worship teams so they could take a break. almost, you almost went back in time to be present at the church you're in now and to step in and to help. And it's cool. It's cool thinking about how, you know, you've done that before. Yeah. I've that before, right? Like God. And this goes back to kind of what I'm saying and even identifying in your story is God so good at his job. Yes. And he knew where you were. He knew what was going on and he, you know, he filled the needs as they came up. And obviously, you ⁓ you were formed in a place that required a very servant-like heart. And then you show up and go, Hey, I'd love to help. Yep. And you know, you've, you've led and you've ministered. Isn't it amazing when someone just comes and says, Hey, like I'd love to help. What can I do? Yeah. Yeah. And I experienced that with our volunteer team at our church during that time and worship team, they came to me and said, Hey, I'm willing to help in any way possible. Wow. And really it's. Isn't it cool to lead a team like that? ⁓ dude. It's, it's a joy. It's a blessing. There's like no drama. There's no, there really isn't. There's no egos. We have such a good volunteer culture in general across the board at redemption, but then the worship department is of course near and dear to my heart and all those people are because I tell them all the time, you guys have beautiful hearts to serve you. Honestly, we don't need any of this. This is what I've been ranting on lately is like 2000 years ago, the early church didn't have these walls. They didn't have a huge building. They didn't have a huge sound system. They have lights. They have screens with pro presenter. Like basically I'm saying like we don't need any of that to worship the Lord as an audience of one, but The Lord saw it fit 2000 years later for us to have these facilities and to lead these people in the worship. And then my main point is this. God is the same God he was yesterday as he is today, as he is forever. That's never going to change. He's never going to change. dude, that's an absolute just nuclear message in the midst of a culture that's so transient. Our things are changing so fast and everything's moving so fast. And I actually think that's why this is a whole side note, but I have a, I have a feeling that that's a huge reason why so many people are coming back to faith because it's like, ⁓ this, this God, he, he, he says he does what he says he's going to do. And he is where he says he's going to be. Yeah. Okay. That's foreign. Yeah, that is a foreign concept. So yeah, I love that so much. What, ⁓ you kind of brought up volunteer culture and whatnot, like how, you know, what's, what's something that you're doing in your current role that you feel is like really going well in that culture, but like something that you've learned over the years, you know, how, how to manage volunteers, how to encourage them. Yeah. So Practically speaking, we try not to double book our volunteers for anything on the same day. like, we don't want there to be burnout. We don't want to feel like there's them. We don't want them to feel like there's any kind of burnout. ⁓ And that was instilled even before I kind of assumed that position. But ⁓ what does that basically, what does double booking on the same day. Yeah. like Sunday morning services, there's two in the morning and then we have, youth at night and some very probably small percentage of the Sunday morning worship team does serve on the youth team. ⁓ and they're, the youth teams actually moving in a direction where they want it to be completely student led, course, led by, ⁓ the guy who's actually on staff to lead it. Right. But like his heart is I want this team to be completely student led if possible. And he means by student led is high school led or, or junior higher high school led. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We'll take a junior high prodigy, but yes. Yup. Yup. Exactly. That'd be easy. ⁓ but for Sunday mornings, we don't want them to serve basically the same day unless they explicitly say, I am all in, I want to serve both. And then sometimes obviously we have rhythms that are not as like set in stone. But if we don't have a drummer that night, then let's just go to acoustic set. Like it doesn't really matter. Right? Dude. Yeah. Well, that goes back to your points of we don't need all this. Yeah, exactly. Have you ever been Have you ever been in a situation where for whatever reason the sound system just goes completely put and you just have to play acoustically and sing as loud as you can? I feel like I have, but it's been so long since that happened. I don't even remember where it was. Yeah. I'm only asking because that question is followed up with the observation that like, has it ever happened to you? And why was that like the best worship set you guys were picking up part of? Right? I about, we had this night on mission down in Nicaragua and one of these nights, right? The power's going in and out. It's just getting crazy. And we had a cajon and one guitar and a bunch of people sitting in a circle under the stars singing. I, I just never, ever, ever forget, you know, singing, I'm good father under the Central American stars. it's like, totally to your points of we don't need any of this extra stuff. But, you know, it can, can, you know, it's kind of fun. It's kind of like gravy on top of an already good thing, but. and okay. This, this story I have placed to that point, but, ⁓ like I said, I don't know if I've ever been a part of that where the sound system just cut off, ⁓ full system meltdown in the middle of worship service. Like, I don't think, I don't think that's ever happened to my, ⁓ knowledge, but they're not gonna wood, dude. I know you know, the good news would be like, ⁓ Jonathan needs to have this experience. I'd love that. Honestly, bring it on Lord. What I will say is one of the most impactful worship services that I've ever been a part of. And I've, I've shared this story multiple times. I've, I have never, I've been down to Mexico once to do missions trip. that's saying something because the youth group back in Sacramento, we did it. did it every summer for whatever reason. missed it. ⁓ the mission trip to Mexico. I think they'd built houses. This was in Tijuana. Well, when I joined the church in, in El Grove, ⁓ just outside of Sacramento as the director of music, ⁓ One year we partnered with another church and we did a building mission trip down to a Hito El Porvenir, which is about 45 minutes east of Ensenada. And you roll into this town, bro. And it is poverty central. there, there's no escape, like dirt roads, shack houses. Funny enough, a lot of these people have had dishes on their houses. don't know how they got it, but they had like dishes on their houses to for TV, that sort of thing for cable. ⁓ and the, we roll into the town at the same time they're having their main church service. Whoa. Okay. Now this church building was actually pretty well built, like put together. mean, I was surprised and they had a sound system and they had a full band up there. But the whole community was in that church. Like I promise you, it was, it was a quite a big building and there were so many people in there. And I just remember. lifting my hands and closing my eyes and listening to everybody around me and listening to them worship God in their native tongue. And I was like blown away at how big God is because we are so stuck in our ways with our Western society culture in America where It's sometimes hard to get your congregation to sing on a Sunday morning. And yet these people have nothing and getting together on a Sunday morning and church and them lifting their voices with one voice in a different tongue to the same God was one of the most incredible experiences that I've ever had. Let's go. It was incredible. And it just really spoke to me how big God is. and how he is not just the God of America. He's the God of Mexico. He's the God of Europe. He's the God of Australia. He's the God of Africa. It's the same God that we're worshiping every Sunday morning around the world together. if you can almost encourage your congregation just with that thought, that'll go a long way. Let me can I say it to you this way? Yeah people if you have nothing then you have nothing to lose. Could we agree about that? Like that makes sense. Correct. You have nothing you really have nothing to lose. What do you think it does to a person who has nothing to lose when they step into worship or they step into a relationship? I'm probably not the best person to ask about this, but because I have so much, you know, I'm so spoiled in this culture. We all are, you know, but, There's a dependence upon the Lord in these countries that don't have much or have little or have nothing at all. There's a dependence on the Lord for their daily needs, their daily bread. There's a dependence on the Lord of where their water is coming from for that day. And I feel like when your dependence upon the Lord is regarding those things that you need to live. And you get it. God gives it to you. God gives you those things. I mean, just like how scripture talks about like, ⁓ help me out here with this scripture, like, you know, look at the birds. God feeds the birds. He closed the flowers of the field. ⁓ How much more will he do that for you if he loves his creation in that way? Well, we're talking about people, people who are desperate for basic needs every day. And so when God blesses them with those things on a day-to-day basis, when it's not easy to come by, they're coming in to worship and they're going, God, thank you with all my heart. Yeah. You're I, I'm, I'm so pumped about what you're saying. Cause you're right. When you, was just thinking about that song, Jira and in that song, in that song, know, that refrain, ⁓ speaks to that passage in Matthew six that you're bringing up, you know, how much more, how much more, how much more. ⁓ so there's something to be said for. You know, how can, how hard is it to sing Lord, I need you. I need you. That's, that's a difficult, hard to sing when you really don't need anything. Yeah. You know, how can you sing about being hungry when your pantry is not only full, but your basement is full and your apocalypse bunker is full and you have food stores and you know, you have MREs and you're, you're set, but Yeah, it's super interesting. I love how you're answering that question, which is like, how can I answer that question when I have so much? Yeah. Cause you're right. Yeah, it's true. What is it, what does it feel like for you as the worship leader when you are getting to lead a people and you, can feel that they're, they're hungry and you can feel that they're sincere. Like, what's that like? ⁓ man. ⁓ don't make me cry Matt. I think my favorite part about leading worship is there's people in this congregation that I know. I know their struggles. I know they're, I'm not saying I understand it, but they've shared with me their struggles. They've, we have a guy that has ALS in the back of the church and a wheelchair. Yeah. Struggling with pain all the time yet his faith. coming into that building every morning is larger than life because I don't where I don't understand it and I don't have the same pain him coming into church and hearing his heart about the Lord to him what the Lord means to him and then I get to lead that guy in worship and I get to see him put his hands up in the back of the room. That's one example. But when I know people's pain and I know about it, I've heard it, whatever it's through the grapevine or I know it because I talk to them personally and I'm leading them in worship and I see how they are responding to God Almighty in that building. That is one of the most fulfilling, wonderful things, wonderful feelings. But the truth of that. is so encouraging to me that when it gets hard, like when in this life, Jesus says, you will have trouble. it's not, you cannot avoid it. And actually something that Pastor Jeremy said a long time ago in a sermon that I super appreciate, he said this, he goes, You're mistaken to think Christian that suffering is not coming for you. It's coming. And I've had a fair share of it in my life. It might be a little quiet. It might not be as obvious or clear to people around me, but the bottom line is when I see people who are worshiping the Lord with all they got, and I know what's going on in their heart and life, is so encouraging in my own walk with the Lord. And it is hard when you're singing. You it's like, get teared up a lot worship on stage. I just supposed to cry. You're supposed to lead in Russia. Maybe leading means crying sometimes. does sometimes. I think being vulnerable like that on stage is so relatable. I don't think it's bad at all. Like now I don't do it a lot. ⁓ but if I feel like the spirit's moving and I'm like, It hasn't really happened where I'm choking over my words so much that it's obvious. So it's like, ⁓ you got to just push through. Push through if you're crying because it's joyful. It's a happy cry. It's a great cry. But at the same time, it's like, you got to push through. leading these people, which is fine. But honestly, the Lord is OK with moments like that. Yeah. Even corporate worship like that. I love that example you're bringing up of someone who As you look out as you're leading, you know what it costs them to get there. It reminds me a lot of the parable of the woman who gave the two, ⁓ whatever they were, two meanest, two tiny little coins. She gave them tiny coins, but Jesus identifies her and says, look at her. She gave everything she had. And I think you're kind of sharing a similar heart, which is like in worship, when I know that this person is giving every last bit of what they've got. I know what it's costing them to be here. I know it's costing to raise their hands. I know it's costing to sing. That is a beautiful thing. So that's a great example. How did you, guess, thinking about worship now, but at what points, okay. So one of the things you and I do together, we work, you work a bit together in the creative space. Yeah. At what point did you start ⁓ cultivating kind of a I'm going to say side income, like, what was that journey like for you? How did you, ⁓ to use biblical language, like what, what prompted you to start making tents and when you got that prompting, like, how did that work for you? ⁓ you know, just talk us through that. So as a side note, bivocational, feel like has been my life. That's my long. All right. That's fair, dude. mean, even before things got crazy expensive. Yeah. Because I'm a nineties kid born in the eighties, raised in the nineties and life was pretty affordable back then. And then when you become an adult in the early two thousands, it was like, Oh, this is like decently affordable. And I'm, I'm a NorCal kid. I was born and raised in Sacramento and California went to college at Sac State. And I had three jobs like Mine see I was a super senior by the way it took me about five years to finish college. Hey, but they're here dude. Hey Your brother that's super seniors baby. didn't decide. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Well, I could decide but my so My issue was I was working while I was going to school and I had that I had like three jobs so you know, you're kind of been you kind of You know what it's like to have multiple jobs. Yes. On some level. Yeah. But yeah, to be bivacational, right? Like I think, I think that's actually most people's story. I think it actually, I'm more rare. So I'm, I'll stop. I'm going to go off on a tangent, but I think it's more rare to have a singular singularly full-time minister than it is to have any other type of income model for a ministry person. Yes. that's going to, that's going to become even more rare. Yes. It already is like a hundred percent every month, every year it's, it's just going to be more and more and more rare. anyway, yeah. So, um, I was, I was working three jobs when I was finishing up my last year and a half of college. So it's like, I'm used to the bivocational thing. I got my degree in digital video. So bachelor of arts in digital video. So videography and that whole process, I think to me it was like the idea of one team all working on a singular product for the entertainment of people or whatever, or entertainment of the public, but it goes beyond entertainment for me. think it's, if you can get like, If you can move people to action because of what they watched, that's the goal. Yeah. So if it pulls at their heartstrings enough to move them to action, like that's what I'd love my videos, all my videos to be able to do. They probably haven't, but, ⁓ most of them probably haven't, which is fine. ⁓ but basically I had been thinking about like, I don't know. being a business owner ever since I think I moved down to Arizona, which was 2016. And at the time when I was starting that church plant, I lived with my friend Cody and his family. had a big enough house for me to live there until I can get on my feet and get a job. Well, I got a job in AV, ⁓ which is not videography. Typically it's very much you're selling equipment, rental equipment for these meeting spaces. And then your team is executing the events and they have AV for their events, whether it's small meetings, big, bigger ballrooms, that sort of thing. That's kind of what my profession was back then. And during that time though, I was living in Red Rock, that rural town, north of Tucson. My friend Cody, who we were in a band together, by the way, I didn't even go into that, but we were in a Christian band together back in Sacramento. We were able to do a couple of really cool things. ⁓ a Christian band. Mm-hmm. He encouraged me. was like, Jonathan, goes. I'll something along the lines of like, can do this. Yeah. Like if you, he, I think it was after the AV, I got the AV job and I was still living in their house. So my commute was pretty large, but he was like, Jonathan, you could advertise your services to the people that you're servicing in the hotel and say, Hey, I offer. video packages including videography during the event and then quick turnaround editing. That literally was my first client ⁓ with videography was a client that came into the hotel and I offered it on the phone after I offered all the AV sales pitch. And then I said, but here's the thing. I got an additional offering for you. I'm a videographer. I've been cleared by my company to say that I can offer my services to you. they, and they took me up on it and What that entailed was, I don't know, it's trailing. Point of your story where it's again, like you're just kind of being faithful doing your thing. Yeah. So how long ago was that though? I'm trying to piece together in my mind. So this was, I think I've officially launched my business in early 2019. Okay. JPM productions and I think though I... did contracted with them the October prior to me starting the official business. But yeah, my first, my first client was this business that came in this company that came in to do their AV meetings. And I literally had a camera and I was filming them during the whole event. And I put it together. I put together a one and a half to two minute recap video by their Wednesday evening awards dinner. Shoot. That's quick. And I didn't charge much. Yeah. Well, you don't know what you don't know. Correct. So man, that's cool. Well, again, like the foundation for your digital journey, if I could call it that, know, back in Sacramento, I mean, you've got a degree in digital design. Yeah. Digital video. Yeah. So, then moving forward, I mean, it's not It's not uber far-fetched. mean, it's not like you were a finance bro and then you started making videos. like you, no, you, you were kind of in, was in the wheelhouse, but man, that's so cool. So you're seven years into this company now. And this is your, mean, this is your five occasional, right? You work at a church and then you also have the creative company. what's it been like kind of growing that company and you know, yeah. ⁓ Because you're, dude, you, you've wrapped your arms around. again, I actually know a lot of people like this. And I think you probably do too, because in this world, it's a small world, but yeah, you have wrapped your arms around two of the more difficult vocations, which is, ⁓ I'm going to go be a in ministry and ⁓ I'm going to be an entrepreneur. It's like, yeah, you've done both those things. Yes. ⁓ I don't, I mean, I don't know how to succinctly answer that question. I could ask more pointedly what's, what's been, what's been one of the bigger challenges you've experienced in being both a minister and trying to grow a business as a, a, well, essentially be a solopreneur functionally. Yes. You have contractors, you have different things, but yeah, what's been one of the bigger challenges you've experienced. ⁓ I mean, when you work at a church, you always have to, you can't take advantage of any system. It's not integral. It's not right in God's eyes. In other words, it's so just this past week, for example, I had asked for time off because I was running a camera at a big AV show. ⁓ yeah. And so one of the challenges is just the, the, the, Hey, I gotta use my PTO time to take care of my other business. And if I don't use the PTO time, then I have it's, I'm not going to get paid for that paycheck. I'm going to have to rely on the business now and the perfect world you want both, right? But you only have so much PTO time. So I haven't run out this year. I'm not saying that I will. don't know. ⁓ there's a cup, there's maybe a vacation or two that I'm planning on taking, ⁓ typically that's what PTO is for, but that's one of the biggest challenges is, is practically is figuring out how can I do my job well at the church? How can I show up while not being there, but also adhere to the bylaws and rules of like, Hey, do your due diligence, put in your PTO time. But in addition to that. How do you rely on a team in your absence at church while you're working on your business stuff? And that's probably the bigger challenge. Yeah, there's the ⁓ for real mic drop. Yeah. Yeah, you're out, Bill Vant. Do you think this, I'm not trying to get you in trouble with this question, but what, if you're a church and you ⁓ are going to... You know, your people are bio-vocational, you know, it's kind of like, should you have a little bit more lenient policies around, you know, the businesses that said bio-vocational people are growing and like, and you're not obviously not going to solve all the problems right now, but how, you know, how could you be more supportive of your people working both in ministry and in marketplace? Yeah. So actually our lead pastor is. very much on board with, with people growing their own business. ⁓ He's totally supportive of it. He's been supportive of it with me. I've seen him be supportive of it with others on staff. ⁓ And how that looks honestly, practically like throughout the week, I believe that our church and I'm not doing, I haven't done a ton of research, but from my understanding about probably most churches our size in the area. They have staff that are working at the church five days a week. some of the time they don't, some of the churches don't count Sunday as a work day, which is crazy to me. Sorry. might get, I got my, my get in trouble for just saying that. That's a whole nother podcast. that's a whole nother podcast. Well, you know, if other people have to volunteer their Sundays, you do too, even if you work here, it's like, okay, well, yeah, anyway, that's not how it should work, but that's neither here nor there. However, I've day work week and sometimes Sunday is not counted. Correct. So they have one day off, right? At redemption Gilbert and they, they implemented this, it's been two years or at least two to three years now, maybe is we don't, we, work Sundays. So Sunday is a work day and then we work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So they understand that traditionally the church can't pay a full on salary that allows you to live on, especially with the higher cost of living, increasing costs of living year after year. And so they, back then, a couple of years ago, they said, this is what we're going to do. You do not have to come into work on Thursday. Now, If you haven't gotten the work done and you need to come in on a flex day, then come in. Right. And I do too. I do that sometimes some work weeks. I do got to come in on Thursday, but that's me. That's me telling me that. That's me just trying to be integral and saying, I got work I still need to do. And I'm not going to wait till Sunday morning to get it done. That's just irresponsible. That's Jonathan talking to Jonathan. That's right. That's right. No, that's fair. And I encourage my team, like they can as well come in ⁓ as, you know, as long as it like fits the purview of their hours and all that kind of thing. But like, if you need work to do because you needed to take a day doing something else, like come in the next day and get stuff done because they're the reality is there are people that actually still work on Thursdays at the church. Sure. Not as many, but there's a few. Yeah. Dude, that's amazing. So in this, in that model, would you, would you think like the thought would be, know you, I know you're growing a business, but I need you to grow that business on your days off. So then if your business bleeds into a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, then you got to figure that out. Yeah, I see you got to figure that out. That seems fair. Yeah, that very fair. But I also, but I also see what you're saying of like, it'd be cool if like maybe What if I just needed a Monday and again, I had this huge gig going on. got to finish. Could I, could I trade Monday and work all day Thursday? Would that be okay? Instead of taking a PTO day? Yep. Like maybe, maybe churches swap. Yeah. Maybe we could be a little more flexible. It makes me think of like, you know, and, and many of these positions, ⁓ even in, even in the marketplace, you know, it's more, more or less like you've agreed to do X amount of work. I don't really care if you get that work done, you know, three days a week from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. and you still get it done. That seems like the way more more businesses and ministries are headed. yeah, I would agree with you. think ministry is its own unique animal. I think even this idea of like, oh no, Sunday's, that's not a work day. Your church day is not a work day. I mean, that is just ludicrous because- And I'm happy to get in trouble for saying that is ludicrous. Like you have to understand. And if you don't understand, think you have to be willing to say, I don't understand how crazy it must be, but I'm willing to trust that all of these ministers who say that it's definitely not just another volunteer day that they are, that they're not lying about that. Yep. Right. Cause even, even as a volunteer, mean, you've been a volunteer, I've been a volunteer. I've been a paid minister. You've been a paid minister. I've been on staff. You've been on staff. The one of the major differences, right? Is if I'm a volunteer and I wake up feeling kind of pretty bad. Yeah. You better believe like I can call in and go, man, I'm not coming. hundred percent. Or, yeah. Or, Hey, I tried to help. got another volunteer. Like no big deal. That is not true. If you're on staff. Nope. And well, it's just one, that's just not reality of like. how it goes and. this is actually on a Sunday. It's actually on a morning, especially on a Sunday. And as a staffer, you know what's riding on it. So it's not even like you're trying to get an out. Well, what do you do if you're feeling sick or you've got other stuff going on or, ⁓ heck, you know, your family's not doing well and you're just, you know, again, if you're a volunteer and all that happens, it's easy enough to go, ⁓ man, I'm just a volunteer. Like I'm out. But Chris, ⁓ different. And also for a staffer, it's like, if anything happens on that Sunday, you're getting called. Yeah. Anything. Even if it's outside your department, it's like, there's a, there's a flood in room six B. need everybody, everybody that can to get up there and help us figure it out. Like, yeah. Yep. Man. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. This is a good balance there for sure. ⁓ and I feel like. working at Redemption Gilbert has been very, very wonderful as far as like we have a lead pastor that recognizes the importance of maybe you need to be via vocational because the cost of living is too high for you to be singular vocational. And so he definitely has no problem with making provision for that in your life when it's needed, you know. Is that the first time in your kind of bi-vocational journey that you've experienced that level of support from the main leadership? It's hard because redemption has always been good about it. But my previous churches, I wasn't full time on, I was part time. So it was like, ⁓ you only have to work up to 20 hours a week and you get your work done, you're good. And then you have the rest of the week for whatever. So yeah. I would say yes, this kind of support for working a full-time job and having the support to say, there's flexibility there for you to build your business, to, you know, go to do this thing, go to this thing. And sometimes I travel for work. Um, it, was a lot in 2024. It hasn't been too much since then, but it's possible, especially because one of the arms of my business is operating a a camera or being a camera operator for big AV shows. And so sometimes those could be away, you know. ⁓ but the good thing is, man, I tell you the My, as I've gotten older, my philosophy has been more hands off and that's hard for me because I've traditionally been a perfectionist the majority of my life. That has, by the grace of God, perfectionism has kind of been tapered ⁓ because I don't have the brain capacity or the heart capacity to manage how that perfectionism unfolds itself on a daily basis. I just can't do it anymore. But also there's a reality. mean, our founding pastor, Tom Schrader at Redemption said basically along the lines of like, always be looking for your second, always be looking for your replacement. Now, I wouldn't say that I'm maybe intentionally looking for my specific replacement, but my guy, my production guy, I can pour into him a lot and he's young. We're talking early twenties, both the people on my team are early twenties. And so there's a balance of, Hey, I want to entrust this to you and I know you're going to do a good job and I'm here to support you. Right. And, I don't say they can't call me or anything. That's not, there's no stipulation like that. I'm just saying like, You guys can do it. You can figure it out. You can figure it out. Yeah. I'm here to support. I'm not the only one here to support you and the Lord is with you. You guys can figure it out. Right. So I think that's so healthy when it comes to finding your replacement, but also it goes beyond that. It's the quality of life of your job on a day-to-day basis. When you actually have a team that you're working with, you can. healthily rely on those team members to do it. And then the other thing is like, if they have ideas, let them have their ideas. Don't squash their ideas. Let them fail. Shocking. What? What? I I failed a lot. Yeah, that's a whole nother thing is how do you, which again, we should schedule a follow-up to. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. I'm going into other topics. No, heck no. love, this is how, this is how this conversation should be. But, but yeah, there, there could easily be a, you know, what was your experience in training up others and how, you know, what's been effective for you? What hasn't been effective for you? Cause yeah, I mean, that's just a whole nother piece of this massive puzzle, which ⁓ is so important as we have to be giving space and room for others to, to succeed and to fail. Yes. Because in our failures, often learn more than when we're successful, right? know, a hundred percent going back to the situation I brought up to you before, but like, you know, what happens when the sound system dies? What are you going to do? What are you going to do? We were in a building for a while where the fire alarm just kept getting pulled. And now there was, you know, some specific culprits to that. Blessed little babes, but. But that kept, that just kept happening and it was like, okay, well, what are we going to do? We're going to lose our minds about this. We're going to make the most of it. Like, are we going to do? So, but if you're not given opportunity, how can you ever learn? so I love what you're saying. You know, sometimes, sometimes maybe you manufacture a time where you're gone. Dive it like you need to be, but you just go, Hey guys, I'm not going to be around on for this thing. You guys need to run it. Just to see how they might do. see how like, okay, cool. What did you guys need? What'd you learn? What did, what went wrong? What went well? How could I have supported you better in the future? mean, yeah, it'd be so cool. And it's not just your staff. It's your volunteer teams too. Because they are especially, yes. Yes. Especially. And we, and thankfully we have a great group of guys and gals in the production booth that are volunteers that we rely on regularly. That's just the season of our church right now. We have to there. cannot use just staff for these things anymore. You got to use volunteers and if they're stepping up saying, Lord, I'm willing and able, then why wouldn't we use you even if you have an inkling of a gift towards that position or role? That's right. Yeah. I love what you just said. And I would say it's the season of the church. It's not just the season of your church. It's the season of the church. And yes, and we're going to have to be. more flexible. But as we kind of wrap up, want to ask you just to share, what are you most excited about as you lead worship in 2026 and grow a business? You've been following God for a long time. Like what are you just amped up about right now in your faith and in your leadership? this might be, well, this is kind of a small thing, it's, it's, sorry. We've talked about that. ⁓ like there's those small things, Jonathan. know. Go ahead. I, well, I think there's a combination of things. So we are, tapping into some church budget to assist our volunteers with better musicianship training. So, ⁓ We have, use, this isn't a paid sponsorship, but we use multitracks.com and there's, there's a way to, ⁓ give logins to your team so they can log into multi tracks. And this isn't, I mean, I'm sure most, a lot of bigger churches do this already, but we're just now doing it because before they had one MP3, they listened off of for everybody's parts, vocals, drums, electric guitar, bass. And now they have the opportunity to, ⁓ Break out and listen to the individual stems, parts of that song with a pattern or with a click and a guide and in your ear. it tells them, you know, where they're going in the song, but it gives them an idea. This is what it's going to sound like in your ear on Sunday, but this is what you can do. You can take your part out. ⁓ of the mix and you can play practice to it without hearing it, or you can have your mix forefront the say your bass player. You can really hone in on what that bass part sounds like. So on a Sunday you playing it and you can practice without it. And now you're like way better of a musician. My philosophy, my philosophy, my whole life when it's come to training, ⁓ volunteers and musicians is ⁓ why not listen to listen intently to how the pros do it. Yep. Listen to their studio albums, listen to their live albums, listen to your individual parts. If you close your eyes and just focus on the base, what does that sound like? What's the tone and, and emulate it. That's it. So, so this is an effort for us as a church to. a little bit into the development of the musicality and musicianships of our teams. So I'm like, I'm really excited for that to see how that grows the team musically over time. And hopefully it renders some good results. Dude, that's awesome. I love your heart for ministry, but in your ministerial heart and your worship heart is just such a heart for people. And I love that so much about you. That's cool. That's cool that you're, you're most excited about seeing the people around you, you know, grow and be excited and happy and fulfilled in their positions. It's awesome. Yeah. And then I think the only other thing that I would say is I'm just excited about my team, specifically the, the 20 somethings that are on my team is watching them grow over time. And, but, but almost like a, Hey, Jonathan, slow yourself down and let them fail, let them figure it out, be there for their support and not just be there for them on the job, but be there for them personally. just let that, you know, that development, that team development just organically thrive. ⁓ Seeing how they develop, one of them is a worship leader, the other is a production guy. Those are my two worlds. so, It's a great opportunity. It's not without its challenges for sure, but it's great. It's great. love it. I love it. You're doing such good work, man. It's a pleasure working with you and the different things we do. And I hope to have you on again and to talk more about, you know, maybe a new, a specific nuance of worship leading and you know, training. So we could do that. I wish you the best of luck in the things you're doing today. Thanks brother. Appreciate you. Thanks for having me on. Dude, it's a pleasure. Good luck to you, man. We'll talk soon. Sounds good. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with another pastor or ministry leader who you think might benefit from this conversation. And if you're looking for more tools and resources to help you preach and lead with confidence, be sure to check out sermoncentral.com slash podcast. Sermon Central is the largest online resource hub for pastors and ministry leaders. From illustrations to outlines to media, you'll find everything you need to preach and lead effectively. 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