Inside The Seven Mountains Mandate And The Rise Of Turning Point USA

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Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery podcast.
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The producers of this podcast would like to acknowledge with respect the Onondaga nation, firekeepers of the Hood Nishoni, the indigenous peoples of its ancestral lands of Syracuse University and Australia.
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And now, introducing your hosts, Phil Arnold and Sandy Victory.
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Welcome everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery Podcast.
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My name is Phil Arnold.
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I'm faculty in religion and also in Native American Indigenous Studies at Syracuse University and the founding director of the Scano Great Law of Peace Center at Onondaga Lake.
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And I'm Sandy Bigtree, a citizen of the Mohawk Nation at Aqua Susaney.
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I'm on the board of the Indigenous Values Initiative.
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I was on the academic collaborative for the Scano Center.
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And um, yes, welcome.
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We're so glad to have you here today, Matt.
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Yeah, great to have you, Matt.
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Um, with us today is Matthew Brody.
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I'm going to have you introduce yourself, Matt.
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Sure.
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My name is uh Matthew Bowdy.
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I'm a professor at the University of North Georgia.
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I teach in the English department.
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Uh, but my uh research focus and teaching focus is in rhetoric and composition.
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And I've written extensively about a group called Turning Point USA and have a book about them now out called The Seven Mountains Mandate, um, exposing the dangerous plan to um Christianize America and destroy democracy.
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Um happy to be here.
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Wow, that's a lot.
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Uh so talk about talk about your book, talk about turning point USA, um, because uh I think it connects directly to our work in the doctrine of discovery.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, so uh Turning Point is a massive sprawling organization, obviously founded by the late Charlie Kirk.
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Um, most people think of it as a college student organizing group.
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Uh, they have many chapters on many colleges, uh, but they also have many chapters in high schools.
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In fact, they have more high school chapters than they do college chapters, but it is not just a young person group anymore.
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Uh, really, since the pandemic, since they surged into an ideology of Christian nationalism, they have been serving all ages and all demographics, uh, mainly uh white evangelicals, but they have expanded into the seven areas or the seven mountains.
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They have an arm for turning point in each of those seven cultural institutions.
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So um it is a, when I say sprawling organization, it has a massive physical location in Arizona, uh, but also it is a nationwide uh movement that pushes uh Dominionism, uh, that pushes uh Christian supremacy, uh, and that pushes, of course, uh conservative political uh ideals along with uh anything that relates to MAGA.
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Uh its budget, uh it's hard, it's hard to figure out actually, but they're because there's so many different arms.
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But the turning point itself, turning point USA, uh has a budget about$100 million.
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Uh separate is that is one of their arms, their political arm called Turning Point Action, which probably is 50 million right now, but uh that seems like a lot of money, and they do a lot of money, a lot of things with all that money.
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That is, they have money to burn on way different things.
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So um I started writing about Turning Point uh several years ago when they first uh became popular with a thing called a professor watch list, which is their list of professors that they don't like and don't agree with, and I was put on that for writing an opinion piece um against allowing um concealed weapons on college campuses here in Georgia, which is now a law.
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Um and to be honest with you, I didn't know who the group was when they started in that list in 2016, and and it's grown uh to several hundred now, and they use it in different ways to to scare people and to watch people.
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Uh, but they're known for more than just college organizing.
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Uh, they're known for most recently, uh, they do everything um uh every year they do an event down in Arizona called Amfest or America Fest, where they train organizers and train people to knock on doors and and and and worship night.
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Uh and they obviously have any type of speaker that you can think of in terms of names, but really what they're about is you might call them a grassroots organization, even though they're funded by big donors, but they they affect a lot of different cultural institutions in our society.
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Matt, could you explain what the five um mountain mandate is?
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I'm I'm sorry, this might be.
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No, we want to get the whole encompassing uh group.
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So um the title of the book comes from the areas of turning point in which they're involved in, but that that mandate, these seven mountains, dates back to 1975.
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Um, really, so for the last 50 years, this sort of ideal of Dominionism uh has been circulated uh within charismatic Christian circles, but also beyond that.
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And the idea, of course, is that Christians would take back society, uh, take it back from anti-Christian forces, from demonic forces, from forces that were secular.
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Um they would take back society in these seven cultural institutions.
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And I always leave one off the list when I list them, so I'm gonna read them from the table of content.
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Good.
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Um the mountain of education, the mountain of government, the mountain of religion, the mountain of family, the mountain of business, the mountain of media, and the mountain of entertainment.
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So these seven areas of our culture, of course, uh have many different things involved in it.
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But what turning point in the history of the Seven Mountains mandate is not merely to produce a Christian parallel universe in all these areas, uh Christian schools, Christian movies, all those things, but but to um dethrone those that run those institutions or those isms and ideologies that control those institutions.
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So if you think about just, for example, the mountain of government, it seems pretty easy to elect people uh to federal and state office that would follow this and implement policies that would uh flow from that.
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The other ones uh you know are a bit more um you know subjective and vague in how they're doing it, but the idea, of course, is to dethrone the demonic forces, to throw them out and install um Christian businesses or Christian organizations or Christian leaders in these areas.
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And I want to end by describing it.
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Um the Christ the Seven Mountains mandate is a minority movement on purpose.
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Uh, it is not about uh convincing the majority of Americans to be Christians, it's not about evangelizing so we would have that.
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It is about inserting a minority uh to rule over the rest of us.
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And and so the idea that it it destroys democracy, I think, is based upon that, but also the idea that they would be going after uh majority rule in America by the minority.
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Um so that's really important to the Seven Mountains Mandate because they see themselves as fighting and winning God's battle.
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So every time they lose and every time they fall back, it is really just the true believers keep going.
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And we see that in a lot of different areas.
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Um the Seven Mountains Mandate's been around for about 50 years.
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It was uh these lists of seven came from Bill Bright and Campus Crusade and Loman Cunningham with youth uh with a mission.
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But over the years it's changed.
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Uh not the list itself, but the idea of how you go about winning uh this um culture has changed.
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And I think that Charlie Kirk has, as an heir to this, showed us the culture warrior part of it.
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Uh, that the culture war um is not just to be fought and to win elections, but it is about taking back our our culture um for Christianity or for evangelical Christianity.
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It's quite a big shift from personal enlightenment or salvation.
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Yes, and that's why I want to emphasize that that it is um not individual change.
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They're not going out to convince individuals to perhaps believe in the gospel or believe in their one area that they want to influence.
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It's an institutional change.
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And so they look at institutional change uh as coming before individual change.
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They often speak of reformation before revival.
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That is, they want to reform the culture and create a Christian consensus, and that might lead to revival, but they're very much interested in installing this minority uh power over these institutions.
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And as you say, that's a huge threat to democracy.
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Yeah well, I I and I can and I can appreciate your your interest in rhetoric because it always it um impressed me, I guess, that Charlie Kirk was somebody who wanted to go to universities, go to where young people would debate him, right?
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Um and um and with him with his with his murder, um what do you think are the consequences to turning point right now?
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Yeah, that's a tough one.
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Um we've seen a lot of their doubling down, certainly on Seven Mountains mandated and doubling down this faith and freedom, right kind of uh rhetoric.
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I I do think they're built to last.
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Uh I don't think that they're going to disappear anytime soon.
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And then they're built to last because they have so many areas in which they can influence the culture.
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And as if one subsides, they have all these other areas.
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Right.
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Uh, and I think that uh we're still in the in the phase of uh of um you know people doing things for Charlie, uh whether winning election, knocking on doors, starting chapters, that's still happening.
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And so I do think perhaps over the years uh that may fade, but really they've started to uh define themselves as a movement uh based upon one person.
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Um so I do think they're built to last.
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They still are getting millions of dollars in donations and they're still getting loads of interest from high school and and college students.
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If you think about it, um, you know, since they have high school and college chapters, they a person could be under the influence of turning point for eight years, like high school and college.
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What do you do then when they graduate college?
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Well, they can be inserted into a turning point church chapter.
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So they have a lot of ways in which to keep their pipeline going.
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Um so after Charlie's uh assassination, um, you know, I do think that they introduced themselves, turning point introduced themselves to a lot of new people at that memorial service, which to me was a very clear Christian nationalism memorial service.
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But it it it gave a lot of people a clear picture of what it is they they do and what Charlie stood for.
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And I think that many people were attracted to that.
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Um, so I think that they're built to last, I think they're gonna last.
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Um they're certainly gonna play a big role in the next year in terms of elections, but they do way more than that now.
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So I think that um over the years they'll continue to double down on what it is they do.
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So, I mean, uh there's so many comments and questions that I have.
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Um I think um so uh I'm reflecting on on a class I taught um called um Religion and White Supremacy last semester, and and the students were very concerned about uh about Charlie Kirk's murder.
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I mean, I must admit I didn't know who Charlie Kirk was until you know the news started covering him like crazy.
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Uh I I've I'd heard him on you know occasionally on a YouTube or something like that, but but really hadn't followed this at all.
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Excuse me.
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And um, but the students all knew who he was.
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They all knew.
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Um, and this is in a blue state, right?
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You know, this is you know, they they're very they're active in all these college campuses and everything.
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So, I mean, so obviously that was kind of a wake-up call uh for for me, uh, that the students were very concerned about this.
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And now we had a lot of conversations about what kind of Christianity are we talking about, right?
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Like it seems like even in your conversation just now, um there seems to be a kind of struggle going right now about what is Christianity, you know, what is the nature of it, what is its what is its theology?
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Um, I see definitely different politicians.
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I'm thinking of what is it, James Tellerico in in Texas, who's very openly, you know, um liberal in his theology and pushes back against the kind of Christian nationalism that we're talking about.
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There are others who espouse, of course, the MAGA sort of Christianity, but I mean the students are kind of uh because many of them are Christians, many of them are athletes and things, and they uh espouse a certain kind of Christianity, but they don't recognize this as Christianity oftentimes.
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You know what I'm saying?
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You know, what kind of uh so Christian nationalism um uh is a certain kind of form of Christianity where others are espousing a kind of different Christianity.
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And I'm I'm I ask them, well, will the real Christianity please stand up?
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You know?
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Well, coming from an indigenous perspective, I might add, you had mentioned your class, which uh which really helps them understand the dilemma we're facing now with Christian nationalism, is teaching them about the doctrines of Christian discovery.
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Because being indigenous, we are well aware that we were attacked.
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Our systems of identity were attacked from day one.
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They infiltrated our clan system, the Christians um switched us from a matrilineal um society to a patriarchy, and that was you know ruled by the husband.
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Our wives were our women were forced to marry men and take a vow of subservience.
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It was already um being viewed as a system and how to supplant a new system to control indigenous people in these lands.
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This is why we call our podcast Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery, because that doctrine um affected every aspect of who we are, affected our family, the way we we practiced rituals, how we ate, how we um related to our land, how our rivers were rerouted for industry.
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I mean, it's very complex.
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And you're talking about these seven mountains can relate to that.
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Yeah, we better start talking about uh Christianity and and these powers trying to control and dominate every aspect of our existence because it's happening right here.
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And you've articulated this.
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Yeah, I think that um turning point's very good at taking, we'll say, complex theology or high-minded theology and putting it in a bumper sticker format or putting it in in talking points that that students who um recognize Christianity but don't necessarily get beyond the the basics, um, and and then being a part of that group, saying, I agree with this.
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Um, so if you think about uh I write in the book about Genesis 1 and the verses about being in there.
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Um and the the Seven Mountains mandate, including Charlie Kirk and Turning Point, take that uh from a take care of creation or use up creation, however you want to see that, yeah, into a cultural dominion, right?
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That they they reinterpret that as not just taking care of creation, but taking care of culture.
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Um, and they add to that a particular verse uh in Jeremiah that that Charlie Kirk uh repeats a lot that he's got from other people.
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And I always forget the reference, but I think it's Jeremiah 29 when he says, um, you know, seek the prosperity of your city, and when your city prospers, you too will prosper.
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What Charlie does is replace the word city with nation.
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Uh, and this was part of the the exiles in Jeremiah was talking about the people who were living in exile.
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So it wasn't necessarily a definition of nation that they had now.
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But what Charlie does by replacing the word city with nation is making, of course, nationalism, but suggesting that the Christians whom he was speaking to, who um, you know, for a long time evangelicals were not involved in politics or don't think they should be involved, or don't mix their religion and politics in the way that he does.
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He's trying to convince them to do that.
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And by replacing that word, he is speaking directly to that, to that audience.
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And I think that that resonates very, you know, everybody remembers or or still right um recalls Bible verses because you memorize them.
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And and remembering that one thing so encapsulates what Turning Point is out set out to do, right?
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And they do that well.
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They they they they train their people well and they uh sit down and and and have these talking points um and get them to repeat them so much like Bible verses that they can go out and and talk to other people.
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I just remember uh Turning Point has had a chapter on my camp or on my school uh for on and off for several years now, and they were tabling one particular semester, and I walked out there to talk with them, um, and they had no idea who I was, which is really weird because I was on their you know, professor watch list and I was talking to um the person tabling, and and you know, I was trying to engage her in a conversation, but she she kept giving me the the the talking points and and you know, trying to move on to the next person.
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And it was just very clear that they they wanted to say these few things, and then these few things would convince a bunch of people and then they would move on, but they weren't really interested in that.
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And I say that because that's what Charlie does at these debates.
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He's very good.
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I mean, no doubt, he's very good at what he does, but I would not just classify this as some sort of debate, right?
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He frames it as prove me wrong.
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He's never proven wrong because of the way in which he limits or constrains or changes the question or jumps in.
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So um there's a reason why his fans like him, and there's a reason why there's a bunch of videos of people looking stupid, uh, because Turning Point does that with their campus events.
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Yeah, so it's very thin kind of argument style, right?
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It's uh or it's it sounds very Hebrew Bible, we'll say, or Old Testament kind of like framework.
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Um, they do love their proverbs and that short, you know, well, also that was used by the pilgrims and others to justify the taking of land and the extermination of native people.
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So yeah, it's not surprising that that becomes the kind of those become the operative Bible verses that are utilized.
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Um but I think once you start poking at this theologically, you know, once you start poking at it and looking at what is Christianity, I think that becomes a kind of way to you know um what uh deflate the whole kind of uh theological framework, you know, uh in a way.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, no, no.
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I I think that there's there's still a divide between the type of Christians that turning point attracts and we'll say reform uh evangelicals.
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They're they're not exactly one-to-one ratio, but I think the people that that that spend way more time in their Bible and in their Sunday school and and reading other people, they're not as attracted to turning point and Christian nationalism.
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But that said, they're both in the in the MAGA camp.
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So it's it's you know, they're they're getting the same feeds from Fox News and other places.
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Yeah, right.
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So it's very hard to separate the theology from the politics.
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Uh, and and I've done several presentations now, and people always ask me that question how do I speak to my MAGA Christian neighbor, how do I or my MAGA Christian family member?
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Like they just don't want to listen.
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Uh and I as a Reddit professor, I I really don't have an answer either.
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It takes multiple conversations and sometimes there's just no way around it.
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Uh, but it is a um a theology they've built up, um, and I wouldn't call it complex, but they they provide many avenues for people to get into it that are very easy and much like Bible verses being um remembered.
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Yeah.
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So I have uh again, several questions.
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Um so can you dig into uh the um the funding for us a little bit?
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I mean it's it's very shady, but I mean it's not it's not well-meaning Christian people that are backing uh turning point to$150 million, right?
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These are I mean, they currently have big donors, and that's hard to know who exactly it is because their tax records are secret, but every now and then we get some open windows.
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I mean, one of the original donors was a was a guy from Montana who gave Charlie his initial seed money, but they have some really good, uh really good, really uh high-profile backers.
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Um, you know, the co the Koch brothers are certainly that their sprawling network does that.
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Um, but I mean they just got a donation from$10 million from a woman who runs a conglomerate business that I'd never heard of to rename their building for her.
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Um but they they they do a lot to obviously to get these big donors.
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But I do want to point out when I say it's grassroots, they do have the big donors, but there are plenty of people that will donate$25 or$10 or whatever and buy a hat or buy a turning point merchandise.
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Um so they they they have both, and and and really it's very strange to see merchandise now um after Charlie Kirk's death, but they're selling merchandise now that that reflect him.
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Um they have the Freedom T-shirt that he was that was killed in, uh, they have hoodies that say, you know, um faith over tyranny uh or no tyrants hoodie.
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So there's there's a lot of things that they do to collect the individual person, but they're really good at, of course, those those big donors.
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Uh and I would say that that that big money allows him to go after the little person.
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Yeah.
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Um so it's kind of hard to know uh what you know total amount of money they're making.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:44.720
But I will say if you just think about Charlie Kirk himself, uh he was uh you know famous for for uh giving up his turning point salary.
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:50.400
He made maybe$350,000 a year from turning point itself, but he had millions of dollars in all these other places.
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:50.720
Yeah.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:52.720
Um and that's just his money, right?
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:55.039
Turning point is uh much bigger than just him.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:59.200
So it is a sprawling um economic powerhouse.
00:21:59.359 --> 00:21:59.759
It's a it's
00:22:00.319 --> 00:23:12.000
money making operation right I mean uh and and as you point out um this is part of the pros prosperity gospel kind of line you know that is uh and and I mean that that kind of theolog that way of thinking sort of spans new age world the new age world and you know uh you know I remember my grandmother sending money in you know the prosperity gospel has been around for a long time and I think they're they're all kind of feeding off that trough right no yeah so it it's it's fascinating to to you know read histories of prosperity gospel and then connect it to this institutional you know change movement um is that the prosperity gospel is about individual right if I believe enough I will be wealthy you add the the national part to that right if I become an entrepreneur if I start a business God will bless me and my nation and and the initial selling point for the Seven Mountains mandate from Bill Bright was to go into Christian businessmen usually and say you've been really successful at this business part let's use your money and your expertise for God's kingdom.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:24.079
I mean that that is the move from prosperity gospel to I don't know prosperity institutionalism or whatever but it it's clear that uh they're banking on this idea that if we're all successful God will bless us financially.
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:28.640
So the more money they get it is a sign of God's blessing and that leads to a national blessing.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:37.440
And then there's some people in the Seven Mounts maintenance that do talk about a national blessing if that if you know capitalism runs right uh we'll we'll all be blessed.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.920
Wow it's all right all around a kind of monetary framework.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:25:49.599
So you've pointed out some fissures between evangelicals for example and turning point um and I'm wondering about some I'm wondering about others you know within sort of the MAGA Christian world um I you know one of the people we talked about uh in my class was Pete Hegseth and his Dominion kind of theology uh wearing crusader uh tattoos on his body that sort of thing right yeah but you know the inspiration is the crusades of course which is is the backstory for the doctrine of discovery right that the you know the whole age of discovery is fueled by the Muslim the perceived Muslim threat right um and so um and really the failure of the crusades in the 13th century so i'm wondering I'm wondering are there can you can are can you articulate the the some of the fissures that we might be seeing in these different kinds of movements are for example the the kind of crusader um I can't remember the name the the group but you know the kind of crusading christian group that uh heg set is part of um uh uh is that distinct from the Dominion theological framework or this or the turning storm turning point people um I do think they're all kind of melded together Doug Wilson is the uh patriarch of that uh movement uh that Pete Hedseck is a part of sprawling organizations in Idaho um Doug Wilson has appeared you know with Charlie Kirk at different events they're now partnering together on a series of of schools uh so they're definitely tied in together I see I do think that that these kind of different streams of different we'll say again um organizations or um influencers like Doug Wilson and Charlie Kirk and others might come together when they're allied together and they don't seem to have any differences so they will work together.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:58.160
Yeah um I think that um what the thing that may keep them apart or or may make them sink is they they each want their own success, right?
00:25:58.240 --> 00:25:59.359
They each want their own lane.
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:01.759
It's a zero it's a zero sum game, right?
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.079
I mean they're all making their own money, right?
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:04.640
Right.
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:11.759
So yeah they're gonna partner together but turning I mean but Doug Wilson still wants his thing in Idaho and he's opened his new church in DC now.
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:18.240
So they want to work off each other's brands because that's what it is now uh and and so uh you know go much higher.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:24.799
I think also with the Dominion theology, you know, the differences in theology if if there are, don't matter.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:29.359
I mean some of them are post-millennial some of them are pre-millennial some of them are kind of in the middle or whatever.
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:29.599
Okay.
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:43.119
But they all have the same goal is to change this culture either to bring on the rapture and the persecution or to bring back Jesus in some sort of glory that they've now decided that you know we're we have the same goal so we can work together.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:53.039
I mean back in the 70s and 80s they didn't often come together because of that distinct difference um but the the end time seems to or differences have seemed to have faded.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:27:03.599
So whatever you think of Doug Wilson he is in line with turning point um as far as he goes yeah do you need help catching up on today's topic or do you want to learn more about the resources mentioned?
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:10.319
If so please check our website at podcast dotdoctrineofdiscovery dot org for more information.
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:15.599
And if you like this episode review it on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:26.240
And now back to the conversation I don't know how quite how to ask this question since you're on the list and we know others that are on the list.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:54.079
Does it worry you um it didn't when it came out it influenced your life um it didn't when it came out because nobody knew who they were um and and writing the book I you know I've went back and looked at that they they've uh kept an extensive profile on me and I was not aware of that until I did a podcast in Arizona uh with a group and they they had mentioned to me that Turning Point had signed up for the podcast.
00:27:54.240 --> 00:28:49.519
They could tell because of the email addresses and I was like that's odd why are they carrying what I say in a podcast so they have updated their website or my profile uh you know and and I think the last update was in 2024 but they constantly add things that I say um and you know it did it didn't bother me before um I will say obviously with the killing and assassination of Charlie Kirk um you know I did think for a minute about the attention that would come and a lot did uh it certainly faded um since then but I think the the watch list um is important to Turning Point but because of all the areas that they've now gone into it's become a minor thing to them that they still do and have partners that do these viral videos of professors doing stuff and saying stuff in class or in assignments they don't like and they still do that but um the the watch list has become less important to them because of have all these other things.
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:55.839
Now that doesn't mean of course they aren't doing things like it they have a school board watch list now which is school boards and school board members they don't like.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:56.240
Right.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:08.319
So they they are doing things that you know about lists and and watching but particularly I have not had any um other than some terrible emails have not had any uh negative impact.
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:17.039
Now that said I'm a a white dude in Georgia who is teaches at a school that very people have ever heard of um but I have heard stories of other people having it much worse.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:34.160
And especially if you get targeted by a group like Libs of TikTok their partner online which our school was uh back in October um the the hurricane can last probably a week of of just terrible things that you get and you might need to take down your profile and things like that.
00:29:34.240 --> 00:30:22.240
So there's always a a fear of that um but I think that um for whatever reason turning point is less in the professor watch list and oddly while I did say that they they've updated their profile on me they have not targeted me since the book came out which is really strange because that is strange it it it has gotten a lot of attention obviously because of Charlie Kirk's death uh and that could be busy obviously with other things but my family was very concerned about that when it first happened and I think that they they have ignored me mainly because I mean the the book is so I don't know right on right there's nothing to disagree with or there's no errors in it right there it would take it would take a lot to to debunk it and they're not really into doing that much that much work.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:31:03.519
Wow so uh yeah Adam our producer just reminded me that Chandra Mahante our friend and colleague here at Syracuse University is one of the people on the list and she gets harassed on a regular basis um you know you know why colleges and universities why you know why is that particularly or seen as particularly uh threatening to Turning Point's um framework um and and where is it how is it expressing itself or how has it um affected um academics working at other colleges and universities?
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.119
Um Turning Point's not the first to come up with a list of professors they hate.
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:24.559
Obviously they base it upon a guy named David Horowitz's list of the 100 worst professors in America that came out in early 2000s and David Horowitz still runs his organization in Colorado and he's the person that introduced Charlie to a lot of different people higher education being a target is not new.
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:34.559
No but I think what turning point obviously the social media has helped turning point spread its thing but I think there are two reasons why turning point attacks colleges universities.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:48.559
One um it it's easy to do not so much because we're terrible but because this idea of free speech and being an open campus uh and inviting people in and you could say anything you want here there's opportunities for them to do that.
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:53.680
And when I say Charlie Kirk is an advocate for free speech what I mean is he he uses free speech.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.079
I don't think he's interested in everybody having free speech.
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.000
So uh we're a we're a soft target in that regard.
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:35.599
But I also think that um there is a bigger movement obviously outside of turning point against um higher education uh because of the ways in which it constantly uh challenges our thinking in any type of class you should that should happen right you're not just given new information but information you didn't know but also you're asking to rethink conceptually things that you may uh hold dear and I think that the attacks upon that really have helped turning point because they're not just saying it's a liberal indoctrination camp they're not just saying you should defund them.
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:39.920
They're saying that they're they're they're a a an evil kind of cancer.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.319
Charlie's famous phrase is you know whatever happens on college campuses does not stay there.
00:32:44.400 --> 00:33:08.799
So they see this as a as a as a center of a spreading um you know disease uh and that just has has just turned up the rhetoric against college university you can say our tuition is too high you can say I don't get a great job you can say I waste my time on classes I don't care about those are all things we could debate but I I can't I can't come back with to somebody who thinks that this is a spreading disease of evil.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.720
It's just really hard to convince someone of that.
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:44.400
So how that trickles down to students of course they might not really believe that but they then say well why am I why am I bothering with your class you know all I want is my classes uh so you can see that no matter how much they raise a rhetoric it always has an impact down uh the pipeline as you mentioned there are plenty of students who are supporters of Charlie Kirk um and sometimes they do take it themselves right to videotape people or to uh turn in people's assignments to different websites so right they are trained to um look for the things they want to find.
00:33:44.559 --> 00:35:38.960
Yeah yeah and uh and and you know it's uh I I hadn't intended to talk about this but it is an assault or a different kind of an assault on the humanities right I mean um it's uh humanities is under under the gun certainly at our university and other universities um for a variety of reasons but this is another a kind of another assault in some ways no yeah yeah so these these uh Charlie is famous for saying that the you know the the humanities are a waste of time in terms of of classes and yet he has spent he spent most of his 20s uh reading you know great books that were part of humanities education right uh so it's really fascinating to see that it really you you need a good teacher when you read books because if you read them with just you you'll come out with you at the end and so password really well said wow well um so so how do you uh how do you think that we should push back against um this kind of cultural um you know these these cultural assaults in some ways I mean um for lovers of democracy um can you summarize what you think uh we ought to be doing you know as a society as academics as uh concerned citizens you know I was writing the book and it's it's a you know pretty negative portrayal of this absolutely plan to christianize America it's a wake up it's a wake up right yeah yeah yeah and I was like this is this is bad I've got to provide some sort of positive hope you know so at the end of each chapter I try to do a couple paragraphs on like what is it supposed to look like in these areas if we were to live in a healthy democracy.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:49.119
I'm certainly not an expert in political science I'm just a regular voter like anybody else and trying to imagine what these things would look like if if you did not have these attacks.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:56.000
And I think that the answer to a minority movement is it has to be a majority movement.
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:04.719
What that majority movement entails I think has to be around the ideals that um would bring us all together.
00:36:05.039 --> 00:37:20.639
And those are democratic ideals and free speech and freedom of religion and and uh education um those things do resonate with still a lot of people that said um you know I think that because they're going after institutions uh and not just individuals and academic freedom is a great example academic freedom used to be that that the government would target an individual professor would fire them because they didn't like what they wrote or said right now academic freedom is being fought at the institutional level because you have state legislators passing laws that are and policies by university systems that are that are that are affect masses amount of people not the individual professor like somebody asked has your university pushed back against your writing well no because they don't really care right that they you know one person it does not disrupt their institutional uh power and I think that throughout the history we've seen these institutional changes happen over time sometimes more violent than others but the idea was they always go after the institutions and the institutions were changed perhaps one by one or over the series of time but I think that the the answer to that we is we it is sadly though a long game back to the institutions.
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.280
This is not going to be a quick fix.
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:32.159
If you think about again when Donald Trump leaves the political scene, when perhaps MAGA leaves the scene, Turning Point is setting itself up to be the inheritor of that.
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:33.920
They're not going away anytime soon.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:37.519
So that means all the people that they have affected are not going away anytime soon.
00:37:37.679 --> 00:38:22.880
So yes you have to outvote them uh to become a majority but you also have to think about institutionally um how you can protect institutions from these ideological takeovers um and that requires um doing uh or not doing what they're doing right it requires not being anti-democratic it means selling the messy democracy discussions as well um but also it means that promoting the idea of institutions promoting the the good of institutions not just the government uh but all these other institutions as being not just good for the common society we think about education being for the common good or for the public good that hasn't we'll say caught on a lot because it seems vague to many people it doesn't affect them.
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:31.920
So you need really to have people part of a movement that they can identify with which is what Turning Point's doing and have that movement based upon ideals that we all share.
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:37.199
That is a much longer book that I don't have time to write or an expertise in.
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:42.880
But I would say that the if they're going after institutions, your answer has to be institutional.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:39:34.079
Yeah interesting yeah and you know ironically so particularly the uh you know academic study of religion which I'm committed to has been under assault for a variety of reasons um uh and we could talk about that but um but we have a critical analysis of the phenomenon of religion right um it's not advocating for a particular religion or whatever but but um ironically what's happening today in the country is making our classes much more popular right um people are really wondering what is going on and I tell my students I've told them for 30 years I've said if you don't know about religion you just don't know what's going on in the country you don't know what's going on in the world.
00:39:34.239 --> 00:43:09.280
Yeah so it you know just a basic informational level of or you know um a basic knowledge of religion uh helps to helps you to interpret what's going on so again ironically it's it's it's uh sort of helping make the case that for the humanities in some way certainly for the academic study of religion um and that's what we find in um you know our work in the doctrine of discovery you know I mean it's this you know many you know tentacled you know uh phenomenon right um uh we talk to lawyers we talk to environmentalists we've talked to a variety of uh you know indigenous activists uh from around the world um it's it's something that is um that has you know helped students and and and ourselves really to to um uh give us a framework on how we can understand what's happening you know you know yeah and I think um um and and likewise I mean if if the more light you shed on these kinds of phenomena you know the better off we are particularly how religion was used as a weapon in in coming into this continent it was so incredibly violent and it was the means by which it justified uh the taking of native lands, the rerouting of waters you know the the massacre of of indigenous peoples um it's been kind of glossed over you know and then we're taught you know the country's all about freedom and freedom of religion and all of this stuff but meanwhile this is the backdrop of what's really happening right and um they didn't really when they came into this continent they may have come most may have come thinking they're going to build a Christian country but they saw these um civilizations that were living in peace and that there was a different way of relating to the world around them and so real effort was to squash those cultures and silence them and yet a lot of this message still got out I mean there were indigenous speakers in the early 17th century you know um going to or late six seventeenth century going to Europe and speaking about what true freedom is about what what equality is really about you know and and there are books being written right now that are attributing um these indigenous orders having inspired the enlightenment thinkers in France during that period because these speakers were known written about for centuries and they preceded all the major you know enlightenment writers of the time so and well the whole and impacted the French revolution you know so the irony here is that that uh you know the Hodnoshawnee we're in the middle of we're in the heartland of the Hodanoshuni or the Iroquois and they have been uh directly well they've been thanked uh by the United States right in 1987 as as as having an impact on the development of Western democracy.
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:58.639
So you know the the it's ironic that on the one hand these uh these kind of christian efforts to demolish democracy uh you know on one hand also um benefit from these indigenous uh roots right and different way of looking at the world the whole notion of christianity it's it's all uh built around this dichotomy of good over evil it's war war is at the very basis of this theology right and if it's indeed an extension of the Roman Empire which many scholars do believe um it was used by the Romans then you know it explains warfare and domination in the world and how the Bible was written.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:09.599
So Yeah, you humanity is um last uh last fall I wrote a blog post as sort of a a call to to put democracy on the syllabus.
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:20.880
And I and I meant didn't just mean people that teach in political science or teach in rhetoric that every discipline should try to put democracy on the syllabus, you know, because obviously the election was coming up and we didn't want one person to win.
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:21.199
Right.
00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:29.679
Um and I think that um with the 250th anniversary of America coming up, we've already seen how the Trump administration is is telling our history.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:30.079
Right.
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:35.199
Um, we also need to have that type of thing again, um, campus-wide.
00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:43.119
It can't just be the people in your area or my area, uh, because honestly, very few people take our classes, even though they're popular.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:51.440
Um, but also I think that we we need to convince other people that that their work in one area matters to democracy.
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:52.400
It is not a separate.
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.760
I get a lot of professors who live kind of separate lives there, right?
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.519
That they can just live in their academic silo and not affect everything else.
00:44:59.679 --> 00:44:59.920
Right.
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.320
Um, but you know, that's a that's a tough road.
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:02.800
Yeah.
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:08.159
So I'm gonna get I'm gonna let Adam jump in here with a question or a comment.
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:11.840
Um, thank you so much.
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:29.280
So Phil, so I want um Phil and Sandy to talk about the work that they've been doing in the UK um around the 250th there, and how that's so different um than what's happening here in the US.
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:35.360
And then I kind of want to shift directions and um have a follow-up question.
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:50.639
Yeah, no, so so in uh in May of this year, uh there's going to be an exhibit at the uh London National Archives uh on called Revolution 250, the making of the USA.
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:54.000
Um it sounds rather benign.
00:45:54.079 --> 00:46:02.559
It's you know, um they have millions of documents in their National Archive, thousands of you know, over a thousand years of of history.
00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:06.960
But, you know, they wanted to do an exhibit on on this.
00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:23.519
We've befriended um people there over the last few years, and we were interviewed on a you know, kind of an extensive uh over a about three and a half hours to to talk about the Hood and Shoney influence on Western democracy.
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:39.199
So, you know, the British who have a very different view of Revolution 250, you know, um are um they're very interested in these indigenous roots, uh, as were the French before the French Revolution and all that.
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:52.079
So so um so democracy we we need, and this is just you know kind of celebrating what you just mentioned, Matthew, is that um we need to be discussing democracy.
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:54.719
We need to be discussing its origins.
00:46:54.880 --> 00:47:01.519
It's not just the Greeks or you know, or you know, the uh you know the British.
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:08.320
Uh um and it's it's um it's a many many faceted thing.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:18.000
Uh and and one of the failings, I think, in education has been civics, you know, the disappearance of civics.
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:24.000
I got it in high school, you know, um, but I don't think we teach it, you know, anymore.
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:30.239
So Adam but a big part is the recording of history.
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:30.559
Yeah.
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:34.960
Uh the British were telling one story of this interaction with the Hood and Shoney.
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:38.480
We were all being taught like that same narrative.
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:52.400
And yet, when you look at the primary texts, they're very conflicting because the history they're writing are the native people they manipulated through Christianity to pose as being war chiefs and whatnot.
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:57.119
Those were titles assigned to these individuals by the British.
00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:07.440
And and then you have the peacemakers, the Hood and Ashoni, and you have those documents and those accounts of their nationhood of being peacemakers.
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:15.440
And and they frankly in England could not interpret these conflicting primary sources, they didn't know where to even begin.
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:24.960
So we were able to help them with that to show it was your manipulating in history, you know, these forces and recording this history.
00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:38.559
And and then some of our researchers are Irish and they'd go, Wow, they did that to the Irish, they did that to us, and so it's clarifying some of the histories now, you know, in the the empire there.
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:42.239
So um, I think this is going to crack open a lot.
00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:45.440
Of course, nothing like that is happening here in the US.
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.760
So, you know, they they they're interested, but nobody here is.
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:52.800
Thank you for that, y'all.
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:53.360
I agree.
00:48:53.599 --> 00:49:06.559
This is such an important piece in the at the 250th anniversary of America, I feel both like not wanting to throw a party and more a funeral, but also not wanting to throw the funeral.
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:14.079
Um and so shifting directions, Matt, I was wondering, can you help us understand?
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:21.760
One, is there a difference between Dominion theology and the Seven Mountain Mandate?
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:36.480
And two, can you kind of connect Seven Mountain and Dominion to the larger sort of history of Christendom that we see unfolding in Europe and the US?
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:41.760
Um, I don't see a difference between Dominion theology and Seven Mountains Mandate.
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:58.639
Um, I think that uh Dominionism is a term made up by by academics, a pretty good one, but um, but at the same time, it was trying to describe this idea that they were taking back dominion and what involved in that theology, I think translates very directly into the Seven Mountains Mandate.
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:11.519
Um, if you think of theology again as a conceptual framework, the Seven Mountains Mandate is a strategy for you know applying that, much like I call Seven Mountains a strategy for Christian nationalism, again, a framework for doing that.
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:13.599
So I don't see a difference between the two.
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:29.119
Um, I do think, of course, that uh Western civilization plays a key role in the Seven Mountains mandate because you are not just trying to save America, you're also trying to save Western civilization, which means, of course, that it needs saving or that it's somehow died.
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:34.559
And they often point to the secularization of Europe, and they don't want that to happen in America.
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:47.599
And the idea of saving Western civilization, which is something Charlie Kirk mentions a lot, goes back further, you know, into the 70s, I think, when when people were talking about the roles of education, primarily primary and secondary education, and how that was changing.
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:55.440
To them, it was losing their Christian influence and saying the pledge every day to a more secularized influence.
00:50:55.519 --> 00:50:58.960
I remember exactly reading a chapter in Bill Bright's book, then the chapter about education.
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:13.440
He tried to trace this secularization back to some British guy, I forget his name, that came over to America to give education, and somebody that taught um Horace Mann, I forget the guy that taught him, but the idea was that there was this line they could they could trace back.
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:19.440
And at some point, you know, Christendom lost uh its power, its influence, and we need to get that back.
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:26.400
Now, when that was in America, again, they came up with this list in 1975 because they were responding to things that happened in the 60s.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:37.199
Um, but at the same time, this responding to keeps going back and back until I don't know, I don't know when it started because they believe that America was founded as a Christian nation.
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:39.039
Um, so it didn't start there.
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:53.039
So at some point, Western civilization was lost, and we need to return to uh its origins, but also we need to reshape its future so it matches something that can't be lost again.
00:51:53.199 --> 00:52:01.440
And so the person who studies rhetoric from ancient Greece and ancient Rome, um, what they're describing as Western civilization is not the same thing that I would do.
00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:05.599
So it's always about these myths, as you point out, the manipulation of history.
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:16.480
So it's it's kind of odd to see the same thing repeated against again every decade or every hundred years, but at the same time, uh, when it's repeated, it's changed slightly.
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:23.119
So Charlie Kirk's version of the Seven Mountains mandate is different than Bill Bright, even though you can draw a line back to it.
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:25.679
Thank you so much.
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:38.320
Um, that really excites me because as a historian of religion who trained with Phil and learned so much from Sandy, myths are so fascinating to history of the world, and they're so important to history of religions.
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:40.639
And I really appreciate what you just highlighted.
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:59.119
That this whole make America Great Again, this whole Seven Mountains mandate, is mythic because there's no point that they want to return to, and if you keep pushing, it can be anywhere from the world being created, dinosaurs being put here to test us, Genesis 128, the 1970s.
00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:02.000
It becomes a dinosaurs put here to test us.
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:03.519
I haven't heard that one before.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:13.280
I grew up um attending um a rather fundamentalist school for high school, not of my own choosing.
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:15.679
Um, and that was one of the ones we got there.
00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:30.159
Uh so I want Phil to kind of chime in about how these social how these mythic etologies function socially, like what people get out of it.
00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:31.039
Yeah.
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:35.199
Um yeah.
00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:42.400
So um I think I think we're probably we could probably wrap it up there, uh Adam.
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:47.679
Um I'd just like for you to to once again plug your book, Matthew.
00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:48.239
Sure.
00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:52.320
Um uh and um tell us a little more about it.
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.559
I I understand it's doing very well.
00:53:54.800 --> 00:54:00.320
So um so why don't you just uh plug it once more and then we'll be out.
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:01.039
Sure.
00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:06.800
Uh the Seven Mountains Mandate is published by Westminster John Express, which I would be uh disheartened not to mention that.
00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:11.199
Uh they took me on with having no previous um public writing.
00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:14.400
Um and the book is about the Seven Mountains Mandate.
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:24.480
Charlie Kirk plays a central role, and I will say that um, you know, in writing the book, we wanted to make Charlie Kirk a central character because he is, but also I wanted to make the mandate a central character.
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:30.000
So I tell the story of how we got from the list to a mandate to Charlie Kirk, and that comes across in in every chapter.
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:32.800
There's a chapter on each of the uh mountains.
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:45.519
Um and I say that um, you know, it was published or uh published with a religious publisher, and I think that they they told me when they got the proposal, even they had never heard of the Seven Mountains, and they're a Presbyterian PC USA publisher.
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:48.079
So you can see it's not as well known as people think.
00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:51.760
Um, but this idea of Christian nationalism, I think, is getting more attention.
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:57.519
Um, and yes, uh it certainly has sold lots of copies, um, and many people are discovering it.
00:54:57.599 --> 00:55:01.599
But I will say that um they've they've done a great job, Westminster as as marketing.
00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:04.960
I've done several podcasts and they're selling it at a bookseller's convention.
00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:10.639
Um, and so it's interesting to always ask people had they ever heard of Charlie Kirk before his death?
00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:15.840
And I always give maybe a third of the room, maybe a quarter of the room to say raise their hand and yes.
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:19.599
So I do think he's still an unknown quantity um out there.
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:23.920
And I think this book, uh, if you want more information about him, it is a good thing to go to.
00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:27.039
Matt, do you have a discount code you could offer?
00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:28.719
Uh I did.
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:42.400
I think that's expired now because it was just for the first uh first month of it being on there, but actually uh um it is discounted on Amazon right now like three or four dollars from the list price uh of 25.
00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:52.079
And the um Amazon uh e-reader is like 16, and in March the audiobook is coming out if you guys want to wait on that.
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:54.719
Well, congratulations.
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:59.360
It's really uh very important uh intervention, I'll say, yeah.
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:02.000
Uh in in the religion world today.
00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:10.400
Um, whether, and I know you don't come from our world, but you know that it it's a very important um uh contribution.
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:16.400
So thank you, Matthew Brody, and um I appreciate your willingness to be on our podcast.
00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:17.199
Yes, sure.
00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:18.320
Happy to be here.
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:23.760
The producers of this podcast are Adam DJ Brett and Jordan Long Colonel.
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:28.719
Our intro and outro is Social Dancing Music by Oryx Edwards and Rufus Cook.
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:37.440
This podcast is funded in collaboration with the Henry Lee Foundation, Syracuse University, and Hendrix Capital, and the Indigenous Values Initiative.
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:42.480
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