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Welcome back to Long-Distance
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Worklife, where we help you lead, work
and thrive in remote and hybrid teams.
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I'm Marisa Eikenberry,
a fellow remote worker.
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And joining me is my co-host
and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel.
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That would be me. Hi.
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How are you? I'm great.
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How are you?
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I'm great.
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It feels like a million years
since we have recorded one of these.
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So this could be fun.
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Or it could be a car wreck.
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This is the joy of recording live, right?
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Yeah.
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I was going to say,
I mean, for those that are now scared,
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if you're first time
listeners, do not shut this off,
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but that being said,
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today we're actually going to talk
about acceptable meeting behaviors.
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So we actually got this survey
sent to us by our boss, Kevin.
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And so it's a 2023 YouGov survey
that was done of
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just different, acceptable or unacceptable
leading behaviors.
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And they start off
with just behaviors in general.
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And then we actually go
into generational stuff.
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But now just to clarify,
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for the mere mortals out there
who can't read our minds,
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YouGov is
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essentially this is a survey,
internal survey of U.S.
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federal workers in all the branches,
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all the divisions, all the stuff right.
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Now, lots and lots of people.
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Context. Yeah, exactly.
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And one of the first things that they did
talk about,
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which we've talked about before, you know,
we mentioned remote work, is that
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while we would like to think
that this is a majority of the population,
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the majority of the population
is not remote working.
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But they talked about 32% of Americans
participate
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in virtual meetings
for work and 37% for like personal calls.
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So so that's where we're going with this.
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But Wayne, were there any that kind of
stuck out to you from this first,
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you know, acceptable,
not acceptable, graphic.
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And for those of you that are watching,
I'm going to have this up on the screen.
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Yeah,
I think if we look at the general numbers,
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we're not getting generational
or granular on this, just in general.
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Certain things make sense, right?
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Having a TV on in the background,
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smoking, although that's interesting.
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Okay.
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So why is it interesting to you?
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Well, it says a whole lot more about
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where society is gone
than where the meetings have gone.
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Because if we think about why
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smoking was banned in the workplace,
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second hand smoke
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being rude and blowing
smoke in somebody's face,
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all of that good stuff.
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A lot of people take remote meetings
in the privacy
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of their own home or a hotel room,
wherever they happen to be.
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And secondhand smoke is not an issue.
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You cannot catch secondhand smoke.
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Right through.
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Zoom. That is true.
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So I think that says more about the fact
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that people just don't want anybody
smoking at all.
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Whether or not it's rude on a meeting.
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Now, some of that is
I come from the generation
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where I can remember
people smoking in meetings.
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Yeah, See that? I can't remember.
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I was old enough to still remember
smoking in restaurants
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and there being a section for both.
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And of course, I live in Las Vegas
where you can still do that.
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All right.
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Well,
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and then for our audio listeners,
so for smoking,
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they said, you know, 75% of those surveyed
said it's not acceptable in any meeting,
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while 12% said it's acceptable
in informal meetings.
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And five said it's,
5% said it's acceptable in any meeting.
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Yeah.
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One of the interesting things
I found about this report
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is that there is an increasing,
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especially among people
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under older than dirt.
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There is an increasing gap
between what it's
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okay to do in an informal meeting,
you know teammates a teammate
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than in a formal meeting
where you're doing a sales presentation
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or you have a customer on the line
or whatever that works out to.
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I think that is interesting.
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yeah, for sure.
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And where you find that a lot is,
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is it
okay to have a child or a pet in your lap?
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Right.
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And interestingly, more people
find it acceptable
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to have a pet in your lap
than a kid in your lap,
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which in a strange way makes sense.
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It really does.
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But, you know, I can remember
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when remote work started to catch on.
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If you wanted to know whether or not
somebody worked remotely on a regular
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basis or not, you'd be on a conference
call and a dog would bark.
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And the people who worked
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remotely
would say, say hi to Bailey for me.
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And the people who didn't work
remotely were like,
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Is that a dog?
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Like they'd never heard a dog before?
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Right.
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And so I think that gap between
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formal and informal,
if I'm just talking to you,
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you know, I don't care.
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Right, Right, Exactly.
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Like Max Barks. And it's fine.
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Yeah.
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Max barks Or he jumps in my lap
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and I hold him up and go
say hi to Auntie Marisa.
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Right, right. Right.
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Yeah.
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My husband drops in behind me,
and I'm just like, my God, Go away.
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And I'm going, Hi, Parker.
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Right.
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Say hi to Uncle Ray.
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So I think some of those
are really interesting
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where you start to see some gaps.
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Is. Is it okay to eat?
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Right? Right. Is it okay to drink?
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There is a percentage of humans
and I'm looking for it.
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And I'm wondering
who these evil people are. 3%.
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No, it's not 3%.
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It's.
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I'm looking for
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drinking and nonalcoholic drinks.
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Yeah.
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So 17%
say it's not acceptable in any medium.
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53% say it's acceptable in any meeting.
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And 22 say only informal meetings.
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Yeah.
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The Geneva Convention says
people are allowed hydration.
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Right.
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Like I remember looking at
this would be like,
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I don't think I have ever been
bothered by somebody taking a drink ever.
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I can understand
not wanting to be on a meeting
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and it's not a happy hour and like,
they're clearly drinking a beer.
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Like, that's a problem.
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I get that.
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But like, I have a soda with me
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all the time
and I drink it in meetings all the time.
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And I never thought about it
being a problem until I saw that.
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Well, until we hold the intervention.
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Well, you know,
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it could be worse.
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So, you know, if we look at it, it's
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not really surprising what people think
is acceptable and unacceptable.
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I suppose.
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It gets interesting around
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formal and informal meetings.
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Right.
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And I have been on informal meetings.
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And again, everything is context, right?
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Right. I belong to a writer's group.
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We used to regularly have cocktails
during our meetings.
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Yeah.
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If we're talking about it, work.
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I have had meetings with people overseas
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who, you know, are taking the meeting
out of the kindness of their heart.
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But it's after dinner
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and they have a glass of wine
or a beer with them as we're having it.
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And it doesn't bother me. Right.
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First of all, they're the customer.
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What am I going to say? Okay.
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But also, it's an informal discussion.
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And I want
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I want a heightened level of informality
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because I think you communicate
better that way.
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Right. Yeah.
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I mean, I've been on some, you know,
virtual happy hour stuff with sorority
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sorority meetings or webinars or whatever.
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And it's just like, yeah, like it's 9:00.
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If I have a cocktail, it's fine.
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If they have a cocktail, it's fine.
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Now, one of the ones
which is very personal to me because and
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people who regularly view
this don't know this,
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but I wear hats a lot.
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I thought about you when I saw the.
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Different types of hats,
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but you'll notice that nobody on this
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podcast has ever seen me wearing a hat
because I differentiate
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between work
Wayne and Wayne in the rest of my life.
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However, the one time I
do wear a hat on a work call
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is because I live on the West Coast.
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My day
starts way earlier than everybody else's.
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And if somebody's
not necessarily a client,
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but if somebody on our team
or somebody like that
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calls a meeting for 9:00 Eastern
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time, there is a pretty good chance
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I am not going to be showered
and presentable.
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Right.
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And so I can throw on a shirt
that's not a big deal,
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but all off and put on a baseball cap
just so I don't look like Albert Einstein.
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Well, I thought it was interesting, too,
when I was seeing that, because, you know,
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we had a team member
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that she wore hats frequently
and that was just part of her style.
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That was just how she was.
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And I was never bothered by it.
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When I would see out,
it was usually a wow, like that.
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That's cool hat.
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I hadn't seen or wear that one before
or something like that.
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So I definitely found it interesting
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it being on this because it is an issue.
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Most people who wear hats do it as a cheap
attempt at branding and difference.
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Yeah, it's just myself included. Right.
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So that
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particular
person that was part of her wacky.
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Yeah, That was her.
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Laid back style and it was great.
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One of the things that is important,
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if you're going to do that, though,
and baseball caps are a problem for this,
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is they affect the lighting over your eyes
and very often
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make it hard for people to see your eyes.
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And that can be a problem.
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Right. And I can totally see that right.
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Now where things get ugly
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as we look at that
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is generationally. Yes.
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What people find acceptable
and what they don't.
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I used to think I was pretty cool.
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And and I do
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differentiate between formal
and informal meetings.
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Right.
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And since extremely formal
has never been my style.
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I'm fairly relaxed
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about some things,
sometimes more than I should be.
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And I am a child of my generation.
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Right. Okay, So give us an example.
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I'm 62 years old, right?
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I'm looking
at where there's a huge difference
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in what's acceptable
and what's unacceptable.
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You know, walking around the room
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during the meeting.
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Right.
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There is no reason not to do that.
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I'm when I'm in the conference room,
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I very often because my joints
ache and stuff and I have
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the attention span of an Irish setter,
so I have to burn off energy.
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So I'll stand and move
to the back of the room. Right.
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Stand against the back wall or something
while the meeting is going on.
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I tend not to do that on virtual meetings,
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but I think that's largely a function
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of my camera setup.
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Right.
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I'm on camera most of the time.
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If it's a telephone call, I'll walk down.
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There are
there are ruts in our carpet from where
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I pace and walk
during a comp during a telephone call.
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Right.
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But generally
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speaking, I'm a little more particularly
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if it's a camera meeting,
I'm a little more traditional.
254
00:12:56,509 --> 00:12:56,976
Like now.
255
00:12:56,976 --> 00:12:59,111
I'll sit there like a good boy and do it.
256
00:12:59,111 --> 00:13:00,312
Yeah, I do it too.
257
00:13:00,312 --> 00:13:03,349
And I have been on meetings
258
00:13:03,349 --> 00:13:06,752
or even streams that I watch
where like, people have gotten up.
259
00:13:06,752 --> 00:13:09,522
And I think for me
the issue is less that they've gotten up.
260
00:13:09,522 --> 00:13:12,525
It's that their mic is set up for that.
261
00:13:12,558 --> 00:13:15,261
And so now they're talking,
I can't hear you.
262
00:13:15,261 --> 00:13:16,095
You know what's worse?
263
00:13:16,095 --> 00:13:20,766
I just realized
when I want to throttle the person.
264
00:13:20,833 --> 00:13:21,934
Okay.
265
00:13:21,934 --> 00:13:24,036
Not that I would.
266
00:13:24,036 --> 00:13:25,171
Because you're virtual, so you're.
267
00:13:25,171 --> 00:13:28,841
Actually laying hands on another
human being is wrong.
268
00:13:28,941 --> 00:13:32,945
It's okay to want to just don't do it
269
00:13:33,045 --> 00:13:35,247
that way.
270
00:13:35,314 --> 00:13:36,482
But the big one for
271
00:13:36,482 --> 00:13:40,386
me and it's because I never do this, is I,
272
00:13:40,419 --> 00:13:44,223
I don't do face time or meetings,
273
00:13:44,223 --> 00:13:49,562
especially work meetings on my phone.
274
00:13:49,628 --> 00:13:53,499
When I'm having a conversation,
a webcam conversation
275
00:13:53,499 --> 00:13:56,836
with they're on their phone
and they're walking,
276
00:13:56,936 --> 00:13:58,838
and it's like
277
00:13:58,838 --> 00:14:01,540
being on the deck of the Titanic.
278
00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:04,543
Like, it's super distracting.
279
00:14:04,643 --> 00:14:06,912
Well, not only that, but, like, okay, I'm.
280
00:14:06,912 --> 00:14:08,914
Somebody gets motion sick, really easy.
281
00:14:08,914 --> 00:14:13,319
And still,
I literally cannot watch people do that.
282
00:14:13,352 --> 00:14:15,287
Like, I know it's a thing.
283
00:14:15,287 --> 00:14:19,091
And we've we've had people on our own team
that have done that occasionally.
284
00:14:19,091 --> 00:14:21,460
And I'm just like,
I literally have to hide your camera
285
00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:25,598
because otherwise I'm a puke all over the.
286
00:14:25,664 --> 00:14:26,532
Yeah.
287
00:14:26,532 --> 00:14:30,870
I am surprised that
that wasn't mentioned in this list.
288
00:14:30,936 --> 00:14:31,570
Yeah.
289
00:14:31,570 --> 00:14:35,374
I mean, it was I don't know, you know,
290
00:14:35,441 --> 00:14:37,443
the problem with surveys is
291
00:14:37,443 --> 00:14:40,412
they people answer the question
that you ask.
292
00:14:40,512 --> 00:14:42,414
Right. Right.
293
00:14:42,414 --> 00:14:45,251
Nobody says, by the way.
294
00:14:45,251 --> 00:14:47,386
Yeah. This drives me crazy, too.
295
00:14:47,386 --> 00:14:50,756
I think the biggest one
296
00:14:50,756 --> 00:14:55,728
and this is true of the workplace
in general, which gets
297
00:14:55,828 --> 00:14:59,832
generational conflict
is what you're wearing on your call.
298
00:14:59,899 --> 00:15:03,135
Right.
299
00:15:03,235 --> 00:15:04,403
Yeah. So.
300
00:15:04,403 --> 00:15:07,873
So is it okay to wear your pajamas,
you know?
301
00:15:08,007 --> 00:15:13,245
Do you wear what you sleep
in on a zoom meeting?
302
00:15:13,345 --> 00:15:17,816
And, you know,
I sleep naked, so the answer is no.
303
00:15:17,883 --> 00:15:20,252
Thank you.
304
00:15:20,252 --> 00:15:23,789
Welcome to another edition
of too much information.
305
00:15:23,856 --> 00:15:27,793
Like, unplug my headphones about.
306
00:15:27,893 --> 00:15:30,896
Do not need to know. But.
307
00:15:31,096 --> 00:15:33,065
But it drives me crazy.
308
00:15:33,065 --> 00:15:34,800
My daughter wears pajamas.
309
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:35,701
24 seven.
310
00:15:35,701 --> 00:15:38,704
She goes to the grocery store in a onesie.
311
00:15:38,904 --> 00:15:41,740
No. It drives me insane.
312
00:15:41,740 --> 00:15:44,376
Well, she's about a year
younger than me. Yes.
313
00:15:44,376 --> 00:15:44,710
Okay.
314
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:48,580
See, I was also the weird person,
and I will confess, I'm weird
315
00:15:48,647 --> 00:15:51,383
that I wouldn't
go to college classes in pajamas,
316
00:15:51,383 --> 00:15:54,620
and I felt like it was very respectful
or disrespectful When.
317
00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:55,621
Why would somebody.
318
00:15:55,621 --> 00:15:57,990
Go to college classes in pajamas?
319
00:15:57,990 --> 00:16:01,694
Why would you leave your dorm room?
320
00:16:01,794 --> 00:16:02,695
We had 8 a.m.
321
00:16:02,695 --> 00:16:06,031
classes
and I was like the only one in jeans.
322
00:16:06,098 --> 00:16:07,333
I Yeah.
323
00:16:07,333 --> 00:16:10,235
But now you're an old soul. That is true.
324
00:16:10,235 --> 00:16:12,938
So, you know, I can appreciate that.
325
00:16:12,938 --> 00:16:15,941
That's. That's why I adore you.
326
00:16:16,108 --> 00:16:17,409
But it's not.
327
00:16:17,409 --> 00:16:20,079
But, Jim, is there, like,
an obvious example?
328
00:16:20,079 --> 00:16:20,879
Correct.
329
00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:23,382
Right. Right.
330
00:16:23,382 --> 00:16:25,617
But what do you wear on a call?
331
00:16:25,617 --> 00:16:29,088
And again, context matters.
332
00:16:29,188 --> 00:16:29,855
Right. Right.
333
00:16:29,855 --> 00:16:33,525
If I'm working from home
and because I'm always working from home
334
00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:37,529
and you have a question
and we have to get on a zoom or
335
00:16:37,629 --> 00:16:40,532
whatever, call real quick.
336
00:16:40,532 --> 00:16:45,371
If I'm in my gym shorts,
you know, if I'm not dressed
337
00:16:45,371 --> 00:16:48,941
100% professionally,
it doesn't matter because it's you and me.
338
00:16:48,941 --> 00:16:53,412
It's going to be a five minute
conversation and we're out. Yep.
339
00:16:53,512 --> 00:16:56,181
If I'm in front of a customer, a.
340
00:16:56,181 --> 00:16:58,217
Totally different ballgame.
341
00:16:58,217 --> 00:17:01,420
You know, from the hips up,
342
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,722
I need to be dressed like an adult.
343
00:17:03,722 --> 00:17:04,957
Right.
344
00:17:04,957 --> 00:17:07,993
I have worn a shirt, tie and cargo shorts.
345
00:17:07,993 --> 00:17:09,962
I have done that more than once.
346
00:17:09,962 --> 00:17:11,230
That's okay.
347
00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:14,033
The customer doesn't see it. Yeah.
348
00:17:14,033 --> 00:17:16,935
I mean, I've occasionally done
that where I've had yoga pants and, like,
349
00:17:16,935 --> 00:17:22,708
something really nice or there
when it's really cold in my office.
350
00:17:22,775 --> 00:17:25,444
I have one of those like, Snuggie blanket
351
00:17:25,444 --> 00:17:28,947
things that,
I mean, like I it's, it's Navy blue.
352
00:17:28,947 --> 00:17:29,515
I put on it.
353
00:17:29,515 --> 00:17:30,783
I look like Cookie Monster.
354
00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:33,385
Like it's a thing, but it's super warm.
355
00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:36,522
But you better believe if I'm sitting here
and working with it on
356
00:17:36,722 --> 00:17:40,225
and you or Kevin or somebody else is like,
Hey, we have a meeting real quick.
357
00:17:40,225 --> 00:17:41,527
It's Hey, can you give me a second?
358
00:17:41,527 --> 00:17:45,764
And I will remove that
because I do have standards.
359
00:17:45,864 --> 00:17:46,098
Yeah.
360
00:17:46,098 --> 00:17:51,270
And I think that goes
to a larger conversation which is worth
361
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:57,476
having someday about formality
or informality in the workplace.
362
00:17:57,543 --> 00:17:58,544
Right.
363
00:17:58,544 --> 00:18:02,581
I was working with 45 h.r.
364
00:18:02,581 --> 00:18:05,584
People at a client yesterday,
365
00:18:05,617 --> 00:18:08,253
and we were talking about
366
00:18:08,253 --> 00:18:14,193
what are the things that they're
dealing with and dress code
367
00:18:14,259 --> 00:18:19,331
and a appropriate and inappropriate
368
00:18:19,431 --> 00:18:21,733
clothing in the workplace
369
00:18:21,733 --> 00:18:24,603
has bloomed as a problem.
370
00:18:24,603 --> 00:18:27,406
Yeah, I've seen it in sorority meetings
sometimes, too.
371
00:18:27,406 --> 00:18:30,609
And i'm like
this is supposed to be business wear,
372
00:18:30,609 --> 00:18:33,612
and you have a denim skirt on.
373
00:18:33,745 --> 00:18:36,748
Like,
we would have set them home if it was
374
00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:40,252
when I was in, but it was like, Well,
we can't say that now.
375
00:18:40,352 --> 00:18:41,920
Yeah, it's interesting.
376
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,224
I just go back to what somebody told me,
just post-COVID
377
00:18:45,224 --> 00:18:51,130
when people were coming back
and she goes, They've gone feral.
378
00:18:51,196 --> 00:18:52,531
Right.
379
00:18:52,531 --> 00:18:57,636
Like there used to be
because the workplace
380
00:18:57,703 --> 00:19:00,239
was I mean, it was largely homogenous.
381
00:19:00,239 --> 00:19:03,642
But even if it wasn't homogenous
demographically,
382
00:19:03,709 --> 00:19:06,912
there were just codes
and the way things were done
383
00:19:06,912 --> 00:19:10,082
and they were the way
things have been done for 100 years.
384
00:19:10,082 --> 00:19:13,051
And you had work clothes
and you had plain clothes.
385
00:19:13,318 --> 00:19:14,186
Right, Right.
386
00:19:14,186 --> 00:19:15,354
It's like going to school.
387
00:19:15,354 --> 00:19:19,725
I had school clothes
and plain clothes. They weren't the same.
388
00:19:19,825 --> 00:19:22,261
And when we worked from
389
00:19:22,261 --> 00:19:26,431
home, the it wasn't just that you're home.
390
00:19:26,431 --> 00:19:28,534
You can wear whatever the heck you want,
391
00:19:28,534 --> 00:19:32,538
but the social pressure
about what you wore went down.
392
00:19:32,638 --> 00:19:35,641
So even now, men
393
00:19:35,641 --> 00:19:39,211
who wear suits to the office
rarely wear a tie.
394
00:19:39,278 --> 00:19:43,048
Yeah, like they'll wear a jacket,
button down shirt.
395
00:19:43,048 --> 00:19:44,783
I mean, they'll look.
They still look nice.
396
00:19:44,783 --> 00:19:50,322
But they're not wearing, you know,
the double Windsor at their throat.
397
00:19:50,422 --> 00:19:52,958
And I think that
398
00:19:52,958 --> 00:19:56,061
what that does and this gets back
to the Spider-Man paradox, right?
399
00:19:56,094 --> 00:19:59,231
With great power comes great
responsibility is
400
00:19:59,264 --> 00:20:03,001
just because you can dress a certain way
401
00:20:03,202 --> 00:20:07,105
or act a certain way
or get away with doing something
402
00:20:07,172 --> 00:20:10,609
online that you can't or wouldn't
403
00:20:10,609 --> 00:20:14,780
do in the office doesn't mean you should.
404
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:15,414
Right.
405
00:20:15,414 --> 00:20:19,418
I mean, there's still a level of respect,
both for yourself and for whomever
406
00:20:19,418 --> 00:20:20,619
you're on the call with.
407
00:20:20,619 --> 00:20:24,089
And, you know, yes,
you are a grown person.
408
00:20:24,122 --> 00:20:27,192
Yes. You can make your own choices.
409
00:20:27,259 --> 00:20:30,262
You know, it's the whole thing about
do you get dressed
410
00:20:30,262 --> 00:20:34,099
in work,
appropriate attire in the morning.
411
00:20:34,199 --> 00:20:34,766
Right.
412
00:20:34,766 --> 00:20:37,402
Even when nobody's
going to see you. Right.
413
00:20:37,402 --> 00:20:41,373
There is evidence psychologically
that it affects how you think
414
00:20:41,373 --> 00:20:44,576
and how you work
in your level of professionalism.
415
00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:49,081
And there are plenty of people who say,
shut up, old man, my onesie is fine
416
00:20:49,081 --> 00:20:54,286
and it doesn't affect the outcome of my
417
00:20:54,386 --> 00:20:55,621
spreadsheet.
418
00:20:55,621 --> 00:20:55,921
Right.
419
00:20:55,921 --> 00:20:58,924
Like, I know some people
that they feel like even when they're
420
00:20:58,924 --> 00:21:03,929
working from home, I'm going to wear shoes
because for them, like even just having,
421
00:21:04,062 --> 00:21:07,966
you know, whatever they're wearing,
having shoes is the thing that helps them
422
00:21:08,066 --> 00:21:10,669
be productive.
I am not one of those people.
423
00:21:10,669 --> 00:21:13,672
I will admit I'm barefoot right now
and have a blanket on my lap,
424
00:21:13,805 --> 00:21:17,843
but I'm still appropriately dressed.
425
00:21:17,943 --> 00:21:19,611
And so senior notes.
426
00:21:19,611 --> 00:21:23,382
Send your notes to Wilma Flintstone here.
427
00:21:23,448 --> 00:21:24,182
Right.
428
00:21:24,182 --> 00:21:27,019
But like I would have been even
without this podcast,
429
00:21:27,019 --> 00:21:30,055
because that's just I'm just a.
430
00:21:30,122 --> 00:21:31,523
From the house down.
431
00:21:31,523 --> 00:21:35,027
It's the Wild West.
432
00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:38,697
You could do whatever you want
from the bellybutton up.
433
00:21:38,697 --> 00:21:42,634
You better look like you're working.
434
00:21:42,701 --> 00:21:43,402
A couple of things.
435
00:21:43,402 --> 00:21:47,572
We are way past time and we have had
an inordinate amount of fun, and
436
00:21:47,572 --> 00:21:52,944
I think there are some important things
to think about this right?
437
00:21:53,011 --> 00:21:55,747
Where do the generational differences?
438
00:21:55,747 --> 00:21:56,281
Right.
439
00:21:56,281 --> 00:22:00,719
If I'm going to coach somebody
about their appearance or their demeanor.
440
00:22:00,786 --> 00:22:04,289
Am I doing it
because it's a valid business reason?
441
00:22:04,323 --> 00:22:07,192
Am I doing it because I am an old man?
442
00:22:07,192 --> 00:22:09,928
Right? Right.
443
00:22:09,928 --> 00:22:14,833
That is a conversation worth having
444
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:17,436
when it's you and I talking.
445
00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:23,008
The level of formality is much lower
than when I'm talking to a client.
446
00:22:23,075 --> 00:22:25,944
And it should be right. Right.
447
00:22:25,944 --> 00:22:28,947
If you are inappropriately informal
448
00:22:29,047 --> 00:22:32,050
in a important business meeting.
449
00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:35,053
Right. The VP is on the call.
450
00:22:35,153 --> 00:22:35,887
Yeah.
451
00:22:35,887 --> 00:22:42,794
Your AC DC T-shirt
may not be the best choice,
452
00:22:42,894 --> 00:22:44,863
but again, it's incumbent on us.
453
00:22:44,863 --> 00:22:46,264
Yes, the rules are changing.
454
00:22:46,264 --> 00:22:49,267
Yes, they are more flexible
than they ever were.
455
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:53,839
And what is the minimum
professional standard
456
00:22:53,972 --> 00:22:58,310
in your industry, on your team,
in your organization?
457
00:22:58,410 --> 00:22:59,177
Absolutely.
458
00:22:59,177 --> 00:23:01,680
And those are the things
we need to think about.
459
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,851
Look at me wrapping all this up,
trying real hard to sound like
460
00:23:05,851 --> 00:23:07,552
we've had a professional discussion
461
00:23:07,552 --> 00:23:13,125
instead of venting,
which we've largely been discussed.
462
00:23:13,225 --> 00:23:15,627
And that being said,
if you would like to know how to be
463
00:23:15,627 --> 00:23:19,531
more professional in your meetings
and remote work, you can check out
464
00:23:19,531 --> 00:23:22,534
our long distance
leadership series at Kevin Ikenberry, dot
465
00:23:22,534 --> 00:23:25,537
com slash LDL s.
466
00:23:25,771 --> 00:23:27,539
Thank you for listening
to the long work life
467
00:23:27,539 --> 00:23:30,075
for shownotes
transcripts and other resources.
468
00:23:30,075 --> 00:23:32,611
Make sure to visit long distance
work dot com.
469
00:23:32,611 --> 00:23:34,579
If you haven't yet,
subscribe to the podcast
470
00:23:34,579 --> 00:23:37,149
so you won't miss any future episodes.
471
00:23:37,149 --> 00:23:39,518
And while you're there,
be sure to like in review.
472
00:23:39,518 --> 00:23:42,154
This helps us know what you love
about our show.
473
00:23:42,154 --> 00:23:45,857
Feel free to contact us via email or
LinkedIn with the links in our show notes
474
00:23:45,957 --> 00:23:49,227
and let us know you listen to this episode
or even suggest topic for Wayne
475
00:23:49,227 --> 00:23:51,663
and I to tackle any future episodes
we would love.
476
00:23:51,663 --> 00:23:52,497
And tell us.
477
00:23:52,497 --> 00:23:55,801
Tell us your meeting. Yes. Are we right?
478
00:23:55,801 --> 00:23:56,835
Are we wrong?
479
00:23:56,835 --> 00:24:01,907
Am I a grungy, grumpy old man
yelling at clouds, or do I have a point?
480
00:24:02,007 --> 00:24:03,175
Am I just an old soul?
481
00:24:03,175 --> 00:24:06,378
Don't know how to act
at 32 inches your shoes.
482
00:24:06,411 --> 00:24:07,913
Darn it.
483
00:24:08,013 --> 00:24:08,513
I might slip.
484
00:24:08,513 --> 00:24:10,382
Or sometimes
485
00:24:10,382 --> 00:24:12,083
when my feet are cool,
486
00:24:12,083 --> 00:24:14,352
thick you for joining us, everybody.
487
00:24:14,352 --> 00:24:16,855
And as Wayne likes to say,
don't let the weasels get you down.
00:00:08,341 --> 00:00:09,442
Welcome back to Long-Distance
2
00:00:09,442 --> 00:00:13,046
Worklife, where we help you lead, work
and thrive in remote and hybrid teams.
3
00:00:13,279 --> 00:00:15,348
I'm Marisa Eikenberry,
a fellow remote worker.
4
00:00:15,348 --> 00:00:18,585
And joining me is my co-host
and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel.
5
00:00:18,685 --> 00:00:19,986
That would be me. Hi.
6
00:00:19,986 --> 00:00:21,321
How are you? I'm great.
7
00:00:21,321 --> 00:00:22,355
How are you?
8
00:00:22,355 --> 00:00:23,289
I'm great.
9
00:00:23,289 --> 00:00:26,893
It feels like a million years
since we have recorded one of these.
10
00:00:26,893 --> 00:00:29,162
So this could be fun.
11
00:00:29,162 --> 00:00:30,797
Or it could be a car wreck.
12
00:00:30,797 --> 00:00:33,433
This is the joy of recording live, right?
13
00:00:33,433 --> 00:00:33,767
Yeah.
14
00:00:33,767 --> 00:00:36,836
I was going to say,
I mean, for those that are now scared,
15
00:00:36,836 --> 00:00:41,107
if you're first time
listeners, do not shut this off,
16
00:00:41,174 --> 00:00:43,343
but that being said,
17
00:00:43,343 --> 00:00:46,679
today we're actually going to talk
about acceptable meeting behaviors.
18
00:00:46,746 --> 00:00:51,451
So we actually got this survey
sent to us by our boss, Kevin.
19
00:00:51,451 --> 00:00:57,057
And so it's a 2023 YouGov survey
that was done of
20
00:00:57,057 --> 00:01:00,093
just different, acceptable or unacceptable
leading behaviors.
21
00:01:00,093 --> 00:01:02,629
And they start off
with just behaviors in general.
22
00:01:02,629 --> 00:01:04,964
And then we actually go
into generational stuff.
23
00:01:04,964 --> 00:01:07,567
But now just to clarify,
24
00:01:07,567 --> 00:01:11,704
for the mere mortals out there
who can't read our minds,
25
00:01:11,771 --> 00:01:13,673
YouGov is
26
00:01:13,673 --> 00:01:17,877
essentially this is a survey,
internal survey of U.S.
27
00:01:17,877 --> 00:01:21,548
federal workers in all the branches,
28
00:01:21,614 --> 00:01:25,351
all the divisions, all the stuff right.
29
00:01:25,418 --> 00:01:27,187
Now, lots and lots of people.
30
00:01:27,187 --> 00:01:29,956
Context. Yeah, exactly.
31
00:01:29,956 --> 00:01:32,092
And one of the first things that they did
talk about,
32
00:01:32,092 --> 00:01:36,229
which we've talked about before, you know,
we mentioned remote work, is that
33
00:01:36,329 --> 00:01:39,933
while we would like to think
that this is a majority of the population,
34
00:01:39,933 --> 00:01:42,936
the majority of the population
is not remote working.
35
00:01:43,002 --> 00:01:46,306
But they talked about 32% of Americans
participate
36
00:01:46,306 --> 00:01:50,176
in virtual meetings
for work and 37% for like personal calls.
37
00:01:50,276 --> 00:01:53,947
So so that's where we're going with this.
38
00:01:53,947 --> 00:01:59,619
But Wayne, were there any that kind of
stuck out to you from this first,
39
00:01:59,686 --> 00:02:02,655
you know, acceptable,
not acceptable, graphic.
40
00:02:02,655 --> 00:02:05,592
And for those of you that are watching,
I'm going to have this up on the screen.
41
00:02:05,592 --> 00:02:09,762
Yeah,
I think if we look at the general numbers,
42
00:02:09,762 --> 00:02:15,335
we're not getting generational
or granular on this, just in general.
43
00:02:15,401 --> 00:02:17,637
Certain things make sense, right?
44
00:02:17,637 --> 00:02:20,807
Having a TV on in the background,
45
00:02:20,907 --> 00:02:23,877
smoking, although that's interesting.
46
00:02:23,877 --> 00:02:24,410
Okay.
47
00:02:24,410 --> 00:02:25,879
So why is it interesting to you?
48
00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:29,115
Well, it says a whole lot more about
49
00:02:29,115 --> 00:02:33,153
where society is gone
than where the meetings have gone.
50
00:02:33,219 --> 00:02:35,388
Because if we think about why
51
00:02:35,388 --> 00:02:39,526
smoking was banned in the workplace,
52
00:02:39,626 --> 00:02:42,061
second hand smoke
53
00:02:42,061 --> 00:02:45,365
being rude and blowing
smoke in somebody's face,
54
00:02:45,431 --> 00:02:48,368
all of that good stuff.
55
00:02:48,368 --> 00:02:51,938
A lot of people take remote meetings
in the privacy
56
00:02:51,938 --> 00:02:56,209
of their own home or a hotel room,
wherever they happen to be.
57
00:02:56,309 --> 00:02:58,878
And secondhand smoke is not an issue.
58
00:02:58,878 --> 00:03:01,748
You cannot catch secondhand smoke.
59
00:03:01,748 --> 00:03:03,516
Right through.
60
00:03:03,516 --> 00:03:07,153
Zoom. That is true.
61
00:03:07,253 --> 00:03:11,191
So I think that says more about the fact
62
00:03:11,191 --> 00:03:16,196
that people just don't want anybody
smoking at all.
63
00:03:16,262 --> 00:03:19,232
Whether or not it's rude on a meeting.
64
00:03:19,232 --> 00:03:21,734
Now, some of that is
I come from the generation
65
00:03:21,734 --> 00:03:24,938
where I can remember
people smoking in meetings.
66
00:03:25,004 --> 00:03:26,406
Yeah, See that? I can't remember.
67
00:03:26,406 --> 00:03:29,876
I was old enough to still remember
smoking in restaurants
68
00:03:30,109 --> 00:03:32,312
and there being a section for both.
69
00:03:32,312 --> 00:03:36,115
And of course, I live in Las Vegas
where you can still do that.
70
00:03:36,349 --> 00:03:37,784
All right.
71
00:03:37,884 --> 00:03:38,151
Well,
72
00:03:38,151 --> 00:03:41,221
and then for our audio listeners,
so for smoking,
73
00:03:41,221 --> 00:03:45,358
they said, you know, 75% of those surveyed
said it's not acceptable in any meeting,
74
00:03:45,425 --> 00:03:48,628
while 12% said it's acceptable
in informal meetings.
75
00:03:48,628 --> 00:03:52,532
And five said it's,
5% said it's acceptable in any meeting.
76
00:03:52,599 --> 00:03:52,932
Yeah.
77
00:03:52,932 --> 00:03:56,669
One of the interesting things
I found about this report
78
00:03:56,736 --> 00:04:03,109
is that there is an increasing,
79
00:04:03,209 --> 00:04:04,844
especially among people
80
00:04:04,844 --> 00:04:08,214
under older than dirt.
81
00:04:08,281 --> 00:04:12,752
There is an increasing gap
between what it's
82
00:04:12,752 --> 00:04:18,625
okay to do in an informal meeting,
you know teammates a teammate
83
00:04:18,691 --> 00:04:23,763
than in a formal meeting
where you're doing a sales presentation
84
00:04:23,763 --> 00:04:27,900
or you have a customer on the line
or whatever that works out to.
85
00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:31,104
I think that is interesting.
86
00:04:31,170 --> 00:04:32,171
yeah, for sure.
87
00:04:32,171 --> 00:04:35,975
And where you find that a lot is,
88
00:04:36,042 --> 00:04:39,812
is it
okay to have a child or a pet in your lap?
89
00:04:39,879 --> 00:04:41,180
Right.
90
00:04:41,281 --> 00:04:44,851
And interestingly, more people
find it acceptable
91
00:04:44,851 --> 00:04:49,689
to have a pet in your lap
than a kid in your lap,
92
00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:52,025
which in a strange way makes sense.
93
00:04:52,025 --> 00:04:54,827
It really does.
94
00:04:54,827 --> 00:04:57,363
But, you know, I can remember
95
00:04:57,363 --> 00:05:00,066
when remote work started to catch on.
96
00:05:00,066 --> 00:05:04,671
If you wanted to know whether or not
somebody worked remotely on a regular
97
00:05:04,671 --> 00:05:10,209
basis or not, you'd be on a conference
call and a dog would bark.
98
00:05:10,276 --> 00:05:12,612
And the people who worked
99
00:05:12,612 --> 00:05:15,615
remotely
would say, say hi to Bailey for me.
100
00:05:15,815 --> 00:05:19,952
And the people who didn't work
remotely were like,
101
00:05:19,952 --> 00:05:23,623
Is that a dog?
102
00:05:23,690 --> 00:05:25,892
Like they'd never heard a dog before?
103
00:05:25,892 --> 00:05:28,695
Right.
104
00:05:28,695 --> 00:05:32,065
And so I think that gap between
105
00:05:32,065 --> 00:05:36,269
formal and informal,
if I'm just talking to you,
106
00:05:36,336 --> 00:05:38,071
you know, I don't care.
107
00:05:38,071 --> 00:05:39,005
Right, Right, Exactly.
108
00:05:39,005 --> 00:05:40,940
Like Max Barks. And it's fine.
109
00:05:40,940 --> 00:05:41,240
Yeah.
110
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,076
Max barks Or he jumps in my lap
111
00:05:43,076 --> 00:05:45,778
and I hold him up and go
say hi to Auntie Marisa.
112
00:05:45,778 --> 00:05:47,814
Right, right. Right.
113
00:05:47,814 --> 00:05:48,047
Yeah.
114
00:05:48,047 --> 00:05:52,719
My husband drops in behind me,
and I'm just like, my God, Go away.
115
00:05:52,785 --> 00:05:54,554
And I'm going, Hi, Parker.
116
00:05:54,554 --> 00:05:54,987
Right.
117
00:05:54,987 --> 00:06:00,026
Say hi to Uncle Ray.
118
00:06:00,093 --> 00:06:05,398
So I think some of those
are really interesting
119
00:06:05,465 --> 00:06:08,468
where you start to see some gaps.
120
00:06:08,634 --> 00:06:11,637
Is. Is it okay to eat?
121
00:06:11,704 --> 00:06:13,639
Right? Right. Is it okay to drink?
122
00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:16,776
There is a percentage of humans
and I'm looking for it.
123
00:06:16,776 --> 00:06:20,713
And I'm wondering
who these evil people are. 3%.
124
00:06:20,813 --> 00:06:22,548
No, it's not 3%.
125
00:06:22,548 --> 00:06:24,250
It's.
126
00:06:24,250 --> 00:06:26,552
I'm looking for
127
00:06:26,552 --> 00:06:28,821
drinking and nonalcoholic drinks.
128
00:06:28,821 --> 00:06:29,088
Yeah.
129
00:06:29,088 --> 00:06:32,291
So 17%
say it's not acceptable in any medium.
130
00:06:32,358 --> 00:06:35,261
53% say it's acceptable in any meeting.
131
00:06:35,261 --> 00:06:37,764
And 22 say only informal meetings.
132
00:06:37,764 --> 00:06:37,997
Yeah.
133
00:06:37,997 --> 00:06:41,267
The Geneva Convention says
people are allowed hydration.
134
00:06:41,467 --> 00:06:42,268
Right.
135
00:06:42,268 --> 00:06:44,971
Like I remember looking at
this would be like,
136
00:06:44,971 --> 00:06:50,510
I don't think I have ever been
bothered by somebody taking a drink ever.
137
00:06:50,610 --> 00:06:53,413
I can understand
not wanting to be on a meeting
138
00:06:53,413 --> 00:06:56,416
and it's not a happy hour and like,
they're clearly drinking a beer.
139
00:06:56,416 --> 00:06:57,283
Like, that's a problem.
140
00:06:57,283 --> 00:06:58,117
I get that.
141
00:06:58,117 --> 00:07:00,820
But like, I have a soda with me
142
00:07:00,820 --> 00:07:04,590
all the time
and I drink it in meetings all the time.
143
00:07:04,590 --> 00:07:08,094
And I never thought about it
being a problem until I saw that.
144
00:07:08,161 --> 00:07:11,197
Well, until we hold the intervention.
145
00:07:11,264 --> 00:07:13,399
Well, you know,
146
00:07:13,399 --> 00:07:16,235
it could be worse.
147
00:07:16,235 --> 00:07:18,938
So, you know, if we look at it, it's
148
00:07:18,938 --> 00:07:24,210
not really surprising what people think
is acceptable and unacceptable.
149
00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:27,213
I suppose.
150
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,282
It gets interesting around
151
00:07:29,282 --> 00:07:32,285
formal and informal meetings.
152
00:07:32,351 --> 00:07:34,454
Right.
153
00:07:34,454 --> 00:07:39,192
And I have been on informal meetings.
154
00:07:39,258 --> 00:07:41,694
And again, everything is context, right?
155
00:07:41,694 --> 00:07:43,930
Right. I belong to a writer's group.
156
00:07:43,930 --> 00:07:47,667
We used to regularly have cocktails
during our meetings.
157
00:07:47,733 --> 00:07:48,668
Yeah.
158
00:07:48,668 --> 00:07:52,438
If we're talking about it, work.
159
00:07:52,505 --> 00:07:56,709
I have had meetings with people overseas
160
00:07:56,776 --> 00:08:00,480
who, you know, are taking the meeting
out of the kindness of their heart.
161
00:08:00,513 --> 00:08:02,181
But it's after dinner
162
00:08:02,181 --> 00:08:06,586
and they have a glass of wine
or a beer with them as we're having it.
163
00:08:06,586 --> 00:08:09,155
And it doesn't bother me. Right.
164
00:08:09,155 --> 00:08:10,923
First of all, they're the customer.
165
00:08:10,923 --> 00:08:13,860
What am I going to say? Okay.
166
00:08:13,926 --> 00:08:17,497
But also, it's an informal discussion.
167
00:08:17,497 --> 00:08:20,132
And I want
168
00:08:20,132 --> 00:08:23,402
I want a heightened level of informality
169
00:08:23,402 --> 00:08:25,872
because I think you communicate
better that way.
170
00:08:25,872 --> 00:08:26,706
Right. Yeah.
171
00:08:26,706 --> 00:08:32,211
I mean, I've been on some, you know,
virtual happy hour stuff with sorority
172
00:08:32,311 --> 00:08:34,514
sorority meetings or webinars or whatever.
173
00:08:34,514 --> 00:08:37,149
And it's just like, yeah, like it's 9:00.
174
00:08:37,149 --> 00:08:39,752
If I have a cocktail, it's fine.
175
00:08:39,752 --> 00:08:41,454
If they have a cocktail, it's fine.
176
00:08:41,454 --> 00:08:46,692
Now, one of the ones
which is very personal to me because and
177
00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:49,762
people who regularly view
this don't know this,
178
00:08:49,762 --> 00:08:52,765
but I wear hats a lot.
179
00:08:52,832 --> 00:08:54,834
I thought about you when I saw the.
180
00:08:54,834 --> 00:08:56,969
Different types of hats,
181
00:08:56,969 --> 00:08:59,572
but you'll notice that nobody on this
182
00:08:59,572 --> 00:09:04,544
podcast has ever seen me wearing a hat
because I differentiate
183
00:09:04,544 --> 00:09:08,281
between work
Wayne and Wayne in the rest of my life.
184
00:09:08,548 --> 00:09:15,988
However, the one time I
do wear a hat on a work call
185
00:09:16,055 --> 00:09:19,058
is because I live on the West Coast.
186
00:09:19,292 --> 00:09:22,828
My day
starts way earlier than everybody else's.
187
00:09:23,062 --> 00:09:26,132
And if somebody's
not necessarily a client,
188
00:09:26,132 --> 00:09:30,102
but if somebody on our team
or somebody like that
189
00:09:30,336 --> 00:09:33,406
calls a meeting for 9:00 Eastern
190
00:09:33,406 --> 00:09:36,542
time, there is a pretty good chance
191
00:09:36,542 --> 00:09:41,681
I am not going to be showered
and presentable.
192
00:09:41,781 --> 00:09:42,048
Right.
193
00:09:42,048 --> 00:09:46,419
And so I can throw on a shirt
that's not a big deal,
194
00:09:46,485 --> 00:09:52,658
but all off and put on a baseball cap
just so I don't look like Albert Einstein.
195
00:09:52,725 --> 00:09:55,962
Well, I thought it was interesting, too,
when I was seeing that, because, you know,
196
00:09:56,162 --> 00:09:57,663
we had a team member
197
00:09:57,663 --> 00:10:01,701
that she wore hats frequently
and that was just part of her style.
198
00:10:01,701 --> 00:10:03,569
That was just how she was.
199
00:10:03,569 --> 00:10:05,838
And I was never bothered by it.
200
00:10:05,838 --> 00:10:09,008
When I would see out,
it was usually a wow, like that.
201
00:10:09,141 --> 00:10:09,842
That's cool hat.
202
00:10:09,842 --> 00:10:12,845
I hadn't seen or wear that one before
or something like that.
203
00:10:13,012 --> 00:10:15,982
So I definitely found it interesting
204
00:10:15,982 --> 00:10:18,985
it being on this because it is an issue.
205
00:10:19,218 --> 00:10:24,490
Most people who wear hats do it as a cheap
attempt at branding and difference.
206
00:10:24,490 --> 00:10:27,727
Yeah, it's just myself included. Right.
207
00:10:27,793 --> 00:10:28,260
So that
208
00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:32,231
particular
person that was part of her wacky.
209
00:10:32,331 --> 00:10:32,898
Yeah, That was her.
210
00:10:32,898 --> 00:10:34,700
Laid back style and it was great.
211
00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:39,238
One of the things that is important,
212
00:10:39,305 --> 00:10:43,609
if you're going to do that, though,
and baseball caps are a problem for this,
213
00:10:43,809 --> 00:10:46,979
is they affect the lighting over your eyes
and very often
214
00:10:46,979 --> 00:10:50,850
make it hard for people to see your eyes.
215
00:10:50,850 --> 00:10:52,351
And that can be a problem.
216
00:10:52,351 --> 00:10:55,354
Right. And I can totally see that right.
217
00:10:55,588 --> 00:10:59,525
Now where things get ugly
218
00:10:59,592 --> 00:11:02,061
as we look at that
219
00:11:02,061 --> 00:11:05,898
is generationally. Yes.
220
00:11:05,998 --> 00:11:10,836
What people find acceptable
and what they don't.
221
00:11:10,903 --> 00:11:13,906
I used to think I was pretty cool.
222
00:11:13,939 --> 00:11:17,410
And and I do
223
00:11:17,476 --> 00:11:20,379
differentiate between formal
and informal meetings.
224
00:11:20,379 --> 00:11:21,447
Right.
225
00:11:21,447 --> 00:11:27,386
And since extremely formal
has never been my style.
226
00:11:27,453 --> 00:11:29,488
I'm fairly relaxed
227
00:11:29,488 --> 00:11:32,925
about some things,
sometimes more than I should be.
228
00:11:33,025 --> 00:11:36,462
And I am a child of my generation.
229
00:11:36,529 --> 00:11:38,864
Right. Okay, So give us an example.
230
00:11:38,864 --> 00:11:42,802
I'm 62 years old, right?
231
00:11:42,868 --> 00:11:46,305
I'm looking
at where there's a huge difference
232
00:11:46,305 --> 00:11:50,743
in what's acceptable
and what's unacceptable.
233
00:11:50,843 --> 00:11:53,846
You know, walking around the room
234
00:11:53,846 --> 00:11:55,147
during the meeting.
235
00:11:55,147 --> 00:11:56,682
Right.
236
00:11:56,682 --> 00:11:59,652
There is no reason not to do that.
237
00:11:59,652 --> 00:12:03,122
I'm when I'm in the conference room,
238
00:12:03,189 --> 00:12:08,794
I very often because my joints
ache and stuff and I have
239
00:12:08,794 --> 00:12:12,565
the attention span of an Irish setter,
so I have to burn off energy.
240
00:12:12,565 --> 00:12:15,367
So I'll stand and move
to the back of the room. Right.
241
00:12:15,367 --> 00:12:19,605
Stand against the back wall or something
while the meeting is going on.
242
00:12:19,705 --> 00:12:23,209
I tend not to do that on virtual meetings,
243
00:12:23,209 --> 00:12:26,612
but I think that's largely a function
244
00:12:26,612 --> 00:12:29,582
of my camera setup.
245
00:12:29,648 --> 00:12:30,983
Right.
246
00:12:30,983 --> 00:12:32,885
I'm on camera most of the time.
247
00:12:32,885 --> 00:12:36,722
If it's a telephone call, I'll walk down.
248
00:12:36,889 --> 00:12:40,493
There are
there are ruts in our carpet from where
249
00:12:40,493 --> 00:12:44,163
I pace and walk
during a comp during a telephone call.
250
00:12:44,363 --> 00:12:46,165
Right.
251
00:12:46,232 --> 00:12:47,500
But generally
252
00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:51,003
speaking, I'm a little more particularly
253
00:12:51,003 --> 00:12:56,509
if it's a camera meeting,
I'm a little more traditional.
254
00:12:56,509 --> 00:12:56,976
Like now.
255
00:12:56,976 --> 00:12:59,111
I'll sit there like a good boy and do it.
256
00:12:59,111 --> 00:13:00,312
Yeah, I do it too.
257
00:13:00,312 --> 00:13:03,349
And I have been on meetings
258
00:13:03,349 --> 00:13:06,752
or even streams that I watch
where like, people have gotten up.
259
00:13:06,752 --> 00:13:09,522
And I think for me
the issue is less that they've gotten up.
260
00:13:09,522 --> 00:13:12,525
It's that their mic is set up for that.
261
00:13:12,558 --> 00:13:15,261
And so now they're talking,
I can't hear you.
262
00:13:15,261 --> 00:13:16,095
You know what's worse?
263
00:13:16,095 --> 00:13:20,766
I just realized
when I want to throttle the person.
264
00:13:20,833 --> 00:13:21,934
Okay.
265
00:13:21,934 --> 00:13:24,036
Not that I would.
266
00:13:24,036 --> 00:13:25,171
Because you're virtual, so you're.
267
00:13:25,171 --> 00:13:28,841
Actually laying hands on another
human being is wrong.
268
00:13:28,941 --> 00:13:32,945
It's okay to want to just don't do it
269
00:13:33,045 --> 00:13:35,247
that way.
270
00:13:35,314 --> 00:13:36,482
But the big one for
271
00:13:36,482 --> 00:13:40,386
me and it's because I never do this, is I,
272
00:13:40,419 --> 00:13:44,223
I don't do face time or meetings,
273
00:13:44,223 --> 00:13:49,562
especially work meetings on my phone.
274
00:13:49,628 --> 00:13:53,499
When I'm having a conversation,
a webcam conversation
275
00:13:53,499 --> 00:13:56,836
with they're on their phone
and they're walking,
276
00:13:56,936 --> 00:13:58,838
and it's like
277
00:13:58,838 --> 00:14:01,540
being on the deck of the Titanic.
278
00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:04,543
Like, it's super distracting.
279
00:14:04,643 --> 00:14:06,912
Well, not only that, but, like, okay, I'm.
280
00:14:06,912 --> 00:14:08,914
Somebody gets motion sick, really easy.
281
00:14:08,914 --> 00:14:13,319
And still,
I literally cannot watch people do that.
282
00:14:13,352 --> 00:14:15,287
Like, I know it's a thing.
283
00:14:15,287 --> 00:14:19,091
And we've we've had people on our own team
that have done that occasionally.
284
00:14:19,091 --> 00:14:21,460
And I'm just like,
I literally have to hide your camera
285
00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:25,598
because otherwise I'm a puke all over the.
286
00:14:25,664 --> 00:14:26,532
Yeah.
287
00:14:26,532 --> 00:14:30,870
I am surprised that
that wasn't mentioned in this list.
288
00:14:30,936 --> 00:14:31,570
Yeah.
289
00:14:31,570 --> 00:14:35,374
I mean, it was I don't know, you know,
290
00:14:35,441 --> 00:14:37,443
the problem with surveys is
291
00:14:37,443 --> 00:14:40,412
they people answer the question
that you ask.
292
00:14:40,512 --> 00:14:42,414
Right. Right.
293
00:14:42,414 --> 00:14:45,251
Nobody says, by the way.
294
00:14:45,251 --> 00:14:47,386
Yeah. This drives me crazy, too.
295
00:14:47,386 --> 00:14:50,756
I think the biggest one
296
00:14:50,756 --> 00:14:55,728
and this is true of the workplace
in general, which gets
297
00:14:55,828 --> 00:14:59,832
generational conflict
is what you're wearing on your call.
298
00:14:59,899 --> 00:15:03,135
Right.
299
00:15:03,235 --> 00:15:04,403
Yeah. So.
300
00:15:04,403 --> 00:15:07,873
So is it okay to wear your pajamas,
you know?
301
00:15:08,007 --> 00:15:13,245
Do you wear what you sleep
in on a zoom meeting?
302
00:15:13,345 --> 00:15:17,816
And, you know,
I sleep naked, so the answer is no.
303
00:15:17,883 --> 00:15:20,252
Thank you.
304
00:15:20,252 --> 00:15:23,789
Welcome to another edition
of too much information.
305
00:15:23,856 --> 00:15:27,793
Like, unplug my headphones about.
306
00:15:27,893 --> 00:15:30,896
Do not need to know. But.
307
00:15:31,096 --> 00:15:33,065
But it drives me crazy.
308
00:15:33,065 --> 00:15:34,800
My daughter wears pajamas.
309
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:35,701
24 seven.
310
00:15:35,701 --> 00:15:38,704
She goes to the grocery store in a onesie.
311
00:15:38,904 --> 00:15:41,740
No. It drives me insane.
312
00:15:41,740 --> 00:15:44,376
Well, she's about a year
younger than me. Yes.
313
00:15:44,376 --> 00:15:44,710
Okay.
314
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:48,580
See, I was also the weird person,
and I will confess, I'm weird
315
00:15:48,647 --> 00:15:51,383
that I wouldn't
go to college classes in pajamas,
316
00:15:51,383 --> 00:15:54,620
and I felt like it was very respectful
or disrespectful When.
317
00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:55,621
Why would somebody.
318
00:15:55,621 --> 00:15:57,990
Go to college classes in pajamas?
319
00:15:57,990 --> 00:16:01,694
Why would you leave your dorm room?
320
00:16:01,794 --> 00:16:02,695
We had 8 a.m.
321
00:16:02,695 --> 00:16:06,031
classes
and I was like the only one in jeans.
322
00:16:06,098 --> 00:16:07,333
I Yeah.
323
00:16:07,333 --> 00:16:10,235
But now you're an old soul. That is true.
324
00:16:10,235 --> 00:16:12,938
So, you know, I can appreciate that.
325
00:16:12,938 --> 00:16:15,941
That's. That's why I adore you.
326
00:16:16,108 --> 00:16:17,409
But it's not.
327
00:16:17,409 --> 00:16:20,079
But, Jim, is there, like,
an obvious example?
328
00:16:20,079 --> 00:16:20,879
Correct.
329
00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:23,382
Right. Right.
330
00:16:23,382 --> 00:16:25,617
But what do you wear on a call?
331
00:16:25,617 --> 00:16:29,088
And again, context matters.
332
00:16:29,188 --> 00:16:29,855
Right. Right.
333
00:16:29,855 --> 00:16:33,525
If I'm working from home
and because I'm always working from home
334
00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:37,529
and you have a question
and we have to get on a zoom or
335
00:16:37,629 --> 00:16:40,532
whatever, call real quick.
336
00:16:40,532 --> 00:16:45,371
If I'm in my gym shorts,
you know, if I'm not dressed
337
00:16:45,371 --> 00:16:48,941
100% professionally,
it doesn't matter because it's you and me.
338
00:16:48,941 --> 00:16:53,412
It's going to be a five minute
conversation and we're out. Yep.
339
00:16:53,512 --> 00:16:56,181
If I'm in front of a customer, a.
340
00:16:56,181 --> 00:16:58,217
Totally different ballgame.
341
00:16:58,217 --> 00:17:01,420
You know, from the hips up,
342
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,722
I need to be dressed like an adult.
343
00:17:03,722 --> 00:17:04,957
Right.
344
00:17:04,957 --> 00:17:07,993
I have worn a shirt, tie and cargo shorts.
345
00:17:07,993 --> 00:17:09,962
I have done that more than once.
346
00:17:09,962 --> 00:17:11,230
That's okay.
347
00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:14,033
The customer doesn't see it. Yeah.
348
00:17:14,033 --> 00:17:16,935
I mean, I've occasionally done
that where I've had yoga pants and, like,
349
00:17:16,935 --> 00:17:22,708
something really nice or there
when it's really cold in my office.
350
00:17:22,775 --> 00:17:25,444
I have one of those like, Snuggie blanket
351
00:17:25,444 --> 00:17:28,947
things that,
I mean, like I it's, it's Navy blue.
352
00:17:28,947 --> 00:17:29,515
I put on it.
353
00:17:29,515 --> 00:17:30,783
I look like Cookie Monster.
354
00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:33,385
Like it's a thing, but it's super warm.
355
00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:36,522
But you better believe if I'm sitting here
and working with it on
356
00:17:36,722 --> 00:17:40,225
and you or Kevin or somebody else is like,
Hey, we have a meeting real quick.
357
00:17:40,225 --> 00:17:41,527
It's Hey, can you give me a second?
358
00:17:41,527 --> 00:17:45,764
And I will remove that
because I do have standards.
359
00:17:45,864 --> 00:17:46,098
Yeah.
360
00:17:46,098 --> 00:17:51,270
And I think that goes
to a larger conversation which is worth
361
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:57,476
having someday about formality
or informality in the workplace.
362
00:17:57,543 --> 00:17:58,544
Right.
363
00:17:58,544 --> 00:18:02,581
I was working with 45 h.r.
364
00:18:02,581 --> 00:18:05,584
People at a client yesterday,
365
00:18:05,617 --> 00:18:08,253
and we were talking about
366
00:18:08,253 --> 00:18:14,193
what are the things that they're
dealing with and dress code
367
00:18:14,259 --> 00:18:19,331
and a appropriate and inappropriate
368
00:18:19,431 --> 00:18:21,733
clothing in the workplace
369
00:18:21,733 --> 00:18:24,603
has bloomed as a problem.
370
00:18:24,603 --> 00:18:27,406
Yeah, I've seen it in sorority meetings
sometimes, too.
371
00:18:27,406 --> 00:18:30,609
And i'm like
this is supposed to be business wear,
372
00:18:30,609 --> 00:18:33,612
and you have a denim skirt on.
373
00:18:33,745 --> 00:18:36,748
Like,
we would have set them home if it was
374
00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:40,252
when I was in, but it was like, Well,
we can't say that now.
375
00:18:40,352 --> 00:18:41,920
Yeah, it's interesting.
376
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,224
I just go back to what somebody told me,
just post-COVID
377
00:18:45,224 --> 00:18:51,130
when people were coming back
and she goes, They've gone feral.
378
00:18:51,196 --> 00:18:52,531
Right.
379
00:18:52,531 --> 00:18:57,636
Like there used to be
because the workplace
380
00:18:57,703 --> 00:19:00,239
was I mean, it was largely homogenous.
381
00:19:00,239 --> 00:19:03,642
But even if it wasn't homogenous
demographically,
382
00:19:03,709 --> 00:19:06,912
there were just codes
and the way things were done
383
00:19:06,912 --> 00:19:10,082
and they were the way
things have been done for 100 years.
384
00:19:10,082 --> 00:19:13,051
And you had work clothes
and you had plain clothes.
385
00:19:13,318 --> 00:19:14,186
Right, Right.
386
00:19:14,186 --> 00:19:15,354
It's like going to school.
387
00:19:15,354 --> 00:19:19,725
I had school clothes
and plain clothes. They weren't the same.
388
00:19:19,825 --> 00:19:22,261
And when we worked from
389
00:19:22,261 --> 00:19:26,431
home, the it wasn't just that you're home.
390
00:19:26,431 --> 00:19:28,534
You can wear whatever the heck you want,
391
00:19:28,534 --> 00:19:32,538
but the social pressure
about what you wore went down.
392
00:19:32,638 --> 00:19:35,641
So even now, men
393
00:19:35,641 --> 00:19:39,211
who wear suits to the office
rarely wear a tie.
394
00:19:39,278 --> 00:19:43,048
Yeah, like they'll wear a jacket,
button down shirt.
395
00:19:43,048 --> 00:19:44,783
I mean, they'll look.
They still look nice.
396
00:19:44,783 --> 00:19:50,322
But they're not wearing, you know,
the double Windsor at their throat.
397
00:19:50,422 --> 00:19:52,958
And I think that
398
00:19:52,958 --> 00:19:56,061
what that does and this gets back
to the Spider-Man paradox, right?
399
00:19:56,094 --> 00:19:59,231
With great power comes great
responsibility is
400
00:19:59,264 --> 00:20:03,001
just because you can dress a certain way
401
00:20:03,202 --> 00:20:07,105
or act a certain way
or get away with doing something
402
00:20:07,172 --> 00:20:10,609
online that you can't or wouldn't
403
00:20:10,609 --> 00:20:14,780
do in the office doesn't mean you should.
404
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:15,414
Right.
405
00:20:15,414 --> 00:20:19,418
I mean, there's still a level of respect,
both for yourself and for whomever
406
00:20:19,418 --> 00:20:20,619
you're on the call with.
407
00:20:20,619 --> 00:20:24,089
And, you know, yes,
you are a grown person.
408
00:20:24,122 --> 00:20:27,192
Yes. You can make your own choices.
409
00:20:27,259 --> 00:20:30,262
You know, it's the whole thing about
do you get dressed
410
00:20:30,262 --> 00:20:34,099
in work,
appropriate attire in the morning.
411
00:20:34,199 --> 00:20:34,766
Right.
412
00:20:34,766 --> 00:20:37,402
Even when nobody's
going to see you. Right.
413
00:20:37,402 --> 00:20:41,373
There is evidence psychologically
that it affects how you think
414
00:20:41,373 --> 00:20:44,576
and how you work
in your level of professionalism.
415
00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:49,081
And there are plenty of people who say,
shut up, old man, my onesie is fine
416
00:20:49,081 --> 00:20:54,286
and it doesn't affect the outcome of my
417
00:20:54,386 --> 00:20:55,621
spreadsheet.
418
00:20:55,621 --> 00:20:55,921
Right.
419
00:20:55,921 --> 00:20:58,924
Like, I know some people
that they feel like even when they're
420
00:20:58,924 --> 00:21:03,929
working from home, I'm going to wear shoes
because for them, like even just having,
421
00:21:04,062 --> 00:21:07,966
you know, whatever they're wearing,
having shoes is the thing that helps them
422
00:21:08,066 --> 00:21:10,669
be productive.
I am not one of those people.
423
00:21:10,669 --> 00:21:13,672
I will admit I'm barefoot right now
and have a blanket on my lap,
424
00:21:13,805 --> 00:21:17,843
but I'm still appropriately dressed.
425
00:21:17,943 --> 00:21:19,611
And so senior notes.
426
00:21:19,611 --> 00:21:23,382
Send your notes to Wilma Flintstone here.
427
00:21:23,448 --> 00:21:24,182
Right.
428
00:21:24,182 --> 00:21:27,019
But like I would have been even
without this podcast,
429
00:21:27,019 --> 00:21:30,055
because that's just I'm just a.
430
00:21:30,122 --> 00:21:31,523
From the house down.
431
00:21:31,523 --> 00:21:35,027
It's the Wild West.
432
00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:38,697
You could do whatever you want
from the bellybutton up.
433
00:21:38,697 --> 00:21:42,634
You better look like you're working.
434
00:21:42,701 --> 00:21:43,402
A couple of things.
435
00:21:43,402 --> 00:21:47,572
We are way past time and we have had
an inordinate amount of fun, and
436
00:21:47,572 --> 00:21:52,944
I think there are some important things
to think about this right?
437
00:21:53,011 --> 00:21:55,747
Where do the generational differences?
438
00:21:55,747 --> 00:21:56,281
Right.
439
00:21:56,281 --> 00:22:00,719
If I'm going to coach somebody
about their appearance or their demeanor.
440
00:22:00,786 --> 00:22:04,289
Am I doing it
because it's a valid business reason?
441
00:22:04,323 --> 00:22:07,192
Am I doing it because I am an old man?
442
00:22:07,192 --> 00:22:09,928
Right? Right.
443
00:22:09,928 --> 00:22:14,833
That is a conversation worth having
444
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:17,436
when it's you and I talking.
445
00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:23,008
The level of formality is much lower
than when I'm talking to a client.
446
00:22:23,075 --> 00:22:25,944
And it should be right. Right.
447
00:22:25,944 --> 00:22:28,947
If you are inappropriately informal
448
00:22:29,047 --> 00:22:32,050
in a important business meeting.
449
00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:35,053
Right. The VP is on the call.
450
00:22:35,153 --> 00:22:35,887
Yeah.
451
00:22:35,887 --> 00:22:42,794
Your AC DC T-shirt
may not be the best choice,
452
00:22:42,894 --> 00:22:44,863
but again, it's incumbent on us.
453
00:22:44,863 --> 00:22:46,264
Yes, the rules are changing.
454
00:22:46,264 --> 00:22:49,267
Yes, they are more flexible
than they ever were.
455
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:53,839
And what is the minimum
professional standard
456
00:22:53,972 --> 00:22:58,310
in your industry, on your team,
in your organization?
457
00:22:58,410 --> 00:22:59,177
Absolutely.
458
00:22:59,177 --> 00:23:01,680
And those are the things
we need to think about.
459
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,851
Look at me wrapping all this up,
trying real hard to sound like
460
00:23:05,851 --> 00:23:07,552
we've had a professional discussion
461
00:23:07,552 --> 00:23:13,125
instead of venting,
which we've largely been discussed.
462
00:23:13,225 --> 00:23:15,627
And that being said,
if you would like to know how to be
463
00:23:15,627 --> 00:23:19,531
more professional in your meetings
and remote work, you can check out
464
00:23:19,531 --> 00:23:22,534
our long distance
leadership series at Kevin Ikenberry, dot
465
00:23:22,534 --> 00:23:25,537
com slash LDL s.
466
00:23:25,771 --> 00:23:27,539
Thank you for listening
to the long work life
467
00:23:27,539 --> 00:23:30,075
for shownotes
transcripts and other resources.
468
00:23:30,075 --> 00:23:32,611
Make sure to visit long distance
work dot com.
469
00:23:32,611 --> 00:23:34,579
If you haven't yet,
subscribe to the podcast
470
00:23:34,579 --> 00:23:37,149
so you won't miss any future episodes.
471
00:23:37,149 --> 00:23:39,518
And while you're there,
be sure to like in review.
472
00:23:39,518 --> 00:23:42,154
This helps us know what you love
about our show.
473
00:23:42,154 --> 00:23:45,857
Feel free to contact us via email or
LinkedIn with the links in our show notes
474
00:23:45,957 --> 00:23:49,227
and let us know you listen to this episode
or even suggest topic for Wayne
475
00:23:49,227 --> 00:23:51,663
and I to tackle any future episodes
we would love.
476
00:23:51,663 --> 00:23:52,497
And tell us.
477
00:23:52,497 --> 00:23:55,801
Tell us your meeting. Yes. Are we right?
478
00:23:55,801 --> 00:23:56,835
Are we wrong?
479
00:23:56,835 --> 00:24:01,907
Am I a grungy, grumpy old man
yelling at clouds, or do I have a point?
480
00:24:02,007 --> 00:24:03,175
Am I just an old soul?
481
00:24:03,175 --> 00:24:06,378
Don't know how to act
at 32 inches your shoes.
482
00:24:06,411 --> 00:24:07,913
Darn it.
483
00:24:08,013 --> 00:24:08,513
I might slip.
484
00:24:08,513 --> 00:24:10,382
Or sometimes
485
00:24:10,382 --> 00:24:12,083
when my feet are cool,
486
00:24:12,083 --> 00:24:14,352
thick you for joining us, everybody.
487
00:24:14,352 --> 00:24:16,855
And as Wayne likes to say,
don't let the weasels get you down.
