High Level Conversations Replay: Dr. Bettina Love

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Speaker 1: Levels to This is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:17
Speaker 2: Hey, what's going on? Everybody? It's your girl to Rica passa brasby.
00:00:20
Speaker 3: What's up, y'all? It's your girl Cheryl.
00:00:22
Speaker 2: Swoops And this is the Levels to this.
00:00:25
Speaker 4: This is the show where we talk about the levels to the ship that women go through. And first of all, I know life must be good in Cheryl's lane because I can hear the birds chirping in the background.
00:00:36
Speaker 2: It sounds so peaceful. So spring.
00:00:40
Speaker 3: Okay, So here's the Can you really hear them?
00:00:44
Speaker 5: Yes?
00:00:45
Speaker 4: And I don't want it to change so peaceful it's calling it's spring.
00:00:48
Speaker 1: So since you brought it up, let me just tell you it's actually that's funny. We ordered some some baby chicks because our you know, we got chickens that lay eggs, and the ones we've had, we've had them for five years and they're getting older and they're like, I can't push no more eggs out. So we ordered some more and they just came in like yesterday, and I wanted to see them.
00:01:20
Speaker 3: That's what you're hearing. So if it gets.
00:01:23
Speaker 5: Baby, no, it's not.
00:01:25
Speaker 4: I actually thought it was like, and granted, I know chickens are birds, so birds are shirking. But I thought it was like, you know, like some bird. It's probably a mix. It's probably my baby chicks plus the birds. Because I am sitting here in my she shed with the door open because it's gorgeous. It's beautiful.
00:01:45
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I need a little sunlight in my life today, tea.
00:01:50
Speaker 4: I love that. I really do love that. I need some sunlight in my life too.
00:01:54
Speaker 3: What's up with you? I see them? I see the Detroit Is that the Detroit Pistons? I say, yes, well.
00:02:04
Speaker 2: Maybe, I mean listen.
00:02:05
Speaker 4: All I know is these analysts are getting on my last ass nerves again with their takes about my Pistons. I was watching first take this morning. I don't even know why I was watching first take. Now, I actually think I was watching Get Up, and so.
00:02:19
Speaker 5: First take was just on.
00:02:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it just came on, that's what it was.
00:02:24
Speaker 4: And they started talking about the playoffs and it got to the Pistons, and so I paused because, like any fan, when you start talking about my team. I need to see what you're saying now. Stephen and made a great point. Do you shake Cornett lover? She made a great point. Do you here come fucking Chris Russo talking about all the business?
00:02:42
Speaker 5: I don't believe them. They're not a good team. I mean, you haven't.
00:02:46
Speaker 2: Played anybody, You never played anybody.
00:02:48
Speaker 5: We've been We've been the best team in the dm NBA.
00:02:52
Speaker 4: We've been the best team in the ACE for ninety percent of the damn season.
00:02:56
Speaker 5: You really want to piss.
00:02:57
Speaker 2: Me off this morning?
00:02:58
Speaker 1: Just hater, hater, Hey, and it's all right. So what did he say about your squad?
00:03:07
Speaker 3: Girl?
00:03:07
Speaker 5: What are you gonna say?
00:03:08
Speaker 2: He talked about we're not a good team.
00:03:10
Speaker 4: If we don't make it to the conference, if we don't make it to the finals, then our whole entire season is a failure. Keep in mind, the Pistons ain't been shipping. I don't know how long do you hear me? No, that's not I say it because I'm a fan.
00:03:22
Speaker 2: I'm a fan.
00:03:23
Speaker 3: That's fact.
00:03:23
Speaker 5: We ain't been shitting. No, no, how long.
00:03:25
Speaker 2: Two years ago, we was on the twenty eight game, went a losing streak.
00:03:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember that. That wasn't that long ago.
00:03:31
Speaker 4: Two years ago, and just last year we went to the playoffs, played the Knicks, young team, inexperience. You do young inexperienced shifts, you come back the next year and be the number one team, And now the goalpost is moving. Not win a playoff series. Then he says, this is the one. This is the one, and then I'm doing but this was the one.
00:03:51
Speaker 5: This was the one where I was like, I'm.
00:03:52
Speaker 2: About to have to see because you're out here losing your damn mind. He says, they.
00:03:56
Speaker 4: Might get past the first round and then they might get PA. That's the second round was at Cleveland or whomever. But it's the Boston Knicks series. You gotta win three series, okay. So I'm counting, and I'm like, okay, if you get past the first round, that's one. You get past the second round, okay, this is the third round. That's the conference finals. There are teams that are begging to get to a conference finals.
00:04:19
Speaker 5: Begging, wishing.
00:04:23
Speaker 3: All of that.
00:04:23
Speaker 2: Chris Russel.
00:04:25
Speaker 4: Chris Russel, I got a message for l ass, and I'm dropping it on Twitter very soon, and I need you to come see me because you're losing your mind.
00:04:34
Speaker 3: Can you tag me? I need to make sure it makes this tag.
00:04:37
Speaker 2: Me because this is this is crazy. This is crazy.
00:04:40
Speaker 4: This is this is why people need to be mindful of who the hell they have talking about these sports, because this ship is quiet.
00:04:46
Speaker 5: But anyway, other than that, I'm doing fantastic good cheers.
00:04:51
Speaker 3: I see you sipping on a coffee too.
00:04:54
Speaker 2: I am. I would say who it is, but I feel like they need to pay us for me to.
00:04:57
Speaker 4: Actually, I'm never saying I'll tell you I who my mine is straight from my kitchen period. Yes, yes, I ran out and because we've been gone, you know, there's been a double empty Double A.
00:05:12
Speaker 2: Then there was the WNBA.
00:05:13
Speaker 4: Draft, and then we had a really cool live show that we can wait for you all to hear. But I haven't been home, so I ran out of coffee and it just didn't make sense to buy any.
00:05:26
Speaker 2: And now we're leaving again. My husband and I are celebrating.
00:05:29
Speaker 1: NIS Happy anniversary booth.
00:05:34
Speaker 2: Thank you.
00:05:35
Speaker 1: We got to hit topic. But let me just say this because I feel like, if you like marriages, today are like people just don't really invest in them like back in the old days. Right, So if the fact that you're celebrating ten years of marriage, Like that is something. If I have had a shot, I would say cheers, but I'm gonna give you cheers with my coffee. Cheers to you, period, because marriages are hard relationships.
00:06:09
Speaker 3: You're hard.
00:06:11
Speaker 1: Very, I'm so happy for you, and uh, very, Can I ask what your anniversary plans are?
00:06:18
Speaker 5: Yes?
00:06:19
Speaker 4: So we are on a plane to Las Vegas in several hours, which is kind of which is kind of bittersweet because when we first got married, our honeymoon was in Vegas, and so here it is, ten years later, we're celebrating in Vegas.
00:06:32
Speaker 2: Now, y'all know, I'm gonn always keep it real with the people.
00:06:35
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:06:37
Speaker 4: The truth is I was going to Vegas anyway because it was WrestleMania. So I was like, oh, well, since I'm already gone, we might as well make this ship.
00:06:47
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, okay, we just gonna We're just gonna make it.
00:06:52
Speaker 2: We're gonna make some shit happen.
00:06:57
Speaker 3: Is Greg into WrestleMania.
00:07:00
Speaker 5: Not like me?
00:07:01
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no no no.
00:07:03
Speaker 4: He It's like one of those things where if you ask someone who doesn't like football, do you want to go to the Super Bowl?
00:07:08
Speaker 5: Me?
00:07:09
Speaker 4: See what I'm saying like, do you want to you want to go to Super Bowl Shirl? But you're gonna say, nah, I don't really like football. You're gonna say, hell, yeah, I'm going to the super Bowl.
00:07:18
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yes, if you're.
00:07:20
Speaker 1: If you ask me if I want to you want to go watch a football game and be.
00:07:23
Speaker 3: Like no, but do you want to go to Super Bowl?
00:07:27
Speaker 5: Win? When winning with see, you're a hundred persons. That's what this is. WrestleMania is the super Bowl of wrestling.
00:07:35
Speaker 4: So if someone says do you want to go to WrestleMania, anybody with good sense is gonna be like, yeah, I want to go to Restmania.
00:07:42
Speaker 2: So that's what this is. It's gonna be me.
00:07:44
Speaker 4: I have my belts, I have my clu, I have a T shirt for every everything, I have everything.
00:07:49
Speaker 3: I am ready here for you. But don't forget it's your anniversary booth.
00:07:55
Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah that'so yeah yeah yeah.
00:07:58
Speaker 2: I mean that's today.
00:08:00
Speaker 5: Today.
00:08:01
Speaker 4: You gotta part of tomorrow is today and part of tomorrow you gotta today. Have him a little bit of time, just a little bit today, just in part of tomorrow. Okay, just a little bit today, part of tomorrow.
00:08:14
Speaker 6: But Saturday, it's almost well anyway, we are, yeah, we are excited about it, just the same way we're excited about today's show.
00:08:26
Speaker 4: And guys, we have such a great guest on today's show. I mean when I tell you, we are going to get into all of it, because you know, Sherilyn and I we stay on top of our shit when it comes to social justice, when it comes to inequalities, when it comes to just having pride and who we are as black women, black Americans and what people be trying to do to our people. We don't like that shit, and we speak on that shit. And today we have someone who also understands the crisis that we are often faced as Black Americans. And so I'm excited about having doctor Bettina Love, who is incredible, incredible. So, without further ado, because I know y'all are like, dang, how long you're gonna hyper reupt without further ado, let's go ahead and take this thing to the next level. I know, I know, I know, Please don't fight me, because every single week I say the same thing that we have such a great guess that I'm so excited to converse with them. But I promise, I say it because I mean it every single week and this week is no different.
00:09:57
Speaker 5: Man.
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Speaker 4: This week we have the one and only, the renowned doctor Betina Love joining us this week. I mean, this woman is highly sought after public speaker.
00:10:08
Speaker 5: Covering a wide range of topics.
00:10:11
Speaker 4: From abolitionist teachings, anti racism, hip hop ed you name it. This one right here, this one right here is going to shut it down. And so I am incredibly excited to have doctor Love joining us today.
00:10:23
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming, Oh.
00:10:25
Speaker 7: Thank you for having me. I'm big fans of the show. I'm a big women's.
00:10:28
Speaker 5: Basketball fanatic, so this is just my this is just an amazing place to be.
00:10:33
Speaker 7: So thank you so much for having me, and thank you for doing what you do and bringing voices to so many issues that need to be talked about.
00:10:41
Speaker 5: So thank you for what you do.
00:10:42
Speaker 4: I just I got to get my little thank you in their teeth because that, like that doesn't do it any you don't know, but like you said, because I want to hop into the conversation, doctor Love, thank you for being here.
00:10:57
Speaker 1: I just I'm super excited to have you. I'm even more excited to have this, just this conversation with you, and thank you for what you do. We need more doctor loves out there.
00:11:10
Speaker 4: Oh chah, seriously, seriously, I mean, Cheryl and I are no stranger from having the conversation about you know, first of all, young women and girls, how they're impacted by almost any and everything that's happening in our world today. But how our political climate, how our social justice climate, how our educational climate, how all of that affects our young women and girls, and how not enough people are talking about it. And so we number one, appreciate the fact that you are someone who continually talks about it and brings attention to it.
00:11:42
Speaker 5: But let's start there, right because everywhere you look.
00:11:46
Speaker 2: People talking about reform.
00:11:48
Speaker 5: We reform in this, we reform in.
00:11:51
Speaker 4: That, blah blah blah blah blah blah. Like what does that actually mean? And why do you think reform is just maybe not the right word for what it is that we're really trying to change.
00:12:03
Speaker 5: Listen, you, let's go.
00:12:06
Speaker 8: So.
00:12:08
Speaker 5: We told you you did? You did? You did?
00:12:11
Speaker 7: So let me try and give my excitement down so I can actually form a form of the sentence.
00:12:17
Speaker 5: I really love this question because I think we hear.
00:12:19
Speaker 7: The word reform in society and we automatically think that's going to solve our problems.
00:12:23
Speaker 5: We automatically think that.
00:12:24
Speaker 7: The people who are designing the reform have their best intentions in mind for black and brown, indigenous folks, for women. So you hear crime reform, education reform, warfare reform, immigration, like, you're all this reform.
00:12:38
Speaker 5: And what I want.
00:12:38
Speaker 7: People to know is that when you hear the word reform, you should be thinking a few things greed, criminality, and that the very people that have your interests at heart, that have your interest in mind, do not have your interest in mind. That they're going to use reform as a way to siphon off a few pieces of justice, the crumbs of justice. But the actual structure and system and apparatus that is continually perpetually harming people is going to stay the same. It's going to stay the same. And so right here we have we can look at education.
00:13:13
Speaker 5: We have.
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Speaker 7: Decades of education reform and we've seen nothing but harm.
00:13:19
Speaker 5: And we've seen them say hey.
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Speaker 7: Look here's a few shining examples of what we've done.
00:13:24
Speaker 5: Don't look at all the ten.
00:13:25
Speaker 7: Thousand examples of folks that we have harmed, just look at the shining examples. We're talking right now about immigration reform. We're putting people in concentration camps. Yeah, we're snatching people off the streets and calling it reform.
00:13:38
Speaker 5: So whenever you hear the word.
00:13:39
Speaker 7: Reform, that should be a tell tale side that there is money involved, there is corruption involved, and there's going to be the crumbs of justice given to us, and they're going to call it justice and couch it under reform.
00:13:53
Speaker 4: I feel like saying like we should like the criminality issue, that part of it just kind of goes in to something that you've previously said, where you said we're not in a crisis, we're in a continuation. And so I would love to know what you think people understand or that you wish more people understood about the difference between those two.
00:14:15
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, Nicole Henna Jones says it best. She's one of my favorite writers, and she says that, you know, America is a place of regression. We are not a country of progress. We are a country of progression of regression. And when you understand that, you understand how America works. You understand that criminality and oppression and greed and capitalism and sexism and patriarchy. Like we say these big words, but they mean things. They mean things, they mean things, and they're really the crux, the basis, the foundation of America. And so we say this is a continuation, we mean a continuation. There's never been a pause. Now, there's been moments of great, great triumph that black folks and Latinx folks and Indigenous folks and women and queer folks.
00:15:04
Speaker 5: There's been a moments of great triumph.
00:15:06
Speaker 7: And I don't ever want to downplay those moments, but always know those moments of great triumph come at a cost. There's a cost to racial progress in this country. There is a cost to queer progress in this country. There's a cost to women progress in this country. So it is a continuation. And when that progress happens, you better believe that they are retooling. So never think that it's not going to be pushed back. So when we take ten steps forward, you better believe somebody's trying to take those ten and another two. So it's always a continuation. And you know that's why, you know the old black folks say it's about the struggle. It's always about the struggle. And we got to understand that we are in a moment of struggle. We are in a moment of regression. And I know it feels it doesn't feel good. It's uneasy, and it's fearful. It makes you, it makes you want to retreat, It makes you want anxiety. It treats so much in their body, but all the things. But we have to understand that those emotions are real. Those emotions should be talked about, we should we shouldn't try to downplay those emotions. But we also got to understand that there's also the emotion of resistance. There's also the moment the emotion of great joy. There's also the emotions of love and kindness that we also have to tap into to do the work that we need to make this moment of regression not as long as it could be.
00:16:38
Speaker 3: Woo shot tey.
00:16:39
Speaker 1: I could just sit here and listen, I really could, because you, I mean, God, you just said so much in all of that.
00:16:50
Speaker 3: So when you say we're not in.
00:16:51
Speaker 1: A crisis, right, we're in a continuation like so many people want to say, like racism doesn't exist anymore, like racism is gone. And when I hear that, I think about what you just said to me. It's always been here. Yeah, it is a continuation when when you look at the climate of our country right now. I don't know if there's one answer to this, but how did we get here?
00:17:24
Speaker 7: If I had to say one thing, like how do we get here? I would I would say, and this is to be like a college professor, like I really like put on that college.
00:17:33
Speaker 5: Professor hat and give a big term.
00:17:34
Speaker 7: But there is a term that explains this, and that's called racial capitalism.
00:17:40
Speaker 5: And racial capitalism is it's very easy to define.
00:17:43
Speaker 7: It says that the blacker you are, the more you would be oppressed, and the less they will pay you for wages if you get wages. That's that's the crooks of like racial capitalism, that this capitalism is also racial. And so when you look through society, you don't have enslavement without land.
00:18:04
Speaker 5: So that's why black folks are history.
00:18:09
Speaker 7: Our justices has to be deeply tied to indigenous folks because you need two things to enslave folks.
00:18:16
Speaker 5: You need the bodies and you need the land.
00:18:18
Speaker 7: Yeah, so we were the bodies and they and we and this country took day land.
00:18:23
Speaker 5: So we are we are tied together in a particular type of way.
00:18:26
Speaker 7: Now, from that moment, they started the idea of creating whiteness and the idea of racial capitalism, which has always been around that says that the folks who are the darkest are going to do this labor, and they're going to do it for free, and if we ever have to pay them, they're going to get the least.
00:18:44
Speaker 3: Can I interrupt you.
00:18:47
Speaker 5: Just because.
00:18:49
Speaker 1: Yes, all of those things. So a couple of years ago, I went to the Gambia, So I went to.
00:19:02
Speaker 3: Kuta Kinte Island.
00:19:04
Speaker 1: I did all of those things, and I had a question for the guy that was doing the tour. And to some it may be a simple question, but to me, to your point right to say that the darkest ones will be the ones that will do the labor, they'll make the leaves.
00:19:21
Speaker 4: That's if they even get paid. Who died and made you or made them?
00:19:28
Speaker 1: God to say you are better than the dark skinned people, like, I know you don't know that answer, but you might because you're not lost.
00:19:41
Speaker 7: I'm just saying, you know, it's fascinating. We could go to the Egyptian I mean, we could go throughout history and I'm not quite sure, Like I'm not quite sure. You know, Ibram Kendy has a really good book called Stand from Beginning where he tried, you know, like that talks about racism from the very beginning and what it was like who.
00:20:01
Speaker 5: But I don't know how this idea that the darker.
00:20:05
Speaker 7: Folks would become the folks who would be enslaved, right, But what I do know is that the darker folks have a type of love and joy and resilience and community, way like I do know that globally, like globally, I know that black folks.
00:20:26
Speaker 5: And when I say black folks, I mean the diaspora, Yes, the diaspora. I don't you know.
00:20:32
Speaker 7: I always want to be clear that when you look at the world from the space, there are no borders, there's no borders. It's like there's continence, but there's no borders.
00:20:45
Speaker 5: There's no borders. Chopping up the United States from Mexico, like, there's no borders.
00:20:48
Speaker 7: So when I say black, I mean like globally black, and globally black folks just seem to have a breath of humanity, a breath of love, a breath of digness that just invigorates me to no point of return, Like I'm just I wake up every day, I look at my skin, and I just so happy to be black.
00:21:10
Speaker 2: I know that's right.
00:21:11
Speaker 5: I would be black in every life. It's there's in every lifetime.
00:21:17
Speaker 4: And I'm so glad that you put a global spin on that too, because my mother is her father is Dominican, her mother is black, and so well African American, and so I had a Latina upbringing in some ways. And what I find so interesting is that this whole colorism idea is not just American, like it exists everywhere you go to dr you go on the islands, you see all these beautiful, light skin Dominicans, they greeting you, they're doing all of this beautiful things. They make you feel beautiful and welcome, and then you see all the darker skin Dominicans are the ones that's your maids, they're your cooks, there's your cleaners. They're the ones that's kind of off in the back like they're Shanes. So it's not just like something that's here in the US. Is this idea of dark skinned being inferior.
00:22:11
Speaker 5: Or being less than.
00:22:12
Speaker 4: It's so globally ingrained in certain places that it's kind of ridiculous how we got here. But one thing you said, Doctor Love, is you mentioned about black joy and how that it exists, and it exists in different forms, and so in some of the work that you've done, you've talked about the difference between black joy as resistance and black joy as refusal. Can you just kind of walk us through like that distinction and why that matters?
00:22:41
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, you know, I always want to lift up black scholars.
00:22:44
Speaker 7: So you know, when I'm talking about black joy, black resistance, I'm talking about the work of Lizzie Stewart, I'm talking about the work of Kelly Carter Jackson, black women who've written about this and just give me the lens and the language to talk about it. You know, black joy I feel as black people, you know, Kelly Lecarda Jackson says, black joy is love, it is creativity, but it's also the complete, the complete idea that black folks are capable, Like don't just love me, don't just celebrate me, but you gotta have the idea that black folks are capable and have the capacity, the intellectual capacity, the spiritual capacity, the financial like we have the capacity. That's also black joy and black joy, she says. She says, white folks are happy. Black folks have joys. And that's something I hold on to because happiness things, happiness can come and go. You gotta have a joy that no matter what happens, no matter what is before you, you're gonna be.
00:23:47
Speaker 5: All right, baby. And that you know.
00:23:50
Speaker 7: And the old heads, the old marbles, they you're gonna be all right. And that's a joy. That's a belief that we have. And it is spiritual, it is holy, it is beauty fool and that is black joy.
00:24:01
Speaker 5: It was a belief in black people.
00:24:03
Speaker 7: And then you see it, right, you know when black take I say, when black folks play spades, there is no white folks come now, ain't nobody. We're not at the We're not at the table. Worry about no white folks. The only Trump I.
00:24:15
Speaker 4: Got in my head, and YO and im and me and I'm thinking, right, I'm on that only Trump we like, the only the only, the only Trump.
00:24:30
Speaker 5: I'd be that big joker is what I'm saying, right.
00:24:34
Speaker 4: You know, right?
00:24:36
Speaker 5: Why do black people? Why do we run when we laugh?
00:24:39
Speaker 3: I don't know where are we going? Why where we going?
00:24:45
Speaker 5: Why does the food get good? We just.
00:24:48
Speaker 7: Did we get up with the plate we up with the plate, sit out with the plate.
00:24:53
Speaker 3: Let me where you go, Let me move a ride my plate.
00:24:58
Speaker 1: Right, let me come, let me how when I'm in Wow, that's so true.
00:25:03
Speaker 7: These are these are such joyous moments. And when we are in that zone, that black joy zone. Baby, this this thing right here doesn't exist, it doesn't ex and that is the beauty of black joy when we can find those moments what Bell Hooks would call a home place of refuge of love, where you are at a point that blackness is so in front of your life on the side, in the front, the back, everything, and it's moments, but it's not fleeting. You know you're gonna get it again. Yeah, you know when you get back with your family, you're gonna get it again.
00:25:41
Speaker 5: You know, after reunion, you're gonna get it again. That's why it's start a homecoming. M come on now, homecoming. You don't miss right, because you want that joy. You don't miss wine. I don't miss one right.
00:25:56
Speaker 7: It's a black resistance place out on that because you need black joy for black resistance. Because back to your initial question, the struggle continues. So I know that the struggle is continuous, and I know that I need that joy to replenish. Then I can go in and I can resist with that time, with that knowing that my resistance is not my full life. I don't believe that my creator put me here to fight racism.
00:26:23
Speaker 5: That's racism. My God ain't racist. Say that again, My God ain't racist.
00:26:27
Speaker 7: You think my God was, Like, you know what, I would put you down here to fight racism for your whole life, Like, that's what I want you to go ahead and do. No, no, no, We're here to love then, to find joy and to eat.
00:26:37
Speaker 5: Good food in the traveler world.
00:26:38
Speaker 7: We're here, and so many things keep us from doing that, like racism, like capitalism.
00:26:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's such a good point, Scherl because you know what I think about that she just said is like when people are trying to get under your skin, when people are trying to bomb even it's's just even in everyday life, right when when you walk in to work, you walk into you know, your office or your classroom or for us a game or whoever, and people want to get under your skin, anyone to bother you. The way that you keep smiling, the way that you keep a positive attitude, it urts their nerves because they're not doing enough to make you upset.
00:27:19
Speaker 5: It's not doing enough to piss you off.
00:27:22
Speaker 4: It's it's it's not the oppressor is upset at the fact that they are unable to steal that joy, unable to steal that thing.
00:27:31
Speaker 2: That still makes you smile. So I really love, I really do love and enjoy that concept.
00:27:35
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:27:36
Speaker 5: Oh thank you.
00:27:37
Speaker 7: It's just like you know when when it's like four or five black folks just huddle up, laughing what.
00:27:40
Speaker 5: You're doing, Oh, sitting here, sit here, We just have time.
00:27:47
Speaker 3: No, that's it.
00:27:48
Speaker 5: No, just sit here, that's it.
00:27:50
Speaker 7: Or you know black women walk by smelling good, looking, good sundress okay dress.
00:27:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. Okay dress Okay, you don't we have.
00:28:02
Speaker 1: Understood what's understood.
00:28:05
Speaker 5: Don't have to be staying need to be explained that.
00:28:10
Speaker 1: Wow?
00:28:11
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yes.
00:28:13
Speaker 4: You know what that reminds me of when when you're on social media and people have like these little these little acronyms, they'll be like, you know when you see when you see this, you know, and it's like we just instantly look at the let all we need is the first word, and we like we know that the whole thing. You know that is you know that I saw one today, but I mean, and it plays to your point. I saw one today that was like black people when you're training black people, when you're training somebody, and it was all the letters, and the letters basically spelled out, this ain't how it's supposed to be done, but this is hot when.
00:28:49
Speaker 5: We do right.
00:28:50
Speaker 4: And it was the fact that so many people instantly understood.
00:28:54
Speaker 5: What that because it didn't need to be explained.
00:28:56
Speaker 2: We are, like we are the culture.
00:28:58
Speaker 5: We are generationally generationally like my hands know you got McDonald's money. Do you got McDonald's money.
00:29:08
Speaker 7: That's that's generationally. There's just things that we passed out and it's beautiful. It's beautiful, just like you know you pay your bill on your phone.
00:29:18
Speaker 5: I'm taking a screenshot.
00:29:19
Speaker 7: We don't trust nobody because what you want to.
00:29:23
Speaker 5: Go through.
00:29:25
Speaker 2: Through.
00:29:26
Speaker 5: But think about why we do what we do right.
00:29:30
Speaker 7: We have been bamboozom hood weed and let us straight throughout throughout centuries.
00:29:36
Speaker 5: So now we're here saying.
00:29:37
Speaker 7: Oh, we got to have receipts for everything everything. So also I want us to under to talk about even these things that we do that are that are deeply in blackness.
00:29:48
Speaker 5: It's also some of our survival students, because we have.
00:29:52
Speaker 7: To be able to survive in this place. So we take that receipt because we know they always playing games, they playing games everythingle We don't want to put all our money in the bank because they're playing games they played.
00:30:03
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I know the history of what they have done.
00:30:07
Speaker 7: Right, black folks don't want to go to the hospital because we know what's going to happen to us.
00:30:11
Speaker 5: We know the history untunately.
00:30:13
Speaker 7: So some of these things, yes, some of these things are such survival skills of trying to endure generationally anti blackness and white supremacy.
00:30:27
Speaker 3: Listen there the tea.
00:30:28
Speaker 1: There's so much we could get into, and I got I got questions after questions, but I want to I want to stay on this topic a little bit. And Tea and I have these conversations a lot. So my first question, but I want you to answer. My first question is do you ever think we will have a black female president?
00:30:57
Speaker 3: That's my first question.
00:30:58
Speaker 1: And I asked that because when I look at you know, Kamala Harrison, people couldn't say whatever it is they want to say about her. I always felt like I don't really care who is running against her. America's never going to allow a black woman to be in charge, right. And then the second person I think about is Jasmine Crockett, right, who t and I had her on the show. Talking about Jasmine, I just I think a lot of it goes back to everything that you just said earlier. And when I look at this country, America and what it represents, especially right now, do you think we will in our lifetime ever see that happen.
00:31:47
Speaker 7: Sure, that's an amazing question. It's so so hard to answer. I would say that we in our lifetime. I would say at the end of our lifetime, at the fine end of our lifetime. I think I think it's going to happen. But I want to I really do, Like there had to be Jesse Jackson's there. There has to be, Like Barack was not the first black man to run for.
00:32:23
Speaker 5: President, not to run. No, Kamma Kamala was not the.
00:32:27
Speaker 7: First black woman, right right, talking about So it takes many it takes multiple iterations of this thing, and so it probably will take another black woman maybe to lose.
00:32:41
Speaker 5: Right.
00:32:42
Speaker 7: I'm in Georgia, I'm a Stacey Abrams, but.
00:32:48
Speaker 5: I think she is.
00:32:49
Speaker 7: One of the most intellectually, rigorous, thoughtful kind people. I was her neighbor for five years, by god, and they just I mean, they just took it from her. So I think there it has to be, and it's sad to say it has to be test cases. We have to keep learning from our losses, as as as women, as black people, as people of color, we had to learn from our losses. And so the next candidate right has to come around and has to take some of the things that Kamala did well and make sure she's not right, taking up some of the things Kamala didn't do well, and each iteration, we will get something better.
00:33:33
Speaker 5: But I think we're also moving in.
00:33:35
Speaker 7: This country towards a very progressive country, and that's why they're fighting so damn hard to keep it the way it is. They know progressivism is on its way.
00:33:49
Speaker 5: Right. I'm a New Yorker by heart. I grew up in upstate.
00:33:53
Speaker 7: Mundannie Mandanni Mandana Madonnie statement right, and he's a breath of fresh air.
00:33:59
Speaker 5: Jasmine crime. It's a breath of fresh air.
00:34:01
Speaker 7: So it's happening, and it's not going to happen as fast as we would like, and.
00:34:06
Speaker 5: That's where they're retooling.
00:34:09
Speaker 7: That's where they're they're going to retool.
00:34:13
Speaker 5: But but I do think it's going to happen. I'm hopeful. But if this country wants actual justice, it's gonna have to be through a black woman.
00:34:26
Speaker 7: So we're also got to say, like, we're a black woman, we're a black woman is elected.
00:34:32
Speaker 5: That means there has been a spiritual.
00:34:39
Speaker 7: Yeah, and so we we we we have to get on a spiritual shift as well. So it's not just it's not just politics. That would mean that the spirit of this country, the ethos of this country, the who we are, has shifted in a way. And so that's the fertile ground that we have to lay for a black woman president.
00:34:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would, I would say that. I would.
00:35:01
Speaker 4: I believe wholeheartedly that we are going to see a female woman president in this country. But I think black women, which is very different, will probably be later later, later, later, later, looked much later on in life. And I'm forty one, so I'm thinking, well, towards the end.
00:35:22
Speaker 3: Of my smybe but I do I don't know, but I.
00:35:26
Speaker 5: Do see you ain't that much.
00:35:32
Speaker 3: I don't know.
00:35:33
Speaker 4: Well, I'm saying like I think, I but I understand the point that doctor Love is making because you know, even with you know, to to.
00:35:41
Speaker 2: Put that into basketball.
00:35:42
Speaker 4: You know, today, at the time of this recording, the CBA has just been signed, and that iteration looks very different than it did in twenty twenty, would look very different than what you all, you know, put.
00:35:54
Speaker 2: Together in ninety nine, ninety eight, you know what I mean.
00:35:56
Speaker 4: So every year and every time that we bring this back around, it's gonna get better. It's gonna evolve, and eventually we'll get there. And if we remember twenty sixteen, in that election, Hillary Clinton really should have won, for real, for real.
00:36:10
Speaker 5: But I could see this country.
00:36:12
Speaker 4: Leaning more towards a woman first and then a black woman. And I ain't say I agree with it, but I'm saying the way like this is structured, it is just because I feel like I just honestly feel like people are starting to kind of see where they fucked up.
00:36:31
Speaker 5: Well, here's the thing about it. I'll say this Trump is only bet women. That's it. That's it. He's only beat women, that's right, only this but this country.
00:36:39
Speaker 4: But these people, these people would rather see an eighty year old man get in office and do whatever than than a woman, no matter how capable.
00:36:48
Speaker 2: And that's why I mean the shift.
00:36:50
Speaker 5: I feel like the shift is going to come, and it will come.
00:36:53
Speaker 4: But I can absolutely imagine a white woman being president before a black woman.
00:36:57
Speaker 2: But I'm I could absolutely see But.
00:37:00
Speaker 1: He he's more than just an eighty year old man.
00:37:04
Speaker 2: I was talking about Joe Biden.
00:37:05
Speaker 4: Oh okay, because that's because that's who beat them, Joey eight years old.
00:37:11
Speaker 5: Will he be trying like that's w beat them?
00:37:13
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? And and it's cool.
00:37:16
Speaker 5: For Kamla to be vice president because she ain't running yet because you know.
00:37:19
Speaker 1: What, in their eyes, that is what I'm telling you to do.
00:37:24
Speaker 4: At least at least that was the thought process when she was elected. But in that same process, you know she ain't running. Shit was what we were doing when we when we were okay with her b M v P. And then when she's running for president, you want to bring up, well, you ain't do ship, Well she was vice president.
00:37:39
Speaker 5: What did you want her anyway? Conversation we needed to get into.
00:37:57
Speaker 4: So doctor love you, punt you publiicsh your book Punished for Dreaming, which is a New York Times bestseller, and in your work you talk about your generation, you talk about twenty five amazing Black Americans who lived through educational harm were punished just for dreaming, just for for seeing something, seeing something better, for dreaming and wanting something better. I really would love to know why you felt like this was the topic that was important to you to write about and to kind of share, you know, what went into the process of creating this piece.
00:38:33
Speaker 7: Oh, thank you for that question. You know that book is really really dear to my heart. So you know, I'm from upstate New York. I'm from Rochester, New York. And you know, a lot of New Yorkers don't know where the hell that is. But I'm from Canada.
00:38:43
Speaker 5: Basically, you undre where it snow a lot and shit sot right. Ten degrees don't mean shit right, right, So you know. And I went to a public high school. I went to vocational high school.
00:39:00
Speaker 7: And I started writing this book in my head when I was seventeen years old and I had no clue what would have meant to be a writer. I had no clue with educational policy meant. But I went to a huge, huge high school, vocational high school. We had an airplane inside of our high school. That's how big my high school was. And our freshman class was four hundred kids. So I walked in four hundred kids, and we were lave, We were rambunctious. We thought we knew everything, like we're fourteen years old, right, we're fourteen. My graduation day, we graduated about seventy five seventy five to eighty kids.
00:39:34
Speaker 5: Wow.
00:39:35
Speaker 7: And I remember walking across the stage thinking to myself.
00:39:39
Speaker 5: Where did that already go?
00:39:40
Speaker 7: It was lit, and that just was a burning question. And I went off on a I went to college on a basketball scholarship. I probably wouldn't have went without a basketball scholarship. I went to University of Pittsburgh, and I just got interested in trying to understand what happened to my generation, Like what happened to us? How do you explain that? How do you explain three hundred kids just gone? And I wanted to try to figure out And I knew it was policy.
00:40:10
Speaker 5: I knew nothing was wrong with us. Yeah, I knew nothing.
00:40:13
Speaker 7: I knew that my classmates were smart, I knew that they were loving.
00:40:20
Speaker 5: I knew that we were kids, and we made mistakes. I knew that.
00:40:23
Speaker 7: But I didn't understand where we all went, and I knew that my high school in upstate Europe couldn't have been an anomaly. So I wanted to try to understand that. That's why I got a PAHD and educational policy. That's why I've been yearning to write this book, because I wanted to try to use policy to understand what happened to us as a generation of folks. So when you think about your schooling, right when you went to school, there was no such thing as charter schools.
00:40:49
Speaker 5: Your grandma don't know nothing about. No charter schools. When you went to.
00:40:52
Speaker 7: School, there was no lottery for you to get into the school that you wanted to get.
00:40:56
Speaker 5: There was no high stake standardized testing.
00:40:58
Speaker 7: You didn't have to take a test to see if you're going to go to that grade to that grade.
00:41:03
Speaker 5: When you went to school, there was no cops in your school. There was no metal detectors. I had cops in mind, but I'm from Detroit.
00:41:13
Speaker 2: I'm from a different.
00:41:17
Speaker 5: But like, all right, that that, but you're but you're right on the edge of them. I'm on the edge, right.
00:41:22
Speaker 7: But our grandmothers and grand like, they didn't have all they went to school, got their lesson.
00:41:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, got the less and so this is they got that lesson.
00:41:31
Speaker 2: And so this is entirely.
00:41:35
Speaker 7: New system, but based on old logic, and that is that black folks are criminal, black folks can't be trusted, and that black folks are not worth in education. And if that is what you believe about a certain group of people, then you would create educational policy that reflects your beliefs. So when you look at schools, what schools are dilapidated, what schools need new books?
00:41:59
Speaker 5: What school need new all right?
00:42:01
Speaker 7: What schools have metal detectors, what schools have police in them? What schools had dogs in them? There was a school in Chicago that had an actual booking station inside of.
00:42:10
Speaker 5: The That's crazy.
00:42:12
Speaker 2: That's crazy. That's crazy.
00:42:14
Speaker 4: But I relate to that. But I relate to that. I went to I went to high school in Detroit. I graduated class of two thousand and two, and I when I got there, probably one of the best athletic schools in Detroit, but also one of the most dangerous. And that's just the reality of it. You went there because it was either your neighborhood high school or you were really, really, really good in sports like that and that and that what it was. It was nothing to literally have a fight next to my locker, to see the Detroit Police Department walk up and down like that. I mean like we didn't have security. We didn't have security. We had DPD that was our security. And three miles over Detroit seven miles, not ease three miles not even a full three two.
00:43:03
Speaker 2: And a half miles over.
00:43:04
Speaker 4: When you get warned and you see WARRN tech and you see warm prep, you see the soccer team, the swim team, the hockey teams, the soccer field, the baseball field. They got thirty nine sports, two thousand kids. Of the two thousand kids, eight hundred of them is the senior class.
00:43:20
Speaker 2: Never very similar. I walked in with about four hundred kids.
00:43:24
Speaker 4: We graduated about one seventy five one eighth. Like everything that you're saying, I completely relate to because I lived it and it could be explained through policy.
00:43:37
Speaker 7: And that's what we have to try to help people understand that it's not that black folks are inferior. It's not that we are somehow not concerned about education.
00:43:46
Speaker 5: If it wasn't for black folks, you would even have public.
00:43:48
Speaker 3: Education in this country.
00:43:50
Speaker 7: You know, enslaved black folks. Reconstruction. Where's the first things we do. We build schools in churches, schools in church.
00:43:56
Speaker 5: We don't play about that. Education. Black folks have never played about education.
00:44:00
Speaker 7: You think about what black folks did to desegregate schools.
00:44:04
Speaker 5: We sent our babies, We sent six year olds into.
00:44:06
Speaker 7: Schools, six year olds and rogency. You have people outside with baby dolls hung up, and the brown and the richest family, these black families said no, no, no, my child's going to get an education. My child's going to get the best education. We've always believed in education. And so we can explain what is happening to black education, not because these test scores say this, because this, no, we can explain it through educational policy that has ensured our demise. And they've called an education reform, but it is designed to ensure that black folks stay on their knees. And that's what we got to be clear about and how we educate our black children.
00:44:53
Speaker 5: Because I tell folks all.
00:44:54
Speaker 7: The time, you could take black history, for instance, and Emani Perry says it best. This government did not give us black history, so they can't take it away, and same thing for education. We have to be able to educate our children. Yes, yeah, and that can happen at the barbershop, that could be at the grocery store, that can happen at the local live at home we have to take at home at home. We have to educate our children, and we have to demand excellence from these teachers. Excellence from these teachers. Yeah, and if you're not excellent, I teach teachers, and I don't. We don't need any more raggedy teachers. We need nothing but the best in front of all kids, all kids. I bet we don't need no more raggedy We don't need it.
00:45:40
Speaker 5: I mean, we don't.
00:45:41
Speaker 7: We need your best and your brightest to go into the field of education and see it as a calling, to see it as the work of democracy. If you are an educator, you are holding up democracy. And that's not hyperbole right now, not right now, Yeah, that is not Hyperbolely, you are holding up the strings.
00:46:00
Speaker 5: The last strings.
00:46:01
Speaker 7: We have a few strings of democracy level and that is our independent journalist, yes, who are doing everything to report the truth when our big media won't do it.
00:46:13
Speaker 5: And we have teachers.
00:46:14
Speaker 7: Yeah, you don't have free press and you don't have free education and the right to vote, you don't have a democracy. Yeah, and we're seeing those three things deeply attacked every day.
00:46:28
Speaker 5: That's the target. That's the target. She actually answered my question.
00:46:34
Speaker 3: Listen, before we move on to something else.
00:46:37
Speaker 1: First of all, I got to tell you I just ordered my Punished for Dreaming on Amazon. I cannot wait into it because I your video on YouTube where you talked a little bit about it. So I wrote some notes here because I wanted to ask you a couple of questions. First of all, the twenty five people that you mentioned in it, these people that you personally knew, and so you.
00:47:05
Speaker 5: Some I know, some I didn't know at all.
00:47:07
Speaker 7: So I have a research team of graduate students and we were just looking for folks. So we interviewed way more than twenty five people, but twenty five people really met the criteria of what we were looking for.
00:47:19
Speaker 5: Who had.
00:47:21
Speaker 7: Was impacted by the criminal injustice system, was impacted by school testing, was impacted by school police. So those were the folks who really helped me make the book a rich book.
00:47:33
Speaker 5: Those twenty five stories.
00:47:34
Speaker 7: We have a story in there of a young man named Johnny, his mother and father were both in courage.
00:47:38
Speaker 1: He was name I wrote down, Yeah, Johnny's and now he's working in schools right now trying to make sure what happened to his family and him doesn't happen again.
00:47:48
Speaker 7: He's an amazing individual. So some of these folks I didn't even know, and I just met through this work. But it was an amazing experience. And I think because it was COVID and it was zoom, everybody was human, So it was so easy to kind of like get into people's lives because we were such in a moment of that.
00:48:04
Speaker 5: So the book was really birthed out of amazing relationships with amazing people.
00:48:08
Speaker 1: You mentioned Johnny because one thing he talked about was and I, I don't know. I just found this number to be just He said, about eight million children have a parent that's incarcerating.
00:48:26
Speaker 7: No other country in the world incarcerations like the United States of America and.
00:48:31
Speaker 8: Not one, no, not a one, not a one. And airicam Miner says it best. She says, we don't have mass incarceration. We don't have mass incarceration in this country. We have targeted mass incarceration.
00:48:43
Speaker 3: That's it. That's it.
00:48:45
Speaker 7: Targeted mass incarceration. That's it, because black folks are not criminal. We do not create, we do we do not We are thirteen percent of the population, that is it. But we are criminalized, over criminalized, over police, over seveil, and overincarcerated. And so that is how you get a number like that. But it goes back to the very idea of the inception of this country, the original sin as Ebe Youwman would put it right, when you when you get a group of people and you enslave them, you have to make them. You have to make people believe that they are criminal to do these hideous acts to them. And so we are never we are never not living in the aftermath. Sl 're just never not living there ever again.
00:49:36
Speaker 1: So when I looked at the video on YouTube, there was in that short amount of time, I was just like, oh my God, like I really got to read this because it just there was a lot of information that you gave. But you also talk about like educational reparations or reparations in general, and you say that the book is about ending educational harm for black people. What does educational reparations mean? Like, can you explain that?
00:50:11
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you for that.
00:50:13
Speaker 7: So when people hear the word reparations, they should really think like repair. It's really another word for repair. So what I try to do throughout the book is I try I got eleven chapters of harm.
00:50:23
Speaker 5: And if you are, if you are rocking.
00:50:24
Speaker 7: With eleven chapters of harm, then you have to say, well, what the hell does repair look like?
00:50:29
Speaker 5: What can we do?
00:50:30
Speaker 7: And so reparations is a way for us to think about deep repair.
00:50:34
Speaker 5: And so I'm in my basement right now, and this is where it really happened.
00:50:38
Speaker 7: I had economists, all black women economists and policy folk came to my house.
00:50:43
Speaker 5: One weekend and they just done. They started doing some like.
00:50:49
Speaker 7: Dangerous minds out of the Beautiful Minds type of stuff with all the numbers and all the stuff. And we came up with categories of harm in this country. So I'll give you an example. In twenty ten, there was one hundred thousand black students who qualified for AP, had the test scores for AP, had you name it.
00:51:07
Speaker 5: They were ready for AP.
00:51:08
Speaker 7: Their school either did not have AP or their teacher did not recommend them for AP. Now when they go off to college, they will pay more because they do not have those credits to transfer in at no fault of their own.
00:51:21
Speaker 5: So we're talking about money.
00:51:24
Speaker 7: We're talking about students who are pushed out of high school. So if you don't graduate high school, there's almost a million dollars over lifetime earnings that you will never getting and you were pushed out of your high school. We're thinking, we're talking about dilapidated buildings.
00:51:41
Speaker 5: Right.
00:51:42
Speaker 7: Civil engineers have given many urban schools a D rating. There are schools right now that don't have drinking water.
00:51:48
Speaker 5: I have asthma. There are schools right now where.
00:51:50
Speaker 7: The ac bents are so terrible it ensures that our kids can't go to school. So when you think about that, what is the total cost of harrorm that's being done? And what I learned working with economists is that any amount that you any amount that an economist gives you, is a conservative amount. So we came up with two trillion dollars just for my generation, the hip hop generation, the post civil rights generation, with these six categories of harm. But I also just don't want to talk about reparations as economic because if we really thought about reparations and repair, that would mean that we are interested in apologizing, and what repair would look like as as far as policy, So, what would it mean to have an educational system in this country that is deeply funded. Each pupil in this country is about thirteen thousand dollars. We know that you need about forty thousand dollars to educate a kid, so there's always going to.
00:52:53
Speaker 5: Be any quality.
00:52:55
Speaker 7: Yeah, so repair would look like that we as a country would actually fun schools.
00:53:01
Speaker 5: Where we know they need to be. Repair would look like us having black history.
00:53:07
Speaker 3: Be mandatory, and we're doing just not mandatory, not.
00:53:13
Speaker 7: Banned books, right, and so repair actually looks like we know we have done harm and we are trying to end that harm generation. We're trying to rewrite our wrongs generationally. So I also want to check, Don't get me wrong, I want to check because other groups have gotten checked for the harbor that has been done. Yeah.
00:53:34
Speaker 5: Yeah, But I also want us.
00:53:36
Speaker 7: To say, if America could ever apologize and really atone, then we could start to create systems and structures that actually work for black folks and black women and queer folks and trans folks.
00:53:50
Speaker 5: We could actually do that type of work.
00:53:52
Speaker 7: And like black feminism says that when you lift up black women, everybody wins everybody.
00:53:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, everybody wins man. This is so the depths of the structural racism that has tormented this country has so run so deep that that people like even those who consider themselves allies, don't even truly understand what it actually would take to really make the difference that they vocally say that they want to make and maybe even mentally would like to make the But the way that this structural racism has dug so deep into the ingrainment of this country that I just don't think everybody truly really understands and realizes what that would truly look like.
00:54:39
Speaker 2: It's a lot of work, you.
00:54:41
Speaker 7: Know, to your point, a lot of work. The people who call themselves allies, the people say that we're to do the work of justice, don't even want to be inconvenience. Like, if you want justice, you're going to have to be inconvenienced, have to be like, have to be Like I always say this, I live in Atlanta, Georgia. Atlanta's is a hell of a place. Yeah, you got folks, You got folks who are pushing black people out of their neighborhood.
00:55:05
Speaker 5: Gentrification is huge here.
00:55:07
Speaker 7: And then they'll put a Black Lives Matter sign in the yard.
00:55:14
Speaker 4: See, yeah, you sound like de tree, that sound like detrait. I'm telling you, make that make sense sense.
00:55:23
Speaker 7: But they don't understand that the thing about racism is about material goods.
00:55:32
Speaker 5: You're getting material goods.
00:55:34
Speaker 7: You're getting structural things that benefit you structurally. You're getting home loans, you're getting low interest rates, you're getting wealth passed down. So be a nice person, is great, love it great, you're kind, okay, But what we're talking about is structural.
00:55:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so structural. It's it's it's structural. It's why I get so irritated. And I know we gotta we gotta wrap this up really soon. I swear we could have this conversation all day because it's so it's so good and so meaningful and so important to have. But it's why I get so irritated. And oh, I can't even begin to tell you how it blood boils my blood when I hear people use this very popular cliche of black people need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Bitch what boot straps? We ain ain't got boots. We need't start with boots.
00:56:30
Speaker 3: How about that?
00:56:31
Speaker 5: How about that we didn't even start with boots? What straps was.
00:56:34
Speaker 4: We use it because you want to equate the poverty of white people, because it does it there is an existence of some poverty of white people, which is very different than the poverty of black people.
00:56:48
Speaker 5: We start with nothing.
00:56:50
Speaker 4: We are not able to get the same kind of funding that you're able to achieve. We're not able to fill out the same type of fast performs that you're filling out because we're already starting behind it eight ball with certain things. You're talking about, educational educational reform, you talking about back in the nineties when I was growing up and this whole nold child left behind bullshit talking about that. We're talking about all of that. But you want me to start at twenty one years old, the same place that you started at when you were thirteen, And you're gonna tell me pulled myself by my bootstrap.
00:57:22
Speaker 5: Give me a boot dammit.
00:57:23
Speaker 6: Maybe maybe I can then pull myself up.
00:57:28
Speaker 5: That's what's back. It's back, girl.
00:57:31
Speaker 4: When I tell you, I get so I get so irritated when I hear it, I'll be ready to fight. Don't tell me that. Don't tell my people that, because it's not the same. It is not the same. So Okay, Cheryl, I'm gonna let you get the last one, because I talk all day.
00:57:48
Speaker 3: Man, there's so many.
00:57:51
Speaker 1: I'll leave with this one, and it's a simple one.
00:57:55
Speaker 3: But helping you can help with us.
00:58:00
Speaker 1: And tea mention it with with all of the banning of books in schools and just trying to erase our history. Just like you said, y'all didn't give us black history, so you definitely can't take it away. My question to you is, yes, we can teach them at home all the different places, but how do we make sure our history is not being erased in schools?
00:58:31
Speaker 5: That's a really great question, you know, I would say that right now.
00:58:36
Speaker 7: I have no confidence that that can be possible with public education right now, right because it's not just about the presidency. We have to understand, we're talking about state, local school boards. So they are invading all of these spaces. It's not just the presidency. They are looking at and invading and are showing up at school board meetings, at at curriculum meetings career like they are invading these spaces.
00:59:03
Speaker 5: But I will say this.
00:59:08
Speaker 7: Our ancestors never believe that school would be the place where where our children solely they did not believe that they do, but that school would be one place that they learned. But they also knew that they would learn in the church. They also knew that they would learn in their communities. They also knew that they would learn in the in the debate competitions that we had in our communities, they also would learn and and in sports like they knew that they would pick up the community.
00:59:43
Speaker 5: So I would say the answer to that is a community.
00:59:46
Speaker 7: And we have to stop thinking that the only place that can educate our children is public education. If you got kids, and you got if you got kids, you got a classroom.
00:59:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.
00:59:59
Speaker 5: I don't doesn't have to.
01:00:00
Speaker 7: Be a public school. It doesn't have to be. If I got kids in front of me, Oh I got a classroom. I don't even got to have books. I got a classroom. And we have to see it as that. So we have to say that everybody who comes in contact with our kids.
01:00:16
Speaker 5: Tell them a story, tell them the history.
01:00:19
Speaker 7: I don't Grandma sent grandma down and ReCore a grandma. All this technology right now, how do we not have an archive? Every family should have a family archive. ReCore a grandpa. Let them just talk, put the camera for let them just talk. We can have our own digital archives, we can have our own historical archives. We can start to tell these stories in our own families. There are so many black families that have rich stories. Like my mother was one of the first kids in Rochester, New York to integrate this school.
01:00:50
Speaker 5: I didn't know my mom. I'm like, I was like, Patty, you ruby b.
01:00:56
Speaker 7: But I never do that until I started asking questions and writing this book.
01:01:00
Speaker 5: Mother.
01:01:00
Speaker 3: I love that my mother is one of the.
01:01:02
Speaker 7: Toughest people on God's earth. When it's all said and downe it'll be roaches style.
01:01:06
Speaker 5: And pat.
01:01:14
Speaker 7: And smoked cigarettes every day. It's not a cigarette, smoke a pack the thing about. But my brother was in tears telling me about the time her.
01:01:30
Speaker 5: Mother, who could not read.
01:01:31
Speaker 7: My grandmother grew up in South Carolina, did not never learn how to read, sent her daughter to integrate a school in Rochester, New York, and my mother lasted less than six months and had to come back. She was I've never seen my mother cry like that telling me that story, So I never knew my mother was like integrated's flight. It's wild the generation that integrated schools are right here. Yeah, our students have only been in grown versus Board of Education was Night fifty four. We've only been that integration for seventy one years. Seventy two years.
01:02:03
Speaker 5: That's it. They're still alive. Ruby Bridges is.
01:02:06
Speaker 7: Still alive, alive, still alive, looking goods get tight. No, right, So I think that it's not about the schools, it's about us.
01:02:17
Speaker 1: I like that.
01:02:18
Speaker 7: That is about us, say doing the work. I like that because I tell teachers all the time. If you're a teacher and you have the textbook in front of you and you think that textbook is going to do the work, oh we're in trouble.
01:02:30
Speaker 5: Yeah.
01:02:32
Speaker 7: If you think that textbook is gonna be revolutionary and tell black folks who they are, and tell black children that they are beautiful and they should be loved and they should love their hair, their lifts and they should know their history. That textbook, Oh lord, you're done, You come done. You cook, you cook for real, cook Because.
01:02:46
Speaker 5: They ain't gonna never say it. It ain't never gonna say that.
01:02:48
Speaker 2: They ain't gonna never say that.
01:02:50
Speaker 7: So if the textbook is never gonna say it, the teacher never gonna say the school ain't gonna say it ever, but that can never be the place where we let whole on all the cars.
01:03:01
Speaker 5: To our children's identity.
01:03:04
Speaker 7: Absolutely, it might be their education, but their education and their identity go hand in hand, and we got to do the identity and the black identity work.
01:03:12
Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely, And I'm gonna add on to that by just simply saying, don't be afraid to continue to educate yourselves, because there are a lot of parents out here who aren't one hundred percent sure of the information themselves, which puts their children at a disadvantage because they don't know what to teach.
01:03:30
Speaker 2: But I love the fact that education never.
01:03:33
Speaker 4: Stops, so you don't have to be ashamed to say I don't know, but I want to learn so that I can pass this information on to my babies.
01:03:40
Speaker 2: And that's okay.
01:03:41
Speaker 4: Educate yourself so you can educate your kids, because I'm gonna tell you, I'm the one. I have my baby up in here doing spelling tests and shit that there's like she out of school now, I mean she out of school? You right, but you're not about to text and you don't know what you're texting because you don't know how to sell, because you don't.
01:03:57
Speaker 3: Know how to read, like what do you do like?
01:03:59
Speaker 5: No, not mine, not mine. I got your kids. I got your kids. They're twins. I'll play about mine my kids.
01:04:06
Speaker 7: No, my kids know on my birthday, their birthday gift to me is to watch documentaries.
01:04:11
Speaker 5: See that you have to watch documentaries. I'm a step mom. I'm a step mom, and my and my step daughter, my bonus daughter. But my daughter basically she when she was younger eleven twelve, they didn't, they didn't.
01:04:24
Speaker 4: She didn't have that right. So come in when she was with me. No, baby, you're finna learn something. You learn something like that is.
01:04:31
Speaker 2: What it is, doctor Love.
01:04:33
Speaker 4: It has been a pleasure having to you on our show today. Please let our audience know where they can find you, where they can keep up with you.
01:04:44
Speaker 3: Just where that.
01:04:47
Speaker 8: Right?
01:04:49
Speaker 5: So much?
01:04:49
Speaker 7: Well, let me just say it's been wonderful being in conversation with you all.
01:04:54
Speaker 5: Big fans, and just really appreciate it that you have on the show.
01:04:58
Speaker 7: You can find my work aft of Tina Love dot That's where you can find my books. That's where you can find my articles. Also know that Punished for Dreaming comes with an album. So if you go to Betina Love dot com. There's an album that goes with that. There's also a coloring book for kids that go with the album is free.
01:05:14
Speaker 5: The coloring book, and on top of.
01:05:16
Speaker 7: That, there's a study guide that allows you to go through the book. So Buttina Love dot com is where you can find everything. I'm on Instagram at be Love Soul Power. I think that said I don't I don't have anything else.
01:05:28
Speaker 5: I do all them socials.
01:05:29
Speaker 2: That's all.
01:05:30
Speaker 5: That's all you need. Too much, that's all you too much. That's all you need. That's all you need.
01:05:34
Speaker 4: That's how you Instagram. I'll watch a little dog and cats. That's all I can do. That's all you need, That's all you need. Well, thank you so much for joining us. It's really been a pleasure of having this conversation and trust and believe we definitely want to have you back on the show at some other time to just kind of continue the conversation because, like I said, you never can stop learning.
01:05:50
Speaker 7: Well, all I appreciate that. Well, I would say this next March, I have a book.
01:05:54
Speaker 5: Coming off called Betina and the Ball.
01:05:56
Speaker 7: It's about a little Girl's a children's book and about a little girl who falls in love with a basketball, love through a basketball, So it's called Batina and the Balls. I would love to send you all the CoA. We should have it ready in like the next three four months, but it comes out next March for Tina, and it's a beautiful love story me and my dad and how we just fell in love through uh through the basket.
01:06:19
Speaker 3: And March.
01:06:21
Speaker 5: I know it's your birthday month, sir.
01:06:27
Speaker 3: You love that amazing.
01:06:31
Speaker 1: This has been a joy first of all, but also very educational and like I needed this for my soul today, So thank you, Cheryl.
01:06:56
Speaker 4: I literally could have, like I probably had a good four or five more additional time topics of conversation that I could have had with doctor Love because damn, she was hitting shit like she was hitting nails right on the head.
01:07:08
Speaker 3: You know.
01:07:09
Speaker 1: For me, it's always great to have I love all of our guests. Every time we bring a guest on, regardless of the topic, I feel like.
01:07:17
Speaker 3: We always connect. We always have a great conversation.
01:07:20
Speaker 1: There's something special about having doctor Patina Love on and just really being able to dive into like our past, our present, and absolutely our future. From everything, you know, she hit all the stuff on what's going on in the political realm right now, and just what's going on in lights and how we as black people have always had to work twice as hard, but also just understanding our history and what that looks like and what that means. But such a great conversation, like you, I think we could have talked a whole another hour, but we just got to bring her back on.
01:08:07
Speaker 2: We do we do? I think if I had to choose a part of that conversation.
01:08:10
Speaker 4: That I loved, and there were many, I love the conversation surrounding black joy and just how we find happiness in everything, and it sort of is a form of resistance, like people want to break us down, they want to bend us to the point of no return, and we still find a way to laugh and smile and find joy everything.
01:08:30
Speaker 2: And so I'm excited about it.
01:08:32
Speaker 1: And so with that, and I want to just say this before we we hop off, I have ordered my book in case y'all need a reminder. Her book, Punished for Dreaming is a New York Times bestseller. I cannot wait to dive into it, but just to hear a little bit from her about what this book is about, like real life stories on you know, the whole title Punished for dreaming. I can't wait to dive in and y'all go get your copy.
01:09:04
Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely so I'm sure before we head out of here, we uh would love for you to give us a good word, because you know, I got a good one today and I think it.
01:09:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it can relate to the conversation.
01:09:21
Speaker 1: But even if it doesn't, it absolutely relates to you and I because we talk a lot about just you being who you are and keeping it real and me being who I am keeping it real, and us together on levels to this. On this podcast, we're always authentic and we just keep it real.
01:09:38
Speaker 3: So my word today is.
01:09:43
Speaker 1: Authenticity will always look a little cringe to people who are pretending.
01:09:51
Speaker 4: Oh I need you to hit that one one time.
01:09:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, authenticity will always look a little cringe to people who are pretending.
01:10:05
Speaker 3: There it is, there it is.
01:10:09
Speaker 2: That's the one.
01:10:10
Speaker 4: That's the one that one might have to go on the page because how real is because honey, you can always tell real when they say real, recognize really it is a real thing because people what yes, yeah, because because because these fake ones.
01:10:29
Speaker 2: Clutching pearls.
01:10:33
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that one that is the one. I like that one for today.
01:10:37
Speaker 4: That was a word, that that was a word, and it's a perfect segue honestly to us letting you guys know that you will not find a more authentic show than Levels to this and you might want to go and tell your friends that the next episode will be one of the most authentic episodes that you were here because Cheryl and I were joined by some other special guests live in New York and when I tell you, we had a time, but we also had moments. There was laughter, there was vulnerability, there was everything. So we are if you love this episode and we have a doctor love, you are going to truly love our upcoming episode full of authenticity. So we just want you to keep locking in with us, stay tuned in us, stay locked, and stay locked in with us on the Iheartwomen's Sports Network. You can definitely find our show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Please make sure you're following us on Instagram at olttpod and yes, we do check our emails, so please email us at Levels too, this podcast at gmail dot com because remember, this isn't just our show, it is our show and we want to hear from you. So until next time, friends, keep your mentals ground level and we'll be back next week.
01:11:56
Speaker 7: Pege.
01:11:58
Speaker 1: Listen to levels to This, America's number one podcast network, iHeart, open your free iHeart app and search levels to This with Ryl Swoops and Treka Foster Brasbee and start listening