Perspectives on Couples Therapy: What We're Really Fighting About

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[upbeat music] Coming up on today's episode of It's Called Reality Sometimes you watch a couple and you watch her hold space for them, and you're like, "Orna, are you believing this bullshit from this couple right now?"
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Okay, this was, like, kind of fucked up, but I had a therapist break up with me. [laughs] Every person thinks that their mom or their partner or their ex-partner's a narcissist, and it's like, they're probably not.
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I just feel like maybe some people, a lot of people are out there getting therapy, and they don't have the right therapist, you know?
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There's people out there who aren't getting good therapy, and they're using therapy to continue to justify their bad behavior. Mm-hmm. There are people who have learned how to weaponize therapy speak.
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[upbeat music] Welcome to It's Called Reality. The discourse for people who give a shit. I'm Willow. And I'm Brianna. And today we're exploring something pretty vulnerable from the therapist couch.
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We're covering the hit Showtime show, Couples Therapy, specifically season two. We're not gonna talk about fixing a fight, but the discourse about understanding the invisible emotional systems underneath them.
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Trigger warning: This episode will discuss addiction, alcoholism, and suicidal ideation, so please listen with care. Okay, Willow, before we even start about Couples Therapy, did you re-watch season two?
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'Cause it, it filmed during COVID, like, 2020 COVID. Yeah, yeah. I, I went back and re-watched it this week just to refresh my memory and everything, but before... I, I wanted to know why...
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What specifically about this season did you wanna talk about compared to the others? Like, why did you choose this season? I just remember these...
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I just remember watching season one and being like, "Okay, that was really good." And then I remember watching season two and being like, "This is so vulnerable." You just immediately... I don't know.
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I feel like the peop- the couples on there, there's this one couple in particular who I'm just like, "I will never forget them." [laughs] I wonder if you can guess who it is.
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But the, their dynamic, I was just like, "Oh."
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I remember, like, sitting back, watching, and just being like, "I cannot believe that they're reacting this way in front of a literal therapist," and knowing they're being filmed. This is them with all of that awareness.
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So Michael and Hall? Yeah. Yeah. Michael and Mykel. I was just- Mykel... she just cuts Orna off so much, and the type of stuff she says, explosive, made for TV.
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Okay, so before we dive into that, yeah, I, I specifically remember that couple, and I was like, "If we have to talk about a season, we should talk about this one," 'cause I just remember it being like...
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It's a good introduction to Couples Therapy the show if you haven't watched it already.
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So I feel like if you wanna get into it, just skip season one, start straight with number two, and then it, it's just, yeah, dynamite.
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A- and, like, we can bring up, if we, like, remember other examples from other seasons, we can tie it in. I'm sure we will.
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But I, I think it's a good season 'cause it, like, it really only focuses on three couples- Mm-hmm... which I feel like other seasons maybe do a bit more. Four, maybe five.
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So yeah, it is good, so you can, like, really... 'Cause there's so much there with each of them. Yeah.
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Okay, so Couples Therapy, so if you've seen it or if you haven't, quick little refresher, the show itself is more of a documentary, a series documentary, and the episodes are short.
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They're only 20 to 30 minutes, so they go by really quick. There's no competition. There's no winners. There's no plan. It's really just documenting therapy, couples therapy, obviously.
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And so the tension of the show comes from watching people confront their deepest relationships with themselves, and then obviously with each other.
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And yeah, so, so the show follows, like Willow said, a handful of couples, sometimes three, I think sometimes five, and throuples in later seasons, but not in season two. [laughs] And it follows a handful of couples.
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They're all different ages, races, backgrounds, gender, sexuality, sexual identities. There's a variety of people through multiple sessions and multiple months of couples therapy, actually.
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I feel like I don't have this on lockdown, but I think it's 26 sessions, so I think they are followed for a very, very long time. That's a lot. And- That's a- It is a lot... that's a long time. Yeah.
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It's like, I think it's, like, six- And they go weekly, or? I don't know for sure, but I think it's six months weekly would, is what it would translate to. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
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And it's interesting, too, because when you're watching a session, they don't... How do I say this? You're watching a session. There's no clipping back and forth because they're wearing the outfits that they're wearing.
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Orna, the therapist, is sh- her hair, and, like, it's not like they're editing from different pieces. It's like you're actually within a session.
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There might be a little bit of editing around, but you're not watching a little bit of a conversation from their third session and a little bit sprinkled in for episode 13.
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You know how on Love is Blind they specifically have those gold goblets so that you can't tell at which point in the conversation it's being piecemealed together?
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That's so not the case for this show, which is super interesting. So do you think that the way they edit it together, they're f- actually following it chronologically? 'Cause we don't see every single session.
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They're just pulling probably the most interesting ones or the ones that have the most pertinent information or, that, or tell us the most about the couple or, like, where they make a specific breakthrough or whatever.
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Um. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't know necessarily if it's chronological, but I'm assuming they're filming every single session, so even when they film- Yeah...
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26, they're only choosing, like, seven or eight to focus on for the whole season, which is- Right... bananas. Yeah, yeah.
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You're pulling hours and hours, thousands of hours, and there's so many hidden cameras within the room itself during a session. So many hours of footage for, like, a- Yeah...
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yeah, a 25-minute episode with three different couples per episode. Yeah, yeah.
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And, and also I'm pretty sure she actually does sessions with more couples, and then they end up choosing the ones they wanna feature, right? Yes, yes. That are, like, gonna be the best TV or whatever, right? Yes. Yeah.
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So you're gambling and almost hoping... I don't know. Maybe you do wanna be on TV, but-
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I would gamble that I'd be like, "Okay, hopefully I'm somewhat boring enough that I can get all this free therapy and not have to have it all aired for everybody [laughs] else to see." Yeah.
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Because especially with Orna, I'm like, she is not cheap. You, you can tell. She is... That therapist office alone- Seasons... like, that- Yeah Yeah. Well, apparently the office isn't a real office.
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It's in a production studio. You have to walk in- No... get mic'd up, right, do all those things. Shh. Yeah.
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[laughs] So it's like you walk in, you see all the, you see the camera crew, but it's like when you're actually in the room, you don't see anything.
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So the room itself is designed to feel as natural as possible, but the coming in, coming out experience, it's, it's not. There's, there's cameras in- That makes sense...
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books and cameras behind the walls and, and there's people behind them directing them and everything. So yeah, super interesting. Right.
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That is interesting because, like, to get people to open up and, like, it be a real therapy session, like, you can't have a bunch of other people in the room, like, standing there with a camera.
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[laughs] 'Cause, like, that's gonna obviously- Completely biased... yeah, that's gonna thr- throw things off for sure. So okay, that's cool.
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Yeah, it's like every episode- I never really had thought about how they do that. Yeah, and I think every episode you watch the couple walk into a waiting room essentially, and then walk into the session.
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And I think that waiting room is, like, literally specifically to...
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I don't know how long they're held there, but I think it's to let about what you just had to come into feel like you're in a waiting area before you go into your session to make it as natural as possible.
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Super interesting. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. So with that in mind, so as natural as possible, but we are getting a glimpse into, I, I'll say characters because, or I guess subjects. [laughs] Clients. Yeah.
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We're getting a glimpse, yeah, into these people's real lives, and we even see, we see the sessions, but we also get clips of them living their everyday lives. We'll see them at the playground with their kids.
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We'll see them cooking dinner, see them walking their dog.
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It's broken up by seeing their everyday activities as in addition to their subjects to kind of, or in their ses- sessions, to give them more of that full picture. And- Mm-hmm...
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yeah, we watch their stories unfold over the season with, as we mentioned, Dr. Orna Guralnik. I'm not sure. Dr. Orna- Yeah... Guralnik. We always just hear her called Orna. Yeah.
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But yeah, she's a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst based in New York, and she's on the faculty at the National Institute for Psychotherapy, so it's [laughs] this whole show is so New York.
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That's the only way I can say it. Fascinating. Yeah. [laughs] So, so there's a bunch of layers of access, so we see the sessions themselves.
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We see the glimpses into the couples' everyday lives, and then we see Orna actually behind the scenes, which is so fascinating and so different, I think, than other- Yeah...
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therapy shows or podcasts or anything like that. We see Orna go to her mentor, and I only know her as Virginia or Dr. Virginia, and she basically offloads her feelings, her thoughts, her real feelings to Dr.
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Virginia to try to get her insight from her mentor, and then she also actually talks to a group of peers, of other therapists and counselors and professionals to bounce ideas off of them as well, which is super interesting 'cause you, I don't know, especially in this- Yeah, I love that part.
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Yeah, it's so good, and we'll, we'll circle back.
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We'll come back to it, but super interesting 'cause you, sometimes you watch a couple and you watch her hold space for them and you're like, "Orna, are you believing this bullshit from this couple right now?
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I don't, I don't believe what they're saying at all." And then she'll pan to Dr. Virginia and she's like, "I basically have to placate them because otherwise they're just gonna quit therapy."
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And I'm like, she knows, and she does know. Yeah. It's so nice to, like, see that perspective. Yeah. Oh, she- Yeah... sees through everything. It's, ugh, it's kind, it's intimidating, for sure.
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Right, because then when you're- But it's good. That's what you want. But you're, when you're watching the session, like, if I were the couple, I wouldn't know that that's what she was thinking.
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She does not give away on her face at all. So yeah, we see couples through couple months enter therapy.
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Especially in season two, like Michael and Mikal, they start the series not pregnant and kind of talking about wanting another kid, and then they end it with her being, like, super pregnant towards the end of her pregnancy, and then, like, in the very last episode when they kind of do, like, a wrap-up montage, they're there with her new baby.
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So, you know, that's like at least a year of, of start to finish for the show. I don't know the months, but it is, like, pretty comprehensive. And yeah, sometimes it's really hopeful.
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Like, couples will, I don't know, they, you j- you just can sense that they're, like, very appreciative and they're lighter. Sometimes couples split.
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And sometimes couples actually just halfway through ghost, don't come back, or they take a break and then they come back later. So it's, like- Mm... really full spectrum, quite interesting.
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I, I feel like a, a real taste of how real therapy would go. So that's a little bit about kind of the format, and then we can get into, I'll just call them the couples. We'll get into the couples.
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So there's three couples. So we have Michael and Mikal, Tashira and Drew, but I think she goes by Tash. Yeah. And then Gianni and Matthew. So- Mm-hmm...
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Michael and Mikal, we're assuming that they're in a hetero relationship. They've been together for 11 years. They start off the series with two kids, and then spoiler, they finish with three. Mm.
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And Mikal is initially upset because she feels like Michael hasn't delivered the life that she's expecting. Michael is super karma devoidant. He's just functionally passive.
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He has a hard time describing his wants and needs because he basically doesn't want to express them because Mikal just bulldozes, steamrolls literally everything.
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Yeah, they, this couple dynamic is the one where I'm, like, rewatching it again even as, like, this is as bad as it was the first time. This is still a shocker. It is still so crazy. Um- Mm-mm. Yeah.
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Their dynamic is, she escalates, he ghosts. She g- ghosts harder, he circles back. She's, yeah, just yelling, yelling, yelling, and he's like [laughs] Yeah. And you know, but, but you know what?
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It, it is, like, obviously a very, they're very extreme, but I found that I, I, like, relate to Mik- Mikal so much. Um- Me too...
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obviously not- I mean, hopefully I'm not as, like, intense, but I don't know, maybe I am sometimes. You're not.
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[laughs] But I just relate to her, to her, like, an- the anxiety obviously that she's feeling and this, like, kind of need to control- Yeah... because of that anxiety.
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And, and also at one point she says, where Orna's, like, trying to get her to kind of, like- "Michal, Michal, Michal, Michal"... relax a little bit. Yes. You don't... Yeah, yeah.
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[laughs] "You don't need to be so anxious about this." And she's like, "Yeah, but I'm right." And I'm like, that's relatable [laughs] 'Cause I am also so like that. And snaps Michal. [laughs] Yeah.
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A- and, like, the way that their dynamic i- is in that it's kind of the perfect storm of, like, he, because he's so passive and then it's just, like, this, like, cycle of, kind of intensifies, I guess, both of their, like- Yeah...
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I don't even know what you would call it- Their attachment style... the ways that they react. Yeah. Yeah. Attachment styles, yeah.
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'Cause he's, like, becoming even more passive, and, like, that as, again, I'm, like, an anxious person who, like, needs to control things, would make me crazy, you know? Yeah. I get it.
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I get where she gets so ramped up in reaction to him being, like, so- Yeah... go with the flow. I should say, yeah, I should say that- Yeah... like, everything feels, like, it's a couple.
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It's a dynamic between the two people. Yeah. Yeah. So there's no one person that's always in the wrong. It is, like- No, no, no...
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the interaction of factors between two people, which also is just how relationships work in general.
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That's why you can be really good friends with somebody, but they're a shitty boyfriend for you, and they're a great boyfriend for someone else or whatever. Because, yeah, it- it's- Totally... it's two.
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There, there's a factor of two. So yeah, I, I shouldn't say she's so terrible, but there's so many times in the sessions where she's just bulldozing. Orna is even calling her back to be like, "Let's take a break.
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Look at me. Focus on me," and she's just can't hear anything.
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She's so focused on just proving her point, going on a rant, and it's, I just remember being like, oh, me personally, my therapist says my name and I'm like, "Yep. Yes, Miss. What can I do?" [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.
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Would never cut her off like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Crazy. [laughs] I think is that what you mean by it being, like, very New York? Um- Is they're not worried about being polite the way that we are?
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[laughs] I think it's definitely a factor. I know everyone's just so unique. Yeah. Every person and every couple is so different, and I, I don't know, I just feel like that part is very New York. Mm. Unashamedly unique.
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Okay. Yeah, for sure.
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Yeah, and I do wanna say, too, I, I think we'll probably get into it when we go into our bigger discussion, but something I've really noticed online, especially about this couple, 'cause you see clips of this show online, or it shows up on TikTok or whatever.
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Mm-hmm. And you go into the comments, first of all, this is one show where you, it's therapy, so you need the context and- Yeah...
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the nuance, and it, it does tr- really try, I think they, they take that really seriously in the edit, I think, and try and introduce as much nuance as possible, and I think they do that.
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A mechanism of doing that is through Orna's reflections that we hear, too. Yeah. Um, because the audience, and you can just see it in the comments section, projects so much on these couples. Mm.
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It's really interesting to see. There's so many people that are triggered in the comments by Michael's w- what's it called? Something incompetence. It's weaponized incompetence or whatever. Oh, okay.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which I get, but, but it's also, there, there's just so much you're not seeing. Yes. Well, I think what's really interesting is this whole, what is it called?
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Online therapy or therapy talk, where now, especially through TikTok, people just share, I don't know, they just share a lot, so people start to learn these new terms. They learn what weaponized incompetence is.
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They learn what gaslighting is. They learn what breadcrumbing is. They learn all of these terms. But then also, people also learn about it and then use it. I don't know, it's just very interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
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Like, these terms, they never, they don't have their, like, clinical meaning anymore the way, like, a therapist would use them, 'cause we're just kind of applying them to every situation. Yeah. Um, yeah.
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It's why every person thinks that their mom or their partner or their ex-partner's a narcissist, and it's like- Yeah... no, they're probably not. They're just, yeah. Narcissism is so still extremely rare.
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There, it's, no, there's no way that everybody knows a narcissist. Yeah. There's no way every single person has dated a narcissist. So that's couple one. Yeah. Who are the other couples? Okay. Mm.
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Couple two, Tash and Drew. So again, assuming that they're hetero. They've been together two years.
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They became pregnant super early in their relationship, and as they're filming, they have a very young child, like between six to 10 months I'm gonna guess. That's, that's complete guess when we see them.
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They bring their child, um, into a couple therapy sessions, because it's during COVID and they switch to Zoom, which we'll kinda, kinda talk about. But yeah, so- Mm-hmm... they became pregnant super early.
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They haven't been together very long. Tash is super interesting, because she is definitely somebody who has been through a lot of trauma in her life, and she feels like life just happened to her.
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It was just forced on her. She feels pretty resentful towards Drew for a lot of things. So she's very emotionally guarded. She's very drawn to independence more than she is to a partner.
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I don't think it's Drew himself, but she definitely wants this at all costs and protection of herself at all costs. And unfortunately, Drew as her partner is just collateral. Yeah.
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And he wants closeness, and he can't understand why she keeps pulling away. So yeah. You have a note here. You're like, "How old is their baby? The baby doesn't look two." [laughs] Okay.
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Well, something that came up was, like, part of her, at, at a certain point in their therapy, it's not like a core part of their story, but they kind of talk about their lack of sex life. Yeah.
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And they don't, they, they kinda cite other reasons for it, right? Like her feel- saying she's not as attracted to him or, or whatever, even though- Yeah... I think there's deeper reason than that.
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But they never mention, I'm like, wait, how old is their baby?
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Because to me, he doesn't even look like he's two years old yet, and they don't bring this as a, I'm like- It kind of makes sense to me that that could be a big factor into why she's not interest- Just like her postpartum.
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Yeah. Yeah. Maybe she just doesn't wanna have sex right, or isn't as interested in sex right now because of that, and I don't know. Yeah.
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I was just kinda, that was something that stood out to me that they di- never really dive into, but- Yeah... it seems, like, pretty important. Maybe it's not, but- I don't think she's, like, freshly postpartum.
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So yeah, part of this ha- like, happens where COVID, they, they start all the sessions in person, and then, I don't know, a couple episodes in and it's, it's COVID lockdowns, bubble, everything just shuts down, and it's just completely unexpected, obviously.
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And so yeah, that's when they switch their sessions to online, and because they're online and at home, and the- they can't have babysitters or do anything while they're filming, Tasha and Drew's baby comes into the, the scene for a little bit, but the baby looks pretty young.
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The baby obviously can't walk, but- Mm... has head control and, and looks like, you know, not newborn. So I don't know, so a couple months into their sessions, I think, yeah, between six to 10 months would be my guess.
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Yeah, I mean s- I mean, postpartum, it's such a trip. Yeah.
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And, like, I just feel like maybe there's just pressure, this is, like, Drew's first experience with having a partner go through childbirth and dealing with postpartum.
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This is Tasha's second time having, this is her second baby. Yeah, I don't know.
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Yeah, if he's that young, if it's, like, less than a year, then especially I'm like, okay, well this is just, you know- You gotta walk a lot-... a newborn baby... actually. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.
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But, like, part of Tasha's, like, trauma is that she had a physically abusive father who was, like, kind of, like, explosively violent, and so obviously that has informed h- a lot of how she relates to men and ha- forms relationships.
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Yeah. Yeah. And, and this was just something that, like, I'm glad they included it.
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It was very eye-opening to me of how they focus on this part where, like, Drew feels this need, 'cause he has a good relationship with her father, and- Oh, yeah...
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to him, he's never seen her, or her father act, like, violently, because he's violent towards women. Although she s- she also said that he used to beat up her stepdad and stuff, too.
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Anyways, he says that he feels this need to maintain a warm feeling towards her dad, even though he knows that this violence has occurred, and I don't know, it was just so interesting to me, an insight into, like, how men justify other men's violence, and- Oh, hey, this is interesting...
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he even says, "Why would I put myself, why would I put myself in an uncomfortable situation?" I'm like, well, y- you know, because, I don't know.
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I thought I read unco- the uncomfortable situation, okay, I read it, I, I remember this, I remember it, or interpreted it slightly differently, where I thought it was like they were talking about him and Tasha's, they were talking about Tash, Tasha and her dad's, yeah, abuse towards her, and he was uncomfortable, and because he had those uncomfortable feelings about basically talking about him in the sessions, he felt the need to rectify that, and which I think it says he went out and hung out essentially with Tasha's dad, just the two of them, and he was like, "I f- just felt like I needed to, yeah, I was uncomfortable, I needed to rectify the situation with her dad," even though he didn't know about it [laughs] and probably, I mean, maybe knows about it now because it was on TV, but at the time he, he was uncomfortable and he didn't know what to do with that uncomfortable feelings.
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And yeah, his solution was, "I'm just gonna hang out with her dad." It's like, oh, oh. Right. I, I think she wants to have a relationship with her dad now.
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It's more, I, I feel like it was, if I was interpreting it right, it's, it felt like, because something happens with her sister a- as a result of, while they're, while they're in session as a result of her sister's relationship with her dad and stuff, and so that brings up feelings that Tasha has about her dad, and she- Yeah...
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kind of talks about, like, how Drew just wants to solve it instead of just understanding or just listening to her, like, validating her feelings or whatever. So, so maybe- Mm-hmm...
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that's part of it, where he, "Okay, well, we can solve this relationship with your dad 'cause he's not that bad of a guy. I, I like him," you know? I don't know. [laughs] I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to say.
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It's hard to say, but I'm not saying that he's a bad person. I understand where he was coming from, but I was just like, oh, that's interesting how that he's- Yeah...
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trying to come to terms with this and, and how he relates to other people, h- how he can al- have a relationship with her dad while this, knowing this, and still- Yeah. No...
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feel uncomfortable about it, but not have to do anything about it necessarily. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah, and, like, it's not a, like, we're talking about Drew, but he is not the only person in the world who feels like this, and in fact, I think it's more common for- Okay...
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for the way that, I s- I don't know, I don't know how old he is, but I'm assuming he's, like, a millennial man, for how millennial men are socialized or were socialized when they were kids.
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Like, it would very much, "You're not feeling your emotions. You're not here to understand your emotions." Yeah. "Why are you crying? Don't cry. You don't need to cry. Girls cry." It's just, like, that socialization.
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So, uh- Yeah... how would you expect him to be able to handle hard feelings? You basic- everyone has told boys not to feel them, so it's not a surprise- Yeah...
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that now people who are in relationships with men who were socialized this way are having [laughs] difficult times progressing past that because literally everybody has conditioned them this way.
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It's hard, but yeah, Drew, he reflects that, but he's, he's not unique. He's very much a reflection of men in- Yeah, definitely... men in general, too.
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Okay, so then we have Gianni and Matthew, and they've been together for three years. They're a queer couple.
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Matthew is in recovery from alcoholism and now is sober, and he's confronting a sexuality that's entangled with his substance use and his basically familial abandonment and just dealing with his whole adult life with Gianni.
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So again, there's a lot of trauma for both of them. There's, yeah, the addiction, the alcoholism, and the suicidal ideation within their couple, so very difficult.
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And Orna, through some of her sidebars, [laughs] some of the questions she asked, you're like, ooh.
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Johnny and Matthew are, are fighting about a photo that had resurfaced from earlier in their relationship when Matthew was very drunk, and Orna says at some point, "I think it would be helpful for you to see this photo.
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I think it would be... or video. I think it would be helpful for you to see this." And I th- I think it's the editing, but Matthew and Johnny just look at her like, "What? We're not doing that."
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Wh- they don't say anything. Yeah. And then it just, hands away and cuts to her, and then Orna's talking to her mentor, Virginia, and she's like, "Yeah, I just, I have a soft spot for Matthew.
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I just, I really wanna help him. I'm projecting onto him. I have this savior complex with him. I just, oh my gosh." And then I just, I... [laughs] You could just fr- just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing?
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[laughs] It's super interesting- Mm-hmm...
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I think to see that, 'cause you're like, we as a collective society assume that therapists and counselors have it all figured out because they're helping us through our shit, but they are regular people in their professions.
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No matter how good they are, they're not perfect. They're also just people. They are helping themselves through the same things they're helping us through.
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It was super vulnerable of her to show that to us, which I really, really appreciated.
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Yeah, I love that they show the human side of, of therapists and Orna was actually on the Las Culturistas podcast recently, uh, with the launch of season five that just came out. You're joking.
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Um- I need to go listen to that. It, it's really good. I highly recommend you should. Um- Okay...
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so I might cite it, cite it a couple of times 'cause, uh, it was really, really interesting, but one of the things they talk about, what was important to her when making this show, she was like, "I don't wanna make another show that's, like, about the narcissistic therapist, like, trope."
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Mm. Right? Where it's centered on her and, like, her genius and, like, it's about the therapist. She was like, "It was really important to me for that not to be the show that we're making.
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I wanted it to focus it on just the work." Ooh. And she's very intentional about trying to keep, like, that boundary up. Yeah. And, but, but al- while also showing some more human sides of her and- Yeah...
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through these other com- through her, like, her mentor sessions and stuff, so.
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Well, and you say human sessions, which is interesting, 'cause I think this might be the only season where they show her with her kids, actually. They show photos of her with her kids in, in their house. Oh, yeah.
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And yeah, and it's interesting that you say that because I totally get that through her sessions. Right? That's why I think this one, this show in particular is so unique. I also listen to Esther Perel's podcast.
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I really like Esther Perel's- Mm... couples therapy podcast. Yeah, me too. I think she has, I don't know, she, she has a few. I mean, Esther Perel kinda does the same thing. She'll be like, "Ah." She'll pause it.
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"Kind of wish I asked this. I, I a- I said the wrong kind of probe here, and I wish that I didn't go in this direction in hindsight, but this is what I did and this is how the rest of the session went."
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But yeah, Or- and that's a podcast, so we don't see what's going on. But yeah, Orna's is, is definitely interesting and, and I think you're right.
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She does mostly highlight the couples, and that's why we don't even know her last name. I had to Google it. She says a relationship conflict is rarely about, about the thing being argued about.
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She talks about, you know, people come into therapy and they have their, like, presented problem, and then- Mm... her job is to kind of, through the process of therapy, really get to what the root cause is of- Mm...
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how the problem is just, like, how this root cause is being expressed, but you're not gonna solve it by just being like surface level solving this problem. You know what I mean?
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Um- I'm gonna say it's basically impossible that the problem that you're having is the only problem, and that by solving that one problem- Yeah... everything else will be solved.
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What your problem is, is popping up in so many different areas, and yeah, you have to get to the root. Yeah, so she, like, asks questions about their upbringings and, like, certain words or phrases that she used. She...
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I find that super interesting. She'll often push back. Like, someone will just say something kind of generic or whatever.
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They'll be like you would just in conversation, and she'll force them to be like, "No, keep going with that thought." Mm-hmm. "What is it?"
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If they're just like, "I feel, it, see what this it does or whatever," she'll just push them to- Yeah... keep going and be like, "Why did you... Like, this word is important," or whatever.
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Yeah, and then sh- uh, through that you kinda reveal that the problem they're presenting is a symptom and not, like, the actual problem. It's about the feelings. Symptoms slash pattern.
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Yeah, so it's often, like, the feelings of the partners. Like, really it comes down to these basic, like, core needs of being loved and of being like, "Do I matter to you? Can I depend on you?
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Do you see me, and am I safe to be with you," basically. Yeah. And this is such a different show than, like, other ones that we've covered because it is real people, you know? Yeah.
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Like, the, I don't think that these people are playing a character, at least not in the early seasons. It'll be interesting to see how, as the show
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has more and more seasons and gets more popular, if people are gonna be coming on and being more performative, wanting to be on TV. What type of people they want to cast, as well.
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Is it the Tyra effect, where, "We need it bigger." Yeah. "We need it crazier." Right. Right, let's get... E- exactly.
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Well, we don't wanna get it, it stale, so we need people with, like, more extreme trauma or in a more, a, a, more and more un- traditional relationships or whatever.
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Um- Which they kind of already started to do when they brought in the throuple, and they bring in a lot of people who want- Yeah... to have open relationships, which I... Is that very common?
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There's a, there's at least one se- couple of seasons who's with wanting to open their relationship or are in an open relationship. Am I just a prude? [laughs] How many people are in open relationships? I,
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I don't know anybody in an open relationship. I think that, I don't know the stats on it. My, I guess, initial feeling on that is it's probably, A, more common in somewhere like New York. Mm.
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Um, also more common maybe in cer- people who are seeking therapy. I don't know, 'cause that's- That's good... you're already- Struggling... kind of like, if you're... Yeah, I don't know. Or, and/or
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I think it probably is more common in queer relationships. Yeah, but there aren't always queer relationships that are open. I mean, you say you like Esther Perel.
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I don't know if you've ever read her book, Mating in Captivity. I have not read it, but, um- I ha- I listened to the audiobook. Yeah. Oh, okay. Nice. And, and that's basically about monogamy, right?
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And non-monogamy, and is it natural? And Esther Perel really was the first person that I heard, a- and I like, I listened, 'cause her podcast was out in 2018-ish. Mm-hmm.
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And so I was probably, I don't know, in, in my, like, mid-20s, and that was the first time I heard pe- someone come with the idea that cheating doesn't need to be, like, the be-all, end-all of a relationship.
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Like, that doesn't... It c- it can be if that's what your boundary is, and that's totally fine, but- Yeah... yeah, just that it's more complicated than that.
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I feel like you grow up, and you're, and you kind of learn, oh, no, cheating is, like, the worst possible thing that someone could do in a relationship, and then- Yeah...
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her idea is just kinda like, well, maybe it's not. Well, I, I think actually that's still kind of true. I do think that that's still kind of true, because cheating- Yeah... is being unfaithful. It is lying.
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Breaching trust. It is- Yeah...
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breaching trust, whereas if you're in an open relationship, you're, it's not cheating, because if there's an honesty and set parameters where everybody's already kind of agreed to, and you're within those parameters, then I don't think it's cheating.
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Like- Yeah, I think that, I, I just mean that was my first entry point into like, oh, like, is she- Just open relationships in general... open relationships in general. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because, because then,
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I don't know, I don't remember any specific episodes, but she does have people in therapy, people who've worked through cheating in their relationships, and then maybe- Well, I remember- You know?...
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like, one episode specifically where the, this couple, they have a, they have a child or children. I, I get, don't remember the details, 'cause I did not prep this before we [laughs] started talking about it.
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But I remember that, like, they have a child, and they separated, and they, but they're living together, and they're co-parenting, and they're trying to figure out their co-parenting relationship where they're not romantically together, but they're living in the same house 'cause they wanna co-parent their child.
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They wanna work through it. And at some point, Esther Perel says, "Is this working for you?" And they're like, "Well, not really." And she asked them questions, and she's like, "It sounds like this is working for you.
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What about this is not working for you?" And it's basically, like, that they're not intimate with each other, and she's like, "Just keep your relationship as it is, and just be intimate with other people then.
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Like, it sounds like everything else that's working for you is working for you. You guys are actually happy. You're just not intimate with each other, and you're missing an intimate connection.
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Can you work through being intimate with other people and just keep your co-relationship living as you are as best friends, like, really good friends?" And I just remember that being like, wow, she's suggesting this.
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That's crazy in a good way. Yeah. Anyways, this is about Orna's show, so I guess we'll... So sorry.
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[laughs] What makes couples therapy intriguing, and this is kind of the issue we were alluding to earlier about, like, online people taking up, like, online therapy- Therapy talk... or whatever. Yeah.
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B- because therapy is, is so specific and individualized, but at the same time, by, like, watching these relationship dynamics, like, there is still something universal about these patterns that show up in all of these couples, right?
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Of like- Yeah... how we all protect ourselves and seek connection and repeat the same, like, loops. Why do you find watching it compelling? Do you wanna expand on that at all? Sure.
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I mean, so- Maybe in terms of your personal takes... my personal takes.
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Yeah, so I went to school originally, like, for my undergrad and studied psych, and I thought I was, like, my goal was to be a counselor or therapist.
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But I, at the time, I don't think I really understood, like, what the pathway was to get there, so I was doing more of, like, academia.
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I was doing, like, studies and research, and at the time I was, like, applying to grad schools, not getting in, interviewing, not getting in.
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And one of my interviews for a, for PhD, a clinical psychology PhD program, she's like, "Oh, you know, this is the type of research that I'm doing."
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I think her specifically with, like, yoga and eating disorders, which, like, when I wanted to, to study clinical psychology, it was mostly with eating disordered patients, a- addressing body image as a topic.
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And so yeah, that was really interesting, and I was like, "Oh, you know, like, I'm, I'm here for research, but really my end goal is, is do counseling."
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And she's like, "Oh, well, I'm only here for people who are gonna do research, because that's how we get money. That's how we get grants. So I'm definitely not taking you."
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[laughs] And I was like, "Okay, I don't think this is for me anymore."
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[laughs] The PhD way is not the way, and I actually just, like, completely gave it up, which in hindsight, I should have just applied for, like, counseling programs, which are different than PhDs.
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But then also, like, when I wanted to do the counseling programs, they told me that I was too young coming right out of university, that I needed life experience, and that the average age of people in the program was in their late 30s, early 40s.
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And at the time- Oh... being, like, 23, I was like, "I'm not going to wait 20 years to apply and get my career that I want jump-started."
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So through that series of events, I ended up pivoting and, and doing some completely different career stuff.
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But yeah, I mean, like, since I was in my teens, I've been super, super interested in helping people and hearing, like, the vulnerable layer to their stories, and I think that shows up in my friendships and the way that I interact with people as a whole.
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I'm just very interested about learning as much about people as possible. Yeah.
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Yeah, this, like, vulnerability layer that I think keeps coming through every, every episode that we talk about is why we find people so interesting. And yeah, so- Mm-hmm...
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my sister actually introduced me to this show, [laughs] and she's like, "Have you ever seen Couples Therapy?" I'm like, "No, what's that?" And we watched one episode, and we, and then we watched five in a row.
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[laughs] So it's like, again, again, again. And they're so short. Yeah. They're so short. I'm like- Yeah, yeah... 30 minutes is not nearly enough for one episode. [laughs] I want a l- I want a limited series.
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[laughs] I want 100. [laughs] That's 100. Uh, that's like surface level, a little bit about me. What about you? Yeah, same thing. I, I think it's kinda compelling.
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There's, there's something, like, voyeuristic to it in a way, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Because you're like, it's so intimate, and you're a fly on a wall, like, somewhere that you would never be able, you know- Yeah...
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in real life to get insight- Yeah... into. Um- Yeah Yeah.
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Seeing these, like, very intimate yet, like, relatable ways that, like, couples relate to each other, and then again, like, the meta layer of watching Orna's work is super interesting- Yeah...
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just as somebody who, yeah, is interested in science and psychology and, and all that stuff as well, and just, like, how therapy actually works. That's really interesting, 'cause I feel like even her therapy itself is...
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I feel like when you traditionally think of therapy, you think of, "And how did that make you feel? And tell me about your mom, and tell me about your dad, and- Yeah... oh, tell me more." It's just, you- but she ha- she,
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I don't know, just the way that she talks, she's so good. I think that's the only way I can describe it. She's so present.
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The way that she thoughtfully r- makes people reflect on what they've said and think deeper is so natural, and you can see even in some of the sessions where, where it sounds like, you know, this was very heated.
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There's a lot of conflict going on between the couples, between Orna. This did not go well. At the end of the session they're like, "Thank you so much." I'm like, okay, what happened? This looked- Yeah...
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so emotionally taut, but- Yeah, yeah... the people, the people leave feeling really good, so she's obviously doing good work with them and making feel, people feel comfortable, which is amazing. Yeah, she's so, so good.
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Again, like you said, being present and being very compassionate. She always validates people's stories. Like, when they open up about- Mm-hmm...
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a trauma, she's always says, "That's awful that that happened to you, and I, and I'm sorry." She always starts there with like- Yeah... on a human level.
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But at the same s- s- yeah, she's just able to balance that being warm and compassionate and human, but also calm and removed at the same time.
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It's honestly, it's, I don't know, it's hard to find, my personal experience with therapy is that, and I think it's a common, it's, I've had a hard time finding a therapist that I really connect with. Yeah.
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Um, in a lot of ways because I'm kind of an asshole and I think that I'm smarter [laughs] Than your therapist? Than necessarily the... Yeah, kind of. Sometimes.
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But, like, it's definitely a me issue too, for sure, where I'll find a therapist- No, I understand. I understand. Yeah... and I'll go to them for a max five sessions- That's a lot...
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and then I'll, like, four or five, and then I'm like, okay, this isn't, I'm not, this isn't- It's not for me... anything that I... Either you're not asking me the right questions, I feel like.
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I, you're not leading it enough. Ah. I feel like I want someone to be, like, leading it more. Yeah. Or you're just giving me, like, these very, like, basic things where I'm like, yeah, well, I could've Googled that.
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I know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I'm not- I should give you my therapist, because I- Yeah...
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see her virtually, and actually, another one of my friends sees her, and she's actually really good. Because I had a similar thing. My first introduction to therapy, actually, was couples therapy, and then- Mm-hmm...
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I stopped see, stopped, we stopped seeing them, and then I was like, I need a new therapist. This is actually right after Gizmo died.
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I'm like, "I need a new therapist," and then she gave me a referral, and I saw the person for three sessions, and every session I left crying, and not feeling, like, lighter, but leaving feeling- Yeah...
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like she didn't understand me, she didn't support me. Like, I, it just, for three, I was like, after the first I told Dennis, I was like, "I'll give her three sessions and I'm out. I don't know- Yeah...
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if maybe it's just, like, I don't know what's going on." But it was three sessions. They were all horrible, and I didn't go to therapy for like two years. Yeah.
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And it was like, yeah, it, it was so bad, and then that's why when I found my new therapist, I like, "I need to do a 20-minute consult with you. I'm not wasting our time and money
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by, you know, not getting along," 'cause I feel like if I had done a consult with this other person, I probably would've known that it, it wasn't for me.
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And I think, like, pretty early on in one of the first couple sessions, I, like, told her what had happened. She was literally like, "On behalf of all therapists, I'm actually so sorry.
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That sounds so unvalidating and just horrible, and I am just so sorry you had that experience." And that's all it took, and I was just like, "Ah." [laughs] Ah. [laughs] And then, and then, yeah. Yeah.
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And then, like, I hadn't talked to a therapist about, like, Gizmo's death, which was honestly traumatic in the way that it happened, basically overnight, and, and she helped me work through it, and I was like, this is what I needed, and I, it's such a shame that it took so long, 'cause that's what I wanted, and I just couldn't get it from that first person.
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And then, yeah, and then I've been with her ever since, but she actually hasn't known me not pregnant.
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The very first session that I went with her, I was pregnant but I didn't know it, and then, yeah, so I'm like, you've never known me not this hormonal or post-hormonal.
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[laughs] It's unfortunate, because I feel, you know, even though therapy has been more and more normalized and the stigma around it is, is lessened, people are talking about it more and more, I, I find, like my peers, like you and- Yeah...
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and other people that I know. Yeah.
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But the, it still is so hard to decide to go, and then when you have that experience of, it's hard, because what I always felt was like, with the consultation, especially when you're, like, first going, I was, I was like, I don't know what therapy is.
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Mm. You know? So I don't even know what to ask. Yeah.
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And so you, I think that's why I would try so, for so long with these different therapists, 'cause I'm like, well, maybe this is what it's supposed to be, and- Yeah... I'm doing something wrong, you know? Yes, yes, yeah.
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And then, okay, this was, like, kind of fucked up, but I had a therapist break up with me. [laughs] What was her reason? Yeah.
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Because she said that she was just basically like, you're not being vulnerable enough, basically. Yeah, yeah. And she was like, she was like, we obviously just don't click, and that's, like, a, a hu- Oh.
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She was like, the number one thing of therapy is, like, you need to click with your therapist. It needs to be, like, a, a good fit, and she was like- Oh, my God...
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"I don't think we're a good fit, because, because you're not being vulnerable enough." Yeah.
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And I was like, first of all, I told you in my, like, one of my first sessions with you that, yeah, vulnerability is something I, like, struggle with, like opening up, and isn't it your job to get me to fe- feel safe enough to be...
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And I was like, I felt like I was being vulnerable. Oh, my God. I, like, cried in one of our sessions. Did you like them? Yeah. Were you, would you have broken up with them if they didn't break up with you? It probably.
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I, I think that's the thing is she was right. She was right that it wasn't the right fit, but also it was like- Delivery was not good. That delivery was not good... like it, yeah. Yeah.
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It, she was correct, but also it was, yeah, it was harsh.
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I was like- She should've approached it in terms of, she would've approached it where it was like, "Okay, I know you mentioned vulnerability is d- is difficult for you.
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You know, I, I can, I can sense that as your therapist right now. Do you think that, what do you think we could do to get there?" That would've like- Mm... just been a more
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n- nice approach instead of just, "You're not being vulnerable and I'm breaking up with you." I'm so sorry. Yeah. [laughs] That's actually, and I've, I've so many thoughts. First of all, I'm just like, "That's so rude."
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Yeah. Yeah. It was rough. It was rough. I was like, "Fuck." [laughs] What a mind fuck. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. I, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. I was like- I'm sorry, dude... I- Oh, man. Oh, yeah. It, it's good.
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I'm, I'm over it now.
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The other thing that I would struggle with is, okay, she was like upset I, because I wouldn't go into enough detail about certain stories, and because I'd be like, "No, I don't need to tell you all of the details of this thing, 'cause already know that.
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I, I'm telling you how I feel about it." Yeah. And that's where I want- You're doing the work for her, quite honestly. E- exact- exactly. I'm like, "Let's not waste time going into- Yeah... the whole story and- Yeah...
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background of this. It's, this is how I'm feeling about it right now. Let's talk through that." Yeah. You know? Yeah. But she would be like, "Well, you're not wanting to open up to me about this stuff."
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I'm like, "No, because it's not important." I don't know. Anyways. She, this feels very Orna-like, where she's, "Tell me the, tell me the gossip. Tell me the story," and you're like- Yeah... "I don't need to"...
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she's literally trying to get the tea. She's trying to get the tea. Da, da, da, da, da, da, like- That's what it sounds like... no. You're like, I, yeah. It's not that I'm not being vulnerable with you.
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You're ac- like, I just, I don't think I need to tell you every single thing that happened that made me feel this way. I can just tell you why I feel that way and give you a general- Yeah... overview. Yeah.
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Like- Like we only have 50 minutes. I'm trying to be efficient with our time here. Anyways. [laughs] Whereas I'm like completely opposite.
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I'm like, "Let me tell you everything that happened so that you can agree with me that this is shit and I should be feeling."
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[laughs] Anyways, that's why I think that Couples Therapy is kind of an important show because obviously there's like different types of therapy, but it shows like what good therapy should look like, and I think that is important for people to be able to see who have not gone to therapy before, you know?
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Yeah. As like a- Yeah... or who are struggling to find like the right fit for them. Um. Yeah, I agree. So, yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. Love it. Everyone should go to therapy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know what?
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I used to think that everyone should go to therapy, but, but I, maybe it's just since my experience with it, I'm like, I don't know if everyone should because- Mm. That's sad...
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it's become so prevalent now, which is good, but some, I just feel like maybe some people, a lot of people are out there getting therapy and they don't have the right therapist, you know? I'm like- Yeah...
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there's, there's people out there who aren't getting good therapy, and they're using therapy to continue to justify their bad behavior. Mm. You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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Has become a thing, or people who have learned how to weaponize therapy speak. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Um. I, I think that, yeah, totally... has become kind of a phenomenon. So- Mm-hmm... I'm like, I don't know.
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I, you probably do need therapy, but you're not getting the right therapy. Um, yeah. No one's calling you on your shit in therapy, which is what you need, actually. Yeah. People don't want that.
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You're not, there's some people that are just never gonna go back if, which I understand entirely. Yeah. You know? It's not fun to be called on your shit, but that's what needs to happen, so.
293
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But that's exactly, yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's exactly why you need to get called on it. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
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Let's like zoom out at like the system of the show, 'cause I feel, you know, talked about there's like these universal patterns that kinda show up across the three couples.
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I think the first one was like anxious and avoidant dynamics between Michael and McCall, which we kind of- Yeah... covered quite a bit already, but is there anything you wanted to add there? I think they just have a more
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exaggerated pattern that a lot of couples have, especially a lot of hetero couples, where the woman is doing a lot or all of the cognitive load, and the man is not doing any cognitive load.
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And cognitive load, where I mean doing the planning, doing the remembering, running the show, running their lives, running, taking care of the children, making sure that everything is done, and I think the way, yeah, how she's feeling and the way that, and that, the way that she's reacting, I think is w- an exaggerated version of what so many...
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I know it feels true for me. I, I don't, I mean, I hope I don't wash out in the way that she can sometimes just hold it together until she can no longer hold it together. Yeah.
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But, but their dynamic is, like you said earlier, super relatable, and yeah, as hard as it is to watch, you'd be like, "I'm not like them at, at all."
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It's, I'm actually more like them than I, than anyone else, [laughs] actually, I feel like. Yeah. Yeah.
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I think it's, it's hard to watch and, and the way that you watch, you're like, "Oh, no, I'm not like that," but yeah, I don't know. Upon reflection, I actually think I am. Okay.
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Well, this is kind of the thing with, it's like in every, where, where we project onto them and we're also relating to them, and it's like this parasocial thing.
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But it's also the element of psychology where it's like in every single Psych 101 class, it's like all of the students diagnose themselves with something immediately, right?
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That's like something that always happens because it's all on this like human spectrum, and like to be diagnosed with these different things, it's like you're on the, you're just, it's an extreme level of this behavior, but we all have these behaviors, you know?
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Yeah, yeah. Um, to some extent, and so that's why we get often are like, "Well, then I have this because I do this," but it's okay. Yeah.
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But this is like a very, to be diagnosed with it, like it's, it means you're at like this extreme end of- I wouldn't even say extreme, but like it has to either impact your daily life or impact others' daily lives.
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That's like essentially The bottom line.
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So if you can't function because, because your, your mind doesn't stop racing and you're always thinking about things and now you're forgetting things and, and your life is being impacted in a negative way, or your partner's life is being impacted in a negative way, and your mind can never stop racing, like maybe you do have ADHD.
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Or there are a lot of people's minds who never stop racing, and they're able to actually balance it out, and they don't feel like it's impacting them, but, but they do feel like their mind's always racing, then maybe they don't have ADHD.
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So yeah, I guess extreme is also the case, but it also has that self-diagnosis or familial diagnosis piece of like, it has to be affecting you in your daily life.
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That's what's tricky in, in how I try and conceptualize it though. It's like, how do you... That's so subjective, isn't it? Mm-hmm.
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Like, so to, to diagnose it is very much, I don't know, it just feels subjective to me or relative to you specifically. I think a lot of people can be diagnosed with it, but it... it's still a spectrum, like you said.
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I think some people can have- Right... crippling anxiety and some people have, have anxiety that's not debilitating, but it's still anxiety. Right.
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I guess that's what, part of what makes just like mental health as a concept and a topic so interesting, is that it's so personal and nuanced and so hard. Y- 'cause you can't be in someone else's head. Mm-hmm. You know?
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Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know. I know the stat, it's like one in five, I think Canadians have a mental... They have a diagnosis, one in five. I- Yeah...
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think it's 95 out of 100 because [laughs] I think everybody has something, and it's just- Totally... to what level and when do they find out? That's my non-professional theory. Yeah.
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So then is it just, that's just the human experi- part of the human experience then. I think so. To deal- I think so... with these things. Just like everyone gets a cold, you know?
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Everyone- And at what time, then how severe. Yeah. A- and so much of mental health is genetic. If we have a lot of mental health diagnoses right now, it's just because we're catching them.
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If your parents are also have these genetics, like they, we have a lot of depression, well- Yeah... so did the other generation. They just, they just weren't seeking the help, or they just weren't- Right...
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they were coping in different ways or they, you know, it- Right... the rates are not on the rise.
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I think everyone just has a better understanding and a, a better acceptance of seeking help and seeking ways to cope in professional ways. So I think it is 95 out of 100. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.
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Being one of that 95- That's okay... I feel like [laughs] But same. Yeah. But same. Yeah. And I feel like, I mean, to all of my friends and family who are listening to this, [laughs] no offense, but I- [laughs]...
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open myself in this, but I'm just like, yeah, I have gone through periods of being like looking around and being like, "Oh, like everyone in my life is [laughs]..."
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You know, not that it's a bad thing, but I think before I had- It's not bad because we're all doing it. We all have it. We're all coping- Yeah... in different ways. Yeah. It's normal. Yeah, yeah. It's normal. Yeah. Okay.
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Okay, so Matthew and Gianni, I think that their pattern is kind of more... I mean, they have anxious avoidant dyna- dynamics as well, but- Theirs was also hard for me to read.
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Even watching it back, I was like, I don't know who is pulling away, and I can't tell who... I couldn't tell. It was very hard for me to get a read on them.
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I think with them it was so much about like specifically Matthew's- Matthew... like- Trauma... shame. Yeah, trauma, like his shame around his sexuality and his- Recovery from alcohol and then- And his recovery... yeah.
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Yeah. That it, it was so much... It was almost more about the work that he had to do. Mm-hmm. And, and that obviously impacts his relationship with Gianni, but it was less about...
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I, like, I think couples therapy obviously helped them understand each oth- how each other more for sure, and how each of them were reacting to this trauma. Like Matthew needed to understand how his trauma
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also impacted Gianni. Like he couldn't really empathize that way, I think. But, and it helped through therapy to get him there. They were different because it's so much more focused on, on Matthew's stuff.
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I feel like a lot of the conversations we saw were focused on Matthew, but you still, Gianni is not a passive participant- No... in the sessions, right? Yeah. Like he is very resentful and- Yeah...
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has a lot of strong feelings. Without putting pressure on Matthew's sobriety, but as a partnership, he is very much frustrated, upset. Like he has a lot of feelings about how he wants Matthew to show up for him.
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But like in order to get to that, there's so much work that Matthew has to still unpack on his own before he can, they can even start- Yeah... regulating Gianni. And then at the same time, Gianni's like- Yeah...
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"But it's still impacting me, and I'm still here dealing with- Right, right... our current state." And I'm like, "Oh man, that's so hard." Yeah. No, I think that, that summarizes it well. And then, then they- Yeah...
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also have this kind of codependency between them where- Mm-hmm... I mean, at one point Matthew says that Gianni's like the only reason he's sober, and I'm like, that is so much pressure to put on- Yeah... one person.
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But then he later complains about the pressure that he's the reason that Gianni is staying in the US, 'cause Gianni is Italian and can't travel to Italy because he won't be allowed back 'cause it's COVID, all this stuff.
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Yeah. So he complains about that pressure, but you are the, the pressure you're putting on him is the only reason that you're sober. That's intense. That's really intense. Yeah. Yeah.
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Um- Well, then Gianni, I mean, oh man, I don't even know if I wanna go down that rabbit hole, but yeah, he's, "Yeah, I can't have a drink."
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And I'm like, well, no, you're, you're with somebody who's in active recovery and, and will be in active recovery- Yeah... probably for the rest of their life. Forever, yeah. That's part of supporting them.
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Yeah, it's just so hard. It's so hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's putting his- Yeah, there's just like a denial there too probably, right? Okay, Teshira and Drew, I feel like we- Unpacked already...
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kind of covered, d- unpacked them, yeah. Yeah. The resentment to self-protection thing. And, and they seem to get-
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The end, like she really has a breakthrough, at least it seems so on the show Yeah, it seemed like that to me too Learning to let her guard down Oh, yes Because, because he buys her a puppy, so I'll let my guard down, buy, bought a puppy too.
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[laughs] I know. I know. Which first of all, I'm like, okay, I'm glad she's happy about it.
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I'm like, I don't think just, had discussed this prior to, I don't know, 'cause she already feels like she's doing everything, and things have been thrust upon her.
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[laughs] And now [laughs] Here's a puppy for you to take care of as well. [laughs] Oh my God. I, yeah- But she, it made her happy and brought them closer together, so power to them, I guess.
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[laughs] Well, and to add, this is still reflective of COVID too. Everyone was getting puppies during COVID. [laughs] Yes. Yes. Yeah.
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And, and I just wanna say, this is my personal opinion, but I do not think pets make good gifts. I'm like, this is not a good gift. Really, it's my dream. It's my dream.
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[laughs] I have a dream that I, that Dennis will surprise me with a puppy one day. [laughs] It's a Barb thing. I tell him every- Okay, okay. That's fair...
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every Christmas and every birthday, I'm like, "Am I gonna get a puppy?" And he's like, "No."
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[laughs] If it's some- if it's something you've specifically asked for, then sure, but don't spring a living being onto somebody. [laughs] Yeah. I don't know.
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[laughs] And like this is just like- No, I, I do understand...
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how the, why there's so many dogs in the shelter system, 'cause people get these dogs when they're cute little puppies, and then don't have a full idea of what this dog's gonna turn into, you know? They're a lot of work.
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Yeah, they are actually. Yeah. Okay. So to get into the big picture of it all, of what couples therapy reveals about the world beyond the couch. Ooh. [laughs] Just as the systems [laughs]
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of therapy in general, I think, I mean, the first thing with mental health resources and, and, a- and therapy is there is an access problem. It's expensive. It's time-consuming.
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There's a lot of cultural stigma around it still. Well, and like you said, it's hard to find a counselor that you jive with too.
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Like even, even once you're ready, you have the resources, you have the time, you're being vulnerable enough to put yourself out there and, and talk about the hardest stuff that you're experiencing, you, then you have to find somebody who you get along with and want to disclose all that to.
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Yeah, it's, there's so many barriers. But I do think the show normalizes just the process of therapy, which I think is important, a- and especially because they have such a diverse cast too. Yeah.
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They show a lot of different couples from different backgrounds and everything, and I think that's important for people of different backgrounds to see, where it's, oh, no, therapy isn't just for a certain type of person or whatever.
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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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You know, I think seeing that the problems that people who come from different backgrounds than you or in a different type of relationship than you are, like, all really kind of fundamentally the same, it just, like, humanizes
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people who are different from you, which I think is also- Yeah... important. I agree.
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And then I did, I, I did really wanna note, because this season, season two specifically, happens during COVID, so they have to rely on, like, telehealth or remote therapy for a portion of it. Yeah.
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Um, and it's, like, Orna frames it kind of as detrimental to the process, but I actually think, like, telehealth therapy has really boomed post-COVID, and I think it's actually made therapy a lot more accessible.
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Like you said, you go remotely with your therapist as well, don't you? Oh, yeah.
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I mean, I, like when everything went remote in 2020, like school was online, that had never been, like, so mainstream before, and yeah, I mean, it totally under- I bet, I bet her take is different now too six years later.
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Like, I bet her take is, "Oh, that was a really good, that was really good." Right.
367
00:58:26.092 --> 00:58:34.112
Because yeah, I actually- It, it's just- I've done in-session therapy, like in-person therapy and virtual therapy, and I actually like in-person therapy a lot better.
368
00:58:34.152 --> 00:58:40.852
But since I've moved, trying to get to my therapist, who's like an hour drive away, is impossible. I'm not doing that.
369
00:58:40.892 --> 00:58:48.872
I'm not spending three and a half hours of my time to, for a 50-minute appointment, like however many times a month I need it. So virtual- Yeah...
370
00:58:48.882 --> 00:58:52.772
has actually been a huge lifesaver that I can do my sessions still with her.
371
00:58:52.812 --> 00:59:00.811
I don't have to change therapists, 'cause if I had to change therapists, I probably wouldn't be going, and it would probably be another reason, but I would say, "I, I really need to go.
372
00:59:00.892 --> 00:59:09.612
I really wanna go, but, but, but..." So yeah, for me personally, huge lifesaver that, that I can do that virtually. But it isn't the same. Mm-hmm. It, it's not.
373
00:59:09.672 --> 00:59:20.452
I'm actually really, really thankful that I did a couple sessions with her in person, so, like, we have still that... There's just that in-person vibe, and it's better, but this is still the best, second best.
374
00:59:20.492 --> 00:59:31.012
I'd rather do virtual with somebody who I trust than in person with somebody [laughs] who I don't know. We're gonna stray from season two for a little bit, but what did you think about, did you watch season five? Yes.
375
00:59:31.532 --> 00:59:41.372
Okay. Super interesting, where one of the couples, it's like [laughs] the guy is like conservative Republican, the girl is Democrat.
376
00:59:41.862 --> 00:59:52.272
They're like ex- and that's extremely explicit and an issue that they state in the relationship. Is it Marjorie? And- Marjorie and Jason. Jason. And Jason. Yeah.
377
00:59:52.352 --> 01:00:03.572
And yeah, at one point Jason just [laughs] starts saying, where he's, "Oh, I just type in all of my problems into ChatGPT and, and, and into AI and, and he, they just validate me and make me feel so much better."
378
01:00:03.622 --> 01:00:07.282
And I was like, oh, you're naming the thing that's happening. [laughs] Yeah.
379
01:00:07.292 --> 01:00:16.132
And he's like, "Marjorie doesn't support me and my wife doesn't support me, and I need someone to support me, so I'm gonna get it from this AI." And I'm like, ooh. [laughs] I know that people are doing this.
380
01:00:16.232 --> 01:00:21.352
I know that this is a thing, but like we can't use robots for that. We can't, we can't. No.
381
01:00:21.572 --> 01:00:30.372
Speaking of bad therapists, it's like what we were saying earlier about therapists that just validate, like only validate you and don't push back at all against you.
382
01:00:30.432 --> 01:00:34.592
It's, yeah, that's, that's why people go into AI psychosis.
383
01:00:34.732 --> 01:00:44.892
It's because they're just having what become eventually, like, delusions validated by this, like, all-knowing thing, and you know, that's what like- I, you're teaching me something new every episode.
384
01:00:44.972 --> 01:00:56.000
I have never heard the term- I know [laughs]... AI psychosis So this is just, it's just my job. I- [laughs] My job is to read the news all day long and be chronically online. [laughs] So it, it, that's, that's all it is.
385
01:00:56.060 --> 01:01:01.900
It's [laughs] you're just- Yeah... a normal, healthy person. [laughs] Okay. Is it like, okay, so from what I, what...
386
01:01:02.060 --> 01:01:15.150
I, before I cut you off, so it sounds like you're using AI so much that y- you're, yeah, you're separated from true reality, or, or what, what even is it? Um, yeah. It's, yeah, exactly. It's like you- Okay...
387
01:01:15.150 --> 01:01:28.590
are- Jesus... it, it can... Yeah, yeah. It rem- it removes you from reality and, and it can also, like, yeah, feed into your delusions, right? 'Cause it's like, you'll say something and be like, "What about this?"
388
01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:33.840
And, and it'll be like, "Yeah, no, you're totally right. That is a weird thing for that person to say." [laughs] I don't know.
389
01:01:34.160 --> 01:01:52.060
But again, why couples therapy is so important, because it shows Orna as a human being, but that is a more effective way to give therapy than this, like, all-knowing robot, because the robot doesn't understand nuance, and also it's been designed to keep you using it.
390
01:01:52.140 --> 01:02:03.980
It has its own algorithm. It has its own meta- It's really just harvesting data from you. [laughs] It's not really- Correct... there to, like, people are turning to it for... I, I don't know.
391
01:02:04.020 --> 01:02:14.730
And, like, it just, it's- I see the temptation... yeah, it's outsourcing, it's the outsourcing of emotional labor to AI, and but that's not true intimacy, and that's just gonna further fuel
392
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:26.280
our, like, the loneliness epidemic, and, like, it's gonna make mental health worse, I think, actually. Oh, hon- it's definitely making it worse. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, I think, I think the, what is it?
393
01:02:26.350 --> 01:02:40.100
Recipe, the antidote to loneliness, yeah, is connection, and we need human connection or dog connection. I don't know. We need, we need a living being connection. Like, I, I actually think there's a lot of value to pets.
394
01:02:40.200 --> 01:02:52.280
Pets really do- Oh... make that- For sure... like, I, I don't know how to put that into words, but I, I do think pets are, are great. A- and- But pets teach you presence, you know? You can just be present with them.
395
01:02:52.740 --> 01:03:03.880
And also, like, depending on your pet, there is that unconditional love that they can provide. They look to you. Yeah. I, I know there are some real awful pets, but, but you love them for it anyways. I don't know.
396
01:03:03.990 --> 01:03:11.760
[laughs] It's just- Well- Yeah... it, it's a way that you build your own self-worth by taking care of something, you know? There you go. It's, yeah. Yeah.
397
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:21.460
And, and I think a good, and I think that also translates to, yeah, taking care of the relationships of real people in your life. Like- Jason and Marjorie, again, like, they're from Season 5, the most recent season.
398
01:03:21.600 --> 01:03:23.860
Because they really start, uh... 'Cause they knew what they were doing.
399
01:03:23.909 --> 01:03:32.920
The editors knew what they were doing by, like, I think they're the very first conversation that you see, and it's, and they're talking about their political differences. Yeah. And I was like, let's go.
400
01:03:32.980 --> 01:03:45.340
This is fascinating. I'm like, how can you be married to somebody who has such fundamentally different values than you? I'm like, okay. Yeah. What is... Because maybe there's just something I...
401
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:56.820
I, I was just excited to learn about that dynamic and I don't feel like we really learned that much about. They just don't talk about politics, and that's how they remain harmonious.
402
01:03:56.880 --> 01:04:05.770
They're just like, "Well, we just don't talk- Well-... about that anymore." And it's, well, but, like, she kind of tries to get them there through being like, "Do you guys know what matters to each other?"
403
01:04:06.060 --> 01:04:13.050
I did like that part of it. Why are these political, why are these things important, even though we don't agree with them? Why is it important- Yeah... to my partner, kind of? Yeah.
404
01:04:13.220 --> 01:04:22.960
I, I think that, and I, but actually, I think that's, I think that is how you approach it. I think if you fundamentally- Yeah... don't see eye to eye, then you're not gonna find a common ground.
405
01:04:23.180 --> 01:04:35.230
So I think actually the way to approach it- Yeah... when your values are so different is to be like, can I understand, like, if I don't understand the approach, can I understand what they believe in, what they think?
406
01:04:35.450 --> 01:04:48.390
'Cause at one point I think she, they ask Marjorie, like, why she is so liberal, and she, she starts talking about how she definitely, like, how marginalized people are extremely vulnerable and mistreated.
407
01:04:48.580 --> 01:04:56.120
What's happening with ICE and everything. Yeah. And she's really scared about, about that, and Jason just starts going off, and he's, "Ah, that's what happening. That's what what's happening.
408
01:04:56.280 --> 01:05:04.300
This is why it's important," da, da, and Orna's, "Okay, no, no, no. Are you listening to the feelings? Do you see why she's scared? Do you see where her empathy is coming from? Can you understand that?"
409
01:05:04.370 --> 01:05:10.960
And he's like, "Yeah." She's like, "That's what you need to do. If you don't agree with the actions, can you understand your partner's perspective as to why they're feeling the way they are?"
410
01:05:11.160 --> 01:05:22.550
And I actually think that's the on- I think that's the only way you, you can approach that. Because if you're not gonna change your political views or your values, th- then you are just gonna argue. I get it.
411
01:05:22.550 --> 01:05:33.240
I get it for some of them. I, I, I personally need to be with somebody who is aligned in my values. Yeah. Friendships and especially as a romantic partner, so it's difficult for me. Yeah. Same.
412
01:05:33.250 --> 01:05:42.980
I'm just like- Some people do shift their values, too. It's, I don't know, maybe my partner or my friends will swing the other way, and maybe my gut reaction shouldn't just be, "I'm gonna cut you off now."
413
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:51.180
[laughs] I know. It's hard. It's so hard, though, because I'm just projecting on it too much, for sure, but for me, it's just like, how can I... I, I feel like
414
01:05:52.120 --> 01:06:03.600
for him, I'm like, I can understand why you think this way, and the reason is- Yeah... 'cause you don't think it's ever gonna impact you, and you don't have empathy for other people, you know? Kinda right, though.
415
01:06:03.660 --> 01:06:14.460
Like, it isn't impacting him. I, it isn't, but so then, but he just doesn't care that it's- Yeah... you know? Yeah. I don't know. It's just, to me, I'm like, that's very fundamentally...
416
01:06:14.500 --> 01:06:23.810
And, and, and he, not, he actually- Well, even for him, actually, at one point he says, "I think it's gonna make things better. I believe it's gonna make things better." And even though I don't agree with what- Right...
417
01:06:23.810 --> 01:06:29.310
with what his values are, like, I can see where he's coming from if he, if he thinks that things are gonna be better. Like- Yeah. Right. Right...
418
01:06:29.340 --> 01:06:36.480
they're not, but I, but I understand that that's what he believes, so okay, I get that. So I don't know. Right. Yeah, I guess that has to be the starting point.
419
01:06:36.660 --> 01:06:46.200
It was useful for them to include, but yeah, that's, it's tough. I think that's also a relationship that I'm sure a lot of people can relate to. Yeah. A, a dynamic. Um, probably. Yeah. Yeah, totally.
420
01:06:46.640 --> 01:06:58.009
Okay, one other thing I wanted to mention about Orna on the Las Culturistas podcast was- And I, I meant to go back and listen to it because I listened to it before I re-watched season two. Mm-hmm.
421
01:06:59.420 --> 01:07:09.030
So I'm pretty sure this is who she's talking about, but I don't remember for sure. In Las Culturistas, they talk to her a l- a lot about the edit and- Mm...
422
01:07:09.080 --> 01:07:21.320
what she's learned about, like, the audience's reaction to these people, because it is something that's so vulnerable and intimate that, that they're participating in, how careful they have to be with the edit.
423
01:07:21.340 --> 01:07:29.800
And, you know, we've talked a lot about the edit in our other episodes and how the edit is used to craft these characters- Yeah... out of real people.
424
01:07:30.280 --> 01:07:37.700
Except in the other shows, I think there's more of an understanding of that's what they're participating in for the most part. Um- Ooh, I don't agree, but okay.
425
01:07:37.740 --> 01:07:46.430
[laughs] I think the more seasoned of reality players they become, maybe not when they're new to it, but- Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah... the more shows they're on, I, I think there's more understanding to it. Yeah, yeah.
426
01:07:46.600 --> 01:07:57.770
And I think she references, I think it's Michael, maybe it's Drew, but I'm pretty sure it's Michael, where she talks about the audience's reaction to him was very, like, negative, and he is seen,
427
01:07:58.820 --> 01:08:05.800
he was seen as, like, the villain. And she, I'm pretty sure she said she's like- Oh... "And we learned a lot from that because I think that we
428
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:18.300
didn't include enough nuance about him in the edit, that he came off a certain way that actually didn't get into all of, didn't make him as, like, sympathetic to the audience as maybe it should have."
429
01:08:18.510 --> 01:08:21.750
And Drew, I think it was Michael. I think it was Michael. You learn, like this was Michael and Michelle, right?
430
01:08:22.100 --> 01:08:27.540
Yeah, so it's like you learn about why she is the way she is because of her relationship with her mom, but you don't learn about- Mm-hmm...
431
01:08:27.620 --> 01:08:33.100
why he is the way he is, 'cause you just assume it's how he's reacting to Michelle. Yeah, I think so.
432
01:08:33.280 --> 01:08:44.310
Okay, after watching Couples Therapy as a show, just as a show and not with your own experience, do you think you would recommend couples therapy to, as a- Ooh... practice to people? Not the show.
433
01:08:44.660 --> 01:08:54.390
Wait, after watching the show, would I recommend couples therapy to people? Yeah. Couples therapy, lowercase. [laughs] Not the product. Honestly, I think it depends after watching the show. On what?
434
01:08:54.680 --> 01:09:01.040
How much you're willing to change, how much you're willing to listen to your partner outside of the therapy sessions.
435
01:09:01.299 --> 01:09:09.560
'Cause you can do a lot of listening when there's a third party involved, and you can go straight back to your bad habits or not wanting to do the work. I, if you're willing to do the work, I think it's worth it.
436
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:18.510
If you're not willing to do the work outside of the sessions, then I don't think it's worth it, which I think is what we see with a lot of couples therapy with capital. [laughs] Right. Right.
437
01:09:18.560 --> 01:09:28.760
Like, wh- when they're into sessions and when they're held accountable, they're showing up, and then, but then again, behind closed doors, it's, "This is too hard." And it is hard. It's so hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
438
01:09:28.820 --> 01:09:39.160
You have to constantly be working on it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And catching yourself, and then, but then- Mm... especially because then the other person needs to be doing it, too, and, like- Yeah. Yeah.
439
01:09:39.420 --> 01:09:50.220
You can't, you can't- You both have to buy in... fix it for... What about you? I think that, that couples therapy shouldn't be viewed as just this thing that people do when it's, like, as a last resort. Need to save.
440
01:09:50.510 --> 01:09:59.740
Yeah. Yeah. As, like, I think it can be used as just to, like, maintenance on a relationship, you know? It's like, I think it's t- That's how it should be used, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
441
01:10:00.080 --> 01:10:13.420
It's, I feel like we're getting to a spot where we're not communicating, and let's go have someone help mediate that before it gets to a point of contempt, which is, you can't come back from, basically. Yeah. Um- Yeah.
442
01:10:13.480 --> 01:10:24.950
Totally. Yeah. I'm thinking a fun thing to end on would be doing a quick round game of going through different relationship tropes or themes- Ooh, yes, yes. This is good... and being like which one each of us are.
443
01:10:25.180 --> 01:10:34.980
Okay, so first, attachment style. Wait, wait, before we do it, I, I think we're gonna be very similar. Probably. I do think they'll be similar. Okay, let's start with- Yeah... attachment styles. What are you?
444
01:10:35.120 --> 01:10:49.240
I'm anxious-avoidant. It's the- Same... the worst risk you could be. [gasps] You are, too? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That makes me feel so much better. [laughs] It is the worst one. I told my, I told my [laughs]
445
01:10:50.100 --> 01:11:05.980
one of our friends, and he was like, "[gasps] That's really bad." [laughs] And I was like, "Don't blame me. I didn't do anything. It was my parents." [laughs] Oh, man. Yeah, yeah, that push/pull. I, yeah, so. Wow.
446
01:11:06.400 --> 01:11:18.460
We're gonna take this offline. [laughs] Okay, love languages, what's your, what's your love language? Probably all of them. [laughs] But- Yeah... I don't know.
447
01:11:18.500 --> 01:11:29.460
I, I feel like the one that, like, gets me the most is acts of service. Same. Yeah. But it ha- has to be acts of service in the way that I want. It can't just be, "I'm doing this."
448
01:11:29.480 --> 01:11:35.400
I'm like, that's not, that's not helpful for me. I need acts of service as, like, specifically... I'm trying to think.
449
01:11:35.460 --> 01:11:52.420
A lot of times Dennis does a lot of the, the meal prepping and the cooking, which is huge acts of service, but then when he makes a meal that I don't like, 'cause we, our taste profiles are completely different, we literally don't like the same food almost at all, I'm like, "[sighs] I know you did the cooking, but, like, I don't really like it."
450
01:11:52.480 --> 01:12:02.580
[laughs] I have a really hard time with that, because if you made a dinner that you knew I would like, then that's an act of service that I would like, but it's hard. [laughs] Yeah.
451
01:12:03.090 --> 01:12:06.700
I, yeah, to me, acts of service is, like, something, like, kind of
452
01:12:07.900 --> 01:12:17.450
above and beyond that they, like, didn't have to do, but they do it for you because they know that it would make your life easier, even if it's just a little, you know? Something- Yeah... even if it's something small.
453
01:12:18.150 --> 01:12:25.600
Um- Yeah. Yeah. What's yours? Oh, wait, let me guess yours. Well, I know, I, I don't think yours is words of affirmation. No. Is it quality time?
454
01:12:26.080 --> 01:12:36.040
Well, I, I actually think acts of service is mine, too, but quality time- Oh... is probably, I would say quality time, but then, which I think communication is important- [laughs] I feel like I need a break.
455
01:12:36.980 --> 01:12:46.540
Yeah, I'm like, I also really like my alone time, so I think it's [laughs] acts of service. [laughs] That's so funny. Maybe that's just being married. Maybe that's just being married. Oh. You're like, "Acts of service.
456
01:12:46.600 --> 01:13:00.708
Everything else, I don't give a fuck." [laughs] "Leave me alone. Do not touch me." Yeah, Dylan's just 1000% the physical touch [laughs] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time.
457
01:13:02.628 --> 01:13:13.708
[laughs] Constantly I'm like, he like needs to be hugged constantly. [laughs] And he'll just like always just be like, I'll be like doing something in the kitchen and I'll turn around and he's just like in my way.
458
01:13:13.748 --> 01:13:24.908
And I'm like, I don't- [laughs] Fierce... I'm doing something right now. [laughs] So- You're in my way. [laughs] Okay. Well, there's some other ones.
459
01:13:25.288 --> 01:13:39.768
The, the rest are, these aren't really like this or that, but I guess we can just say it if we are these or not. Okay. People pleaser? Yeah. I think I probably am too, but less so than, than you.
460
01:13:40.628 --> 01:13:54.528
[laughs] I actually don't think I am. No? I actually don't think I am. I, I- Yeah, no. It's hard for me to say for you, 'cause I'm like, we haven't gotten in any conflicts.
461
01:13:54.548 --> 01:14:05.148
And I feel like normally when I think of people who aren't people pleasers, that they're not afraid of getting in conflict. But I don't think, maybe it's just 'cause we're 100% compatible, so we just don't. I'm avoidant.
462
01:14:05.298 --> 01:14:20.918
That's the, like avoidant side is, but that's not people pleasing, that's just avoiding conflict. But I'm not doing it so that that person gets what they want. You know what I mean? I'm not just like- Oh, okay. Okay.
463
01:14:20.968 --> 01:14:29.638
Okay. I don't always peo- I, I feel like similar to that though. I feel like I'm a people pleaser, but I would consider not addressing something,
464
01:14:30.608 --> 01:14:36.828
and there's lots of, there's, there's people who I don't address stuff with, and I would consider that as part of people pleasing, to not rock the boat and not do it that way.
465
01:14:37.548 --> 01:14:51.468
I don't always give people what they want, but I try to. [laughs] Sometimes I just fail, and I know that's unacceptable. [laughs] But I don't, and then I talk about it in therapy.
466
01:14:52.678 --> 01:15:06.328
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01:15:15.208 --> 01:15:25.948
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