Your Hiring Problem Might Actually Be a Clarity Problem | Keith Turner Jr

Sheldon J. Andrus III: Irresistible leaders, welcome back to the podcast. Hey, listen, you've heard this before. If you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. And I'm excited to introduce you to the community. Some of you may even know already who he is if you've been following us on social media or on Instagram, all that good stuff. But at this point in the Andres Advisory Story, we have added a phenomenal new teammate to help us go further. After over a decade at one of the world's largest companies. We're talking about trillions of dollars, not billions of dollars. After an almost ⁓ which is now, I think, just turned 50 years old this year, an absolutely iconic brand that he's been a part of for the last decade. He's taken the leap of faith and joined us here at Andrus Advisory to oversee our right seat search and staffing division. And I want introduce all of my friends at Irresistible Leader to our phenomenal community to welcome Keith Turner Junior to the podcast. Appreciate you, bro. What's up, man? I'm glad to be here. Bro, we're so honored to have you. You know, I think people who don't know, this is a friendship over a decade and then making actually longer. ⁓ and we went to college together in Ohio. Been knowing you for a long time. Know me for a long time. He's got embarrassing photos. If you if you see him on Instagram, he'll show the I have quite a few. That's crazy. Equal. So let's not start nothing that won't be finished, okay? ⁓ yeah, you're on the touche, touche. But no, I've known Keith and his phenomenal family ⁓ for over a decade. And Keith, I'm so honored that you would see the value ⁓ in what we're building here, not just in the irresistible leader community, but within Andrew's advisory to ⁓ kind of let this interrupt the the story that God is writing in your life. So man, we're incredibly honored talking to the family. Yeah, super thankful, right? Like, you know, ⁓ I you were an answer to a prayer like that I had no idea of, right? And I think, you know, let me just quickly encourage some people that, you know, God is super intentional about every season of your life, right? And so even when you don't always understand, ⁓ you know, he's intentional. And so this is a very intentional moment. And I'm super, super thankful to be here and ⁓ do some do some great work. Well man, listen, you already are off to the races, killing it, past Meeting with pastors all across the country and their teams, trying to figure out how to get the right people in the right seat. Right. ⁓ which which we we'll talk about a little bit. We'll talk about all the work we've been doing, and I think it's beautiful. But your story, man, is absolute one that only God can write. Right. ⁓ absolute one that only can wr God can write after 10 years at Apple, which I don't I think we've said this. We probably said it five times. Right. Because it's it's so impressive. Hear me, it's so incredibly impressive ⁓ to get a front row seat to ⁓ To to a business that we preach sermon titles and and and and analogies around. I say all the time that only Apple users go to heaven. It's so totally sacrilegious. I was saving a lot of people though. Praise the Lord for a salvation, right? Come on over, right? We don't what you're doing. ⁓ we don't quite know what you're doing. Come over. It's all We love them anyhow. It's okay. It's all right. But I say that to say Not only were you this phenomenal marketplace leader in mind and had exposure to the absolute highest levels of operational excellence within an ecosystem that is culture defining for ⁓ those of you not just in America I we got people watching Irresistible from Nigeria and South America and Canada. So ⁓ and they're Apple devices all over shout out to them right in our and so I say that to say but not only that right now I think if that was only the if that was your whole story it's still impressive. Right. But to only to not to also hear that you are a man of God, that you've walked with God, that you've developed a relationship with God, which has produced fruit in your own life as it relates to being a pastor. So you are a you are a bivocational Yes, very much And so you're not only leading a local church, a thriving local church, but you're also ⁓ Up until recently, we're a full time employee at this gigantic tech firm. Right. There's I'm wanna have a conversation today. And most of you clicked on this because you saw Ministry in Apple or Church in Apple, and you're like, wait, what? Those two things don't go in the same sentence. ⁓ but they do. ⁓ but they do. And so today I wanna have a conversation because I wanna get in your brain. Right. I wanna get in your brain. Like we're all enamored by the success story that is Apple. Yeah. And the team and the products. And most of us are watching right now on a on an iPhone or an Apple device. You like we got one in our orbit. keeping my ⁓ stock high, you know, and all that good stuff, right? Inadvertently, we appreciate you. Needed that, you know? And so I wanna I wanna, there's gotta be, after being there ten years, some extrapolation that you can help our community apply as it relates to surprising, shocking, unthought of things that apply to church leadership. That Apple taught you. Because most people don't go to Apple for church leadership. And maybe they should. ⁓ we're going to then really maybe they should. And let me just preface by saying this. I think that, you know, when you do allow the Lord to actually, you know, guide your steps, right? Like every season he put you in, like you're gonna be able to look back and pull back from, you know, some of those some of those previous seasons. And so, yeah, there's a lot of things that Apple taught me that as I was just watching and learning and examining how they do what they do, ⁓ I was like, ⁓ my goodness, this is there's ministry here, here's ministry here, ⁓ here's a way we could be successful here. ⁓ and so, you know, I may not be able to give all the keys. Maybe maybe it should be a book or something else. Like maybe so. But anyways, but but there are a few things that I definitely think, you know, ⁓ could be beneficial. I think one of the first ones, like it's not necessarily surprising, but I do think that it will help ministry and ministry leaders define what success could look like. Like success begins and ends in culture. Right? Like that that culture really matters. And Apple did an incredible and does an incredible job of protecting their culture. So so here's what I mean by that. There was a study that was done like some years ago that says that in order to get a job at Apple, right? Well let me not say in order, but getting a job at Apple is About on the same scale of difficulty of getting into Stanford. Wow. So statistics say that to get into Stanford, they they choose about three and a half to four percent of people who apply. Wow. Like you can't just get online, go to Apple.com and think that because you are good at sales, that they're automatically gonna hire you. Matter of fact, they turn down really good people to get great people. So that wait, wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is all a part of the ministry. Listen, they turned down they turned down good people. Right. And I'm not saying they always get it right, right? Like I've worked with people over the years that was like, okay, maybe maybe you know a few got through, right? You know. But no, like and some people I've talked to and they're like, Keith, like I interviewed so well and they they they they turned me down. It's like they're very particular, and I think this is very important for for leaders. They didn't just hire for charisma and personality. I like to think I'm a personality. I'm I'm I like to think he's a personality. I think that but they they they hired for competencies. They they hired like there were some points where I was interviewing for higher positions that they asked me questions I could not answer on the spot. It's like mmm, ma maybe I'm not as ready as I as I think that I am, right? And so it's not just charisma, and I think sometimes we super spiritualize in the ministry space. We super spiritualize a gifting. ⁓ they can preach really well. They must be a good executive pastor. That's not necessarily meaning just because they can preach well means that they have the skills and the competencies to lead well, right? So Apple is is very selective. And I think if we become more selective, we may be able to go a little bit further. But on top of that, it's just different. Like when I first started with Apple, they clapped us in. Right? Like you don't just show up like no, when you walk into orientation, they're clapping for you. It it's different. And then when you leave, if you're not fired, if you're not fired, ⁓ when you leave, they clap you out. Wow. So I literally when I was leaving one of my retail stores, I spent about five minutes with people just clapping out. I was giving them all hugs because it's a part of our culture. So what to many is extra is really good culture. So people would they would be like walking by as we were clapping people out, they're like, why are they so extra? Yeah. When really what they could be asking is why are they so good? Why do people stay there for a long period of time? Right. I think Tim J I mean Tim Cook was just recently talking about how turnover is not a big thing in like high executive type of roles with Apple. Because people want to be there. They want to keep changing the world. So it starts with culture. And I know again, that's that may not be surprising, but the way of which they build culture and the way they're super selective. really helps with their overall success. Let me layer on that because I absolutely love that. So after your 10 career 10 year career at Apple, you started with this idea of culture. And I and let me, you know, I'm gonna play I'm gonna play Apple to Ministry Translator in this conversation. Because I think for a lot of leaders, the word culture is a buzzword, right? Because it means a bunch of different things and there's a bunch of different ideas come to your mind. Absolutely. Let me give you irresistible leader, let me give you ⁓ some handles to understand when we say when we say culture, ⁓ in our in our context, we're talking about the beliefs Actions, behaviors, and languages that define belonging. Beliefs, actions, behaviors, and languages that define belonging. In your organization, in your church, in your business, in the place in which God has called you to lead, your job is to protect the belief, actions. Languages and behaviors that define who you are. So I one of the biggest messages you just said is if it's extra, it's probably culture. Yep. Because it means this is how we do it. It's the only way we do it. We don't do it any other way. No other way. And so I think one of the keys to being an effective and an irresistible leader is this idea that my culture of the place that I'm leading is not random. It is not subject to my personality. It's not subject to anyone else. It's defined, it's written, and it exists in a place where we can duplicate it across. Apple, a hundred and I think it's I Googled it, 160,000 employees. How do you get 160,000 people to do anything the same unless you're writing it down and watch this reinforcing it at every single juncture? Last thing, irresistible, or you need to know, and Keith has learned this at Apple: culture begins at confrontation. Absolutely. It is not culture until you're willing to confront it. And so I'm sure as you went throughout your time at Apple, there were moments of your leadership there where you had to confront. people to say, hey, that's not how we do it at Apple. That's not the Apple way. I don't know what the phrase was, but it's feedback, right? Feedback a culture of feedback. A culture of feedback. You've gotta listen, if you cannot look at somebody and say, that's not how we do it or it's impact or behavior in impact. Here's what you did, here's how it impacted this customer. Here's what you did, here's how it impacted your coworker. Yeah. You told this customer this, and that's not what we do. And so now they're expecting things that sh they shouldn't expect. Behavior and impact. And it's not about feelings, it's about behavior and impact. And it and it's really beneficial. And I learned that there. Yeah. Right? Fighting for the culture. So your first thing that you take away from Apple as it relates to five ⁓ surprising things that meant Apple taught you about ministry and church is like the culture is Is absolutely ⁓ I think it's f s Sam Chan who says culture eats strategy for lunch. if it's not Sam Chan, correct me in the chat, in the comments. ⁓ but culture eats strategy for lunch, it is culture ultimately drives all of belonging within an organization. Yeah. And I don't think in ministry we focus on culture nearly enough. We focus on things like charisma and personality and style. Yeah, for sure. But at the end of the day, in order to get anything done, the culture has to be incredibly defined. Absolutely. Absolutely. But here's one that I think people know, but they don't know like the actual level of or the magnitude of how important this is, which is that discretion is the secret sauce. Okay, this is number two? This is number two. Uh-oh. Discretion is the secret sauce. You don't talk about discretion in ministry. So so I I worked in retail stores, I worked from home as well. Everybody has this notion that if you work for Apple, you know what's going on behind the curtain. Meaning that you know, everybody knows when new products are coming out. We know, like, it is not the case. Believe me, when I tell you, when Apple employees tell you they don't know, they really do not know. Like the secret sauce is in the ability to work behind the scenes on something, develop it, and be able to keep it a secret, and then the element of surprise gets people to a point where they're like, I wanna know more. I want to buy this product now, right? So it's the ability to keep a secret, right? It's the ability to build something without people knowing, working on it, developing it, hear me, failing at it too, in order to get to the point where you need to be. So sometimes I think some of the mistakes that ministry leaders or others make is that they go public with everything. And then when you fail publicly, it looks so bad, right? So there's some things that that people will never know Apple tried to work on. They tried it, they developed it, it didn't work, and it never made it. Everything Apple produces is like perfect. Hello. What? Right. You see what I'm saying? Apple doesn't fail. Right? You know? So it's like at that point, if you learn how to do some things behind the scenes, sure, get a team to work on some things, develop it. Hey. implemented in small stages. ⁓ no that didn't work. That didn't work. It's better to fail behind the curtain sometimes than it is to fail in front of everyone. So I think that's super important. Like I can only think about like one product where we like put it out there that we were going to be working on it and then it didn't happen. And many don't even know what it is. Okay now we're all interested. Right, exactly. Something called the air power. Right? Air power is supposed to be something that you know charged multiple devices at once. Apple we were going to make it normally when we make it it's normally one of the best, right? And it never came out. Wow. But most people don't know about it. They've never heard of air power. They've never heard about it, right? So yes, it was something that we may not have done well, or let me say they now, because you I'm a part of Vanished Advisory now, right? Hello. ⁓ but yeah, like it's it's important, right? And and that's the discretion, the ability to keep the secret and then the elements of surprise is so huge. And I think I think ministry leaders and and churches can learn a whole lot from that for sure. Yeah, I think ⁓ playing ministry to Apple Translator, especially you know, as as I get to talk to churches all across the country and I'm talking to their pastors, man, Keith, the number of ideas that are decided on the car ride to church and announced in the pulpit Hours after the hours after arriving is just absolutely staggering. Seriously. And I think it I say this to Pastor Only Time. You only have so many times to get it wrong. That's it. Remember, Elijah says he he he prophesies rain, but then he goes up the mountain, puts his head between his legs, and prays, which represents in the story the work it takes to see the hand of God move, right? And then the Bible says, ⁓ I feel preachy. Suddenly he saw the cloud, the size of a man's head, after he did the work. Right. I think what happens in men. ministry is we're awestruck by vision and an idea. And we think because we're master communicators, is let me go tell the people. Yep. And watch this. The Bible gives a very I mean a I mean a a Brick by brick template for how to best accomplish executing vision. Habakkuk two and two. Write the vision. Which requires you to stop thinking long enough to actually take out your pen, take out your notepad and your phone, and write what it is you believe God is saying. Some of us just stop and wrote, we would stop ourselves from think from horrible ideas three to four. Like, hey, put that paper. And when you start to read it, that don't make no sense. No, I don't. Or watch this, write, write the Bible says write the vision, and then watch this. Make it plain. Make it plain is not you making it plain. You Making it plain for me and my leadership framework is saying submit that vision to one or two trusted people and try to explain it to them the way you saw it. That doesn't mean explain it to everybody. That does not even mean take bring your whole leadership team that says, hey, your spouse, your associate pastor, your executive pastor, your number two. Say, hey, here's what I'm thinking. Written down. I'm submitting this to you. I'd like to hear your feedback, thoughts. I poke holes in my argument. Where do you see this failing? Where do you see this winning? Do you think there's something I'm underestimating or overestimating? That's quality leadership. And what ends up happening is because we believe that all inspiration, all inspiration is Holy Spirit. We decide that because it's Holy Spirit, we can skip over the crucial steps to execution. And so what you're learning, what you are taking from Apple, and now bringing to hundreds of churches all across the country is this idea like, hey, the speed of vision to execution requires discretion. It requires you sitting with it, wrestling with it, praying over it, fasting over it, getting a multitude of counsel before you present it. And then watch this. The secret to Apple's success is by the time you see it, on on the world stage, Tim Cook doing the product display. It's been four or five years. Thank you. It has been baked, cooked, thought through, tasted marinated, and but so now when people see it, hey, it's gonna rain. ⁓ man, it's raining. Right. But that rain didn't that didn't just happen. He went to the mountain, he put his head between his legs, and he prayed. And even the cloud appearing didn't mean it was raining at that point. Bro. Bro, where's the Hello Help help us? Right? So he still had to go go and prepare still for that rain to come. Like so in some seasons it's like you see the clouds, it's great, but you still got work to do before that rain comes. And so I think about all the products. Think about like It's our start, right? Like so Mac the Macintosh computer, right? Then we develop iPods. And we de what they again, they develop iPhones. It's okay, right? You still get a discount. Right. Hey, drop discount in the comments, right? Do not do that. 45% of I'm joking. I'm totally don't he can't get fired. He works for you. Right, right, exactly, right. You know, so so iPhones, iPads. I mean, now we got Vision Pros and all these things, right? All of it was carefully thought of, failing, they failed it at certain points, they got it better. They Engineered, reverse engineered, do did all the work to get to where we are now. And so and and there's still a whole lot that they're that they're, you know, I'm sure still working on. So yeah, it it's it's it's a lot, but that discretion and that ability to like develop it behind the scenes before it gets to the forefront is super important. Come on. I'll let me I love this conversation, Keith, because you're You are opening up a can that I think is just this is just such good unearthing of wisdom for leaders who are listening in on this conversation. Yeah. The truth of the matter is when you have an idea, when you have an idea, it requires a specific order of operations. I I laid out the right division, make it plain. But then I think what Wh maybe you can even t touch on how Apple. It's like there is an order into which people are informed of something because oftentimes, watch this, the way you find out about something is more important than what you find out. And a lot of us, lean in leader, a lot of us are causing internal frustration and toxicity in our leadership ecosystem because we're telling the wrong people the right information at the wrong time. The wrong the right information. at the wrong time is wrong information. And so I think one of the keys you're unlocking for a lot of us is this idea of discretion. It just says, hey, stop firing from the hip. Great leaders don't fire from the hip. We're considered, we're measured, we're thoughtful, and when we execute, we've thought about, I like to the phrase I use is catastrophizing. We thought about all the things that could go wrong. That's how the that doesn't that doesn't mean you don't have faith. Yeah no no no it doesn't mean it's just saying hey you're counting the cost. I love this conversation. Yeah, I'm having this is the most fun conversation. Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Okay, so that's number two. I'm having a blast. Number number two, yeah, yeah. I I think the third is ⁓ discovery also leads to success. Right? So this idea okay, so you were you're talking about systematic, all right, ⁓ or or systems that that kind of flow. ⁓ one of the things that makes a good, especially a s a good salesperson or somebody who is needing to pitch something, is the ability to be able to discover And uncover their needs. So what's spoken and unspoken, right? So someone calls, calls in or goes to an Apple store and says, Well, I need an iPhone. And a lot of times they'll come in with preconceived notions of what they need. ⁓ So, ⁓ yeah, I need, I need the latest and greatest. I need an iPhone 17 Pro Max. All right, give it to me. And a lot of times we're taught to be able to slow down to be able to discover, hey, why why do you need that? Asking that why question that too many people are uncomfortable in asking, but is so necessary because it'll unlock what they actually need. Like, hey, tell me why. Why do you actually need that? What what is it that you're actually doing with this product? ⁓ and then that allows us to uncover solutions for them and allows us to give, you know, hey, you need this, this, and this. ⁓ so the discovery or or what Apple would call probing. Where you're literally digging in to discover more about the person and then matching the person to a service or matching the person to a solution is is really incredible. So I think one of the things that we have to do is we gotta start asking more why questions to find right fits, right? But to also ask why about like, why are we doing what we're doing right now? Come on. Right? And so I've been able to help people realize like mistakes that they made purchasing before, right? How to correct it all because I asked a few questions. Asking one or two more questions could give you some of the solutions that you need. Jesus. Right? So, so so that would be, you know, the third, like that, that the art of discovery. The art of discovery. I think when it comes to leadership, man, you're unlocking so many this is so good. Keith, you were taking us to school today. Listen, this is Apple, right? Asking questions is one of the most underrated leadership tactics that we teach in modern leadership. You I say on an irresistible leader, we're navigating one of the biggest changes in leadership in the last fifty years. And when when I say that, what what I mean is it the leadership of old was very authoritative. It was certain. Yep. It was ⁓ It was definitive. It was, hey, we're doing this. Right. Hey, this is how it'll happen. This is how I want to look. The new version of leadership that I call an irresistible version of leadership is incredibly more concerned with understanding than declaring. Right. And you unlocked it masterfully for us. It is your the gold is in the why. Yeah why are we doing this? What is this? Not watch this. Lead leader, listen in. There's a difference between asking questions and having a questioning spirit. Asking questions is unearthing knowledge and wisdom. A questioning spirit is asking questions to change the mind of the person and who you're in of whom you're interrogating. We like to have we like to be question askers, not lead with a questioning spirit. Now, why am I saying that? It's because I think a lot of us, a lot of us, this is the highest we've ever led. This is the most unique environment we've ever led. No one watch this. Listening to my voice right now, you've never led in this day ever. Like this is a brand this brand new day. This is a brand new day. We got AI, we got right, you all of that. It's I mean, I'm I'm talking about on the brass tacks of the calendar, but I'm also meaning the age in which we live. No one, no one, I don't care how long you've been leading from from you you've shut on 75 years old listening to your podcast to Shutan, I'm 22 and I'm wanna be and I'm aspiring leader. Right. No, you've never led. So stop being so certain of everything. Ask. More questions. The best leaders ask the best questions. And in the question asking, you're unearthing the wisdom. There's a Bible verse. I'm gonna jack it up right now. Here I go. It says the the ⁓ a man's heart is many mysteries or many are many layers, and wisdom and questions draw it, draw out that. And a lot of us. Especially in our in our mentoring relationships, in th in our pastoring relationships, those who we who we submit ourselves to. And I know some of you don't work in a ministry context or a church leadership context, but those of you who do, like we're not spending enough time asking our leaders why. Hey, I don't want to change the idea. Tell where did you get that from? Yeah, right. What are you hoping that accomplishes? What do you see in my life that yeah what that I need to change? When you ask why, watch this, you are opening up the door of pastoring. Because now, just like Apple, in the in the pursuit of your outcome of this product, I can help navigate you towards what's the best thing for you in this season. Hello. You don't know what you don't know until you know it. There it is. But why are we so comfortable having a Apple genius direct us? I'm thinking it's Apple Genius. Well yeah, they're just the genius bar, you know, right? Why we so comfortable having the genius bar guy tell us what we need best, but when we we don't open up ourselves to pastoral relationships, hey What is it about what I'm trying to accomplish that I'm not gonna be able to do if I stay here? What product or tool or knowledge or training or what in my personality needs reflected or changed or altered in order for me to accomplish the will of and call of God on my life, to be this leader that I'm trying to be? And a lot of us just keep frankly, we're not asking the question why. Well, we don't even ask God enough why questions. ⁓ because we believe that God can't handle our questions. Yes, but he wants us to. He desires that we need to read the book of Job. Right? You know, like asking God questions. will literally free us and he will speak to those questions too. Give us correction, give us, you know, the revelations that we need. And sometimes we we gotta ask. Right? So ask God, ask our leaders. The why question is super critical. And it's it's how Apple has been able to teach people not just how to have good products, but how they can benefit from having the right products. Right? So so yeah. And then Apple Obsesses over details. Mm. Okay, so this is number four. Number four. Number four. Obsesses over details, right? Like people don't realize all the thought that goes behind even small screws being put into iPhones or how we literally have a machine that, you know, takes apart a phone, recycles all the parts responsibly, every small detail that you don't even think of, Apple has thought of. They think about the way products are positioned, they think everything is detail oriented. And I think that there has to be leaders, executive leaders, who somebody who obsesses over the details, the numbers, that so so Apple calls, you know, some of their the ways that they serve customers in store the Apple steps of service, right? So there's this system that people, you know, go through, right? So so it talks about the way that we approach customers, the way that they probe or discover about ⁓ hear this. There's no presentation of a solution without there being a probe and approach, right? Right. So they don't present like, Hey, you need this product until they actually got to know the customer and and all. And so sometimes like, you know, I think Let me make sure say this right. So so there shouldn't necessarily be a presentation of Jesus without getting to know pe who people are first. Yo. ⁓ Right? I like this kind of topic. You know, so like I'm I'm actually getting to know this person and getting them to see like here's how Jesus can impact you and you don't know anything about them. Yeah. Right? So there there's an approach, there's a probe, there's a presentation, there's listening. What are you hearing? What's not being said, and then an ending. So Apple never wants a customer to end with a purchase. They want to continue this cycle of them returning back. They offer classes for them to learn more about their products, right? They offer services and subscriptions and all these things that people can continue having a good relationship with this product, with this brand. How can we as leaders take that approach and make sure it doesn't end on Sundays? Sundays are very, very critical. But there's a continued, you know, ongoing relationship that's built. 'Cause that's what it's about, right? Like there's hardware and then there's software. You gotta have both. That's right. Right? Gotta have a a a marrying of both of those, ⁓ in order for there to be a great experience with the with the product. So I think that's another thing that they like they they obsess over every detail. Like you would be shocked to learn how much thought goes beyond the type of material that's used in the tables inside of an Apple store. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about thousands of dollars spent on just tables alone. They obsess over details. I think there needs to be more of that within the ministry space as well. I cannot agree more. I think when I study, which every leader should do, when I study great leaders, right? When I study great leaders. ⁓ and I don't know your context or who you study, but think about like think about the person right now. Just if you can just as you're listening to us talk, you're like, man, I I look up to that person for what they've accomplished, what they've designed, what they've created, the lifestyle they lead, the money they've made. None of those things are bad, right? There is an unusual obsession that you can find in their life, be it around their work product, a hobby that they have, they're ⁓ they're in are ⁓ unusually committed to a certain discipline. Yeah. And To be honest, Keith, this is the quiet part that we don't want to have out loud. Is we want success. And the the the the the deep foundational unmovable route to success is mundane. Obsession. Yes. And everybody wants to do something else. Everybody everybody wants to be Instagram an influ in an influencer on the internet. They that blue check mark, right? Yeah, well now you pay for Right, exactly. But all but but no one wants to be consistent every day. Obsession is not mastery. No, no, no, no. And and that's where we get it wrong. It's like, ⁓ I to be obsessed, but I'm ⁓ but a mastery is so far away. Obsession leads to mastery. Yes. You start with what you have today. Some of you are over analyzing. And overcomplicating simple steps that you should be taking to do the thing God has called you to do. And in that, if you continue compounding every day, you'll look back and see success. But from this side, but on this side, the starting point of success looks like mundane every day. And I think that's what you're saying about Apple. It means, hey, let's obsess over the screw. Let's obsess over the wood. But now you look at Apple you're like, whoa, trillion dollar company, hundred and sixty thousand employees. That's obsessive. I that's insane. Man, they're so obsessed. It's like, no, no, no. They didn't start off that way. Like it started it starts with small, significant ⁓ obs obsessions around specific things. Yeah, I think Craig Groschell ⁓ said it best in Divine ⁓ I believe it's his book Divine Direction, where he says that a lot of the habits that he, you know built and and that were successful started with really small things like he said that in his book he talked about how he flossed every single day and how doing that one small thing led to other things that he just continued to do and then you know built to you know to what he what he built. So I think it's that's s and that's exactly what Apple did. They obsessed over small details and continue to get it better. Bring in super smart people and that's that's one thing people should get for free. You should always have people in the room who are probably smarter than you in some area to help you continue to get better, right? But I think the last thing I would say is that Apple taught me, and it's something that I I think I will live by, and I think it should not be something that people apologize for, is that good enough isn't. Good enough is not. We should not feel bad about wanting to be great in the ministry space. Right? Like we shouldn't be okay. Like Apple's not okay with just a good product. They want it to be great. ⁓ and so that's why they take the time to research and to build and develop and do everything behind the scenes as we were just talking about, because good enough isn't, right? They they we we talked about it, they preached it, ⁓ and I think it's something that we all have to like. There's nothing wrong with, like you said, with having a a high expectation or a godly ambition of wanting to be great. Like everything I do for my church, I want it to be great. I want to like learn, fail, of course, but I want it to be great because good enough is Isn't and I think that sometimes that's hard conversations because some people are okay with good enough. Some people are deeply okay with good enough. Yeah. It's like, ⁓ that graphic is good enough. Yeah. Well well no, it it could be better. Yeah. Right? Like, ⁓ well, you know, that we can just show up it, you fifteen, twenty minutes late and we'll we'll be okay. We'll be able to flow. Like, no, good enough isn't. And I think the more people raise the standard of No, this can be done in excellence. The better, the better it ⁓ will be for sure. And you know, ⁓ again, here I go translating for Apple one final time. I think when I talk to leaders and I'm trying to help them understand this good enough isn't ideology, yeah. I say everyone, you need to ac you need to lead with excellence. And excellence is the baseline of leadership. And what is excellence? Excellence is doing the best with what you have and exceeding expectations. So the idea is. Your version of excellence today will not be your version of excellence in five years. Bingo, there it is. But if it's not excellent today, you'll never be the excellence that you desire in five years. And so hear me, leader, be extra when it comes to being excellent. Extra. People see with their eyes, right? ⁓ they you go to you don't go to restaurants that aren't excellent. You don't go to fitness clubs that aren't excellent. You don't go to daycare. Two star restaurants, right? You're not like excited to go to two star restaurants. So why would you bring that ideology into the kingdom, right? The kingdom Should is the, you know, Queen Sheba. It's like it is the it it should it should produce reaction when interacted with, right? And I think you you layered out so many things that you encountered at Apple, but it it's a great way to put the bow in this conversation. And that is God's kingdom deserves that level of obsession, that level of excellence, that level of care. And to I listen, Keith, I get roasted on the internet. All the time about, you know, it doesn't take all that, you know, we just need to, you know, all churches just worship. And yes, it is absolutely worship, but it absolutely takes all of that. Yes. Don't like don't tell me the same God who lays out the blueprint to the tabernacle in the old testament is the same God who in 2026 says it's okay to rehearse on Sunday mornings, come in late, not be prepared, not have a follow-up system for your first-time visitor, not have an order of service for your church, not know watch this. Plan a 60-minute service and then go two hours as if that's totally normal and acceptable, like having no discipline around the structure of the liturgy. Right. Just for all my theologians lead in. I know both languages. Right. ⁓ I said that to say it is the desire of great men and women of God who trying to be irresistible leaders. To lead with a level of excellence that is contagious. Right. And don't apologize apologizing. Right. Good enough, isn't it? And we know that the Holy Spirit is the is the wild card in Uno, right? Like that. Absolutely. We'll make you draw for a and then he can stack them. He'll stack Do whatever, right? Cool. But like you said, building systems and and doing all those things is still a necessary component. We still have to be good stewards of what God has blessed us with. And I'm praying that we're we'll be able to help leaders and churches do that. Man, listen, that's you teed me up for that segue because I think one of the things I want to end on this conversation is like there is it's not lost on me that God is absolutely expanding our footprint in our territory as it relates to what we're doing through the company in Andrew's Advisory now that you're ab on board. Like it's not normal to get a 10 year Apple vet and leave Apple and stock options and all this stuff. They say, Hey children, I want to partner with you and what the work we're doing at Andrews Advisory to help build the kingdom of God with my background, my knowledge, my relationships. What is it That made you make that jump from, you know, there's irresistible leaders listening who maybe in the corporate space and say, yo, I I wanna be effective in ministry or take my ministry effectiveness to the next level. What made you like in real sense, like not the spiritual ocean stuff, but like, hey, okay, I'm gonna go from Apple to this consulting advising space within ministry. What what how did you count those costs? Right. Well, I mean, I think for me, first of all, like I noticed a present agitation. ⁓ and normally when there's an agitation, it could be something for you to lean into, right? The Holy Spirit could be agitating you or or or could be wanting you to open your eyes, right? When you're experiencing some agitation that cause there may be ⁓ a space for a change. ⁓ and and it made me really reflect on like what I was doing, where I was, and I realized like it was great. It was a great season. It was God that led me into that season, but it was also a place of comfort, security, but also a bit of settling. Right? Like I couldn't move forward anymore in the space that I was in, at least. Like I would have had to move, which I wasn't gonna do ⁓ at the point in time, but I really was at a place where I had to say, all right God, like what is it that you're that you're leading me to? And then in comes you, right? So I had to be I had to be at a point where I was open open to a shift, even when it didn't look like the shift that I would normally go after. Can you just pause there? Right. I don't know. This is you don't know this, but I didn't mean to do this. I totally teed you up. Everyone who just heard that response, if you're watching this on YouTube right now, rewind it. Listen to it one more time. Because what Keith just laid out is how to transition. in ministry. Yeah. And from the marketplace into ministry. And I think those of you who are listening to this conversation and you're feeling everything Keith just laid out. Hey, God led me to this season. I loved this season. This season was beneficial. Absolutely. It blessed me. It challenged me. It grew me. But there's a there's a there's a bit of an agitation. And that agitation is not unholy. Right. It's not unholy. It is not unholy. God may be in identifying something in you. He may be your growth season. You've now You're now, you know, it's like a plant. You've reached the capacity of this pot. Right. And so that now feels restricted. Well what used to feel like expansive and space to grow now feels like a restriction. God is trying to show you, hey, I'm trying to implant you in the next thing. Yeah. And when you feel that, it is not you're supposed to pause and Pray for God to reveal. What most of us do is we start submitting our application. We start submitting Let me just go, right, right. Hey, pause. God will send you opportunity. Hello. He might be sending you this podcast right now. He may be. I'm not being super spiritual. I'm saying he may have interrupted your day or your time with this podcast to say, hey, maybe in this season of ministry or in marketplace, you wanna you wanna explore what else is out there as it relates to, hey, I'm it it I'm not gonna mishandle the season. I'm not gonna leave unwell, but I am interested to see what there is out there. God, if you can show me what is out there, I'm interested in listening. Yeah, you should click on the link in the bio right now. If you're a candidate, you're looking for a you're you're you're you're not searching, but you're searching. You're open, but you're not you're you're open, but you're not out there alone, you know what I'm saying? You haven't left your n corner thing, but you want to you want a way to identify and explore other opportunities. We have churches that we partner with all over the country who are looking for competent people who have their chemistry and who have great character. And like Keith, you might have a phenomenal career in the marketplace. And you're saying, Lord, is there a is there a ministry opportunity for me? Maybe it's not my current church that I'm serving at. They don't have the budget, they don't have the role, or maybe it's not in the city I'm living in. I'm willing to I'm over there's so many options for you. Yeah. And I would say to you, this might be after hearing Keith's story of navigating this season of transitioning from Apple into Andrew's advisory, you might see parallel. In your life and in your story, and you want to know how that works. I would encourage you to start a conversation with our with our right seat team. There may be an opportunity for you that we can pair you with a phenomenal ministry looking to grow and advance the kingdom of God, and they've been looking for you. So I didn't mean to do that. That was not why I teach that question. But when I'm listening to you talk, I'm like, that's where I believe most of our candidates who we working who are working for are. We're not hear me, because we only work, let me just say this out loud arrogantly, we only work with the top like 10% of candidates. We're not, we're not a mass at this is not indeed LinkedIn. We work. with sp highly specialized, highly talented, tenured type at applicants who are looking to make an impact in ministry. And I say that to say ⁓ if that's you and you're want you want to have that conversation, if you're like, hey, you know, if you left your last joint real bad and you know you couldn't be rehired and and you know you burn the earth, don't call. Don't Texas. Like I'm and I know I know it sounds like really aggressive, but like that's not the type of people we want leaving well matters, yes. Leaving well matters candidates. It's kind of like banking. The best candidates are the ones not looking for a job. Keith Keith I was not looking. He wasn't looking, but he was open. I was praying, right? Hear me, when I left corporate space into ministry space, I wasn't looking. I was making great money. Right. I loved my job. Hello. Now, was there another level of purpose and fulfillment and calling I wanted to have? Absolutely. Absolutely. ⁓ but I say it all the time. We know we have a great candidate when they're like, no, I I love this. Right. And it's like, ⁓ man, okay, I could see myself loving that more. Not the person who's who's left the last job, who's left the last three jobs every six months and is now looking for the next thing. Right. Nah, doc. You gotta settle some things in your heart and your calling and your emotions, therapy. ⁓ listen I and hear me. If you're gonna if you're interested in these conversations, even as the irresistible leader, you should know that's how we talk here. Like, hey, your next step is not a job, it is therapy. Yeah. No, that's real. You know what I'm saying? Like before we add pressure to you, it you might want to do ⁓ three months of intensive ⁓ in emotional I emotional EQ development before you step into a significant issue. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I I just I see it as like a lot of us are Elisha's that are plowing in the field, like 1 Kings 19, and God sends an Elijah to literally catapult him into the next place, right? And I feel like that's where a lot of us are. Like we're in the field, we're plowing, we're working, you know, our our jobs and all those type of things. ⁓ but what happens when Elijah taps you on the shoulder and it's like, hey, it it's time for something else. Right. And so that's where I was at, and I think that's that's where some others maybe. Now the second part of this conversation is if you are leading an organization and you're like, yo, I need some Keith on my team. Like, how do you shout? How are y'all getting people from Apple to come to organization? Listen, how does that work? Because are you paying Apple salaries? Well, stand by. Keith is about the lake. ⁓ I said that to say that's and that's the second part of what we do ⁓ within Right C in the in the searching and staffing space. Is that is that is we partner with organizations. And I think what we are bringing to the conversation. With your leadership and your thought leadership here is we're just we're gonna we're reimagining what this looks like, right? ⁓ LinkedIn, indeed, your church's website is not producing the candidates you want. We know it. We know that. We noticed that your job descriptions have been posted for the last four or five months. And it shouldn't take that long to find the right person if you were looking if that right person was looking for you. And so one of the things that the right seat difference ⁓ is centered on is making sure that first that the organization is really clear about who they're hiring what they're hiring and what that what they want to bring that person for. Yep. And then the second thing that I think is incredibly crucial in that process is that we work after finding that candidate we work alongside you through the interview process, the salary negotiation process, making sure that they're clear and when their yes is yes it's a solid yes. But here's the difference for the 12 months after you bring that person on, we will walk with that person every single month absolutely through coaching and consulting you. to ensure that that role remains what we hired them for and and that we architect their workflow and their processes and the way they're thinking that's it to ensure success. And because we're so confident, and when we find the right person for the right seat, we'll guarantee that seat for 12 That's it. months and should where they do that at they don't do that except here they don't they only do that here that's ⁓ and so we'll can we'll maintain that relationship for the next 12 months to ensure that that person wins and if they don't we'll replace we'll help you find the next one we'll replace them yeah at no additional cost that's how sure we are that when we find the right person for the right seat we'll guarantee it for 12 months and that's an easy ask that's an easy ask for us. Keith man welcome to the company let's go Andrews advisory baby let's ⁓ now Keith still has an Apple discount up until no I'm joking. He does not have an Apple discount ⁓ my goodness. But Keith, I'm so happy you're on the team and I'm looking forward to the impact you're gonna make across churches, all across the country, across the globe, ⁓ helping people get in the right seats so that churches can get clear to grow faster. Welcome to the family, man. Let's do it, bro.