Welcome to good for the plot, a podcast where we interview seasoned film and TV industry professionals, and have them take us through their career journeys. In the hopes of demystifying, a very gate kept industry. I'm your host, Erin McGoff.
this episode was brought to you by B&H, your one-stop shop for everything photo and video.
Jeremy Zuckerman is an Emmy award-winning composer and musician whose diverse body of work includes music for film, television, and dance, traditional Chinese music, sonic art, and concert music. Jeremy is best known for composing the music for the beloved series, Avatar: the last Airbender and the legend of Korra.
These unique scores have earned numerous accolades, including two Emmy wins and several nominations invitations to speak as a guest panelist to pack rooms at ComicCon and the distinction of being a featured composer at the play Fest music festival in Malaga, Spain, and honestly, that doesn't even scratch the surface of everything that Jeremy has accomplished as a composer.
So, Jeremy, thank you for being here. No, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. So first I'd like the audience to know that Jeremy and I have actually worked together during the production of my first feature film, this little land of mines. I reached out to Jeremy via a cold email to ask him to score my movie.
And I thought it was a complete shot in the dark, but Jeremy made all my dreams come true and created truly the most beautiful music I think I've ever heard. And if you guys would like to listen to that soundtrack, it is available. Right on Spotify and apple music and yeah. Wherever, wherever stuff, streams.
So, you know, the point of this podcast is to demystify the film and TV industry by showcasing the career journeys of seasoned professionals. And in order to do that, we have to start at the very, very beginning. So I wanna go back to baby Jeremy. Where, where did baby Jeremy live? Where did you come from?
Tell me about your childhood and like what your home and family life was like. So I was born in rural New York and, um, about 70 miles outside of the. , um, it is very different than New York city. A lot of people don't know this who aren't from New York, but starting around five, my mom, um, started giving me piano lessons and it was pretty contentious and we'd argue.
And it was... It was not, it was not the best situation, but, um, but it was a really good, um, sort of primer, um, you know, and the fundamentals of music and reading music and just. Dipping my toes into that world. And I didn't really get excited about music until I started playing SS around age nine. Um, but it wasn't really the right instrument for me.
And then around a, like right before my 11th birthday, um, I convinced my parents to get me a guitar. And then that's when it really felt right. And I remember just like sitting there with this cheap guitar and like playing like sort of like laying on my lap with like my using my thumb the whole time instead of.
You know how you're supposed to play guitar um, and I was like trying to play like some black Sabbath or something and, um, and it, it just felt really like, right. Even though I was playing it totally wrong but then, and then eventually I got into a band around age 13, started playing in a band and that's when it really, it got even more fun.
Started writing my own music, uh, had like a conversation with a friend and we both decided we were gonna like make music our lives, you know, even though it's scary and risky and we were just gonna go for it and then. That was sort of my singular focus. When you were then just graduating high school, what were your parents thinking?
Were they like, oh great. He's gonna be a composer. Like, or at that point you weren't even gonna be a composer. You were trying to just be like a, a rock star. Like what was the deal? My parents were really supportive and. They were taking me to private guitar lessons. And then in my senior year of high school, I was taking some music classes at the community college.
There were some sort of good resources because even though it was rural, it was still like, you know, outside of the city mm-hmm . And some of that trickled over my parents were pretty supportive with that stuff. And I think that helped a lot and they never really like told me don't do this. This is crazy.
Like a lot of parents would mm-hmm um, And I think that was like really important, honestly. Like, I don't know if I would've been able to do it without their support and without the support of some really good friends, like one in particular mm-hmm who sort of like gave me the confidence was like, yeah, like, sure, it's hard, but you you're gonna do it.
You'll be fine. You know? And the way he said it, it just seemed like. Of course, like he believed it so much that I, I just believed it. You know, I took a year off after high school and I just worked at this, um, warehouse Caroline records warehouse. And it was like the distribution chain of all this huge distribution company that distributed, um, all these really interesting indie albums.
And I met a lot of interesting people. I never would've met and was exposed to a ton of crazy music. that really started to open my mind. You know, that was a pretty good time to do that, even though it was like a very sort of like, I was just like shrink wrapping CDs and like filling orders and stuff. Um, it was , you know, it was not a glamorous job.
I inhaled a lot of plastic. Um, but, uh, but it, you know, exposed me to like a bigger world again. And then, um, I guess at some point I must have like called Berkeley or something to find. You know how you apply. And I, you know, they sent the packet and so I made a demo of a song that, um, my band had written and sent it to Berkeley, but I was late and don't make that mistake because I found out later by someone who worked in the, um, admissions office that I actually would've gotten a scholar.
Like they were considering me for their scholarship, but there wasn't money LA like some partial scholarship, not like a full scholarship or something. So don't make that mistake. But it, it, you know, I was lucky. My parents were able. Help me. And I was able to go to Berkeley, which, you know, not everyone can, or you have to take out huge loans, which I did later for KET mm-hmm
Um, I went to Berkeley and yeah, it was, um, it was hard. Um, I was like a, you know, had been like a, a big fish in a small pond. And then I got to Berkeley and, um, I kind of like resigned myself to the fact that I wasn't. I wasn't gonna be such a hot shot anymore. and, um, but it was sort of like self defeat in a bit.
Yeah. Um, and I kind of like, didn't really fight for it. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't really, like, I was just like, oh, I'm not I'm, you know, I'm not that great. Mm-hmm , you know, um, um, but what I did was I sort of stepped away from guitar and then got really into this synthesis mm-hmm and computer music stuff.
This was like sort of the first gen of like home computer. Computer music stuff. Would you say for composing, would you say college is imperative? Like you must go to college for that? No, not at all, but if you really want to be like a composer with range, I think you need to put the work in somehow. You don't have to go to college, especially now.
There's so much information everywhere. um, but you do have to be disciplined then mm-hmm and college helps sort of distill the information that's sort of the, the pro and the con of it, because someone's deciding which information is good for you to learn. That's a really good point, actually, because like, I, I talk about the pros and cons of film school a lot, but it is true.
You can teach yourself anything. I think. But school really distills it down. It makes it like, it's almost like a faster track, I guess that's the point of school yeah, absolutely. And there's someone who's been there sharing their experience, which is invaluable. Yeah. You know, and part of the issue with having so much information is like, what is good information?
What is valuable and what isn't, you know, on the internet. Yeah. So exactly. There's so much bad information on the internet. It's it's just so true. You have to be really careful when you're being self-taught mm-hmm at what point in college did. No, cuz you went in not thinking about being a score composer, right.
And then sometime in college you discovered that you wanted to do that. Not even, it was really strange. So I got really into this sort of Sonic art stuff. And then I, after Berkeley, I took a year and a half off or so maybe a year. And I, and I worked at a post protection facility in, um, in Midtown Manhattan.
And I was just like in the machine room, you know, and that was a really interesting experience. And I was, you know, in the thick of it and it was cool, but I also decided I didn't didn't wanna do that. And I wanted to continue studying. And, um, my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time, Wanted to get out of New York and go somewhere warm
And she was like, I gotta go somewhere where this like warmth and younger people. And so, um, so we, we, I did, I realized that like Cal arts would be an amazing place to go. I had sort of, I had a friend who was going there. And it just seemed like, you know, in another life it'd be so cool to go to K arts.
You know, then I was like, whoa, like, actually, this is my opportunity. Maybe I can actually do this. And I continued learning Sonic art and it was more like Sonic art com uh, composition. Okay. Then I graduated, but I thought I was gonna sort of like try to make a living doing like Sonic art, which is pretty much impossible, especially here in the us.
It's like, how do you make money? During that? I had a friend who was doing commercials for someone and they needed like a sound designer for something mm-hmm and. Um, I, uh, he called me up and since I had been doing computer music, they're like, oh, I'm sure you can do sound, sound design for this thing. And, uh, that was sort of my like backdoor in, you know, like where I sort of snuck in as a sound designer.
And then they, they realized that I was a composer and they started giving me like composition jobs. And then I did a bunch of commercials for a couple of years. And then, um, I was like, oh, this is nice. Not being poor. I like this. This is cool. yeah, this is, this is kind of great. Um, not having to share one Baja, fresh burrito with my wife, you know, like and one drink.
And then Brian KSKO approached my friend, Ben, who was not yet my business partner. Mm-hmm um, and I about doing avatar, he was in the process of creating it. He had just, um, I think it just got green lit. and he had been coming to Cal arts cuz Ben was there as well. Um, and he liked my weird compositions and for some reason he wanted us to do the music.
I guess he really didn't want like a standard composer mm-hmm and they took the risk and yeah. And so I sort of like was given these opportunities and I hadn't, I never studied film scoring. I never took one. In film scoring or any, anything mm-hmm . Um, but I take it a lot of composition, but it was much more in the realm of modern composition and Sonic art.
It, it all sort of comes from a, you know, you can trace the line of like modern composition and Sonic art, some traditional music and orchestral music. And it's just about things fitting together a certain way. And you know, and there's sort of, it's, it's not like they're two separate worlds really. Um, and I found it actually pretty easy and intuitive to.
Sort of pivot to this like film composition thing and also like Sonic art. I think the best Sonic art is like really evocative. Yeah. So it was strange. Like it sort of like found me and I was like, okay, like, yeah, you know, I'll do this for a little bit. And here, I mean, I know it's Nickelodeon at the time.
Like, you know, it's probably, oh, it's a kid's show, but like, were you intimidated? It's probably the biggest gig you've gotten yet, right? Yeah. Um, I was pretty intimidated. Yeah. I remember like at our first, at our first spotting session, I got like a migraine in the middle of the spotting session. couldn't like, see anything and I'm like, oh cool.
And I just like, Ben was, uh, would get them sometimes too. And I just was like, I gotta fucking migrate. I wrote a little message to Ben. It's like, oh shit, man. And then we just like, just sort of like pretended I was fine and like, you know, felt crappier as the day went on and made it through. But I think that was probably cuz of the pressure and the stress.
Um, and I also remember like, Working seven days a week, like, you know, 14 hours a day. And like, it took me a really long time. I was really slow cause I was figuring it out, you know, mm-hmm um, and I didn't, I didn't like, uh, assist any, any composers. So I, I was sort of having to figure out like what tools to use, like how to organize it, you know, the terminology, all this stuff.
Did you ever think about not doing it? Did you ever think about like this isn't what I wanna do? I don't wanna score a kid's show. I wanna, you know, create this. Absolutely. Um, and I sort of thought like, okay, like I'll do this and make like my sort of Sonic art, you know, as well. Um, mm-hmm and that's proven to be very difficult.
it's just, there's not enough hours in the day, you know? Um, yeah. And I've, I've sort of always been like, I've never really given up on Sonic art stuff. Like I still dabble in it. And, but I also think that sort of gives me something unique. Uh, like in the film world, in the film scoring world, um, definitely.
And. Yeah. And I, I kind of like, see 'em as sort of two, almost opposite poles, but I kind of feel like they're getting closer. Um, as my career sort of progresses. I don't know. I think that's why you sound yeah. Your, your score sounds so unique is cuz like you weren't, you weren't trained to be a score composer.
Totally. Yep. Yeah, exactly. I was, you know, listening to wish art and Sabbat and these composers that people don't really not too many film composers listen to. And I was never, I'd never really listened to soundtrack. , but then you went on to, to make, um, scores and themes that became so beloved and like kind of classic.
So how'd you go from esoteric art to creating this very, like, I don't know, like com not commercial, but like, yeah, mainstream. Um, I think because there's a part of me also that really loves that and always has, you know, I've always loved melody and themes, and I listened to a lot of eighties, you know, top 40 with my older sister.
I remember we. Sit around, you know, I'm sort of going back in time again, you know, we'd like sit around the, the, the little, like boombox listening to the radio and I love those melodies and they're definitely in my DNA. And they come out in like tiny little fragments sometimes in some of my themes. Um, and I kind of love that.
Like, I have no issue with that, you know?
Is there anything that looking back that you wish you, you did differently when you're starting out? Um, I wish I had had more fun. Like I was, so everything felt really precious and I was really anxious. And I tried so hard and it wasn't really fun. It was just like hard and exhausting, you know? Um, and I, I think that the music still sounds fun.
I think it gets the right emotion across. So maybe in the Mo maybe in the moment, maybe there were fun moments, but like, I just remember it being like really hard, you know? So that's one thing I wish I'd done differently, but I don't know, like, you know, I've never been like a big like hustler or networker.
And I know some people, like they say, that's. Like 90% of the job is like net networking and hustling and like getting the next gig mm-hmm . Um, but I don't know, like, I also don't want this thing to be like my entire life. Like I want my to be around my family. Sometimes I wanna be able to do other things.
I want to write like weird music sometimes, or like take on a project like yours, you know, that was yeah. Like smaller, but like meaningful and I was available to do it, you know? Um, yeah. You know, I think if like you're always hustling and like focused on the next gig, it's just like really hard to like really be present for the current gig and yeah.
Um, to sort of take chances with, you know, to try things and, um, and it's also hard to just have a life you knows, just have a life outside of. Your work, you know, you have to be so intentional about that. I feel like in the film industry, cause it's so competitive. It's like, I mean, I, I bet you've probably had to say no to things.
A lot of things that you wanted to do, you have to say no. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, um, it seemed crazy, but I felt really good, honestly, you know, I'm fortunate to be able to do that and still make a living. And I'm really fortunate to have, you know, been the person on avatar when that happened, that I. How lucky is that, you know, um, so that's helps me.
That's given me some freedom career freedom, you know, because backend money and things of that sort. How, how does one build sustainability as a composer when you're, when it's all these project and gig based things? Yeah, it's hard. But one thing, one thing a composer really has to make sure of is that they do not give up their writers, share their performance royalties, um, and.
A lot of these streamers are trying to buy them out now. And a lot of young composers feel pressured into doing it, or they don't know. And they, you know, they're like, oh, cool. Look at this little sum of money, which is, if the show is a hit, it's gonna be disgustingly small for what, for what you would, you know, what the person would've gotten if they had kept their performance royalties.
Um, so that's one thing like, do. Sell that, and that again, that's also like sort of a race to the bottom. Like then one person does it. Then the streamers expect everyone to do it. Then they say, I'm not gonna use this composer. I'll use this other one. Who's willing to, you know, and, and the, the thing is to, to the streamers, it's not a whole lot of money, so it's pretty slimy, like to the streamers is not a lot of money, but to the composer, it's really important.
What kind of person do you think would be really a good composer? Like what kind of personality type do you think would, would be a good fit for this career? I think you have to be okay with being someone who is supporting someone else's vision and be very okay with sort of killing some ideas that you may love.
You know what I mean? But the, the thing to remember is that any idea you love, you can always come back to in some form in some. You know, so it's not like it's gone forever, like you might, or, and you may have discovered some cool process that may inform you in some other way later on, you know? So sometimes I would get kind of like, actually I'd get pretty bent outta shape where I, if I'd make a cue that I thought was awesome and it got shot down.
Um, but now I don't even like flinch, you know what I mean? I'm like, oh, it's not, it's not serving the person's vision. And that's totally cool. So let's figure out their vision and. I just know, put, if I really like it, I put it aside and like, know, maybe it'll come back in some form somewhere else, you know?
Yeah. It's similar to video editing, you know, sometimes you gotta know where to put your foot down and other times you just gotta say, Hey, you know, this is, this is somebody else's vision. I really liked what you said about supporting somebody else's vision. What do you think is your favorite, uh, cue you ever you've ever composed?
Hmm, I don't, I don't have one favorite cue, but I have some, you know, that. that come to mind more than others. I really, I think some of the avatar stuff like the, um, there's this moment in the finale, some moments in the avatar finale that I'm really proud of and people seem to really connect with. So like, there's sort of different reasons why I might love a cube.
One might be cuz like people just really connected to it. Another might be cuz I tried something and it worked, you know, um, there's some definitely some moments in the avatar for now like that.
There's even stuff in the, the film we did together that I really love mm-hmm um, like the opening scene, every cue and that I just love, I find myself listening to it all the time. People tell me they listen to it to study like the people that's gonna score, you know? And they're like studying. Stuff. Yeah.
Which is cool. Mm-hmm very relaxing. That's awesome.
It's amazing. It is one of the, like, and that's something that would barely have happened if I had been a, you know, high art, Sonic art composer there would've been like 10 people. Yeah. The audience would've been much smaller, which that's not why I do this, but it is, it was a really interesting byproduct and I had no.
That there was an audience for this kind of thing. That's how little I knew about film scoring. Like when I did avatar and then they went to the first ComicCon I wasn't there and the creators came back telling me all these people were asking about this soundtrack and, and they were like, like cheering when, you know, they said, and I was like, these people know, like, know my name.
That's so crazy. Like, I, I was totally blown away. Yeah. Was there ever an official soundtrack? Um, not for avatar. No. Why not? Do you have the ability to release. Um, well, there are some very great new, new people at Nickelodeon who are very supportive and now there's avatar studios. Oh yeah. So it's looking really, really good for the first time.
But every time I say this, people get mad at me cuz it goes like, say this thing. Do you have anything else exciting going on right now? Yeah, there are, but I can't really say them because they haven't been announced, but things within things in the avatar world, um, there's a lot going on in that a lot going on in that.
There's so many people out there striving to become a score composer. Uh what's you know, some advice that some practical advice that you would, you would give to them a big part of it, at least in my experience, well, pretty much everywhere that I've seen is who, you know, just like everything. Um, but you have to have the ability when given that opportunity, you know, a big part of that though, is attitude.
Right. And being okay with like, um, admitting when you don't know something. And then figuring it out, you know, you don't have to know everything. You don't have to be Mozart, but you have to have a really good attitude. You have to sort of be the kind of person that helps inspire the director, you know, like through conversation and you sort of like help each other, unpack whatever you're working on and go more deeply into it.
Um, I think that's pretty important. So like, you know, you don't have to be a super extroverted person, but I think you have to like people. Honestly, you know, I thought you would say the opposite. I thought being a composer would be a very, very introverted job where you like to be alone, like all the time.
Well, that's part of the challenge of it, honestly, because if you're super introverted, you're gonna have a hard time connecting with directors. Mm. Um, and runners mm-hmm , but you're also alone a lot. So like, what it is is you're not super introverted, but you're forced to be alone a lot, which is kind of taxing , you know, I bet.
Um, and you gotta figure out ways around that, like going out and doing things and ah, talking with people. Yeah. Talking with people it's, it's super important. Um, or like having someone you work with, you know what I mean, expose yourself to like, not just like film music, but. The music of the masters that the film music is sort of referencing, you know, really understand that stuff as much as you can.
Um, I'd say, try to constantly take in new work, like, like new material. I mean, other people's work, like, see what's going on, um, study, you know, look at different genres, um, you know, try to just be learning all the time. I think that's really important just for your, your chops sort of aside from the business side of things.
Um, and so you don't become stale read, um, just study, be into it and. Go to concerts. You know what I mean? Um, but meeting people is really important and the thing is like established directors and runners usually already have their composer. So you're gonna wanna like meet people in the beginning stages.
Like you. and hopefully you'll get lucky, you know, and you'll rise up together, you know, and you know, what's really smart is I actually get reached out to the most by score composers. They slide into my DMS. They're like, Hey, I just wanna introduce myself. Um, and I'm like, that's awesome. Yes, please keep doing that.
Mm-hmm you never know. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. Yeah, exactly. Thanks for adding that. Cause that's a really good point and like something I'm a little less hip to is like using social media, um, you know, to. To make connections, you know? Um, but yeah, I've, I've had a lot of people reach out to me via social media too, just like aspiring composers.
And I think it's good to assist people, you know? And if you show yourself to be really driven and have promise, like when this composer is like insanely busy, they might give you a cue to do, then they might realize you killed it and then give you another one. And before you know it, you know, maybe they're giving you co credit on something and then, then you're working, you know?
Um, but it is really competitive and it's more competitive now than it's ever. You're right. That attitude. I stress that attitude all the time with my followers. I'm like, you just need to be, you know, that can do attitude. It makes all the difference. Mm-hmm absolutely be cool. Don't, don't be, you know, cynical don't be jaded, you know, was there ever a point when you were in like high school where you were like, maybe music isn't the most practical thing?
Maybe I should. Do you know something else? Was there ever that thought in your mind? Not really. I remember I had a, a friend who was a bit older and he, he was like 18 or. um, he was actually a C at a music camp. I went to when I was 13 and he was like visiting and my parents were talking to him and they were sort of like, it's good to have a plan B.
Right. And he said, well, I mean, if you have a plan B, you're gonna go to that. You're gonna go back and, you know, you're gonna. Go to that plan B when things get hard, because things will get hard. Um so in his view and he was of course, like 19 or something, he said, don't have a plan B go all in and that's the end of it.
And force yourself to figure out a way to survive. And of course that's again, super idealistic, but there's also some wisdom to that. Yeah. What do you, yeah. What do you think about that advice? Like looking back on that, I think there's like a, like, there's like a middle, middle ground, which is. Know the business aspect of your art and understand that.
And like, you can think of yourself as an artist and a business person, but within the realm that you're creating art, you know? So like there's so many ways to make music, to make money for music and art in general. Now I think, um, and if you really understand those ways, you know what I mean? You have that much more power and that much more potential.
Well, thank you so much for being on the show. My pleasure me. It was so great talking to you. I wish you the best of luck with future projects and I can't wait to watch some of your upcoming work. Thanks you too.
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Jeremy Zuckerman is an Emmy award-winning composer and musician whose diverse body of work includes music for film, television, and dance, traditional Chinese music, sonic art, and concert music. Jeremy is best known for composing the music for the beloved series, Avatar: the last Airbender and the legend of Korra.
These unique scores have earned numerous accolades, including two Emmy wins and several nominations invitations to speak as a guest panelist to pack rooms at ComicCon and the distinction of being a featured composer at the play Fest music festival in Malaga, Spain, and honestly, that doesn't even scratch the surface of everything that Jeremy has accomplished as a composer.
So, Jeremy, thank you for being here. No, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. So first I'd like the audience to know that Jeremy and I have actually worked together during the production of my first feature film, this little land of mines. I reached out to Jeremy via a cold email to ask him to score my movie.
And I thought it was a complete shot in the dark, but Jeremy made all my dreams come true and created truly the most beautiful music I think I've ever heard. And if you guys would like to listen to that soundtrack, it is available. Right on Spotify and apple music and yeah. Wherever, wherever stuff, streams.
So, you know, the point of this podcast is to demystify the film and TV industry by showcasing the career journeys of seasoned professionals. And in order to do that, we have to start at the very, very beginning. So I wanna go back to baby Jeremy. Where, where did baby Jeremy live? Where did you come from?
Tell me about your childhood and like what your home and family life was like. So I was born in rural New York and, um, about 70 miles outside of the. , um, it is very different than New York city. A lot of people don't know this who aren't from New York, but starting around five, my mom, um, started giving me piano lessons and it was pretty contentious and we'd argue.
And it was... It was not, it was not the best situation, but, um, but it was a really good, um, sort of primer, um, you know, and the fundamentals of music and reading music and just. Dipping my toes into that world. And I didn't really get excited about music until I started playing SS around age nine. Um, but it wasn't really the right instrument for me.
And then around a, like right before my 11th birthday, um, I convinced my parents to get me a guitar. And then that's when it really felt right. And I remember just like sitting there with this cheap guitar and like playing like sort of like laying on my lap with like my using my thumb the whole time instead of.
You know how you're supposed to play guitar um, and I was like trying to play like some black Sabbath or something and, um, and it, it just felt really like, right. Even though I was playing it totally wrong but then, and then eventually I got into a band around age 13, started playing in a band and that's when it really, it got even more fun.
Started writing my own music, uh, had like a conversation with a friend and we both decided we were gonna like make music our lives, you know, even though it's scary and risky and we were just gonna go for it and then. That was sort of my singular focus. When you were then just graduating high school, what were your parents thinking?
Were they like, oh great. He's gonna be a composer. Like, or at that point you weren't even gonna be a composer. You were trying to just be like a, a rock star. Like what was the deal? My parents were really supportive and. They were taking me to private guitar lessons. And then in my senior year of high school, I was taking some music classes at the community college.
There were some sort of good resources because even though it was rural, it was still like, you know, outside of the city mm-hmm . And some of that trickled over my parents were pretty supportive with that stuff. And I think that helped a lot and they never really like told me don't do this. This is crazy.
Like a lot of parents would mm-hmm um, And I think that was like really important, honestly. Like, I don't know if I would've been able to do it without their support and without the support of some really good friends, like one in particular mm-hmm who sort of like gave me the confidence was like, yeah, like, sure, it's hard, but you you're gonna do it.
You'll be fine. You know? And the way he said it, it just seemed like. Of course, like he believed it so much that I, I just believed it. You know, I took a year off after high school and I just worked at this, um, warehouse Caroline records warehouse. And it was like the distribution chain of all this huge distribution company that distributed, um, all these really interesting indie albums.
And I met a lot of interesting people. I never would've met and was exposed to a ton of crazy music. that really started to open my mind. You know, that was a pretty good time to do that, even though it was like a very sort of like, I was just like shrink wrapping CDs and like filling orders and stuff. Um, it was , you know, it was not a glamorous job.
I inhaled a lot of plastic. Um, but, uh, but it, you know, exposed me to like a bigger world again. And then, um, I guess at some point I must have like called Berkeley or something to find. You know how you apply. And I, you know, they sent the packet and so I made a demo of a song that, um, my band had written and sent it to Berkeley, but I was late and don't make that mistake because I found out later by someone who worked in the, um, admissions office that I actually would've gotten a scholar.
Like they were considering me for their scholarship, but there wasn't money LA like some partial scholarship, not like a full scholarship or something. So don't make that mistake. But it, it, you know, I was lucky. My parents were able. Help me. And I was able to go to Berkeley, which, you know, not everyone can, or you have to take out huge loans, which I did later for KET mm-hmm
Um, I went to Berkeley and yeah, it was, um, it was hard. Um, I was like a, you know, had been like a, a big fish in a small pond. And then I got to Berkeley and, um, I kind of like resigned myself to the fact that I wasn't. I wasn't gonna be such a hot shot anymore. and, um, but it was sort of like self defeat in a bit.
Yeah. Um, and I kind of like, didn't really fight for it. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't really, like, I was just like, oh, I'm not I'm, you know, I'm not that great. Mm-hmm , you know, um, um, but what I did was I sort of stepped away from guitar and then got really into this synthesis mm-hmm and computer music stuff.
This was like sort of the first gen of like home computer. Computer music stuff. Would you say for composing, would you say college is imperative? Like you must go to college for that? No, not at all, but if you really want to be like a composer with range, I think you need to put the work in somehow. You don't have to go to college, especially now.
There's so much information everywhere. um, but you do have to be disciplined then mm-hmm and college helps sort of distill the information that's sort of the, the pro and the con of it, because someone's deciding which information is good for you to learn. That's a really good point, actually, because like, I, I talk about the pros and cons of film school a lot, but it is true.
You can teach yourself anything. I think. But school really distills it down. It makes it like, it's almost like a faster track, I guess that's the point of school yeah, absolutely. And there's someone who's been there sharing their experience, which is invaluable. Yeah. You know, and part of the issue with having so much information is like, what is good information?
What is valuable and what isn't, you know, on the internet. Yeah. So exactly. There's so much bad information on the internet. It's it's just so true. You have to be really careful when you're being self-taught mm-hmm at what point in college did. No, cuz you went in not thinking about being a score composer, right.
And then sometime in college you discovered that you wanted to do that. Not even, it was really strange. So I got really into this sort of Sonic art stuff. And then I, after Berkeley, I took a year and a half off or so maybe a year. And I, and I worked at a post protection facility in, um, in Midtown Manhattan.
And I was just like in the machine room, you know, and that was a really interesting experience. And I was, you know, in the thick of it and it was cool, but I also decided I didn't didn't wanna do that. And I wanted to continue studying. And, um, my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time, Wanted to get out of New York and go somewhere warm
And she was like, I gotta go somewhere where this like warmth and younger people. And so, um, so we, we, I did, I realized that like Cal arts would be an amazing place to go. I had sort of, I had a friend who was going there. And it just seemed like, you know, in another life it'd be so cool to go to K arts.
You know, then I was like, whoa, like, actually, this is my opportunity. Maybe I can actually do this. And I continued learning Sonic art and it was more like Sonic art com uh, composition. Okay. Then I graduated, but I thought I was gonna sort of like try to make a living doing like Sonic art, which is pretty much impossible, especially here in the us.
It's like, how do you make money? During that? I had a friend who was doing commercials for someone and they needed like a sound designer for something mm-hmm and. Um, I, uh, he called me up and since I had been doing computer music, they're like, oh, I'm sure you can do sound, sound design for this thing. And, uh, that was sort of my like backdoor in, you know, like where I sort of snuck in as a sound designer.
And then they, they realized that I was a composer and they started giving me like composition jobs. And then I did a bunch of commercials for a couple of years. And then, um, I was like, oh, this is nice. Not being poor. I like this. This is cool. yeah, this is, this is kind of great. Um, not having to share one Baja, fresh burrito with my wife, you know, like and one drink.
And then Brian KSKO approached my friend, Ben, who was not yet my business partner. Mm-hmm um, and I about doing avatar, he was in the process of creating it. He had just, um, I think it just got green lit. and he had been coming to Cal arts cuz Ben was there as well. Um, and he liked my weird compositions and for some reason he wanted us to do the music.
I guess he really didn't want like a standard composer mm-hmm and they took the risk and yeah. And so I sort of like was given these opportunities and I hadn't, I never studied film scoring. I never took one. In film scoring or any, anything mm-hmm . Um, but I take it a lot of composition, but it was much more in the realm of modern composition and Sonic art.
It, it all sort of comes from a, you know, you can trace the line of like modern composition and Sonic art, some traditional music and orchestral music. And it's just about things fitting together a certain way. And you know, and there's sort of, it's, it's not like they're two separate worlds really. Um, and I found it actually pretty easy and intuitive to.
Sort of pivot to this like film composition thing and also like Sonic art. I think the best Sonic art is like really evocative. Yeah. So it was strange. Like it sort of like found me and I was like, okay, like, yeah, you know, I'll do this for a little bit. And here, I mean, I know it's Nickelodeon at the time.
Like, you know, it's probably, oh, it's a kid's show, but like, were you intimidated? It's probably the biggest gig you've gotten yet, right? Yeah. Um, I was pretty intimidated. Yeah. I remember like at our first, at our first spotting session, I got like a migraine in the middle of the spotting session. couldn't like, see anything and I'm like, oh cool.
And I just like, Ben was, uh, would get them sometimes too. And I just was like, I gotta fucking migrate. I wrote a little message to Ben. It's like, oh shit, man. And then we just like, just sort of like pretended I was fine and like, you know, felt crappier as the day went on and made it through. But I think that was probably cuz of the pressure and the stress.
Um, and I also remember like, Working seven days a week, like, you know, 14 hours a day. And like, it took me a really long time. I was really slow cause I was figuring it out, you know, mm-hmm um, and I didn't, I didn't like, uh, assist any, any composers. So I, I was sort of having to figure out like what tools to use, like how to organize it, you know, the terminology, all this stuff.
Did you ever think about not doing it? Did you ever think about like this isn't what I wanna do? I don't wanna score a kid's show. I wanna, you know, create this. Absolutely. Um, and I sort of thought like, okay, like I'll do this and make like my sort of Sonic art, you know, as well. Um, mm-hmm and that's proven to be very difficult.
it's just, there's not enough hours in the day, you know? Um, yeah. And I've, I've sort of always been like, I've never really given up on Sonic art stuff. Like I still dabble in it. And, but I also think that sort of gives me something unique. Uh, like in the film world, in the film scoring world, um, definitely.
And. Yeah. And I, I kind of like, see 'em as sort of two, almost opposite poles, but I kind of feel like they're getting closer. Um, as my career sort of progresses. I don't know. I think that's why you sound yeah. Your, your score sounds so unique is cuz like you weren't, you weren't trained to be a score composer.
Totally. Yep. Yeah, exactly. I was, you know, listening to wish art and Sabbat and these composers that people don't really not too many film composers listen to. And I was never, I'd never really listened to soundtrack. , but then you went on to, to make, um, scores and themes that became so beloved and like kind of classic.
So how'd you go from esoteric art to creating this very, like, I don't know, like com not commercial, but like, yeah, mainstream. Um, I think because there's a part of me also that really loves that and always has, you know, I've always loved melody and themes, and I listened to a lot of eighties, you know, top 40 with my older sister.
I remember we. Sit around, you know, I'm sort of going back in time again, you know, we'd like sit around the, the, the little, like boombox listening to the radio and I love those melodies and they're definitely in my DNA. And they come out in like tiny little fragments sometimes in some of my themes. Um, and I kind of love that.
Like, I have no issue with that, you know?
Is there anything that looking back that you wish you, you did differently when you're starting out? Um, I wish I had had more fun. Like I was, so everything felt really precious and I was really anxious. And I tried so hard and it wasn't really fun. It was just like hard and exhausting, you know? Um, and I, I think that the music still sounds fun.
I think it gets the right emotion across. So maybe in the Mo maybe in the moment, maybe there were fun moments, but like, I just remember it being like really hard, you know? So that's one thing I wish I'd done differently, but I don't know, like, you know, I've never been like a big like hustler or networker.
And I know some people, like they say, that's. Like 90% of the job is like net networking and hustling and like getting the next gig mm-hmm . Um, but I don't know, like, I also don't want this thing to be like my entire life. Like I want my to be around my family. Sometimes I wanna be able to do other things.
I want to write like weird music sometimes, or like take on a project like yours, you know, that was yeah. Like smaller, but like meaningful and I was available to do it, you know? Um, yeah. You know, I think if like you're always hustling and like focused on the next gig, it's just like really hard to like really be present for the current gig and yeah.
Um, to sort of take chances with, you know, to try things and, um, and it's also hard to just have a life you knows, just have a life outside of. Your work, you know, you have to be so intentional about that. I feel like in the film industry, cause it's so competitive. It's like, I mean, I, I bet you've probably had to say no to things.
A lot of things that you wanted to do, you have to say no. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, um, it seemed crazy, but I felt really good, honestly, you know, I'm fortunate to be able to do that and still make a living. And I'm really fortunate to have, you know, been the person on avatar when that happened, that I. How lucky is that, you know, um, so that's helps me.
That's given me some freedom career freedom, you know, because backend money and things of that sort. How, how does one build sustainability as a composer when you're, when it's all these project and gig based things? Yeah, it's hard. But one thing, one thing a composer really has to make sure of is that they do not give up their writers, share their performance royalties, um, and.
A lot of these streamers are trying to buy them out now. And a lot of young composers feel pressured into doing it, or they don't know. And they, you know, they're like, oh, cool. Look at this little sum of money, which is, if the show is a hit, it's gonna be disgustingly small for what, for what you would, you know, what the person would've gotten if they had kept their performance royalties.
Um, so that's one thing like, do. Sell that, and that again, that's also like sort of a race to the bottom. Like then one person does it. Then the streamers expect everyone to do it. Then they say, I'm not gonna use this composer. I'll use this other one. Who's willing to, you know, and, and the, the thing is to, to the streamers, it's not a whole lot of money, so it's pretty slimy, like to the streamers is not a lot of money, but to the composer, it's really important.
What kind of person do you think would be really a good composer? Like what kind of personality type do you think would, would be a good fit for this career? I think you have to be okay with being someone who is supporting someone else's vision and be very okay with sort of killing some ideas that you may love.
You know what I mean? But the, the thing to remember is that any idea you love, you can always come back to in some form in some. You know, so it's not like it's gone forever, like you might, or, and you may have discovered some cool process that may inform you in some other way later on, you know? So sometimes I would get kind of like, actually I'd get pretty bent outta shape where I, if I'd make a cue that I thought was awesome and it got shot down.
Um, but now I don't even like flinch, you know what I mean? I'm like, oh, it's not, it's not serving the person's vision. And that's totally cool. So let's figure out their vision and. I just know, put, if I really like it, I put it aside and like, know, maybe it'll come back in some form somewhere else, you know?
Yeah. It's similar to video editing, you know, sometimes you gotta know where to put your foot down and other times you just gotta say, Hey, you know, this is, this is somebody else's vision. I really liked what you said about supporting somebody else's vision. What do you think is your favorite, uh, cue you ever you've ever composed?
Hmm, I don't, I don't have one favorite cue, but I have some, you know, that. that come to mind more than others. I really, I think some of the avatar stuff like the, um, there's this moment in the finale, some moments in the avatar finale that I'm really proud of and people seem to really connect with. So like, there's sort of different reasons why I might love a cube.
One might be cuz like people just really connected to it. Another might be cuz I tried something and it worked, you know, um, there's some definitely some moments in the avatar for now like that.
There's even stuff in the, the film we did together that I really love mm-hmm um, like the opening scene, every cue and that I just love, I find myself listening to it all the time. People tell me they listen to it to study like the people that's gonna score, you know? And they're like studying. Stuff. Yeah.
Which is cool. Mm-hmm very relaxing. That's awesome.
It's amazing. It is one of the, like, and that's something that would barely have happened if I had been a, you know, high art, Sonic art composer there would've been like 10 people. Yeah. The audience would've been much smaller, which that's not why I do this, but it is, it was a really interesting byproduct and I had no.
That there was an audience for this kind of thing. That's how little I knew about film scoring. Like when I did avatar and then they went to the first ComicCon I wasn't there and the creators came back telling me all these people were asking about this soundtrack and, and they were like, like cheering when, you know, they said, and I was like, these people know, like, know my name.
That's so crazy. Like, I, I was totally blown away. Yeah. Was there ever an official soundtrack? Um, not for avatar. No. Why not? Do you have the ability to release. Um, well, there are some very great new, new people at Nickelodeon who are very supportive and now there's avatar studios. Oh yeah. So it's looking really, really good for the first time.
But every time I say this, people get mad at me cuz it goes like, say this thing. Do you have anything else exciting going on right now? Yeah, there are, but I can't really say them because they haven't been announced, but things within things in the avatar world, um, there's a lot going on in that a lot going on in that.
There's so many people out there striving to become a score composer. Uh what's you know, some advice that some practical advice that you would, you would give to them a big part of it, at least in my experience, well, pretty much everywhere that I've seen is who, you know, just like everything. Um, but you have to have the ability when given that opportunity, you know, a big part of that though, is attitude.
Right. And being okay with like, um, admitting when you don't know something. And then figuring it out, you know, you don't have to know everything. You don't have to be Mozart, but you have to have a really good attitude. You have to sort of be the kind of person that helps inspire the director, you know, like through conversation and you sort of like help each other, unpack whatever you're working on and go more deeply into it.
Um, I think that's pretty important. So like, you know, you don't have to be a super extroverted person, but I think you have to like people. Honestly, you know, I thought you would say the opposite. I thought being a composer would be a very, very introverted job where you like to be alone, like all the time.
Well, that's part of the challenge of it, honestly, because if you're super introverted, you're gonna have a hard time connecting with directors. Mm. Um, and runners mm-hmm , but you're also alone a lot. So like, what it is is you're not super introverted, but you're forced to be alone a lot, which is kind of taxing , you know, I bet.
Um, and you gotta figure out ways around that, like going out and doing things and ah, talking with people. Yeah. Talking with people it's, it's super important. Um, or like having someone you work with, you know what I mean, expose yourself to like, not just like film music, but. The music of the masters that the film music is sort of referencing, you know, really understand that stuff as much as you can.
Um, I'd say, try to constantly take in new work, like, like new material. I mean, other people's work, like, see what's going on, um, study, you know, look at different genres, um, you know, try to just be learning all the time. I think that's really important just for your, your chops sort of aside from the business side of things.
Um, and so you don't become stale read, um, just study, be into it and. Go to concerts. You know what I mean? Um, but meeting people is really important and the thing is like established directors and runners usually already have their composer. So you're gonna wanna like meet people in the beginning stages.
Like you. and hopefully you'll get lucky, you know, and you'll rise up together, you know, and you know, what's really smart is I actually get reached out to the most by score composers. They slide into my DMS. They're like, Hey, I just wanna introduce myself. Um, and I'm like, that's awesome. Yes, please keep doing that.
Mm-hmm you never know. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. Yeah, exactly. Thanks for adding that. Cause that's a really good point and like something I'm a little less hip to is like using social media, um, you know, to. To make connections, you know? Um, but yeah, I've, I've had a lot of people reach out to me via social media too, just like aspiring composers.
And I think it's good to assist people, you know? And if you show yourself to be really driven and have promise, like when this composer is like insanely busy, they might give you a cue to do, then they might realize you killed it and then give you another one. And before you know it, you know, maybe they're giving you co credit on something and then, then you're working, you know?
Um, but it is really competitive and it's more competitive now than it's ever. You're right. That attitude. I stress that attitude all the time with my followers. I'm like, you just need to be, you know, that can do attitude. It makes all the difference. Mm-hmm absolutely be cool. Don't, don't be, you know, cynical don't be jaded, you know, was there ever a point when you were in like high school where you were like, maybe music isn't the most practical thing?
Maybe I should. Do you know something else? Was there ever that thought in your mind? Not really. I remember I had a, a friend who was a bit older and he, he was like 18 or. um, he was actually a C at a music camp. I went to when I was 13 and he was like visiting and my parents were talking to him and they were sort of like, it's good to have a plan B.
Right. And he said, well, I mean, if you have a plan B, you're gonna go to that. You're gonna go back and, you know, you're gonna. Go to that plan B when things get hard, because things will get hard. Um so in his view and he was of course, like 19 or something, he said, don't have a plan B go all in and that's the end of it.
And force yourself to figure out a way to survive. And of course that's again, super idealistic, but there's also some wisdom to that. Yeah. What do you, yeah. What do you think about that advice? Like looking back on that, I think there's like a, like, there's like a middle, middle ground, which is. Know the business aspect of your art and understand that.
And like, you can think of yourself as an artist and a business person, but within the realm that you're creating art, you know? So like there's so many ways to make music, to make money for music and art in general. Now I think, um, and if you really understand those ways, you know what I mean? You have that much more power and that much more potential.
Well, thank you so much for being on the show. My pleasure me. It was so great talking to you. I wish you the best of luck with future projects and I can't wait to watch some of your upcoming work. Thanks you too.
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