Ref Tips- Sergio Cotrez

Dale Hanover: Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Full Circle Wrestling. On today's podcast, I have a good friend and an awesome official, Sergio Cortez. Sergio, thank you for being here. Dale, thank you for inviting me. Appreciate being here. Sergio is part of the inner circle here for Full Circle. So he holds me accountable with content, with ⁓ the course that we're designing. I'll let him kind of dive into more detail about his career and experience, but I The guy has done more, has more knowledge in his pinky than I have in my entire brain. So I super appreciate you being here and and just your friendship and your mentoring and all that you've done. So why don't you give a quick synopsis of some of the different wrestling officiating or all angles? Because I feel like we have that one thing in common talking about wrestler, coach, parent, and now official. Yeah, Dale, thank you. I I I share that ⁓ full circle perspective with you because I ⁓ I'm also a father. I'm a a wrestler myself, now a grandfather, which I'll be coaching pretty soon. My granddaughters, but ⁓ fishing and and I have been involved with ⁓ with officiating for about forty seven years now, coming in for my forty seventh season and ⁓ have really enjoyed the sport of wrestling. My kids wrestle, ⁓ I wrestle, so ⁓ now I officiate and it's ⁓ way to stay connected to the sport and ⁓ be there in the center. Yeah when the action occurs. I I know that Sergio's very humble in the sense, but there there's lots of refs that have achieved a lot of success and you know, like super honored and blessed to be part of California and do their state meet multiple times. But Sergio not only has done the high school state multiple times, he's also a high school state evaluator. He also does the highest levels of USA wrestling with freestyle and grecco. Correct. Yes, I do and now also beach wrestling. What got you involved with USA wrestling in addition to folk style? Well, yeah, that's a good question. I think when I graduated in 1979, so that that that dates me. Now you know how old how old I am, ⁓ there was this gentleman named Ken Ryman, a good official friend of mine that I became friends with. And right out of high school, I used to do AAU wrestling. AAU wrestling was big in in California before USA wrestling, transitioned to USA wrestling. And so Ken Ryman took me under his wing and he was a little chubby and and I was wrestling and And ⁓ I'm sitting there and I'm getting penned and you know, Ken Ryman says, Get off your back, Chubby, and I got upset and I kicked him. His fingers are down on the island. I broke his two fingers and he got up really quick and he looked at me and you know you kind of you tweak them, wrestlers know, they they kinda come out of joint and he looked at me and he said, You're cursed for life. You're gonna be an official and and I I spoke at his eulogy in at his funeral and ⁓ Ken Ryman actually had me fall in love with sport of wrestling because of where I grew up and where I lived, ⁓ that was an escape. I had a good coach, Coach Inghart at Rio Mesa High School, took me under his wing, come pick me up for practice. You know, we we were low income and we didn't have a a a ride to the school, so he'd come and get me and I would not miss practice because he was there. And Ken Ryman drove me to the to the matches, drove me to officiate. He encouraged me to be a great official. You know, he was ⁓ in nineteen eighty-four ⁓ Olympics here in when we had him here in in Los Angeles. He participated and was part of the crew there. And so he shared a lot of his knowledge and a lot of his passion for the sport. And I stuck with it. I mean, the first ten years were hard. You know, you're young, you gotta get there, you don't have a car, you know, y et cetera. But somehow I stayed with it. I know every year, for those ten years, I go, What am I doing officiating? This is terrible. Coaches yell at you, you know, you you you ⁓ you you you're under a lot of pressure, you make a call, you're either fifty fifty, you're you or or or you know, the a parent up up in the stands yelling at you or they confront you as you're coming out. You're the worst official. You made bad calls. And and and after that ten year cycle, I kind of said, you know what, this is fun. Yeah. ⁓ I I continue to wrestle in my thirties, you know, USA wrestling, USA re AAU and USA wrestling. So so as you wrestled, you officiated and you got a little cash. And that was kind of nice. Not a lot back in the day, twenty five, thirty dollars for a ten, ten, twelve hour day, but it it was fun. And I enjoyed that because I also met a lot of people during that process. That's awesome. Yeah, it definitely pays a little bit better now. I think the one thing that you had mentioned earlier was what a great seat we have. And to see some of the athletes that we've been fortunate enough to officiate and some of the matches that we've alled and the state meet and for you, USA Wrestling with Nationals, as well as overseas and traveling internationally. That passion comes across. And I know now working in San Diego with our younger officials and everybody as a vice president, you you embody that passion. And I feel like the best thing we could hope for is that everybody has that passion. Let's let's dive into USA wrestling. And I have been super impressed now that I'm trying this social media and podcast things that USA wrestling really does it right when it comes to training officials and their video. an analysis and and you were talking earlier about you not only have to pass a written test, you have to pass a video test. Make the call. Why why don't you talk a little bit about what USA Wrestling has done and their education for efficiency? Yeah, so so I've been involved with USA wrestling for a long time. And and you know USA wrestling really drives and focuses on their philosophy is making sure the right wrestler win. It's not about our ego. It's not about, ⁓ I've been doing this for a long time. I'm Sergio. I'm gonna, you know, that's it. That's my call. Really, you know, in the three man mechanics, the ultimate goal is to get the call correct because we want the wrestler the right wrestler to win. So with that, they've done a great job in putting together a structure of ⁓ of video of the day. They have ⁓ they have a lot of content. ⁓ USA, once you once you join USA ⁓ wrestling through their membership program, you get to look at all these videos and and all these situations. And there's small clips where, okay, so so now they've changed the rule on the out of bounds rule or they changed the the rules on the drop downs, et cetera. And so they've developed this structure where you can actually look at it. Have a question. And then if you still have a question, we get a hold of Rick Schwab, which he's the content creator and one of the USA board members that develops the content. And he personally will call you or he personally will send you an email. They're very accessible. That's one of the key things about that is that they they really believe and are behind what they produce. Yeah. And there's no excuse for you not to get better because the content is there. And they give you that ability to do that. And then and then you get assigned to a tournament or or not assigned to yeah, you can get assigned Or or then you sign up for an event and that referee will be there. And so you get to actually see take the test and then actually work with Rip or work with a guy like like like Sandy Julian or Nick Kendrick or some of these high level officials that are doing the Olympics, Olympic level officiating, and you get to see their passion, you get to see their drive, you get to see how they focus and what they do to make the call. I it it's been nothing short of amazing in my opinion. And it's something I want to emulate as I create courses for folk style because the reality is I I don't know what your experience was learning, but when I became an official fifteen years ago, we literally, they said we sat down in a gym and the instructor instructor chair had us read chapters for read the rule book. Read the rule book, yeah. And I'm like, as an educator, this is horrible. This is like you want to talk about how not meet people. And this was fifteen years ago, let alone even farther back. Nowadays we have the technology, we have the video, we have so much in the creative space that we just need to utilize that. And a my main goal is maybe to emulate USA wrestling in that aspect, but using the NFHS rules and the college rules and putting that together. And there's little pockets out there and some really knowledgeable people. So we're just trying to like I bring Sergio on board that We're trying to get the best minds together and create the best content. Yeah, but they may they may this little pull the thread a little bit about what you say. You know, it it was very difficult back in the day, you know, when we were growing up and becoming officials of a lot of competition. Yeah. ⁓ you know, we didn't have the content, the videos, the the the the technology to actually grow. And so if if you you were not open to learning and a ⁓ like a Ray Wallace or or a a a ⁓ one of those high level officials didn't take you under your wing, you didn't grow. I I remember, you know, when I first got selected for to do the masters, ⁓ Orange County Orange County was was the ⁓ the elite officiating organization back then. And if you, you know, a Macrillis or a you know ⁓ some of the names that elude me now didn't take you under your wing. You didn't grow. And and then Once you were there, there was a lot of envy among the other officials. ⁓ how did you get in there? Why are you there? Rather than looking at, hey, that you know, you're making the right call, you're aggressive, you're you're making an attempt to read the rules and understand the rules and apply the rules. And today the young officials, these young officials have the opportunity because they have a lot of the older gentlemen there, the referees that are there, they take advantage of, but then they have that system and that structure that if they're not taking advantage of that, that's ⁓ that's on them. Yeah. To not get better. So, you know, it was difficult. And today, thankful because even at my age, I'm still learning. I'm still going to these high level God. I I and I look at these young officials. God, I like that. I'm gonna pick that up. That's a neat mechanic or that's a neat strategy. That's a neat position to be. If I change my level here, I can see that. So you're constantly learning, and as soon as you stop thinking that you can't learn, can't become better, you should retire. I I think your point is a hundred percent valid. And ironically, is I've now started producing content and all that. And when I talk to the Sergio's of the world or the Maps Rosinskys or Nick Grosso or these people who have done the highest of highest levels, they all have the same thing in common. Dale, I'm just trying to learn one day at a time. I'm trying to get a little bit better. And the hard part is putting people in contact. You know, like we don't all have access to a Sammy Julian. You know, like when we start. We don't all have access to a we gotta go to your local area. And it can be difficult. We're big on mentorship. And I know in our association we are now starting to dive deep into that and help some of those officials. But it's it's really how we run our local meetings and and it's different. And so that's kind of where we'll we'll shift. But before we do that, I want to hear ⁓ what are some of the coolest things you've done with USA wrestling? Yeah, you know, you you just had on your podcast Stephen Neal and ⁓ you know, I had ⁓ an opportunity to referee a lot of his matches when we used to have the Fulleton open. Okay. And ⁓ God, that guy when he wrestled just loved this intensity and how he wrestled and you know, he was just the nicest you know, I I we can understand how can this guy win? He's just the nicest guy on the mat, but he was fierce. I mean he could win and it just you know, ⁓ fun to watch him wrestle. You know, last year yeah, last year I had the opportunity to take a team. Japan for a culture exchange. So I got to be a coach and got to be an official and officiating. You know, it's interesting, I don't speak Japanese. Yeah. But ⁓ we had a common language called wrestling and officiating. And so all of a sudden they asked me to be the chairman. And it's like, wait a minute, I'm I'm just ⁓ I'm him visiting. Why am I going to be the chairman on the mat? And so ⁓ you know, I had that certain level of respect from from the coaches there. And so I became the chairman of the mat. And and now I'm here in a country where I don't speak the language. But the calls were the same. Yeah. You know, the signals were the same. The positioning was the same. And I was able to just flow right into officiating and got a certain level of respect from the other officials there. And they come with their broken English and my broken Japanese. We communicated. And that was fun. You know, ⁓ some other interesting places, you know, my kids wrestled on the Mexican national team. And I recall in Monterey, Mexico, at the at the national championships. My youngest boy Joshua is retro the Calpala. He was a he's yeah, he was a Mustang at Calpala. Yeah, he's Dr Doctor Cortez. Doctor Cortez, yeah. He ⁓ he so so we're we're in Monterey and my son's ⁓ that was our first year there, and here's this, you know, Mexican American wrestling on the on to be on the on the Mexican national team. And my son is my son is beating the returning national champ. And I'm up in the stands, I got a hat on, I got my glasses on, and I'm trying to get incognito. Yeah. And so So my son gets cheated out of a fall. You know, the referee calls for a fall. The judge confirmed and the chair will not confirm the fall. And I'm just going crazy. And I'm up on the stands, you know. Next thing I know it, these two armed guys come over and want to escort me out. And I'm saying, What what did I do? And so ⁓ you know, the guy, the ⁓ the head of the federation, Max Gonzalez, I I can't forget his name, says he wants you out of here because you're cussing out the officials in English. I go, No, I'm not. I'm cheering for my son. So I go, take me to your leader. So they take me to Max and and Max explains to me that this is a really tough sport that I should try officiating. And you know, I didn't tell him that I was an official or anything like that until he upset me and says, This is hard and you don't know what you're talking about. So then I said, You know what? This is easy and your referees don't know what they're doing. My son should have won that match. You know, now this is the passion coming out as a father. Yeah. And so that's a different role. That's a whole different role. Whole different role. A whole different challenge. You're myoptic in a lot of ways, but ⁓ You know, I calmed down and he said, Okay, I have I have a challenge for you. If you think you know what you're doing, I invite you to the next event. I took him up on his offer and I went to Tijuana and I refereed, and next thing you know it, they made me the President del Colchon, which is the Matt Chairman. Okay. And then I I refereed in Mexico for about eight or nine years. And they confirmed that with with the Tucci. Tucci is our USA president, national president. They confirmed that I was an official. They got me in, and then I became part of their wrestling. officials association and it was kind of neat because I got to travel. They used to pick me up in a l in a in a Mexican limo and they'd fly me out. They'd pay for my hotels. And my kids, both my boys, Sergio and Joshua, had the opportunity to experience Mexico in a different way because they got to wrestle and we went to a lot of places. That was a great experience. That was awesome. And so that even drove me closer and fonder of officiating because it's another branch. Yeah, it's you I I I get a lot of criticism. You know, I got ⁓ Bob Whitaker is a good friend of mine, great official. And ⁓ and he ⁓ yeah, back east, and he I can't believe that you like freestyle, you know, that just corrupts your your ability to do folks. And it is it is challenging transitioning from a freestyle thought process, but it at the end of the day it is wrestling. You've got passivity and you have stalling. Very close, very similar in the way we call and we'll talk about that later. But but that that transition and that ability to understand wrestling, wrestling is wrestling. It is wrestling. And so that really has helped me with my officiating because I have a passion for I love it. It just it's made me who I am. And today I I continue to do it at at at my age. You know? So ⁓ Well we're very thankful and fortunate to have you not only in San Diego but California and It's it is the language that transcends cultures. Absolutely. You want to talk about politically diverse countries with Iran and Soviet Union. But the reality is if you were to travel to one of those countries and you were a wrestler, you have that bond. And I know that your family is very similar. We work family vacations around wrestling. We do that. And the reality is we probably don't go anywhere without meeting somebody that we know or knows us through wrestling. And so there's that six degrees of separation, absolutely. I think it's three degrees of separation. With with wrestling world. So let's shift back over to high school. I I know a little more about that. But so you've been referring forty plus years in California and had the opportunity to do numerous state meets. You're now the vice president of San Diego Wrestling Association Association. Let's start with ⁓ what you've seen evolve as officiating in California. And how it's changed over the decades that you've officiated. What's involved, obviously what's involved is the competition. The you you think you've seen everything on the mat and there's no other move that can be ⁓ created by these young wrestlers. I mean, these kids are just wrestling and the intensity they wrestle and and and and what they bring to the mat is is unbelievable. At at a very young age they're wrestling. You know, and by the time they get to high school, these kids are awesome. You know, and and they they know they're mature, they know how to wrestle. And and they're taking that attitude, you know, and and and just real quick and and USA wrestling, you can challenge. You can challenge your own brick or you can, you know, not take your break. So today these kids in high school understanding they hey I made a call, that referee made a mistake. Yeah. I mean, they're a little bolder. They're they're a little more understanding, they're a little smarter. So I see that that transition and that that that maturity in the wrestling has improved. So officiating has to improve. Yeah. So so we we we can't just sit around and and and say this is how I used to officiate because we've got new moves, you know, the all the rule changes that that that that come about are as a result of things that come up that hadn't happened before. Yeah. I'd never seen that before, for example. I mean, how many times have you been on the mat, Dale, where you go, God, how am I gonna call that? And imagine you gotta call that like right now. We don't have video review in high school and luxury that we have in college. And so sometimes you don't know what to do and if you didn't make that call and you make something up, you're in trouble. I I often We we talked a little earlier about like control. And it's it's almost getting easier for me now because the vagueness of the rules, like reaction time and restraining power, like those aren't clearly defined, but they're defined enough that I can adapt whatever I see on the map. Like you said, like we see these lake pass situations now, something that they never would have gave control and a takedown or anything like that. Where freestyle and Greco, it's almost easier 'cause it's nothing's about control. It's about exposure. And those are exposures. And so that you throw up putting a your opponent in danger, yeah. Yeah. You're you're it's it's almost more clear where we have some subjectivity and like you said, these wrestlers have evolved and there's things even in my fifteen years of officiating, I can officiate it. But if you were to ask me to go into a wrestling room and teach how to do that, I would have a hard time. Like 'cause I didn't wrestle that way. I didn't coach that way. But now I I have to learn to apply the rules that I have to those situations. Yeah, the subjectivity comes in because you know, you've probably heard this control is felt. Yeah. You know, based on your experience, you can see when restraining orders occurred. I you y y you you as a as a experienced official will see when a when a wrestler dominated and when all of a sudden you have that hand post when the defensive wrestler kind of gave up position. That's restraining power, boom, you've got your three takedowns. Or not, you know. He's just stood up, didn't didn't use ⁓ a defensive action to bring himself up. Now are you going to define that as a as a you know defensive action or just a reaction of that wrestler's and you've getting a lot of more sophistication in these wrestlers because they're understanding that. And that's where wrestlers understand it, and we need officials to use that verbiage and those I so many times I'll hear officials and I I use the analogy, they get pulled over by a cock. And they're speeding. Why are you volunteering information? Like, don't talk to the cop. Like, you're only gonna get in worse trouble, right? So you just kind of take it. Same thing when we get brought to the table. Like, can I articulate why I made a call and defend it according to the rules? Because Sergio, you and I have done this long enough. There may be a takedown that I'm not really sure I agree with you or you agree with me, but you can defend it according to the rules, or I can defend my viewpoint and There's a little subjectivity and we roll with it. Yeah. Where some officials, they don't know those rules or they haven't really lived in those. And so then they have a hard time applying those or defending their calls. And let's face it, that's when the coach goes even more over the edge. Well, and that and that's a that's a key point. So what gets a referee in trouble, and you can see the level of experience of an official, when a coach brings me to the table, it is your responsibility as a referee. To listen to the coach. He has a right to approach the table because he's either going to earn him his conduct or you're going to give him an explanation. Yeah. And so so when when a when a when a coach brings you to the table, you need to listen because what gets you in trouble is not what you do sometimes, is what you say. Yeah. And to your point earlier, we need to stay within the vernacular, the rules, and concise definition. Coach, he had control beyond reaction time. Coach, ⁓ he went out of bounds, stepped out of bounds. We don't need to get into this esoteric discussion with the coach because as soon as you say one wrong thing, the coaches are smart enough to pull and pull and pull and now you're in trouble. Yeah. And so the least we say, the better off you are. I I'm a firm believer and if you can defend it in one sentence, you're a thirty second elevator speech. Boom. Yeah. So incredible career officiating. I I wanna dive into two different things that you're doing now in the high school before we really kinda get into like stalling and some of like that stuff. You've now had the opportunity and the privilege to be an evaluator for the state of California and to go into the state meet. And I know last year was your first year. Explain a little about that and talk a little bit about I I I know you've explained to me how that was an incredible growth experience for you. And and what you learned and how you'll apply it to San Diego. Talk about like what California is doing at the state meet and how Matt Wynn and Dwayne Morgan and Abram Ross, they've kind of created this evaluation process. Yeah. So, you know, start off, it it was a humbling experience. You know, coming and being an official at the at California State Championship is is an honor, ⁓ you know, and a privilege to be there. And it was a tough it was a tough transition to be asked to be an evaluator. So so when I when I when I first showed up, you know, I was excited, you know, hey, I'm gonna be evaluator. ⁓ you know, a little, you know, a little, I don't know, ⁓ sad that I wasn't On the whistle. On the whistle. I love being on the whistle. It just ⁓ it's just a it's a thrill. It's just you know, being there in front and whistling. So so then, you know, when I first started off, I just I I couldn't fit in. I just, you know, and then Abram, Abram Ross, ⁓ what an awesome guy. Yeah. I mean, he helped me transition into that role. ⁓ and then about three hours into the state meet, I sat in my seat and I go, Hey, this is pretty neat. Yeah. This is pretty neat. Hey, I'm getting to watch awesome wrestling. And I'm getting to watch the highest level of officiating you can possibly have in the state of California. Yeah. And and and I get to be a part of making suggestions, you know, because one of the big things in the state of California is where do I rank? Am I gonna be the top fifteen? Am I gonna be returning? And if I'm the sixteenth official or the fifteenth official, I'm not gonna get a final, blah, blah, blah, blah. All those things that go into, you know, th this this thought process into making sure that we have the right officials at the state meet. So so that was a that was a a great learning opportunity and ⁓ and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. So so it's interesting what goes into it. You know, we have some great, great evaluators and and we do a good job. And I know that a lot of ⁓ a lot of of the officials say it's ⁓ it's it's a good old boy system. It's a good old boy system. And and you know, you know, ⁓ Mark Hayes this year got the you know top the number one official and Mark had an awesome tournament. And and and and so we go through that process and it's pretty neat because You know, it's not like, well, I like Shamel, he made a good call, he's popular. We actually go through a ⁓ an objective process. We've got a score sheet and and there's there's nine or ten of us that sit down and we go back in the room and I'm telling you, it's it's it's a it's a it's a grueling process because each session we have to come up who and and rank each official and we give them a number ranking, you know, one through twenty-two and and and and then we have to have a rationale behind that. And then we have a we have a sheet of things that we look for. You know, and and and evaluating an official is not just watching an official make the call. Anybody can make a call. I mean, seriously, officials can make a call. It's it's how do you carry yourself as an official? You know, you're there for four days, you know? A are are you are you in a in a hurry to get evaluated? Are you looking and show boating and making sure everybody's checking you out? I mean, we look at all that w to make that full circle of an official, yeah, if you will. Because because because you're you're actually, you know, you've got to be there. How do you talk to a coach? If a spectator says something to you, do you smirk? Yeah. You know, you even we even look at the reactions, you know, of of are you making fun of somebody that's making fun of you? Yeah. Because the referee should be neutral. It's an arbiter. Yeah. And and our and our role is to make sure we do what what? Get the call right. Call right. And and then we're professional at it. The way you dress, the way you walk, the way you talk, ⁓ the way you use your your your vernacular. Do you know your rules? Yeah. Are you making things up? How do you interact with the visual? Are you bad mouthing an official? Yeah. I mean, that's that's the worst thing you could possibly do. It's badmouthing official. If somebody comes and asks you, hey, you know, Del ⁓ Dell missed that call. You know what? He probably did, but I probably missed it too. Yeah. And so referees are critical in themselves. Yeah. I mean, you know, when we make a call, we'll get texts. And and I'm you know, I can be out of the country and somebody will say, Hey, sir, hey, Sergio made this bad call. I'm I'm telling you, you know that we've been involved in that circle. And or we go back to that room at that evening and we're just looking at videos. Sergio, what? Hell were you thinking when you made this call, dude? You're out of position. What were you thinking? And then we try to defend it. Yeah. And we can't. Why? Because video don't lie. Video don't lie. And ⁓ and that process of of evaluation is is is and I'm looking forward to next year because now that I had this this urine in my belt, I I can take more of what I've learned and be a little more critical. Yeah. You know, and at that level, you have to be critical. And and then you start nitpicking little things. I mean, when you're the 15th, 16th, 17th official. Now you start nitpicking. But the the degree of separation is so yeah. I mean you Yeah, I mean and and these officials are good. You know, they they work hard. You could tell you could tell the official that they I I I'll give you an example. One of our own officials, you had him here, Connor Nestler. ⁓ huh. You know, I'm impressed by yeah, he's working on his PhD or got his PhD. Yeah, he's pretty close. He's pretty close. He's pretty close. I mean, he really, really to an nth degree, looks in at little teeny weeny areas on how he can improve. And and that's what we look for. Yeah. You know, what are you doing to improve yourself? Are you looking at videos? Are you looking at other officials that have already reached this peak level? Not to emulate them, but to to understand what they're doing to g put themselves in that position to become better officials. And and all those little little things we have to look at in order for them to distinguish between fifteen and sixteen, between seventeen and eighteen. Do you guys ⁓ spend time watching videos afterwards of Like what happened that day, or is it mostly discussion? No, no, no. So so let's say Del Hanover had a match and Del Hanover, we believe ⁓ Mr. Carr was out of position, and so I jot that that bout number down. Guess what we do? Okay. We go back and look at it. You have concrete information. Absolutely. You know, because when we get it right or get it wrong. You know, I was the first year. And I and I'm disagreeing with some of the ratings there. And so, you know, okay, yeah, I know Dwayne, I know the guys there, and they're they're looking at me like well, well, Sergio, okay, all right. So wait a minute, look at belt number ten twenty six, you know, a second period of one two. That's what I'm talking about. You know, that that's where that's where he was out of position, you know. you know, y you allow a coach to come on the mat instead of do what's the proper procedure when a coach has a challenge? Not to talk to your assistant referee, right? Yeah. You control the match. Coach, go to the table. Yeah. Okay. What's your question? You know, and as soon as you lose control, you know, you have a cormet or you have somebody that's a high level, high level coach, guess what? You know, that distinguishes you between a, you know, a a a one point or a half a point away because you didn't control the match. Yeah. I I think those are all incredible insights that I I look at it even a little better. Like my challenge for evaluators. Not because yeah, you do have to determine. I mean, we have a process in California. For those of you who don't know, we ⁓ We only have one state meet and we have twenty-four officials. And so it's very, very elite and very much an honor to get selected. Fifteen of those officials are an automatic bring back and kind of follow the NCAA format on that. So in reality, you have nine spots available every year amongst fifty to a hundred officials applying. And of those nine, most of them have already done the state meet. So it it's incredibly difficult to get selected. And we spend a tremendous amount of time not only as state officials, like we're reviewing people. And Randy Hartman, who was the predecessor to Abram for the evaluator, used to always tell me, Dale, I've I've one rule. I don't want an official to get their whistle pulled. And now as I that is our goal. I've talked to a guy in Washington, I've talked to Utah, Colorado, Minnesota. This is unheard of throughout the United States. That we are California, not we, not me. California will say, we're gonna stop you during the meet. And it's very humbling. Yeah, what happened is yeah, we've had that twice happen twice. More than that. It happened three of my first four years. Yeah, the last yeah, you're right. It hasn't happened for a while. It hasn't happened for a while. But ⁓ when a whistle is taken away, we don't remove you as an official. You become an assistant. All you do is assist all day. And that is pretty humbling. Yeah. And and our goal is to ha have that not happen. Yeah. And and it's unfortunate it happens. And I think what happens is ⁓ is is is, you know, we have this philosophy in USA wrestling. Hey, ⁓ you had a tough match, go cool down. Yeah, leave, go, go do whatever. And and sometimes we don't do that. We we we I I wanna do another one. I wanna do another that pride that, you know, hey, I can do it. And the best thing to do is just relax. Okay, I made a mistake. Let's regroup. You're a good official, you're here because you've earned that position. Go back, regroup and and just relax. Don't don't take it personal. It shouldn't be personal. And and and and and that's a tough thing to do. So that is our goal is to make sure that we get officials that can handle j the the the the pressure. You know, that's the hard part is is that like I said, we probably have done high level wrestling. High level wrestling, but but think about the California State Championships. You get there on a Wednesday. All right. You start your day when? Thursday. Yeah. And so we go through that whole process of, you know, now that we have ⁓ you know the ⁓ the the female wrestling, the the women wrestling. That adds another complexity to you as a whole because we use the same officials and it's a grueling it's a little different. You get tired, you get you get match after match, you go from, you know, a tough match, not so tough match, a tough match, and you have to be on your toes at the state meet. You can't relax and you don't know who you're gonna get and how hard it's gonna be. So you you've gotta be a hundred percent the whole time and that takes a lot. Well a lot of mental pressure. I have a big shout out to how California does it and While didn't understand it for a long time, ⁓ we want the right people because ultimately it's about the wrestlers and the time that they put in. And like you mentioned with USA wrestling, we want the right wrestler to win. And so the fact that California will hold us accountable is is I think a good thing. But yeah, that pressure and that that's another factor, right? And I'm sure that's some you walk around and you see officials that own the mat and control the mat, and that you know, I I watch NCAA officials, and there is no mistake in. Who's in charge of the math? And they're phenomenal. So California does a great job with that. And I know that in your local association here in San Diego, we're trying to always get our our next wrestler, our next official ready. And so why don't you talk a little bit about your role in the San Diego as vice president and some of your instructional responsibilities? Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Dale. Yeah, you know what? I've had this now, what, my going my third year? This is my third year, and and I've seen that. growth in in in ⁓ San Diego. When I first came on board, it was it was pretty weak. And one of the challenges we have here in San Diego is the attrition rate just due to the ⁓ the ⁓ the types of officials we get that part of the military family and they and they move college students so they transition, they graduate, they move on to ⁓ to another place. And that's always been a challenge here in San Diego. You know, we've had the we've had the privilege of having up to five or six state officials here f ⁓ from San Diego into that one of the goals that I came in here is I I wanted to make sure that we were well represented in the state of California for officials. And so how do you do that? I mean, when you don't have the talent base, when you don't have the educational structure to get you there. You know, and I've been to various organizations, traveled throughout the United States. I've refereed for Finney. You know, I've gone all over the the the country and refereed in in different capacities. And and some of their levels of trainings are good, some are not. And you get to see California has some pretty damn good officials. Yeah. And so So so one of the things that I wanted to bring into the ⁓ the organization is structure. I wanted to create, you know, I I'm an engineer by by by by schooling, you know, retired from ⁓ aerospace engineer in North of Grumman for thirty four years. So I had that structure, you know, being a vice president and charge of organizations. You know, we had structures, we had meetings, we had, you know, objectives, we had measurable objectives and everything wasn't subjective, you know, we had metrics, et cetera. And I didn't see that we had that well defined in in San Diego. At times we did, at times we didn't, depending on who was running the organization, et cetera. And when I came in, you know, folks like you, you know, like the Tony, Tony has been there for a while, you know, the Sortinos of the world and and and and and and that board that we have really wanted to make a difference. Young board. And and and that's what kind of exhilarated me. You know, working with these young engineers, kept me always in tune of what was on, working with these young officials now came in and said, Yeah, these guys really wanna really want to make a change. What can I do to help? Get that with my experience and bring some of that. You know, and with your, you know, educational background, with your schooling background, you create that structure and you force me, you know, I can procrastinate some like 'cause I have so many things I like to do. Or busy doing a lot of things. Yeah. So I can procrastinate on this one to put this one off, you know. I'm the treasurer of the Fall Books Mint Club. And so that keeps me busy, you know. I ⁓ I have I'm retired and I'm busier than now because my wife's got a lot of honeydews and I'm yeah, they live on four acres and I'm constantly working, finding something to do. So bringing that structure into into San Diego has really paid off. You could see the excitement we have because when we bring an official and take them, you know, like Chris Hortino is a good example. You know, he's out there and people want to know where are you from, San Diego? And you t or or take a Carla or take like, you know, ⁓ Catalina Catalina now that she's growing They see that we have a good structure in place and these rifle we're producing talent. Yeah. And and I'm excited about that because I I wanna continue to develop that within our organization to get more representation at the USA level and at the high school and college level. And that's exciting because because people are recognizing, not people but other organizations are are recognizing that we have this level of capability. And that's a that's a testament to the board amount of work we're doing to make ⁓ you know, ⁓ San Diego wrestling a ⁓ an awesome officiating association. You've been driving hard on that and I think that that's definitely showing and the fruit is now blossoming. And I hear it, like you said, all over the state, people will be like, Well, what are you guys doing? And then other countries be like, Hold on, what? You guys like we we meet more often, we discuss more often, but we don't just we're not just reading the rule book. We Connor with his tough calls, ⁓ we try to bring in a little education thing. So we're doing breakout sessions. We're Yeah, those breakout sessions have been awesome. I think we're engaged. See what the the the thing that's helped San Diego and I I've been to other other other associations is is that we get our membership engaged and and we're not pontificating because I'm Sergio, you're Dell, you've done college level, you're gonna listen to me, and this is how you're gonna appreciate. We don't do that. I think what we're doing is we're bringing what we are doing is we're bringing in the membership and we're getting them engaged. You know, it's like a teacher. You know, I was before I became engineer, I was a math teacher, you know. And I learned math even more because I taught it. Yeah. And so now that you're actually on the mat officiating, now you've got to bring it in and teach it to these mem to our members. You're understanding them better. You know, you y you have to actually look at well, what do they mean by that? Yeah. You know, the case book. I mean, that's one of the things that referees don't usually read. No. And that case book isn't bad because it has all these different scenarios that can occur. And that's so important to read the rules, understand the rules and then see how they're applying the case book. Great point. And so we're we're trying and we're definitely a work in progress. And I know that we've already met three or four times and we've already planned out the year, but we're constantly like a wrestler. A wrestler from March to July wants to get better. From July to November wants to get better. If you take the whole offseason off and you come back next year, you haven't gotten better. And officials are the same way. And so your emphasis on getting officials involved with USA wrestling is They're on the map. Yeah, it's slightly different rules. But I think there's more similarity than we we we give it than we give it credit for. And so you and I both know that there is no secret to being on the mat. And now you have this ability to do freestyle Greco. Now you have the ability to do off season tournaments and we try to network and get officials in. But I'm always amazed at how few officials, you know, that in November and December they come around, they go, Okay, I'm ready. Like, well, we're in season. We're you're all gonna have tournaments now. What did you do for six months why nobody was doing anything? You know it brings some thought of the collegiate high school level, you make good money. You know, they're paying well. You get paid by the hour, and some in some cases, you get paid by the matches and others. And there's always been that in USA wrestling, it's a volunteer sport and you don't make money. You don't. Yeah. ⁓ say wrestling has changed that. I mean, they're they're they're they're they're they understand that and And and have now you get paid y you know, you're probably making fifty cents an hour, but yeah but ⁓ you're you you're getting remunerated for for your you know, a little bit of travel, a little bit of time there. And and that's a challenge that ⁓ we've had is because they pay well on the folkstyle side, I don't want to officiate because I don't get paid. Yeah. You know, and I can understand that today's economy and the way price of gas and all that stuff. I can understand that. I see a lot of the officials now, you know, that the the Sammy Julians are doing in C double A's, you know, before he only did USA wrestling. And a lot of you know, you have that USA USA wrestling officials, a lot of the old guys, I don't want to do that folk style stuff. That that that's terrible. Or the folk style guys, you know, ⁓ I don't want to do that freestyle stuff. But the good officials that that understand that and there's there's a lot of them, and I don't wanna I don't wanna, you know, belittle any any folk style official that doesn't do USA wrestling. It makes you a better official. Yeah. It it it it allows you to also communicate better to the wrestling community. You get to understand losses and wins and passion, you know, because when a wrestler is out there, when a coach is coaching a kid, what do they want to do? They're advocating for their kid. And so what it teaches you as a wrestler, as an official, is don't take it personal. Don't get upset. You know, I love it when a coach defends his kid. Yeah. But when it makes it personal, then we gotta stop that. And we've got tools in our toolbox to accommodate for that. And so to me, officiating all levels, you know, I've done you know, like you you got you got, you know, used to be s we used to have submission wrestling. I don't know if you remember that. We used to yeah, you know a a a good ⁓ friend of my son there. Yeah, it was you you submiss you would wrestle, but it was a submission and you would tap out wrestling, as USA wrestling. You know, you got you now you got beach wrestling, which is exciting. So you've had different levels. And to me, ⁓ you know, if you like one, you should like them all because it is wrestling. I I was guilty of that. I think, but I also had two young kids and so trying to balance that work, life, family, all that. But the reality is the more time you spend on the map, the better you'll be as an official, regardless of the style. And so if USA is a great opportunity, which it is all throughout the spring, phenomenal. If you can't get into that many off season folk style tournaments, so if you're not connected with RMN or Tyrant or stuff like that, you should be doing something. Something now. And secondly, it helps you it's it's like when I'm a teacher and I go to my students' football game. ⁓ number one, I love football though too. And so I love high school sports and I'll go to everything. But when my student sees me at their game. They're excited. They're excited. They I have more credibility. I have more clout. When these coaches and athletes see you or other people at off season tournaments, whether it's USA or folk style, you're earning street credit. You are now And and that's I mean, maybe it's a game, maybe it's but it's networking. It's developing relationships. And so getting better while we network, I think is huge. And it just it takes time, takes a lot of effort. And I'm super thankful for all the officials. We need them all. And I'm thankful for the ones that I mean, some people officiate three sports. And I'm like, wow, they're that's crazy. But then I look at my schedule throughout the whole year and go, Am I really ever off? You know, like I'm always somewhat involved. So I used to have August off. Okay. But now we don't because of beach wrestling, because we are national championships, is August fifteenth at Huntington Beach putting a plug in for it. Yeah. And ⁓ and so hopefully ⁓ we get a good turnout. But ⁓ that used to be my only month off and now it's not. So it's year round, pretty much. We'll we'll be doing a behind the scenes ⁓ in Huntington Beach for that second week of August going up and talking and I have a podcast dropping here shortly with our USA national beach coach. ⁓ Tim Box. Tim Box. Yeah. So great guy. What's lucky enough to come in the studio and then Sergio's gonna help me out, maybe introduce me to some of the officials and athletes and the whole idea is we want to promote wrestling and that you and I both love wrestling. And if if you don't see our passion, then we're not doing our job. And so let let's let's dive into the theing from the neutral perspective. So on our feet. Let's talk about some simple things. I'll throw questions at you. Feel free to expand, to change the subject. You know, however you want to do it. Okay. But ⁓ thoughts on counting shots. Well, you know, some referees count shots. ⁓ you know, you hear the coach, my my wrestler shot five times. Yeah. Okay. Were they good shots? What did he do after the shot? Did he shoot just to shoot just to he knows I'm counting shots? You know, I used to always teach my kids to wrestle to the referee. You know, if I know that referee isn't gonna call Stalin, guess tell my kids? Wheel it. Yeah. Because I know he's not gonna c call Stalling. So y y you you you as a coach need to understand, okay, that official's gonna call Stalin and you're not gonna get away with it. Yeah. So counting shots, y you know, I I'll look at it if they're legit shots. Yeah. ⁓ you know, the the offensive wrestler shot after he shot, he he did a reshot. What did the defensive wrestler do? Did he engage? Did he back away? Did he circle? Yeah. And so yeah, county shots can be effective in a lot of cases if they're legit shots. Yeah. And I will look at those. It could be a tool. One avenue. Yes. And ⁓ for me personally, I I just keep a differential. So I count shots, but I'm not an engineer. I'm a PE major. So I just keep differentials. And so one of my little suggestions is I go plus one, plus two, minus one, you know. So I don't go green has five shots, red has three shots. I just go green has a plus two differential right now. And I'm aware of that at all times. And so usually for me and like you, I only count legit shots. So when they're reaching and tapping or not putting a solid like they're not putting themselves in a little danger, I guess would be another term. At at three, I'm I'm probably gonna ring somebody up, especially if there's no scoring and Yeah. And and that's that I was gonna pull the thread on that. Okay. So if there's no scoring, yeah, I'm looking at shots. But you know, I I got a score of ten to two. And the coach is yelling, he hasn't made one shot. Well, the score's ten two. And so the style of wrestling is a little different. He's more of a defensive wrestler that scores off the offensive action. Does that mean he's stalling? No, he's just knows how to aggressively wrestle to avoid being called for stalling. Now it's ten two. So am I gonna penalize a wrestler that has ten two because he hasn't made a shot? No. Now it's zero zero. Yeah, I'm gonna probably look at the shot count because ⁓ you know, what am I doing after I did the shot? So if that wrestler has sprawled, done short defense, countered, spun around, scored three. They're back on their feet. The other guy shoots short. Now it's six to one. Well, the other guy took two shots and the other guy scored. He's not not doing anything. And so I agree with you that that's I I'm not getting the factor into of the differential at that point because scoring is happening. Correct. And like some coaches will be like, Well, we shot all the time. Like, well coach, maybe you should teach your guy to shoot a little better. Or shoot less. And see, he just got scored on three or four times. Correct. And ⁓ yes, effort and wrestling aggressively, but that defensive guy is not not wrestling aggressively. You know, you talked about if you shoot on me and I just sprawl and I back up and we're back on our feet, and then you shoot and I sprawl and back up, yeah, I'm defensive. Correct. And you're offensive, and that's a difference. And and I like to reward that aggressor. But just because somebody is doing something and the other person scores. So so you so The the the philosophy or the thought process that I have is because of USA wrestling, what's the definition of passivity, which is stalling in in freestyle? Okay. Do you know what that is? No, not in freestyle. So so in freestyling Greco, the act of not scoring is passivity. ⁓ okay. So you could be shooting, shooting, shooting, but if you're not scoring, you're still passive. Okay. You haven't scored. So so so you take that along with with the the folk style mentality and you bring it, Okay, yeah, you're aggressively wrestling, but are you scoring? Okay. Okay, so so you gotta kinda break that in and move that into the to to the to the to the mentality of folk style. Yes, I've shot a shot, but this guy's scoring. So so so you have to look at that. If the score is zero zero, yeah, we're probably gonna award the the most aggressive. Yeah. Right. And we do the same thing, we do the same thing in freestyle. We offer passivity for one of them, and then we'll pick on the other one if everything is the same. Yeah. Or if not, we continue to pick on the same wrestler. Same thing in folk style. I mean, you're gonna look at who's being the most aggressive wrestler. And you could tell. By the way they by the way they their feet. Are they on their toes? Are they on their heels as they're backing up? Okay? Or are are they circling in the center? Or or are they circling and backing up and avoiding or are they constantly looking at the clock? You as a as a seasoned official, pick up on these little things that that these wrestlers do to avoid wrestling. Yeah. To to stall. You understand the nuances. Correct. Yeah. And younger officials don't have that insight yet because they haven't been put in those positions. You know, you're not necessarily against counting. Correct. I'm not but but that's not where we'd stop. No, absolutely not. So let's talk about and I see this I I really think UWW has emphasized this. And I think now it's huge in college and high school is starting to gather. Your butt needs to be facing the center. Like you're now the person owning that mat. You know, you're the one that's driving the aggression versus When your butt is facing out of bounds, you're now again, you could then be scoring, and then we got no problem. But if you got two people and one person's own in the center and one person's not, it how do you factor that into it? You that there was a great video that just came out and we commented on it. It's that six seconds. ⁓ stalling, yeah. Stalling when the rest two on one when the rest are back right straight out of bounds, six seconds in the match, and what would you call? So so so I I respond and says, you know what? By rule book, there's a definition of stalling in the neutral position. However, what did the other guy do to score other than grab a two-hour? Correct, correct. Six seconds into the match, would I call stall could I call could I call Stalling by definition? Absolutely. Would I call Stalin now that I that I that I'm experienced and I've had this level of experience under my belt? Probably not. Yeah. And and and let me tell you why. You have to strategically manage a match. The match is going to start and you're going to go six minutes and you're going to you're going to evaluate that match in that whole process. So you have to be smart enough. So if you called Stalling within six seconds, put you in a predicament now because Because now what happens is if that same situation occurs and you don't call it, you're not consistent. Yeah. So so maybe you maybe you take a couple of things as the wrestlers are coming back and say, say, I'm watching, you backed off. I'm gonna get you for stalling, you do that again. Now you've done that to the wrestler quietly. Yeah. You know, and you'll bring them back to the center. That's right. That's right. That's right. So so you as an official have to manage that matching. You could call it by definition, and you wouldn't be in the wrong. Yeah. You could yell that. Hey, six seconds in the match, how can you call stalling? But it's very clear that his butt was facing Matt and he backed straight out of bounds with two on one. So that's that's stally. Yeah. And we don't have the luxury in folk style of what? Step out. Yeah. So if he steps out, you lose one. So so so if if to me if that was in folk style, it would it would it we would prevent some of that to come in. What do you think ⁓ so for that scenario, if you you haven't seen, look at Connor Nestler's Tough Calls on the Mat came out. Right now it's July seventeenth, and so somewhere around there you'll see it. It's a Russian two on one. Literally right off the whistle, match just started. Like six seconds, I think it was. And he just basically the question then becomes, did the guy back out? Did the guy push him out? But he clearly didn't do anything with the two on one other than get it. Now in college, and you'll see where I'm leading because this is gonna be a high school thing this year too. ⁓ in college we have it's either action or it's action out of bounds or yeah. Are you gonna call them in college? We you still have the same philosophy. You you you have the you have the letter of the rule, you have the spirit of the rule. You still have to manage the match. You know, can you call it? Absolutely, you can call it. It's there, it's in the book. You can call it. And so am I gonna call it and put myself in a predicament where it's gonna be a tough match and these guys are gonna be doing this, and now now I gotta, you know, I got a stalling, I got I got a warning, I got a one, I got a one. You know, what's the next one? A two, a two, and then after that. And so so you have to manage the match because if you're gonna have an aggressive match, you're gonna put yourself a predicament. Now I'm I I'm not saying that don't call it, but you have to strategically put yourself in a you have to develop a philosophy how you're going to do that. If you have a philosophy that says, okay, as you recall when in some of my younger years, you know, I was very strict on Stalling. And that when they back up, boom, I got it. Like, you know. Sergio, ten years ago when I first started, you would have called Stalling. Yeah. And that got me in trouble at some of the state meets because, you know, I didn't manage it correctly. And as a result of that, put me now in a position where God I got fifteen seconds left in the match and he did that and I didn't call stall either. Well let so assume let me play devil's advocate then. So now this year, as officials, even in high school, we have to make a signal when we go out of bounds. So we now have to say it was action. But we don't have that signal yet in high school. Well they will this year. They will? Yeah. I I don't know what it will be. Yeah, it w it will be a signal, but ⁓ yeah. I assume it's going to be like college. It's either going to be action or it's gonna be stalling by backing out or pushing out. As an official How do I maintain integrity in a scenario like that? And they go out of bounds in six seconds. A hard time calling action. There was an action. Like somebody didn't do something. Now, but like in high school before, we just call them out of bounds, we go back. But there might be some level of accountability to us. Like, how do we call that? But I think it's gonna be a transition. You know, when when when the rules came out, you know, for drop downs, et cetera, in college, it took us a while to transition. We made some mistakes, we made some adjustments. We're gonna the same thing in high school wrestling. And I think that ⁓ in that scenario, what I would do is I would not call Stalling in six seconds. Okay. But I think your point is valid that regardless of so if if you call it by the letter and you call Stalin, or if you understand the nuance maybe a little bit deeper, and then you have that conversation, they're both trying to meet one objective. Gentlemen, we need to wrestle in the center. We need to score. Grabbing a hold and pushing them out, not acceptable. Getting in a hold and backing out, not acceptable. You agree. Both been talked to now. And we're we're trying to create action in the center, right? Correct. Our job is to stimulate action. Yeah. And so there might be more, like you nuance it, there might be more ways to skin the cat on this. But that's kind of the idea that these calls, whether they're action or a stalling back out, push out, are to communicate to wrestlers and coaches and fans, we don't like what just happened. The intent of what you're thinking that's followed. So when you make The stalling call the next time you backside. Everybody knows he gave him an opportunity. He did the same exact thing. Now if he does it again and you don't call it, now that's on you. Yeah. So now let's take so we started with ⁓ counting shots and then we went to like ⁓ the push out back out kind of quickly in the match and some nuances there. What are some things on the edge? Like when two wrestlers are wrestling and they're on the on the edge and one person shoots, what's your philosophy on that defensive person? Like obviously if they sprawl and they go out of bounds, that's part of wrestling. That's action. But sometimes they use that out of bounds as a get ideal free card, right? And so what do you look for in those kind of situations that would enable you to make a stall call or not make a stall call? So so to me, when I'm refereeing and you see a lot of the referees that are higher level when a wrestler edge edge of the map, what does a wrestler start what does a referee start doing? Center. Action. You're very vocal and everybody hears you that you're being vocal. Yeah. Okay. And if that wrestler is listening to you, I'm going to look at the feet. So, so so looking at the feet are very important because you can see what the wrestler's intent is going to be. If the wrestler all of a sudden, when you say circle center, changes direction laterally, you see that he's listening to you. Yeah. You see that he's working towards the center. He's making an attempt or an effort to get back to the center or to wrestle. If if if you see those toes just backing up and he's on his toes and he's backing out of bounds, he's being passive. He's he's he's he's he's defending and he's not wrestling. If I shoot and the guy goes out of bounds as he's backing up, I'm gonna call stalling. Okay. But if the shot occurred and there was action occurred there, again, I gotta say action occurred at the edge of the mat, I'm bringing back to the center. And so understanding the intent of the defensive wrestler who's backing up is important to look at to look at passive. And that's what I look for. What is the what are the feet doing? Are they listening to my my command? Are they going back and forth? Are they trying to make an attempt to move forward and gain control? Okay. All good knowledge right there. Another thing that I'll I'll I'll use or I'll hear from coaches a lot is what do you want him to do right there? Because in the rule book, I'm justified. They're not making an effort to stay in the ten foot circle, let alone the forty foot circle. And so by definition, that's stalling. And and I do understand that if action is right on the edge and one person shoots, another person sprawls, that's a wrestling move that naturally occurs. And we don't have a push out rule. We don't you know, so It's subjective, but that's kind of how it works. And so coaches are always like, what do you want them to do? And so I I challenge myself. If I'm one of those wrestlers and I'm gonna call them for stalling, I better in my brain have two or three things that I think they could have done other than create a restart. And I I don't know about you, I've du dove into the language and it's something that I hear from the Randy Hartmans of the world and these really great officials. We talk about it all the time and we use it. When you create restart. Like you create stalemates. That's an act of stalling. I can't find it in the book. I can't find it in the case book. Who made the restart? Who made you blow the whistle? Would you agree that that's something that we use as a judgment? Absolutely. I know in college we look at that as okay, who who made me do a restart? Yeah. You made me blow the whistle out of bounds. You're stalling. Yeah. So yeah, so we do look at that. I think there there has to be more a clear definition. To define that in in in our folk style for high school because it isn't there. It's inherently, you know, implied based on our experience. Or we need to do a better job of teaching it. That constantly bringing it forward. Hey, they had an option and they chose the restart. Or they chose to use the out of bounds. Edge of the mat's i is is tough. A lot of the younger officials will do what at the edge of the mat because they're afraid to make the call. What do they do? They blow the whistle. And so A lot of scoring occurs at the edge of the mat. And with today's rules with the, you know, with the you know, single single point of contact on the mat in high school and then and then we have the cylinder in college, we have to allow them to wrestle at the edge of the mat. Some blow it way too early. Some way way too early. And so a lot of scoring. So so a lot of the times where we go out and evaluating, we look at, well, why'd blow the whistle so soon? Well, w I was afraid they were gonna no, no don't be afraid. You've got plenty of opportunities to blow the whistle and and and don't try to catch the wrestlers, get out of the way, but let them wrestle at the edge of the mat. And I and and so we have to look at and and you know, a thought came in when you were talking about edge of the map. What got me to the edge? So sometimes what happens is stalling occurred here and all of a sudden I stop here because I think I'm gonna wrestle and then I you know, ⁓ Power used to be really good at this, you know, or or you ⁓ Fresno used ⁓ college used to be really good at that. They got at the edge of the mat. You know, Abbas was really good at that. You know, ⁓ he would try to shoot and if something happened before they had the push out rule, they were out of bounds and nobody scored. Yeah. And so so what happens is what got me to this to the edge. You gotta take that in consideration. That's managing the the match. I didn't call Stalin because of here, I called Stalin because you went from here all the way here and then you decided, well, I'm gonna bail out because this guy's attacking. I use the analogy you need to catch them with their hand in the cookie jar. Correct. And so Good analogy. If I have two wrestlers and one's backing up. And I'm like, ⁓ they're backing up. And then I think they're all the way at the edge now. And I'm like, he backs up even a little more, I'm gonna ding him. Well, what happens is if they're backing up and you think they're all the way done, and then you go to call them and that guy shoots. Yeah, it makes you look back. Now you look dumb. Yeah. Now you look and so it's often and I feel like this is where we focus too much on the edge and not like what you said. You still have traditional stalling. What got you there? Yeah, traditional stalling. We that's what the term we use in college. And I think Now that we have a push out back out and action in high school for this year, we're gonna need to also emphasize that to wrestlers that or officials. What got them there? And you need to catch them with their hand in the cookie jar why they're doing what we don't want them to do. What is not while you're being vocal so everybody knows that what you're thinking. And I will give usually one verbal warning of center, contact, action, wrestle. They all mean the same thing. But I talk in the pre-meet about this to all the rest. I tell ⁓ I have a little list and I they all mean the same thing. I think some or two Macs after that, you gotta do something. Yeah, but I'm not ⁓ I guess it's my parenting philosophy also. Hey, don't do this. And then they do that. Say, No, really. Don't do that. No, don't do that. Hey, don't do that. Yeah, hey, don't do that. Guess he's gonna do? That's what I tell earlier. I'm gonna tell my kids to wrestle to the referee and the referee's gonna call it. It's on them. They know. They know. High level how you wrestle with ironically, you know my son very well. ⁓ A JC State champ and now officiating and pretty good. Doing a great job, yeah. But ⁓ taking after his dad. He could in college, once he's now understanding the officiating side and that, even at the college level, he knows who's gonna call it. My kids are that way too. He he but the difference in college, you don't really shoot them out of bounds because those college kids are good. You shoot and it's not a legit hard shot. Boom. They score on you. And so I would always emphasize cadence. like just shooting somebody out is irrelevant. We need to think about is that official going to call it or not. And if if that aggression took them to the edge and you feel comfortable in a underhook and a wrist or something like that, you just keep working for that single or keep working for that high C and that kid's gonna react. And when they react, there's your shock. Yeah. And if they don't react, that's your cell call. And like you said, we I don't think we'll fix it as far as all high school officials, but I feel like in college or at the higher levels of high school I have a pretty good idea when they get to the edge when that official is gonna call it. You know, stalling hurts wrestling. It really does. You know, Gary Mayab, ⁓ you know, the national champ national coach for the for Greco T USA team, you know, once said, It it is your responsibility as a referee to enforce the rules. We are we are not good wrestlers internationally because our referees don't enforce the rules the way they should be enforced. And so we create this false false sense of security among our ⁓ wrestlers. Because we're not enforcing the rules. The coaches don't have to like, but the coaches appreciate when we call the rules because now they know that when I do a certain back out, etc., the referees are gonna call it. If we're all trained that way, because that's the hardest call to make in wrestling, is stalling. Because it's so sub it's so subjective. I see, I wanna change that. I wanna change it to it's not the hardest call. And if you know and understand wrestling and you can defend what those positions are, you can call it. Because I feel like When you're on the mat refing Sergio, Stalling's not hard for you to call. But we give it this. This is difficult. Now I will I don't want the kid to lose because I'm gonna call Stalling. 100% say we're not as consistent as we should be. Correct. At especially local levels and some states and things like that. But I feel like we almost go with a defeatist mentality. And and something that I want to emphasize this year, Stalling is not hard to understand. But like you said, we need to call it. And I look at ten, fifteen years ago, coaches used to bring officials to the table. And if the coach was a jerk, they'd ring ⁓ up. If the coach wasn't, they kind of let it go. Well, what does that create? More coaches going to the table, more breaks, less wrestling, not good for wrestling. We need to hold coaches accountable. It's a highly aerobic sport. And it's not a perfect But how do you do that? How do you do that, Dale? The challenge we have is the coaches don't know the rules. The rules are very dynamic. And so what happens is, you know, a coach could maybe a coach a lot, we have a lot of walk-ons now. And so they don't know the rules. So so you've been in a lot of situations where you this coach actually we kinda look at them, are you crazy? Yeah, you can't say that, but but they don't know the rules. So then when you implement them, they they freak out. But it but if you don't implement, they think that's the rule. Correct. Correct. And so we we have to enforce it. In San Diego, we now enforce that rule. And every coach knows. They coaches ain't don't like it. I'm not I'm not being mean. Co a coach's misconduct is just you took a break in the action, we didn't change. But they also know that when Dale's out there, when Sergio's out there and Connor's out there, they're not gonna stall because they're gonna get called. But when someone young younger, they'll try it, they'll play ⁓ and they'll pull them off. That's kind of my point that looking for that consistency, looking for just this ability to understand wrestling, which takes some time. The also the flip side is And and I always talk to my son about this. I I think he's an excellent official, but he can't call Stalling exactly like me because he can't defend it exactly like and he doesn't have the experience yet. And so he will find himself in trouble trying to be exactly like me or me trying you know, if I were to you know, year ten, I'm fired up, I'm ready to go, I'm gonna watch Sergio, he's a great mentor. I still need to take what you do and apply it to me. Correct. And don't emulate me. I learn from you and I do that and then I go, Would I call that? And if I would, how would I defend that? Exactly. That's the key. And we've had you know, we've had some of our young officials try to emulate and do some of the things that we experience referees do. Yeah. And what do the coaches do? Would they do that to us? No, they won't because they can't get away with it. But ⁓ they can't do that because they have a earned that level of respect based on their experience. I mean, we want them to do that. We want them to be consistent, we want them to call stalling. But I think coaches and all that need to also understand the level of officiating changes. Yeah. Just like the level of wrestling changes. And so when you get to the state meet in California or you go to a national thing, the expectation is there. Yeah. You know, you you made a comment about you want to change that way of you know stalling how we look at it. Yeah. Let me tell you why. In USA wrestling, we have a national organization and when something happens we blast it out nationally. And everybody does the same thing. In in in California, how many different associations we have? And that's the challenge we have. So I applaud the everything you're doing here with Full Circle, what you're doing with your academy. To me, that's that's that's crucial because we need to develop a standard that we're all going to follow. And it has to be a standard. You know, like we have that in in in in ⁓ N C double A, the the handbook that we have. And that that's or the videos or the videos they put out. So so it as as California transitions to do that, we need to really focus on on how we call it across the state and it has to be uniform. That's a tough haul, but doable. No, and but we're at the stage where we have the technology to do it. Heck if a PE teacher can create a platform or a podcast thing and get five hundred thousand views. A smart PE teacher. But well, I don't know about smart, but I was willing to do it. Yeah. And and like I said, I'm not the best teacher. I'm not the best official, but I'm gonna work hard. And and it's been rewarded. And this is kind of what we're doing. We're bringing it to light. And guess what? I'm willing, you're willing to put yourself out there. And if we say something, we're gonna instantly hear it. If people are like, That's bull crap. Yeah. And when we look at a hundred different officials throughout California, we don't all agree. You know, and you're taking the philosophy that we've we've done in San Diego County Association is taking the membership to make us better. You're doing the same thing. You're taking the community of wrestling that spreads across the United States to bring us together to share our ideas. And that to me is valuable because it's not Del Hanover's idea. It's not just Sergio. You're taking that community and you're molding that, you know, this to t to reflect what we think because it it takes a it takes a village. It takes a community to create this. And I applaud you for that effort. Well, thank you. And it's definitely is a village. And yeah, I I did it. And I put my name behind it and that's risky and vulnerable. But rewarding at the same time. A hundred percent. And you know what? If no one gets anything out of this, I am going to be a better official next year than I was this year because I'm all in and I'm going all in. Well, like you said earlier, you're now you're now driven to understand the rule. Like for example, we just talked about What is the definition of control? You know, back in the day, we used to have a definition that it used to be two seconds in the rule book. Yeah. You don't have that today. You know, control is felt. And so now that you've put a lot more time into that, you're actually delving into deeper into the definitions of what these control are, you know, out of bounds, you know, all those things and it's making you a better, it's gonna make us a it's gonna make me a better ref, because I'm gonna focus on that. Even if you don't agree, and I'm okay with that. Like there's calls we go on Facebook groups and things like that. And not everybody agrees. I I would say half of them. When they post those videos, they are kind of controversial. So they're not just black and white usually. But I would say half of those are are fairly easy calls. The other is how you defend it and your positioning. And and those are my teachable points. I'm like, okay, whether you call this or not, where's the referee in position? Were they not? And did they follow the proper like sometimes I'll call out officials not for the call. But because of position, ⁓ not gonna Right? Control the controllables. The judgment will come and we'll have some debates. Yeah, that's part of the evaluation that we look at. You know, a referee made a fall, a call in a fall, and you can you you can see clearly that he was out of position to make the ball. How can he make the call? Did he change levels, et cetera? Was he positioned to make that call? Did he use his assistant referee correctly? You know, the assistant referee was over here, you're over here, and you didn't transition correctly, you know. How could you have made that call because you couldn't have seen it? You know? And I've been in a lot of situations like that where you have to rely on your assistant. And sometimes you've got to say, you know what? I trust Del Hanover. You know, I wasn't there to see it, Dell. What did you have? Because I was out of position. And if Dell Hanover says, Sergio, I had a takedown at the edge of the mat and I didn't see it, I gotta be, I gotta be assured of myself to say, you know what? Boom, three takedowns. Like we don't have to be right for the call. All has to be right. Right. And so sometimes, like you said, especially out of bounds or on the edge, you and I are repping, we're on opposite sides. He's around, heads there, but I can't totally tell if he has the other shoulder or the other hip or the other leg. And maybe I anticipate the call and I call the takedown, we go out of bounds. And then it's a matter I I mean, I believe in this so much that we don't do a good job teaching two man mechanics. No, we don't. We don't do it enough to teach it. Yeah. In my advanced class. I ha we'll have a wh entire module on that. We need that. You you could tell we don't use it enough, just like three man mechanics, because we know how to work together. You know, I was doing a ⁓ a final, a division one final at the Chapera High School and ⁓ I'm the I'm the referee and I'm refereeing the match and I'm I'm sitting there down looking for a fall and I'm looking through the mat and what do I see on the other side? Two eyeballs looking at me, my assistant referees on the mat, help me with the fall and I just stood up and I just came over, you know, eventually made the call. About the referee and goes, Don't do that again. You stay up there and look to make sure that I got a legal hold, et cetera. And that referee had never been put in that position. They hadn't been taught. Two years ago when Caden's first year of refing, and again, he understands wrestling. He understands that. And he has a dad that officiates and coaches and all that. And we're doing the finals of a Sierra Nevada tournament. And he's assisting me. And I'm like, Why are you over here? Get over there. And he moves over. And I'm like, and afterwards I'm like, he goes, No one ever taught me. And Because he's so young and because it's so new, that's not really an emphasis for first to say they don't they don't get that experience very often. But if we don't expect our younger, newer officials to do it, how can we expect our older veteran? Like if he learns right now when he's 20 what an outside official should do, he's gonna be so far ahead of the game. And I I know at the state meet you can see people disengage. It's something that Andy Eikele and I, he's a official. I think you met him a couple years ago at Sierra Nevada or Reno. Andy, I know Andy from Washington. Great beard. A lot like me. He he progressed very fast because he has great mechanics, judgment, and all that. But one of the things that we are looking for are talked about is this ability to not only make calls, but work as an assistant and be part of a team. And if you don't teach it, they're not gonna learn. Yeah. Have the confidence to to say, hey, deal what you see. Yeah. You know. Have a little time out. Go up to the corner where, you know, nobody can hear you there and talk. And I think one of the things that you run into is an experienced whistle, inexperienced, you know, AR, that fear that that well, I don't wanna, you know, challenge, you know. And and and sometimes, you know, I I I can, you know, some officials I work for, Sergio, I don't want you to say anything. Just stand there. Just follow me. Don't say a word. I think that philosophy that that has gone away a lot more. We've evolved. You still got a couple of, you know, ⁓ you know, hardliners, but I think that's evolved and you have a lot more interaction and courage to talk. You know, now with the intercoms, it even makes it a lot easier to to to be able to communicate it to me. I I'm really a big believer in intercoms and ⁓ and it it works well. I know San Diego, we just bought eight this year. Yeah, yeah. So I'm looking forward to to working with the younger officials that way. It's a it's definitely a a tool that ⁓ it's to our benefit. Okay. Well let's get back to ⁓ maybe a couple final segments or questions here on stalling. ⁓ you had talked about toes and understanding, okay, is that defensive person on their toes trying to drive in or are they on the heels willingly backing out? Correct. And so that I think is a huge thing that people don't often understand. What are some things upper body you look for with where the head is placed or other things to determine who might be pushing? Cause I think this year's going to be a huge emphasis, right? As we are you pushing, were you backing or was it action? So you are going to have to step back, not be too close, and be able to see the feet and what's happening in the upper body. Yeah, upper body is important. I have a two on one. Okay. What am I doing with a two on one? Score six to two. I'm ahead by four points. Yeah. Okay. Am I actively trying to score or am I actively aggressively stalling to let the clock burn? So I'm looking at that two on one. And the two on one you can burn a lot of time. You know, my son, my son was really good at that two on one, you know, but there's a lot of things you can do with a two on one. You pull it you pull it down, pull it sideways, are you are you are you trying to get a, you know, a single leg? Are you trying to yank it up to get a a body lock, et cetera? So so I'm really looking at What are you doing with those two on ones with the hand fights? Are you just going through the motions? Are you are you is the the the wrestler now, I'm gonna look at it, hey, he he earned six points. I'm gonna back off a little bit because those are legit points that he earned. Yeah. He got the takedown, he got the reverse, he the near fall, whatever those points are. So I'm gonna have a tendency to back away a little bit because now the the losing wrestler, his objective now is to get some points on the board because he's losing. Yeah. What's he doing? If if he's not engaged as much and doesn't wanna I'm not gonna pick on ⁓ on this other guy. Yeah, I'm gonna say action, but I'm gonna throttle back a little bit. So like if both people aren't working, you might verbally action control. Yeah. But at some point, if they're both not working in the center, they're both not working. They're dancing bears, they're I'm gonna back off and let them wrestle. And and and I'm not getting involved. No, why get involved? Yeah. Now if the score is the score is, you know, eight eight to seven to eight. Yeah. And that offensive wrestler now all of a sudden started the you know the third period And let's say this at the end of the second period, he you could see that he's dis disengaged or defending. And so so am I gonna make him lose the match? No, I'm not gonna make him lose the match. He's gonna lose the match on his own his own efforts. So but let's say he starts backing up and he's doing a two-on-one, he's not doing anything and he's being aggressive, he's playing the edge of the mountain, looking at the feet, he's backing up, he's backing up, you know, and I'm gonna manage the clock too. Yeah. I'm gonna manage the clock. My responsibility is a lot of stuff we've got to look at. I'm gonna manage the clock, I'm gonna look at it, and I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt. He's earned those eight, but now You know, it was eight one and now it's eight to seven. And and and and now and that's a different match. Yeah, it's a different match. And so the guy all of a sudden, you know, there's there's forty five seconds left of the match. You know, let's say I don't have a stalling, you know, so I'm probably gonna give it a little sooner to give myself an opportunity. So he knows that I'm looking for stalling. I'm gonna ring him up. Yeah. Okay. If he changes nothing and everything stays the same and he's still defensive, as he's coming out of bound, I'm gonna look at the clock and I'm probably gonna stall ⁓ stall it to give it a tie match. Yeah. And let them win it into overtime. ⁓ because you had Two minutes of wrestling and you did nothing to defend yourself. You didn't shoot, you'd have you backed up, you're defensively, you're you're you you're you're not you didn't have a game plan to score. You know, d do you earn that win? No, I'm gonna give you a stolen and you're gonna go into overtime. No. And a lot of times that one wrestler winds up winning. Why could he why couldn't you have done that in in in the third period when you had two minutes? One of my first years of doing college, I was at the Reno tournament and Carrie Colat at the time was coaching Campbell and called one of his wrestlers for backing out is right on the edge and it was before we did the pat push out back out action call. But he backed out and I called him and he turned right to his wrestler and goes, Hey, the time to say in the center was when you're in the center, not over there. Like 'cause his kid did kind of try to move, but like you said, what did you do to get there? And so when coaches always ask, Well, what do you want? Like if you had a two on one, don't let him get the two on one. Yeah. Like if you if you want to score, both wrestlers had this obligation. Let's put you in some scenarios. Okay. You talked about one factor and again, this is nowhere in the rule book or the case book that we reward the aggressor. I know Fred Feeney teaches it a lot. I know it's a it's a philosophy I kinda have, you kinda have, and many higher level, but it's not supported when By definition, yeah. By definition the spirit of the rule, I think, is is part of the nuance of how that's created. When ⁓ do you have a set window where you kind of shut down stall calls minus center to out of bounds. You go center to out of bounds and it's a one point match at the end, you're probably going to ding the person that's backing up and going out of bounds. Right. But at at what point do you kind of go, hey, we've had six and a half minutes or five and a half minutes in high school. I'm not getting involved now. You guys need to solve it. Do you think about that with the time? Absolutely. That's part of the philosophy of managing your mat that I talk about. You you have to think of all those scenarios. You y a twelve one match. Yeah. A twelve one match, the guy stalling, you know, am I am I gonna call offensive stalling? Yeah, I'm gonna probably tell him I may if he just drop brackly s you know directly backs up. Yeah, I'll give a Stalling, you know, okay, one point matches twelve two. It's irrelevant. And a real tight match. Now you gotta pucker up. Now you gotta now you gotta you gotta make a decision, you know? And that's why it's important to manage and have a strategy from the beginning to the end, because Let's say you were aggressive, calling stalling at the beginning, all of a sudden you throttle back. You're inconsistent. It's not fair to the to the wrestlers. Or let's say you don't call it in the first period. And now all of a sudden you want to make up calls. And that's the worst thing you can be possible. That's the worst he can be possible. And coaches. And coaches will pick up that right like so. Absolutely. We'll go ballistic. That we need to yeah, some nuance, but we also need ⁓ to stick to the rules and call it when we see it. I have a tendency to be a little more aggressive towards the end if the match is really, really close in the scenarios that we talked about an eight seven, a ten nine match. And I'm really going to be very vocal. So you know that I'm gonna make that call. ⁓ because what I hate to see, and I see this a lot, even in our California state, I mean all of a sudden a stalling call came out. Where that come from? Yeah. Or you didn't hear the rest. Yeah, where did that come from? Well, I was being vocal and you and you go back and you know, 'cause because we go back and talk to the officials, you know, a lot of times we go back and we do an evaluation. We like to share, especially if it was close, you know, you make the following, you know, you know, improve this for next year, et cetera. And and the referee will say, Well, I was vocal. Well, nobody heard you. Yeah. Be vocal and be visual. Yeah. Center, you know. In freestyle, we have the option to say red action, blue action, and and folks dive on because we consider that as coaching. But you've got to be vocal enough so everybody knows that you are now considering stalling. Yeah. And honestly, that's their pre warning. Yeah. And so, you know, to t to your your question, I I have a tendency to be a little more aggressive on Stalling when it's a close match. When it's not a close match, I'll I'll I'll back up. The wrestler that earned those points, to me, earned them legitimately, has a responsibility also to wrestle, because in the rule book it doesn't say that, hey, because I'm ahead, I I no longer can be stalling. Stalling is is called and and one of the things that that that I believe is when you see Stalling, you should call it. That's what gets us in trouble. Is we think about it a lot of lot of the younger officials that we talked to were doing the evaluation. Yeah, Sergio, I thought he was stalling, but I didn't want to call it. If you think he's stalling, call it. He's probably stalling. I mean, there's time. There are very few exceptions, but you would mention it's a twelve to one match and there's twenty seconds to go. And that guy is just laying on him on the top. What what's one more point gonna like what like it's coaches go ballistic, right? And they're like he's stalling. Yeah, well it's twelve to one. It's it's not Not gonna make a difference, but I'll go even deeper into your thing where okay, hey, are you down by one versus up by one? I I even like to know, are you at a seven point differential or a fourteen point differential? Because when you get an eight point differential, that's more team points. Fourteen, fifteen, that's more. And so at those points, I I kinda hold the line and I and I call it really, really tight. If it's six to two and there's twenty seconds left, yeah, why am I getting involved? And why and so Not not unless a defensive wrestler now is really working hard. But then you think about all of a sudden you got 20 seconds left and you you want to score a lot of points. Yeah, but if he's aggressive, yeah, I'm gonna look at that. The the really hard part, the hardest part is in tiebreakers. Yeah. Yeah, ultimate tiebreakers. Stalling changes. Yeah. I mean you gotta understand changes that if well you would talk if you're throwing out willy nilly stalls or cautions. I do the cautions drive me nuts. That refs like the kid is like. two centimeters. Yeah, the Hannah here, the Hannah's not here. Or I'm like, put your foot on the line and we start. And that's all it took. And I didn't have to caution. But I've literally seen officials caution, caution, caution. And then all of a sudden it's ⁓ like sudden victory. And you gotta caution because he's excited. And the other kid wins the match. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's managing that's managing the match. That's it's just not understanding that big picture. Yeah. So you now in sudden victory, very similar. You're still a warden their aggressor, but If that aggressor already or the defense person already has a stall, you now have to go, is this worthy enough? Because he wins at first point scored. If if they, you know, you gotta and that's hard. I I I know that Fred Feeney wrote an article once that you'll remember very few situations and calls. And he goes, The ones that you remember, I'll almost always bet that they are overtime scrambles or like stuff. And that's totally true. That we are often defined by our our greatest calls and you're only as good as your last call. And also were defined by some of our really bad calls. And so that overtime sequence or yeah, I I'll do a whole thing on tiebreakers and ultimate tiebreaker because then Stalling gets And understanding understanding that, you know, let's say the ultimate tiebreaker, you know, a guy goes down to the ankle. You know, you're gonna stalemate it, you're gonna call Stalling? Like you said, you already have a Stalling call because you you've been aggressive with your Stalling and then all of sudden, you know, you're gonna call the stalemate, you know You know, I had ⁓ I had a match at the at at Areno finals where ⁓ where I had the the number one ranked kid against ⁓ the number two ranked kid, Pennsylvania against a ⁓ I forget his name. ⁓ but anyway, California kid goes down the ultimate tiebreaker and he looks up at me. I stellmated it. Okay. Ultimate tiebreaker. The ultimate tiebreaker. And so then he does it again and boom, I my hand goes up, and as my hand's going up, the buzzard goes off, you know, when I'm moving the one. And now you're going, ⁓ my god. God time was it time or not? So okay, I got an assistant referee. He's gonna help me out because he was paying attention. I go, Hey, do you have time? Did time expire? Sergio, I got into the match and I didn't see it. See that ⁓ my God. So I got the greatest time. No problem. I'm gonna go my table. So I go to my table because you know the the table is an extension of of the match, and so you go up there and I said, Sergio, we did not see it because we got into the match. It was just like ⁓ and so I have now as a referee have to make a decision. Yeah. So in the spirit of sportsmanship. I decided I w took away the stalling call because it expired. And th there was a l ⁓ some more time left. And what happens to the ultimate tiebreaker if the wrestler rides them And I wind I let I let it wind up ⁓ letting them decide instead of me deciding. So that was the best thing to do. So we've talked about some of the nuances, we talked about what they look for, what you don't look for on stalling on neutral. How much do you communicate with the wrestler after you call stalling? Like like Do you actually let them know why they're stalling? You're backing up. Yeah, yeah. I I guess i in the form of com yeah, I I communicate shortly, briefly. Hey, you backed up. I got you for stalling. Stay in the center. So I do communicate quite a bit. I I think ⁓ you see a lot of the officials communicate to the wrestlers, higher level, some form of communication. I I'm a big proponent of that. I think it saves us from going to the table. Correct. What about so sometimes they're they're close calls and w and we don't call stalling. I think you alluded to this earlier. Well, guess what? I'm talking to that guy on the way back to the center, right? Or that girl and letting them know. And and I know that sometimes it's considered coaching, but the reality is I want the right kid to I consider it preventative. I want them to wrestle. I I'm encouraging it and ⁓ letting them know, you know, center contact. And they all mean the same thing. I think that somebody's not working. And our job is if we can fix something, let's fix it at the lowest level and not make that call unless we absolutely have to. But I think the rubal co accommodates for that in this form is that we are supposed to encourage wrestling. Yeah. To make sure somebody is active. So that gives me the flexibility to do that. Is it coaching? I I don't I don't I don't see it as a coaching. I'm just I'm being preventative. I'm telling them what I'm looking for. And I'm not doing it in a in a wide you know, I'm being being discreet as they're coming back to the center and I'm vocalizing that way. So to me I think the the rubal gives me the opportunity to do that. What Any other suggestions you have for officials that want to continue to improve in whether we agree or disagree on whether stalling's the hardest call, like how that they can improve their understanding, recognition and like you already mentioned, sometimes they're thinking it, but they're never afraid to call it. Like anything, tips or tricks that you would you would give to officials to go, this is what we need to do. As an evaluator, you want to see this. I I think what ⁓ what helps is helped me quite a bit is to have an open mind. I think what happens is we get stuck on our on our way of officiating and we don't have an open mind. That's not stalling. I wouldn't call it. Okay, so you wouldn't call it, and I understand that, but go look at higher-level officiating, go look at higher-level matches and look at stall calls or calls that weren't called made s for stalling and and a kid lost a match. So reviewing and looking at at content that's out there helps and having that open mind because what happens is how many officials have you run into that just you know they just don't I'm sorry, I mean I I read I I I don't post I don't ⁓ answer a lot of the posts, but I look at some of the answers. ⁓ no that wasn't Stalling. Like that six second Stalling call. Is that Stalling or not? Yes it is. Yeah. Okay. But philosophically you have to develop your thought process on what's gonna make you call what's gonna make you call Stalling. Now if that's you, keep it. But if it's not learn it, especially the younger officials. The younger officials don't call Stalin because they're either afraid, they don't know how. And and how do they do that? By continuously watch high level matches. Yeah. And get put in position to to to you know, like like for example, I I like the way you used to approach ⁓ a call like like now I've learned hey hey hey Dale, what was your thought process? ⁓ what was your thought process of making that call? And so we do that now, you know, and when I'm evaluating instead of saying, you know, you Dale, you ⁓ you screw that call up. I I ca I you I I have now a a thought process that goes, Hey Dell, what w what were you thinking when you made that call there at the edge of the map? And so I at least get into your mind and understand. And then I say, Hey, would you consider the following? And if you have an open mind, you're probably gonna walk away, you know, and say, you know what, Sergio was full of shit or you know, may maybe ten percent of what he said made sense and maybe if I see that again or observe that again, maybe I I I'm planning something in you that says, Okay, well maybe Sergio has a point. Or if you challenge me and can't defend what I did. Or if you defend then I really have to correct. I r I I'm now soul searching. How can I defend that? And I feel like that's something that Randy Hartman taught me very, very early. He said, Dale, you can ask me any question you want. And and he gave me that phrase. Hey, you don't want to know the call. You want to know why I made made that call. Because then you can extrapolate that to one thousand other scenarios. Correct. And understanding a surgial brain Now, this is kind of why Full Circle has come to fruition as we mentor younger, whether it's a Connor or a Chris going to the state meets and now doing college. These are the questions that we have. And we don't always agree, but number one, officials need to find mentors and people that they respect. Very important. But number two, they also need to know you know, you go on Facebook and you see 50 answers and they're divided. Now you have to if you haven't learned why they called it or why you would call it, how are you gonna know what's the right thing to do to you? You know, you know, Dell, my pet peeve I have with some of these officials that that that that you ask them a question is you're approaching them and asking a question because obvious obviously, you know, I observe something and and all of a sudden you want to defend your call. And and it's rather than just listening to the feedback, you don't have to accept the feedback. But it it's very i it it shows your level of of capability, of intellectual capability and capacity that you're willing to learn as soon as you as soon as I come up, hey Dell ⁓ what was your call and and you want to defend it and make every every excuse in the book to say this is why I made the call shows that you're not willing to at least listen to what somebody else a higher level official or somebody has a little more experience. Why would they give you feedback? Why would they give you feedback? And and and and you know Randy Hartman was good at that. You know he was a good mentor my good mentor. You know, Pat Cadwalder was one of my mentors and and he used to say you know what, Sergio, if you're not willing to listen, why am I willing to put the effort? Obviously you don't want to learn I can give you some feedback, but if you don't want to accept it, what makes you think you're gonna get any better? And so to me, ⁓ you know, the the thing that I would suggest these young officials is to just listen. They don't have to agree. Listen, and if they can get something from that good. If not, well, they go to the next one. Maybe I didn't present it correctly. Maybe I was too aggressive. And and through my years I've gotten better from feedback from some of the officials because I was too aggressive. I was, you know, like, you know, I didn't approach ⁓ correctly. So now I take that that you know, that that Take that here, what was your thought process? And tell instead of telling them, We don't like to hear that, hey, we we made a mistake. But if I walk you through that process and want to help you, because at the end of the day, what do I gain from making you look bad? I've already done all my accolades, I've already wrestled to the highest level. I don't have any any any dog in the fight anymore. I want to make Del Hanover the best official he can be. And if I can help with the little knowledge that I have, then so be it. But I I don't I don't wanna I'm I'm not putting you down. I'm trying to help. And if the young officials get that I like that if they looked at it that way, they become better officials. I I think that's wisdom right there as officials is number one, seek to listen before you seek to defend. And we're alphas. ⁓ if you're on the mat and you're doing high level wrestling, you're an alpha because you need to control the mat and all that. But you will get infinitely better when you rephrase that question from to something about why they thought about. Or I just rephrased it to myself. What was I thinking when I called this? Yeah. And and maybe my gut, because sometimes let's face it, we're making split second decisions. And we thought, our brain thought, but it didn't get into an elaborate process. And I can go, okay. Yeah, no, I nailed that call. That was good. Or hmm, maybe I wasn't as consistent with what I would have called if I had a little more time to think about it or process it. And so I really encourage officials to find mentors and to find people that and honestly, if you're at a high level, you're doing this. You're thinking. And we've been You're interacting with your officials and you don't you're not taking any offense to feedback. I mean we give each other hard times all the time. Period. All the time. You know, if I blow a call, I I'm going to get texts, calls, and crap from local or across the United States. Guarantee it. And and that is develop thick skin and you move on and you go. But you also have to go. Why are they giving me crap? And yeah, like if every official goes, hey, I just want feedback. And then you give them feedback and they just want to argue and you stop. Do you want to stop? You stop giving them feedback. You know, you don't have to like or agree with me. I'm okay with that. You know, and that's a good point. Now how how how do you get better as an official? You you can't stay within your own community because you're only as good as best official there. And if you're you're the best official, you're never going to get better. And and how do you get invited to other tournaments? Well, okay, you you're going to get that opportunity and and you know the door is open. And now you have to perform. Yeah. And the way you perform is to go there, you know, you're quiet, you're observing, you're you're figuring out, you're asking for help, you know, you're taking feedback. And if if if the leadership of that event sees that you're one of those officials that that are willing to run, guess what? You're going to get invited back. Or Or a a coach or somebody else, another official that runs another tournament somewhere else, will say, Hey, that's a good official. Hey, you wanna come to my tournament? And and and then that that that what do you call it, that tree starts growing and you start going and you start meeting other officials and and and and you're willing to learn. But as soon as you as soon as you think you're the best official out there, guess what? You don't get invited. Because because being an official, I I get out of it. And the officiating is nice, but the social aspect afterwards. The the the camaraderie that we developed among the brotherhood of officiating is awesome. Yeah. I mean I I'm going to I'm going to Puerto Rico on Tuesday. And guess where I'm staying? I'm staying at a friend's house on the beach. She says, Sergio, I've had this beach house. I've invited you for years, you won't come. So I this year I didn't go to Fargo. I'm going to my friend's house and I'm hanging out there for ten days at his beach house because I met him through wrestling. Yeah. And you develop that relationship throughout the State California. Now you I have a place I go to Japan, I can go to Mexico, I can go wherever. And I stay at friends' house. And that's the camaraderie we developed among officiating. Yeah. And I think that will carry over to life. You know, that's how we we keep marriages. That's how we do Yeah, family. That's how we have great careers. So if you're a snagger puss, if you're mean, if you're if you think you're always right, do you think people want to be around you? Absolutely not. All right. Well, Sergio, thank you so much. Thank you guys for joining us. Yeah, thank you. comment, subscribe down below. ⁓ if you have feedback or ideas for suggestions, maybe have questions for Sergio or myself, were we off base? Were we out of line? Or or do you agree? Or do you have some stuff that you would like to see added to this? Our number one goal is simply to the right kid wins. We have great experience. And make better officials. And we just keep improving along the way. So thank you for joining us. Until next time, we'll see you. Bye. Bye.