Cindy: I think people aren't asking about it, but in the back of their mind, they're wondering, like, wait a second, do I do I need you? or can AI do this? Welcome back to the podcast. I'm your host, Cindy Wagman, and today we are talking about AI, but really specifically AI in your consulting business, in your fractional business. Because I don't know about all of you, but first of all, I have to say I love using AI for very for certain things. And I'm hearing from people that clients are asking, are you using AI? why are you so expensive if you're using AI? Should I be paying less? or not comfortable with thing with certain parts of AI, which very fair. So we're getting into it today with our guest Valerie. so Valerie, let's kick things off. Just introduce yourself and tell us what you do. Great, thank you. so I'm Valerie Ehrlich and I am a consultant who primarily serves nonprofits and foundations. My background is in learning and evaluation and training and design. And so that's the lens that I bring, but also leadership and leadership development. So thinking about how do we navigate AI, how do we have those tough conversations, and what are the opportunities that it offers throughout the entire consulting. Process. Amazing. So before we dive into like our use as consultants, what are you seeing from the sector, like from nonprofits themselves and foundations in terms of comfort level questions that they're asking? Like there's some really important questions we should be asking. So what's the what's the temperature out there right now on AI? Yeah, great question. the temperature is Swirling around. I feel like there's not a a unique temperature. There's a lot of hot pockets and cold pockets. and those exist across organizations, but also then within organizations, there are hot and cold pockets. And so it is a tricky, it's tricky waters to navigate in terms of the temperature right now. I will say over the past year, I have seen more and more questions starting to emerge, and they come from top-down and bottom-up. So in a number of instances, there are organizations deciding, like, okay, we do need to kind of figure this out. What should we do? so they're they're warming to it, but then there's a ton of uncertainty about okay, but what does this actually look like for us? And then From the bottom up, there are usually small teams, maybe one or two people or a pocket in an organization that's like, hey, we've been wanting to do this. Our organization has said no, but I think we might be getting somewhere. Like, what do we what do we do now? How how are we gonna both influence but also do this right? So it's a lot of a little, a lot of hot spots. Yeah, yeah. And I imagine some like shadow systems where like artificial policy is X, but we're doing a bit of Y and just not talking about it. Yeah, or even, you know, we're not doing this, but we accidentally have AI features enabled, you know, that we didn't know about. and so there's a lack of clarity around where is this actually showing up, which I think is a little bit different from, you know, a year ago, because it's being so seamlessly integrated that. people aren't realizing that they've turned on an AI feature and then what the risk of that is. Yeah. Like even now I do with my kids sometimes their homework and they have to do research. And just a Google search now is an AI search, first and foremost. and so there's like it's like an accidental AI. obviously not accidental by Google, but just understanding and and having the lens to even acknowledge. not acknowledge but like identify that that's yeah a use of AI that you may or may not have policy around. Yeah. so as consultants, like most of the fractionals that I work with and I personally in my business, I use AI a ton. Mm-hmm. I record calls. I recommend my consult the consultants in my network record calls. and like we I teach them how to create custom bots and stuff like that to either do work for their business or work for their clients appropriately. So we're we're using AI to varying degrees, similar to what you see in nonprofits, but we're within the consulting space, which adds another layer of complexity. So, how should we be thinking about this dovetail of organizational policy, our policies, and how and look let's just start with that. How do we marry the two? Yeah. So that's one of the reasons that I have been tinkering around and trying to develop the the tool that I think I mentioned to you because I was seeing more and more consultants in this sort of quandary of like I want to use this. I'm not sure how, when to say it. is it okay? And then now organizations are putting into their policies or contracts like what you can and cannot do. And that is going to influence, you know, your pricing and your scope as a consultant, too. And so ultimately I think it boils down to as a consultant, do you want to be more proactive or reactive with AI? And how do you want to position yourself? in terms of you know what you need for you and you want to be able to advocate for it, which could be perfect and exactly what you want to do, but you also might see yourself as a bit more of a catalyst or an educator. You know, you're very open to leading on this and educating your clients at the same time. I think either of those paths make sense. But what I don't want to see consultants is is ha being on the back foot and having to answer a lot of questions that they don't feel equipped to answer because those questions are coming. Yes. And how like can you give us an example of some of those questions that might c obviously and before we hit record we even acknowledge like AI is changing so fast. I think I heard Nathan Chappelle speak at a conference and he said like before I'm gonna get the numbers wrong, but this is illustrative, not accurate. n like knowledge was doubling every X number like say every twelve years and now it's doubling every twelve minutes or something like that. Like it's crazy. Crazy. So all of this is with a caveat of like, this might be very different by the time this airs or by the time you're listening. But generally speaking, what are some of those questions that that are coming up now or things that we should be prepared to navigate? Yeah. Yeah. So and I want to take that moment to say AI is changing. And so this might be different, but for so many consultants, the values and the practices that have put us in this position, those things are not changing. And I feel like we're getting, you know, we can kind of get overwhelmed and unmoored by everything that's happening within AI. And so I always tell people, like, well, go back to what's most important and what is it that you actually do in your work. So some of the questions that I've experienced are what happens to our data? How are you protecting our data? What are you actually gonna do with this? what's your tool that you use and what are its security permissions? would you be willing to use our tool? that's been a new one that's come in. It's like we want our we want people to use this tool. And that can be really tricky if that's not your tool of choice, because you've probably built lots of workflows and things like that. so there's a lot around around data and data security. And data safety and just knowing like, is their information that they're sharing with you going to be safe? That's a big one. The other that I think is a unspoken question that consultants want to be ready to speak to is figuring out where you want to have this conversation, what trust you've already built, and is that trust going to be reinforced or damaged through the conversation. because I think a lot of people are thinking, like, wait, does that mean that the report that you give me is AI generated? Like, what's your actual process? And so I've tried to pull a few examples and say, like, you know, if this is a the sequence of the project that we've got mapped out, these are the ways that I use AI in these earlier stages. You know, you will never receive a deliverable that is AI generated. I will always have, you know, gone through it. But like to be proactive on that, because I think people aren't asking about it, but in the back of their mind, they're wondering, like, wait a second, do I do I need you? or can AI do this? Yeah, I think that documentation, because sometimes we're working so fast and we're just like, I we don't even slow down to think about. really making it clear. yeah. So I think that I think that's great.
Cindy Wagman: Real quick. If you're listening and you're wondering, this all sounds great, but how do I actually leave my job and become a fractional? You're gonna want to join me for an intimate conversation where I'm gonna share exactly how you can replace your nonprofit salary with just three clients a year. Just sign up at nonprofitfractionals.com/slash convo. I'll see you there.
Cindy: I'd love to even take a few minutes and talk about ways that we should be thinking about because like obviously there's this conversation out there of like AI is coming for all of our jobs. even as consultants. What would what do you I hate the word recommend because it's always it depends, but you know, how should we be thinking about incorporating AI or not, or like leveraging this to increase the value that we bring to organizations rather than just think about like, okay, is it me or is it AI? Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's lots of different ways to think about it. and one of the things that we can do is think about is this client facing work or is this like non-client like my back end sort of office work and really getting clear on like the the problem you're trying to solve and the value proposition. So you know if you know I don't want to use AI to generate reports or you know emails or stuff like that, then don't don't use it for that. and look at like take a step back and say where are my actual pain points in my process? Am I really You know, I always I have a bottleneck here where I just never get to do this one thing. Like, okay, there's probably a way that AI could help with that. I know for me in my practice, a lot of times I'll have an initial conversation with someone, and then maybe a month or two later there's another conversation, or like, and so I keep a little project space and I'm able to put anything related to that project. in there so I have sort of like a a second brain and I'm able to go back to hey this person is following back up on this thing. What did we say? Where are we now? What should I ask? And like that's not facing client facing for them. but it's it's augmenting for me. It's helping me remember everything and be as prepared as I can be for the next conversation. and so I think that's that's one way the other thing, I don't know if this really like helps put people at ease, but I do keep trying to, I guess, depersonalize AI a little bit. So when we hear like AI is coming for our jobs and stuff, I think, yes, it might be, and we're humans in this and humans are behind AI. So like AI isn't this you know, autonomous. being yet I and is probably far, far off from that. but another thing I've tried to do is say, like, okay, if what's really important to me, and I do think that what is really important to most consultants is the relational side of the work, like the uniquely human thing that we bring, then what are the points in my day or my week that get in the way of my relational work? And how could I potentially use this To help me either give me more time for my relational work or make my relational work even better by helping me, you know, be more prepared for meetings. Or for me, like I love a note taker because notes take me out of a meeting. So for some people, notes are their thing that keeps them glued in. Not for me. I will get lost and go down a mental rabbit hole and lose a train of thought. And so for me, like Turning on a note taker is like a relief. And I feel like, now I can like actually look at the camera and be so present. And so in that way it's it's supporting my relational work. that's how I frame it. So yeah. And I also find that part of the like it's a tool, right? And what I mean is like with fractionals, your value out Add is your experience. Like it's how you use the tools, right? If you put my background's in fundraising, so we'll say, like, if you put an executive director who has never learned about fundraising into a chat GPT that says, write a fundraising letter for me, the output is based on the quality of the input, which is going to be garbage. Whereas if I have experience and I understand how to use AI well, then I can actually generate something that's really organizationally specific, fundraising best practices, like that the output is significantly different depending on how you're who's using it and how. And I think that that also gets gets lost in the conversation sometimes. Like at this point where we are with AI, it's not just gonna churn out. good for your work. Yeah. No. It will churn out lots of stuff. But if it's whether or not it's good. And I I think that's the more people that I see who are sort of wading into it and and sort of are like, okay, well I guess I need to figure this out. Let me start playing around very quickly you realize like what it is and isn't useful for and like how what you ask it. relates to what it produces. And so it it helps, I think, put some of those fears at ease versus like seeing the magic of what gets produced at the push of a button. Yeah. Okay. I want to talk about like like the mindfield of like things that you we absolutely should not be doing with our clients in AI. like are there things that you've seen people do where you're like, whoa, so for example not getting permission to record a call or like zoom now and with most ai note takers there is like a pop-up this this calls being recorded but like okay i'm I'm a bit of a nerd so I have a little ai wearable that records things yeah that I will not bring into conversations with other people without letting them know that they are being recorded. So, because that's discreet and it's not clear. So I know that that's like a no-no. You don't record people without their permission, even if you legally can, like you probably don't want to. what else? What are some sort of things that we should absolutely avoid? Yeah. And to that point on recording, I do want people to realize though that like you said, there are discrete wearables, there are programs that don't need to join meetings that can still record. And so I think we should all assume that that, you know, not that we're being recorded, but not not assume that just because something's not there, that it's not potentially being captured somewhere by some device. certainly I tell All consultants, everybody that I know, like buy buy one of the programs. Like don't use the free one. If it's free, you are the product. So just pick one. you know, we can have lots of conversations about which one to pick, but pick one and and pay the twenty dollars or thirty dollars a month so that you are at least getting some more protection. I also tell everybody to read the terms of service, which I feel like we've been conditioned. particularly through the app store and stuff to just accept so that we can get the thing. Like just yes, I agree. I agree. Give me whatever I need to do what I'm trying to do. And with the terms of service on AI products, that's where those privacy policies and things are changing. So even if you take the terms of service and put them in an AI project space and then when they put a new one out, copy it and put it back in there and say, what's different? Like just try to stay up on that because some of the big AI companies have made some changes that are subtle but really profound that would influence privacy and that's another thing I would say too is always check your settings and and make a habit of checking your settings monthly. what's changed, what might be in there, what am I agreeing to give? I never put personally identifiable information like for fundraising in particular, you know That level of data, unless I really understand the system. I don't work with that type of data, so I don't have to worry about that. A number of systems now are being built, you know, to handle that data specifically. so you know, if you feel confident in that, then you know, you can go down that path. But but always think about the data that's being used and what you're putting it into and Really make sure that you understand within whatever level you've purchased what that actually means happens to that data. So good. I heard someone say this one time and it's just sort of like a quick summary of w what you were saying, which is like, if you're not paying for it, you're paying for it in privacy, like or in their use of your data. and also like just going back to the The wearable that I have, like the company was just bought my meta. So now I'm like which one is it that you have? Called Limitless, I think. It's like a little abundant. Okay. So now I'm just like, what because that's not necessarily where I want my data going. So pain again, like the speed of change in this space is so rapid that and and changing, like I'm so glad. I usually Don't I kind of skim through emails, but I'm so glad I looked at the one where they're like, hey, our company was bought by Meta. Like, damn, now I have to rethink this. So yeah, it's it's just wild. Yeah. all right, Valerie, this is super helpful and I think such a critical conversation. I'll also just wrap up by saying, like, I didn't get I've said this on another podcast before, but like. When I started tinkering with AI, I was like, this is garbage. Like, what is everyone talking about? Until I figured out how to train it properly. And then I I now I'm like a a big fan with boundaries. and I also want to acknowledge there's a lot of things we didn't have a chance to talk about. because this is such a big conversation. around like the environment and other ethics and I mean we just tapped on this idea of like meta having our data, but like these are all really important conversations. where can our listeners be in touch with you and find you online? Yeah, so LinkedIn is great. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I also have a sub stack where I'm trying to wade into these issues a little bit more deeply. around those sorts of questions. And I think the last thing I would leave your listeners with is there's a difference between like skepticism and resistance and like engaged skepticism. And I've found that the best like users who are thinking really smartly about it are like the engaged skeptics. So it's possible to use AI and not necessarily be pro-AI, which I don't think are like the media doesn't really leave space for Most of the people that I talk to, that's kind of what they're doing. Yeah. It's not like an either or. I think that's so great. I also just personally want to recommend I've heard this I'm not gonna remember his last name, but you might know who this is. His name's Tristan. Tristan. he he's I've heard him on a few podcasts about ethics and AI, and talking about he he did a lot of like alarm sounding around social media a number of years ago, and he's just talking a lot about looking at some of the boundaries, he's not saying all or nothing. He says, like we have to just have some controls and checks and balances. So I I really appreciate you pointing that out. Like it's not A B it or A or B. It's like figuring out how do we be responsible with this 'cause coming. So Yeah. yeah. I highly recommend I will see if I can find and put it in the show notes. because he is The they have like a whole center on respon like ethical AI or something like that that's gives a lot of details around some of the guidelines we should be looking at or some of these considerations. So yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for being part of this conversation. Thank you.
Cindy Wagman: Real quick. If you're listening and you're wondering, this all sounds great, but how do I actually leave my job and become a fractional? You're gonna want to join me for an intimate conversation where I'm gonna share exactly how you can replace your nonprofit salary with just three clients a year. Just sign up at nonprofitfractionals.com/slash convo. I'll see you there.
Cindy: I'd love to even take a few minutes and talk about ways that we should be thinking about because like obviously there's this conversation out there of like AI is coming for all of our jobs. even as consultants. What would what do you I hate the word recommend because it's always it depends, but you know, how should we be thinking about incorporating AI or not, or like leveraging this to increase the value that we bring to organizations rather than just think about like, okay, is it me or is it AI? Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's lots of different ways to think about it. and one of the things that we can do is think about is this client facing work or is this like non-client like my back end sort of office work and really getting clear on like the the problem you're trying to solve and the value proposition. So you know if you know I don't want to use AI to generate reports or you know emails or stuff like that, then don't don't use it for that. and look at like take a step back and say where are my actual pain points in my process? Am I really You know, I always I have a bottleneck here where I just never get to do this one thing. Like, okay, there's probably a way that AI could help with that. I know for me in my practice, a lot of times I'll have an initial conversation with someone, and then maybe a month or two later there's another conversation, or like, and so I keep a little project space and I'm able to put anything related to that project. in there so I have sort of like a a second brain and I'm able to go back to hey this person is following back up on this thing. What did we say? Where are we now? What should I ask? And like that's not facing client facing for them. but it's it's augmenting for me. It's helping me remember everything and be as prepared as I can be for the next conversation. and so I think that's that's one way the other thing, I don't know if this really like helps put people at ease, but I do keep trying to, I guess, depersonalize AI a little bit. So when we hear like AI is coming for our jobs and stuff, I think, yes, it might be, and we're humans in this and humans are behind AI. So like AI isn't this you know, autonomous. being yet I and is probably far, far off from that. but another thing I've tried to do is say, like, okay, if what's really important to me, and I do think that what is really important to most consultants is the relational side of the work, like the uniquely human thing that we bring, then what are the points in my day or my week that get in the way of my relational work? And how could I potentially use this To help me either give me more time for my relational work or make my relational work even better by helping me, you know, be more prepared for meetings. Or for me, like I love a note taker because notes take me out of a meeting. So for some people, notes are their thing that keeps them glued in. Not for me. I will get lost and go down a mental rabbit hole and lose a train of thought. And so for me, like Turning on a note taker is like a relief. And I feel like, now I can like actually look at the camera and be so present. And so in that way it's it's supporting my relational work. that's how I frame it. So yeah. And I also find that part of the like it's a tool, right? And what I mean is like with fractionals, your value out Add is your experience. Like it's how you use the tools, right? If you put my background's in fundraising, so we'll say, like, if you put an executive director who has never learned about fundraising into a chat GPT that says, write a fundraising letter for me, the output is based on the quality of the input, which is going to be garbage. Whereas if I have experience and I understand how to use AI well, then I can actually generate something that's really organizationally specific, fundraising best practices, like that the output is significantly different depending on how you're who's using it and how. And I think that that also gets gets lost in the conversation sometimes. Like at this point where we are with AI, it's not just gonna churn out. good for your work. Yeah. No. It will churn out lots of stuff. But if it's whether or not it's good. And I I think that's the more people that I see who are sort of wading into it and and sort of are like, okay, well I guess I need to figure this out. Let me start playing around very quickly you realize like what it is and isn't useful for and like how what you ask it. relates to what it produces. And so it it helps, I think, put some of those fears at ease versus like seeing the magic of what gets produced at the push of a button. Yeah. Okay. I want to talk about like like the mindfield of like things that you we absolutely should not be doing with our clients in AI. like are there things that you've seen people do where you're like, whoa, so for example not getting permission to record a call or like zoom now and with most ai note takers there is like a pop-up this this calls being recorded but like okay i'm I'm a bit of a nerd so I have a little ai wearable that records things yeah that I will not bring into conversations with other people without letting them know that they are being recorded. So, because that's discreet and it's not clear. So I know that that's like a no-no. You don't record people without their permission, even if you legally can, like you probably don't want to. what else? What are some sort of things that we should absolutely avoid? Yeah. And to that point on recording, I do want people to realize though that like you said, there are discrete wearables, there are programs that don't need to join meetings that can still record. And so I think we should all assume that that, you know, not that we're being recorded, but not not assume that just because something's not there, that it's not potentially being captured somewhere by some device. certainly I tell All consultants, everybody that I know, like buy buy one of the programs. Like don't use the free one. If it's free, you are the product. So just pick one. you know, we can have lots of conversations about which one to pick, but pick one and and pay the twenty dollars or thirty dollars a month so that you are at least getting some more protection. I also tell everybody to read the terms of service, which I feel like we've been conditioned. particularly through the app store and stuff to just accept so that we can get the thing. Like just yes, I agree. I agree. Give me whatever I need to do what I'm trying to do. And with the terms of service on AI products, that's where those privacy policies and things are changing. So even if you take the terms of service and put them in an AI project space and then when they put a new one out, copy it and put it back in there and say, what's different? Like just try to stay up on that because some of the big AI companies have made some changes that are subtle but really profound that would influence privacy and that's another thing I would say too is always check your settings and and make a habit of checking your settings monthly. what's changed, what might be in there, what am I agreeing to give? I never put personally identifiable information like for fundraising in particular, you know That level of data, unless I really understand the system. I don't work with that type of data, so I don't have to worry about that. A number of systems now are being built, you know, to handle that data specifically. so you know, if you feel confident in that, then you know, you can go down that path. But but always think about the data that's being used and what you're putting it into and Really make sure that you understand within whatever level you've purchased what that actually means happens to that data. So good. I heard someone say this one time and it's just sort of like a quick summary of w what you were saying, which is like, if you're not paying for it, you're paying for it in privacy, like or in their use of your data. and also like just going back to the The wearable that I have, like the company was just bought my meta. So now I'm like which one is it that you have? Called Limitless, I think. It's like a little abundant. Okay. So now I'm just like, what because that's not necessarily where I want my data going. So pain again, like the speed of change in this space is so rapid that and and changing, like I'm so glad. I usually Don't I kind of skim through emails, but I'm so glad I looked at the one where they're like, hey, our company was bought by Meta. Like, damn, now I have to rethink this. So yeah, it's it's just wild. Yeah. all right, Valerie, this is super helpful and I think such a critical conversation. I'll also just wrap up by saying, like, I didn't get I've said this on another podcast before, but like. When I started tinkering with AI, I was like, this is garbage. Like, what is everyone talking about? Until I figured out how to train it properly. And then I I now I'm like a a big fan with boundaries. and I also want to acknowledge there's a lot of things we didn't have a chance to talk about. because this is such a big conversation. around like the environment and other ethics and I mean we just tapped on this idea of like meta having our data, but like these are all really important conversations. where can our listeners be in touch with you and find you online? Yeah, so LinkedIn is great. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I also have a sub stack where I'm trying to wade into these issues a little bit more deeply. around those sorts of questions. And I think the last thing I would leave your listeners with is there's a difference between like skepticism and resistance and like engaged skepticism. And I've found that the best like users who are thinking really smartly about it are like the engaged skeptics. So it's possible to use AI and not necessarily be pro-AI, which I don't think are like the media doesn't really leave space for Most of the people that I talk to, that's kind of what they're doing. Yeah. It's not like an either or. I think that's so great. I also just personally want to recommend I've heard this I'm not gonna remember his last name, but you might know who this is. His name's Tristan. Tristan. he he's I've heard him on a few podcasts about ethics and AI, and talking about he he did a lot of like alarm sounding around social media a number of years ago, and he's just talking a lot about looking at some of the boundaries, he's not saying all or nothing. He says, like we have to just have some controls and checks and balances. So I I really appreciate you pointing that out. Like it's not A B it or A or B. It's like figuring out how do we be responsible with this 'cause coming. So Yeah. yeah. I highly recommend I will see if I can find and put it in the show notes. because he is The they have like a whole center on respon like ethical AI or something like that that's gives a lot of details around some of the guidelines we should be looking at or some of these considerations. So yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for being part of this conversation. Thank you.
