Interview - Dr Patrick Jones - Mindfulness Based Wellbeing

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Welcome to Forrest.Chat,
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where we talk about individual endeavor in Western Australia, what it takes, what it means, and how you do it.
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I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, And in this episode, we're talking with Dr.
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Patrick Jones about mindfulness-based wellbeing.
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Dr.
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Patrick Jones has been in this mindfulness-based wellbeing industry for over 20 years.
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Welcome to Forrest.Chat,
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Dr.
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Patrick Jones Great.
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Thanks, Paul.
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Yep, good to be here Thanks for being on Forrest.Chat,
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Patrick.
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Great to have you here Patrick, mindfulness-based wellbeing.
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They're terms that are thrown around quite a lot.
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Can you give us an better understanding of what that actually means? Yeah, sure.
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So I like to make it, uh, simple by separating them out into two versions.
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One I might call event-based wellbeing, and the other I would call inner wellbeing.
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So today we're-- when we look at mindfulness-based wellbeing, we're talking more about that inner wellbeing place.
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So, when I talk about e-event-based wellbeing, it's, it's the classical sort of way that psychology, relates to the concepts of wellbeing and quality of life.
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and they say that it's, you know, it's pretty much it's made up of, h-how we think about the world in terms of, you know, more positive, constructive thinking, what, feelings we have about that, what behaviors we then execute to be able to, make sure we have good quality of life, and then the, the presence of life conditions that support us having that experience of, of wellbeing.
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So basically it's thoughts, feelings, behaviors, combined with life conditions.
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So that's typically what I would say psychology tries to focus on: improving your thoughts, enabling people to have, you know, better feelings and more, more adaptive or productive behaviors, and more successful life conditions.
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You know, that's sort of a familiar, recognizable territory for psychology.
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So, you know, that's the quality of life research, which has been where my doctoral work, was, initially.
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and then they also then call that subjective wellbeing, you know, the, the subject or the person that's experiencing the wellbeing in relationship to those life conditions.
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So that's the first lot.
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We're gonna put that under the title or category of event-based wellbeing.
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You know, it's in connection to events.
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Mindfulness wellbeing is more in that inner wellbeing country or territory, and that's basically saying the experience of wellbeing when everything else, has gone to pot.
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When everything else has fallen over, can I experience a wellbeing that does not come from those life conditions? it comes from an experience of wellbeing within myself.
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So that makes it a very robust type of wellbeing because life does, as the Buddhists would say, you know, one of the foundational principles in Buddhism would be that, all phenomena, all things in life, one of their qualities are that they keep changing.
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You know, they, they can-cannot not.
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They're always either going up or down.
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And so wellbeing that can be sourced from within, inner wellbeing, is a much more robust place to be able to generate our wellbeing.
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So that's why, uh, I look more now at mindfulness-based wellbeing or the inner wellbeing place, if those two distinctions help So when we talk about that mindfulness-based wellbeing and the, and how it is a very strong place for a person to, to come from, would a Yeah see in their life when that is working really well? Ah, a nice question.
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So, uh, because they can see anything.
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It c-- their life can be working really well or terribly, and, that's independent of their experience of wellbeing.
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I had a great opportunity to work once with a share trader.
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And he was actually teaching, people how to trade.
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And what we worked on was managing the psychological or emotional response when a trade's going really badly, and the stock is dropping, and you don't wanna make an emotional decision, you wanna make a, data-driven decision.
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So in that case, life could be looking in any direction, it could be your shares in life, or your stock is going up, or your stock is going down, and you wanna be able to hold on to the experience of still feeling okay inside when you're watching this happen.
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So that's the inner state.
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But of course, ideally, we want our life to be supportive and our life conditions to be working well.
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So if someone is managing their mental state well, it makes them more skillful in their life conditions, so you'd want them to be seeing a life that typically works better, than someone that's not managing their mental state.
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However, even if we're, are super good at all this, we're not fully in control of what life does.
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So while we might have put in all the right, parts to make it work, it still may not.
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And this is where the inner wellbeing obviously serves us because we can still feel okay while we're trying to correct something So it's like an understanding that you've got this.
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your life isn't being driven by those things that are on the outside.
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Is that a fair way to, to look at it? It, it is.
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Uh, where it gets confusing for some people is, well, if I've got this, at least i-internally, then what's the point of doing, uh, anything with my life if, I feel good no matter whether life is good or bad? It's, it's quite a good question really because at one level that's true.
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you experience a sense of peacefulness w-within yourself and so then w- at one level, what does it really matter whether things are going badly or well? Well, funnily enough, I guess the shift is that there is a lot more freedom or independence from how life is going, but things typically are easier or more functional when life is working.
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And certainly, it also means that in terms of contributing to others, when our life is working or we have the relevant skill sets for managing life conditions, it enables us to make a bigger or better difference to, to people, to others.
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So in some ways, uh, the motivation for making our life functional and those life conditions working well changes a little bit from I need it to be okay to it helps life run well and it enables me to, to make a bigger difference And that difference, I can see you can make a, good difference when you're in a good place.
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Is that true as well? Yeah.
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Yeah, for sure.
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you mentioned, a little bit about there.
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Now, I don't know the ins and, ins and outs of Buddhism.
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I actually was brought up as a, as a Christian, and I really haven't looked at other types of religions myself Yeah What's the impact of a religious perspective on your ability to have strong mindfulness and wellbeing? I also, have, ha-had a little bit of exposure to the different, spiritual or religious traditions in my own training.
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I, initially did an arts degree in psychology, and then I moved and did a Bachelor of Theology degree.
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Then I moved back into psychology with a, a master's and a PhD.
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And along the way, I guess I examined the different methods that come from the different traditions that can help us.
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And psychology, what it primarily does, as I said, it w-works on those thoughts, feelings, sensations level and trying to change them, uh, so that your life works better, the conditions work better.
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But typically, the spiritual traditions, from which mindfulness comes from, uh, in more recent times, you know, has been more clinically applied in psychology, but it does have a, a Buddhist origin.
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But the common factor with all these re-religious or spiritual approaches is that they focus more on, methods that try and help people access that inner state.
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while psychology more works on, the mind, and life conditions, the, the spiritual and religious traditions tend to focus on giving people a spiritual experience, you could say, or an experience of happiness, that comes from within So, yeah, that's typically the difference between the two of them.
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I always like to take more of a secular approach, but I would see that if, something is true in any religion then we should be able to explain it with normal language.
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So, what I do like about the, the Buddhist approach, and the Dalai Lama himself says this, that it's, not so much a religion, but as a philosophy, it's a way of thinking.
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And so Buddhism's foundation really is what they call the Four Noble Truths, which essentially is that life, contains, suffering or, the aspects of life that we engage with, don't have the capacity to, keep us happy all the time.
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Why? Because they're always changing, as I mentioned earlier.
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So hence life, either is unsatisfactory in that it, you have to keep doing stuff to keep it satisfying you because it's always changing.
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That's, that's basically the first noble truth.
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The, the second, uh, noble truth those four is that, the cause of that, suffering that people have is that they cling onto things too much, that they must have this thing, or they have this aversion to thing, other things too much.
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"I must not have that thing happen to me."
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And the third one they say that makes up the cause of that suffering is a type of ignorance that, "If I get those things right, I'll be happy."
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And at what level they're correct for a moment, but then those things keep changing.
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So in a way it's, a lack of understanding about those things which is why they say that, you know, the cause of suffering is, too much attachment and too much aversion and, and ignorance.
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that th-this will do the job.
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And then basically the third noble truth is that, you know, there is a way out of suffering.
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and it's essentially non-attachment.
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It's to be able to let go that, clinging, if you like, and start to look at maybe where the real source of it might come from, which is, you know, ultimately the, the greatest compliment.
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Well, it actually comes from within me.
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It's me.
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it's not those things out there.
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And then the fourth noble truth is what they call the eightfold path, which is eight different methods or, you know, techniques or things you should be doing in your life to make sure that, your life goes well and you don't suffer.
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Of one of those eight, mindfulness is, is one of them.
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you know, the right concentration, you know, knowing how to concentrate and, and knowing how to, you know, live ethically, in a balanced way, all that kind of stuff.
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Sort of like life skills, if you like.
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So, it's a kind of a methodology all in itself, but what its primary insight is that- There is an experience of wellbeing, that you can have within you beyond everything, underneath everything, and that it tries to help people get that.
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Which a lovely thing to, to be able to, to know that potentially that's possible for me when things, especially when life's not going great, and that there might be methods that might be able to help me to, to, to do that what about from the perspective of, your working in this field? how do you approach that as a field of research? certainly in the mindfulness, traditions, they, they would say that a critical component is that the, person teaching it is a, is a practitioner themselves.
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While i- in, in psychology, y- y- you know, you can do cognitive behavioral therapy, and you, you should be able to understand it obviously, and you should be able to...
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But ultimately you could be, an AI agent, that's, Got a great handle on the techniques and knows how to, you know, do an ap-appropriate Q&A for, for any question that comes up because you've got the, the background research and the background to answer any question.
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Mindfulness s-pivots a little differently there, and it says y-your own experiences are critical part of that because you are meant to...
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You know, Bandura, there's a fellow, talks about social learning theory, that, part of the learning is through the modeling, through the, how the person is demonstrating it themselves and experiencing it themselves.
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So I would see first that, um, personally to be a practitioner is, is the first part.
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and then usually in terms of trying to relay that information, this first step always is to try and help people see the difference between event-based wellbeing and, and inner wellbeing.
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And when they can see that, then they develop some interest to go, "Well, how do I find that inner wellbeing?" Because that one sounds, you know, a bit more constant.
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So usually that's the first starting point It's pretty natural that people will want the, the most robust and resilient thing absolutely.
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Yeah.
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One thing I guess I can say that's, a, a little bit of a shift for people, and it's probably good to introduce this early, is, this notion of what they call in the spiritual traditions, a awakening.
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And, it's in the line of typically what people might refer also to as enlightenment, and it's very different from, trying to be a good person, living a good life, trying to be reasonable, trying to be logical, trying to upskill, basically trying to run your life well.
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The notion that this one brings is that there is another experience of yourself where that typical sense of me, you have what I call a natural experience really, but, they might call it a spiritual experience, a lot of people, where that sense of self just temporarily disappears.
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And, people might experience that in suddenly if they massive hike up a mountain or whatever else and then they see the view and they just have this aha moment, and everything just falls away and they're just like, "Oh my goodness."
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And for a moment, life is just...
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everything is still and silent and very happy, a blissful moment.
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So that might be those aha moments, and we might even call those awakening moments or e- even enlightenment moments.
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And they, are a glimpse into what happens when that normal sense of me just temporarily just gets interrupted or falls away.
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And at that moment, there are no problems.
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It's just all good.
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So the mindfulness work is to help people, one, to see that that's possible for them, and then two, to walk the steps to, achieve those experiences increasingly.
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And then to use normal psychology terms to increase those experiences in terms of frequency of them, duration of them, for how long they happen, and then intensity, how deeply they happen until that eventually they happen more and more until they cross over to the point to where then now that becomes more of where they come from than the old me.
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And then the final step is that stabilization when, well, that's actually now just my normal way of experiencing myself and the world.
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And, uh, that's the f- the kinda you could say the f- the final outcome of, of mindfulness is, is that experience and living that way.
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you mentioned there you, you have a course, and that's all about helping people get through that process.
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Is that Yeah, pre- pretty much.
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Funnily enough, uh, my curiosity and interest started, um, when I first started my doctorate some time ago, and I had this weird question in my head, which was, how can there be a fella, you know, on the other side of the world in the Caribbean on his superyacht trying to remember whether or not he took his Prozac that day, you know, or, or his me- his meds to manage his anxiety.
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And yet on the other side of the world, there might be like a Tibetan monk, sitting in the snow in bliss.
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And it's like how...
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Which one-- Clearly the first one, you know, that you would say that's quality of life, right? It's got all of those bits in place and the, the monk sitting in freezing snow, clearly not quality of life condition.
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o- one's managing his anxiety and the other one's managing his bliss.
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And it was like, h- how do I put those two together in my head? And, uh, it really, really became a, a, a curiosity for me.
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And so that's what kind of drove me to look at, you know, what are the predictors of quality of life and, and, and how does it work? And, and increasingly over time, you know, the research kept coming back to, well, you know, there's these major life conditions that you've got to have right.
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You know, your relationships, your work, your money, your health, your leisure, you know, you've got to have those in balance.
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But increasingly, the research kept not being able to find that they captured all of the predictors of what made people happy.
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In fact, some of them even said like, "Even we put all those together, they only like, you know, come up with like five percent predictor value."
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You know, others like, you know, up to maybe 10, So, you know, I've rounded them up to say 20%.
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And then well look, where's the other 80%? And over time, the research shifted from quality of life to, to subjective wellbeing because it's like, ah, the other 80% is what your mind does with those life conditions.
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In other words, the mother lode was in the mind, not in the life conditions, which is why the Tibetan monk, had the trump card, you know, 'cause he was the one investing in that thing.
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So, you know, that's, that's what sort of drove me to go, "Well, if that's the one, then I wanna I wanna learn more about what that is."
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and that sort of took me down the path of shifting from quality of life focus to that inner wellbeing focus.
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and that's, yeah, that's part of that journey and, and why that's the one that really needs the most focus out of the two of them.
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But they both need to be, in balance to, you know, to have a, a life that works It sounds like it's aligning with the Pareto principle, the 80/20 rule Yeah.
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It is a bit like that society seems to drive us into that 20%.
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Is that because it's more tangible? Uh, pretty much it is those, quick changes that will give, at least the mind will look for, "If I can just m-make that situation better, I'm gonna feel better right now," which is true.
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and I think basically, just to come back to your question, what I, found in terms of the, the program that eventually I, I put together through that doctorate, was a mix of, well, now that we know both are relevant, how do we do it? And, and that the mind is more relevant or has a bigger impact than these life conditions.
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How do we put that together in a program that represents that? And so in the end, I, created what was then called the Mindfulness, Basic Quality of Life and Wellbeing Program, which then simply became Clear Mind, Open Heart.
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and that was a practical program.
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It looked at teaching mindfulness, you know, the top 10 mindfulness skills, what they are, and, you know, and what are the exercises that you need to do to practice them to build that foundation.
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And I kind of got people to learn that bit first, and then the second part of the program and three-part program was, okay, but let's not forget these quality-of-life areas.
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You know, the top five, you know, relationships, work, money, health, and leisure.
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there are more, but these are kind of five big ones.
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you know, again, what does the research say are the top 10 predictors in each one of those that you need to be doing? Like, you know, for relationships, you know, communication skills, problem-solving, you know, empathy, whatever it is.
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So the second part of the program was teaching people to goal set and use strategies from the research about how to improve those life areas.
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And then the third one was that Tibetan monk in the snow stuff.
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It was, and there's this place beyond all of that, that you can awaken to that top-of-the-mountain experience aha moment, What are the methods and processes that we can use to uncover that experience and then start to set up our life to come from that place more and more.
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and that's sort of really the, the program, but it t-to me, it highlights, you know, the bigger or deeper principles that, to have both working, is really balanced life.
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Not just to have the quality of life in place, but to have that inner world working, uh, in tandem with it.
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What you're talking about with your course really sounds like a, a key something that everybody should know, but it sounds like enough people find Mm.
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it always still surprises me.
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but then, you know, I didn't think think about it for a long while myself, you know, just trying to ki- kick those goals.
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yeah, isn't it interesting, you know, what, gets us to stop and, and reflect, you know? Sometimes it can be because we have got those goals, ticked, but there's still some level of dissatisfaction, or there's some le- level of ambition or drive that there, but there must be more.
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I- I've got to make sure it's, you know, bigger or safer or something or other.
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so it's interesting how...
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But I think at some point people have to, well, as Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living," ha- have to stop and reflect and go, "Well, is this it?" Or, or, you know, what about the, who, you know, who, who am I in this? I, I got quite practical with that program in the end, so I, I created not just the program, we ran it through, you know, government grants and research and, you know, for the community and through COVID and lot, you know, this three-part program over six weeks.
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but the last version I've done is put it into a, a 30-day book program.
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So, you know, people do, the Clear Mind Open Heart book, and they do one, introduction and exercise, introduction, exercise each day.
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And so it's like a slow drip to get that information, accessible, and it's really practical, hands-on stuff.
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So yeah, that's, that's one way that people can, can make use of the material and, take it into their own life in some way Sounds fantastic.
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while you're talking about this, my mind is going to, drive a society that is in a better place, from what age up would people need to be considering this type of thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Interesting.
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if I look at some of the traditions and what they do, they start off with, and this probably maps, um, some of, you know, Piaget and, and Kohlberg's research on development in, in children that ch- you know, children have, like, a cognitive capacity only for certain amounts at certain ages, and so you have to sort of map that appropriately.
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So, you know, for example, in the early stages, uh, a young child can't quite distinguish between whether they've dropped the glass and it broke or they are angry and they smashed the glass and it broke.
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They feel, just as guilty in both because the glass broke.
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They, they don't have the, the cognitive capacity yet to, to make these subtle distinctions, in terms of blame and intention and so on.
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So you have to relate to the child at that level, and then as their brain grows and they get through different developmental stages, Piaget and others have found that they have greater capacity to understand things more, and therefore you can give them more.
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So in view of that, I would probably think, you know, grounding in the basic principles of life skills would be the first place to be starting.
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you know, there's ethical frameworks in terms of care, care for others and, and responsibility and being reasonable and c- you know, communicating and being transparent and all these really good, wholesome ways of being stuff first as that grows.
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Uh, and then over time, when there is that greater complexity to be able to self-inquire, which would probably come closer into that adolescence onwards time.
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one of the great questions, that they use in some of the Hindu traditions, 'cause I said I, I've done a fair amount of, training with different traditions, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist mainly, but certainly reading and research in other traditions.
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One of the lovely methods that, you can bring in at that more inquiry stage is literally what they call the self-inquiry method, and it goes like this.
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It's very simple.
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It's just you ask, "Who am I?" And then you're meant to respond to that question.
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and you go, "Well, I don't know.
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I'm a dad or something."
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And the response has to be then not that.
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When why? Well, two reasons.
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One, because you might be a dad or, or a mum, but that's not just all you are.
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It is, it is definitely a quality or a component or an attribute.
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And if your answer is that it's, uh, an attribute or it's a role or it's a quality of you in some way, some aspect, then we negate it.
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So you go, "Who am I?" And you go, "I'm a dad."
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And the response is not that.
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"Who am I?" And you go, "Okay.
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Okay, so I'll go a bit deeper."
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You know, "I'm a soul."
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Okay.
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You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna beat this method, get there quickly.
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Okay.
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Well, and the answer to that one is not that.
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Why? Well, 'cause that's also a concept, you know? Uh, look, it might, you might, be true somewhere, but do you also have a body? Yes.
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Well, see, not just a soul, are you? So anyway, the point is, "Who am I?" You answer it.
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Whatever you come up with, you negate, not that, and then respond again with, you know, "Who am I?" Answer, not that.
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And you can do that 10 times, 20 times, 30 times until, the mind starts to slow down in its response and there's this silence.
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It's like, "Oh, God, what else am I gonna come up with? Who am I?" Um- And the mind's temporarily silent.
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It's looking, hasn't found anything yet.
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And at that point, the method's done its job until the mind starts up again.
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"I found one."
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Okay.
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And where this goes is eventually, this self-inquiry method can get to the point to where you're genuinely looking, you know, "Where is this sense of me? Where is this? What is this?" And it can get to a point to where you're looking, and you're looking, and you're looking in silent, into a, into a s- into silence 'cause the mind's not coming up with anything.
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And it's like the method essentially goes, "Well, that's it.
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Who am I?" Uh, um, and basically to cut the long story short, the, the answer is that essentially you, you would say that you're this awareness that's Seen, and it's acting, uh, through your body and through your mind.
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anyway, it's a great technique, and I think at that point, uh, when a child is at a level where they can a- ask and inquire, this could be a chance to start looking at, you know, are you more than just, as the other research would say, the number one predictor of, self-esteem is social comparison.
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How I, how am I against my mates in sport or my friends in maths or, science? In other words, wherever we have our loading very strongly, ourself as in terms of other people, that's often what determines self-esteem.
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So these kinds of methods are quite good for that because it's like, "Well, who am I? Well, I'm a lousy runner."
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Uh, not that.
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And you keep going.
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Oh, that's a fascinating way to actually, look at it.
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one of my other guests, their comment about comparison was that, uh, comparison is the thief of joy Hmm.
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Yeah.
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I mean, if you're top of the heap, it, it's not, but, uh, life doesn't keep you there for long usually.
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As you well know and you've spoken about, everything changes Mm-hmm.
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That's exactly.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So Patrick, what does it mean to you, your family, or the community that you're able to be working with mindfulness-based wellbeing? well, I think, uh, the primary bit that is, I, I feel my, uh, one of my contribution points in terms of the community is to open out the conversation about mental health to kick bigger goals than, than, than coping and resilience, which of course, at a very introductory level are critical and incredibly important.
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but once we've achieved that, and often that might be a bit like a hospital, you know, you've got emergency department, then you've got gen- general hospital, but then you've got, you know, wellness clinics.
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And I would say that, um, a lot of the mental health, conversation is around that, almost that emergency department or hospital level that trying to help people who are suffering, uh, which is a critical part of the sequence, but it shouldn't be the whole conversation.
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and I think this, what we're looking at now, which is, you know, awakening to the true nature of a human being that is, you know, is c- can be at peace and at rest just in themselves, should be part of that, uh, mental health conversation.
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And so that's one of the areas I feel because I've had a background in clinical psychology, but also, theology and n- now research in terms of the predictors of these, uh, spiritual awakening experiences or, the psychology of enlightenment, if you like, is some of my research areas.
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Uh, I think the mental health conversation and also the psychologists, I mean, I, I, I run also a psychology company with, you know, a, a number of psychologists, and, I, I think the opportunity is when people come to get help that, uh, they are obviously compassionately worked with to reduce their symptoms and, and increase their functioning.
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But then the psychologists or the counselors or whoever's working with people's mental health could also have a bigger paradigm, which is that, you know, who you are is also beyond all of this.
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and if the practitioner has done the work to experience that themselves, then they might have some language and methodologies to be able to assist someone to, encounter that for themselves, which then has a profound imp- impact upon mental health.
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So I think that's really one of my, one of my points along with trying to bring together a bit more the, in the research, the, the paradigms in, of psychology and the spiritual traditions, but in a mainstream way, because I would say that if it's the natural functioning of a human being, uh, to experience these ways of being, then we should be able to find the, the mainstream secular language to be able to explain that.
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So they are a few of my intersection points with, uh, the community and what I can bring to that.
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I worked with the state government for 19-odd years, and one of the things that I noted later in my time with them, I'm not there anymore, but what I noticed was that it seems almost suddenly there's an, an explosion of mental health interventions, I'll call them.
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And to me, it felt like they had the, whole process upside down.
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And what you've been talking about today, for me, puts the process the right way up the perspective of the individuals need to know how to make it work for themselves.
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And when they're able to do that, then potential that they fall into that emergency department mental health, intervention, it's less likely that they'll get to that point.
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Would that be a Yeah fair of looking at it? Yeah, for su- for sure.
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It's, it's really quite a, has a, a lot of sort of preventative, uh, implications or consequences.
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You know, when, when someone can be in touch with this, uh, intangible experience of just feeling completely okay, completely, just, uh, there's, there's nothing there when they look inside that's, that's, that's moving or that's problematic.
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It's a very peaceful way of being.
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and, interestingly enough, once I was working with, um, she was a very, very devout, Christian, and she, uh, came when she was working with a trauma, quite a significant trauma.
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And, uh, this is back in the day, and I, I...
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What I did was, um, asked her to bring the memory of that trauma, into her connection to her spiritual states, which she'd previously kept separate.
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and so we, in a session, we worked on guiding to bring them together.
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And when she was in that, that deep prayerful state, which, you know, was genuine for her, and then I invited her to bring that trauma in, uh, the, the potency of her inner experience was so strong that when it, when she brought in all those memories and images, it just...
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They just weren't there.
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They just, they, they came, and they just stopped.
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They just dissolved or, or you could say burnt away, or they, they disappeared in that space.
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And it's partly because she'd never really made them speak to each other, and also because when you do sit in this deeper place, it's very intangible, and it, it's...
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Nothing kind of tangible can touch it.
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And, uh, perhaps that's what happened, you know.
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She brought something tangibly that was very painful into that place, and it, it just couldn't survive it.
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so I think there's a lot of power, uh, that we, that we have as a being, and, the kind of unfortunate thing is that, that the access to that isn't, um, isn't taught.
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But it's also not taught because a lot of the practitioners and people generally haven't, un-encountered that or uncovered that themselves.
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which is why mindfulness, they say, you know, the primary work first is that you are a practitioner, uh, so that you are experiencing this.
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And then you can develop more, clear methodologies that can assist people to, to also experience that.
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harks back a little bit to the question I asked earlier about, you know, when can people take this on, sort of at what age? And it's almost like society has away from all this capability and pushed us down, I'll call it the 20% line, we're just chasing, the jobs and the money and, uh, and that sort of thing.
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And Yep not aware and not, not been told about, or no one's identified that there's another avenue that we really need to include in our life, and that's like 80% of making it happen well.
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Yeah.
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So it Yeah it seems that society, the way that we focus drives us down the wrong path intuitively.
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and there's no connections or the connections are very sparse to get back onto a good track Hmm.
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Yeah, I, I, I agree with you and I, I think it's simply a, a matter of, if people haven't experienced it, then it's hard f- to lead other people to that.
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And if you're in a teaching position or something or other, I, I think there is something also slightly, whatever the word is, nefarious or, or not evil or, or...
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But a certain capitalism that it also is less interested in, uh, you know, when kind of greed does take over.
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it's a little bit like junk food is easier to, eat than nutritious food, and so then appealing to people's, tendency to just go with what's easy, tasty, and bad for you.
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that, that is a tendency.
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there's a lov- lovely line I haven't remembered for a while.
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St.
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Thomas Aquinas, a paraphrase of something this great theologian said was that, um, "M- man is essentially good, but with a tendency to evil."
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I thought it was sort of like it's, um, the quality is sort of quite realistic there.
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so I think we have this, but we also have these tendencies to be, to go the easy, and unhealthy route.
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And so, um, we do need people, out in the community in, in, in leadership and training and so on, to really lead the way in these, in these areas on to, on many levels, on marketing, advertising, government policy, uh, a range of things that address what ultimately is, is good, good for humans.
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And also, if you look at, um, there's a lot of, uh, you know, done a lot of research on, say for example, the correlation between hospital admissions, and m- and mental health and y- you know, if someone experiences anxiety they, they have a much higher, not necessarily each person, but as a general trend, uh, they'll have a higher hospital, a- admission rate on other topics that are not connected to anxiety.
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and so for example, if we focused a little bit more on this inner wellbeing place, it has a huge impact upon so many areas, just that one, hospital admissions, which of course has a massive impact upon, fiscal policy in terms of budgets and available, available finances for other, you know, you know, wellbeing things that can then help people be happier overall.
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So I think th- this topic has a lots of other implications.
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I, I, I tend to focus more on, the means and methodologies for people to experience, this way of being beyo- beyond all of it.
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But I very realistically see its, its relevance across many other, more commercially oriented topics Yes, it sounds a little to me like the homelessness situation.
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You can't point your finger at one thing and say that's the answer.
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There's a raft of different things, and every person in that situation has some variation on their journey to homelessness.
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Hmm uh, is similar in a lot of ways.
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There's a lot of interacting factors that actually create the scenario where departments need to put in mental health programs as effectively emergency interventions Yep.
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And then, to upgrade their definition of mental health to focus a, a lot more on once you're out of crisis, how do we, how do we build that robust way of being, so that you come back here less often? For your sake as, as much as the, the organization's, of course.
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absolutely.
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are people.
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they really need to understand that they are people and a group of people.
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And, you know, the fact that there's a, like an ABN number It's a construct, an economic construct, and not a real being, if you know what I mean.
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Patrick, If you had something to say about mindfulness-based wellbeing, would you want to tell an audience? primarily that there, that there are, much greater and deeper experiences of, of, of yourself or oneself that are, that are possible outside, the typical event-based, approach to life.
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And that there's a, there's a chance that people, can find methods that can assist them to, to go within.
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That there's an experience that's, uh, just what I might call beyond form.
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that is so different from our normal concepts of, of mental health and wellbeing, that we may not have encountered it before, but it is what I would call our, our birthright, our, our true nature.
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And, I guess that's what I'm primarily focusing on, on bringing i-into greater awareness.
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th-this way of experiencing ourselves, uh, you know, should ultimately be e-everyone's opportunity to experience.
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Yeah.
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That gives people much hope Hmm.
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And one, one of the ways in terms of what, um, things that I do in terms of how people can access this, if that's, um, relevant, obviously at my, website, drpatrickjones.com,
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in that they can see some of the, materials that I've looked at.
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We've got sort of a range of, of free research that, that's there.
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One of the academic books, uh, I've edited, The Psychology of Happiness and the Psychology of Enlightenment, you know, had like a, you know, 10 or so researchers from around the world all discussing different topics in terms of, this particular interface.
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And the links, the free links to that book are on, on the website.
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and if people want to access also the book Clean Out an Open Heart, which is that 30-day program, um, there's ways to, to buy that on the, on the website.
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And of course, just the opportunity for either mentoring or ongoing, speaking in different places that, that happen a-along the way.
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There's a, there's a few options if, if people wanna access that, that material a bit, a bit more.
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Wonderful.
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Thank you for that.
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And, and what is next for you, Patrick? Oh, yep.
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Um, I'm literally, uh, editing the, right at the last stages of, my third book, it's called Enlightenment Psychology, and it's, uh, in two parts looking at both, uh, the journey, the spiritual or the psycho-spiritual journey you could say to that inner wellbeing place is the first part of it.
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And then second b- bit is, uh, lots of Q&As with students over, over the years in terms of their experiences with that.
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it's a, been a fantastic experience to, to write this one and, uh, head- heading off to the, to the publishers soon Oh, we'll look forward to that.
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We'll, we'll have to update the description on the podcast with a, a link when that, that one's available Yeah.
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Sounds good Thank you very much, Patrick, for being on Forrest.Chat,
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and all Forrest.Chat
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listeners wish you the best with your future endeavors Great.
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Thank you.
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And yeah, thanks for the opportunity to say a bit more about some of these really important topics A pleasure.
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You've been listening to "Forrest.Chat,"
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your host, Paul van der Mey, and in today's episode, we've been talking with Dr.
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Patrick Jones about mindfulness-based wellbeing.
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