Speaker 1: Jess Perry, welcome to First Light, the podcast we have here at S-Lighting. Really appreciate you making some time to ⁓ and join us and talk us about your story.
Speaker 2: Thanks, James. Yeah, good to be here. I've known you for a long time. So yeah, I know that this is one of your little passions that you've been wanting to do. ⁓
Speaker 1: It is my it is. So we're just going to start with some people know you some people don't. So let's maybe just give us a little tell us a little bit about Jess Perry.
Speaker 2: Wow, Perry, okay. Jess Perry grew up in Melbourne. Tulio's about 10 years old and then we moved up to the country. I've always had a passion for, I guess, creative endeavors, which brought me into lighting about 21 years ago now. And yeah, I've loved getting into this industry becoming a lighting designer and now running ⁓ a lighting. practice in Melbourne. I reckon you're going to learn a little bit more about me as we go through this podcast.
Speaker 1: Good stuff, mate. Now, before lighting design, though, you were in industrial design. Yes. So what at what point did and what drew you into lighting?
Speaker 2: I studied industrial design. That's a question. I would say that I was never drawn into lighting per se. As I said, I grew up in Dalesford and I'm probably going to start back there because even from a young age, did have, I was really interested in how to passion in creative endeavors, I guess, whether that was drawing or in Dalesford particularly. I lived with my mom and my sister in this little cottage in Dalesford, actually Hepburn Springs, and it backed onto some bushland. And I spent so much time in that bushland from the ages of probably 12 to 18. And I used to hang out there and I'd always come across these sort of strange discarded objects. They furniture, car parts, old bottles. ⁓ suitcases, there were so many suitcases out in the bush. don't know how they got there, but they were like little treasure item because you you'd open them up. You wouldn't know what you're going to find nearly every time. Adult magazines had ⁓ covers ripped off them. Anyway, it was those things kind of started up or were the catalyst actually for a strange hobby of mine. I used to lug those things back to our to our little cottage.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'll take them apart. I used to put them back together create these weird like, you know, assembly sculptures. think I called them back in the day. And I was so into sculpture that when I finished high school, I applied and I got into Victorian College of the Arts to sculpture. But then I came across this guy, Philip Stark. And obviously everyone him as a industrial designer.
Speaker 1: Alright.
Speaker 2: And he was designing such amazing things that I thought, you know what, maybe I should do industrial design. So I did that instead. And at the end of that course, there was about three unis that were providing industrial design as a course. So there's about 120 new industrial designers in Melbourne every year. And there was two advertised jobs. So for the next few years, like everyone else who studied industrial design, We had odd jobs, traveled, I traveled. And I came back and there this guy, Paul Beale, who had just started up a company called ElectroLite. And he was working out of a studio and a friend of mine who was working in that studio, shared studio space, mentioned to me that he was after someone just to help with some documentation. So that's how I got into industrial design, ⁓ sorry, into lighting design. And the more I was in it, the more I was learning about it, the more I started to, you know, get this real of satisfaction from undertaking these designs. And very much was equal parts, creativity and your and function. and that just kind of clicked with the way my brain worked. And that same sense of satisfaction is what I got from making those little sculptures at home. So once I to get that, that feel, I knew it was the right thing for me to do.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. So literally, you know, you know, I think most people fall into lighting somehow. And that's your, that was your gateway drug.
Speaker 2: I fell into it and yeah, it just kind of clicked what I enjoyed doing. I mean, before that and back at school, I didn't know that lighting design as a profession existed. I don't think many people know it exists now, but yeah, I absolutely love it.
Speaker 1: It's one of those things that meet somebody and what do you do? I'm a lighting designer. What's your answer? Because it's something a of people know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, I always preface it with architectural lighting designer because people just assume it's stage theatrical lighting, which it's not, not that type of scale. So yeah, I always just say I, I'm a lighting, architectural lighting designer. work with interiors, developers to come up lighting schemes that support the aspirations for their work. And I think that's we, ⁓ do. And then people
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Don't ask any more questions.
Speaker 1: But if they did, they'd discover the amazing projects we get to work on, Like you've worked on some phenomenal spaces and projects internationally even. we'll probably get into it later. But what are some of your favorites, like standout projects you've worked on and had the opportunity to
Speaker 2: It's a good question. The standout projects probably aren't based around, you I received or we received an amazing outcome on the project, although it's nice to see, but they're probably more projects where you've collaborated with, you know, a design team or, you know, ⁓ on project where everybody is of has the same aim and are open, you know, to getting there. And it's been a really kind of collaborative, creative So yeah, I could give you projects, but you probably wouldn't know them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't have to be like, it's this whiz bang building or this place. just that whole ticks every box. Felt good. You know, it's scratch that itch for you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: In fact, I'd say that the bigger the projects and the ones that sort of most people would recognize would be the ones that you you had to fight hardest for your ideas as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And was there a time when you, you know, started off 21 years ago and you were working with Paul. Was there a moment where you went, wow, I can really, I think I'm going to dig in here. This is, this is awesome. Like I can really see myself doing this for a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it was that moment where I started to feel that same sense of satisfaction from the work that I got from, you know, dabbling away at my sculptures. and when I used to do that back in Dalesford, I didn't do it to show anybody like, know, close family knew I did it. A few friends knew I did it. They just thought I was weird, you know? but now I get to, know, use light as a medium to, create these, ⁓ you know, beautiful ⁓ And I don't have to lug it through the bush, you know, so it went for me.
Speaker 1: and that learning curve, was, obviously you started doing little bits and pieces ⁓ then you have to learn the craft. And I mean, there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 2: There is a lot to learn and Paul, to his credit, threw me in the deep end very early and yeah, of forced me outside my comfort zone in all kinds of of lighting design. The technical stuff was stuff that I felt comfortable with. The ideas, coming up with the ideas I felt comfortable with at an early age. It was, it was all the other things that go into lighting design that perhaps I didn't feel so comfortable with. And that was, you presentations. was, project you know, all, all of those other things that are important. So, he, ⁓ literally was the face electrolyte. He was out there. He was charismatic. He was getting the work. He was cold calling. He was being rejected. was calling again. You know, it was impressive, but heartbreaking to be that one, cause I was the first employee to sit there, you know, sort of seeing how he And I've never had to have been in that situation either where you're, you know, just cold calling for work. ⁓ I'm glad I ⁓ been, I feel fortunate I haven't been, but you know, who knows how everything will pan out in this climate. ⁓ yeah, he threw me in the deep end.
Speaker 1: Yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I was the only employee for a little while there. And yeah, he just got me into coming out with ideas and, and helping him with the designs from a very early age, which was, which was really good mentoring.
Speaker 1: Yep. So just to clarify, light designer, you do light engine for people who don't know, but you have crossed over and designed light fittings as well in some projects.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I studied industrial design. I had a sort of base level skill, which could be adapted to light fitting design or light feature design. So yes, we, I was able to apply those skills. that was useful. and, I've, you know, been involved in customs on and over the last 21 years. yeah, they certainly their place, but that's not certainly not every project that that is, is undertaken.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you're the, now 21 years later, you're one of the directors at Electrolyte and you're also the head of design. Is there a lot of crossover? Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Head of design at the Melbourne studio. Just for everybody else, there is a Sydney studio and there's a San Francisco office as well. Yeah. That's an interesting story that because I was the first employee at Electrolyte 21 years ago. After about six years, Paul came to me and he said, I want you to oversee all the projects. And I said, okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's a bit of a change because we started off and you know, for those first few years, was a number of employees, that, at that time, but everybody was working in isolation. That on a project and you'd sort of work that project through and issue it. And the collaboration only came if the project was too big for one person. So I there was a desire. both aesthetically and also from a quality control perspective to have someone over said, so Paul said, yes, I want you to be that person. And I said, okay, does that mean I'm going to get paid some more money? No, I didn't. didn't say that. I never asked for that actually, but you know, he was good to me. Um, so I took on that role and then he said, Oh, I want you to come up with the name for your role, your title. I'm like, Oh, get to pick my own title. That's good. And I toured with a whole bunch of options. and, know, I was young and I was going out and I didn't take it quite as seriously as I probably should have. You know, I came up with like things like chief, know, lead, studio director, you know, the head job and, I tabled to partner at the time. And she said that she didn't think that having a business card with head job on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: would attract the right customers. was kind of merged all those into, I forgot my own title, ⁓ head of ⁓ and that was, that was the reason, cause that's what I was doing. I was kind of overseeing all the designs and I don't go by that title anymore. might be sort of leftover on the website to describe what I do in that role. And I do oversee all the projects that leave the Melbourne office at every stage that project milestone.
Speaker 1: Head of Design? Yeah.
Speaker 2: concept DD construction docs. So I still do that. then Paul, you left electrolyte Australia head over to the UK with his family. And at that time we got offered, I guess, the ⁓ option of, you taking over the reins and running the Melbourne offices. And I myself and Salisbury and Alicia Howard. We all became directors or think Don was already a director in the Sydney office, but we became directors. at that same time. I guess that role just brought with it, brought with it a, you know, more of a direction, people management side of which I enjoy. But first and you my design is passion. My training that I've had is, is enlightening and ⁓ that's my focus and passion. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yep. Yep. Do you do less of that? lifting these days?
Speaker 2: I still work on some of my sort of, you know, get involved in some of the hands-on stuff for projects. particularly the conceptual stuff at the start. ⁓ but there's a of, you know, ⁓ a bunch people that are working on multiple projects at any one time. So I kind of see myself more as an, an overseer, of all of the projects and.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: To tell you the truth, enjoy that. seeing, you know, what the, you know, talented group of people at our office ⁓ up with. and sometimes I need to kind of, you know, bump it a little bit to the side or whatever it might be, but, yeah, just make sure we're on track.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, good. that's probably the only thing with as go through the ranks and you can enjoy doing the design and that's the stuff that makes you feel good. When you to focus on something that's not great, you know, just maybe people manage, but you enjoy it. But you know, sometimes he's actually really want to design.
Speaker 2: still get my fair share of design in my work. ⁓ that's gets me up in the morning. That's why I fortunate and excited to go to work every day, because of the design, not because I'm a director.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you mentioned offices in Sydney and San Fran, big company. How do you, how does Electrolyte, how do you think Electrolyte does things differently to perhaps your competition or to other
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a question. think that at Electrolyte, we've always had a focus for being, you know, present with the projects we're working on and giving the consideration and the time and the thought that it needs. And if we that for every project, we usually get a pretty decent outcome. And through that method, been able to develop really amazing relationships with, like-minded clients. And we haven't really focused too much on what our competitors are doing. And I do keep eye out just whether it's on Instagram ⁓ or socials to what they're designing. And there's some amazing lighting designers around. And some the work they do is very inspiring, but we don't really let it influence us. ⁓ think we just focus on what we know we need to do and that's work for us. And, you we've managed to pick up some recognition through awards by doing as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you cross over much with the other officers? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sydney, yes. Whether it's a collaboration on a project or helping each with work as required. San Fran, less so. Their market's very different over there in the US. They have own team. They tend to do the things a little bit different in their way compared to us. When Melbourne and while we're both in Australia, Sydney is very different from Melbourne as well. both in a design style, I would say, and even how projects are run, it seems.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So when you're running a project, when you start a project, what's the process? We start with the architecture or you start with the concepts or how does it work? Can you just take us through how that might?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think with a lot of design industries, the process is pretty similar, whether it's architecture, interior or landscape. The most important thing of working on a project is getting a very clear understanding of the aspirations and the requirements of that project. Then you take all that information and you do some high level thinking, inspirational thinking to come up with ideas. Once those ideas are approved, you work out technical solutions try and achieve them and document and model that accordingly. doesn't regardless of project.
Speaker 1: When you come up with these amazing concepts and ideas and you go to present to a client you're super excited about it and they vary that equal is excited or they fall flat. How do you sort of cross that and sort of negotiating ⁓ a concept or how does that work?
Speaker 2: Well, I think the thing here is to not take any feedback. ⁓ by its very nature is subjective. Some people may love it. Most people might think it's a great idea. The client may not. And that's okay. You know, we're working for the client to try and meet the aspiration that they have for their project. And so we don't always nail it. I like to think that we always give it a lot of thought. And through that process, I think that
Speaker 1: Yeah sure.
Speaker 2: the options they generally well received and occasionally they're not but we always go into these presentations the first thing we say is this a concept we've come up with through lots of consideration but we're not precious and if don't like it just tell us because we don't want people thinking we don't want to you know step on their toes or we don't want you know make the relationship difficult
Speaker 1: Good and we'll move on.
Speaker 2: by being straight up, you know, clear, truthful. But it's always the best way and the easiest way.
Speaker 1: Is there sometimes when you have to push to because you know, it's hitting ⁓ codes and certain, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's like guys trust us, you know, it is enough light or, know, you don't want that there, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah there is. Yeah, There's a few instances. think one of them is that's been coming up lately is or clients, usually or interior designers actually, putting forward an interior that is of dark surfaces and telling us the client doesn't to have a moody space. ⁓ And so can we as lighting designers make it feel bright? Now we cannot do that. You know, the lighting supports the interior. If the interior inherently is moody, the lighting will make it a little bit less moody if you really pump a full of light. generally, ⁓ there is certain expectations that are not always physically possible. So yeah, and that's more just about the people we're working with trusting us a little bit that if we let them know that a dark space, even from a lighting perspective is going to feel moody. If they don't want that, they kind of need to look at the interior. Yeah. And then we can use lighting to support that. But yeah, they're, they're sort of difficult conversations or if we have to light a pool, for example, to a certain light level, but no one wants any lights over the pool because it's hard to maintain.
Speaker 1: finish.
Speaker 2: You know, once again, just a practically difficult challenge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, does it get easier like you do lot of repeat work and know those is it the trust grows and you do, know, 20 years of projects. ⁓
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And that's why you see it not just with us, but everybody has their, you know, consistent teammates that they work with, know, different companies pair together well, because they've built up that trust. And so I guess best clients that we work with, the clients that we have built up that trust with, and that they acknowledge it. And I they feel that we add value, which we believe we do. and are open to our ideas and those results are always the best.
Speaker 1: Yeah. If we were talking now, it's an architecture and interior design listening, are a couple of things, a couple of key points you can sort of say, here's some advice. Generally, we're not to use a diffuse light or something like that. Just something that you go to, a couple of gems for them.
Speaker 2: That is such a hard question, James, because the answer to that would be we have, you know, in our Melbourne office combined, you know, a hundred years experience, for example, you don't just have a couple of tidbits to pass out. So I would say, you know, if you want the lighting to have the same consideration as your own architecture, pay a professional and trust them. and work with them. I could say avoid down lights, avoid of lights, all those things, but sometimes they're appropriate. Not usually in the work we do, but every job different.
Speaker 1: That is thing, isn't it? You could give the same plan to, you know, three different lighting designers. Yeah. They'll all come up with something pretty cool. That's not necessarily right.
Speaker 2: I think maybe one, one tip if I had to give a tip would be color temperature. Ensure that the color temperature that you want supports the ambience that you're trying to achieve. That might be really warm, know, 2,400 Kelvin in a sexy bar, or it might be three and a half thousand neutral white in a hospital. but make sure you pair it because that color temperature has such a massive impact on the ambience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do little tours here and we make, I think that's the biggest thing when we sort of take it through some different color temperatures, talk about color rendering and ⁓ things are massive. It's such an impact on the project.
Speaker 2: technical and unless people see the difference with their own eyes, it's hard to imagine, you know, on paper, a color temperature of 85 CRI versus 95 CRI. It's like, hang on, the lower one's cheaper. I'll just go with that. Or actually let's understand what the difference is.
Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah, do do a lot of that. Do you mean clients you haven't we were new clients, you tend to go through that a little bit.
Speaker 2: We, in our conceptual sort of report that we put together for every project, we always identify the color of light that we would recommend. We don't get into the CRI too much unless it was something like a gallery and ultra important, but we do have our own minimum standards at ElectroLite. So we would never specify something under 80 and ideally it's 90 CRI. And for those of you who don't know what the hell we're talking about, CRI is color rendering index. And it's a value out of a hundred to determine how well the light that comes out of the light fitting represents a number of all different colors. So might find you, you know, a low CRI might make your red t-shirt look pink, for example. Yeah. So if you want to be true to color, go high CRI.
Speaker 1: Yep. They're the little gems we need, mate. They're the little gems. Yeah. And I think the one that, it's not unusual now, but dimming is, know, kind of people did dimming in a few areas, but these days it doesn't hurt to have a dimmer. Totally anywhere you can, because you can really change the mood very, very quickly. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I agree. Well, I think what we know as lighting designers and as, you know, just everybody else who goes outside, goes inside is ultimately the lighting doesn't have to be as bright at night. If you don't have dimming, you kind of need to pick, do I want it to look good at night or in the day? you have dimming, you can have it look perfect, you know, at all times. ⁓
Speaker 1: great lighting design. It kind of goes unnoticed if it's that good. You you walk through a space, you're not sure what you're feeling. There's something about it. And is that, you know, that's kind of what you want, right? That's the idea.
Speaker 2: 100%. If no one notices what we do, we've done our job. ⁓ yeah, an interesting one. mean, I wouldn't call it great lighting. I'd call it considered lighting myself. in my opinion, you know, the best outcome that we can hope for is to a where if somebody is within that space, they,
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: they can't really tell the difference between, you know, the architecture, interior, the lighting, it all kind of blurs and works together beautifully. And that might be lighting that, know, softly feature materials or textures, you know, to enhance the environment, the visual environment. I think lighting that is the opposite of terrible. Everybody notices that. It's true. observation I've had is nearly always the light fittings themselves that people comment on. Whereas the considered lighting or great lighting, you know, in a lot of cases, those light fittings aren't even noticeable. ⁓ least that's our approach in lot of instances.
Speaker 1: They disappear completely. They disappear. that you start off with trying do that, right? You are using direct light where you really, really need it in most cases, that fair?
Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. We have obviously layers of light. anything that is not needed to be seen, we try and conceal it from view.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess what we know is that, you know, lighting has the ability to influence how a person experiences a space. light does, not fittings. ⁓
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 2: Let's work with the light and try and hide the light fitting is I guess it's a philosophy that we've used for a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, unless I want a feature pendant and then that's becoming part of space and the architecture.
Speaker 2: Which James, yeah, you sell some beautiful pendants and we certainly wouldn't want to try and hide those. Exactly. Exactly. But all the stuff that is not meant to be seen, it's not necessary for it to be seen. Try and hide it. then you can focus on those beautiful feature pendants or wall lights or table lamps that you want to put in that are designed for people to see because they are beautiful objects.
Speaker 1: you. Yeah. So the end of the design, you've approved and the project gets commissioned and it's done. You offer the service and you go back later and you tweak and aim and commission the project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, normally it's not commissioned and done. Normally that is the part that we're involved with. So straight after this, have to head off, I have to go to a project, which is an office space where we worked on, know, common areas, breakout spaces, know, reception, first point of view for clients. So I have to go there. It's all installed. It's all working. I have to go there, set the dimming levels for every layer of light that we have in that space. pick the color temperature for all the tunable lights, check light levels where required and yeah, and bring it all together. And that process at end there compared to if you didn't do it, I would say adds, ⁓ you know, % of impact at the end. Like that is a stage you can not just say, you know what, let's just leave it at 100%, it will be okay.
Speaker 1: the client often come with you on that walkthrough or do you explain you're doing that? ⁓
Speaker 2: It's totally true. the client may turn up and may be there, often not. I often not is because it takes long time and they want hang around, you know? So it might be over a few days that we commission a project on a big project, a hotel, example, it might a week.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We're working through every space. We're sitting there with the program and we're grouping lights, we're dimming lights, we're having multiple scenes throughout the day and evening that automatically transition to create the best ambience for every daylight or nighttime scenario. And I don't think most clients want to sit through that. What we do say is that, us go away and set it. you go and have a look at it. If you, if you feel something needs tweaking, let us know and we'll come back and tweak that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you, I mean, I don't think a lot of people know that, you know, it doesn't just stop that the design you guys have done. This is the whole full circle, right? go, this is where the hidden service comes in. Nobody really knows that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not hidden in the fee, but outlined very clearly. There a couple of projects where we don't get involved in. You know, the final commissioning process, maybe we were asked to put on hourly rates and someone wants to save a few dollars at the end. And that's disappointing, but know, everyone to their own. ⁓ kind of depends on the project too. Like certain clients, like we're talking about earlier, if we have a relationship and a trust there, they'll always get us in because they know the importance and see the value. If a new client, particularly maybe designing a resi house, they might not engage us for that last process. ⁓ happened on occasion. That's I mean, we'd never see it to know any different, but yeah, we that it could be improved.
Speaker 1: Sometimes when you have an idea and you've got the concepts, a little bit of a leap of faith still, even with all your experience, you try and do a mock up and you try and, you like, there's always like, I hope this works.
Speaker 2: mean, there's from experience and we want sort of fall into a cookie cutter situation where we just reuse the same ideas, although when ideas do work well and it's appropriate, it makes sense to use them. But every project has bunch of new ideas and all new solutions to try and achieve those ideas. And I think you get to know from experience what does work and what doesn't. But yeah, there's always some, you know, little ideas in there that you're kind of keen to see how well they worked out. Going to site is what sort of proves it to you. And I'd say that out of the whole process, seeing it at the end is probably the biggest learning experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's right. And also the reward for you. You work sometimes months or years on a project. Yeah. You get to the end, like, you get to walk through it and that's, know, walking through your own work is pretty, pretty ⁓
Speaker 2: Yeah. pretty cool and I guess we're fortunate that because we just do lighting we are always working on a number of projects at any one time so it's not like you know an architect who might work on one project for six years know we're seeing our work completed you know lots of different jobs from you know small jobs of sculptures to houses to bars and some of the bigger projects every couple of years but we're always seeing some kind of finished results so you do get that reward. ⁓
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good. And as as bringing on new clients or, know, do you have, would you spearhead or would you give it to the team and say, Hey, who's excited to work on this project? know, it's like something exciting comes in.
Speaker 2: If we've already got the job. ⁓ well, guess that's part of the job that I have myself and Alicia at the Melbourne studio is that ⁓ delegate the workout to different stuff and all of our staff have different strengths. And so we often try and pair their strengths with the project that we think would do, you know, would be best suited to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.
Speaker 2: It's not just them working in isolation as well, you know, we kind of have multiple people on projects. I'm always involved in those projects. yeah, we certainly work to their strengths and and up the projects accordingly.
Speaker 1: We talked earlier about, you know, lighting design, you're casting luminaires and things like that. Is it something you and stray away from? you know, hopefully there's something out there or you enjoy it or, what's the process? This, I mean, it's ⁓ risky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ⁓ Well, that's it. just hit the nail on their head there. is the pro. The pro is you come up with a unique element that, you know, the client can say, check out this, you know, no one else has got this and maybe it adds an extra layer of, you know, or elevates the prestige of that project, which is great, but it does come at a risk. And that risk is around anything that is new, it hasn't been done before, hasn't been tried and tested, hasn't had months or years of R &D on it, that you don't always know exactly what you're going to get. Now you could, and that's through prototyping and things like that, but in this day and age with budget and time restraints, there's usually not enough prototypes to sort of... be 100 % certain of exactly what you're going to get. So you do take a little bit of a leap of faith depending on what it is. ⁓
Speaker 1: Yeah. think I it's so hard. What's your budget? And they don't really know how much lighting should cost. Yeah. So how do you have that conversation? mean, this, you could apply this to a lot of things, but lighting's hard because they've got a perception of lights. If they're not in the world of design, perception of light is it's 12 bucks from Bunnings, whatever.
Speaker 2: ⁓ huh. Yeah, it is absolutely. And when my friends have asked me for advice know, can you help me out with a down light or an LED strip or we of have the lowest or most economical light fittings that we would be comfortable using, be it for a friend or be it on a project, which in most cases is too much for, you know, the average and what they're willing to spend on their own home. You know, I'm about, you know, just normal people. ⁓
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you can look at a residential project pretty quickly and say, well, you know, just for the basic level of lighting here, it's going to be 30 grand. Very, very quickly. that can either go, that's not bad. Or they can go, well, yeah. ⁓
Speaker 2: That's right. Um, I think, um, the work that we typically do is working on higher end projects. I think there is an expectation almost maybe works the other way. Maybe if you put in a cost for a light fitting, if it's not enough, think, hang on, is that, it good? Why is it only, why is it only $20,000? Like, I want something that's $50,000 so I can show our friends, but not always.
Speaker 1: Yeah Let's catch. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's, you know, come up on occasion, but, um, that is the mentality sometimes of, of, of homes that are, you know, very high end. Um, but yeah, on a lot of jobs, we, put forward costs, with custom stuff, um, comparing it to say European products that are high end, the custom isn't necessarily, um, more expensive either. Even when you take our fee out of it, that we need to design it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: and when you're looking at large format type features, they really exist over a size. So if you want a big piece, it's probably going to be custom. If you want small piece, there's a thousand options out there already. but if you really want it to be unique, then you have to go down that route. But you know, with, with a lot things being made out of China these days.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure.
Speaker 2: for hotel, for example, you can get a custom wall light. There's 300 of them. They're not actually that expensive. One-offs are.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. Lighting designers. remember when I met you, it was near 20 years, basically we've known each other because I remember you literally just started at Electro Light and I was new in the game as well. And that whole what's a lighting designer, it's come a long way and it's I've seen it, you know, people know now and you know, the architects are more attuned to it. Have you seen the shift mate? it still a little bit? Why do we need a lightness on it?
Speaker 2: It certainly has shifted. I don't think it's shifted as much from when I first met you, when you used to wear the Looney Tunes ties.
Speaker 1: Never. Never.
Speaker 2: Socks. know, people change, lighting designers change, but the recognition, recognition, recognition of our industry certainly changed in the last 20 years. ⁓ add the point now where, you know, new projects, lot of, a lot of new projects, specify the requirement of having a lighting designer on the team. back then that not often the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: we're certainly recognized through that perspective. But if you talk to a lot of people, unless they're kind of big players, like, you know, big design firms, there's probably a misconception of what do in our industry.
Speaker 1: What is the misconception of what you do? What do think that is?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a, it's a, it's a difficult one because we have been around for a long time. We pride ourselves on having sort of creative and technical knowledge, but there's a lot of other people because the industry is unrecognized, not unrecognized. Um, what's the word? Unregistered. It's unregistered. Um, so there's a lot of people out there that. sort of say they're lighting designers, you know, a lot of sales, know, suppliers will say, we're designers. can provide a lighting design for that. and it kind of dilutes a little bit we do. but it is a requirement now for a lot of jobs to have lighting designers. and as a result, a lot of the big services firms now have a lighting design department, which means there's one person who does lighting.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: And they could be gun or they could be somebody who is quite junior, they still have a lighting design department so they can pick up some of these jobs. So a hard, hard to navigate, but I think a lot architects probably still don't know the difference between a sales rep doing a lighting design for them and an experienced lighting designer with education in that field, that process.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What's the of project you enjoy working on? What you sort of land these? Yes, ⁓ love ⁓
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, is a good question. And that is one of the perks of being a director. So I can delegate the stuff that, you know, doesn't interest me as much ⁓ to other people. ⁓ you know, I think as a new lighting designer, even like us has been around 21 ⁓ worked some amazing projects, we still get like run of the mill jobs, you know,
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know the good stuff is Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 2: car park here or, know, well, you know, um, but yeah, we still get some pretty standard jobs that probably don't have the budget or the need to come up with something too creative. They literally, know, people may just want a practical solution and yeah, that's not as exciting. Um, but you know, you kind of just have to try and see the positive in each job and still give it care and, and, know, build your relationships and, um,
Speaker 1: Cup Bugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, move on to the next one.
Speaker 1: the advance in for not lighting, but now AI concepts and all that sort of stuff. Have you thought it? Have you ⁓ gone down the hole yet? How's it impacting you?
Speaker 2: I mean, was a big topic, you know, six months ago, everywhere, you know, not just lighting, just talking about AI and sure, we're going to change the world. think any creative industry, I think that's, you know, obviously good for us that it's hard for AI to up with a solution where the solution differs every If it was a grid of downlights to meet a certain light level, great. So engineers watch out, when it's different every time, I think it's going to take a bit of time for ⁓ to, if it ever ⁓ of gets there. AI can certainly be used by us, ⁓ you for, for presentations, for visualizations, for coming up with, ⁓ you visualizations, ⁓ images. looked that a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There's some people in our Sydney office, they use it a little bit to images. I haven't found it amazing yet, I haven't, you know, delve too far. and I like doing my own visualization. So I kind of, ⁓ maybe secretly hope that maybe it's not there. I, I've stopped my delving for that reason.
Speaker 1: Yes. Good. And what about lighting technology? It's, you know, it was very, very slow at the start 20 years ago. It you know, we were stuck with, you know, metal halide and, you know, halogen in the last 20 years. It's just, it's just gone, you know, gangbusters and we're, you know, getting new releases every week. How do you keep up with that? And how does the team keep up with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. One thing that's come out of it is we don't keep catalogs anymore because they're out of date before we can use the light fittings. So, yeah, everyone uses the catalogs that we did have as computer stands, which we have to be mindful of when we have suppliers come in. Sometimes we have to switch out which catalogs we're using there. But yeah, we don't take on new catalogs anymore. We haven't specified a non-LED type of light fitting for over a decade. is LED. There's so many brands out there. I think it's just about through experience using the brands that have good support locally, that have good efficiencies, all the things that we would look into, good light fittings. ⁓ And you kind of, you have a handful of light fitting brands that you kind of go to. and you get updated on new releases and things that. if it was up to suppliers, we would have five in our office every day, you know, so we have to also limit who we see. Cause there's so much stuff out there, but I think you get pretty good at looking at websites.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: looking at brands and knowing whether they kind of what you do.
Speaker 1: well. Any advice for a young creative who might look at, who has never maybe considered lighting design? Something that you might say, have a look at it or check our website or something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a tricky one. mean, just like me, I didn't know it existed. And I am. Well, I'd say like you mentioned, you know, lighting is sort of equal parts art and science. if your brain's kind of wired that way and you like the challenge of, you know, problem solving, and sort of pairing it with the technical aspect. If your brain's wired that way, then, then check us out. ⁓ You might us a potential career path.
Speaker 1: Thanks If light could consistently make people feel one thing when they walked into one of your projects, what would it be?
Speaker 2: I'm going to answer that James, the most boring answer to finish off this part.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Cause I've thought of this type of scenario before. Um, and it's gotta be like comfort or, you know, thoughtful or whatever it might be. But the problem with that question is every job has a different aspiration for the lighting. And I wouldn't want to say I want the lighting to feel like subdued and sexy, like I would in a bar when you're walking into a hospital, you know, but you do want it to feel appropriate.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. show.
Speaker 2: for the expectation that you have on the environment that you're going. Bar, subdued and sexy. Restaurant, and warm. Hospital, cool uniform and sterile. Yeah, so there's no one.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. You say always want it to at least feel considered and...
Speaker 2: It always needs to be, it needs to feel considered. It needs to feel comfortable. Regardless of what ambience you're trying to create, it's usually around comfort supporting that, that So what a boring way to end that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because every special. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's fine, mate. It's I mean, it's also like, you go to a lot of places, you're out and that's ⁓ thing that you do. You're out, you're out lights. So, you know, you also always looking at this stuff.
Speaker 2: That's true. And that's probably one thing I would say to anyone who wants to get into the industry or considering it. If you become a lighting designer, you will never enjoy a meal in a restaurant again.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Jess, thanks so much, Thank you. Thanks for having on, mate. And yeah, we'll continue to work on maybe getting on again sometime. Awesome, mate. Thanks.
Speaker 2: So. Right. you.
Speaker 2: Thanks, James. Yeah, good to be here. I've known you for a long time. So yeah, I know that this is one of your little passions that you've been wanting to do. ⁓
Speaker 1: It is my it is. So we're just going to start with some people know you some people don't. So let's maybe just give us a little tell us a little bit about Jess Perry.
Speaker 2: Wow, Perry, okay. Jess Perry grew up in Melbourne. Tulio's about 10 years old and then we moved up to the country. I've always had a passion for, I guess, creative endeavors, which brought me into lighting about 21 years ago now. And yeah, I've loved getting into this industry becoming a lighting designer and now running ⁓ a lighting. practice in Melbourne. I reckon you're going to learn a little bit more about me as we go through this podcast.
Speaker 1: Good stuff, mate. Now, before lighting design, though, you were in industrial design. Yes. So what at what point did and what drew you into lighting?
Speaker 2: I studied industrial design. That's a question. I would say that I was never drawn into lighting per se. As I said, I grew up in Dalesford and I'm probably going to start back there because even from a young age, did have, I was really interested in how to passion in creative endeavors, I guess, whether that was drawing or in Dalesford particularly. I lived with my mom and my sister in this little cottage in Dalesford, actually Hepburn Springs, and it backed onto some bushland. And I spent so much time in that bushland from the ages of probably 12 to 18. And I used to hang out there and I'd always come across these sort of strange discarded objects. They furniture, car parts, old bottles. ⁓ suitcases, there were so many suitcases out in the bush. don't know how they got there, but they were like little treasure item because you you'd open them up. You wouldn't know what you're going to find nearly every time. Adult magazines had ⁓ covers ripped off them. Anyway, it was those things kind of started up or were the catalyst actually for a strange hobby of mine. I used to lug those things back to our to our little cottage.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'll take them apart. I used to put them back together create these weird like, you know, assembly sculptures. think I called them back in the day. And I was so into sculpture that when I finished high school, I applied and I got into Victorian College of the Arts to sculpture. But then I came across this guy, Philip Stark. And obviously everyone him as a industrial designer.
Speaker 1: Alright.
Speaker 2: And he was designing such amazing things that I thought, you know what, maybe I should do industrial design. So I did that instead. And at the end of that course, there was about three unis that were providing industrial design as a course. So there's about 120 new industrial designers in Melbourne every year. And there was two advertised jobs. So for the next few years, like everyone else who studied industrial design, We had odd jobs, traveled, I traveled. And I came back and there this guy, Paul Beale, who had just started up a company called ElectroLite. And he was working out of a studio and a friend of mine who was working in that studio, shared studio space, mentioned to me that he was after someone just to help with some documentation. So that's how I got into industrial design, ⁓ sorry, into lighting design. And the more I was in it, the more I was learning about it, the more I started to, you know, get this real of satisfaction from undertaking these designs. And very much was equal parts, creativity and your and function. and that just kind of clicked with the way my brain worked. And that same sense of satisfaction is what I got from making those little sculptures at home. So once I to get that, that feel, I knew it was the right thing for me to do.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. So literally, you know, you know, I think most people fall into lighting somehow. And that's your, that was your gateway drug.
Speaker 2: I fell into it and yeah, it just kind of clicked what I enjoyed doing. I mean, before that and back at school, I didn't know that lighting design as a profession existed. I don't think many people know it exists now, but yeah, I absolutely love it.
Speaker 1: It's one of those things that meet somebody and what do you do? I'm a lighting designer. What's your answer? Because it's something a of people know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, I always preface it with architectural lighting designer because people just assume it's stage theatrical lighting, which it's not, not that type of scale. So yeah, I always just say I, I'm a lighting, architectural lighting designer. work with interiors, developers to come up lighting schemes that support the aspirations for their work. And I think that's we, ⁓ do. And then people
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Don't ask any more questions.
Speaker 1: But if they did, they'd discover the amazing projects we get to work on, Like you've worked on some phenomenal spaces and projects internationally even. we'll probably get into it later. But what are some of your favorites, like standout projects you've worked on and had the opportunity to
Speaker 2: It's a good question. The standout projects probably aren't based around, you I received or we received an amazing outcome on the project, although it's nice to see, but they're probably more projects where you've collaborated with, you know, a design team or, you know, ⁓ on project where everybody is of has the same aim and are open, you know, to getting there. And it's been a really kind of collaborative, creative So yeah, I could give you projects, but you probably wouldn't know them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't have to be like, it's this whiz bang building or this place. just that whole ticks every box. Felt good. You know, it's scratch that itch for you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: In fact, I'd say that the bigger the projects and the ones that sort of most people would recognize would be the ones that you you had to fight hardest for your ideas as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And was there a time when you, you know, started off 21 years ago and you were working with Paul. Was there a moment where you went, wow, I can really, I think I'm going to dig in here. This is, this is awesome. Like I can really see myself doing this for a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it was that moment where I started to feel that same sense of satisfaction from the work that I got from, you know, dabbling away at my sculptures. and when I used to do that back in Dalesford, I didn't do it to show anybody like, know, close family knew I did it. A few friends knew I did it. They just thought I was weird, you know? but now I get to, know, use light as a medium to, create these, ⁓ you know, beautiful ⁓ And I don't have to lug it through the bush, you know, so it went for me.
Speaker 1: and that learning curve, was, obviously you started doing little bits and pieces ⁓ then you have to learn the craft. And I mean, there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 2: There is a lot to learn and Paul, to his credit, threw me in the deep end very early and yeah, of forced me outside my comfort zone in all kinds of of lighting design. The technical stuff was stuff that I felt comfortable with. The ideas, coming up with the ideas I felt comfortable with at an early age. It was, it was all the other things that go into lighting design that perhaps I didn't feel so comfortable with. And that was, you presentations. was, project you know, all, all of those other things that are important. So, he, ⁓ literally was the face electrolyte. He was out there. He was charismatic. He was getting the work. He was cold calling. He was being rejected. was calling again. You know, it was impressive, but heartbreaking to be that one, cause I was the first employee to sit there, you know, sort of seeing how he And I've never had to have been in that situation either where you're, you know, just cold calling for work. ⁓ I'm glad I ⁓ been, I feel fortunate I haven't been, but you know, who knows how everything will pan out in this climate. ⁓ yeah, he threw me in the deep end.
Speaker 1: Yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I was the only employee for a little while there. And yeah, he just got me into coming out with ideas and, and helping him with the designs from a very early age, which was, which was really good mentoring.
Speaker 1: Yep. So just to clarify, light designer, you do light engine for people who don't know, but you have crossed over and designed light fittings as well in some projects.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I studied industrial design. I had a sort of base level skill, which could be adapted to light fitting design or light feature design. So yes, we, I was able to apply those skills. that was useful. and, I've, you know, been involved in customs on and over the last 21 years. yeah, they certainly their place, but that's not certainly not every project that that is, is undertaken.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you're the, now 21 years later, you're one of the directors at Electrolyte and you're also the head of design. Is there a lot of crossover? Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Head of design at the Melbourne studio. Just for everybody else, there is a Sydney studio and there's a San Francisco office as well. Yeah. That's an interesting story that because I was the first employee at Electrolyte 21 years ago. After about six years, Paul came to me and he said, I want you to oversee all the projects. And I said, okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's a bit of a change because we started off and you know, for those first few years, was a number of employees, that, at that time, but everybody was working in isolation. That on a project and you'd sort of work that project through and issue it. And the collaboration only came if the project was too big for one person. So I there was a desire. both aesthetically and also from a quality control perspective to have someone over said, so Paul said, yes, I want you to be that person. And I said, okay, does that mean I'm going to get paid some more money? No, I didn't. didn't say that. I never asked for that actually, but you know, he was good to me. Um, so I took on that role and then he said, Oh, I want you to come up with the name for your role, your title. I'm like, Oh, get to pick my own title. That's good. And I toured with a whole bunch of options. and, know, I was young and I was going out and I didn't take it quite as seriously as I probably should have. You know, I came up with like things like chief, know, lead, studio director, you know, the head job and, I tabled to partner at the time. And she said that she didn't think that having a business card with head job on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: would attract the right customers. was kind of merged all those into, I forgot my own title, ⁓ head of ⁓ and that was, that was the reason, cause that's what I was doing. I was kind of overseeing all the designs and I don't go by that title anymore. might be sort of leftover on the website to describe what I do in that role. And I do oversee all the projects that leave the Melbourne office at every stage that project milestone.
Speaker 1: Head of Design? Yeah.
Speaker 2: concept DD construction docs. So I still do that. then Paul, you left electrolyte Australia head over to the UK with his family. And at that time we got offered, I guess, the ⁓ option of, you taking over the reins and running the Melbourne offices. And I myself and Salisbury and Alicia Howard. We all became directors or think Don was already a director in the Sydney office, but we became directors. at that same time. I guess that role just brought with it, brought with it a, you know, more of a direction, people management side of which I enjoy. But first and you my design is passion. My training that I've had is, is enlightening and ⁓ that's my focus and passion. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yep. Yep. Do you do less of that? lifting these days?
Speaker 2: I still work on some of my sort of, you know, get involved in some of the hands-on stuff for projects. particularly the conceptual stuff at the start. ⁓ but there's a of, you know, ⁓ a bunch people that are working on multiple projects at any one time. So I kind of see myself more as an, an overseer, of all of the projects and.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: To tell you the truth, enjoy that. seeing, you know, what the, you know, talented group of people at our office ⁓ up with. and sometimes I need to kind of, you know, bump it a little bit to the side or whatever it might be, but, yeah, just make sure we're on track.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, good. that's probably the only thing with as go through the ranks and you can enjoy doing the design and that's the stuff that makes you feel good. When you to focus on something that's not great, you know, just maybe people manage, but you enjoy it. But you know, sometimes he's actually really want to design.
Speaker 2: still get my fair share of design in my work. ⁓ that's gets me up in the morning. That's why I fortunate and excited to go to work every day, because of the design, not because I'm a director.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you mentioned offices in Sydney and San Fran, big company. How do you, how does Electrolyte, how do you think Electrolyte does things differently to perhaps your competition or to other
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a question. think that at Electrolyte, we've always had a focus for being, you know, present with the projects we're working on and giving the consideration and the time and the thought that it needs. And if we that for every project, we usually get a pretty decent outcome. And through that method, been able to develop really amazing relationships with, like-minded clients. And we haven't really focused too much on what our competitors are doing. And I do keep eye out just whether it's on Instagram ⁓ or socials to what they're designing. And there's some amazing lighting designers around. And some the work they do is very inspiring, but we don't really let it influence us. ⁓ think we just focus on what we know we need to do and that's work for us. And, you we've managed to pick up some recognition through awards by doing as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you cross over much with the other officers? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sydney, yes. Whether it's a collaboration on a project or helping each with work as required. San Fran, less so. Their market's very different over there in the US. They have own team. They tend to do the things a little bit different in their way compared to us. When Melbourne and while we're both in Australia, Sydney is very different from Melbourne as well. both in a design style, I would say, and even how projects are run, it seems.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So when you're running a project, when you start a project, what's the process? We start with the architecture or you start with the concepts or how does it work? Can you just take us through how that might?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think with a lot of design industries, the process is pretty similar, whether it's architecture, interior or landscape. The most important thing of working on a project is getting a very clear understanding of the aspirations and the requirements of that project. Then you take all that information and you do some high level thinking, inspirational thinking to come up with ideas. Once those ideas are approved, you work out technical solutions try and achieve them and document and model that accordingly. doesn't regardless of project.
Speaker 1: When you come up with these amazing concepts and ideas and you go to present to a client you're super excited about it and they vary that equal is excited or they fall flat. How do you sort of cross that and sort of negotiating ⁓ a concept or how does that work?
Speaker 2: Well, I think the thing here is to not take any feedback. ⁓ by its very nature is subjective. Some people may love it. Most people might think it's a great idea. The client may not. And that's okay. You know, we're working for the client to try and meet the aspiration that they have for their project. And so we don't always nail it. I like to think that we always give it a lot of thought. And through that process, I think that
Speaker 1: Yeah sure.
Speaker 2: the options they generally well received and occasionally they're not but we always go into these presentations the first thing we say is this a concept we've come up with through lots of consideration but we're not precious and if don't like it just tell us because we don't want people thinking we don't want to you know step on their toes or we don't want you know make the relationship difficult
Speaker 1: Good and we'll move on.
Speaker 2: by being straight up, you know, clear, truthful. But it's always the best way and the easiest way.
Speaker 1: Is there sometimes when you have to push to because you know, it's hitting ⁓ codes and certain, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's like guys trust us, you know, it is enough light or, know, you don't want that there, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah there is. Yeah, There's a few instances. think one of them is that's been coming up lately is or clients, usually or interior designers actually, putting forward an interior that is of dark surfaces and telling us the client doesn't to have a moody space. ⁓ And so can we as lighting designers make it feel bright? Now we cannot do that. You know, the lighting supports the interior. If the interior inherently is moody, the lighting will make it a little bit less moody if you really pump a full of light. generally, ⁓ there is certain expectations that are not always physically possible. So yeah, and that's more just about the people we're working with trusting us a little bit that if we let them know that a dark space, even from a lighting perspective is going to feel moody. If they don't want that, they kind of need to look at the interior. Yeah. And then we can use lighting to support that. But yeah, they're, they're sort of difficult conversations or if we have to light a pool, for example, to a certain light level, but no one wants any lights over the pool because it's hard to maintain.
Speaker 1: finish.
Speaker 2: You know, once again, just a practically difficult challenge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, does it get easier like you do lot of repeat work and know those is it the trust grows and you do, know, 20 years of projects. ⁓
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And that's why you see it not just with us, but everybody has their, you know, consistent teammates that they work with, know, different companies pair together well, because they've built up that trust. And so I guess best clients that we work with, the clients that we have built up that trust with, and that they acknowledge it. And I they feel that we add value, which we believe we do. and are open to our ideas and those results are always the best.
Speaker 1: Yeah. If we were talking now, it's an architecture and interior design listening, are a couple of things, a couple of key points you can sort of say, here's some advice. Generally, we're not to use a diffuse light or something like that. Just something that you go to, a couple of gems for them.
Speaker 2: That is such a hard question, James, because the answer to that would be we have, you know, in our Melbourne office combined, you know, a hundred years experience, for example, you don't just have a couple of tidbits to pass out. So I would say, you know, if you want the lighting to have the same consideration as your own architecture, pay a professional and trust them. and work with them. I could say avoid down lights, avoid of lights, all those things, but sometimes they're appropriate. Not usually in the work we do, but every job different.
Speaker 1: That is thing, isn't it? You could give the same plan to, you know, three different lighting designers. Yeah. They'll all come up with something pretty cool. That's not necessarily right.
Speaker 2: I think maybe one, one tip if I had to give a tip would be color temperature. Ensure that the color temperature that you want supports the ambience that you're trying to achieve. That might be really warm, know, 2,400 Kelvin in a sexy bar, or it might be three and a half thousand neutral white in a hospital. but make sure you pair it because that color temperature has such a massive impact on the ambience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do little tours here and we make, I think that's the biggest thing when we sort of take it through some different color temperatures, talk about color rendering and ⁓ things are massive. It's such an impact on the project.
Speaker 2: technical and unless people see the difference with their own eyes, it's hard to imagine, you know, on paper, a color temperature of 85 CRI versus 95 CRI. It's like, hang on, the lower one's cheaper. I'll just go with that. Or actually let's understand what the difference is.
Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah, do do a lot of that. Do you mean clients you haven't we were new clients, you tend to go through that a little bit.
Speaker 2: We, in our conceptual sort of report that we put together for every project, we always identify the color of light that we would recommend. We don't get into the CRI too much unless it was something like a gallery and ultra important, but we do have our own minimum standards at ElectroLite. So we would never specify something under 80 and ideally it's 90 CRI. And for those of you who don't know what the hell we're talking about, CRI is color rendering index. And it's a value out of a hundred to determine how well the light that comes out of the light fitting represents a number of all different colors. So might find you, you know, a low CRI might make your red t-shirt look pink, for example. Yeah. So if you want to be true to color, go high CRI.
Speaker 1: Yep. They're the little gems we need, mate. They're the little gems. Yeah. And I think the one that, it's not unusual now, but dimming is, know, kind of people did dimming in a few areas, but these days it doesn't hurt to have a dimmer. Totally anywhere you can, because you can really change the mood very, very quickly. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I agree. Well, I think what we know as lighting designers and as, you know, just everybody else who goes outside, goes inside is ultimately the lighting doesn't have to be as bright at night. If you don't have dimming, you kind of need to pick, do I want it to look good at night or in the day? you have dimming, you can have it look perfect, you know, at all times. ⁓
Speaker 1: great lighting design. It kind of goes unnoticed if it's that good. You you walk through a space, you're not sure what you're feeling. There's something about it. And is that, you know, that's kind of what you want, right? That's the idea.
Speaker 2: 100%. If no one notices what we do, we've done our job. ⁓ yeah, an interesting one. mean, I wouldn't call it great lighting. I'd call it considered lighting myself. in my opinion, you know, the best outcome that we can hope for is to a where if somebody is within that space, they,
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: they can't really tell the difference between, you know, the architecture, interior, the lighting, it all kind of blurs and works together beautifully. And that might be lighting that, know, softly feature materials or textures, you know, to enhance the environment, the visual environment. I think lighting that is the opposite of terrible. Everybody notices that. It's true. observation I've had is nearly always the light fittings themselves that people comment on. Whereas the considered lighting or great lighting, you know, in a lot of cases, those light fittings aren't even noticeable. ⁓ least that's our approach in lot of instances.
Speaker 1: They disappear completely. They disappear. that you start off with trying do that, right? You are using direct light where you really, really need it in most cases, that fair?
Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. We have obviously layers of light. anything that is not needed to be seen, we try and conceal it from view.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess what we know is that, you know, lighting has the ability to influence how a person experiences a space. light does, not fittings. ⁓
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 2: Let's work with the light and try and hide the light fitting is I guess it's a philosophy that we've used for a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, unless I want a feature pendant and then that's becoming part of space and the architecture.
Speaker 2: Which James, yeah, you sell some beautiful pendants and we certainly wouldn't want to try and hide those. Exactly. Exactly. But all the stuff that is not meant to be seen, it's not necessary for it to be seen. Try and hide it. then you can focus on those beautiful feature pendants or wall lights or table lamps that you want to put in that are designed for people to see because they are beautiful objects.
Speaker 1: you. Yeah. So the end of the design, you've approved and the project gets commissioned and it's done. You offer the service and you go back later and you tweak and aim and commission the project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, normally it's not commissioned and done. Normally that is the part that we're involved with. So straight after this, have to head off, I have to go to a project, which is an office space where we worked on, know, common areas, breakout spaces, know, reception, first point of view for clients. So I have to go there. It's all installed. It's all working. I have to go there, set the dimming levels for every layer of light that we have in that space. pick the color temperature for all the tunable lights, check light levels where required and yeah, and bring it all together. And that process at end there compared to if you didn't do it, I would say adds, ⁓ you know, % of impact at the end. Like that is a stage you can not just say, you know what, let's just leave it at 100%, it will be okay.
Speaker 1: the client often come with you on that walkthrough or do you explain you're doing that? ⁓
Speaker 2: It's totally true. the client may turn up and may be there, often not. I often not is because it takes long time and they want hang around, you know? So it might be over a few days that we commission a project on a big project, a hotel, example, it might a week.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We're working through every space. We're sitting there with the program and we're grouping lights, we're dimming lights, we're having multiple scenes throughout the day and evening that automatically transition to create the best ambience for every daylight or nighttime scenario. And I don't think most clients want to sit through that. What we do say is that, us go away and set it. you go and have a look at it. If you, if you feel something needs tweaking, let us know and we'll come back and tweak that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you, I mean, I don't think a lot of people know that, you know, it doesn't just stop that the design you guys have done. This is the whole full circle, right? go, this is where the hidden service comes in. Nobody really knows that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not hidden in the fee, but outlined very clearly. There a couple of projects where we don't get involved in. You know, the final commissioning process, maybe we were asked to put on hourly rates and someone wants to save a few dollars at the end. And that's disappointing, but know, everyone to their own. ⁓ kind of depends on the project too. Like certain clients, like we're talking about earlier, if we have a relationship and a trust there, they'll always get us in because they know the importance and see the value. If a new client, particularly maybe designing a resi house, they might not engage us for that last process. ⁓ happened on occasion. That's I mean, we'd never see it to know any different, but yeah, we that it could be improved.
Speaker 1: Sometimes when you have an idea and you've got the concepts, a little bit of a leap of faith still, even with all your experience, you try and do a mock up and you try and, you like, there's always like, I hope this works.
Speaker 2: mean, there's from experience and we want sort of fall into a cookie cutter situation where we just reuse the same ideas, although when ideas do work well and it's appropriate, it makes sense to use them. But every project has bunch of new ideas and all new solutions to try and achieve those ideas. And I think you get to know from experience what does work and what doesn't. But yeah, there's always some, you know, little ideas in there that you're kind of keen to see how well they worked out. Going to site is what sort of proves it to you. And I'd say that out of the whole process, seeing it at the end is probably the biggest learning experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's right. And also the reward for you. You work sometimes months or years on a project. Yeah. You get to the end, like, you get to walk through it and that's, know, walking through your own work is pretty, pretty ⁓
Speaker 2: Yeah. pretty cool and I guess we're fortunate that because we just do lighting we are always working on a number of projects at any one time so it's not like you know an architect who might work on one project for six years know we're seeing our work completed you know lots of different jobs from you know small jobs of sculptures to houses to bars and some of the bigger projects every couple of years but we're always seeing some kind of finished results so you do get that reward. ⁓
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good. And as as bringing on new clients or, know, do you have, would you spearhead or would you give it to the team and say, Hey, who's excited to work on this project? know, it's like something exciting comes in.
Speaker 2: If we've already got the job. ⁓ well, guess that's part of the job that I have myself and Alicia at the Melbourne studio is that ⁓ delegate the workout to different stuff and all of our staff have different strengths. And so we often try and pair their strengths with the project that we think would do, you know, would be best suited to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.
Speaker 2: It's not just them working in isolation as well, you know, we kind of have multiple people on projects. I'm always involved in those projects. yeah, we certainly work to their strengths and and up the projects accordingly.
Speaker 1: We talked earlier about, you know, lighting design, you're casting luminaires and things like that. Is it something you and stray away from? you know, hopefully there's something out there or you enjoy it or, what's the process? This, I mean, it's ⁓ risky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ⁓ Well, that's it. just hit the nail on their head there. is the pro. The pro is you come up with a unique element that, you know, the client can say, check out this, you know, no one else has got this and maybe it adds an extra layer of, you know, or elevates the prestige of that project, which is great, but it does come at a risk. And that risk is around anything that is new, it hasn't been done before, hasn't been tried and tested, hasn't had months or years of R &D on it, that you don't always know exactly what you're going to get. Now you could, and that's through prototyping and things like that, but in this day and age with budget and time restraints, there's usually not enough prototypes to sort of... be 100 % certain of exactly what you're going to get. So you do take a little bit of a leap of faith depending on what it is. ⁓
Speaker 1: Yeah. think I it's so hard. What's your budget? And they don't really know how much lighting should cost. Yeah. So how do you have that conversation? mean, this, you could apply this to a lot of things, but lighting's hard because they've got a perception of lights. If they're not in the world of design, perception of light is it's 12 bucks from Bunnings, whatever.
Speaker 2: ⁓ huh. Yeah, it is absolutely. And when my friends have asked me for advice know, can you help me out with a down light or an LED strip or we of have the lowest or most economical light fittings that we would be comfortable using, be it for a friend or be it on a project, which in most cases is too much for, you know, the average and what they're willing to spend on their own home. You know, I'm about, you know, just normal people. ⁓
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you can look at a residential project pretty quickly and say, well, you know, just for the basic level of lighting here, it's going to be 30 grand. Very, very quickly. that can either go, that's not bad. Or they can go, well, yeah. ⁓
Speaker 2: That's right. Um, I think, um, the work that we typically do is working on higher end projects. I think there is an expectation almost maybe works the other way. Maybe if you put in a cost for a light fitting, if it's not enough, think, hang on, is that, it good? Why is it only, why is it only $20,000? Like, I want something that's $50,000 so I can show our friends, but not always.
Speaker 1: Yeah Let's catch. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's, you know, come up on occasion, but, um, that is the mentality sometimes of, of, of homes that are, you know, very high end. Um, but yeah, on a lot of jobs, we, put forward costs, with custom stuff, um, comparing it to say European products that are high end, the custom isn't necessarily, um, more expensive either. Even when you take our fee out of it, that we need to design it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: and when you're looking at large format type features, they really exist over a size. So if you want a big piece, it's probably going to be custom. If you want small piece, there's a thousand options out there already. but if you really want it to be unique, then you have to go down that route. But you know, with, with a lot things being made out of China these days.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure.
Speaker 2: for hotel, for example, you can get a custom wall light. There's 300 of them. They're not actually that expensive. One-offs are.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. Lighting designers. remember when I met you, it was near 20 years, basically we've known each other because I remember you literally just started at Electro Light and I was new in the game as well. And that whole what's a lighting designer, it's come a long way and it's I've seen it, you know, people know now and you know, the architects are more attuned to it. Have you seen the shift mate? it still a little bit? Why do we need a lightness on it?
Speaker 2: It certainly has shifted. I don't think it's shifted as much from when I first met you, when you used to wear the Looney Tunes ties.
Speaker 1: Never. Never.
Speaker 2: Socks. know, people change, lighting designers change, but the recognition, recognition, recognition of our industry certainly changed in the last 20 years. ⁓ add the point now where, you know, new projects, lot of, a lot of new projects, specify the requirement of having a lighting designer on the team. back then that not often the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: we're certainly recognized through that perspective. But if you talk to a lot of people, unless they're kind of big players, like, you know, big design firms, there's probably a misconception of what do in our industry.
Speaker 1: What is the misconception of what you do? What do think that is?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a, it's a, it's a difficult one because we have been around for a long time. We pride ourselves on having sort of creative and technical knowledge, but there's a lot of other people because the industry is unrecognized, not unrecognized. Um, what's the word? Unregistered. It's unregistered. Um, so there's a lot of people out there that. sort of say they're lighting designers, you know, a lot of sales, know, suppliers will say, we're designers. can provide a lighting design for that. and it kind of dilutes a little bit we do. but it is a requirement now for a lot of jobs to have lighting designers. and as a result, a lot of the big services firms now have a lighting design department, which means there's one person who does lighting.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: And they could be gun or they could be somebody who is quite junior, they still have a lighting design department so they can pick up some of these jobs. So a hard, hard to navigate, but I think a lot architects probably still don't know the difference between a sales rep doing a lighting design for them and an experienced lighting designer with education in that field, that process.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What's the of project you enjoy working on? What you sort of land these? Yes, ⁓ love ⁓
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, is a good question. And that is one of the perks of being a director. So I can delegate the stuff that, you know, doesn't interest me as much ⁓ to other people. ⁓ you know, I think as a new lighting designer, even like us has been around 21 ⁓ worked some amazing projects, we still get like run of the mill jobs, you know,
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know the good stuff is Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 2: car park here or, know, well, you know, um, but yeah, we still get some pretty standard jobs that probably don't have the budget or the need to come up with something too creative. They literally, know, people may just want a practical solution and yeah, that's not as exciting. Um, but you know, you kind of just have to try and see the positive in each job and still give it care and, and, know, build your relationships and, um,
Speaker 1: Cup Bugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, move on to the next one.
Speaker 1: the advance in for not lighting, but now AI concepts and all that sort of stuff. Have you thought it? Have you ⁓ gone down the hole yet? How's it impacting you?
Speaker 2: I mean, was a big topic, you know, six months ago, everywhere, you know, not just lighting, just talking about AI and sure, we're going to change the world. think any creative industry, I think that's, you know, obviously good for us that it's hard for AI to up with a solution where the solution differs every If it was a grid of downlights to meet a certain light level, great. So engineers watch out, when it's different every time, I think it's going to take a bit of time for ⁓ to, if it ever ⁓ of gets there. AI can certainly be used by us, ⁓ you for, for presentations, for visualizations, for coming up with, ⁓ you visualizations, ⁓ images. looked that a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There's some people in our Sydney office, they use it a little bit to images. I haven't found it amazing yet, I haven't, you know, delve too far. and I like doing my own visualization. So I kind of, ⁓ maybe secretly hope that maybe it's not there. I, I've stopped my delving for that reason.
Speaker 1: Yes. Good. And what about lighting technology? It's, you know, it was very, very slow at the start 20 years ago. It you know, we were stuck with, you know, metal halide and, you know, halogen in the last 20 years. It's just, it's just gone, you know, gangbusters and we're, you know, getting new releases every week. How do you keep up with that? And how does the team keep up with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. One thing that's come out of it is we don't keep catalogs anymore because they're out of date before we can use the light fittings. So, yeah, everyone uses the catalogs that we did have as computer stands, which we have to be mindful of when we have suppliers come in. Sometimes we have to switch out which catalogs we're using there. But yeah, we don't take on new catalogs anymore. We haven't specified a non-LED type of light fitting for over a decade. is LED. There's so many brands out there. I think it's just about through experience using the brands that have good support locally, that have good efficiencies, all the things that we would look into, good light fittings. ⁓ And you kind of, you have a handful of light fitting brands that you kind of go to. and you get updated on new releases and things that. if it was up to suppliers, we would have five in our office every day, you know, so we have to also limit who we see. Cause there's so much stuff out there, but I think you get pretty good at looking at websites.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: looking at brands and knowing whether they kind of what you do.
Speaker 1: well. Any advice for a young creative who might look at, who has never maybe considered lighting design? Something that you might say, have a look at it or check our website or something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a tricky one. mean, just like me, I didn't know it existed. And I am. Well, I'd say like you mentioned, you know, lighting is sort of equal parts art and science. if your brain's kind of wired that way and you like the challenge of, you know, problem solving, and sort of pairing it with the technical aspect. If your brain's wired that way, then, then check us out. ⁓ You might us a potential career path.
Speaker 1: Thanks If light could consistently make people feel one thing when they walked into one of your projects, what would it be?
Speaker 2: I'm going to answer that James, the most boring answer to finish off this part.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Cause I've thought of this type of scenario before. Um, and it's gotta be like comfort or, you know, thoughtful or whatever it might be. But the problem with that question is every job has a different aspiration for the lighting. And I wouldn't want to say I want the lighting to feel like subdued and sexy, like I would in a bar when you're walking into a hospital, you know, but you do want it to feel appropriate.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. show.
Speaker 2: for the expectation that you have on the environment that you're going. Bar, subdued and sexy. Restaurant, and warm. Hospital, cool uniform and sterile. Yeah, so there's no one.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. You say always want it to at least feel considered and...
Speaker 2: It always needs to be, it needs to feel considered. It needs to feel comfortable. Regardless of what ambience you're trying to create, it's usually around comfort supporting that, that So what a boring way to end that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because every special. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's fine, mate. It's I mean, it's also like, you go to a lot of places, you're out and that's ⁓ thing that you do. You're out, you're out lights. So, you know, you also always looking at this stuff.
Speaker 2: That's true. And that's probably one thing I would say to anyone who wants to get into the industry or considering it. If you become a lighting designer, you will never enjoy a meal in a restaurant again.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Jess, thanks so much, Thank you. Thanks for having on, mate. And yeah, we'll continue to work on maybe getting on again sometime. Awesome, mate. Thanks.
Speaker 2: So. Right. you.
