Episode 22: We Can Build Anything Now. That's the Problem

Paweł: Hello, welcome to another episode of Fired by Robot Podcast. My name is Pavel and with me as always is Ivars. Hello Ivers, how are you? How how are you doing today and what have you been up to last week?
Aivars: Hello, hi everyone. I don't know, for me it's like business as usual, building new features for applications, shipping updates, looking into analytics, guessing what to improve, you know, in the app developer's life as usual. Nothing interesting. What's going on your side?
Paweł: it's that's the same for me, kind of the same. I am trying to figure out what to do with with my life, and I'm saying that kind of junk jokingly, but that's kind of the truth. I am like still figure out figuring out the automation stuff. Should I do some more work on app work, but like Out of 50 or 60 things I like jobs on upwork, for example, I applied to. I I didn't get almost an anything and I paid for some of them. fortunately, I have been the inbound from upwork worked worked out for me because somebody like bought a project and I've earned some money. there in in September but yeah right now trying to figure that out I I I I'm like kind of thinking trying to think what would be the the actual product I I could build and and make make some money with it maybe is there a SAS I can do like this? I I has I started recently thinking, maybe is there another app I can do? I was start I started thinking, should I buy build a new app? Because I've Closed, I think I closed and run 10 plus apps last two weeks. I've just deleted them from the app store and now I'm I have kind of clean space and I have three or four that are earning money that are decent and thinking my way ahead. Are you thinking about building new new apps, maybe?
Aivars: do, I do, you know, because building nowadays is so easy and it's so fast to get from ideas to the kind of real product, but I don't know, it's kind of getting into that. Currently it's more like about choosing what to say no to, you can build so many new features to existing products and that can be kind of bad for the product because it will be overloaded with features that not that many users are using. So I kind of. trying to slow myself down working on existing apps, just do not adding more features because I can, and trying to kind of figure out, what exactly should I build? Maybe some smaller features move slower and kind of test the feedback from the users. And about new applications. Yeah, it's know, I was thinking about that teleprompter application for iPhone Duo and luckily I was able to pass that today to you that you can implement
Paweł: Mm-hmm.
Aivars: that feature into your teleprompter app and I didn't build it. Then I was thinking about like note taking application for iPhone Duo and iPad and also I didn't build it and I'm kind of probably, I don't know, probably happy about that but I still kind of thinking about that. Because there are so many not taking applications already and I don't know what is the way to basically to win the market, to get downloads and so on. I don't know. I just know that I have idea in the mind which I would like to build and luckily I don't have iPhone Duo. Otherwise I'm almost certain that I will build that application. So I want to build new applications. Because building is that's basically building building products and launching them is why I got into this kind of indie app development. But I'm slowing trying to slow myself down to do not build, you know, another application that no one will use. So that's my fighting with myself. Instead of that, I instead of building kind of fast, I like prototype it three different kind of simple like screen simple cards for my Rider log application and I basically shared them as a story on Instagram and asked my followers basically, okay, which one you like the best, know, and I waited for the votes from the audience and then implemented the one which was winning one, you know, kind of, I'm kind of doing kind of good job, slowing myself
Paweł: Ha ha.
Aivars: down. So that's my kind of current state with not building, not.
Paweł: I voted. I voted on I saw I saw your Insta story and I voted. and I think my vote
Aivars: No, thank you.
Paweł: went to the the the one that actually had the highest amount of people, the I think the second one you've had. Yeah,
Aivars: Yeah, that was clear winner, yes.
Paweł: I thought okay, b the the the s the first and third was looking nice, but it at first glance you wouldn't know what what the d doodle is about,
Aivars: Yes.
Paweł: And yeah, but but with the the middle one had the kilometers and etc. So that was kind of cool. Yeah I I I I think like for the past I don't know since I think August or or something like that, I've been slowing myself down kind of because of the frenzy I've I started Building maniac this year. I build multiple different apps and I wanted to like see the path where I should go and kill like clear out the what's most the direction I'm going to r next. And yeah, for the teleprompter apps, I it's actually my first app that I have support for iPhone Duo and thanks to claude using my open ai images we I created great screens Claude created awesome video for to showcase that we have iPhone Duo support right now and And yeah, my main app has been already in the App Store for around a year right now, and I have an a new version prepared for like two months already and added recently to that new version support for iPhone Duo, but I'm kind of still hesitant, but I looked through the data on what people actually how people actually use my app and actually was inspired by another email I get from feedback thread. I I get I have it implemented in my app and and fortunately I have more and more more people actually submitting submitting some feedback and I have a really good one feedback. through there somebody reached out to me on linkedin to to give me some feedback i received ton more and more comments on app store for with feedback so i i just think it's like it's a matter of like time yes of course thorough those apps are viral apps viral apps can be made and built multiple like hundreds of thousands of revenue per month if you have the like the proper structure of marketing but like I think this kind of app I I am I have the V Notes app like it's kind of will take some time it's not a viral app idea it's good it's not a viral app idea but I I think I I will keep on iterating over it and we'll see where I can take it right now I I am I actually started another Instagram channel for for this and right now I'm just doing out automate reels with Instagram channel we'll see if if that will help me. I I don't know if if if that I'm just want I'm just testing different kind of ideas for automated content generation. we we we will see it's kind of inter this kind of topic interests me and what I want to say that I see you have a a some similar approach because you you you know like okay I know I can build tons of stuff right now but what what's What to build is now more important than ever. And I've been actually asking myself this question the past two weeks, and I haven't figured out yet what what I could build. I have a few ideas. I have a few ideas for some kind of agent agents related to. for example, like full app management apps like managing your app. I have kind of some of those arc architecture, but in general having an agent that's like your app manager, like reading reviews, reading comments, reading feedback on feedback thread for example, responding to comments, responding to customer email and also being connected to for example sentry which is giving you errors and then you like have automated agents create fixes for whatever is is there that's kind of That's setup I I'm I have kind of right now. It's not fully ready. But is that a product? I don't think it's it is because I I I think like building kind of this kind of SAS and product, which is basically a product for other programmers to use. I I think that's not not the right direction because everyone can build their own and programmers usually will so I am thinking okay yes I'm thinking there is posties right now sharing new and new heights of MRR this app is getting everywhere but this kind of app this SAS is like yes agent first but it's it does something like tons of people are using like the deploying content to everywhere, and that's something that people not in software won't build because it's kind of difficult to set this all up, it I think. So it's kind of interesting where my mind is going, okay. I I I'm pretty sure I don't want to build anything for other programmers, but maybe there's something I I I can find that other people will like people outside our industry will want to have. And that's where my direction mind is going, but I I still haven't figured out. There like there are
Aivars: Mmm. No.
Paweł: more multiple different ideas.
Aivars: That's interesting topic because so multiple things that you mentioned here, the viral app thing, know, that happens once in a while, on, you see like viral posts on X and so on that, I build application in the weekend and that makes X amount of money. So first of all, we don't know is it true or not, but even if it is true, just that's anyways, those are outliers, you know, that's like out of the normal. You cannot like, build business like expecting on that. Yeah, sure, you can buy those lottery tickets, you can build multiple applications and hope that one will go viral and try to copy viral techniques to do that and maybe you will succeed with that. But also there's possibility that Apple will just block your account in the process because of spamming App Store with half-baked app ideas, know, that's also possibility. So that's not like the best like business recipe for getting successful in the... developers, that's one of possibilities, but it's not that easy. Building products for other developers, I will agree with you. I don't think that's a good idea. And I can tell that from position of someone who builds products like FeedbackTrade, right? So I'm using it for myself. I'm happy to have it and I will keep using it and supporting it. But is it a business? I don't know. I think if you are like, if you have... huge following on socials like developers like, you know, if you're on the level of Prima Green or like Teo, who is basically kind of creating content for developers. Yeah, Teo for example, how that T3 whatever it is, some kind of agentic workflow. I don't even know what it is. I didn't test it, but I heard about it, you know? So just because so many people talking about that. So if you have that big following, maybe that makes sense to build like product for other developers. But if you are something like us, like a regular indie developer, it's kind of tricky because if we are looking on our own kind of behavior, so I built this tool for myself, right? I didn't go and buy another tool which could do almost like that, but not exactly, you know? So I built this tool. If you're looking again on socials, for example, level silo. He's just posting, I basically canceled all my subscriptions. I built custom products for everything that I need. And many developers are following that example, So therefore I think that it's very tricky to make money in that niche. If you have big following like Level C low, low and so on, maybe. If not, then... Another options are better and what are the other options in my opinion currently it is just to try to grow slowly product in which you believe, if you build some product and you see, okay, this product maybe how kind of flakes and it can grow and so on for you, you have with nodes, maybe as a rapid as and so on, you can basically work on it and grow it relatively slowly. In my case, I think that's Probably that's writer application for now. I'm not dropping it yet. It's not like success from business perspective And I will basically kind of keep pushing it for a while and yeah That's basically this kind of slow building also kind of doing marketing and trying to kind of get Connected with your kind of target audience what I was thinking lately I was thinking okay, maybe It's kind of tricky to go to the Facebook growths and what else not and Reddit growths and promote your application. But if you really believe in that today and you see that there is audience, you can basically just start to build like community around this application. That's not fast kind of process, but that's possibility. And that's something that I'm thinking about. I didn't decide anything yet, but I'm thinking about possibilities. So one of them could be. just to build community, for example, school or community or Facebook community, what else, not for people who have similar interests that your application is solving and just basically kind of to try to talk about that. In my case, that could be kind of riding motorcycles and kind of talking about related problems and so on. And that could give you like insights what products to build and so on. So... I think that's probably is way to go now because if you kind of have this connection with your target audience, then you are not so scared from another copycat which will come and copy your application and will outperform you in marketing and so on. And yeah, I think that's basically way how indie developers can build their products.
Paweł: I I think you you're right. definitely you're right. like for for me right now it's I know like we live right now in actual actual golden era of mobile apps and in terms of like being able to earn money from it and it's hard to because there's like tons of competition. I think the brain got brain rod guy has been interviewed like last week this week I think on Monday or or Sunday with some with one of the the the the the the starter story or it's the super no the super what's the
Aivars: Yeah, it was, I think, that starter story. I have it open in one tab, but I didn't watch it. yeah, just
Paweł: there there's the other podcast, Super Wild Podcast. I didn't watch it too.
Aivars: for summary, it's like screen blocking, screen time blocking application, and this guy basically built it from 10k in a month to 400k in a month. That was basically in the title of the video, but I didn't watch it yet. Yeah, keep going, sorry.
Paweł: Okay, I I didn't know. okay, it's crazy. I didn't know he has been so successful. I think I'll I've been following this guy whenever he was even below tenk. I think he he got really successful with this one. So yeah, that's actually really crazy. what I wanted to say like
Aivars: His growing recipe was relatively simple. He was basically just posting on Instagram every day for something like 500 days or more, more than a year in a row. He
Paweł: Yeah.
Aivars: basically just posted and shared his kind of building story and that got him to this 10K plus. I remember he was on something like 30,000 in a month already. And then he basically just disappeared from Instagram, out and... And also at that level of income, you already can just start to use like paid traffic. You don't need to create content. You can just kind of use ads.
Paweł: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, you're you're right. what I wanted to say that what was on my on that topic, I f I saw on saw on X somebody posted about this episode and then somebody else commented on the episode. I wonder how many copy cuts they were after today's episode aired, and the creator of this brain road application. basically shared a screenshot with twenty five or more copy cuts with almost the same icon and it's it's crazy because everyone
Aivars: crazy.
Paweł: wants to be like like like that and it was i i i it happened way earlier than than than this episode aired but That's what I meant. there's tons of competitions whenever you have a great idea. it it can matter if that's original idea and you have some kind of distribution, so you can yes, you can solidify yourself, but the copy cats will try to copy every feature, every screen, and everything from you just to like trying try to you you know take your success and and for me like yeah the this this is kind of hard and right now this make me makes me not want to think about building mobile apps although it's as I said it's like a golden era right now because tons of people earning money for mobile apps and if you have nail distribution it's it's the way to go but right now i'm I like it it's so hard for me to think about a mobile app because like everybody you you they they can see you get clip get copied either way but on the other way around i i don't have an idea for building a sas either right now i recently resigned from like building my my other sas to create like generate clips etc so I don't know where to go with it. I wanted to to say that like I agreed what you said. yes, you can build something around community, and that's actually really important to build something around the community. and play build something fun. More and more people are building games, and there are abundance of games coming out and on Steam, people earn money on Steam. with games I don't know if you heard about it but it was went viral. I don't know a few weeks ago there's a game Hood Warfare where like developers just basically made a a game like which got some funny dialogue it was like set up in I think poor poor suburbs of somewhere in the US and basically they earned like one million or two million dollars pretty fast I I would say and because it went viral the app the game idea went pretty viral and I think like like my my mind is going okay maybe maybe I want to build a game kind of game because right now like I am I I know I like I'm thinking about ideas that can't be cloned in one or two days. You know what kind of ideas are those? Like, yes, you can clone my core of my VNOTes app idea in like two days. I I believe you can do that two to three days. you can clone the core, but the the systems I have built are the reliability of the systems and The the the back end, the whole back end I have, which is like okay, first transcribe this way, if we can not use this, etc. That takes a little bit of time, but that's not resilient enough. But if you have a great idea, you have a passion for a project, you have maybe a community, and you know a lot about that, I think you can like build something For example, a game is yes, you it can be the game can be cloned, but like you can't clone the di I our direction that works. What I mean by that, like I I started for example, I started a build building one kind of roguelike game last week. I started building just and it it's based on a 2D game name tibia and tibia is a game i main i played like all almost my whole life it was very popular in pollut at some point in in the early internal days and i play it sometimes i like came back to playing that game like in 2020 quite more than Done in the previous 10 years basically. After 10 years of break, I I I played some. And I burned burned out of basically I don't want to do that anymore because yeah it was fun, but it's like it's mm MMO type of game, and it it takes so much time to like gain levels and you spend so much time into like progress character. And basically the game loop has never yes, you can do a little bit different things, but you in generally it's around killing mobs. But I started build and I kind of like the tibia team, etc. And I I thought okay, what kind of I want to try to have built where there is no setback because when you die in the tibia game you lost your your la your store time basically so that's for me like kind of deal breaker right now as an old older guy who doesn't have time to like regain the levels back you just basically spend two times and the internet break two two three hours internet breaks off for you and you lost that time basically because some mob kill killed you that's for me a deal breaker right now because I don't have that much that time to spend. I don't want to spend that time. But so I started building this kind of rogue. I won't get I won't play I won't earn any money out of this but I kind of like that this kind of roguelike game in ta in in this kind of style of 2D game and when I go in and play like 30 minutes, fif fift fifth 15 minutes, 30 minutes. I have some fun and I I switch and I'm building that in browser and switch it off and and that's it. I'm I have a few streamer friends that stream that TBA game. I will share that with them if they like it. The the people will maybe play it whenever it's ready. But what I want to say, like this is a product, it it takes knowledge and direction. yes you can clone it of course but it takes knowledge and direction and time to actually to actually build build that game so that's cannot be that that kind of thing cannot be cloned so fast that's that was my whole point I wanted to make there are products
Aivars: I see that TBA game, for example, that's 28 years of investment already in that game. Yeah, sure, you cannot clone out the kind of experience and knowledge.
Paweł: Yeah.
Aivars: And I think, yeah, if you are going kind of... But that's basically also similar to... If you are going kind of deeper with kind of building context, contact with your kind of... target audience, building community and so on, you also cannot clone and copy that. But I don't know, I hope that Apple and Google kind of keeping an eye still on App Store and fighting with those kind of copycats and they do. And the life of copycat is not that easy as well, you know. Because if you try to kind of step in shoes of copycat, imagine you don't have originally there. You're just running around and looking for successful applications and then you are kind of trying just to copy it for like screen by screen without really understanding why this button is in red color, why that function works like that, why this screen have all those kind of, I don't know, that information and so on. You do not really understand, you just run and copy. All the successful applications, releasing them in the app store and then complaining that you are not getting downloads and not getting sales and so on. That's life of your average copycat. Yeah, probably there are part of them who are smart and basically kind of okay, kind of analyze and basically steal ideas which are working and iterate on them and basically making better product and so on. That's not that fire competition, but they have original ideas, vision and so on. Those are... I think those copycats are kind of dangerous, but that's not like your average copycats. They are just more like looking on already tested and working solutions and kind of building their own kind of take on them. And you cannot avoid them, whatever you build, you You just should kind of keep moving because at the moment when you stop, you will be overtaken by other players in the market. It's not like, early App Store where it was really hard to build applications and there was no developers. Currently it's easy peasy. Building is easy. There are
Paweł: Yeah.
Aivars: plenty of indie developers who are hungry and want to make any money from the App Store. So the time is over.
Paweł: Yeah, yeah, the you you are right. And that's why it's so hard right now on the on the developers. You can still I I like I see some like I I follow some app store accounts where there are like basically sharing data for popular apps, viral apps, and I and I think about them how how did they think about this kind of idea? There are so many ki variations of what's kind of popular right now and and like i i it it's it requires that thinking time, it requires that that innovation in my opinion like you could like there are few few few the the developer accounts that went that are kind of popular with kind of niche app ideas. yeah but it's kind of hard to like without the the correct distribution we without having that structure knowing how to build it and I I've been studying the distribution channels of other successful applications and I actually cannot I don't know how people are doing that because like I've been trying to reach out to influencers and I've been doing that for a couple of months, and mostly people are are saying crazy kind of rates, you know, for for just regular influencers that has that aren't that popular and yeah but i i will see we'll we'll see how how that my content automation thing will go. right now I have worse results than I had when I started in August for my one idea for my one account but I started another account and I actually had it's funny because i had more success in my second account than with and my automated kind of ugc videos than i have had with a company i hired that specifically them to do so And basically lost my money. we we did invest in in that and it didn't work out. that's fine. I I've spent like for I spent ton of money on Google Ads. last month I've cranked up a little bit of money to Google Ads. And I lowered it down because there were weren't the results I wanted to have. basically right now that my Vidnotes app is currently like in this kind of area where it like it prepares to take off, but hopefully, but it it kind of linger for a third month, I think, like around 200 two two point five K MR right now and I'm I'm I'm thinking okay it's been like this for a while right now and I'm wondering what I what I can do right now to grow it even more. we I I think pausing a little bit on Google ads and more I I'll try investing more money into Apple ads right now. And we'll see because Apple apps converts better basically iOS users converts way better, but in ja I don't want to leave out Google ads because they bring web users and web users kind of use credit system like from for the VidNotes app to like transcribe the videos and Yeah, it it's interesting topic what to build right now, but have you seen like for copycats specific specifically? I think there has been like quite popular on on X for the past two weeks. I saw multiple people has been like banned basically by Apple. Their apps has been deleted. have you read something about it or not really?
Aivars: I saw a few cases, yes, that, my account is banned, I did nothing wrong, but yeah. I don't know, I took a more detailed look in one of those posts and it wasn't looking like I did nothing wrong. was, there was clearly Apple asked for that specific case, Apple clearly asked to change metadata. And that developer just tried to kind of get around that. And in that case, that specific case, the developer basically decided, okay, you know what? I will not release that update, but I will keep my old metadata. And surprise, surprise, sometime later, Apple just banned the account. And yeah. because when you submit up for review, sometimes Apple is basically, you may be submit whatever, some small minor update, but Apple asking, by the way, you should change your app name because it's trademark or by the way, your kind of keywords are not great, know, or misleading, what else not, you know? And from that description that I saw about that specific expose, that was the case, you know? And if basically just give up on that update and... keep the existing application in the app store, you don't need to change metadata, app name and keywords and so on, smart, right? Doesn't work. Yeah,
Paweł: Does it doesn't work?
Aivars: I totally understand there are probably there are many cases where those banned accounts are unfair. I remember that Victor Sevailov was banned from app store and it was looking like. He's not really he really didn't do anything specific, but somehow his old account was related to something else and that was kind of gray area and he basically just restarted everything, started new account and now he's back to 100K something in revenue in a month and everything is good. So it happens. Lately that happens more often than before. Yeah.
Paweł: Yeah, and I think V Victor and the other like guys who I look up to in terms of App Store, they they kind of have investigated most of them or the the issues people like came up with and none of those guys not a single one of those guys said They have found actually innocent people, you know? So
Aivars: Hmm.
Paweł: it seems like well, either people don't understand or they kind of don't want to understand correct App Store policy because they want to be in that gray area where you can slide until you get sucked by Apple, and that's at some point I I got this kind of email from Apple legal, something like that. It was like I don't know, one year plus ago. I don't remember exactly. but I've got the email and in general I used in one what my my Cold Smith application, which is called Plunge and etc. called shower tracking application, kind of cool app. and added some breeding exercises there. But in general I had keywords that were trademarked. And that was back then it was my main strategy to grow this app, use this discreet keyword. And it worked because like worked kind of worked because it wasn't like high but
Aivars: Hmm.
Paweł: this kind of got got me to I don't know three hundred, four hundred MR, I don't remember, but whenever I needed to remove it, I I w like I start stopped basically I stopped being listing for that keywords and now I don't have too much downloads. The app is actually I think it's kind of good and polished still. Like I haven't updated it for a while, but yeah it it's not it's not right now basically it's it it it's not available to be tracked to to to to to rank anywhere and I I don't know what to what will happen with that but I listened. I listened when I got the email. So hopefully
Aivars: Mm.
Paweł: they won't terminate my Apple account. we'll see we'll see how that will go. but yeah, that's why I'm like kind of thinking about the going elsewhere with my with my time, otherwise other than App Store. But yeah that's that's the case.
Aivars: I had in my portfolio when Arc Raider's game was on peak of popularity, I basically built companion game for it. And I wanted to have Arc Raider somewhere in the app name, in the subtitle somewhere, but Apple basically kind of rejected the application and said, no, it's basically trademark. And even when I changed the name and I had a specific image very similar to not similar, not like game art, but recognizable, something from game, it was basically rejected for that reason as well. And it's kind of tricky because previously Apple was more chill about that because I had like CrossFit timer for years in the App Store. And it was something like timer for CrossFit, know? And if you did something like for CrossFit for Instagram and so on, Apple was kind of chill. But with this latest application that I had, was like trademark in the name, I had something like companion for Arc Raider, something like that, companion for Arc Raider, something like that in Zap name. I don't even remember specifically, but Apple immediately said, it will not work. They just basically didn't allow. And I think previously it was maybe good idea to jump on something popular going on online. For example, there was when ChudGPT introduced it like video generation, there was plenty of applications which basically did like something like that, know, in the, what was it? Something like Sanyo, Silio, whatever, something on S. in the name. There was plenty of apps with that similar name in the app name. And so that's not a good strategy anymore. So yeah, I basically just retired my application already. It was in the app store. It was growing on beginning when I was playing around with those kind of popular keywords, in the keywords and so on, but lately I decided, you know what, it doesn't worth the risk to be unliked by Apple, the review team, so I just killed that application. Because it wasn't monetized anyways. I was thinking I will do, I will grow it, but running into those obstacles, I decided, you know what, it doesn't make sense to kind of keep pushing this application.
Paweł: Yeah, yeah, I I think right now it's kind of like yes, we we live in abundance of intelligence and right now it like that kind of intelligence that you you can use to build stuff is is kind of is awesome because you can solve any problem, personal problem you have with software. There has been so many great people great things people were doing with with with software. I have been seeing more and more updates about this Omachi and being able to actually have iOS building inside Omachi, which is kind of crazy for me.
Aivars: Hmm, really?
Paweł: You can switch to Linux and test the apps there. I don't know how they do it. I I didn't like in look into it, but there are people like who like you said, the Velcro have like got rid almost all of got rid of any of subscription that he he has, which is crazy. I'm trying to like I I'm I myself optimize the one. one of my apps where I got rid of one transcription service that basically was fifty percent of my cost for transcription, which is good and but that that's like thinking thinking I I think it has more value right now, you know than it than it was because like that copy cutting stuff was a was kind of good strategy last year when you had like decent decent coding tools you that speed up your workflow you you right now you can give code your agent coding task in it it will build it last year it wasn't like that you you just you needed a little bit more more knowledge in order to build it so Copy cutting strategy was good. It was actually decent cop strategy to try for. And yeah, I I I tried that. out of it, I have a VidNotes app. That's it. That's what I managed to build last year. that that keep so I keep on upgrading it, but in general, right now it's not a great strategy. It's it's time for I think. you you need we need to like fo focus but we've talked for an hour and actually we didn't get to one topic. and i really love it because i think we we were due to this discussion episode about how how our how is our field but i wanted to ask you because i know you had some opinions on new mac books and i think we we should spend a few minutes on at least on this topic there are new macbooks with touch screen and immediately Steve Jobs in two thousand ten said that's a really bad idea and I agree with them back then, but right now, is it good to have two touch bar touch screen MacBook in two thousand twenty six?
Aivars: Back in 2010, Steve Jobs says that touch screens are great for interesting demo, but not handy for usage on the laptops. Because touch screens works better on like horizontal screens when you have something like surface like that, know, and not like vertical on the laptop. And you know, And I think that still is true. It's kind of interesting demo, but I was looking onto those videos that hands-on experience when people were kind of touching the screens, like to browse like timeline on the Final Cut Pro, for example, or like use simulator on the screen. It's still kind of shaky. It's not stable. it even in this demo doesn't look great. I can't care less about touch screen on the MacBook Pro. All the screens are different thing, you know. That's better screen. Yeah, nice. Sure. I would like to have that in my MacBook. Am I going to upgrade? No, I'm happy that I don't need to upgrade because looking on current prices of those MacBooks, I'm happy that my M3 Macs still can handle. development job and after hearing you that Omachi may be used for iOS app development, I don't know how, but I will basically take a look into that. It kind of makes it even more interesting because I will be happy to have like more simulators running and testing all the applications that I have. So no, I'm not interested in that. Why Apple did that, to be honest? I don't know, probably market pressure and that's probably new applications are trying new things. okay, we got foldable phones. Last year we got this iPhone Air. This year we got MacBook with touch screen. Who know what will come next, you know? But it's good to see that Apple is doing new things and trying new things because like your regular iPhone, It's really mature product already, you know. From year to year there is not that much is changing. Yeah, there is like whatever, there's cooling chamber inside, all that good new tech. It's good, but basically it's the same old iPhone, know. Little bit better every year. So I'm happy to see them trying new things.
Paweł: Yeah, I I agree with that last sentence. I'm happy to see them trying new things because we haven't had any like actual innovation from Apple for for for some times, since I don't know, AirPods. because I I I won't count.
Aivars: Apple Vision Pro.
Paweł: I I won't count that brother because it was a flop flop, especially
Aivars: Yeah.
Paweł: when you have like meta glasses which look decent and like
Aivars: Hmm.
Paweł: are actually useful. I I thought about buying those because but they are illegal right now so I'm I'm pausing right now and yeah I I I think I wrote a tweet tweet on on that topic like I think they there are a few cool uses use cases to have the touch screen on MacBook and One cool use case is actually to test your app or you know in simulator by by whenever you when you are in the app developer you can touch test your app on screen like on the phone, but
Aivars: I don't see how it's different testing it using mouse, to be honest.
Paweł: Yeah, exactly. I don't see myself sitting there and like like smearing around that that screen because I I don't know. In my opinion, this is the next touch bar basically. They introduced the touch bar, which was very janky and really bad in general.
Aivars: I will say that I liked Touch Bar better than Touch Screen. Touch Bar wasn't that bad,
Paweł: Yes.
Aivars: you know? I will say that my like, Afro is kind of rarely used. Yeah, there are a few shortcuts like made screen brighter and darker or control sound and it was kind of more interesting.
Paweł: But those were look this th those were working great on touch bar touch bar.
Aivars: Exactly, and that's basically the main cases what I am that's basically mine use case for a fro for for me on my laptop and those were working great on the touch bar and also there was Option to use other kind of things and it was looking cool as well, you know, but touch screen I don't because I do not see a single use case Yeah, probably there are some edge cases where you can see that. yeah, that's actually great but If you are talking about testing applications, yeah, sure, you swipe, similarly like you swipe your phone, but you can do that with mouse as well. And it will not replace your tests on the phone. Because to test on the phone, you need to really have it in your hand and then you kind of realize, actually I cannot reach that button up here. It's actually more useful if it is somewhere in the middle or on the bottom of the screen. If you are testing that on simulator, you don't have that like app. real feeling like on real phone. Only things that you have those swipe actions, maybe something else, but it's not replacing tests on the real device. And you can do those swipes and what else not, multiple finger gestures even as well on simulator already, just using keys and mouse and what else not. Yeah, kind of
Paweł: Yeah, I think
Aivars: nice to have, but I don't think I will use it, you know.
Paweł: Yeah, I I'm not like my MacBook is like under my desk right now. It's
Aivars: Hmm.
Paweł: mounted in inside basically a drawer kind of to my desk and it it lives under there. I I I I don't use it so I definitely won't be using a touch screen. And yeah, in terms of upgrading right now I've been talking about upgrading for six months already. I think I still haven't upgraded anything. And I I don't know because I I recently like realized okay, I I had my VPS set up. for running agents in the cloud and right now when i slow down a little bit with craziness all all the clay craziness building that i i wind everything down and basically i'm getting rid that of getting rid of that vps boy because i've decided okay i can even buy some kind of It's very simple Linux box I have I can have on my desk, and basically the same if I can make it pay pay off have have that on my desk and have it forever. in a year, it's it's paid for the same amount I would use the VPS for. So that's my thinking right now. I'm probably I don't know because I'm I would buy already Mac Studio, a new Mac Studio, but I kind of am hesitant because I kind of want that have that MacBook just in case I I like I need to move and work elsewhere and I like I cannot take my monitor with me. in general i'm definitely not seeing myself buying the touch screen macbook pro so i potentially If I'm upgrading to a newer MacBook, I I will probably buy buy Mac Studio. I I'm not sure yet, but that's probably what's going to happen. And maybe new MacBook in a couple of years because I think they will this the same situation will happen. They released the touch screen MacBook. And it it tau the touch bar mag and after a few years they got rid of it, or two years, I don't remember. And that I f I believe the same will happen with with those ones.
Aivars: Yeah, I don't know what is the future. I know that there are plenty of like Windows laptops with touchscreens. I don't know. You know, if they will kind of keep involving that product and we will get into the something like, know, for example, that MacBook Neo, right? It has like... cheaper cheap and so on and touchscreen probably is too expensive for it. But if we are talking about something like ultra light laptop, which can be like a tablet as well, that could be a case, you know, when you kind of flip the screen around and basically kind of how like, whatever, when you kind of open just screens and it is like a tablet and when you use it like laptop, it's more like laptop, but it's basically iPad. You know with magic keyboard,
Paweł: Yeah.
Aivars: so I don't know where they are going with this idea I would like to have product
Paweł: Do you think there
Aivars: like that. I would like to have product like that, but I Don't know am I ready to pay anything extra for it. No not at all We'll see I don't think they will kill that touch screen on laptops some super fast, I think it will be here around for multiple years and then we will see what will happen with them. But if there is no other kind of future, like future ideas, like whatever they have in mind for this product, if it is just as it is released today, like MacBook with touch screens, then I don't know, it's kind of. Maybe our kids is target audience for that product, Maybe we are too old to swipe fingers on the laptop screen. I don't know, maybe.
Paweł: Maybe, but yes, maybe that's that's true. But there are not too many kids are being born right now. So that's I don't think that's a right strategy. You should I think they should want to squeeze out us more and
Aivars: Maybe.
Paweł: with a better products. I don't know. I I think like right now Do you think they are building this kind of thing to unify the Mac OS and iOS and iPad OS system or or not really?
Aivars: Well, they said multiple times that iPad OS will stay for iPads and they are not merging those products, but we also saw the video clips with Steve Jobs saying that no touchscreen on MacBook, right? So I think that's moving in that direction, because iPad is around for so many years, processors are super powerful, M1, M5, what else not, But there are not that many pro applications. I'm using iPad from 2018 and it's basically doing all that iPad can do for me. I can use cloud, can use codecs, can basically whatever, take notes, all those kind of simple tasks and there are no real pro applications. Okay, you can find examples, is whatever. DaVinci Resolve for iPad, but who really using? Everyone who using DaVinci Resolve have a MacBook, know, or Mac Studio, what else not. So the point is there are no real use case in real life for pro iPads and kind of merging those products in some future could make sense. Yeah, I think it's possible.
Paweł: Yeah, it's interesting topic. I don't I don't know where where where this is ever everything is going. I I feel like a couple more years of phones and we like yes may I I don't see phones disappearing the same. I don't see computers disappearing in the next, I don't know, one or two years. But in the future, do we have do we move strictly to the glasses only? because like I saw so don't those demos from using glasses and basically you have like you can like project multiple displays on glasses and you move your head around and you and you see those there. that kind of maybe kind of future of work. I wanted to like test out how viable that is but maybe in the future. I I I I I'm curious where we're going with this with with the hardware. 'Cause software has been changing so much in the past two years thanks to AI that it it's crazy. but hardware, we don't see that yet. And I see here and there some products. I think I've I saw some products which is kind of heavily promoted on Instagram, but I I hear I think like some like Hollywood stars promoted a pocket. Have you heard about Pocket?
Aivars: That was relatively old product already, that pocket, right? Or is that something new?
Paweł: I I don't think so. I don't think I think it's a n kind of new. I I don't know, maybe.
Aivars: Okay, then I missed that one. There was something that was projecting on your information, like you were able to project on your hand and what else not. I don't know if that's that pocket.
Paweł: No, no. So that that's not it.
Aivars: Okay, okay.
Paweł: no. Pocket is basically transcription.
Aivars: okay.
Paweł: basically you take it with with you to your meeting and it listens to the meeting and it transcribes it. I don't I I don't think like they have like I think okay. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Aivars: So many privacy questions, know. Okay, taking to the meeting, but you're taking it everywhere with you, right?
Paweł: Yeah, but I I think like that there are so many apps like that for the I I I don't understand why you need that instead of using V notes, for example. because we we can do that. I don't know. I i I'm curious with that this kind of where hardware is going, there are some kind of people
Aivars: I think those companies trying to break out from this Apple Google ecosystem, know, with Android and iPhone and basically also open AI, therefore talking about some kind of keyboard with joysticks, what else not to communicate with open AI agents and so on. They basically want to, that's... they would like to be independent from Apple and Google as well, know, and have their own kind of hardware platform because currently they are only on software level. I think that's their play, you know, and that's where they are going. And today kind of thinking about like really futuristic kind of changes, will it be glasses? What that will be, you know, we are still kind of thinking. from this paradigm of like mobile phones and computers, know, and we are thinking, okay, what will replace that? But you know, if you are kind of switching to that, talking with those computers already, you know, we are talking with AI agents. So why do you need screens, you know, and so on, you know, why do you need keyboards? it's, it's. If you are looking like really futuristic, that can be whatever crazy pictures you can imagine. How fast we will be there? Who knows, you know. Currently, Apple wants to sell you. MacBook, iPhone, and iPad as well, you know, because, that's another device that you can buy from us, and maybe you need headphones, and maybe you need Apple Watch, and we tried to sell you Apple Vision Pro, didn't work, okay, we will try to do something better, you know. So, Apple kind of trying to just build as many products as possible to sell as many devices as possible, because as you said, there is limited amount of people on the planet, and they need to sell more product. And Apple is is like hardware company, right? Yeah, they're doing software, but to be honest, the software not always is the best, know, to do the thing. But hardware is great. They're making great phones and they're making great. iPad is great product. Software is kind of questionable. are talking about that. MacBook is great product. And and those other companies trying to get slice of this piece as well. and be independent from Apple, you know, to do not be dictated by their rules and policies and so on. I don't know. That's interesting. We'll see. We are living in interesting times and next few years will be even more interesting, but interesting doesn't mean easy.
Paweł: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, exactly you're right. And I myself haven't like ever since I saw like iPads being released, I I thought, okay, I have a phone, why do I need that? And that's ha that has been my thinking ever since the iPod has been released. I never used basically iPad for anything. I myself never like felt the need to have that iPad. yeah, but I I like I think right now what ai all I I think we will see great improvements in times in terms of hardware that's why that's why i think apple apple needs to start innovating and i'm glad they are doing that iphon duo i i think in terms of early reviews etc there has been mostly positive i've that's what i've seen there are some of course there are some disadvantages i of course as with everything But in general they need to innovate because hardware game is going to be change changing. and there are new guys coming into the market. for example, I've recently saw Palmer Lucky. Do you know who this guy is?
Aivars: No.
Paweł: he basically makes drones and some other hardware for military in the US he recently came out and he will be making laptops, new laptops I think because he said okay we're making drones and basically laptop is drone ad screen and keyboard that's it and they will and they're they are focusing on building those laptops in the US And he basically tried to show that you can build a computer in the US and you don't have to fully in US and you don't have to charge crazy prices because components are so expensive. so you have to outsource in China. Basically, that's the whole premise of this patriotic laptops. that's but And I think AI basically you we can say it's solved software development. We can say that because Almost any problem that can be solved with software right now with the access to AI, like Cloud Opus is great and I'm using it mainly, it can be solved with with that. That's why, of course, there there are like bugs, etc. But in that case, in that terms of say I think the software is kind of solved. software development is kind of solved because If it can be done, you give it to AI and it it will do it, basically. And and that enabled companies start thinking further into hardware, into change people are like going outwards of the computer. I've seen many people like hug their TVs, hug their Wi-Fi rotors. and basically give cloud access to the to rotors and i think some i saw some guy gave claude access to his rotor and find issues and claude helped him make his rotor eight times as faster as fast as it was and the people for example have old tvs with old android systems and basically gave Cloud access to that and they rework the whole system with Cloud and it and enabled without ads and make it faster and work even better. So I think we live in a great era and companies will go through and I I think maybe not next year we we probably will I I don't know what's going on. Why like Tesla, why like OpenAI, maybe Anthropic, why aren't they are like floating the idea of building a third phone system. I I I'm curious why why we don't have it already. I think like nothing phone is one i it it's really hard to get into the the market of phones I think but I I I I don't know I think we it needs at least one or two big influencers that will I and Elon Musk type of influencer to kind of float the idea of Linux phone you know to to be viable. I I'm curious Linux Linux and I don't mean Linux by it needs to be Linux. I Linux I mean by idea of open source software phone that have apps and you can still earn on on those apps but basically work like a web web inside basically no no app store and google play store fees that's what I'm thinking I think we'll get there unless Apple and Google will keep innovating and actually make great improvements in terms of hardware.
Aivars: Actually, we had phones with Linux and that was Nokia briefly shifted towards Linux based architecture before adopting Windows. So there was a period when Nokia was on Symbian. Then they were kind of, Symbian. Basically, they lost the market, started to basically sink already. And then they switched to something like there was MIMO, MIGO, something like that. operation system and also they released few phone models based on that and I was kind of looking into the app development for that. That was the C and C++ basically programming languages for mobile app development. But they just flopped. That was basically period when they were kind of shaking, collapsing and basically at the end was bought out by Microsoft and switched to them. Windows phone like operation system and then just kept going downhill I don't think the hardware is a problem, know, if you are talking about third or whatever, like, you know, the operation mobile phone, you know. There are plenty of companies which are basically rising and falling as mobile phone companies. There was HTC, what else not, you know, which were kind of successful and then some were disappeared. And there are a few companies which are making money. One of them is Samsung and Apple, of course. And problem, Problem with phones is like operation system and then like marketplace for them. And if whoever will make another Android phone, I don't think that will make a big difference in the market because that will be just another Android, you know. And if
Paweł: Yeah.
Aivars: we will see like Linux, then okay, how you will sell that to consumers. Where is my Instagram? Where is my Facebook on that Linux phone? And so on. Those will be questions that those users will ask. And if you will say, it is not here, or it is here, but it is really buggy, or you can use web browser to browse them, they will say, OK. Why exactly do I need it? Is it super cheap
Paweł: Yeah, yeah, but
Aivars: and super good in some other versions? No? Then whatever. Give me back my $100 Android, which works just fine. for Facebook.
Paweł: Yeah, that's why that's why I said we need a big influencer to come up with this because and they have like that open source so people can actually start building apps for it before the system even releases, you know. it's kind of tricky situation and it's kind of tricky situation.
Aivars: Remember remember that Steve Ballmer's with this developers developers developers. It's really hard. It's it's it's really hard and I don't think I think I think currently all the big companies who could do that they have like say bigger fish to fry the investing time and energy in AI agents what else nots and that side quest for them is just investing a shitload of money without kind of good and clear benefit.
Paweł: Yeah, I I I agree. Yes, that's why I said like maybe next year some something will show up because like AI allows regular people, not companies, to figure out maybe we'll have something like that. I don't know. we we will see what what will happen we with that and right now I think Agent first, thinking is what we should be thinking. And whenever we're thinking about building stuff, the new stuff, I I think we didn't talk about this like too much, but whenever like you're thinking about building anything, you need to think about agent making it for sure agent first. And and that's how you should approach it. and this is where I will I think end the episode. we talked about some fun stuff today. I really enjoyed enjoyed it and I saw we didn't get any comments, although we had some more views than usual, thanks to you actually. being like sharing it from your account too. So thank you for watching the episode and if you have any questions, any topics that you'd like for us to cover, leave a comment, subscribe and see you in the next one. Cheers.
Aivars: Like, subscribe and see you next one. Bye.