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Hi, and welcome to the Engineering Influence podcast from ACEC.
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My name is Thomas Grogan, Senior Director, Economics and Market Intelligence
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here at ACEC, and I'm also the Staff Director for the Technology Committee.
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We're really excited today to have Justin Webster, Chief Technology Officer
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from HDR, on our call today.
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Justin, thanks for being here. Happy to be here. Thanks, Thomas. Great.
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So, you know, I'm just going to dive in with some questions that we have for
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you and then also want to learn a bit about your work and your day-to-day at HDR.
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But one question we've been asking all our guests on the podcast this year to
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kind of kick things off is, what does digital transformation mean to you?
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Yeah, I mean, fundamentally, to me, it means applying technology in new and
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exciting ways, whether it be automation,
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whether it be generative capabilities, or whether it just means digitalizing
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previously manual processes.
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It just means leveling up our organizations with modern technologies and capabilities
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to deliver better products, more value to our clients, whether those clients
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are internal or external.
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It's really about doing better work faster.
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Yeah, that's really interesting when you talk about leveling up and kind of,
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let's say, modernizing.
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Can you talk a little bit about kind of what your day-to-day role is as the
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chief technology officer at a firm like HDR and how you incorporate some of
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these principles of modernizing,
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leveling up, digitizing old documents, things like that?
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Yeah, I mean, really, my job is to help our organization realize our strategic
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plan and doing that through the application of technology and our technology
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strategy to achieve those aims,
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right, those aspirational goals that we have as an organization.
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And so from a day-to-day standpoint, it's a mix of kind of envisioning strategic
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initiatives to the operational execution of our technology projects,
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as well as just our operations, overseeing our operations, whether it be cybersecurity,
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technology infrastructure, our design applications, et cetera, et cetera.
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It's kind of a soup to nuts thinking about technology holistically and how it enables our firms.
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Yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, something we've heard from CTOs,
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CIOs at other member firms is kind of, you know, you start with your business strategy,
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the business plan, the business model first, kind of have the technology follow support that.
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How do you kind of think about connecting the dots between, you know,
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your business strategy or strategic initiatives and having, you know,
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alignment across your technology functions?
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Yeah, I think it's a challenge, obviously, but it's an exciting one at that.
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I think, you know, really technology is a key enabler. It's a key enabler for
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organizations of all sorts and industries.
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And, you know, when I think about it in our particular space,
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it's really about how do we create the capabilities to augment our people,
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to deliver our services and realize outcomes that benefit our world.
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And when we think about it in that kind of macro lens, you know,
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it's really an exciting, fulfilling proposition.
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Not that it's any easier.
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It's certainly a challenge, but it's an exciting one at that.
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And, you know, I've always been fundamentally curious and interested in technology.
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And so, you know, it's really a sweet spot for me because I'm excited every
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day to come in and say, how can we do things, leveraging technology capabilities
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to realize better outcomes that our business is seeking.
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Yeah. And, you know, I guess you mentioned you've had this passion for technology for a while.
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I know you've worked outside the AEC professional services world.
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What sort of examples or lessons or maybe even mistakes have you seen in other
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industries from your experience working on technology with respect to financial services,
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This is items like that that you're kind of going to bring into working in the AEC space.
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Well, I think that, you know, it's common for, you know, it probably doesn't
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even matter industry in many respects.
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I think that sometimes there's really interesting hype or technologies that
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come on the scene, emerging capabilities.
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And one is to leap too quickly to believe that, you know, the profound changes
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here and now, this instant, typically it follows that kind of hype cycle that
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Gartner talks about, right?
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Right. Where there's this peak of of inflated expectations followed by a trough of disillusionment.
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And there's a couple of things that happen there. One is thinking that something's
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here for primetime a little too early.
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And then the second thing is dismissing something when when it when it looks
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like it's it goes into that trough of disillusionment.
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Really sticking with it and following through the being able to dismiss the
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particular technologies that just aren't going to work.
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And being able to discern the ones that, no, we should be staying with this
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and working through those kind of more challenging aspects of those technologies
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to realize the benefit over time.
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So, you know, one part is just kind of staying with it and staying disciplined
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in terms of the emerging technologies.
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The other thing is like chasing shiny objects that are just too far out there.
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You know, one of the things when Gen AI came on the scene, ChatGPT and other
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models, it was really interesting.
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But it seemed like a lot of different players wanted to go create foundation models.
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And that's not for the faint of heart. You know, organizations like Google and
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Microsoft, OpenAI and others are spending billions of dollars doing those things.
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Those are not activities that we should be doing as an AEC firm.
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What we should be doing is leveraging those capabilities with our own capabilities
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to achieve goals and objectives and outcomes in the AEC industry, right?
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So those are the problems we should be solving. And it's really about focusing
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on the right problems and solving the right problems practically.
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Yeah, no, that makes sense. So, you know,
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what do you have any maybe examples of some technologies that maybe have been
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through this trough of disillusionment recently that you kind of are hopeful that five,
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10 years from now, you know, we'll still be around or, you know,
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we'll, let's say, morph or leverage into something a bit more productive or
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basically, you know, we shouldn't be dismissing right away.
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Way oh this this isn't there's quite a few right yeah you could you could get
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me talking all day on on this particular topic some you know i'll take some
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are virtual reality right.
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That's a capability that has visualization in general is really exciting,
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but it's just taking time to work through that in a meaningful way to have like the maximum impact.
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I'm not saying I'm not dismissing the technology as something that isn't useful.
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It's just nobody really wants to wear a heavy headset covering their eyes for
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lengthy periods of time.
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So I think around the miniaturization and making the form factor fit comfortably
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in ways that are, I guess, not against human nature.
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Again, covering our eyes and not knowing what's immediately around us is not
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natural as human beings.
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Those kinds of things have to
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get worked through, and I think they will continue to be worked through.
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And we see lots of progress, but it's a long, kind of a long journey to get
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there. And I think that's one that's key to keep in mind and kind of what you're talking about.
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Blockchain is another one that I've been following even from financial services.
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It's a really interesting and capable technology. But in many,
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many instances, it was a technology looking for a use case outside of the kind
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of the crypto currency realm.
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Not that there isn't applicable use cases out there, but there are maybe not
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as many as people originally thought.
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And various forms of AI is also kind of playing out now as well.
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Including generative AI. I think that the capability of kind of that general
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purpose or AGI is still coming about, still evolving, still maturing.
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It's not maybe as far along as some would lend you to believe.
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And so we're looking at where can we incorporate those technologies effectively
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today in the here and now in a really responsible manner.
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Yeah, no, that's very interesting. And the VR example is something that,
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you know, maybe eight years ago, 10 years ago was was a bit of hype,
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or maybe more the use cases really for like gaming, right?
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You know, those people might be okay wearing a full on headset,
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but I actually read just the other day, an interesting stat from IDC that was that this year.
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The number of the new meta Facebook Ray-Ban augmented glasses that they made
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is going to sell like 10x more than the Apple Vision Pro,
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which is more that kind of full wraparound headset as opposed to kind of more cool looking Ray-Bans.
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And, you know, I guess that really does kind of speak to your point of,
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you know, really aligning the technology with what the users are going to care
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about or be comfortable with and, you know, make it practical.
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So, you know, with respect to, say, technology and technology strategy,
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which takes input from a business strategy, what are these other components
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of the technology strategy that someone working at a firm should think about
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with respect to either business models, data,
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you know, all your IT IT information systems?
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How do you kind of think about a technology strategy or what a technology strategy
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101 would be for someone who's, you know, stepping into a first-time CTO or
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head of innovation role?
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Yeah, I haven't talked about that. I mean, there's a lot of layers to that particular question.
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I mean, I think we could, it's another one that we could dive really deep into
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and spend some really lengthy time talking about to do it justice.
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But, you know, obviously there's kind of that.
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Outcome aspect of it. Like, what are we trying to achieve?
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And then technology strategy is that critical enabler.
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Like, how do we put those technology components in that align to achieving those
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outcomes and those objectives?
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And when I started thinking about those kinds of things, I started thinking
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about, well, what are the technologies that are those critical enablers to allow
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us to achieve those outcomes that we seek?
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And there's the technology component of it that, you know, is obvious.
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But then there's also, I think, a lot about our people and our skills.
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Like, how do we enable our people to leverage technologies or even be able to
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operate and implement these kinds of technologies that would get us to those
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particular objectives that we seek?
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Well, how are the people that we have, how are we going to skill them in meaningful
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ways for the future in order to enable those outcomes?
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So there's this huge people and skills aspect of it
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there's also you know the software and
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hardware the technology capabilities but then there's the manifest
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forms of that like the cloud capabilities and where
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does that play into it what's the best way to achieve a
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particular tech outcome that we the or technology
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strategy that we're we're we're we're
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moving toward and you know data is this
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critical foundation right i think of like i
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think along the lines of people process technology and data
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i think you know those are those are aspects that
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i think are core tenets to the things that i think about on
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a daily basis and in every case of those it's
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like how do we enable each of those key pillars
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if you will to to achieve those outcomes that we're seeking and you know data
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you know gets it i'll just spend a little bit of time on that one because i
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think people in that have been around technology for decades have talked about
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people process technology people process technology but data is that that.
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Recognition that as a key enabler and differentiator for organizations,
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but many organizations have it, but is it in a usable form?
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Is it of quality?
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Are we monitoring for bias and detecting for bias?
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And what are those kinds of safeguards and frameworks that we put in place to
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really leverage those capabilities to their maximum extent?
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And it's not for the faint of heart. Like, I think a lot of organizations set
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out with really good intent, you know, and find that it, you know,
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it's really difficult. And that's because it is.
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But it's still worth doing. And I think the organizations that really get good
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synthesized, kind of really how they're approaching those particular things,
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such as data and data quality,
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are going to be very successful. they're going to realize the most success. Yeah.
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Well, you know, I love talking about data as well to quickly,
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you know, deep dive a little bit into that.
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How do you deal with, let's say,
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breaking down data silos or kind of
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these things where maybe your HR or project management billing data might be
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living in one system and then some of your more customer-facing market forecast
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data is living somewhere else?
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And, you know, how do you work cross-functionally to kind of bring it all together
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and make sure there's quality around how you can glean insights from those different data sources?
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Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, you know, that's a profound challenge across all organizations
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and appreciate the question because it's absolutely a real, a real one that,
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that, that I've seen throughout my career.
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You know, I think the first part of it is just recognizing where data exists, right?
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And start creating, you know, a proper catalog of what is the data that we possess?
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What is the data of record? You know, what are the systems of record in terms
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of our gold copy or, you know, of data?
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And then getting common definitions around that so that it can be well understood
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and then well understood who who are the owners of that data and who are the
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stewards of that data and the and instituting a governance framework around that.
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And that doesn't mean a heavy handed, you know, it sounds heavy, just saying it.
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In some instances, it does need to be a little more disciplined than others,
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depending on the sensitivity and criticality of the data.
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And I think it's really about putting the structures, processes and foundations
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in place to enable the organization in a meaningful way.
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And, you know, that takes effort. And it's particularly difficult time. It's kind of that what I.
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Clayton Christensen's Innovator's Dilemma, if you've ever read that book, it's fantastic.
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And it feels like that's kind of a situation that we're experiencing in the
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industry right now, is because we have a tremendous amount of work.
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And so the organizations are trying to deliver on that work,
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but we're also trying to, you know, position ourselves for the future at the same time.
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And so it's that constant tension of making sure that we get the work done so
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that we can meet the expectations and delight our clients,
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but then also prepare ourselves for the future and creating data foundations
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in which we can create more value and better outcomes for our clients over time.
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So it's, you know, and that's part of the technology strategy to go back to
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your earlier question is really thinking about what is that kind of strategic
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roadmap that we're trying to get at?
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What are those waypoints along the way that get us towards that aspirational vision that we have.
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In many instances, you know, the technologies that we choose,
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we have to think about what is the value in the near term and what is the value in the long term.
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And it's not just simple. It's not a simple equation of saying,
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hey, I'm just going to choose the long term value because I've seen it in my
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career a number of times,
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even in financial services and other places that if the tangible value to the
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organization is too far out, like the thing just kind of falls apart and implodes
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under its own weight because the organization's like, hey, you know,
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I've been waiting for value and I haven't seen any.
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I'm going to go do something that, you know, we're going to go put our investments
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where we can get something that helps sooner and later.
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So I think that's really part of
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the critical thinking that goes into that strategic technology plan is how
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to deliver value in the near term, but how does that then leapfrog you or springboard
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you into the long-term value that you're shooting for?
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Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I definitely am going to ask a bit more about
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the strategic roadmap, but I wanted to circle back to one other item that you talked about.
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When thinking about a technology strategy and you bring up the skill sets or
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need for new skills or training of employees how.
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Do you work or would someone work cross-functionally?
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Is it like being aligned with like a chief people officer or H,
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you know, like to get that sort of, frankly, training or identifying training
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and, you know, working so that folks don't feel like they're just being told
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they have to learn this new system for the sake of learning the new system.
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But really, right, like how many times has a new software been told,
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you know, start keeping all your notes in this system or that and it just dies on the vine?
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You really want to get that buy in. How does that kind of work,
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you know, behind the scenes?
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Yeah, at HDR there, we do have a chief talent development officer.
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And so it's working very collaboratively with that person and that organization,
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as well as cross-functionally across the organization.
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You know, simply doing it in a silo to the point of your question,
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like if you just kind of demand something from on high, you get people,
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you don't get the level of engagement that you're seeking.
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So there has to be value in it for all involved.
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And it really has to be a collaborative process throughout the organization.
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One that's top of mind that I think of a lot about a lot right now is data.
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Back to data is really kind of that data scientist, data fluency,
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data analytics, kind of understanding and abilities. Like, we're not going to
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be able to just go hire hundreds and hundreds of data scientists.
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Like, it's just – that's not feasible. It's not practical.
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What we do need to do is infuse data science skill sets throughout our organization.
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And so that's something that we think about as just one example that we're creating –,
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um courses and and and
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knowledge articles and really
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assets for our people to to leverage
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in order to you know one i think many many of the folks in our organization
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are hungry to go try and leverage these sort of techniques and technologies
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in in interesting ways and we want to be able to help them do that and so it's
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really about that kind of symbiotic flywheel type of relationship about,
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you know, offering the capabilities people want that are also in alignment with
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organizations' needs and desires.
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Yeah. And I will say, having played around with some of the LLMs, GPTs,
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those, depending on what you're working with, they're almost like a data science
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assistant in the box and, you know, can definitely see how leveraging,
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you know, a skilled worker with the assistance of technology can produce 5x,
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10x, or new work that they couldn't have done before.
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So, you know, thinking about the ACEC membership, we have wonderful firms like
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HDR who have many thousands of employees, and then we have some pretty small firms.
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Some might just be sole proprietorships, two to five people.
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If you're one of these smaller firms, how should you think about,
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you know, a technology strategy,
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you know, going back to your talk about having a strategic roadmap,
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does every firm need a technology strategy?
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You know, what kind of are maybe some basics or ways to start so that you don't
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get ahead of yourself or waste your time, resources,
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buying products you don't need, spending time trying to do something that isn't
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in your wheelhouse and skill set, what kind of advice would you have for,
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you know, a firm that really just doesn't have all the resources available to it?
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Yeah, I think it's, I think it's important to just characterize,
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you know, technology strategy sounds heavy, right?
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Just by saying it. And it needs to be fit for purpose for the organization.
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I think, you know.
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It depends on the situation, but every organization should have what I would
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say is a North Star, right?
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And that North Star is a guiding light to say, hey, we have aspirations of something
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from a business perspective.
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Technology is a key enabler to achieve those objectives.
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So there needs to be some thought about how to leverage technology in a meaningful
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way to get the organization from where it is to where you want it to be, right? Right.
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And so from the from a technology strategy perspective, it can simply be that
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like, how do we how are we going to leverage technology in order to achieve
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our strategic aims as an organization and over what time horizon?
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And so the the the more near term needs to have a bit more detail than the things that are further out,
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obviously, are a little bit fuzzier because our business context environment
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will change over time and we have to be able to be adaptable over that time.
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So it's never a set it and forget it kind of thing.
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We're constantly thinking about it over time. What do we need to adjust?
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What needs to be adapted as things happen? And that's okay.
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And so as I think about smaller firms and just firms of different sizes and
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different sets of business services and whatnot,
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you just need to think about technology as a key enabler and how that allows
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or will provide a means for the organization to achieve its aspirations.
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And how does that align over time? And then we start thinking about,
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you know, you can't just simply say, well, we want to do X.
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There has to be that next level thought of how. How do we enable?
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If it's a smaller firm, it may be yourself. You may think, oh,
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how am I going to acquire the skill sets that I need in order to be able to
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leverage a particular technology that opens some doors for us as an organization? Great.
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Well, you know, Justin, I really appreciate you being here and joining us today.
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I'm going to ask one question, one final question. It's a little two-parted
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to get the most bang for my buck.
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But what do you think is, say, a top risk that firms would face going on a digital
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transformation journey?
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And then what's a top opportunity, you know, to end on a positive note? Yeah.
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Yeah, well, I mean, the risk from a risk perspective, a top risk is wasted investment.
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I think that's a that's a very real possibility. There's a lot of different
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dead end roads to go down, I think, is is a possibility.
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And also, there can also be cybersecurity vulnerability and risk,
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as opposed to, you know, by implementing new technologies and perhaps leaving
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a door unguarded, so to speak, to use an analogy.
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And so, yeah, there are some risks out there for certain.
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But I also think that it is, again, back to my, what I've said a number of times
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is technology is a key enabler.
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And I think it's not something that can be ignored, not only from an efficiency
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standpoint, but also from a capability standpoint.
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So, you know, some of the things that I think about in terms of the application
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of new technologies is we also have to have a balance of thinking about things
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that are efficiency plays versus things that are new capability plays,
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meaning things that enable us to deliver better, maybe better services or better
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deliverables to our clients. You can't focus on just one.
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It's easy to kind of think about efficiency right now because there's so much work to be done.
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But if we solely focus on efficiency, we're effectively kind of just commoditizing the work that we do.
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Instead of we need to become more efficient, but we also have to create more
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valuable deliverables and outcomes for our clients at the same time.
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So we have to think about it in both respects. And I think that's really important.
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And companies that don't think about technology are in position to be disrupted.
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Those that are thinking about leveraging technologies in creative ways,
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and it doesn't just have to be the most expensive technologies,
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but leveraging technologies in creative ways are those poised to be disruptors and reap the benefits.
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Great. Well, Justin, thank you so much for joining us. And thanks,
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everyone, for listening.
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Please stay tuned as we'll have more interviews with experts like Justin and
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other member firms talking about digital transformation throughout the year. So thanks. Thank you.
