How Sabrina Sade (4AM) Cracked TikTok Shop, Retail, and VC Funding

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Today I'm sitting down with Dr.
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Sabrina Said, co-founder of 4AM Skin.
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Her and her partner Jade turned an entire skincare routine into a single wipe and has now gone completely viral on TikTok and into Target National Retail.
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She is one of the sharpest retail and TikTok shop minds you've spoken to yet.
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We're gonna talk about how to pick one product worth betting on, the entire TikTok shop playbook, and how she turned nose from several investors into a literal big mortal.
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Let's jump into it.
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Alright, good to see you.
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Nice to see you.
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Um, so just for context, we go way back pre-COVID.
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And I'm literally gonna lead with this because I actually mean this to the full extent.
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You had asked us, me and Leave to invest in 4am in like 2020.
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Yeah.
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And we didn't have our elevator capital fund formed by then, so we didn't.
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And now that's probably one of the biggest mistakes I've made in a genuinely very long time.
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Right.
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So just want to lead with that.
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I think I actually asked you twice.
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Yeah.
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I think it was like 2020 and then like 2023 again.
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So not my brightest moment.
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Um okay, so since I last saw you, I think you've done an insane amount of stuff just based on what I've seen.
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4am raised, you opened an office in New York, you graduated from Georgetown, you got a doctorate.
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Yes.
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And it seems like you've cracked TikTok shop.
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So we'll get into all of that.
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Is there anything like big picture that's happened on top of that?
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That's already an incredible amount.
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No, I think you hit all of it.
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We started to hire a team, which is also crazy.
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Yeah.
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So yeah.
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So for just the audience, let's start a little high level and then we'll go deeper.
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So let's just start with like why 4am.
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Like, how did you come to this category?
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How did you get to beauty?
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Obviously, people will say, oh, beauty supplements, super trendy, such hot categories, but at the same time, insanely competitive.
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So how did you get here?
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Yeah, so I've always been really interested in skincare.
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I had really bad acne when I was a kid.
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I had old skin conditions, everything.
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I went to medical school, wanted to be a dermatologist.
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I did a lot of dermatology research, but it was before I even went to medical school that I just started talking about skincare online.
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And my friends always would come to me and say, Hey, you're my skincare junkie expert friend.
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And it was really this moment that I saw in the skincare industry that it was so complicated, and so many people would come to me and say, What should I use?
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Like, what is a vitamin C serum?
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Like, pre-COVID, there wasn't really as much knowledge and care and skincare as there is now post-COVID, especially with like TikTok and, you know, people learning through influencers.
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And it was really my best friend Jade, who you obviously know and who I've co-founded 4am with.
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She came to me and said, Hey, you know, it's my first year out of college.
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She was a trader at JP Morgan.
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And she said, I had my first big girl finance check, and I want a good skincare routine.
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Like that is what I'm gonna invest in.
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And I told her, okay, you know, if your skin texture is like this, you can use this serum, but then you also probably want to use this thing and you want to use this thing.
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And she looked at me like, oh, can I just get an all in one?
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Like I have a bag that I go to Barry's boot camp in the morning, and then I run to the office.
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And it really dawned on us that, you know, there was no brand that, you know, made easy skincare, but then felt aspirational and felt like, oh, if I'm really spending my hard-earned money, I want to spend up.
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There was no brand that was allowing you to have both and almost have time as the luxury rather than like the actual product as like the very expensive luxury or like, you know, having to do all the steps.
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And so the original thesis was sell convenience.
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Exactly.
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I mean, it's still the thesis from today.
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It's just wrapped in a different product at this point.
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But it was really this idea of hey, let's make convenience aspirational and have that all in one feeling, still feel like you're taking care of yourself.
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And then when we look down a skincare aisle at like an Ulta Sephora even drugstore, there was no brand that was celebrating this idea of like you can do it all and you can be messy, but you can still take care of yourself.
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And we were really inspired by more like makeup and fragrance brands, like the Tom Fords of the world or the YSL Beauties of the World, where it felt that messiness was almost this like sexy, aspirational thing to be, and wanted to translate that into skincare and say, hey, you can have this all in one thing.
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You can have the easy solution, but you can still feel that that's the hot thing to do.
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So I remember the first product you gave it to me.
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It was the AM and the BM.
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And it's funny because if I look back at the history of my own personal skincare routine, that might have been the only product that I truly use, and then I ran out.
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But like even today, my wife gives me such a hard time for not having like a real skincare routine.
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But every time I ask her to give me something, it's like so many things.
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I'm just like, okay, and then I do it for three days and then I forget.
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Exactly.
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So how much time did you put into developing the first AMPM serum?
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Yeah, so that took about two years to develop.
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I went through dermatology journals, talked to different mentors in the space, be it like cosmetic chemists, other dermatologists, and where we wanted to start was it was kind of that stemming up the conversation with Jade where she said to me, Hey, like what is a vitamin C serum?
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Like, what are these like AHAs, BHAs?
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How do you stack them with each other?
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What year is this, by the way?
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This is 2019.
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Yeah.
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And I remember I was summer of 2019.
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I was like, I want to start something within skincare.
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And then it was really that like lightning moment of when me and Jade had that conversation of, okay, this is what I think is missing in the white space in skincare.
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And I think I had heard so many people tell me skincare is saturated, but uh, I think as a 21-year-old, you're quite delusional and you're you think, hey, I have this idea and there's a reason to be.
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I should be able to cut through the noise.
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But two years is a long time to develop a product.
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It was a long time, yeah.
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It took it from 2019 to we launched finally in 2021 summer.
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And there was COVID in between that.
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But I think actually, instead of COVID being a blocker, it was an accelerator for us because Jade and I were at my family's house in Miami.
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We did a lot of brand building together.
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Um we were together, and I was able to fully focus on it.
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And while I was in medical school for my first year, it was online as well.
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So anytime that I wasn't studying for school, I was formulating.
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And so for us, we had thought, okay, what is the most complicated skew that we think in skincare?
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It's serums.
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How do we make it all in one that is hydrating, exfoliating, you know, brightening, all of these things and really dumb it down to you just use this in the morning, you just use this in the night and have that ease of a consumer.
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But I think as we grew the brand, like you said yourself, like once you're on the product, it's really easy to use, it's really intuitive, and it's really great.
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Like we have people who are literally on their 30th month of subscription still to this.
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We still sell them on a direct-to-consumer, but it's a very hard skew for customer acquisition because you're already a consumer who knows a little bit about skincare.
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Like I need a serum.
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Like most people are wash your face, put a moisturizer on.
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So it's already that advanced skincare user.
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And then it's like get that advanced skincare user, but then you want it to be easy.
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And then, you know, like you said, there It's almost a cliche.
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Exactly.
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Um, and even though it is that all-in-one and easier version of it, hard to sell on socials, you know, it's a bottle, it's beautiful.
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And we spent a lot of time on the design and the brand building of it all, but it takes time to see too.
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And especially in a very quick social native world, asking someone to trust that in a month your skin's gonna look better and better and better and better.
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It's a hard value prop, right?
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And they're more expensive too than the rest of our lineup.
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So you went from being a serum-focused business to now what's clearly a wipes-focused business, right?
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How natural or how much friction was there pivoting?
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And also how did you come to that conclusion?
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Yeah.
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So when we started the brand, we had laid out on a whiteboard in my parents' living room, I'll never forget, all the products that we wanted to make, right?
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One of them was these serums, but one of them was these makeup wipes.
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And it was really because Jade would sleep with micellar water next to her bed and cotton pads when she wouldn't want to wash her face at the sink.
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And I myself, talking to other dermatologists, said, Hey, what's the most convenient skew in beauty or whatever?
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And what's the number one that you hate?
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And the one that every dermatologist hates is makeup wipes because they tug at your barrier.
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They come in these like plastic foils, basically, that all the liquid goes to the bottom.
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And so you're taking out the driest wipe, and there's a lot of alcohols and fragrances in them, and they're just not great for you, but they are consistently the most convenient skew.
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And I think now, again, there's like more love into skincare.
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But many years ago, I think I saw some stat that like the majority of people who would like use skincare, like just would use a wipe every day and that was it on their face to cleanse their face.
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And so for us, it was that we always really wanted to develop this product from the beginning because we knew that we wanted to change people's perception of makeup wipes.
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I also think that I don't want to say the name of the brand and hopefully we could add it, maybe part of this out.
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But if you think of a makeup wipe, you think of those blue packs.
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And yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
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I've seen I've seen the picture, by the way.
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Yeah, and exactly like us versus them.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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And and usually I feel like girls will like stash it in the back of their, you know, their bathroom vanities.
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It's not like a celebr, they don't celebrate that product, right?
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Like no one is like, oh, I have this out on my vanity and it says something about me and I love this product.
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Like there's no love for makeup wipes, I feel like.
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There's no ride or die other challenger brand for makeup wipes.
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And so we said, hey, let's flip this on its head and put the 4am spin on it, because it is the most convenient product when it comes to washing your face, cleansing your face, but it sucks as a product.
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And so we wanted to basically turn it on its head.
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So what we did was we made them individually wrapped because there's usually 25 in a pack.
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We wanted the last one to be as soaked as the first, and we put a lot more liquid in it.
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Like you can literally see when you, I mean, they're not like dripping when you take it out of the pack.
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You can drip all the like there's so much serum in it.
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And basically what we did was it's a micellar water base.
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And then in addition to just the cleansing ingredients, there's also skincare level ingredients in it.
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So a lot of Korean beauty ingredients like scintilla asiatica, calendula, glycerin, vitamin B5.
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So, really, as you're cleansing your face, you're also hydrating your face at the same time.
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Like so many people actually use it as a daily wipe too, because they'll say, Okay, if I'm double cleansing, I'll wash my face first with a normal cleanser.
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And then, especially girls who like wear makeup and bronzer and all these things, they'll be like, okay, I gotta make sure I get all the makeup out in my hairline and things like that.
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And they'll use it as their actually second cleanser because there's all the serum in it too.
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So it's truly like, if you look at the front of the pack, it says like your entire skincare routine in a wipe.
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It's truly that.
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You should trademark that by the way.
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I'll I'll text my lawyer on that.
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You should.
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But for us, it was really this idea that, okay, hey, like, how do we make something that is portable skincare on the go?
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If I just don't want to wash my face, maybe I'm not sleeping in my own apartment for some reason.
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And can I still do my skincare and have it be something that is almost like the same way that every girl has a lip gloss in their bag?
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We wanted everyone to have a 4 a.m.
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clean sheet in their bag as well.
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And when we launched them, you know, we thought it would be a great skew.
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But pause, pause.
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So you're at your parents' living room.
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You have the whiteboard, you've got serum, you've got wipes, and let's just assume there's other stuff on it.
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At this point, you had no data.
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No data.
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So it was just a gut feeling.
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Gut feeling, yeah.
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This is what I'm trying to understand.
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It's like because a lot of people, their decisions are data-driven, you know, it's 2026, yada yada yada.
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Like there's a bunch of data.
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Exactly.
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But for both your products, both were sort of gut-driven, qualitative feelings.
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Yeah, exactly.
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It was just talking to people.
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Because I think too, the brand was a gut decision too.
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Now I think party girl beauty or whatever is having a moment, and like people have branded as so many things.
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Because of you guys.
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Brad Summer.
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Well, I also feel like there's like Brat Summer, the Alex Earl's of the world.
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Like I guess Brad Summer, but that was last summer.
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That was last summer.
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But there's always something.
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But what we had always realized is like people have always loved partying.
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Like life should be a celebration.
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And like, why is it that we're having these like prescriptive routines put onto us and they just feel so like overwhelming that you have to drink green juice and do Pilates and like all this stuff?
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Like, let's just celebrate life and make that a brand, basically.
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Hey, I'm Manish.
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And I just want to quickly give you more context on the world of elevator.
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:52.240
Elevator goods is where we build our brands from the ground up, owning the product, operations, and growth.
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Backing founders with capital, mentorship, and connections.
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Elevator Talks is where we document it all.
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Sitting down with operators who've actually done it, going deep on their frameworks, their numbers, and the decisions they made to move the needle.
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And back to the show.
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I'm like genuinely fascinated by this.
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So you have the serum, it's already selling.
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Yeah.
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But in these conversations, you see another product, you think of another product or wipes, and you think to yourself, hey, let's go all in on this, or is it just sort of like, let's try it and see what happens?
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So I'll take a step back.
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The reason also why we launched serums first and not wipes was because there are two wipes manufacturers in the US.
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Wow.
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And it is their minimums to do any runs are super high.
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Yeah.
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We were not capitalized.
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You know, we had no money.
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We had a tiny, tiny, tiny like seed money from when my brother gave us like$5,000.
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And then we had some other founders that believed in us and gave us our first type of money to be be able to launch this brand.
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And we had basically gone through the serums and then we had also then launched under-eye masks right after the serums as well.
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And that was when we first saw the viral momentum from TikTok shop.
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But to give the high level on it, they're non-replenishable.
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You can use them up to a year.
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So had some good initial success, but then it was a big drop-off.
00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:55.759
But from those two products, we used that money and grew the brand profitably in order to basically fund a wipes run.
00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:01.120
And we ended up actually meeting a bunch of wipes manufacturers from Europe to Asia to the States.
00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:07.679
And we ended up working with a sheet mask manufacturer in China that actually we had convinced them to make wipes and do a smaller run for us.
00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.200
And we had ordered, I think about like three months of inventory.
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:15.039
I'd have to text Jade on the back end to exactly know what the runway was supposed to be.
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.840
But then we sold through them basically in a month.
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.919
And then another couple months of inventory, we then sold through that run in two weeks.
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:23.840
And then we did it again, and then we did it again.
00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:32.000
And at one point, right after the first run, we had drained our bank account to$400 in order to make another run of the wipes.
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:39.919
And I don't think it was an active decision per se on like any one moment of okay, we're a wipes brand now.
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:45.360
But it was so many different falling pieces that it just started to make sense for us.
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.559
I mean, quickly the SKU became 95% of our sales.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:49.440
That was my next point.
00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:54.080
And then it just increased the like I had a call with our revolve buyers two days ago.
00:14:54.159 --> 00:15:04.240
And it's a small account for us, but they said, you know, just in the past uh one to two months, you guys have done 500 times or sorry, 500% more than you did all of last year.
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:04.639
Yeah.
00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:10.960
And so just the growth of the brand and finally feeling like, oh, this is what product market fit feels like.
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:11.440
Yeah.
00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:13.279
I remember early feeling everything.
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:13.600
Yeah.
00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.240
I remember early in the business, we tried to raise money.
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:17.200
It wasn't really working.
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:22.000
We got connected with the founder of Array, the supplement brand, and we were like, how do you fundraise?
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:23.840
Like, how do you find product market fit?
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:25.919
Like, how do you get your product out there?
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:29.440
And they did it really well where their first product had product market fit.
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:31.759
It took us two times or three times.
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:36.480
But she was like, You'll just see it, and like an influencer will post it, and then you'll do$40,000 the next day.
00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:37.039
You'll just know.
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:38.799
And I was like, She's not telling me something.
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:39.919
There is some secret.
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:41.919
And then it happened with the wipes.
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.960
And I was like, okay, this is what it's almost too easy, you know?
00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:47.600
So today is wipes 95%.
00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:48.399
And then serum.
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:50.559
Okay, literally.
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.559
So are you just gonna discontinue serum?
00:15:52.879 --> 00:16:04.879
I think for us, there are so many people who ride or die for the serums, and we put so much effort into just keep developing them that we'll continue to have them on our direct-to-consumer, but it's not a focus for us.
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:18.159
And then another thing I think that made us realize both that wipes had legs and that we should really focus on wipes in general was well, if you want to get to like the nitty-gritty of it, they're just so easy to sell on social, right?
00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:23.440
From one video you can see a before and after, it's very easy to explain the product.
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:30.879
And it's really this white space that I think a lot of brands have done over and over again of taking some drugstore shameful product into a flex product, right?
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.039
Of hey, this is the better for you version of it.
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:33.440
Yeah.
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:38.399
And we joke that we found a white space in a wipes space, but it truly is that.
00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:42.159
That it was this one fraction of beauty that there was a white space in.
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:47.360
And yeah, if you look at what the number one bestselling brand is, they're consistently the number one.
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:50.240
I will confirm nor deny that one.
00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:50.879
I know that.
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.480
But they are consistently in the top five bestsellers on Amazon.
00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:56.720
They're 80%, I think, of market share.
00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.919
And then after that, it's a drop-off of every other brand is said one percent.
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:04.559
So there's really no challenger brand in the space that's making it better, and they're a huge business.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.319
And wipes are a huge skew.
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:06.799
Yeah.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:07.759
So a couple comments.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.400
Number one, the white space, so true.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:14.240
Look, I'm not like your target demo, obviously, but I it to me, it even then it's like obvious.
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:15.599
Well, even guys are on it.
00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:16.480
Like it's so interesting.
00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.440
Like so many guys have it for like after a workout.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:20.480
Like, makes sense.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:25.279
We recently are like launching with a paddle studio or workout space, I don't know what they're called.
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.240
Like the paddle course.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:28.480
Paddle community community here.
00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:36.000
And it just makes so much sense because like if you're sweating, you just want to refresh on your face, you know, and then run to a brunch because you don't want to like break out or something like that.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:37.039
Then you can use it.
00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:37.519
Yeah.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:38.880
So the comments stand in mind.
00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.039
One, the white space thing is so true.
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.920
Two, you made it so much more optimized.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.119
Like the incumbent that you're talking about, they're like kind of big packs, right?
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:49.519
Yours are perfect for e-commerce.
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:50.079
They're so small.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.720
Yeah, they're the only credit card-sized wipe on the market.
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:53.440
That's huge.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:56.480
And that was an attention to detail thing that we really thought about.
00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:00.960
Like when we were making the wipes, I remember our manufacturer was like, you can't have it this soaked.
00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:03.119
And we were like, no, we have to have it super soaked.
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.759
Like the that shot that I squeezed the wipe, that's like one of our biggest hooks on like a Philippine.
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:13.359
That's that's huge because like you took something that was traditionally big, like no one's gonna put that in their gym bag, right?
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:13.920
It's huge.
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:15.119
You've made it super small.
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.599
That makes it super interesting for two reasons.
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.559
One, shipping costs, obviously, the most obvious.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:27.279
And then two, it's an it all the comp all of a sudden becomes an out-of-home product because now it's in your gym bag or whatever, your purse.
00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:32.079
So I think that's an insanely underrated pivot that you made.
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:33.680
Which brings you to my next comment.
00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:46.480
The pivot, the way you did that is really impressive because actually I was just talking to Case about this before, but like the art of the pivot is really difficult to pivot your hero product.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.599
And it's funny because like to me, it's it's like what Apple did.
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:52.799
Like there used to be a computer business and then really became an iPhone business.
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:55.920
Obviously, they still do both, but like it's that extreme.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:00.640
Like the way their sales just swung to another product, I think, is super impressive.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:02.799
I will say though, I don't think it was intentional.
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:08.720
Like, I know you're saying, oh, it's so hard to pivot a hero product, but it was just that we had so much momentum with this product.
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:09.200
Yeah.
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:16.880
And that it was the first time where we really were like, oh, like we can just do these replenishments at larger and larger and larger rates.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:21.759
And then the thing that really cemented it the most was Target reached out to us.
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:24.799
One of the Target buyers actually just DM'd Jade on TikTok.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:25.440
Oh, yeah.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:27.119
I didn't even put that in my list of accomplishments.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:28.480
You went, you launched in Target.
00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:28.880
Right.
00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:29.119
Yes.
00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:30.400
The launch station went in Target.
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:30.640
Yeah.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:35.680
Um, one of the biggest beauty rollouts in uh in recent history, I've heard, which is crazy.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:36.480
We'll get to that.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:37.279
We'll get to that.
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:37.680
Yeah.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.960
But it's we're one really excited about Target as a partner.
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:45.920
But when we first met with them, you know, on the first call, they were like, this is so smart.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.599
We would love to launch the wipes and we'd love for you to make a mini trial size as well, because they were just in the 25-pack.
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:55.680
They're like, we want you to make a five-pack for the mini bdie bins, and we want to launch you in every target store.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:56.079
Insane.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:57.279
And Jade and I looked at each other.
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:02.400
And by the way, when they had reached out to Jade, I had told her, Oh, probably not a fit.
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.759
And she was like, Yeah, it's probably random, but let's take the call.
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:17.359
And because for you know, other reasons we were potentially pursuing different alternative paths of, like you said, being that holistic skincare brand and wanting to really focus on like the serums.
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:21.119
And I never thought the serums were gonna sell at Target, like it's a$69 product.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:22.559
It just wouldn't move there.
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.519
But maybe in another traditional beauty retailer, it might have.
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:31.039
So, you know, when we took the call, we were we were still like on the fence, like, oh, should we launch?
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:31.599
Should we not?
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:50.160
And then what will bring us eventually to chatting about the fundraise is we went out and talked to every single beauty founder that we had their email and our phone number from people who had already exited their brand to people who had just launched in resale and said, Hey, we have this uh kind of crazy offer and we're weighing it against a few other offers that we have.
00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:51.359
You know, what do you think?
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:58.000
And we had really thought to ourselves, okay, we're gonna need to be well capitalized, rolling into a nationwide launch at any retailer, but specifically Target.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:00.400
And we were asking, what's the state of investing?
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.559
Like, are people investing in early stage brands?
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:06.160
Like we had just launched the wipes in July.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:16.960
And when I say that, like the numbers that we had before July were not great, we wouldn't have a really bad valuation as compared to like what we saw the legs of the product would have been.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:27.279
And we had said, hey, we're really not gonna raise until January, but we want advice because we wanted to be able to show, you know, the holiday numbers coming in through the gate to be able to really have a good valuation for the round.
00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:36.400
And the round finished before when we had said we were gonna start it in January, because we just asked for advice of, hey, what's going on with the market and should we take this nationwide launch or not?
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.079
And then we ended up getting preempted with a term sheet, and then another one came in, another one came in.
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:51.200
But it was in that moment where through those conversations with other founders and other VCs and through target saying, hey, we only want to launch clean sheets, that we realized we could have a whole business on this one SKU.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:56.559
I really do mean this, and I know you kind of just touched on this, but like it should feel natural.
00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.519
Like when you hit that product market fit, like it should be obvious.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:00.319
Mm-hmm.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:06.160
And sometimes I feel like with early stage businesses, people are pushing boulders, you know, up a mountain or swimming against the tide.
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:11.359
And like Leif always tells me this he's like, we need to stop swimming against the tide, and we just start swimming with the tide.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.559
And I think that is like such a beautiful feeling, by the way.
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:17.680
And you start swimming with the tide and all of a sudden it's just like moving.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:18.640
Beautiful feeling.
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:25.119
And I remember, you know, last year, I think it was, we first got introduced to the Kabu team who ended up leading our round.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:29.839
And I looked at their portfolio and I was like, wow, it's like such a dream portfolio.
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.680
It's so cool, but they would never invest in us.
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.640
And I don't know why, like in my head, I I always remember their website.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:35.440
It's a very cool website.
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:36.720
Happy to be on it now.
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:40.400
But I remember so much thinking, like, you know, how would I ever get there?
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:41.359
How would we ever get there?
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:48.640
And then when we launched the wipes, had the conversations with them, we were like, this feels so natural to now we fit in your portfolio.
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:48.960
Yeah.
00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:54.000
And it because they invest in amazing companies that really do that better for you version of whatever it is.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:58.559
If you think their biggest investment is was Poppy, they were really the better for you soda, right?
00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:04.480
Or just a bunch of other brands like Beekeepers Naturals, which is like the better for you, like NyQuil immunity, right?
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:06.559
Um, native pet, better for you pet brand.
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.839
And so when we think about us now, it's really better for you wipe.
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:16.640
And then that was a natural partner too of who to pick between all of the VCs that we were chatting with, of whose strategy do we really align with the most.
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:28.079
And that's also why we ended up working with Target too, because of the other retailers we were chatting with who all ended up having the same competing offers, it was really that we believe in the fact that we are a convenience product.
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.359
We are the surprise and delight convenience product.
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.839
And who is that retailer but Target?
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:42.880
So before we dive deep on Target and then also the rays, I want to touch on TikTok because I feel like that for you has been the ultimate channel.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:47.839
Speaking from my own experience, TikTok and in particular TikTok shop is actually really hard to crack.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:53.039
But you both make it seem very easy, like at least from the outside looking in.
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:57.440
So I really want to get into TikTok shop for a second because it's obvious, right?
00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:59.599
Like everyone knows that's an exploding channel.
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:01.759
But for you, so that's your number one source.
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:02.640
It is, yeah.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:03.119
Okay.
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.599
How easy, like how natural was that for you, or how much work did you have to put into it?
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:11.440
And and now what percent of like your media mix is TikTok versus others?
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:11.920
Yeah.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:19.759
So it's funny because we launched on TikTok Shop, I think the month that TikTok shop launched, in like August of 2023.
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.079
And I remember Jade and I looking at each other being like, we have to get on this thing, TikTok Shop.
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:29.440
And it was actually even before like there was a Shopify connector like within TikTok Channel, but it was that early.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.720
It was when people would be able to get our eye masks for like a cent.
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:33.680
It was crazy.
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:35.119
Like they were funding all these promotions.
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.200
And that's a greater strategy for 4am.
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:40.079
It's always been, let's just test and see what works.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.799
And if it doesn't work, I mean, you tried it, whatever.
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:44.480
You might as well try the thing early.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.960
And it's funny because I even had a conversation today with another early stage brand.
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:55.680
And I was like, you are leaving money on the table not being on TikTok shop in terms of both media spends and then actually like a cruel of customers.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:00.400
But for us, we had just thought, okay, how are we gonna acquire new customers?
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:14.880
And even before TikTok shop started, I remember early in the brand, we had a PR package that we were sending out with the serums, and we ended up partnering with Patron, which I don't even know why they said yes to giving us, you know, alcohol to send with our serums at the beginning.
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:16.559
But it was like a gift with purchase.
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:19.359
It was uh, we were sending 200 PR boxes to influencers.
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:19.599
Okay.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.839
And when we first launched the brand, no one cared about us, right, in 2021.
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:25.119
Yeah, they want to keep it.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:32.240
And I had said, you know, oh, I said to Jade, oh, we have like 20 influencers I think we can send this to that I could like make posts or something like that of our friends.
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.319
Otherwise, we have 180 PR packages.
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:35.359
I don't know what to do with them.
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:36.799
There's this thing called TikTok.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.359
Let me post a video on it and see what happens.
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:42.079
So I literally posted, hey, is this your vibe?
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:42.960
This is our brand.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:43.920
It's 4 a.m.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.400
We're sending out a PR package.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:51.039
We'd love to send you our skincare that's made for party girls, and we'll send you like some tequila, basically.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:52.079
Drop a comment.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:55.599
And within a few hours, it got three million views.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:58.799
And so that was the first time we went viral, which was pretty crazy.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:05.440
And we realized, okay, this plot and influencers that I loved commented on it, being like, oh my God, please send it to me, please DM me.
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:14.000
It ended up getting taken down because I said alcohol in the video, but it was really the first time we were like, okay, this platform is how we acquire customers, right?
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:22.559
And then the first day of launch, I think because the video went viral, there were people that we didn't know that weren't our friends and family that we were forcing to buy our serums that bought the product.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:25.680
And so we had just tested a bunch of various things.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:38.319
Jade obviously became a creator on the platform too, which I think what we've tried to do as a more brand ecosystem is there's the 4am brand page, and there's Jade's TikTok, and there's my Instagram.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:45.279
And really how that is is I share a lot of the like behind the scenes of being in medical school, formulas, developing the product, dermatology research, right?
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:50.400
And bringing that like scientific credibility to it and the world building and the brand building.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.359
And then Jade is like, here's what all the hot girls are doing in New York.
00:26:53.440 --> 00:27:04.640
And if you want to be a hot girl, you should be using 4am and really developing like that parasocial relationship with her followers as well, and of like the what the Alex Rolls of the World try to do and then sell product.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:14.000
And then the 4am page obviously is the brand ecosystem of hey, here's our brand, and this is how you should live your life, and life's a party, and have really beautiful branded content through that.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:18.720
And then we we view both of our personal Instagrams even as like brand funnels for the TikTok.
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:30.160
So the split on that is about 88% of our sales through TikTok shop came from like Jade's account and the 4am account and some of my TikTok, but barely.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:40.000
And then recently it's become more of a split to affiliate, where when we were launching into Target, we said, okay, it's probably not as scalable to have it all come from our platforms.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:42.079
Let's now focus on gifting to affiliate.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:48.079
So it's now switched that a majority of our uh sales funnel on TikTok shop is affiliate.
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:49.440
But it took a while to get there.
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:59.359
And how we ended up, I guess, finding success on the platform was really telling our brand story and people just resonating with the problem solution of 4 AM.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:04.960
It sounds like it happened pretty again, naturally and quick though, specifically to TikTok.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:05.759
Is that accurate?
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:11.440
Or do you feel like I think the thing is is like people will always say it's an overnight success without realizing that it took years to go into it.
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.440
Yeah, and I'm not trying to oversimplify it, but like I feel like you guys are just really good at TikTok.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:16.079
I think so.
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:17.440
I mean, we're naturally online.
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:19.279
We're chronically online, right?
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:21.039
And that's helpful for sure.
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:25.599
And and I also think so many people are so precious with the their brand, right?
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:36.000
And I think that's also been what's helpful about Jade having a personal TikTok and me having a personal Instagram that we will post maybe what the brand won't post per se, but that will still be a funnel into the brand.
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:37.039
Yeah, exactly.
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:47.039
And so it's funny because like I even as like someone who like l is the one who wants to build such a beautiful brand, I'm like, sometimes you gotta do the cringe things that sell, you know?
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:47.440
Totally.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:48.880
And the growth hacks of it all.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:57.200
So what percent of your sales are now like TikTok derived versus meta or other channels?
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:00.960
It's hard because retail plays into it.
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:06.319
So I don't necessarily know if like that TikTok person is getting converted at retail at this point now, right?
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:06.960
Of course.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:12.720
We just started spending on paid a couple months ago when we say paid, you mean meta.
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:13.279
Okay.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:15.839
Do you do you do GMV on TikTok?
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:17.200
We just started that as well.
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:21.680
And for us, we also weren't really doing affiliate until a couple months ago.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:24.480
All of it, I mean, it we had supply issues, right?
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:26.799
So we weren't gonna spend when we didn't have stock.
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:27.680
Right.
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:34.559
And then when we were starting to think about the rollout for Target, that's when we started thinking about okay, we have to start boosting things.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:46.799
Jade's funnel that's been really helpful for us, I think, on Meta is that we'll find affiliates on TikTok, because we have about now like a thousand pieces of content a week from TikTok from affiliates, which has been great.
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.440
I mean, don't actually maybe don't quote me on that, but I think that's that's the right number, give or take.
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:59.119
And she'll take whatever the top performing ones are, the ones that she thinks will scale the best on paid, go through a platform called Tribe, which allows we use Tribe.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:08.400
Yeah, which allows for you to give affiliate on meta ads, run it from the creator's account, not even the 4AM account, and which has been performing better.
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:16.400
And then that's what's been scaling for us because it's a lot easier for affiliates just to like do the testing rather than us paying to do the testing on meta per se.
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:18.240
How do you manage your tribe community?
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.559
This is like sidebar for a second, but do you do you do it in Discord, WhatsApp, at all?
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:25.759
We have a Discord, but we don't really use it that much.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.000
That's something that we're actually actively figuring out.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:28.400
Yeah.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:29.759
Same, by the way.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:30.799
So sidebar on that.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:34.240
We can have a call with Jade after too, because I know she's like actively figuring it out.
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:36.079
I think she's put everyone on Discord though.
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.079
And we'll have some like webinars to like talk to our affiliates and things like that.
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:45.839
Aaron Powell For me, this is especially cool because you know, as you know, we've recently started this podcast and we've been interviewing a bunch of people.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:50.799
You're the first TikTok shop where TikTok generally forward brand.
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:53.119
The others are very meta-driven.
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:53.680
Yeah.
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:58.319
I mean, I think the best thing about TikTok is that you can just try things and it's free.
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:03.279
Obviously, it's your time, there's opportunity cost to it, but you're not paying to boost something, right?
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:04.559
And you don't know how it performs.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.519
And I think too, it's like TikTok, I think, is still a white space.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:12.240
Like there are brands like Lancome who aren't on TikTok shop yet, and they boost the TikTok shop videos.
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.680
Like a video that I'll post without a shop link will get 5,000 views.
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.400
But if I post it with a shop link, I'll get 500,000 views.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.079
You know, and so TikTok is so actively pushing that.
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:34.960
And it's funny too, because I was actually speaking to someone else at Kabu the other day, and she was like, Yeah, I think the the week that I had heard that we were like starting to talk about you guys, I looked you up and then all of a sudden I got fed like hundreds and hundreds of videos.
00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:39.680
And I was like, oh, this brand is on a like momentum, like they're crushing it, they're everywhere.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:47.519
But I really think it's because TikTok wants you to buy that product so badly that they will just feed you so many videos until you're like, okay, fine, I'll buy it.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:48.960
Yeah, like just yeah.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:49.920
I totally get it.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:50.319
Okay.
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.279
So TikTok, and then I guess last question on the TikTok space.
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:56.079
Oh, also last thing on TikTok, their algorithm is so good.
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:56.319
Yeah.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:03.039
Like I think that's also the thing about it is that they truly know specifically the type of person that would buy my product, you know?
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:06.640
And I think that is something that meta necessarily hasn't figured out yet.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:07.279
Yeah.
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:14.400
But that's also why I think creators, or not creators, but brand founders are comfortable just doing GMV Max, where they're like, you figure out the spend.
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:20.240
You know, I think also for your category uh skincare, like TikTok is just superior.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:31.759
And I, you know, I I think my opinions have shifts shifted a little bit, but like at least in the beginning, like 2023, four or five, maybe even this year, like products under$30 really did better.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:34.480
Aaron Powell I mean, yeah, that's why we even did a 25-pack of wipes.
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.039
At first we were thinking, okay, should we do 30 pack of wipes?
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.799
And then we said, no, we want to keep it under$30 until they were$29.
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:50.400
And we also wanted to make sure that it was like light enough to ship, still subscribable, and like that, you know, people would be able to do it as an impulse purchase and then come back.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:59.920
We're actually increasing the account size to 30 now because we're gonna be able to do some competitive pricing with target being the volumes that they are, which is great, and we're gonna give it back to the consumer.
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:05.359
But yeah, when we started, that was an active decision that we said, okay, 25 wipes,$29.
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:11.519
And also then at 25, you can't it's it's kind of harder to do the per wipe price when you're trying to divide it by 25.
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:12.240
So that's another thing.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:13.359
You couldn't do the quick mental math.
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:14.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:14.480
Makes sense.
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:21.119
So is it safe to say that if you were, let's just say you had to do it all over again, would you do it first, like TikTok shop first again?
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:21.839
Of course.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.359
I tell every brand you're bootstrapped, TikTok shop.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.039
Even if you have VC money in TikTok shop, because you will find a community.
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:34.960
That's a thing too, is that like I think people on TikTok, they feel a part of the community, even if it's an ad.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:38.319
On meta, do you really feel that connected if you see an ad?
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:39.759
I think that's the difference.
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:42.880
Like, not even in the slight slightest connected.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:43.039
Yeah.
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:54.640
I feel like TikTok really brings you into that brand world, even if it's like a messy brand world where it's like the founder's doing founder-facing content or memes or whatever, you still feel a little more connected to that brand.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:05.440
I also think that with TikTok, where it is in its life cycle, it's the same thing that if you got on Amazon, what, you know, 20 years ago at this point.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:07.200
You kind of get grandfathered in.
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:20.559
Like in all seriousness, if you were on Amazon, let's say even 10 years ago, and you amassed 100,000 reviews, you cannot compete with that listing, no matter how hard you try, because they have been grandfathered in.
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:23.440
They have a hundred thousand reviews, they've got the overall choice.
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:27.199
I was speaking to actually a competitor of one of our brands.
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:36.960
I won't just for disclosure, I won't say exactly, but like they do 20 million in sales on Amazon and they spend one million.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:37.599
Wow.
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:39.760
That's the most insane role ass I've ever heard of.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:40.239
That's crazy.
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:43.119
It's because of how grandfather, like just decades.
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:43.519
Yeah.
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:48.159
So, anyways, my point is that with TikTok, I think that there you you have early mover advantage.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:51.119
Yeah, like I think for us two people were like played down 10 years.
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:51.679
Do you know what I mean?
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:52.239
Exactly.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:53.760
And and I think it's still early.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:56.400
I think if someone makes a shop tomorrow, you are still early.
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:57.760
That's the beauty of it right now.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.679
And that's why I'm saying every day someone waits, they will be leaving more and more money on the table.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:03.519
But just turn on the platform, you know?
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.079
And I do I think it's great for awareness, right?
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.960
Like, like I said, Target found us on TikTok.
00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:12.559
Like I think these buyers are saying, this is what's working on social.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:13.679
We have to lean into that.
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.400
And these are the brands that we're gonna give the big rollouts to, you know.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:22.880
I do think though that every single buyer is looking at social and saying, okay, what's trending, what's not trending.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:29.119
And it's funny because I so distinctly remember we were at a coffee with a friend of ours who has another gummy brand.
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:32.239
And she was like, I don't know if I should like shut down the business.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.719
Maybe I should just like work at an agency, do something else.
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.400
And we were like, try a TikTok shop, try it, try it, try it, please try it.
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:41.199
And it has just catapulted her business.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.199
She's now nationwide and a huge retailer as well.
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:46.079
And it was all because of that small momentum from just turning on TikTok shop.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:51.039
Yeah, I mean, like feeling I have my stomach of wanting to grab my laptop out and just like turn on TikTok shop.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:56.800
I swear Jade and I should have some sort of affiliate link just for TikTok shop, the amount of brands that we've gotten on it.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.119
Yeah.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:35:59.119
Okay, so now let's talk fundraise.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:35:59.360
Yeah.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:00.079
Actually, you know what?
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:05.039
One other thing I'll say on TikTok because this was a question that you had, and I think it's important was what you said.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:08.719
I think what's working on the platform that you don't think will be working in the future.
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:17.760
One of our big strategies with TikTok shop, which I think people get wrong sometimes, is so many people think that TikTok shop is only for like discounting and price plays.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:32.480
The number one thing that's worked for us has actually been brand storytelling and getting someone to watch a three-minute ad where I say, this is the story of how a medical student and her sleep-deprived best friend made a makeup wipe that doesn't suck, like I'm Sabrina, I'm the mad student, whatever.
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:43.199
But you have so much attention of these people and actually having them go through the brand story and then you're also kind of selling the product as the video goes on has been the most successful thing for us.
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:47.519
And I think too many people are playing the price game, which is where you find the danger in TikTok.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:51.119
And I think that's what the bigger brands who are worried about the brand dilution.
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:53.920
That I think that's where that's coming from for TikTok, if that makes sense.
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:55.599
I've heard that many, many times, by the way.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:57.039
Yeah, and so I think people doing that.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:57.440
Yeah.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:01.199
So I think leaning into the brand story is what's been successful for us, actually.
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:01.599
Yeah.
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:02.000
Yeah.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:02.960
Okay, sorry, fundraise.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:03.840
Fundraise.
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:17.920
By far, one of the hardest things to I mean, so so many things like can be distracting, can be overwhelming, can be disappointing, you know, can be a trap to get the wrong partner, can be a time suck.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:24.400
You know, again, if you get the wrong partner, all of a sudden you're tied up in board meetings and making company update decks.
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:27.199
So I'm so curious because it sounds like you found a great fit.
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:36.719
I mean, you alluded to this earlier, but I'd love to understand like what that experience was like for you, why it was the right partner, and you know, just how it all went down.
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:44.320
You know, we'd always met people over the course of the business, and we said, okay, well, can we add you to this like friends and family like update email list?
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:46.079
By the way, I'm on that list.
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:47.360
It's so brilliant.
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:48.000
Thank you.
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:49.840
Like, you do the little things like that.
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:51.119
Uh I read every single one.
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:52.559
I'm like, wow, this is so smart.
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:52.960
Thank you.
00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:56.639
I have another friend who does that, Case's brother, who's just a friend of mine.
00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:58.639
Again, I didn't invest, should have.
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:02.719
But these like update emails that you just send to people that never invested, but they should.
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:03.840
So smart.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:10.159
Because it kind of keeps you in the like the VC like mind space, you know, of like, oh, this is a company I should track.
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:18.800
And what we'd always do, we'd say, okay, here's like the wins of the month, here is like the things we're working on, and then here's what we're looking forward to.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:20.480
Maybe we'd add an ask in there.
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:22.960
And just, you know, but no pressure for anyone.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:27.920
And we would send them monthly, ended up becoming quarterly as the business started to ramp up.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:32.159
And then it kind of ended up being only when we have an actual big win that we would want to sell VCs.
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:33.039
Or you share something.
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:33.679
Exactly.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:37.039
But we had always been really intentional about holding the relationships.
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:39.440
And I think it's just because like Jade and I are friendly too.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:42.880
If we had a problem, we would ask a founder, like, hey, do you have advice on this?
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:43.920
I know you're at this stage.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:52.480
Like, we'd always try to mentor jump, which I think was really helpful for us early on in starting 4 a.m., someone had told us, find someone who's just one step ahead of you.
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.360
So, like, if you had just launched, find someone who launched three months ago.
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.760
If you launched three months ago, find someone who's in their first, like mini, mini retailer, right?
00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:01.360
And then keep going up like that.
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:06.559
And now we have mentors that have like far and beyond exited their companies for$300 million, which is amazing.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:08.480
And now investors into the brand.
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:18.079
But when we had had this decision of what retailer was the right retailer for us, and kind of do we think that there is legs with wipes?
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:20.320
And should we really be focusing on this?
00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:25.679
We had hit up, like I said, a bunch of VCs that were later stage.
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:38.159
And we intentionally had asked the later stage once because we said, okay, well, if we want a raise in January, I don't want to necessarily say something wrong now and not give them the right pitch.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:46.480
And then, you know, they might not be as interested in January or like we might lose the momentum with the hype of how everyone says run a very tight process.
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:54.639
And so it was funny because it was like this month stretch where we were talking to various founders, then various later stage VCs.
00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:05.039
And I remember we went into one of these VCs' offices in New York, and she was like, Oh, I just had one of my port co-founders in, and they were just talking about you, how they were talking to you about this advice, and now we're gonna talk about it.
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:18.719
And I do think one of later stage founders, I'll even talk my from myself, like something I love to do, and I think VCs love to do is if a founder has a problem, they love to strategize with you, especially if there is no like follow-ups and work to do afterwards.
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:20.239
Yeah, they just love to shoot the shit.
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:28.559
They just love to shoot the shit about like, oh, this is what I think about like this trend or this trend, and kind of have the cerebral exercise around like your problem.
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:28.960
Yeah.
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:37.519
And so we just did that and got people really involved in like this high-stakes decision of basically what retailers choose when all else was basically equal.
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.880
And if we should pivot into wipes.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:50.159
And from those conversations, you know, we had basically godfather style gotten a term sheet over a lunch, like pushed across a desk and was like, hey, I want to lead your room.
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:51.119
We weren't expecting it.
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:52.159
We were not expecting it.
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:56.559
You basically, okay, so just to summarize this whole thing, you went out to the market.
00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:58.639
You got kind of rejected more.
00:40:59.119 --> 00:40:59.440
Rejected.
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:00.480
And this was about a year ago.
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:01.760
This was before clean sheets.
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:05.760
Then, as a result of that, you basically had met a bunch of people.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.079
Yeah.
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:07.360
And you were like, hey, you know what?
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:08.719
I'm just gonna put you on an email list.
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:09.920
I'm gonna put you on an email list.
00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:11.679
And I'm just gonna shoot you emails.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:13.280
Quarterly, let's say.
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:20.239
And from that, you developed a close circle of founders, investors, and people who just like always would help us.
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.599
Yeah, because yeah, maybe they rejected you, but they still are curious.
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:23.840
Right.
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:25.039
They're opportunists.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:26.000
Yeah, exactly.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:28.719
And then from there, you kept in touch.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:28.880
Right.
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:29.760
Kept in touch.
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.079
And then we had the when the we had this really big decision.
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:38.559
You reached out to we had an email blast of like, hey, like we just got an offer from this retailer.
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:41.039
Clean sheets are doing this on TikTok shop.
00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:42.719
We've sold out now four times.
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:45.519
One of our asks is, you know, what do you guys think?
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:47.440
Anyone like want to hop on a call?
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:52.960
And we we also sent like that from the email list, we sent like a smaller version of like we took some people out.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:55.760
Yeah, like the the key people we actually wanted to talk to.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:56.480
Exactly.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:04.239
Or we sent basically individual emails to people too, being like, hey, you have this experience with this, you're in target like we had also segmented of target founders.
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:11.039
And so basically we we said, okay, all these founders and different retailers, like let's talk to them and be like, what do you like about your retailer?
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:13.199
Like, what do you wish you knew before you launch somewhere?
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:14.480
Can we do a nationwide launch?
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:21.920
Because we were also in this, I think, era where we had seen a lot of brands uh shut down because they had launched in too many doors too quickly.
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:22.400
Totally.
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:30.000
And the target buyers, they said to us, because it was so funny, actually, on our first call, they were like, How many doors like do you think you want?
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:37.119
And we were like, uh, we're like a New York brand, probably coastal, maybe like New York, LA, Miami, maybe.
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:37.840
I don't know.
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:39.599
And they were like, okay, how about nationwide?
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:42.159
And we were like, like, I don't think we can do that.
00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:44.239
Like, I don't know if that's even possible.
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:46.320
And I remember texting Jane being like, Did I hear that correctly?
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:48.719
Like, did I just hallucinate that they said nationwide?
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:50.719
And so that was another big question for a lot of people.
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:53.519
And a lot of people told us not to do it, even though we did.
00:42:53.760 --> 00:43:01.039
But through that, and through then talking to the later stage investors that we had also tried to pick their brains, one of them resulted in a term sheet.
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:07.519
And then we had gone to a different later stage investor and we said, Hey, do you think this valuation is correct for the market?
00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.800
Or should we just say no and we'll go out to raise in January?
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.199
Or should we just take it now that we have this in our hands?
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:17.360
That later stage investor that we asked put in a competing term sheet, which ended up being common.
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:23.280
And for us, it was this moment where we genuinely were asking for advice.
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:28.880
Like I think everyone says, like, ask for advice, get money, ask for money, you get advice, and then you try to make up some advice.
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:30.079
Like it was genuine.
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:33.199
Hey, we have this question, we have this problem.
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:34.880
And I think people also saw the momentum.
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:36.559
So it was this perfect storm of all three things.
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.800
If we had the product, we had the momentum, and then we had a competing term sheet.
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:43.840
And I think there's a lot of VC FOMO that happens as well.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:55.119
But then it ended up being a storm of then multiple competing term sheets afterwards, and then figuring out, you know, what was the best path forward and kind of pinning a few against each other to get the terms that we wanted.
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:59.760
Um, but from the beginning, when we were thinking about who is the right partner for.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.639
For us.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:02.079
If we were the 4 a.m.
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:05.840
that we were in 2023, I don't know if Gabu would be the right partner for us.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:14.559
But I think because of where we are now as a company and the vision that we have of when you think better for you, white, do you think 4 a.m.?
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.920
I obviously am biased, but I think that they're the best to do it.
00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:26.079
And when I really realized that was right before uh we had signed a term sheet with them, Good Culture, the cut of cheese brand, had sold to El Catterton.
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:32.960
And I remember thinking in my head, like about a year before, like I just started buying good culture.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:36.320
And I always thought, oh, this is the cut of cheese brand that I'm supposed to be buying.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:41.679
And why is it that, you know, I have in my head that this is the better for you cut or cheese brand?
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:43.920
And then I realized it was like one of Kapu's portfolio companies.
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.679
And now I was like, did they do that?
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:46.559
But it's true.
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:52.960
I think all of their companies that we're now with, whenever I think, what is the better for you version?
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:54.079
It's it's that one.
00:44:54.320 --> 00:45:04.480
And so because of that, and because of their brand building and their team that they have, um, they have a whole marketing agency under Kabu called Uncommon that we work with um on a weekly basis, which is awesome.
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:07.280
We really said, okay, this is the right partner for us to go forward.
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:09.360
And they are, they have high expectations.
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:11.039
You know, they're a later stage fund.
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:14.400
I think we're one of their earliest investments since Poppy.
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:18.719
And so it really made us become a real company faster, you know.
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.119
And like you said, we have board meetings, we have reportings.
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:22.960
And at that point, we were a two-person company.
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:24.400
We were, it was Jade and me.
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:24.960
Like that was it.
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:25.440
Really?
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:26.400
Yeah, that was it.
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:29.599
And our virtual assistant who was doing customer service for us.
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.320
But literally, it was a two and a half person team.
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:35.360
And now we're a team of six and a half.
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:37.840
And yeah, we have a board and we have all this stuff.
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:42.719
And a lot of people also told us like, don't do that too early because you'll waste your time on things.
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:47.360
But they have also been a great partner to say, hey, we know that you're working on target stuff.
00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:49.039
Like, don't worry about us yet.
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:53.679
Like we'll be here for support, not necessarily to annoy you and bug you.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:46:02.079
Like, we're just really here to make sure that you know you're growing as a company and where we can help you, you know, we can help you and be a resource rather than you just doing reporting for reporting's sake.
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:09.920
With VC, because lately, I don't know, just maybe in my own personal network, I know less and less people going the VC route.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:13.679
So I really would love to understand in a little bit more detail from you.
00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:20.400
Like, okay, so first and foremost, from the moment you got the term sheet, like the godfather style, there's obviously all the diligence and stuff, right?
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:22.880
So term sheet godfather style.
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:24.880
Term sheet godfather style was a different fund.
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.639
Cash and bank, yeah.
00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:26.960
Yeah.
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:28.239
What was like that time period?
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.199
So term sheet godfather style was a different fund.
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:39.679
And then we had about three weeks where we were going back and forth with multiple different funds on what the term sheet was, right?
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:44.159
Because some would have side letters, some would have board rights, some would have blah, blah, blah, right?
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:45.519
Some were clean safes.
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:49.519
And so it was a few weeks back and forth over Christmas.
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:50.159
Filtering.
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:50.800
Filtering.
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:54.960
I remember I met with a different fund like the morning of Christmas, like in Miami.
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:55.519
They called me.
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:58.880
They were like, oh, like, you know, I want to get into this round, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:46:59.039 --> 00:46:59.760
Like, meet me here.
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:01.440
It was honestly kind of crazy.
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:06.400
And it was like early, like late December, early January when we ended up signing with Kabu.
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:08.000
And then their diligence happens, right?
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:11.679
And I think once you sign a term sheet, everyone tells you, oh, it's gonna go through.
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:16.800
But when when money hasn't hit the bank yet, you sit there and you're just like, ah.
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:28.400
But I think the one thing was that we really tried to make sure was when we were in this process of even chatting with people during the like, okay, now we've had a term sheet and now we're deciding.
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:30.400
And it was December, which we were a little bit annoyed about.
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:37.360
We were like, we are going to run a process from basically December, early December to Christmas, which is the time that no one wants to be raising because everyone's checked out.
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:38.079
Everyone's done.
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:50.239
I also think the first uh term, the first fund that put in the term sheet kind of knew, okay, if I preempt them early December, they might freak out and they might just take my term sheet, basically, because they won't want to run a full process.
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:53.199
And we were crazy enough to do it.
00:47:53.440 --> 00:48:00.239
And we told every fund you can meet with us either before 8:30 in the morning for breakfast, or you can meet us after 6 p.m.
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:01.360
and you have to buy us dinner.
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:03.039
And that's the only time we're meeting with you.
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:04.480
Otherwise, like enjoy your Christmas.
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:06.239
We'll see you when we see you.
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:15.840
And I think really being strict with our time and saying we still have a business to run, you know, you can work around that was the one thing that I think almost had so respectable.
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:19.679
Had VCs, yeah, respect us a little more because we were saying, hey, we're in holiday.
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:21.679
Like it is the biggest time of 4 a.m.
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:22.719
This is the momentum.
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:24.719
We have to actually focus on selling our wipes.
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:28.079
And, you know, funding is going to be an afterthought for us.
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:30.079
And it's gonna be if you want to be a good partner to us.
00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:34.079
And this is how we we know that you'll be a good partner to us, is if you respect our time.
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:47.519
And so throughout diligence, too, that was kind of like the posture that we were trying to take of, hey, we understand that you want all these materials from us, but we also are running a business, you know, like there are certain timelines that we have to hit.
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:49.440
We have to get target inventory by this time.
00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:53.039
If we're trusting you to be a good partner, you also have to treat us the same way back.
00:48:53.199 --> 00:48:57.440
And I think through that, we developed a stronger relationship with our fund.
00:48:57.519 --> 00:48:58.400
And it was great.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:06.960
And then over the course of time too, we had some other angels that came in who were either, you know, operators, founders, some celebrity.
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:13.840
It was like a few months, which I hear is like standard in VC timeline, but yeah, every day that like months?
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:14.800
Uh a little bit under.
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:15.280
Okay.
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:20.159
So and so just to clarify, it's from the final Kavu term sheet to cash in the bank.
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:20.480
Yeah.
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:22.960
So obviously there was time in between the filtering process.
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:24.880
Yeah, actually, I think it was two months.
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:25.519
It was two months.
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:26.719
And actually it's pretty fast.
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:28.559
Like from term sheet.
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:32.800
Again, I know you put in a ton of back work to get to the term sheet, but just physically term sheet.
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:33.199
Yeah.
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:35.599
And I mean the term to get to the term sheet was like two weeks.
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:36.639
So it wasn't even that long.
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:46.320
And then another question I had is a lot of early stage companies, when it comes to data cleanliness and financial cleanliness, it's not really there.
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:47.519
Well, that was a big thing.
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:54.480
I think why I had thought it might have been taking longer was because there was so much cleanup that we had to do from the org standpoint of a lot of our legal docs.
00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:57.679
Like, I don't even think we had appointed us as like officers to our board.
00:49:58.000 --> 00:49:58.159
Yeah.
00:49:58.320 --> 00:49:59.519
So this is kind of what I'm getting at.
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:03.679
Like even having audited financials or PLs or balance sheets.
00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:04.559
None of that.
00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:05.199
Exactly.
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:12.639
So this is what I want to get into sort of like really what's necessary for an early stage company to go BC.
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:14.880
Like, what happens if you don't have audited financials?
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:18.639
I mean, we had it from our accountants, but we kind of just gave it to them like messily.
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:21.840
Jade had a model that she had made what probably wasn't like the perfect model.
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:22.880
This is what we have.
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:30.079
But I also think at the end of the day, if you are investing early stage, right, like it is on the idea and it's not the founders, right?
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:43.039
Like I do think that I was telling I remember telling our investor at Kavu, like, listen, you know, like there is just not much here because at the end of the day, like you're investing in like what can be, right?
00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:46.000
And like what the idea is and what the market space is.
00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:49.360
And that's I think also why the relationship was so great.
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:57.840
Cause everyone kind of understands the fact that, okay, here's the like TAM, here's the thing that we're going after, here's other comps of like people who've done it before.
00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:02.239
If you think about like what Starface has done to Pibble Patches, what TouchSand has done to hand sanitizers, right?
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:10.159
And what literally all the rest of their portfolio company has done, they can see that this is the white space, and then we can formalize that and do it over and over and over again.
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:15.280
And so I think I also turned it around on them and I said, Do you have belief in yourself that you can help us do this?
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:15.840
You know?
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:18.800
And it's you shouldn't be looking at necessarily our trailing revenue.
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:20.559
It's about what's come, what's to come.
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:29.840
And I think we're we were in a very unique position that our forward-looking momentum was incredibly, incredibly different than what was our trailing, right?
00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:35.119
12 months or whatever you wanted to call it, because we had launched the wipes in July.
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:41.760
We only really had four months of data that was so different than before, like the whole life cycle cycle of the company.
00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:47.760
And then we were launching in close to 2,000 Target stores with NCAPs and minis and full size.
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:50.719
And so we just said, you guys have to believe that this is gonna come.
00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:52.239
Sorry for the messy PL.
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:57.280
My last question on VC, and then let's go to Target or retail in general.
00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:00.960
Is VC can can get romanticized a bit.
00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:08.079
How much real value does the VC add versus just the cash?
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:19.760
And it's not a trick question, and I know you wouldn't say anything negative because it's it sounds like such a great relationship, but like maybe at a high level, like is it really a you're adding a ton of value partnership?
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.000
Or is it really just, hey, here's cash, you believe in us, and some value?
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:26.320
I think both can be true at once, right?
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:33.119
Like I think there if we just had the cash relationship, I think that would actually be fine and great.
00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:36.320
And actually, there's pros and cons to both, right?
00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:39.199
Like I think if we just had cash, obviously we'd have to do less management.
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:42.079
It's less time out of your day, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:51.360
But for us, like a our another investor of ours, Larry Marcus, who co-founded Marcy Ventures with Jay-Z, he spun out and now has a new early stage fund.
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:58.559
He actually put like the first large check into Foram even before Kabu like through the his family office.
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:13.039
But he has become kind of a mentor to us at foram when we have just questions or want to like soundboard off of someone and has really become a great thought partner and not in the like now, you have to do the annoying reporting side of it.
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.840
He's just like, hey, like I have just grown all these brands and I've seen what these things are and I have these ideas for you.
00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:21.440
So I think it's great when VCs are money, right?
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:32.239
But when you have someone who has built many brands over and over again or invested in many brands over and over again, it's helpful to have someone as kind of a, hey, I've been around the block once or twice as first time.
00:53:33.199 --> 00:53:33.760
Yeah, exactly.
00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:38.800
And as long as they continue to be a thought partner and not it's almost take it or leave it, but hear the thoughts.
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:39.599
Exactly.
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:49.519
If someone came to Jade and myself and said, I think your marketing is completely wrong and I wanna completely fix it or do something about it, or you need to change this, it would start to become a problem for sure.
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:52.159
We haven't run into that yet, knock on wood.
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:58.079
And hopefully, you know, all the horror stories that I hear, we it won't happen as we continue to do well, hopefully.
00:53:58.480 --> 00:54:04.719
But I think it just as a first-time founder, of course I'm delusional and I'm gonna think the 4am is gonna go to the moon.
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:10.719
But it's definitely helpful to have people who know what levers to pull and who have done it before, right?
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:19.039
Especially in an ecosystem that I am not as familiar with, such as retail and you know, being in person were more digitally focused.
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:24.880
But for example, Rohanosa, the founder of Kavu, he's built brands over and over and over again, right?
00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:27.119
He's like one of the greatest investors, period.
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:27.760
Exactly.
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:32.480
And so that's I think another thing we really appreciated the fact that he was an operator first, right?
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:45.519
And so I think that's also as founders, finding people who are operators and then investors has also been incredibly helpful because even all of our angels, they're co-founders or operators at, you know, great brands that we looked up to.
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:47.360
And they've been the most helpful to us, I'd say.
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:49.599
Yeah, I mean, money can be money at the end of the day.
00:54:49.679 --> 00:55:01.360
If you really believe in yourself and you don't want a VC to bother you, like find a high network individual and have them invest in your company that they're just like, I'm doing this for fun, and I don't need to necessarily make this like crazy return.
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:08.320
Cause I think that's also sometimes where I hear the horror stories of people really like knifing you if you're not doing well from the VC side.
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:08.880
Yeah.
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:10.480
Let's talk Target.
00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:13.840
For me, so I do have retail experience.
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:22.079
My first brand ever, Curant, we started retail wholesale first, and we actually wound up launching globally an Apple.
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:22.559
Right.
00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:24.159
Like Insane, by the way.
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:30.000
Like when I look at that experience, I uh when you were talking about Target and they were like, how about nationwide?
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:33.920
And that like floored you in a surprising way, like it was the same thing.
00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:38.239
For us, it was global and it was also electronics, right?
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:44.480
Which meant different plugs, different voltage, different packaging certifications, languages.
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:48.159
I remember that being the most like daunting experience.
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:49.519
Honestly, it was really difficult.
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:52.960
Honestly, when I look back at that, like, and this was before Claude, this is before AI.
00:55:53.119 --> 00:55:53.199
Right.
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:56.079
Yeah, so many people have actually asked me, like, oh, how do I build a brand now?
00:55:56.159 --> 00:55:58.000
I'm like, it's so easy for you now, you have claw.
00:55:58.239 --> 00:56:03.360
It's just so annoying because if that happened today, I'd be like, okay, copy, all paste, yeah, exactly.
00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:04.000
Do it.
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:05.760
Fable five, do it.
00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:06.960
Like, anyways.
00:56:08.559 --> 00:56:16.400
But my point with all this is uh my biggest memory of that whole experience with Karanton was that e-commerce and wholesale are different teams.
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:26.559
Like e-commerce is brand growth, you know, wholesale is sales team, trade show team, um, demand planning.
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:28.880
Anyways, different teams, different functions.
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:30.480
But you have you said six people.
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:31.360
Five and a half.
00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:32.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:37.119
Well, we're hire onboarding someone, so it's gonna be six and a half, but in person, full time, it's team four.
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:46.960
So how do you do this like and maybe this bridges the conversation into like your work, right, your workload right now and personal life, and that's kind of where I wanted to end with.
00:56:47.199 --> 00:56:55.920
But like, how the hell are you managing this like booming TikTok shop e-commerce business with a nationwide rollout with four to six people?
00:56:56.239 --> 00:56:57.679
Yeah, we're not, to be honest.
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:01.360
I mean, I think that the real answer to it is that it's really hard, you know.
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:03.280
And I think, like you said, it's very daunting.
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:07.679
And there are certain units that you have to hit out the gate at Target.
00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:13.920
So everything from digital to growth has been drive to retail, drive to retail, drive to retail.
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:21.360
And then Jade and myself, who are making the big decisions on marketing, are thinking, what are the retail marketing things that we have to do?
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:25.840
You know, I just met with someone from a brand, uh, from uh what was it called?
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:26.960
It's called IELTS.
00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:30.559
They like make rebates for Target and Walmart and things like that.
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:36.960
I'd never heard of it before, but I'm literally looking up every single thing of what levers can we pull for Target.
00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:50.480
And then why I say like five and a half, six and a half is because when we were launching in retail, we said, okay, we probably should bring on some sort of fractional operation team to help us with EDI and get on SPS Commerce.
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:51.840
Words I had never heard of before.
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:52.400
Exactly.
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:53.360
Huge learning curve.
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:54.880
Learning curve, insane.
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:55.840
The back end of Target.
00:57:56.880 --> 00:57:57.599
Love you target.
00:57:57.679 --> 00:57:58.400
It's like from the 80s.
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:00.079
No, it's super overwhelming.
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:00.960
Super overwhelming.
00:58:01.519 --> 00:58:03.599
Legacy, not digitally native at all.
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:16.400
And I think the thing is that you almost don't even know what you don't know, you know, which is another really scary thing of, oh God, am I missing something that's gonna just give me an$100,000 chargeback one day and ruin the business?
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:17.679
I was getting there, yeah.
00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:32.559
And so we had brought on a fractional operations agency, and now we brought on a fractional like COO basically at this point to run that back end of let's make sure that the retail engine from an ops perspective is very buttoned up.
00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:38.800
And I think with the thing that Jade and myself are running into is we thought that any digital would just translate to retail.
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:45.440
And we even had this conversation today where we were both like, should we bring on someone who's like retail focused on the marketing side?
00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:54.239
Is it that we just need more like junior people under us to help us to catch knives and to put out the fires and then we'll focus more on the retail stuff?
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:55.760
How does this all work together?
00:58:55.920 --> 00:59:05.119
But today, actually, we just talked to a few like people who head up retail at other various brands that are doing, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in retail.
00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:09.119
And in my head, I was realizing that it's such a different animal.
00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:24.000
You know, you think that you know everything to do with the that digital growth, the digital brand, and you think it's just gonna translate, but it doesn't, you know, and and I think for us, what's so great is that the placement at Target right now that we have is in the mini-bins for our five pack.
00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:32.239
And it's such a discovery engine for retail that it's been smooth sailing so far.
00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:37.360
And what our primary placement is coming in July is we're on an end cap.
00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:40.079
So we're have that out-of-aisle visibility first.
00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:44.719
And so again, more samplings, getting more eyes on the product.
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:50.159
And then in August, we're scaling up into the 1850 doors on our shelf.
00:59:50.320 --> 01:00:00.719
And the big thing that we had wanted to do, and why we had said, hey, we even if it's less doors, I want to make sure that we have two facings of our boxes, a sign and a shipper that it sits in.
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:02.079
So it's like a billboard on shelf.
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:07.840
Like I don't want it to be that there's a single box on a shelf ever, because we need to do more of that retail education.
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:14.239
But even learning like, what is it that when a target shopper comes in and they're looking at the sign, what do they care about the most, right?
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:15.599
Like what should I put on this sign?
01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:20.800
And sometimes it will take a full week of just thinking, should I put this sentence or should I put this sentence?
01:00:20.960 --> 01:00:22.159
And it is all on gut.
01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:23.920
Like there is no data.
01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:28.239
Sometimes I feel like AI actually is too confusing because sometimes it's wrong.
01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:29.360
Sometimes it's wrong.
01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:34.239
And oftentimes it will get you to spin your wheels in circles where you're like, oh, well, what about this?
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:36.480
And they're like, oh, you're right, Sabrina.
01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:37.840
I'm so glad you brought that up.
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:39.199
Like now I'm seeing it differently.
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:40.079
Most annoying.
01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:40.960
Which is very annoying.
01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:45.360
And so I do think a lot of it is on gut, which is a scary thing to do.
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:50.719
But that is what I think is the underlying thing that you just have to believe in, right?
01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:54.000
It's like, okay, I got the brand this far somehow.
01:00:54.159 --> 01:01:00.719
And then let me bring in all the other experts from their various expert expertise, like our fractional.
01:01:00.960 --> 01:01:02.480
So a lot of fractional support.
01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:03.199
Yeah.
01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:14.960
We basically took for our fractional COO has an insane resume coming from like Summer Fridays, Sacred, um, Merit, Verse, like a lot of great, great, great skincare brands.
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:20.559
And, you know, for us, we said we want to make the investment into someone like this who is gonna know the things that I don't know.
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:28.639
Like every time I get on a call, sometimes they'll talk about like WMS systems and for our like 3PL, which I had no idea what a WMS system was.
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:35.280
And it makes me smile every time because I'm like, this is why we invest in someone who has the experience and knows what's going on.
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:35.840
Yeah.
01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:46.320
The scariest thing for me about retail is especially when you don't have like a built-out ops team, is like when you go out of stock, for example, on e-commerce, okay, whatever.
01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:54.639
Like, yes, you piss off customers, but there's a very real way to communicate and you know, via email spec, whatever, like, okay, the website goes out of stock.
01:01:54.719 --> 01:01:55.199
That sucks.
01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:57.119
But it it's not the end of the world.
01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:04.400
But if one were to mess up demand planning for a target, that's like a catastrophic disaster.
01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:19.360
Because let's say, you know, to your point, it's holiday season, and all of a sudden, if you're too early stage of a brand and something happens and you miss the delivery, not you but one, like that could really mess up that relationship.
01:02:19.599 --> 01:02:23.679
And so I'm genuinely so impressed that you're able to like take this on and like.
01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:24.960
Well, it's just been a month.
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:27.039
So let's it seems like it's going well.
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:31.519
But I we do have a weekly demand planning sync now with everyone on the team.
01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:36.239
And so that is something that, like I said, we invested a lot into the op side of the business.
01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:36.559
Yeah.
01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:53.280
Because we knew if we had a this huge undertaking, you know, of a nationwide target launch, like we were gonna have to be professionalized in that area, especially because we had dealt with so many supply chain issues coming into Target with selling out like over five times, basically, and ramping up to band.
01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:56.559
And we'd even made sure with our manufacturers, like we had asked them.
01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:01.519
Hey, do you have the capacity to even make this much?
01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:02.079
Right.
01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:09.840
And from chatting with them and talking to them, it turns out that you know, we do, which is great, which is why we were able to launch this quickly.
01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:12.079
But these are the hard questions to ask, right?
01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:15.760
Like, okay, let's say this beautiful offer does come on your table.
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:17.280
Is it the right time to say yes?
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:24.960
And I think I saw a clip of Jade somewhere where she said, like, if Target had asked us two years ago, it would have been a disaster or something.
01:03:25.199 --> 01:03:25.519
Mm-hmm.
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:26.320
It would have.
01:03:26.559 --> 01:03:26.800
Yeah.
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:32.559
And so I think that's like, again, just for people listening, like sometimes it's not always appropriate to say yes.
01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:35.360
You have to say yes when you are ready to say yes.
01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:55.519
And it's so funny because I think I am a pretty woo-woo person when it comes to these things, but it my woo-woo-ness has almost increased because I feel like quote unquote the universe or whatever you want to call it, has timed out everything so perfectly with the brand, even in retrospect, where I would like shake my head against the wall and say, why is this not happening right now?
01:03:55.599 --> 01:03:57.679
Like, why do we have to wait for these retail launches?
01:03:57.840 --> 01:04:00.880
Like, why do we have to wait to get VC money?
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:02.239
Like, why is no one giving us money?
01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:10.320
But if we had had, even if we were VC backed, I think, two years ago and we were going into a different retailer, I don't think we would have the companies today.
01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:13.280
And I don't think I would believe in the vision that we now have.
01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:17.360
I think the the vision and the exit has never been so clear to Jade and myself.
01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:28.079
And if it was a year ago with a different strategy and a different partner and a different retailer, I don't think I would have as much conviction as I do now.
01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:34.239
So last two things before we wrap, I want to talk just like work ethic and then like some rapid-fire stuff.
01:04:34.320 --> 01:04:40.800
But going I alluded to this earlier, but like you're obviously you've accomplished an insane amount in such a short period of time.
01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:43.280
And I'd love to hear like how do you handle that?
01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:44.719
Like, what does a day in the life look like?
01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:49.760
Because a lot of times people romanticize it, but we know that it's a disaster, right?
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:52.320
Like I can say the same thing for like the way we deal with things too.
01:04:52.400 --> 01:04:53.280
It's just like it's a mess.
01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:56.559
Like I've said this many times, but I've for the last 10 years I've worked 9 a.m.
01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:57.199
to 2 a.m.
01:04:57.360 --> 01:04:57.679
every night.
01:04:57.840 --> 01:04:58.559
Full stop.
01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:01.199
And only the people behind closed doors know that.
01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:02.480
And that's not fun.
01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:07.199
So I'm curious, like, what is your what like what is a day in the life of Sabrina look like these days?
01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:17.199
Yeah, it's it's been a little bit lighter since I graduated from medical school, but I was a lot of people, I mean, do know, but I was in medical school while we were building the brand as well.
01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:26.320
And so a lot of that was scrubbing into a surgery at 4 30 in the morning or doing rounds at 4 30 in the morning, scrubbing into surgery at seven, and doing like two to three surgeries a day.
01:05:26.480 --> 01:05:28.800
And then in between, like catching eyes with 4 a.m.
01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:32.719
of Jade saying, You need to post the TikTok post today, or you need to post the Instagram post today.
01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:33.920
We have this to do, that to do.
01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:42.079
And like I said, the thank God, the momentum of clean sheets kind of happened in my fourth year of medical school, which is kind of when things get a little bit lighter.
01:05:42.159 --> 01:05:44.159
You can do some research online electives.
01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:46.960
I finished my requirements early, thank God, in the year.
01:05:47.119 --> 01:05:48.639
But it was, it was a lot.
01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:49.679
I was not seeing friends.
01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:51.280
Pause for a second.
01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:58.639
Like what you just said, like going from sur like three surgeries a day to post antique, like that is crazy and like so impressive.
01:05:58.960 --> 01:05:59.760
I will never forget.
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:03.440
Our first or second very viral TikTok for 4 a.m.
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:09.760
I was studying for my medical boards, and I had kind of gone dark on Jade because I was studying for my medical boards.
01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:11.920
It's like the same as the bar for law school.
01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:16.719
And she was like, please, I beg you, I beg you, just like make this one TikTok.
01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:18.159
Like, I know it's gonna go viral.
01:06:18.239 --> 01:06:19.920
Like, I've literally written the script for you.
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:23.280
You just need to record it and like cut up your B-roll and do it.
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:26.320
And it was like three days before my boards.
01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:29.599
And I was like, okay, this is gonna take me like an hour to do.
01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:31.920
It ended up having me take the whole day.
01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:37.039
When you're in your last days of studying for your boards, like every day, every hour is like critical.
01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:44.960
And I remember thinking to myself, like, oh God, if I do poorly on my boards, I'm going to cry so much because I was trying to do this one TikTok.
01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:46.800
Thank God I did well on my boards.
01:06:46.880 --> 01:06:51.920
And that TikTok ended up getting us a million views and selling out the product the like the next week.
01:06:52.079 --> 01:06:58.480
So it was really this like insane, insane moment where I was like, oh, like maybe I can do both.
01:06:58.559 --> 01:06:59.360
Like, I don't know.
01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:09.280
But it was, I mean, it was really, really insane of trying to finish all the medical school requirements and then also thinking, oh my God, like we finally have, you know, momentum with this product.
01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:17.280
And I was going into dermatology clinic, seeing patients coming home, calling investors, and just doing it all over again.
01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:23.440
And I think during that time, I just eat, breathed, and sleeped medical school in 4 a.m.
01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:36.800
And even to this moment too, I continue to do dermatology research and I try to now syndicate my days where I can, but a lot of it looks like, you know, not being able to respond to text messages until someone has pinged me three times, you know.
01:07:36.960 --> 01:07:38.639
I post on my story quite often.
01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:44.000
If there is something pressing, like please ping me, I will not get offended, is because I have forgotten to respond.
01:07:44.239 --> 01:07:50.960
It's working, you know, into the office at the office until like 12, 1, 2 every day.
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.920
I'm trying to just keep your head afloat.
01:07:54.000 --> 01:08:03.840
And I think the one thing that's been very difficult is that now, since we have a team, you're managing a team, but still in the early stage of a startup, there's things that still fall on you.
01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:09.280
Like if I don't create the social media posts, there's no social media for 4 a.m., like for our Instagram.
01:08:09.440 --> 01:08:14.079
And so if I have a really busy day and that post hasn't gone out for the day, that fell on me.
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:15.360
And that's my mistake.
01:08:15.519 --> 01:08:26.479
And so having both this, you're splitting your day between managing and then also doing, it's a very, very hard place to be, I think, as a founder.
01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:44.159
And I think people romanticize, like we were saying, the high growth of it all, but you kind of end up spinning your wheel so much because you're like, I'm gonna put out all these fires and I'm going to respond to all these people that need things from me, but then they don't ever end up actually doing the deep work that I think actually pr propels the company like even more for that growth.
01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:46.399
And then you kind of feel like you haven't done anything all day.
01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:58.720
Is the moral of the story for you just like if you were to tell, I don't know, Sabrina 10 years ago or another person who's about to start, is the moral of the story just like leave it all on the floor, like on the core?
01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:00.880
Like, is is that the advice?
01:09:01.039 --> 01:09:02.640
Just like, it's a lot, but just do it.
01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:03.600
Yeah, I think so.
01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:07.279
I also think it's it's like there's so many different ways to be successful.
01:09:07.439 --> 01:09:07.760
I think.
01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:12.479
If we were launching at a different retailer with a bunch of SKUs, I would say don't take VC money.
01:09:12.560 --> 01:09:15.439
I have friends who they're doing$20 million a year.
01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:22.720
They have no VC money, they've been profitable since day one, boots dropped, they're in Greece right now, vibing on their laptop and love their lives, right?
01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:26.079
Whereas, like I just explained, my life is a little more hectic than that.
01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:31.760
And so, like I think you alluded to earlier, like I don't think that VC is like the end all be all.
01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:37.199
And if anything, it creates sometimes more problems because there's higher expectations than it's just you as the business owner.
01:09:37.359 --> 01:09:45.039
And so I think what I would say to that person starting a new brand or me 10 years ago is there is no formula, right?
01:09:45.119 --> 01:09:53.199
Like, there's no perfect way of you building a business, growing a business, scaling a business, or even be happy or feeling achievement with what you've done.
01:09:53.359 --> 01:10:01.359
I was saying this the other day to someone, like, I graduated medical school, and then I went immediately to thinking about a target launch and I forgot to remember that I was a doctor.
01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:03.840
Someone said it to me the other day, like, oh hey, like Dr.
01:10:03.920 --> 01:10:06.399
Sabrina Snake and I was like, Hello, that's me?
01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:06.800
What?
01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:07.600
What are you talking about?
01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:20.479
And I think so many times, the and this is a cliche, obviously, obviously, but it's like so many times in like the entrepreneurial journey, you just look for like what's next, and like, oh, I'm not hitting this goal, or I'm not doing this, or I should have VC money, or I should be in a retailer.
01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:22.960
And it's there's no perfect way to do it.
01:10:23.119 --> 01:10:28.159
As long as you just like what you're doing and you're able to do that every day, I think that's what will make you successful.
01:10:28.239 --> 01:10:32.159
It's that consistency of being able to like rinse and repeat what you're doing every day, basically.
01:10:32.399 --> 01:10:34.720
And if something's working, follow it.
01:10:34.880 --> 01:10:35.199
Right.
01:10:35.279 --> 01:10:43.680
Like, I think that's the other thing is when I had first started thinking about 4am, I had on a mood board like, I want to be in this retailer and I want to be here.
01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:46.880
And in five years, I want to do this, and then this is when we're gonna exit.
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:48.399
And none of that has happened.
01:10:48.560 --> 01:10:52.239
And we're in a totally different place than we were when we first started the brand.
01:10:52.399 --> 01:11:04.000
But not being too precious with the brand and just moving towards what's working, I think also is something that I would have told or will tell many founders that are trying to start their journey now.
01:11:04.079 --> 01:11:08.319
It's just throw a spaghetti at the wall and then run, sprint towards what works.
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:08.880
Okay.
01:11:09.119 --> 01:11:13.279
So just to wrap this up, some rapid fire questions, which I love to ask people.
01:11:13.520 --> 01:11:17.520
First is favorite brand right now, not 4 AM.
01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:19.680
I should have actually looked at these questions before.
01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:21.199
It keeps me on your toes.
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:22.239
It keeps me on my toes.
01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:24.560
Uh, favorite brand right now, not 4 AM.
01:11:24.800 --> 01:11:26.560
I would say vacation sunscreen.
01:11:26.800 --> 01:11:30.079
I think they have a masterclass in brand building.
01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:31.600
Now their fellow target brand.
01:11:31.760 --> 01:11:39.920
Because if you think about it, not every one of their consumers is a 70s, 80s nostalgic Floridian that's on the beach.
01:11:40.239 --> 01:11:40.960
I use their sunscreen.
01:11:41.119 --> 01:11:41.680
Yes, by the way.
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:42.319
And I'm not that.
01:11:42.560 --> 01:11:46.239
But I think it's this message that life can be a vacation.
01:11:46.319 --> 01:11:52.720
Like everyone can be feel like they're on vacation and they're bottling this feeling of a vacation.
01:11:52.800 --> 01:11:57.199
And that's very much what we try to do with 4AM too, is like, you know, wrap in a wipe that life's a party.
01:11:57.600 --> 01:12:01.520
Hot take, but for vacation, the reason I use it, I I love the smell.
01:12:01.840 --> 01:12:02.239
Exactly.
01:12:02.319 --> 01:12:02.640
Yeah.
01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:03.920
It it transports you.
01:12:04.159 --> 01:12:05.760
It's literally the best-selling sunscreen.
01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:06.720
Like my wife always says it.
01:12:06.880 --> 01:12:09.119
She's just like, I love this smell.
01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:10.079
It smells very good.
01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:10.720
Okay.
01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:16.960
Favorite founder or operator to learn from, regardless if you know them in person, but someone you learn from.
01:12:17.199 --> 01:12:17.439
Yeah.
01:12:17.600 --> 01:12:24.399
So our first investor in 4am ever, fall of 2023, is Kevin Lee from Emmy Ramen.
01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:29.359
He has been such a light for us in 4am.
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:35.680
He gave us our first$5,000 check because he said, I believe in you guys as founders, not even in the brand.
01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:38.960
I mean, I hope, Kevin, I hope you believe in the brand, but he believed in us as founders.
01:12:39.039 --> 01:12:49.119
And just over and over again, the way that he gives advice, not only to us, but even on his Twitter, it's a great read as well of how he thinks about growing brand and just being a good human.
01:12:49.279 --> 01:12:54.159
I really respect how he operates and we have learned a lot from him over the years.
01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:59.680
Favorite software tool that you just like straight up can't live without?
01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:10.319
From an actual like brand perspective, we use this app called Archive that I really like, which basically banks stories and social media posts.
01:13:10.479 --> 01:13:14.239
So because I would say I miss a bunch of the mentions from 4am.
01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:20.399
So then on a weekly basis, I can go in and see who tagged us and try to get usage rights for things like that.
01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:24.960
The other one is I actually, my my AI of choice is Gemini.
01:13:25.279 --> 01:13:25.840
Hot take.
01:13:26.079 --> 01:13:26.640
Hot take.
01:13:26.800 --> 01:13:27.279
Hot take.
01:13:27.359 --> 01:13:27.520
Yeah.
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:27.920
I know.
01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:29.600
And it's because I like their image model.
01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:33.119
And it's because I am a brand builder.
01:13:33.359 --> 01:13:38.560
I like to test like certain packaging iterations and things like that very quickly on Gemini.
01:13:38.800 --> 01:13:48.960
And it helps me to, instead of having to build it on like Adobe for hours, I can just do it in like 30 seconds on Gemini and say, okay, if I like how this looks, I'll then go build it on Adobe and things like that.
01:13:49.359 --> 01:13:52.960
Most overrated and most underrated founder habit?
01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:59.439
I think the most overrated founder habit is like lack of sleep and you have to grind and not take care of yourself.
01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:03.840
I think that unfortunately all founders will slip into the bad habit.
01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:15.039
But I notice like by far when I'm doing my best work for 4 a.m., it's when I'm sleeping, I'm seeing my friends, I'm getting the occasional Aperol spritz like with them at 5 p.m.
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:20.159
and sometimes playing hooky and really taking care of myself because I think that feeds back.
01:14:20.239 --> 01:14:23.600
And there's such this glorified culture of like, I gotta be up at 5 a.m.
01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:25.119
and cold plunge and do everything.
01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:29.359
And that's when I feel probably the worst, or when I'm sitting at my desk for too long.
01:14:29.520 --> 01:14:32.960
I think that's probably the worst habit, or the most overrated.
01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:35.039
It's the gr there's the grind hard one.
01:14:35.199 --> 01:14:42.720
The most underrated habit, I mean I guess that's both an overrated and underrated one, but the most underrated habit is get out of your environment.
01:14:42.960 --> 01:14:49.520
Everyone should try to get out of their environment in some way, even if it's just literally taking a walk around the block outside the office.
01:14:49.840 --> 01:14:50.800
Last one, I guess.
01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:53.039
And there's so many about them like filtering them.
01:14:53.279 --> 01:14:58.800
Uh last one, what's something you know now that you wish you knew when you were first getting started?
01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:04.319
I guess someone could clip this and say, of course they're gonna say that because it's worked out for them, but that it will all work out.
01:15:04.479 --> 01:15:07.359
And by the way, I still don't feel like it's worked out yet, right?
01:15:07.439 --> 01:15:10.079
Like you're still looking at, okay, what does your two-in target look like?
01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:11.039
What's the next retailer?
01:15:11.119 --> 01:15:11.920
Where's the exit?
01:15:12.079 --> 01:15:17.840
But I think knowing that it will work out, maybe not in the way that you think it will, but that it will work out somehow.
01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:24.880
And I think I'd always said to myself, oh, the only time that you can fail is when you give up.
01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:31.600
But having that true belief in that, I think is what I would say I know now, truly and really.
01:15:31.920 --> 01:15:39.840
I mean, as someone who's known you a decent amount of time now, five or six years, I can honestly say that I've seen this journey.
01:15:40.079 --> 01:15:42.560
Like some in person, some on just social media.
01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:48.560
And like what stands out to me is you work, you and Jade both work your ass off.
01:15:48.720 --> 01:16:03.039
And um, yes, it looks like it happened so easily, and like you all these things happen so fast, and swimming with the tide, we spoke about that, but at the same time, none of that happened without like incredible hard and deep work.
01:16:03.439 --> 01:16:05.279
And it's so cool to see.
01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:07.039
And so I'm super proud of you.
01:16:07.439 --> 01:16:09.119
And um thank you for coming on.
01:16:09.359 --> 01:16:11.439
Oh, wait, I actually thought of a better underrated thing.
01:16:12.079 --> 01:16:12.880
Can I think can I say it?
01:16:13.119 --> 01:16:13.439
Of course.
01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:15.359
I I this is actually better for overrated.
01:16:15.520 --> 01:16:21.279
I think the overrated thing is telling a founder to like quit their job and go all in on their company too fast.
01:16:21.520 --> 01:16:23.680
Because so many people glorify entrepreneurship.
01:16:23.760 --> 01:16:35.359
And I think actually being able to kind of start something, not on someone else's time and dime, but figuring out a way of starting something while you're still doing something else.
01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:42.720
Like for Jade, for example, she was at a growth marketing agency, went down to part-time, basically, where she had Mondays and Fridays at 4 a.m.
01:16:42.880 --> 01:16:44.159
time, and I was in medical school.
01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:50.640
And for me at least, I think the one amazing thing was I have so much knowledge and background of what like actually a consumer wants, right?
01:16:50.720 --> 01:16:57.279
I think another reason for the wipes was I would see in hospitals like people who had surgery, they literally could not wash their faces and would use wipes all the time.
01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:07.680
And so having the real lived experience of that and being in a different field that then allows you to inform more of like what your business actually is while not being in this like silo every day.
01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:13.199
But spending more time doing something else before you then transition to being full-time.
01:17:13.279 --> 01:17:16.159
I think you should be full-time when you literally cannot do both anymore.
01:17:16.239 --> 01:17:22.960
And if anything were testaments of it, I was in medical school and it's a pretty much a full-time and a half job, and you can still do it, you know?
01:17:23.359 --> 01:17:23.920
Completely read.
01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:24.079
Yeah.
01:17:24.399 --> 01:17:27.439
I think the risk is so great to not have some backstop.
01:17:27.760 --> 01:17:27.920
Exactly.
01:17:28.479 --> 01:17:29.119
You still gotta pay your rent.
01:17:29.279 --> 01:17:30.159
Yeah, you still gotta pay your rent.
01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:31.520
Especially if you live in New York.
01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:33.760
I mean, it's like ungodly expensive city.
01:17:34.079 --> 01:17:34.880
Correct, correct.
01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:40.239
And not then also doing the things that might be the faster lover, right?
01:17:40.399 --> 01:17:44.720
Just to like, like you said, just the get rich quick, or like, hey, I have to go viral all the time.
01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:47.520
So I'm doing some things that may not be true to myself and the brand.
01:17:47.680 --> 01:18:04.800
I think because we had our other backstop, like you were saying, we were able to build slower, more profitably, and actually understand what it was like to build and grow a business before we got to this point now where you can put, you know, your foot on the gas and light it on fire.
01:18:04.880 --> 01:18:06.000
But yeah, that was my overrating.
01:18:06.159 --> 01:18:07.039
Well, I'm so glad we got this in.
01:18:07.199 --> 01:18:08.000
Oh my gosh, me too.
01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:09.039
Catch up on camera.
01:18:09.199 --> 01:18:09.359
I know.
01:18:09.439 --> 01:18:09.840
It's so good.
01:18:11.439 --> 01:18:12.319
I love it.